OOTS #674 - The Discussion Thread

[The Giant]

New comic is up.

[Tenek]

I'd like to be the first to admit not seeing Blackwing in 673. :(

[chiasaur11]

Big bird:

Great familiar, or the greatest familiar?

[Hann]

Poor V. When you're not evil, you're crazy.

[The Neoclassic]

I do hope that this isn't the first of many instances where the Order is patronizing/dismissive towards V... Which could lead to V eventually turning against them, given his shaky alignment status. :smallfrown:

[Mauve Shirt]

:smallannoyed: That's annoying of them. Poor unappreciated Blackwing.

[Zanaril]

Wait... why did Belkar think V called him a cutie?

I know "acuity" is easy to miss-hear, but why would belkar even consider that that was what V said?

[FeAnPi]

I love that raven. Really.

[Bowen Arrow]

It's great that V has changed . . . but also hasn't.

[AlterForm]

So nice to have the group back together. :smallbiggrin:

[Teatime]

Loved Roy's comment in the first panel. #673 was alright, but this one was back to lol status. Hooray!

[Mando Knight]

Question: Are they teasing V, or do they honestly think V's gone loco?

[Belkster11]

I'm surprised at Haley. She did name the raven Blackwing before.

I think they're teasing V more than thinking she's gone crazy.

[Murrough]

Funny one :smallbiggrin:
Well done, giant, and nice to have this wonderful comic back!

[Silakka]

Nice to see V is still his same old self in the inside. Great comic!

[Dark Faun]

Poor V. It felt forced, though.


Wait... why did Belkar think V called him a cutie?

I know "acuity" is easy to miss-hear, but why would belkar even consider that that was what V said?
Because no man or woman can resist his charm. :smallwink:

[Killer Angel]

LOL
I love Elan's familiar... :smallbiggrin:

Edit: I still don't know if the character development, is major for V. or for Blackwing... :smalltongue:

[Zanaril]

Because no man or woman can resist his charm. :smallwink:

Maybe it's foreshadowing! :smallamused:

[Omergideon]

I'm half tempted to think that Belkar is teasing (he is a bastard after all), but the rest seem to earnest. Even Haley, who named Blackwing. A funny strip all told, but not my preferred brand of humour. Though V's final words were an awesome punchline. Though I don't actually remember Roy being around when V used his Familiar before.

Good comic, sets things in motion. And nicely covers introducing Blackwing to the party as a whole in a funny way.

[Darkroot]

Can we rename Blackwing to Gazoo? Please?

[Winterwind]

Wait... why did Belkar think V called him a cutie?

I know "acuity" is easy to miss-hear, but why would belkar even consider that that was what V said?Presumably, because his intellectual capacities and vocabulary are of but limited capacities. :smalltongue:



Now, why would Haley not remember Blackwing? Might getting so close to the rift have had some effect on how firmly Blackwing is rooted in this reality, erasing the others' memories of him, or any such thing? :smallconfused:

[Belkster11]

:haley: Where was the raven when you were turned into a lizard?

Ah...good memories. :)

EDIT: I'm not sure. I don't really know much about familiars being affected by reality-bending portals like the Snarl's prison. :/

[Threndsa]

Good to see V hasn't changed completely. Things just wouldn't be the same without comments like that.

Belkar probably heard V correctly but just like when he knew it was Roy when he put the belt of M/F on he does things like that to get a rise out of people. Or is still trying for some offhand comment to prove V's gender.

[oxinabox]

Nice.
However they did the ultimate stupididty.
they broke the party op.
Never Split Up the Party
theyre all goign to die, clearly, jk

[kabbes]

I have to say that I don't really "get" it. They clearly have noticed Blackwing before -- as mentioned, Haley even named him. And besides, why would they not believe V, given the abilities and knowledge that he has, that clearly transcend their own?

First comic I've read out of all 674 of them that messes with the verisimilitude of the story, to be honest.

[Belkster11]

I have to say that I don't really "get" it. They clearly have noticed Blackwing before -- as mentioned, Haley even named him. And besides, why would they not believe V, given the abilities and knowledge that he has, that clearly transcend their own?

First comic I've read out of all 674 of them that messes with the verisimilitude of the story, to be honest.

They're just joking with her. Before, it was SHE that ignored Blackwing and the others acknowledged the bird. Now, the table has turned.

[Kurald Galain]

:mitd: Raven? What raven?

[kabbes]

They're just joking with her. Before, it was SHE that ignored Blackwing and the others acknowledged the bird. Now, the table has turned.Maybe, but it doesn't come across as a joke. Durkon even makes what appears to be a sotto voce comment.

[Tenek]

:mitd: Raven? What raven?

It's next to the gate, perhaps.

[Robert Paulson]

Elan's illusion FTW! :D

[B.I.T.T.]

Good comic. I laughed.

P.S.: First post on a new page....groovy.

[RMS Oceanic]

I think it's been so long since they last saw Blackwing, nearly 400 strips and several in-comic months now, that they really did forget.

Eh, I'm sure it's just a one off joke, or a minor running gag until Blackwing does something awesome. I like the confirmation that he's here to stay.

[Kroy]

Robert Paulson couldn't be more right.

[Bianco]

Wait... why did Belkar think V called him a cutie?

I know "acuity" is easy to miss-hear, but why would belkar even consider that that was what V said?
Might have something to do with this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0335.html). :smallwink:

Also, this isn't LOL, this is ROFL. I'm pretty sure they're just teasing her, perhaps we get confirmation in the next strip (after all, we often do when things get confusing).

[Forrestfire]

Whoo! A new OotS!

...Heh. "Quickly, please. Before they are out of range.":smallbiggrin:

[oxinabox]

I have to say that I don't really "get" it. They clearly have noticed Blackwing before -- as mentioned, Haley even named him. And besides, why would they not believe V, given the abilities and knowledge that he has, that clearly transcend their own?

First comic I've read out of all 674 of them that messes with the verisimilitude of the story, to be honest.

Players often forget things that happened.
in one ofd my game the party has (twice!) forgotten that we were dong a quest.
once we actaully forgot enough that we left the plane, and started the next quest.

[Demonicbunny]

Do it V! Do it!

There is no jury in the world (filled with wizards of course, being judged by his peers and all that :smallbiggrin:) that wouldn't dismiss it as justifiable homocide.

[Zolkabro]

It would be hilarious if Elan starts calling Blackwing "Big Birdie."
I also liked Roys comment in the first panel. And V's in the last panel, but Roy's was funnier.

[kabbes]

There's no way that they are joking about not remembering Blackwing. It's too spontaneous and the expressions are drawn too "genuinely". The giant would give some kind of visual clue if it was intended to be taken as a joke. Either that or he has suddenly radically changed his art style after 673 comics.

[Dark Faun]

I'm not an expert on pronouns, but shouldn't Belkar say "Please tell me you haven't cracked and started using the royal first person?"

[kabbes]

Players often forget things that happened.
in one ofd my game the party has (twice!) forgotten that we were dong a quest.
once we actaully forgot enough that we left the plane, and started the next quest.
These aren't players in a game though -- that's well established. These are real people who happen to be living in a universe that operates under an unspecificed (but assumed to be D&D) RPG set of "scientific" principles.

It doesn't seem likely given what we know of Roy in particular, but also Haley and Durkon, that they would not only forget V's familiar but also treat him as crazy when he tells them that he has a familiar.

[RMS Oceanic]

There's no way that they are joking about not remembering Blackwing. It's too spontaneous and the expressions are drawn too "genuinely". The giant would give some kind of visual clue if it was intended to be taken as a joke. Either that or he has suddenly radically changed his art style after 673 comics.

It seems that way. Like I said, it won't get much coverage right away, but it may become a running joke until Blackwing does something either really awesome to save them, or that just proves his existance.

[KindaChang]

Big bird:

Great familiar, or the greatest familiar?

I can think of no familiar more fitting for Elan, except possibly Grover.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm not an expert on pronouns, but shouldn't Belkar say "Please tell me you haven't cracked and started using the royal first person?"

Congratulations, you've just proven that you're smarter than Belkar :smalltongue:

[kabbes]

I'm not an expert on pronouns, but shouldn't Belkar say "Please tell me you haven't cracked and started using the royal first person?"
To be fair, I'm guessing that Belkar's grasp on grammar is roughly akin to his grasp on Italian literature. In a world with no Italy.

[Dark Faun]

I'm not sure. Did he ever make a grammatical mistake in the comic? :smallconfused:

[Wender]

As the raven says in the last panel, karma wasn't quite done humbling V.

I suspect that things will only get better for V from here, unless a setback makes for a good enough punchline.

[FinalJustice]

"I require a remainder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities"

Pure. Gold. Thanks Rich (and thanks V.).

[kabbes]

I'm not sure. Did he ever make a grammatical mistake in the comic? :smallconfused:

Yep. He just confused the third person with the first person.

[Yiuel]

V just returned as my favorite character.

[SteveMB]

"I require a remainder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities"

You mean it isn't? :smallconfused:

[Needle]

Man, this was hilarious, I laughed almost at every panel xD

[Swordguy]

Presumably, because his intellectual capacities and vocabulary are of but limited capacities. :smalltongue:



Now, why would Haley not remember Blackwing? Might getting so close to the rift have had some effect on how firmly Blackwing is rooted in this reality, erasing the others' memories of him, or any such thing? :smallconfused:

Possibly.

Or, y'know...she (and they) could have just forgotten. The last time the whole party saw the bird was when they were scouting the sorceresses camp back in the mid-100's. And I don't think Roy was there for that, either. I mean, it's not like they've been adventuring for over a year since then, and getting into wacky scrapes and hijinks that might stick in their mind slightly more than V's bird, right?

Occam's Razor and all that.

[Croverus]

Glad to see this updated while I was on again. Makes my wednesday here at work that much easier. And also is a nice breaking from updating my Hombrew campaign.

[warmachine]

I forget about my PC's familiar too.


I wonder if Belkar's grammar error is the author's mistake or Belkar's?

[Rad]

I REALLY laughed!
I think I love the new V... I am a bit disappointed in the others though; Haley's behavior felt especially weird and in need of some suspension of disbelief for the sake of the joke. Too bad :(

[Laketh Stadt]

Absolutely hilarious!

The raven set V up. The rest of the party was acting so BW could get the last dig in. At least thats my take on it.

[zql]

:haley: Where was the raven when you were turned into a lizard?


look at kaytara's signature :smallbiggrin:

[Zanaril]

look at kaytara's signature :smallbiggrin:
I wrote fanfic!

I think the party are just being their usual forgetful selves. They all have their individual flaws, but failed spot checks are common to all of them.

[waterpenguin43]

Poor Blackwing.

[Ganurath]

Big bird:

Great familiar, or the greatest familiar?Great familiar, at least in this case. A better one for this strip would have been Snuffleupagus.

[Snake-Aes]

New comic is up.

Did you just call me a cutie?
Look, I have a familiar!


Alas, poor V.

[Yoyoyo]

Funny. Like that everyone is back together again and goofing on each other.

[HOLEkevin]

Man! I want an illusory familiar too!

[Zanaril]

Man! I want an illusory familiar too!

I already have one!

Although - like V - I find other people can't see him. :smallfrown:

[Watcher]

"Royal Third Person" refers to "We" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We)

...

It's funny and annoying at the same time!

[Winterwind]

Possibly.

Or, y'know...she (and they) could have just forgotten. The last time the whole party saw the bird was when they were scouting the sorceresses camp back in the mid-100's. And I don't think Roy was there for that, either. I mean, it's not like they've been adventuring for over a year since then, and getting into wacky scrapes and hijinks that might stick in their mind slightly more than V's bird, right?

Occam's Razor and all that.Doesn't seem like something a person actually living in their world and living their lives would forget. I'd find it surprising if even one of them had forgotten it ever since (people who never knew about the familiar are a different matter, of course). But all of them collectively forgetting it? C'mon, if you are bringing Occam's Razor into this, this is one of the first explanations killed by it.

[Silverraptor]

:vaarsuvius:: "I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. Quickly please, before they are out of range."

I love this quote!:smallbiggrin:

[the_tick_rules]

They don't remember him from the bandit arc?

[Athaniar]

A new comic for my birthday, just as I wished! And a good one at that (aren't they all?). Poor V and Nefa... Blackwing. Either the Order has a very short attention span, or they are just teasing V. Probably both.

[Porthos]

Man, some people are taking this update waaaaaaaaaay too freakin' seriously (and I knew they would, as I was reading it). :smallsmile:

This. Was. A. Joke.

Now I know that explaining the joke ruins it and all, but the ironic joke was that once V accepted the existence of his familiar, everyone else forgot about it. Think Harvey, if one must.

Now it could be subtle commentary about players forgetting about previous "in-character" knowledge (and despite what another poster said, the line between player and PC has been blurred for the sake of jokes before in this strip). Or it could even be subtle commentary about "The Boy Who Cried Wolf".

But mostly was just a one-off humorous joke (which may or may not lead to a running gag) that isn't supposed to be deeply analyzed. This comic did use to make them all the time, you know. :smallwink:

[David Argall]

Alternatives...
It's a joke by the other party members on V. Very unlikely. It would have to be a very well done joke by several people, most of whom are distinctly poor at such things.
It's just a joke, and has nothing to actually do with the story. Seems doubtful. Our writer has definitely done a number of jokes that challenge the basic idea of the story, such as those saying the characters are simply actors rather than living the story. But this seems a rather elaborate joke that is not really worth the effort if it has no continuation.
It is foreshadowing. There is something strange that has happened to Blackwing, presumably from the rift, that makes him hard to notice or remember. This will come into play some time in the next few hundred strips, likely a lot sooner.
Notable here is that Roy, who prides himself on brainpower, sees the raven, but Belkar, whose grey matter is distinctly limited, does not. The others seem to show no definite sign, but also may be having problems actually noticing the familiar.

Unlike the kids in the last strip, we may not know for sure for quite some time, but this may be more than a gag, or even a running gag.

[Swordguy]

Doesn't seem like something a person actually living in their world and living their lives would forget. I'd find it surprising if even one of them had forgotten it ever since (people who never knew about the familiar are a different matter, of course). But all of them collectively forgetting it? C'mon, if you are bringing Occam's Razor into this, this is one of the first explanations killed by it.

Haley and Belkar have seen the bird twice (comic #3 and 154). And in Roy's case, I don't think he's seen Blackwing even once. Heck, V even forgot he had a familiar at one point. I don't see it as unlikely at all.

[The Recreator]

After this comic, I had to double-check the archives to make sure Blackwing was still there. The Giant's done that sort (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html) of thing before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootscast.html), too.

…

Please tell me I wasn't the only one.:smallredface:

[Optimystik]

Alternatives...
It's a joke by the other party members on V. Very unlikely. It would have to be a very well done joke by several people, most of whom are distinctly poor at such things.
It's just a joke, and has nothing to actually do with the story. Seems doubtful. Our writer has definitely done a number of jokes that challenge the basic idea of the story, such as those saying the characters are simply actors rather than living the story. But this seems a rather elaborate joke that is not really worth the effort if it has no continuation.
It is foreshadowing. There is something strange that has happened to Blackwing, presumably from the rift, that makes him hard to notice or remember. This will come into play some time in the next few hundred strips, likely a lot sooner.
Notable here is that Roy, who prides himself on brainpower, sees the raven, but Belkar, whose grey matter is distinctly limited, does not. The others seem to show no definite sign, but also may be having problems actually noticing the familiar.

Unlike the kids in the last strip, we may not know for sure for quite some time, but this may be more than a gag, or even a running gag.

You just filled me with a chilling sense of foreboding...

[Taekwondodo]

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha *snort* hahahahaha!
*sigh*

Actually, when they were surrounded by ninja's, near the beginning, Hayley reminded V that she had a familiar.

[Irbis]

Look, I have a familiar now, too! :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin: :smallbiggrin:

Oh, who was saying V isn't evil, again? :smallamused:

[Kaytara]

Absolutely freaking hilarious. XD All of it.

[Teddy]

Ahh, poor, poor V. :smallfrown:

Although I wonder how long it will take before Blackwing attacks someone to prove his existence (on V's command or just out of the sheer annoyance of not just being forgotten, but actually being thought of as being nonexistent).

[Herald Alberich]

I doubt they were kidding with V; as others have said, there would have been some sign of it somewhere (furtive grins, or giving the game up before the strip was over). Foreshadowing seems unlikely, but in this comic you never know. I suspect, though, that the Order was simply struck with Plot-induced amnesia for the sake of the joke. Which was a very funny joke, so it's forgivable.


"Royal Third Person" refers to "We" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We)

...

It's funny and annoying at the same time!

Yes, but "we" is a first-person plural pronoun, as that article points out. The usual terms are "the royal 'we'" and "the royal plural" (edit: Or the "majestic plural" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralis_Majestatis), apparently, though I hadn't heard that one before). I suspect "the royal plural" was what the Giant* meant to say, to avoid repeating the word "we" again.

*or Belkar, at least, though if it was deliberate and not a mistake I don't see the point.

[Zordrath]

Gods, I missed this type of comic. Just all the order members, annoying each other with their idiosyncracies/idiocy. I love it :smallbiggrin:

[Zanaril]

Although I wonder how long it will take before Blackwing attacks someone to prove his existence (on V's command or just out of the sheer annoyance of not just being forgotten, but actually being thought of being nonexistent).

And don't forget: Blackwing knows about V's deal with the fiends. Just because he non-existent doesn't mean he wasn't there. :smallamused:

If they ever do acknowledge his exsistence, he has quite a lot of important information, not just about what he saw in the rift.

[Random832]

Hmm... I went back to the strips when the lizard thing happened and apparently the raven has been edited into some of the strips around that time. Very clever, Rich.

Though seriously, does anyone still have any of the original images of those strips?

[Porthos]

I'm personally itching to start a "Was Haley morally justified when she forgot about the existence of Blackwing" thread. :smallamused:

Sadly, I want to remain a Good Little Poster. So I shant.

But I sooooooo want to right now. :smalltongue:

[Doug Lampert]

Maybe, but it doesn't come across as a joke. Durkon even makes what appears to be a sotto voce comment.

It may or may not be a joke, but that sotto voice comment is aimed at Roy, and V is BETWEEN Durkon and Roy, in fact V is the closest one to Durkon, implying that the sotto voice is actually AIMED at V rather than someone else.

Thus the sotto voice if any is actually STRONG evidence in favor of joke rather than them being serious, a fake aside intended to be heard by V makes perfect sense if part of a joke and no sense at all if they are serious.

[Rustic Dude]

Funny comic, and funny title.

[Winterwind]

Haley and Belkar have seen the bird twice (comic #3 and 154). And in Roy's case, I don't think he's seen Blackwing even once. Heck, V even forgot he had a familiar at one point. I don't see it as unlikely at all.Haley reminded V of Blackwing and came up with his name. This event alone would be nigh impossible to forget, unless Haley suffers from Alzheimer.
They have used Blackwing before, at least once one of their tactics was based on him. Do you think they would forget the entire bandit camp scene? Because just remembering it they should also remember Blackwing.
Heck, for all it's worth, the fact the bandits decided to shoot just this one bird alone should be outstanding enough to be remembered.
They know V is a wizard, and are aware of the rules sufficiently to know wizards can have familiars. They have witnessed that V has a familiar - that should have etched into their memory that for V, the Has Familiar Yes/No switch is on Yes position.

Every single one of the above reasons would make it difficult for them to forget, collectively, it's overwhelming.

I still maintain that just one of them forgetting would be contrived as heck, and all of them forgetting is utterly impossible.

Unless, of course, realism was sacrificed for comedy's sake here, by reversing V's previous obliviousness about Blackwing. I cannot say I find the joke particularly funny, much less worth sacrificing realism for, if that's the case, but I guess it would have a justification then.

[mellowgoth]

Please, please, please make the next V shirt say : "I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all life's indignities..."

[Porthos]

Unless, of course, realism was sacrificed for comedy's sake here, by reversing V's previous obliviousness about Blackwing.

It's not like this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0177.html) has never done that before. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0321.html) :smalltongue:

Besides, realism can be overrated. If we were in the middle of a plot heavy arc with DRAMA! left and right, I can see not wanting to violate the Fourth Wall causality. But at the beginning of an arc? When we are still in "Oh yeah.. This still is a humorous strip.. at least at times" mode? It's not that big of a deal. :smalltongue:

[Larocs Macalar]

Think with me, when haley named the raven, she could see. but then, the raven was taken by ten arrows up the camp if anyone remembers that. i think they r really making V chazy:smallbiggrin::smallsmile::smallamused:

[Erts]

Great and funny comic, but I do hope they are just teasing V.

Also, I thought it was a duck not Big Bird. Anyone else think that when they saw it?

[Woodsman]

I, too, thought said Big Bird was a duck.

Anyway, good comic.

[Porthos]

BTW: For people who must put character actions into nice neat boxes, just consider this update a subtle breaking of the Fourth Wall. :smallsmile: Having Haley act suddenly out of character IS the breaking of the Fourth Wall (everyone else has an excuse).

And I don't have to link to all of the examples of Fourth Wall breakage (which, by definition, breaks "reality") in this comic, now do I? :smallwink:

Now I will admit that it is possible that this is foreshadowing events. Anything's possible. And if it does, I will be the first to salute it when it happens.

But, for now, I'm just going to appreciate the funny joke. :smallsmile:

PS: Although it is hidden by a cryptogram, this isn't the first time that Haley has forgotten something about someone else. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0291.html) The whole "I thought your father was dead" being a small running gag and all. :smallwink:

[kybarsfang]

Now V will take Blackwing for granted...nevermore. :smallamused:

[DSCrankshaw]

The only time Roy might have encountered Blackwing was here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0179.html), and he gives no sign that he notices the bird. No one else seems to have noticed him that time, either. Elan's never encountered Blackwing before.

On the other hand, Haley and Belkar had several (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0003.html) opportunities (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0154.html) to see him, and Durkon even healed him once (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0155.html), so you have to chalk it up to forgetfulness.

[kierthos]

"I require a remainder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities"

Trick question (well, not really a question): Raining arcane destruction is always an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. Or boredom. Or days ending in -y.

(Hey, I play a Storm Sorceror in a 4th edition game. What did you expect me to say?)

[Larocs Macalar]

:haley: Where was the raven when you were turned into a lizard?

Ah...good memories. :)

EDIT: I'm not sure. I don't really know much about familiars being affected by reality-bending portals like the Snarl's prison. :/
Please, can anyone say me witch strip did V turned into a lizard?:smallconfused:

[Porthos]

Please, can anyone say me witch strip did V turned into a lizard?:smallconfused:

Here ya go. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0176.html) :smallsmile:

[Larocs Macalar]

thanx now i remember:smallbiggrin:

[Manachu Boy]

It's not like this comic (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0177.html) has never done that before. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0321.html) :smalltongue:

Besides, realism can be overrated. If we were in the middle of a plot heavy arc with DRAMA! left and right, I can see not wanting to violate the Fourth Wall causality. But at the beginning of an arc? When we are still in "Oh yeah.. This still is a humorous strip.. at least at times" mode? It's not that big of a deal. :smalltongue:

This. This so much it's not even funny. I swear a lot of you guys are so hung up on playing the whole 'trying to justify things logically' game that you forget that, yanno, rule of funny and rule of cool tend to trump everything in this strip. And that's cool, it makes for some entertaining train wrecks of threads. =)

But what would I know? I'm pretty much with Elan insomuch as I'd sooner see a dramatic or humourous scene than one that's the most logical. =P

[Kaytara]

Heh, I'm surprised by the serious reactions. It's a joke, guys. Not a joke by them, I mean it's a joke about the raven being forgotten by the others as soon as it was remembered by V.

Besides, him appearing at the lizard and death knight incidents is something that they may not even have noticed back then, since they sure didn't react to it. A black bird in a forest isn't exactly out-of-place enough to attract attention and be recognised as V's familiar, and nobody notices a small bird in a huge battle, anyway. (I find myself wondering why Belkar of all people would know about the death knight incident, but he may have just been close enough to see it.) So it's entirely plausible that their contact with Blackwing is really limited to that one time in the bandit camp (for which Roy and Elan weren't even around), where that contact lasted about a minute or so. Over a year filled with various hardships has passed since then, it's entirely believable that they simply forgot about that detail without having Alzheimer's or anything.

And besides THAT, it's not like the comic has never done anything that ridiculous before. The fact that Blackwing truly WAS there for all their adventures and V's neglect of him prevented THEM from noticing him is, objectively, far more unbelievable. But it's a joke on DnD players, so it's okay. :)

And does anyone else remember this exchange from one of the Dragon magazine strips? :) (paraphrased)
Roy: *gets hit by traps several times*
Haley: Gah! That trap was nasty!
R: What trap?
H: The trap that just hit you! Oh, wait, I know, only a rogue can spot such high DC traps.
R: True, but it doesn't matter since *gets hit by another trap* we haven't run into any traps.
H: Yes, we have!
R: Sorry, I'm not going to indulge your paranoid fantasies any longer. Now tell me if this next door is trapped.
H: *looks at the heavily trapped door* ...Clear.
R: I'm glad we understand each other.

Also, the party totally forgot about V!lizard and when they didn't, they referred to him as "the lizard who may or may not be Vaarsuvius" despite the fact that he was transformed right before their eyes, appeared atop a pile of V's empty clothes, dug around in a spellbook and generally didn't act much like a normal lizard.


These aren't players in a game though -- that's well established. These are real people who happen to be living in a universe that operates under an unspecificed (but assumed to be D&D) RPG set of "scientific" principles.


I think you misunderstood. They aren't players, but it's a joke about players (and in-story, it's nice irony), just like Blackwing's tendency to vanish is a joke on spellcasters forgetting their familiars.

Personally, I'm just happy V finally used Blackwing's name. :)

[munehiro]

Sucks to state this out Giant, and I understand the issue, but....

I noticed that in some cases the font is getting so small to be barely readable. I have pretty good eyes, and a decent screen, but the resolution is definitely insufficient to read some balloons comfortably.

Of course I assume that in vector graphics everything is a different story, and a higher resolution image is probably an issue for the server, but I kindly ask to consider readers with sight problems.

[Kaytara]

Please, can anyone say me witch strip did V turned into a lizard?:smallconfused:

You're the king of (presumably) unintentional puns. XD

DnD question: Isn't a familiar able to cast any Touch-ranged spell the master has memorised? :smallconfused:

[Optimystik]

DnD question: Isn't a familiar able to cast any Touch-ranged spell the master has memorised? :smallconfused:

No, you have to imbue your familiar with the specific one that you want him to deliver for you, and you can't cast another spell until he does or it dissipates. See Deliver Touch Spells (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/sorcererWizard.htm) for the details.

[internisus]

Although it is hidden by a cryptogram, this isn't the first time that Haley has forgotten something about someone else. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0291.html) The whole "I thought your father was dead" being a small running gag and all. :smallwink:

Rereading this comic has led me to notice a spelling contradiction: note Wizzie Awards versus Wizzy Awards (by the way, as an off-topic aside, I enjoy thinking that this must be a reference to the XYZZY Awards) in 291 versus 669 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html).

I also was bothered by the "royal third person" and hope to see it corrected.

Regardless, I am as entertained, compelled, and grateful for the comic as ever.

[Optimystik]

Sucks to state this out Giant, and I understand the issue, but....

I noticed that in some cases the font is getting so small to be barely readable. I have pretty good eyes, and a decent screen, but the resolution is definitely insufficient to read some balloons comfortably.

Of course I assume that in vector graphics everything is a different story, and a higher resolution image is probably an issue for the server, but I kindly ask to consider readers with sight problems.

Just zoom in on your browser. (Firefox shortcut: Ctrl and +). Problem solved! :smallsmile:

[Hamilkar]

That's why I love V. :smallsmile:

Seriously I feel sometimes the same as the poor elf. Neglected with disbelief of people who can't grasp clear formulated sentences or simply disbelieve an honest statement for no apparent reason at all, simply makes me mad. Why is raging arcane destruction not an appropriate response? Indeed!

Maybe that's why s/he is my favorite character. :smallwink:

[factotum]

I think I agree with Winterwind here, to be honest--the humour seemed forced because I just don't believe that Haley, at the least, would have forgotten about V's familiar when she named the freakin' thing! I could understand it with the others (especially Belkar, who has the attention span of a lobotomized goldfish), but having Haley deny all knowledge of the bird too just stone-cold killed my suspension of disbelief.

[Elfin]

Like it a lot. :smallcool:

[FlawedParadigm]

It probably says something about my thought process in that this presented itself to me as the most likely outcome, but here goes:

Blackwing speaks now, and the group has just been off camera for a significant amount of time. Just for fun, let me remind you that Raven is known to be an incarnation of a trickster deity. Not this raven in particular, but the thought came to me.

Blackwing could easily have spoken with each of the members of the Order and gotten them to agree to pretending to ignore him solely for the purpose of being able to deliver that last panel's line to V's conscience. It would probably do a wonderful job of making *certain* V never forgets Blackwing's presence again. An avian insurance policy, if you will.

Of course, Occam's Razor would slit my throat for this one, but given some of the strip's history, it may be unlikely, but not outside the realm of possibility.

[NorseItalian]

Well THAT came out of no where...

[ingenua]

Hmm.



Now, why would Haley not remember Blackwing? Might getting so close to the rift have had some effect on how firmly Blackwing is rooted in this reality, erasing the others' memories of him, or any such thing? :smallconfused:

Am I the only one who read this comic and went 'Oh, I get it!'

'Caw caw caw caw, caw caw caw?' 'Try gingko bilboa.' (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0331.html)

Or maybe I'm just seeing connections that aren't there ... ?

as for the consistency arguments ...

Hmm... I went back to the strips when the lizard thing happened and apparently the raven has been edited into some of the strips around that time. Very clever, Rich.

Though seriously, does anyone still have any of the original images of those strips?

For those like me who didn't get Random832's irony, yes, Blackwing was there during the lizard episode. He was even a crucial part of the plot of #178 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0178.html). Whether the others saw him that time is another matter.

As for whether there are originals of the comics back then ... probably only Rich has originals, but i suspect that at least the books on my shelf haven't changed retrospectively :smalltongue: I can't find them now to check on the details, though :smallfrown:


After this comic, I had to double-check the archives to make sure Blackwing was still there. The Giant's done that sort (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html) of thing before (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/ootscast.html), too.

…

Please tell me I wasn't the only one.:smallredface:

Well spotted, I didn't notice the change until the second time I looked at your links...

And why Roy and not Belkar or Elan can't see him now...

I think the party are just being their usual forgetful selves. They all have their individual flaws, but failed spot checks are common to all of them.
Spot checks depend on wisdom :P (Yes, I can finally claim enough DnD geekery to have gone and looked it up, although not enough to have it memorised. I can't be the only one, though.)

[Mr. Pin]

Nice comic. and a quick update! :smallbiggrin:

I hope she does rain arcane destruction...

[chionophile]

I also was bothered by the "royal third person" and hope to see it corrected.

Regardless, I am as entertained, compelled, and grateful for the comic as ever.

"Royal third person" is correct as well (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majestic_plural). V may not be the head of a plurality that the third person would represent, but that's kind of the point.


In pluralis maiestatis a speaker refers to him or her self in other than the first person and may be implicitly using the third person plural for the plurality they represent.

It's fine the way it is.

[shadzar]

:smalleek: V has a familiar? Next thing people will try to convince me Hailey used to have long hair...yeah right!

It must be the Spellplague!

:smallbiggrin: Nice to see V getting that karma going heading into the next sub-plot.

[kabbes]

"Royal Third Person" refers to "We" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We)


No, as stated already, there is no such thing as the "royal third person". The first person is me and us, the second is you (singlular or plural) and the third person is him, her and them. "We", being what Lizzie supposedly says, is the "royal first person".

[The_Weirdo]

Alternatives...
It's a joke by the other party members on V. Very unlikely. It would have to be a very well done joke by several people, most of whom are distinctly poor at such things.
It's just a joke, and has nothing to actually do with the story. Seems doubtful. Our writer has definitely done a number of jokes that challenge the basic idea of the story, such as those saying the characters are simply actors rather than living the story. But this seems a rather elaborate joke that is not really worth the effort if it has no continuation.
It is foreshadowing. There is something strange that has happened to Blackwing, presumably from the rift, that makes him hard to notice or remember. This will come into play some time in the next few hundred strips, likely a lot sooner.
Notable here is that Roy, who prides himself on brainpower, sees the raven, but Belkar, whose grey matter is distinctly limited, does not. The others seem to show no definite sign, but also may be having problems actually noticing the familiar.

Unlike the kids in the last strip, we may not know for sure for quite some time, but this may be more than a gag, or even a running gag.

*Watches as a tree falls to the floor writhing in a seizure*

[Thrax]

I have not laughed so hard while reading OotS since quite long. One of the best strips I have ever read.
Also, good to know Rich is back in power and we're back in normal schedule.

[kabbes]

It may or may not be a joke, but that sotto voice comment is aimed at Roy, and V is BETWEEN Durkon and Roy, in fact V is the closest one to Durkon, implying that the sotto voice is actually AIMED at V rather than someone else.

Thus the sotto voice if any is actually STRONG evidence in favor of joke rather than them being serious, a fake aside intended to be heard by V makes perfect sense if part of a joke and no sense at all if they are serious.I had it right first time with "sotto voce", actually -- no need for you to change it to "sotto voice". And I was referring to the penultimate panel.

[Freelance Henchman]

Very good. I think Blackwing is a great "addition" to the OOTS and a much needed friend for Varsuuvius.

[badam104172]

good comic.
but more important, only one day in three without a new comic! if this schedule continues, it would be awesome.

[kabbes]

"Royal third person" is correct as well (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Majestic_plural). V may not be the head of a plurality that the third person would represent, but that's kind of the point.



It's fine the way it is.Nowhere in your link does it say that there is such a thing as the "royal third person". That's because "we" is FIRST person, not THIRD person. Third person is either he/him, she/her or they/them (depending on whether you are using the accusative).

[kabbes]

As regards the comic itself: of course it's a joke comic. I just think that for the first time in 674 comics, this one misses. It's not a good joke, because it relies on completely abandoning what we know about the characters and making them act in a way that it totally at odds with the way that they would normally act. Hence verisimilitude is shot to bits and we are left scratching our heads.

There is nothing wrong with a suspension of disbelief, but killing your own internal logic is never a good idea.

Unless the conspiracy theories about the rift are right of course. Then I'd take it all back.

[chionophile]

Nowhere in your link does it say that there is such a thing as the "royal third person". That's because "we" is FIRST person, not THIRD person. Third person is either he/him, she/her or they/them (depending on whether you are using the accusative).

Did you see the part I quoted from the article? Here, I'll do it again:


In pluralis maiestatis a speaker refers to him or her self in other than the first person and may be implicitly using the third person plural for the plurality they represent.

[Kaytara]

Ugh, now we're arguing about grammar instead of rules or alignment? XD


Personally I'm really hoping for some V-Belkar comedy in the near future. :) After all, V really should have learned the lesson the first time about what happens (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0316.html) when one calls Belkar a cutie (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html). :smallwink:

You know... the second panel keeps cracking me up. XD

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y120/kaytara/borgv.png

[pasko77]

Can anyone explain me the reference in the title?
I can't get it.

Also... i admit i did not like this comic. At least Haley should remember the raven she herself named.

[kabbes]

Did you see the part I quoted from the article? Here, I'll do it again:I don't think you actually understand what that means. It simply means that a third party is being included within the first party pronoun, to make it a plural. "We" remains and will always remain the first person plural, because it includes "me".

[Zanaril]

Can anyone explain me the reference in the title?
I can't get it.

Also... i admit i did not like this comic. At least Haley should remember the raven she herself named.

Reference to "The Boy Who Cried Wolf".

[Zordrath]

Ugh, now we're arguing about grammar instead of rules or alignment? XD


Personally I'm really hoping for some V-Belkar comedy in the near future. :) After all, V really should have learned the lesson the first time about what happens (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0316.html) when one calls Belkar a cutie (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0285.html). :smallwink:

You know... the second panel keeps cracking me up. XD
You're one obsessed V fanatic... :smalltongue: Nice picture, very creepy... probably exactly what Roy saw in that moment :smallbiggrin:

And yes, more V-Belkar comedy is exactly what I'm hoping for as well. Those were always comedy highlights of the strips, and their absence was one of the things that significantly decreased my enjoyment of the previous arc.

[Zanaril]

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y120/kaytara/borgv.png
All I can do is stare at the alternating :) and >:) on V's cloak, and laugh.

[pasko77]

Reference to "The Boy Who Cried Wolf".

Damn, so obvious! :)
Thanks, translating popular sayings isn't easy.

[internisus]

In pluralis maiestatis a speaker refers to him or her self in other than the first person and may be implicitly using the third person plural for the plurality they represent.

That is technically correct, I suppose, but it makes little sense from an outsider's perspective. The third-person is implicit to the individual employing the royal plural because the included divinity or station is separate from the self, but his/her/(their) audience grammatically experiences this expression as a group and would not perceive the distinction in the same way. That's the point of the form, after all.

If a queen describes herself as "We", from her point of view, she intends her own individuality (first-person) to be recognized as combined with the authority of her position and/or divine influence (third-person). From her perspective, she is implicitly bundling third parties into herself. The point of doing so, then, is to create the image for whomever receives such speech that her first-person and these abstract third parties are one and the same such that she is more than a person—more than one person. The implicit third-person aspect of the royal expression is the farthest thing from a natural understanding for the audience. If a servant receiving the queen's decree perceived the difference between the queen as person and the non-queen aspects of her "we," the royal plural would be a failure.

This extends to Belkar's perspective because he is the hypothetical audience for Vaarsuvius's royal first-person plural.

[Tola]

:mitd: Raven? What raven?

Interesting. It touched the power of the Snarl, and now perception of it is...off. I think this MEANS something.

[General Valter]

Ho ho!

V begins her descent into madness.

If things continue like this, she's going to turn into Another Black Mage (http://www.nuklearpower.com/)!

[Dark Faun]

Please. V has so much more class than Black Mage.

[General Valter]

I dunno, that comment in the last panel was remarkably sinister...

[baerdith]

I can think of no familiar more fitting for Elan, except possibly Grover.


I Soooooo wish that Giant would give Elan the "Obtain familiar" feat.

At 13th level Elan's familiar would be smarter than him!!! :smallbiggrin:

[Carnivorous M.]

Maybe if I show my friends and family this comic, they'll believe in Trouncer...

[multilis]

I have to say that I don't really "get" it. They clearly have noticed Blackwing before -- as mentioned, Haley even named him.
I think it is due to some sort of "memory charm", similar to what Oracle uses, which makes it a "dun dun dun" moment. Does O-Chul remember?

But of course it could also be a joke on V (one starts joke and they all manage straight face and continue it).

[David Argall]

I just think that for the first time in 674 comics, this one misses. It's not a good joke, because it relies on completely abandoning what we know about the characters and making them act in a way that it totally at odds with the way that they would normally act. Hence verisimilitude is shot to bits and we are left scratching our heads.

Which is the sort of reason we have for thinking it is more than just a joke. Our writer has missed before, tho fortunately not that often, but it certainly seem reasonable that there is more to come.

[Cleverdan22]

Heh. Great comic, good to see the Order interacting in their much missed zany way.

[Watcher]

The only time Roy might have encountered Blackwing was here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0179.html), and he gives no sign that he notices the bird. No one else seems to have noticed him that time, either. Elan's never encountered Blackwing before.

Here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0173.html):

:elan:: I kinda figured they [the horses] just vanished when you didn't need them, kind of like V's familiar.
:roy:: Don't be silly. That would be completely unrealistic.

[Mojique]

Belkar's "Did you just call me a cutie" was good, but "Big Bird" as Elan's familiar is... great. :smallbiggrin:

[Zanaril]

On a related note, does anyone think V and Haley's friendship seems to have suffered a blow recently? :smallconfused:

[Dark Faun]

Well, let's just say that if I hadn't read the entire comic, I'd never have guessed they were more than colleagues.

[Kaytara]

On a related note, does anyone think V and Haley's friendship seems to have suffered a blow recently? :smallconfused:

Well, Haley does have zero idea about anything V went through since Azure City. Plus, she's kind of all about Elan right now. I think V and Durkon are probably closer to each other now.


Well, let's just say that if I hadn't read the entire comic, I'd never have guessed they were more than colleagues.

...But that's not entirely fair because, from this comic alone, the same could be said of Roy and Durkon or Haley and Elan.

[Optimystik]

On a related note, does anyone think V and Haley's friendship seems to have suffered a blow recently? :smallconfused:

Yes, it's called "not being single."

Watch if they stop at an Inn; guess who she'll share a room with THIS time?

[Selene]

On a related note, does anyone think V and Haley's friendship seems to have suffered a blow recently? :smallconfused:

Yes. Not sure why, though.

[Doctor Xerox]

I'm of the opinion that Rich will either reveal that the characters were making fun of V soon or give some other reason why the order is acting this way. He did something similar in 422 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0422.html) when Redcloak sticks up to "Xykon" and relied on our trust in his writing ability to not randomly change they way characters interact on a whim, and hint that something was up. Plus he hinted at it with the strange medallion that time, and this time he threw in a line of dialogue designed to show how ludicrous the situation was, "Miss Starshine, you were the one who bequeathed upon him his Common name!" So, the idea that Rich made a writing blunder for the sake of a joke is ludicrous.

[Trobby]

:O...How did Elan get a Duck Familiar? I've been looking for those since forever! ;-; Lucky Bard...

Oh yes...um...very suspicious how nobody seems to even see V's Familiar anymore, even when he blatantly points him out...er...speculation, anyone? :O

[Dark Faun]

...But that's not entirely fair because, from this comic alone, the same could be said of Roy and Durkon or Haley and Elan.
I know. :smalltongue:

[Draz74]

Oh wow, whoever pointed out that Roy never has seen Blackwing ... good work! That's a very interesting point. So he, at least, is completely sincere and intelligent about this strip. (He presumably saw him once, in the Oracle's office; but the Memory Charm will have taken care of that incident.)

I have absolutely no trouble with the idea that Belkar and Elan have just completely forgotten about Blackwing.

That leaves Haley and Durkon. And Durkon ... well, his lines, to me, very much sound like he remembers Blackwing and is just pulling a fast one on V. "It's tragic, really"? Really? If that comment was sincere, he'd be a lot more concerned.

And if Durkon is joking (and I love it when he breaks out of his reserved shell and surprises us with his personality like that!), maybe Haley is too. I mean, she's got the Bluff skill for it. And the personality too. And if Durkon's joking in the second-last panel, it seems appropriate for him and Haley to be joking together.

Of course, it really doesn't matter in the long run. None of this is going to be important to the plot on a long-term basis, for a very simple reason:

It's the beginning of a new book! Those are always filled with lighthearted, gag-funny, plot-irrelevant, sometimes ridiculous strips. People have just forgotten that sometimes this comic does sacrifice continuity for humor.

[Hrairoo]

typical of the order to come to ALL the wrong conclusions.

but hooray for blackwing officially becoming part of the order. i wonder if he goes on the cast page?

[Nights1stStar]

Wait... why did Belkar think V called him a cutie?

I know "acuity" is easy to miss-hear, but why would belkar even consider that that was what V said?This is BELKAR, you're talking about. Remember, he has a Wisdom score of a lemming, which means he has a poor listen check.

...plus, Belkar is also only capable of processing two emotions: Hate and Lust. Seeing V all Evil and pink-haired probably caused him to unconsciously file the elf under the "Lust" category again (And I can't say I blame him...Both Evil V and Neutral V are awesome. :smallwink:). Now, the only way Belkar can assuage his repressed feelings for V is interpret everything s/he says as flirtation. :smallbiggrin: Just kidding, but you gotta admit the thought is hilarious.

[Zanaril]

I agree with your post.


Just kidding, but you gotta admit the thought is hilarious.
Except for this bit. :smallamused:

[Nights1stStar]

I agree with your post.


Except for this bit. :smallamused:Touche. :smallsmile:

Edit: I suppose the reason I don't really want to think about Belkar pursuing V is because I want him/her to get back together with Kyrie. :smallfrown:

For one thing, Belkar IS going to stop breathing. If my wild mass guessing is true, that means we're going to have a zombie/robot Belkar going after V soon...

...I've just inspired someone, somewhere in the world to write a zombie-robot-Belkar/V crackfic, didn't I? *Cringes behind desk in shame*

[SteveDJ]

Ok, I've scanned (albeit quickly) the comments, and cannot believe nobody has noticed what I believe is a serious typo!

Frame 4: Haley says "Huh. I didn't know that."

Frame 5: V says "You did not--Miss Starshine, you were the one who bequeathed upon him his Common name!"

Given the tone, and appearance of frustration as V is saying that, I am positive that V should have been saying "You did too!..."

...otherwise, am I missing some other element here?

[Nights1stStar]

Ok, I've scanned (albeit quickly) the comments, and cannot believe nobody has noticed what I believe is a serious typo!

Frame 4: Haley says "Huh. I didn't know that."

Frame 5: V says "You did not--Miss Starshine, you were the one who bequeathed upon him his Common name!"

Given the tone, and appearance of frustration as V is saying that, I am positive that V should have been saying "You did too!..."

...otherwise, am I missing some other element here?I think V began to exclaim "You did not know that!?" and then began saying something different mid-sentence.

However, I did notice that there was one scene where V says that Blackwing's a "raven, not a crow."

Vaarsuvius, honey, all ravens are crows but not all crows are ravens. :smallwink: It's ok, you're still my favorite character...

[Dark Faun]

"You did not-" is the sentence "You did not know that I had a familiar?" interrupted. :smallsmile:

EDIT: ninja'd!

[silvadel]

I also thought "This must have something to do with the rift"

Either that or maybe that teleport that MITD did didnt send V back to the same prime material plane......

Similar but different in enough ways like a slider's slide.

[Zanaril]

Vaarsuvius, honey, all ravens are crows but not all crows are ravens. :smallwink: It's ok, you're still my favorite character...
Ooh, burn. :smallamused:

[Darkroot]

Given the tone, and appearance of frustration as V is saying that, I am positive that V should have been saying "You did too!..."

...otherwise, am I missing some other element here?

I believe V was incredulously beginning to repeat "you did not know that!?" and cut herself off halfway to change the sentence.

EDIT: Wow, thats what I get for reading through the page and not refreshing before i post. Multi-ninja'd!

[Eran of Arcadia]

Overlooked in this discussion of Blackwing and the forgetting thereof, is that Roy says Belkar has a lead on "what I need for the mission".

Speculation? Mentioned in earlier strips/bonus strips and I missed it? What think ye?

[Sijo]

Eh... I dunno, I didn't find it that funny. Maybe because once again we are on "comic strip logic versus game logic" (or "story logic"). I find that jarring. Now it turns out that Blackwing has ALWAYS been next to V, but he WAS invisible unless V spoke to him? Ooo-kay, whatever. But I don't find it too funny. And it definitely wasn't worth a WHOLE page just for the gag.

Ah well, they can't all be winners, and the "book" is just starting. Btw, was that Big Bird whose image Elan conjured?

[Kaytara]

Eh... I dunno, I didn't find it that funny. Maybe because once again we are on "comic strip logic versus game logic" (or "story logic"). I find that jarring. Now it turns out that Blackwing has ALWAYS been next to V, but he WAS invisible unless V spoke to him? Ooo-kay, whatever.

Umm, sorry, but that's your bad Spot check there, not the writer's fault. :P We knew since the very beginning of the strip that Blackwing is ALWAYS there but "invisible" unless V remembers him. Every single time V remembers him, he says something along the lines of "My familiar, who has been at my side all this time". So that's well-established. You're free to feel that it's still not funny, but it's incorrect to say that this came out of the blue.


Oh wow, whoever pointed out that Roy never has seen Blackwing ... good work! That's a very interesting point. So he, at least, is completely sincere and intelligent about this strip.
Up to the part where he convinces himself that the raven is actually an illusion. XD


I have absolutely no trouble with the idea that Belkar and Elan have just completely forgotten about Blackwing.
Elan never saw Blackwing, either. Remember, it was HIM they were trying to rescue from the bandits when they enlisted Blackwing's aid.

[multilis]

It is hard to believe that OOTS or at least Roy wouldn't have heard the report from O-Chul and/or V on their last visit with X, as part of planning their next move including the "Raven"/rift part.

So to me sounds like big memory charm type plot twist or an impromptu play along with joke.

[Pip]

To be fair, I don't think Roy has seen Blackwing more that once.

[Sijo]

Umm, sorry, but that's your bad Spot check there, not the writer's fault. :P We knew since the very beginning of the strip that Blackwing is ALWAYS there but "invisible" unless V remembers him. Every single time V remembers him, he says something along the lines of "My familiar, who has been at my side all this time". So that's well-established. You're free to feel that it's still not funny, but it's incorrect to say that this came out of the blue.


Actually, I *was* pretty much aware of the "is Blackwing there or not?" debate, I've seen it discussed in these boards before. I was just hoping that there would be an actual explanation other than "the others didn't see it because it's funnier that way". Especially since it wasn't that funny. No big deal tho.

[Linkavitch]

Awesome. Now there is the V we all know and love.:smallsmile:

totally sigged.

[Kish]

For one thing, Belkar IS going to stop breathing. If my wild mass guessing is true, that means we're going to have a zombie/robot Belkar going after V soon...
Don't worry about that. (A zombie or robot would be in the world, Belkar will not be.)

[Mr. Scaly]

Hehe... At last the comic makes me laugh again.

[Hithros]

Heh........
Poor V, though. It's really difficult to explain when everyone else is convinced otherwise.

[Simons Mith]

Heh, a cheap gag, but inevitable. They wouldn't be the Order of the Stick if they remembered too many plot points.

[Tobimaro]

"I require a remainder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities"

Pure. Gold. Thanks Rich (and thanks V.).

Yep. V got burned, so it is time to fall back on old habits. :smallamused:

Feel the love, V. :smallbiggrin:

[DnDgeek13]

ok, what did the rift do to blackwing? i've no idea

[Carteeg_Struve]

Okay. Most of the group are being ditzes. I'm siding with V on the 'arcane destruction' solution. However, I only blame Belkar because he still hasn't put any dang ranks into Spot.

However, major points to Omergideon for noticing Roy never seeing Blackwing before EVER! That never occurred to me, especially since the lizard-V appearance of Blackwing literally happened right behind Roy's back. I'm personally stunned by that actually now-pseudo-vital piece of trivia.


Blackwing Times (I think I got them all)
Dungeon - group split momentarily (ninja group vs. ogre group). Roy in one, V in the other.
Bandit Camp - Roy walked off momentarily, leaving Elan to the winds
Lizard V - B appeared behind Roy's back, chased V, and was still behind Roy when V skittered up to the 'protection' of Roy's leg. B was not seen after that.
Oracle - Roy's back was turned again (B was in for a single frame).
Battle of Helm's Deep... err Azure City - Roy w/ Xykon while V on the ground.
V vs. Xykon - Roy was dead, but also with the main group being rezzed.

The first time Roy truly could have had any real chance of seeing Blackwing was on the boat-ride after B popped back in for good. And even then Roy wasn't there when the popping occurred.

[Wolfram]

I can think of no familiar more fitting for Elan, except possibly Grover.

No, Elmo.

Granted, I loathe him, but he does fit.

[Fael IsilLuin]

Ha Ha!
Big Bird Familiar

[Kumori]

Please, please, please make the next V shirt say : "I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all life's indignities..."

I second this, and say that I would be first in line to buy it!

[Moff Chumley]

<3 V.

:smallredface:

[Hannibal]

It seems to me that something very deep inside V's mind has snapped and he's become schizophrenic.

Blackwing therefore becomes the imaginary friend V uses to withdraw from the horrors of his reality: the unspeakable guilt over the things he did. Blackwing is a kindred spirit V can talk with who understands him, who doesn't judge him, who forgives him for his past misdeeds.

Following this line of thought, it's possible that a lot of the things we've seen are parts of V's hallucinatory world. Perhaps Blackwing was actually simply killed outright by the vortex, or sucked in never to return, and V imagined that he lived. In that case, V would create an illusion of a raven, hence the fighter mentioning that it's very convincing.

I don't understand why they wouldn't remember the actual raven, though, unless Rich has been planning V's insanity for years, and Blackwing never truly existed.

[Owl]

I cannot believe that I am the first to point this out. I'm not even one of the real obsessives about the strip, and almost never post in these forums. All you mega-fan obsessives should be ashamed of yourselves for missing this...


The entire Order except Belkar was present and paying attention when Blackwing testified at their trial in Azure City. They all saw and heard him then.

"Caw caw caw CAW caw caw caw!"

"Curse you, treacherous avian!!"

271 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0271.html)

[Impnemo]

I cannot believe that I am the first to point this out. I'm not even one of the real obsessives about the strip, and almost never post in these forums. All you mega-fan obsessives should be ashamed of yourselves for missing this...271 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0271.html)

Well, obviously they're all blind or paranoid delusional schizophrenics for not remembering or seeing him that one time.

/sarcasm



Reversal is funny. It needs no greater rhyme or reason. Every previous use of Blackwing, bar one, was some sort of throw away gag. Now he is becoming a plot element. Feel his pain. Feel it.

[Slimslamer]

This comic made me smile hard.

[blueblade]

How is there still a discussion about this being a joke? Look at the title of the strip for Thor's sake! It's clearly a reference to V getting a taste of her own medicine.

I will agree that at least Durkon and maybe Elan (although he's smarter now) are clearly acting a little out of character.

[Wanderer]

I'm with you V! Do it! DO IT!

[General Valter]

Ooh, that's an excellent point, roumani. Elan and Durkon probably still have some leftover resentment from the way V treated them while they were still with the fleet. They might just be teasing her/him as a way of getting back at him/her.

[David Argall]

major points to Omergideon for noticing Roy never seeing Blackwing before EVER!
Not quite. He has merely shown that we can't prove that Roy has seen Blackwing.



Lizard V - B appeared behind Roy's back, chased V, and was still behind Roy when V skittered up to the 'protection' of Roy's leg. B was not seen after that.
There was a fair amount of skittering around here. V starts on one side of Roy, runs away from him and then ends on the other side. So there is a substantial amount of off-camera time to Roy to see Blackwing.
However in 178, Haley mentions Blackwing to Roy, and describes him as V's familiar. That seems to be enough to kill the idea of Roy having no idea that V had a familiar.


Oracle - Roy's back was turned again (B was in for a single frame).
But B did not pop in here, meaning he was present for longer than an instant, and is seen where Roy had been looking a moment earlier. Again the presumption is that Roy was aware of B. We can't prove he saw him, but it's rather a push to insist he didn't.



The first time Roy truly could have had any real chance of seeing Blackwing was on the boat-ride after B popped back in for good. And even then Roy wasn't there when the popping occurred.
While we don't know how long the voyage is, we would presume several days, and that again means considerable chance to notice Blackwing.

So we have no absolute proof that Roy could identify Blackwing, but it is very definitely the way to bet. And that makes it more likely than not that something strange is going on here.

[Tundar]

I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is no an approiate response to all of life's indignites.

That gem just moved into top 3 of most memorable V quotes.


Poor V and his imaginary bird friend :D

[Superglucose]

I really hope I'm not the only one who found this joke contrived, forced, and utterly unfunny. C'mon, "they think he's insane because she's never talked about her familiar before."?

*rimshot* *crickets* back to story please. If they actually think that V is insane then it's like the previous 600 odd panels didn't happen, and if they're just messing with him then Giant just pulled a Family Guy and ran a joke that could've been funny for a couple panels into the ground by stretching it into a comic.

[Dark Faun]

I really hope I'm not the only one who found this joke contrived, forced, and utterly unfunny.
You're not.

Out of the six last comics, only two actually made me smile (671 & 673). It's depressing.

[whitelaughter]

:vaarsuvius:: "I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities. Quickly please, before they are out of range."

hmmmmmm.......sorry V, I got nothin'
:smallsmile:

[SteveDJ]

I think V began to exclaim "You did not know that!?" and then began saying something different mid-sentence.

Ah, now that makes a lot more sense. I just hadn't see it from that angle before. Thanks!

[kabbes]

I really hope I'm not the only one who found this joke contrived, forced, and utterly unfunny. C'mon, "they think he's insane because she's never talked about her familiar before."?
Well you're clearly not the only one, because quite a few people have mentioned the same thing in this thread alone.

[Junltd]

Just out of curiosity, how does Belkar know about V fighting the Death knight? She's hardly one to tell him all about her failure back at Azure city.

[Armitage]

Just out of curiosity, how does Belkar know about V fighting the Death knight? She's hardly one to tell him all about her failure back at Azure city.
Belkas has been with the resistance, and any one of those people might have been near V during that fight and told Belkar about it.

[Blaznak]

That was... random. And foreshadowy, me thinketh...

[TreeHugger42]

Oh, I'm begging here -- new Vaarsuvious T-shirt:

"I require a reminder as to why raining arcane destruction is not an appropriate response to all of life's indignities."

Pleeeaase!! :-D

[Jagos]

Hmmm...

I'm torn. I like the joke but this has to allude to something else. Without looking at 7 pages of notes, I have to believe that Blackwing's proximity to the snarl hole put some kind of spell on him that no one else really knows about.

I mean really? Even Haley forgot about him? That just seems excessive.

[Kaytara]

I cannot believe that I am the first to point this out. I'm not even one of the real obsessives about the strip, and almost never post in these forums. All you mega-fan obsessives should be ashamed of yourselves for missing this...


The entire Order except Belkar was present and paying attention when Blackwing testified at their trial in Azure City. They all saw and heard him then.

"Caw caw caw CAW caw caw caw!"

"Curse you, treacherous avian!!"

271 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0271.html)

So what? A black bird testified in bird language. A Flumph testified as well. For them to have a memory of seeing V's familiar, they need to have KNOWN at the time that what they were seeing was V's familiar. There's no proof that they realised it was V's familiar rather than some random bird who had been flying overhead and had been called to testify for that reason. V's remark is the only thing approaching a hint, but it's not like they didn't have other things on their minds at that time, like their upcoming possible execution.

Of course, it's still a joke.

That said, it's not THAT unrealistic. I think many people overestimate human memory. WE know that V has a familiar because we know the whole archive inside out from countless archive binges. However, to the Order...

Imagine that you're shopping with your friend Sam. Sam runs into a friend of his, the three of you chat for a minute and when you mention that you're new in town and looking for a dentist, the friend gives you an address. Then you part ways.

Over a year passes. During that year, you have moved several times, got scammed, started a new college, had problems with the police and a whole lot of other stressful stuff. Finally you go shopping with Sam again and he meets another person. He introduces that person as his friend and mention that you've already met. You say "Really? I don't remember that."

...Is that really so implausible? :smallsigh:

[kabbes]

That said, it's not THAT unrealistic. I think many people overestimate human memory. WE know that V has a familiar because we know the whole archive inside out from countless archive binges. However, to the Order...

Imagine that you're shopping with your friend Sam. Sam runs into a friend of his, the three of you chat for a minute and when you mention that you're new in town and looking for a dentist, the friend gives you an address. Then you part ways.

Over a year passes. During that year, you have moved several times, got scammed, started a new college, had problems with the police and a whole lot of other stressful stuff. Finally you go shopping with Sam again and he meets another person. He introduces that person as his friend and mention that you've already met. You say "Really? I don't remember that."

...Is that really so implausible? :smallsigh:
That bears no relation whatsoever to this scenario.

Maybe if you had spent a year engaged in an intense struggle for the future of the planet with Sam as one of only a handful of allies in that struggle, and also if Sam's friend was of a special magical variety that you know that only people like Sam can have, and they can only have one of... maybe then it would be starting to get close. And if Sam's friend had been actively involved in saving the life of a friend of yours. Oh yes -- and if you had given Sam's friend his name!

This is ridiculous. There is no way that I should particularly remember Blackwing any better than Haley. The gaps between Blackwing appearing are far longer in time in my world than in Haley's world. Furthermore, to me this is just a webcomic that I catch up with as and when it updates, in between the thousands of more important things going on in my life. For Haley, the activities of Vaarsuvius are literally a life and death matter.

And yet while it is effortless for me to remember that this one character in one webcomic that I check up on every few days has a raven familiar, it is somehow credible that Haley would have completely forgotten?

[kabbes]

... And not only completely forgotten, of course, but also prefer to consider her trusted ally insane rather than consider that he is actually telling the truth?

[Dark Faun]

I guess Xykon's stupidity aura rubbed off on Vaarsuvius while he strangled her. :smallwink:

[Onyavar]

The bandit arc took place yesterday, right? You can click your way back to the hilarious events and laugh again (and again and again). But the bandit arc happened at least ten months (?) before "now". The craziest things happened between "now" and "then".
I find it entirely believable that the whole party forgot about Blackwing. Belkar forgot what Roy told him about giants (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0139.html) after 40 strips (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0179.html). The party has seen Blackwing in 3, 155, 178, 279. This is 400 strips back(!!!).

It's a bit stretching that Haley forgot, too. But most of the things discussed in these forums are over-analyzed. Why don't you omniscient readers allow the protagonists to forget things?

A friend of mine (a great fan thanks to whom I discovered OotS) was baffled when I showed him the "obvious connections" between Sabine and IFCC or between ABD and the dragon V killed waaay back. In the forums, speculations about the "obvious connections" appeared instantly after IFCC or ABD entered the stage.
Most forumites wouldn't be surprised if Righteye returned in the next strip, riding on Trigak. One would argue about "deus/devil ex machina", the plausibility of this return and the moral justification of using Trigak as a mount.

Okay, I forgot my point now. My memory is not at its best. Hmm... must be some ranting about "over-analyzing memories of story-characters".

[kabbes]

It's a bit stretching that Haley forgot, too. But most of the things discussed in these forums are over-analyzed. Why don't you omniscient readers allow the protagonists to forget things?.I can't speak for other people, but this is the first thing in the strip that I have ever questioned. It goes beyond a suspension of disbelief, frankly, and into contriving a situation in which characters are forced to behave completely at odds with how we have been led to expect them to behave.

And THIS is why I am questioning it. It exists purely as a joke, via the medium of character-based humour. But character-based humour doesn't work when the characters don't behave as you would expect them to behave. Therefore the joke fails.

Really, it's no big deal. It's only one comic out of nearly 700. But I find it odd that people are willing to stretch the bounds of credibility beyond breaking point in their attempt to justify it.

[wootage]

I can't speak for other people, but this is the first thing in the strip that I have ever questioned. It goes beyond a suspension of disbelief, frankly, and into contriving a situation in which characters are forced to behave completely at odds with how we have been led to expect them to behave.

And THIS is why I am questioning it. It exists purely as a joke, via the medium of character-based humour. But character-based humour doesn't work when the characters don't behave as you would expect them to behave. Therefore the joke fails.

Really, it's no big deal. It's only one comic out of nearly 700. But I find it odd that people are willing to stretch the bounds of credibility beyond breaking point in their attempt to justify it.

Well, I think that we have to remember that for this party of adventurers, AD&D really means something else (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0325.html) :D

Considering this, I actually found it to be unexpectedly in character for them.

[fruityjanitor]

Though I don't actually remember Roy being around when V used his Familiar before.


I don't want to do an archive binge to verify this, but you may be right. So Roy is confused because he's never seen Blackwing before and everyone else is confused because they have short attention spans.

I'm amazed at how many people don't get the joke, but I guess humor is relative. I thought it was pretty funny, especially Elan's "Look! Now I have a familiar!". (BTW, having a duck familiar would be awesome!)

Edit: Somebody pointed out the familiar is actually Big Bird. lol. Nice! I still think a duck familiar would be awesome :smallbiggrin:

[factotum]

I don't want to do an archive binge to verify this, but you may be right.

As already pointed out, Blackwing was a witness at their trial in Azure City...Roy would have had to have been blind not to see him there.

[fruityjanitor]

I find it entirely believable that the whole party forgot about Blackwing. Belkar forgot what Roy told him about giants (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0139.html) after 40 strips (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0179.html). The party has seen Blackwing in 3, 155, 178, 279. This is 400 strips back(!!!).


This is a really good point. It has been a while since any of them have seen Blackwing, and every time they have seen it, it was used only briefly, not considered very important, and then quickly dismissed (or "unremembered" if you will, since it has been said that V doesn't summon and dismiss Blackwing, it's just "always there" but she doesn't always remember it).

The characters in the comic don't have the ability to do an archive binge (except the Oracle) so it is understandable if they forget about minor things like Blackwing.

[Kaytara]

As already pointed out, Blackwing was a witness at their trial in Azure City...Roy would have had to have been blind not to see him there.

And as already responded... To Roy (who was busy thinking about how to win the trial and avoid an execution), Blackwing the witness was just some random bird. :smalltongue:

That bears no relation whatsoever to this scenario.

Maybe if you had spent a year engaged in an intense struggle for the future of the planet with Sam as one of only a handful of allies in that struggle, and also if Sam's friend was of a special magical variety that you know that only people like Sam can have, and they can only have one of... maybe then it would be starting to get close. And if Sam's friend had been actively involved in saving the life of a friend of yours. Oh yes -- and if you had given Sam's friend his name![
I think you're over-dramatising. You're phrasing things as if magic or dramatic struggles for the fate of the world are even remotely out-of-the ordinary in the world they live in. Now - if they'd actually decided back then to get serious about it and keep tabs on all their tools and assets, then you'd have a point. But "back then" is when they didn't even yet know that the world was at stake and thus really had no reason to give such matters a lot of thought.

By the way, a few of your examples are strange to me.

And if Sam's friend had been actively involved in saving the life of a friend of yours.
When was this? Haley wasn't around for the Flight of the Phylactery and while she knows the conclusion (phylactery lost), there's no reason to assume that she knows the details of how it came to pass.

Oh yes -- and if you had given Sam's friend his name![
So I can stop at a friend's house, see a pet goldfish and imaginatively name it Goldie for him. I don't see why that would give me cause to remember it many months later.


For Haley, the activities of Vaarsuvius are literally a life and death matter.
For Haley, everything is a life and death matter, since she's an adventurer. No reason one trivial thing would stick out over another.


And yet while it is effortless for me to remember that this one character in one webcomic that I check up on every few days has a raven familiar, it is somehow credible that Haley would have completely forgotten?
If she only really saw him (and recognised as V's familiar) twice, the first time for about two seconds and the second for about half a minute... both times giving him the minimal amount of thought (like naming him based on his colour)... well, obviously this is a matter of opinion, but to me it's quite credible, especially given that Haley has occasionally shown such ditziness, already. (Her repeatedly forgetting that the Azure City archers only have axes on their miniatures comes to mind.)

[kabbes]

Haley saw Vaarsuvius send Blackwing over the bandit camp, which was an integral part of their plan to rescue Elan. That's what I am referring to when I say that the raven was involved saving her friend's life.

[Optimystik]

Even assuming it was plausible for all of them to develop avian-related amnesia (which I still doubt; they remember something as obscure as V battling the Death Knight but not his familiar?), couldn't they have just verified his story by looking back through the comic's archive?

I said it before; this one fell pretty flat for me.

[kabbes]

If nothing else, here's a thought:

A significant number of people identified and then bothered to register the fact that they found this particular comic well out of character given what we have learned about them in the last 673 comics.

Even if you can find some contrived scenario that justifies to yourself why it might not be out of character after all, if you are leaving that many readers behind, you've whiffed the joke.

As I say -- one out of 674 is a bloody good hit rate and not remotely worth worrying about. It's still the Best Thing on the Internet (TM). But there's no point pretending that this particular comic didn't miss.

[Niesra]

For the love of....I mean COME ON! This is the funniest strip I've read in a while. I mean, if we (because I'm assuming you all have read all this more than once) didn't have the capability to look back at the archives would we remember a random bird that appeared two or three times in a five year span? SPECIALLY when blackwing himself is a parody (or used to be anyways) about how many players neglect familiars. Anyhow, the fact is that blackwing sounds imaginary anyway you look at it (because he really did ONLY appear when V remembered him) and it's perfectly reasonable (and really funny) that nobody remembers V had a raven...just saying...
PS: Their attitude, considering V's recent behavior, is perfectly natural ¬¬

[kabbes]

For the love of....I mean COME ON! This is the funniest strip I've read in a while. I mean, if we (because I'm assuming you all have read all this more than once) didn't have the capability to look back at the archives would we remember a random bird that appeared two or three times in a five year span? SPECIALLY when blackwing himself is a parody (or used to be anyways) about how many players neglect familiars. Anyhow, the fact is that blackwing sounds imaginary anyway you look at it (because he really did ONLY appear when V remembered him) and it's perfectly reasonable (and really funny) that nobody remembers V had a raven...just saying...
PS: Their attitude, considering V's recent behavior, is perfectly natural ¬¬
I disagree.

[Kaytara]

But there's no point pretending that this particular comic didn't miss.

Um.

I feel obliged to point out that not everyone feels that it has missed. As usual, opinions diverge.

Personally, I think we're getting too fixated on this. For me, there were plenty of reasons I loved this page that had nothing to do with the joke whatsoever. Roy and Belkar's initial reaction to V using the pronoun "we", Big Bird as Elan's familiar, Belkar misinterpreting V's word use as "cutie"... I'm surprised that apparently you didn't like any of that, either, if you think this particular comic has missed altogether... :smallfrown:

On an unrelated note, is anyone else kind of pleasantly shocked that nobody has yet created a thread proclaiming that "Vaarsuvius is a man because the title totally refers to the boy who cried wolf"?

[Zanaril]

On an unrelated note, is anyone else kind of pleasantly shocked that nobody has yet created a thread proclaiming that "Vaarsuvius is a man because the title totally refers to the boy who cried wolf"?
I certainly am.

But then again, people never pick up on every single point.

[Onyavar]

For the love of....I mean COME ON! This is the funniest strip I've read in a while.
I disagree.
But I agree.



But there's no point pretending that this particular comic didn't miss.

I see no point pretending that this particular comic failed. Look at all the great puns, Rich at his best!

[Dark Faun]

It might be a good moment to mention that opinions aren't facts and that there's no accounting for taste... :smallwink:

[Porthos]

if you are leaving that many readers behind, you've whiffed the joke.

All it means is that a small minority decicded to be vocal about something they didn't like about the comic.

...

So, no change there, then. :smalltongue:

=========

<ETA as to not Double Post>
BTW:
This update might be the start of a running gag.
This update might be foreshadowing of a major plotpoint.
This update might be a clue that there is something significantly wrong with <take your pick of character(s)> and or StickWorld.

It's hard to rule anything out, plot wise, with this strip. :smallwink:

All I (and at least a few other posters apparently) iz saying is that it doesn't have to be. The ironic situation is funny enough on it's own.*

But, as all things Internet, YMMV. As, apparently it did in this case. :smallsmile:

* And if it is signifying Something of Import? As I just said in another thread: I'll say something like, "Huh. That's cool. Nice twist," And move on.

Until then, I'll just "go with the funny.":smallwink:

[Golden-Esque]

If nothing else, here's a thought:

A significant number of people identified and then bothered to register the fact that they found this particular comic well out of character given what we have learned about them in the last 673 comics.

Even if you can find some contrived scenario that justifies to yourself why it might not be out of character after all, if you are leaving that many readers behind, you've whiffed the joke.

As I say -- one out of 674 is a bloody good hit rate and not remotely worth worrying about. It's still the Best Thing on the Internet (TM). But there's no point pretending that this particular comic didn't miss.

I disagree. I laughed and laughed at this one. I thought it was pretty hilarious, and I don't find it hard to believe in the slightest that the Order forgot about Blackwing.

You've got to remember that the Order is not the reader fan base. The fans on this board are nuts; like Azuth himself formed each and every one of the posters in this thread to care about NOTHING but the Order of the Stick and to do NOTHING but over analyze Rich's work.

I agree with the scenario given above. Blackwing did very little throughout the course of the comic, and it makes sense that the Order would have forgotten him. However, as others have pointed out, it's interesting to note that Blackwing would have probably been with V on the entire boat ride to the West Continent, and V probably would have summoned Blackwing before reaching the West Continent. Surely someone in the Order would have noticed Blackwing during all that time?

Rich seldom includes information in comics seldomly for the punch line. Almost every comic that people have dismissed as "just a filler joke" has come back to mean something later on. As it was suggested before, maybe after the events of the Snarl, the other members of the Order are physically incapable of perceiving Blackwing.

Regardless of whether this is a super-stretch, an inside joke between the other Order of the Stick members, or just an oversight by Rich, I find the entire notion to be highly ironic. Think about it; up until this point, V never acknowledged Blackwing's existence, but everyone else (i.e. Haley) remembered about Blackwing and got V to use him or her. But now that V openly acknowledges Blackwing's existence, everyone else seems to have taken V's former ignorance on the subject. Hilarious :P.

[whitemane]

I suspect that things will only get better for V from here, unless a setback makes for a good enough punchline.

My thought is that V has reached the bottom of the alignment barrel and will only go up from here. S/he saw what s/he had become during the soul splice and is now trying to become a better person and use hir considerable abilities for something better than s/he did during the splice. Part of that is hir new relationship with Blackwing.

In many ways, I think V is truly trying to attone for misdeeds. I just hope that it is not too late for hir to make things right with Inkyrius.

(What can I say, I'm a hopeless romantic...)

All that having been said, Karma continues to teach V lessons that s/he seems very eager to learn. (And with Blackwing as a guide, I think s/he will figure them out...)

[Rhuna_Coppermane]

:mitd: Raven? What raven?

I think I love you. :biggrin:

[Zanaril]

:mitd: Raven? What raven?

Blackwing is the MITD!

No wait, that doesn't make any sense...


The Order are all the MITD, and Blackwing is a Gate!

[silvadel]

In essence there has to be a reason. Something is up with the raven or with V. There are many many possible reasons for this and I have faith it will eventually be revealed in the story as something at least somewhat important.

[Porthos]

In essence there has to be a reason.

Why?

No, really: Why?

Sure there might be a reason (I might even go as far as to say that there's a good chance [insert own definition of good HERE] that there's a reason). But why does there have to be a reason?

Can't there just be a throwaway joke in this comic that doesn't actually point to Something To Think About? I mean, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. :smallsmile:

[Herald Alberich]

Even assuming it was plausible for all of them to develop avian-related amnesia (which I still doubt; they remember something as obscure as V battling the Death Knight but not his familiar?), couldn't they have just verified his story by looking back through the comic's archive?

No, but Roy wishes he could (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0528.html). Apparently the Cast Page is a separate entity.

[Selene]

Ooh, that's an excellent point, roumani. Elan and Durkon probably still have some leftover resentment from the way V treated them while they were still with the fleet. They might just be teasing her/him as a way of getting back at him/her.

Durkon's not resentful. He just apologized to V in #667 for not helping him more when they were back on the boat. "Who knows how much sooner we'd have gotten Roy back, if'n I'd helped instead o' lecturin' ye."

And Elan, resentful?? I don't think he has that emotion, does he?.

[Elemental_Elf]

Ha, I laughed out loud at this comic because it bring back a lot of good memories. I once played a Sorcerer who had a toad familiar that, like Blackwing, almost never appeared in game... Until I was separated from the party in a dungeon and desired a second set of eyes. The general reaction from around the table was 'Wait... You have a familiar!?' Hehe, the convo went about as well as V's did. Hell they only believed me because I had the feat written down on my sheet that could not be accounted for in any other way except for the fact that I had a familiar.

As for those who are decrying this comic as 'implausibility at best' I would remind them that there has been at least a 9 month gap during which the party was separated. 9 months away from V (and Blackwing) is more than enough time to forget about V's little familiar who has shown up, what, 3 or 4 times at best and each of those appearances save 1 was either for a quick gag.

[choie]

I enjoyed it a lot, even while feeling sympathy for Vaarsuvius (as I am wont to do!). I don't think it was the funniest thing to ever funny, but I definitely grinned at how frustrated V was and at Elan's goofy Big Bird familiar. And at V's killer t-shirt-worthy line at the end.

Very glad to have Rich & OOTS back, and for such a promising beginning.

(Actually, I feel really dumb because before I came here, my first assumption was that Blackwing had either cast some kind of amnesia spell on the gang, or some camouflage spell on himself -- hence his having taught Vaarsuvius a lesson, as referenced in his last line. But since no one is even opining that, I gather that in D&D, familiars don't have this ability. So I'll just slink away!)

[Kaytara]

Choie! Long time no see. I've missed your posts.

Well, your idea was kind of suggested a few pages back. Someone said that Blackwing did really want V to feel his pain, otherwise he could have spoken up any moment, therefore he was doing it on purpose. I don't agree, because illusions can talk, too, and speaking up would hardly have convinced the Order otherwise when they were already sure that Blackwing was only illusory. But hey, it's a thought.

[The MunchKING]

No, but Roy wishes he could (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0528.html). Apparently the Cast Page is a separate entity.

But the Halfling guild guy could. And the Oracle.

Roy needs to update his Internet connections. :smalltongue:

[Raenir Salazar]

A got a huge laugh out of this though moderately confused why everyone forgot about the Raven, I can only assume that something is afoot.

[Porthos]

Choie! Long time no see. I've missed your posts.

Well, your idea was kind of suggested a few pages back. Someone said that Blackwing did really want V to feel his pain, otherwise he could have spoken up any moment, therefore he was doing it on purpose. I don't agree, because illusions can talk, too, and speaking up would hardly have convinced the Order otherwise when they were already sure that Blackwing was only illusory. But hey, it's a thought.

Of course, there's a problem with the whole illusion thing because Roy (claims) that he can't see the bird originally.

In fact, trying to analyze this strip only using logic becomes exceedingly frustrating exceedingly quickly.

Does Roy ever actually see a bird on V's shoulder at any point? Or is he just humoring V at the end?
And why does he call it a crow, unless he really can't see anything and he already forgot that V called it a raven?
Or did Roy not see it at the beginning, but saw it later on?
Belkar claims that he never sees the bird, even when it's inches away from him.
Was Durkon saying, "let's not upset the crazy person here by challenging his delusions" and not seeing Blackwing either? He certainly never gives the impression that he can see the bird.
And, of course, what's up with Haley?

You see, I have yet to see a theory that addresses every single point above. Amnesia theory? Then why does Roy suddenly see a bird in the middle of the conversation? Or does he?

V going crazy and having a conversation with himself? That's the most plausible of all of the alt-interpretations I've seen (with an Unreliable Narrator supplying a visual representation of Blackwing [Sluggy Freelance just did something very similar recently]) ... Unless you buy the fact that Roy does suddenly see a bird around panel nine (where it seems that he didn't before). And it doesn't cover Haley's reaction.

Roy starts to realize there is a bird there because of his higher wisdom (which ties into the whole Snarl Argument)? OK, but what about Durkon? Or did Durkon just tank a save?

When trying to breakdown this strip logically there's just a lot of loose ends. Sure, there's probably ways to do it. But all the explanations I've seen involve fairly tortured logic.

Which is why I don't use logic to explain this strip. :smalltongue:

And, thinking about it, the fact that it is very hard to logically explain this strip (with what info we have at the moment) might be what has a few people concerned about it. After all, it's not like fandom (and I mean any fandom here) has the reputation about overly obsessing about logical conundrums and all. :smallwink:

[Weimann]

Hooray for humour!

I must say this comic was marvellously entertaining, and reminded me of olden times of yore. Particularly lolworthy was "...did you just call me a cutie?" and Elan's new familiar. What IS that thing, anyway?

As for the "why would they forget" deal, I think it's simply a matter of metagaming and Rule of Funny at work. The characters simply took on a player attitude, and forgot about Blackwing. It's a one time deal, I think, and it was pulled off well.

[banjo1985]

Well, yet another reason for V to get annoyed, conveniently forgetting he forgot about Blackwing even more than the others. You're only allowed to forget about characters when they're nameless NPC's. :smalltongue:

[Joerg]

When I see Blackwing perched on V's shoulder in the last panel, it strikes me how small the raven is in the comic. Ravens in reality are quite big birds, but compared to V's head, Blackwing looks no larger than a sparrow.

Of course, it's stick figure comic art. There's no need to get the proportions right. It just looks particularly strange to me in that case.

[FlawedParadigm]

On an unrelated note, is anyone else kind of pleasantly shocked that nobody has yet created a thread proclaiming that "Vaarsuvius is a man because the title totally refers to the boy who cried wolf"?

This is going to be one of those things referenced in a thread while we're all reading strip 800 and someone's going to point to this and go "I can't believe no one ever mentioned this!" and we'll all just kind of collectively sigh and shakes our heads, remembering times before the plot became a thirty-Xanatos-pileup.

[hamishspence]

Big heads are a feature of OOTS art.

If you take blackwings height relative to V's, its about 1/5th, roughly.

Suggesting that, perched, he's about a foot tall or so- quite reasonable for a raven.

[Raging Gene Ray]

Blackwing is the MITD!

No wait, that doesn't make any sense...


The Order are all the MITD, and Blackwing is a Gate!

And V's crazy and imagining the whole comic!

:roy: He's crazy! Put 'im in one of those crazy buckets!

[Zanaril]

When I see Blackwing perched on V's shoulder in the last panel, it strikes me how small the raven is in the comic. Ravens in reality are quite big birds, but compared to V's head, Blackwing looks no larger than a sparrow.
Ravens don't have yellow beaks and feet either.

My theory is that Blackwing is actually a blackbird.

[hamishspence]

It could just be a cartoon/comic convention- the raven in Sleeping Beauty also has an orange beak and legs.

[Kaytara]

When I see Blackwing perched on V's shoulder in the last panel, it strikes me how small the raven is in the comic. Ravens in reality are quite big birds, but compared to V's head, Blackwing looks no larger than a sparrow.

Of course, it's stick figure comic art. There's no need to get the proportions right. It just looks particularly strange to me in that case.

He's a Little Bird.

[Joerg]

Big heads are a feature of OOTS art.

If you take blackwings height relative to V's, its about 1/5th, roughly.


Yes, that's why the proportions appear wrong in the last panel, where there's nothing else to compare the raven with but V's head.



My theory is that Blackwing is actually a blackbird.

That makes sense. Great idea :smallbiggrin:

[David Argall]

I'll stick with my position.

The joke is good enough, but it grossly conflicts with the story to date and can't be easily ignored as just a joke as Fruit Pie the Sorcerer can be. The party can hardly be playing a joke on V.

Something is up here, presumably involving the rift.

[Optimystik]

I'll stick with my position.

The joke is good enough, but it grossly conflicts with the story to date and can't be easily ignored as just a joke as Fruit Pie the Sorcerer can be. The party can hardly be playing a joke on V.

Something is up here, presumably involving the rift.

I almost hope you're right, just because it would redeem this one somewhat :smalltongue:

[markcobain]

I apologize if someone else already raised this in the thread, but I didn't see it as I went through. From my perspective, the debate about whether the characters remember Blackwing seems to be missing the point of the joke entirely. OOTS is written on many levels, and one of those levels assumes that some of the character dialogue is actually coming from D&D players at the game table. From my experience, it is not uncommon for other players to forget details about a story point or other players' characters from previous gaming sessions. This is especially true if the event in question was a while ago in real life, or it happened late at night (or early in the morning) when focus is drifting. This kind of joking is completely consistent with another player saying "Dude, your character has a familiar? Since when?" and the frustrated, frosty reply of "Since first level." Rich has poked fun at several elements of metagaming in the past, and I took this discussion about the familiar to be in that vein.

[baerdith]

Why?

No, really: Why?

Sure there might be a reason (I might even go as far as to say that there's a good chance [insert own definition of good HERE] that there's a reason). But why does there have to be a reason?

Can't there just be a throwaway joke in this comic that doesn't actually point to Something To Think About? I mean, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. :smallsmile:

Then again, Blackwing was possessed by the Snarl for a short time, maybe THIS Blackwing is a Snarl Avatar that noone else can see? BW IS acting different......

[factotum]

and one of those levels assumes that some of the character dialogue is actually coming from D&D players at the game table.

No such assumption is made--Rich has said, in so many words, that there ARE no players in the Order of the Stick; it just happens to be a world that works according to D&D rules.

[Porthos]

Then again, Blackwing was possessed by the Snarl for a short time, maybe THIS Blackwing is a Snarl Avatar that noone else can see? BW IS acting different......

Still doesn't cover Haley's reaction tho. :smallsmile:

Unless there's a combination of Snarl Affect + Amnesia + Gods Know What Else.

Basically I am saying that if something is going on, there are multiple moving parts to it. And as such, I'm not going to try to figure out it's workings.

Yet, at any rate. :smallwink:

=====

BTW: Anyone bring up: It's All A Dream or Parallel Universes yet?

Or would that be too Story Crushing to even contemplate? :smallbiggrin: