Oh. Oh crap! (Wild, probably incorrect speculation about the Snarl) (spoilers)

[The Wanderer]

So, 674 made me think of something. What if the Snarl doesn't actually kill or destroy things, but instead has a memory altering effect? That it removes or changes memories associated with anything it touches?

This is probably jumping the gun over something that is just meant to be comical in this strip (the others reacting to Blackwing) but think about it for a second. There may be a bit of a pattern forming.

The Snarl is supposed to kill or destroy anything it touches. The evidence is provided by the legend we were told in the Crayon Section: the the Snarl killed the Greek Pantheon, the Snarl destroyed World 1.0, the Snarl killed Soon's wife, etc. In SOD the Snarl killed a goblin cleric and the animals he used for experimentation upon discovering the rift.

However, we've seen several hints that this is not entirely true. Supposedly anything the Snarl touches is destroyed, yet we've seen what may be World 1.0 intact. There has also been a lot of wondering over why the Snarl seems so... peaceful... currently. Blackwing was right there next to it and was entranced by it but was not destroyed. Redcloak has wondered (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0545.html) why the Snarl hasn't tried to consume or destroy anyone. Heck, why wasn't it doing more to reach out through the rifts in the days before the gates and kill more things? (Yes, I'm aware of the Snarl is pure choas and completely unpredictable and unknowable theory).

Now, after being within inches of the Snarl suddenly no one except V (who has a psychic link with his familiar) can remember Blackwing. Including Haley, who has always been the first to remember Blackwing before and reprimanded V for not being a better, more considerate master to his familiar.

So is it possible that the Snarl removes or alters memories of the things it touches, and other characters do the equivalent of a memory Ret Con (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RetCon)? Could it be that everyone has merely been assuming that everything touched by the Snarl was destroyed and it didn't actually happen?

The incident with Blackwing is the first time we, the readers interacting with the Snarl firsthand rather than it simply being told to us secondhand. It may be that the next strip will completely invalidate this, or that the Blackwing issue is simply comic relief, but to me it raises interesting questions.

[Zombie Nixon]

That... actually makes a lot of sense. Though if it's true I don't think the greek gods or the first world would have been remembered

[Another_Poet]

I like it. :)

[The Dark Fiddler]

That... actually makes a lot of sense. Though if it's true I don't think the greek gods or the first world would have been remembered

This. If it were true, then nobody would have remembered any of the victims. And as a matter of fact, likely wouldn't even know there was a problem then.

[Porthos]

People seem to remember Kraagor just fine.

The rest of The Order of the Rift actively fought the Snarl, and people seem to remember them just fine as well.

So I think I'll have to see a lot more evidence of this before I start to buy it. :smallwink:

[The Wanderer]

People seem to remember Kraagor just fine.

The rest of The Order of the Rift actively fought the Snarl, and people seem to remember them just fine as well.

So I think I'll have to see a lot more evidence of this before I start to buy it. :smallwink:

Note that I said remover or alters. Again, I'm the first to admit that I could be wrong and there are holes in the theory the biggest one being the fact that people can see Blackwing, (although they assume he's an illusion) and so presumably if people could see Kraagor, or Soon's wife, or if the Gods could see World 1.0 they would realize that something was wrong with their memories.

But what if, say, people could see Kraagor or Soon's wife, but just assumed it was some kind of odd effect of people destroyed by the Snarl was that it created a hallucination about them, or an afterimage, or something? Kraagor could have been standing right next to Scribble party all the time shouting that he wasn't dead while they wept for their departed comrade. "I can almost see and hear him right now..."

[factotum]

I actually hope this theory is correct, because if it isn't, I thought strip #674 somewhat poor. It would also call into question Blackwing's recollection of having seen a "world within the world".

[Elfin]

Pretty improbable...but I like it.

[Zanaril]

Here's another idea: Blackwing was actually destroyed by the rift, and V really has gone crazy. :smallwink:

Also, I'm sure Blackwing is a blackbird not a raven. Ravens dont have yellow beaks. :smalltongue:

[BatRobin]

Here's another idea: Blackwing was actually destroyed by the rift, and V really has gone crazy. :smallwink:

Also, I'm sure Blackwing is a blackbird not a raven. Ravens dont have yellow beaks. :smalltongue:

Blackwing's a raven, V even says it during the Death Knight fight.

[Zanaril]

Blackwing's a raven, V even says it during the Death Knight fight.
Actually, V says Blackwing is a chicken.

See? More proof of V's insanity.

And they don't remember V's raven familiar, because he's a blackbird!

[cdrcjsn]

Hmm...

In lots of fantasy campaigns, the power of gods are dependent on the strength of the belief of their followers.

If the Snarl does cause people to forget or alter memories about things it touches, then that can explain the death of entire pantheons (no believers = dead god).

Neat idea. I wonder how it will turn out though.

[Tijne]

Maybe the Snarl was just beginning to unmake Blackwing; just begining to erase him from existance... starting with other people's memories of him...

He hasn't unmade anyone in years, so of course its a litlte rusty. It could have just noticed the raven staring at him from the giant gaping hole merely a few inches away, and thus just started to reach Blackwing with its invisible influence...

[General Valter]

I think this does ring true, somewhat. Note that V obviously remembered Blackwing. The unmaking of the Greek Gods and the first world were all directly witnessed by the other Gods. In the same vein, Kraagor and Soon's wife both died in the sight of other people. Witnessing an attack by the snarl might be the only way to recollect it.

One thing I've noticed about this strip is that it doesn't run page-long gags so much anymore. There's probably something that should be noted here. It might just be illustrating V's trip to the "dark side of the alignment pool", or it might be something deeper like The Wanderer's suggestion.

[Tijne]

...
One thing I've noticed about this strip is that it doesn't run page-long gags so much anymore...

Huh? It seems like -every- strip has an amusing gag; including the last few.
They aren't always 'the most funniest thing ever'; but they're still amusing.

[Katana_Geldar]

Then why didn't it affect Xykon?

[Morgan Wick]

Here's another idea: Blackwing was actually destroyed by the rift, and V really has gone crazy. :smallwink:

How crazy, though, if it seems to remove any memory of it having ever existed? After being reminded of how close the bird was to Haley (the Haley of #3 is not the same Haley of #674), I think this theory may be the only way for the strip to make any sense whatsoever. That or Blackwing is casting a memory-altering effect intentionally to get back at V (which I think might be implied by his last-panel line).

[Gandariel]

cm on... i think it was just a joke because actually the bird has (almost) never been there

i'm totally sure of it for a simple reason:

at the end of the strip Vaarsuvius is angry!

if what you say had happened, Vaarsuvius would be just curious, maybe (s)he would say "mmm... why didn't they remember you?"

actually my english is not perfect, but i think you understand what i'm trying to say...

[factotum]

cm on... i think it was just a joke because actually the bird has (almost) never been there


Yet Haley has seen it and actually named it Blackwing--we're supposed to believe she forgot that?

[Avilan the Grey]

I don't think this is it. It does seem though that it consumes things, not obliterate, destroy unmake them. What I mean is that everything it has consumed is still in existence, just not in "our" existence, but inside the Snarl. The world we see is "world 1.0", probably ruled by the green pantheon alone.

[Porthos]

Yet Haley has seen it and actually named it Blackwing--we're supposed to believe she forgot that?

:haley: I thought you said your father was dead? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0291.html) :smallconfused:

In a word? Yes. :smallsmile:

If I'm proven wrong, I'm proven wrong. I won't make a big deal of it or anything, I'll just go, "Huh. Cool twist," and move on. :smallsmile:

But until then I'll just presume that Rule of Funny > Continuity.

And, despite that it didn't work for some people, I found this update particularly funny. :smalltongue:

[Gandariel]

Yet Haley has seen it and actually named it Blackwing--we're supposed to believe she forgot that?

yes!!
cm on!! it's just a parody, not everything has to be completely coherent...

for example, why at the very first strips Belkar doesn't understand when the ninjas Shout "We're here!"?
we're supposed to believe he is deaf?
it's about the same thing
they're just jokes...

[Morquard]

Don't compare #3 to the current strips.
In the beginning OOTS was making fun of the various stupidities in DnD rules, like making spot abd listen checks for stuff that should be obvious, that doesn't nearly happen as often anymore lately.
Hoever of course in 674 Belkar didn't see Blackwing, aka he failed his spotcheck again, on something that shouldn't require one, so maybe I should be silent :)

[silvadel]

Seems consistant... In essence when something is absorbed they are completely eliminated from memory -- EXCEPT for those actually witnessing the event. Would make blackwing very lucky the explosive runes popped it away at the right time.

[Malkar Grumbo]

Here's some wild speculation for you, the Snarl is actually V from the future after the forces of darkness overwhelm him/her. The whole story about the Snarl being just tangles in reality is a lie cooked up to hide the truth! It's a conspiracy I tell you! The truth will be revealed! *is dragged away by IFCC*

Fiend with yellow eyes: You all heard nothing. *erase memories*

[Assassin89]

Then why didn't it affect Xykon?

In that instance, Xykon was destroyed by the sigil on the gate, not by the Snarl, as Xykon was destroyed in a purple energy, not by a claw (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html).

[factotum]

:haley: I thought you said your father was dead? (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0291.html) :smallconfused:


Er, what does that have to do with Haley forgetting anything? Roy's told her that his father is dead, but she now sees a very solid-looking apparition of said father right in front of her--she's confused because she thinks momentarily that Eugene isn't actually dead.

[Porthos]

Er, what does that have to do with Haley forgetting anything? Roy's told her that his father is dead, but she now sees a very solid-looking apparition of said father right in front of her--she's confused because she thinks momentarily that Eugene isn't actually dead.

It's a call back to an earlier strip where she said the (almost) exact same thing (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0060.html). :smallsmile:

She knows that Roy got a message from a ghostly Eugene before. So she shouldn't be saying, "I thought you said your father was dead"* as she already knows about the whole ghost thing.

* I thought there was another example of this gag, but since I can't find it right this second in the comic I might be wrong.


EDIT:::: Ah, It was Durkon who supplied the other "I thought your dad was dead" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0116.html) gag. Might even be more scattereted throughout the strip.

Just proves that the entire OotS suffers from ADD. :smalltongue:

[Gandariel]

anyway, i stick with my idea: it's just a joke...

and, as i said before, i even have a proof... the last things Vaarsuvius says.

Imagine if really the Snarl had canceled the memory on all other people about Blackwing; at the end of the strip, Vaarsuvius wouldn't be angry, she would be... i don't know.. curious... certainly, she would TRY TO UNDERSTAND why other people didn't recognise Blackwing.
But she doesn't


Instead, she gets angry, in some ways aknowledging that they don't recognise Blackwing because they're just stupid. (and here is the joke..)

[Acero]

if i am correct, familiars have magical ablitlities, and avains on average have more abilities than other familiars, and a few them-only abilities.

blackwing even said V must fisrt learn.

could BW had casted selective invisibility on every1 except V, and memory wipe on Haley, so V can learn.
:smallwink:

[Gandariel]

learn what?

[Atrec Randier]

learn what?

Humility, as part of their character development. Probably the same reason why V was angry instead of curious. That and the fact that even Elan is joining in with what is either yet another misinterpretation or one of the smartest, most sarcastic things he has ever said/done

Back on topic, we need to remember this is all theoretical and could be debuffed in an instant. A point I have noticed, however, is the near constant lampshading utilized. Reading down the tv tropes page for retcon (link in The Wanderer's post at top), I found, in highly coincidental positioning, a link to another trope: continuity snarl, which is essentially a conglomeration on self-perpetuating retcons (again highly coincidental). On this page it included a metaphorical description of how one is formed, in the form of a story with only a few minor details different to our very own snarl creation myth. Now this is incredibly coincidental (I at this very moment have Edgewoth's voice in the back of my head rambling about circumstantial evidence), but it still gives us what seems to be even more evidence than #674, which could still be just a joke.

However, it is a brilliant man who can with one joke send the conspiratorial theorists among us scrambling about something which is either:
A- The first major breakthrough as to the nature of the final plot twist
B- Pure coincidence
C- A massive setup designed for this precise reaction

Also, glad to see so many intent on playing devil's advocate. Keep up the good work.

[Atrec Randier]

Oh, and whilst we're collecting potential affectees, MitD's "What gate?"

[lothos]

(snip)
However, it is a brilliant man who can with one joke send the conspiratorial theorists among us scrambling about something which is either:
A- The first major breakthrough as to the nature of the final plot twist
B- Pure coincidence
C- A massive setup designed for this precise reaction


Good Summary, though I'd alter B to be "Pure coincidence with a built in joke"

if it is C, I expect Rich would clear this up in comic in the next few strips... though of course he might not. I can imagine Elan saying something to the effect of "Hmm, just imagine all the conspiracy theories floating around" after the order reveal that they can in fact see blackwing. Possibly as others have said, the raven is setting up some kind of trick.

I suspect though, it's A. I really like the theory posited at the start of this thread. There are a couple of unanswered questions and minor problems as others have noted already, but it really appeals to me and is the best explanation that I have seen for why World 1.0 (if that's what it is) is inside the rift, the snarl doesn't destroy mortal things and people, it just "erases" them somehow or removes them from others perceptions.

Perhaps it DOES actually kill gods, or at least interact with them differently. Perhaps that's why the other gods can remember Zeus and the others. After all, it is "literally born of diefic frustration and hostility" and that "some have theorised since that gods were even MORE vulnerable to the Snarl than a mortal of the same level would have been" (Strip 274 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html)) so it might affect gods differently to mortals. Also in the same strip

I Can't wait to find out !

[Gandariel]

you know what? i still think it's a joke.

Want another example?

strip 281, last panel.
why does beklar know about fascism?
maybe the Snarl has projected that idea in his mind?
maybe fascists are in the other world which the Snarl has connected and then ...
cm on!!! you don't have to take litterally every single word written here...

[Roc Ness]

Would this have anything to do with the MitD not seeing the gate?

[Atrec Randier]

"some have theorised since that gods were even MORE vulnerable to the Snarl than a mortal of the same level would have been" (Strip 274 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html))

Hmmm, I had forgotten that point. However, this does in fact corrospond nicely with the theory. Remembering that gods are derived in themselves from faith, if they themselves were forgotten they would be destroyed, or something to that effect. The other gods would have remembered them, as they witnessed them die, however this may merely imply there is no erasing/editing a god's memory, and they misinterpreted what they were seeing as a direct attack. After all, if you saw a great abberation reach out to someone and they die, you would surely think they did so directly.

On a side note, I should have been more clear earlier in reference to MitD. I was implying that at some unknown point in the past, the snarl may or may not have had some influence over MitD or the gate. This is of course assuming both that the theory is correct and that it isn't just plain stupidity on MitD's part (the latter being even more unlikely).

[Mc. Lovin']

if it is C, I expect Rich would clear this up in comic in the next few strips... though of course he might not. I can imagine Elan saying something to the effect of "Hmm, just imagine all the conspiracy theories floating around" after the order reveal that they can in fact see blackwing. Possibly as others have said, the raven is setting up some kind of trick.

Roy could see it, as he thought it was an illusion

[Aaron]

anyway, i stick with my idea: it's just a joke...

and, as i said before, i even have a proof... the last things Vaarsuvius says.

Imagine if really the Snarl had canceled the memory on all other people about Blackwing; at the end of the strip, Vaarsuvius wouldn't be angry, she would be... i don't know.. curious... certainly, she would TRY TO UNDERSTAND why other people didn't recognise Blackwing.
But she doesn't


Instead, she gets angry, in some ways aknowledging that they don't recognise Blackwing because they're just stupid. (and here is the joke..)

Correct! It's just a joke. However, it has been about 10 months since the party was split in Azure City.

Though it would be funny if in the next few comics, when the party is done shoping, that they were joking about not remembering Blackwing (except for Belkar, cause he doesn't pay attention).

:haley: Hey, we were just messing with you.:smallbiggrin:

[Gandariel]

wow!! finally someone agrees with me!!

theory: it's just a joke => 2

contorted theory about how the snarl cancels the memory of people who it has never been in contact with => 2352

[Trobby]

People seem to remember Kraagor just fine.


Girard: "Actually, I'm pretty sure that's exactly what will happen. Isn't that right, Soon?" (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0276.html)

In fact, nobody knows ANYTHING about The Order of the Scribble, except for The Sapphire Guard and The Order of the Stick. And he's supposed to be pretty famous.

In fact, the whole "purging of knowledge" that The Sapphire Guard did over their tenure as guardians of the gate may have been entirely pointless, as knowledge of its existence might have faded away even without their interference.

[Gift Jeraff]

In that instance, Xykon was destroyed by the sigil on the gate, not by the Snarl, as Xykon was destroyed in a purple energy, not by a claw (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html).
While, yes, he was destroyed by Dorukan's sigil and not the Snarl, I always figured that the claws and face of the Snarl were just there for aesthetic reasons.

[Zanaril]

People seem to remember Kraagor just fine.

How the Order of the Scriblle remember him dying may not have been correct.

Or maybe they changed the details on purpose...

[Malkar Grumbo]

How the Order of the Scriblle remember him dying may not have been correct.

Or maybe they changed the details on purpose...

Maybe it only undoes people and erases their memory if they fall in. I mean Soon's Wife is also remembered, because she was killed outside the hole and did not fall in.