What's the problem, now? [Archive] - Giant in the Playground Forums

Kish

2009-09-02, 03:34 PM

Two differences. Mr. Scruffy has never blinked out because Belkar was ignoring him. And Belkar did not claim, when Mr. Scruffy joined them, that he had always been there. You'll note that Belkar first asked, "When did you get a familiar?" If Vaarsuvius had replied, "In the last strip," that would have been the end of it.

Whether it makes sense for all the Order, especially Haley, to forget Blackwing is another question.

NerfTW

2009-09-02, 03:38 PM

It's a joke. V's horrible personality flaw is actually what ALL player characters do. It's not a problem, it's just a joke about how the Order doesn't pay attention any more than V was.

The Dark Fiddler

2009-09-02, 04:04 PM

ps. It was actually there when V turned into a lizard. It tried to eat him.

:haley: "Yeah, where was this alleged raven when you were turned into a lizard?"
:belkar: "Or when you were attacked by that death knight?"
:vaarsuvius: "But- but he was actually THERE for those events!"

Optimystik

2009-09-02, 04:14 PM

It was a joke against players I think, but unfortunately I have to say this one fell a bit flat. I hope it doesn't become a running gag.

Unless, as David theorized, it really does have something to do with the bird glancing into the rift.

Cleverdan22

2009-09-02, 04:20 PM

Unless, as David theorized, it really does have something to do with the bird glancing into the rift.

I kinda doubt that, as Roy acknowledged seeing the "crow" there, just thinking that it was an illusion.

Optimystik

2009-09-02, 04:37 PM

I kinda doubt that, as Roy acknowledged seeing the "crow" there, just thinking that it was an illusion.

So do I, but as the alternative is Haley being a gibbering idiot for the sake of a gag (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharacterDerailment), we have to theorize these things.

Cleverdan22

2009-09-02, 04:38 PM

No it doesn't. I dunno, I liked the joke. Maybe because I just played my wizard in a game a couple of days ago, and this basically happened.

Kurald Galain

2009-09-02, 04:38 PM

:belkar: "Or when you were attacked by that death knight?"
:vaarsuvius: "But- but he was actually THERE for those events!"
Also, and I'm sure this has been pointed out before, Belkar was actually not there and has no way of knowing that event actually happened.

Anyway, the two members of the Order that get along least are now in the possession of, respectively, a cat and a bird. Gee, I wonder what's going to happen with that :smallbiggrin:

Lord Loss

2009-09-02, 04:39 PM

I think the snarl/otherworld/??? wiped him from memory of the others. See title of comic

Katana_Geldar

2009-09-02, 06:02 PM

Mant

2009-09-02, 06:10 PM

http://plaza.ufl.edu/neoseph/tykkimikk92x120.png

I have to say it, this is one of the most disgusting things i've seen on the net

The Dark Fiddler

2009-09-02, 06:12 PM

I am wondering if Blackwing has cast some sort of spell on the whole party, as doesn't he share V's level? V does say at the very end "Quickly please, before they are all out of range."

What made me doubt it was a joke on V was the fact that ELAN was in on it too.

No, that's V asking for an explanation as to why he cannot just rain Arcane Destruction down on them, and she wants to explanation ASAP.

Spiky

2009-09-02, 06:40 PM

I think the snarl/otherworld/??? wiped him from memory of the others. See title of comic

How does the title match to that? The title suggests they are all playing a prank on V, pretending not to remember BW.

Katana_Geldar

2009-09-02, 06:44 PM

Even Elan? That had me wondering if it was a prank.

Kish

2009-09-02, 06:46 PM

Katana_Geldar

2009-09-02, 06:55 PM

V hasn't exactly lied, but he had (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0645.html) concealed (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0648.html) the truth (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html) from the order (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0667.html)

In addition, three characters know there is something fishy going on: Belkar, Roy and Eugene. But Roy has the most incomplete information and the only one of the three who would be morally obligated to do something.

Optimystik

2009-09-02, 07:06 PM

What the title suggests to me is that they don't believe Vaarsuvius because Vaarsuvius has previously lied to them. Which makes very little sense, since I don't remember Vaarsuvius lying to the rest of the order, certainly not anywhere near as often as Roy, Haley, or Belkar. But that's all I get from the title.

I think you're on to something... every other time V has "summoned" Blackwing, he did so with a phrase along the lines of "my trusty familiar, who has naturally been by my side this entire time." So now, when Blackwing is actually and visibly by his side... is the time that he is truly beneath the notice of the others?

Like I said, this one fell quite flat for me. Roy, Belkar, Elan, even Durkon have excuses, but Rich shouldn't have let Haley participate in the tomfoolery.

Nimrod's Son

2009-09-02, 07:45 PM

http://plaza.ufl.edu/neoseph/tykkimikk92x120.png

I have to say it, this is one of the most disgusting things i've seen on the net
Man, that's not even in my top five thousand.

Optimystik

2009-09-02, 08:01 PM

In addition, three characters know there is something fishy going on: Belkar, Roy and Eugene. But Roy has the most incomplete information and the only one of the three who would be morally obligated to do something.

Well, Haley does too really, though Belkar talked her out of it. It might come up later; after all, she's already connecting his strange behavior to his "uber-spell." It's not a huge leap from there to questioning him about it.

kpenguin

2009-09-02, 08:15 PM

Bird? What bird?

Cleverdan22

2009-09-02, 10:01 PM

I think that the title probably has nothing to do with the nature of why the Order doesn't remember Blackwing. Just a simple play on the boy who cried wolf. We shouldn't be reading so much into comic TITLES, now no? I mean, the Giant practically has every one as a reference to something or other; after 674 comics, it would get kinda difficult just to find something that matches with the comic.

Optimystik

2009-09-02, 10:28 PM

I think that the title probably has nothing to do with the nature of why the Order doesn't remember Blackwing. Just a simple play on the boy who cried wolf. We shouldn't be reading so much into comic TITLES, now no?

But that's the problem. When has V lied about his Raven before? So why would they disbelieve him now? Especially since doing so relies on Haley suddenly developing laser-guided amnesia for no real reason, and blunt Durkon being oddly solicitous.

Morquard

2009-09-02, 11:36 PM

Blackwing always vanished when EVERYONE was ignoring him.
That he actually vanished when V stopped paying attention means that everyone else had stopped long before that.
Remember when it was Haley that mentioned BW, he appeared (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0178.html)? Of course you could argue that due to her naming him, V actively thought about BW and that's why he popped up, but the other one makes more sense.

So everyone's been totally ignoring BW all the time.

And he was really THERE at both events, he tried to eat V once and said "screw you" the other time :)

SPoD

2009-09-03, 02:15 AM

While the moral of "The Boy Who Cried Wolf" is against lying, think instead about the actual structure of the story: when the boy doesn't need help, the townspeople come running, but when he really needs their help, they don't respond. It's a reversal.

The same thing is happening to V: when he didn't care that anyone noticed his raven, they did. When he starts to care, they don't. It's not for the same reason; V didn't lie about anything. But it definitely counts as V expecting them to continue acting the same way (that is, acknowledging the raven) when they surprise him and suddenly don't.

Evil DM Mark3

2009-09-03, 04:12 AM

I think we may be overannalysing the title of the comic. The Boy Who Cried Wolf is a very famoust tale about a person, an animal and an assumption of lies. The same is true of the comic. V, Blackwing and the party's disbelief.

Murdim

2009-09-03, 04:20 AM

Rustic Dude

2009-09-03, 05:49 AM

Wasn't there a theory about Crystal's dagger being cursed and the cause of her moronity ?

I'd love that being true.

Chekov's dagger of anti-intelligence.

Optimystik

2009-09-03, 09:08 AM

Wasn't there a theory about Crystal's dagger being cursed and the cause of her moronity ?

That would be a delightful bit of karma, but she seemed fast enough on the uptake vs. Pig-Tails...

The Dark Fiddler

2009-09-03, 09:12 AM

That would be a delightful bit of karma, but she seemed fast enough on the uptake vs. Pig-Tails...

Wouldn't that be Wisdom rather than Intelligence? Sense Motive and Spot?

Optimystik

2009-09-03, 09:45 AM

Wouldn't that be Wisdom rather than Intelligence? Sense Motive and Spot?

From a mechanical standpoint yes, but would someone moronic have thought of the note? We're getting into "roleplaying attributes" territory, but Crystal and Elan seem to do that quite well.

Kaytara

2009-09-03, 10:09 AM

So do I, but as the alternative is Haley being a gibbering idiot for the sake of a gag (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CharacterDerailment), we have to theorize these things.

If it's Character Derailment, then it wouldn't be the first time.

413 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html): H: "And all your lizard guys have those little battleaxes, so you're fine."
Hinjo: "They don't have battleaxes because they're not lizardfolk! They're archers!"
Haley: "Oh, right, I forgot. You really should have them, like, labeled or something."

432a (http://apegames.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=GIPOTS03&Category_Code=OOTSB): Soldier: "Our arrows are barely hurting them!"
H: "Try throwing your axes at them!"
Soldier: "For the last time, those were just the miniatures! We don't have axes!"
H: "Oh, right!"

(While discussing how to get into the throne room and surprise Xykon)
463 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html): H: "...and then Elan and I knock on the front door dressed as wandering cheese sellers."

With three instances of Haley seemingly sacrificing her intelligence for the sake of a gag, I'd say it's all just further characterisation and Haley has always had a ditzy side. Spending time with Elan probably brings it out more.

Also, and I'm sure this has been pointed out before, Belkar was actually not there and has no way of knowing that event actually happened.

That's a loaded claim. :smallconfused: Why would he have no way of knowing? He may have heard it mentioned by eye-witnesses during his long stay in Azure City afterwards. Better yet, he may have simply seen the whole thing from his incredibly convenient vantage point in the form of a hill of hobgoblin corpses.

Optimystik

2009-09-03, 10:38 AM

If it's Character Derailment, then it wouldn't be the first time.

I saw you cite the miniatures incident before, but that's plainly different. Hinjo may not have labelled the figurines, but SHE'S the one that labelled Blackwing.

The "cheese sellers" bit isn't as silly as you think. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0368.html)

With three instances of Haley seemingly sacrificing her intelligence for the sake of a gag, I'd say it's all just further characterisation and Haley has always had a ditzy side. Spending time with Elan probably brings it out more.

Her intelligence, I can buy, but her memories too? And even assuming she has neither, automatically assuming V is going cuckoo when she's trusted him before? It's definitely derailment.

Ancalagon

2009-09-03, 10:56 AM

I think it's simply "for the sake of the joke", the difference here now simply is that the other jokes (with the miniatures) were really, really good, but this one here, to use Xykon's words, isn't A-material.
In the first cases, we were very quick to forgive it's not making any sense at all (because the jokes really were good). Until Haley shows to be more demented, you really should let this drop. Really, they cannot all be A-material.

I think the real problem here isn't that Haley faced some derailment for the sake of the joke but that we do not "read" the comic and enjoy every cool joke that's there (and forget about those that were not that good) but that we "read and look for the next cool thing", so everything that's not "a very cool thing" jumps out and screams "I'm not the awesome punch line you were looking for".

More reading and enjoying, less explicit searching for the cool thing, I'd say. Enjoy the A-material, see the B-material, ignore the C-material (at least the parts you, *personally* think that are failed jokes)... and it'll be all better in the end.

Tass

2009-09-03, 11:06 AM

I know others have said close to the same thing before, but I am going to say it anyway so that I can quote myself when I turn out to be right :p :

It is a joke that the order is playing on V. They probably planned it on the boat, to make it the first time BW was mentioned. In the next strip we are going to see them laughing about it.

GSFB

2009-09-05, 11:37 PM

I think everyone is overanalyzing this. All this is, to me, is a basic joke on the typical gamer gag of the familiar (or animal companion or whatever) that a player totally forgets about until someone says "wait a minute, what about that bird?" and then someone else says "oh yeah, that bird should have been with us the whole time" and then the player says "um... actually, my character would have remembered to use his familiar, so that last five minutes of absolute disaster should have been different."

To which a good DM should say "tough." Or "your bird just flies back to you, having been away having a snack out in the woods for the last five minutes." Or, "what bird?"

This is just a joke. The butt of the joke is every player that forgets or underutilizes an animal. That is all.

Le Piaf

2009-09-08, 08:23 AM

as for cheese sellers,
the reason is: hobgoblins LOVE gouda (mentioned a few times in the comic)

Carnivorous_Bea

2009-09-08, 10:08 AM

Yep, overanalysis, as far as I can see. It's just mockery of the situation where the familiar is forgotten by everybody in an RPG session except at the moment when they need it. Nothing deep, nothing significant, just a gag about gamers' inability to remember that things in-game exist except when they actually need them. And a fairly funny one, at that, IMO. :smallwink:

Trobby

2009-09-08, 01:43 PM

Blackwing always vanished when EVERYONE was ignoring him.
That he actually vanished when V stopped paying attention means that everyone else had stopped long before that.

...So we have a bird who may or may not exist, and once you're looking at him, he either does or does not?

...Mr. Scruffy would like to have a word regarding Blackwing's infringement on a certain quantum theory copywright.

Shrodenger's Cat, in case you didn't catch on.

Heh...but in all seriousness, I think it's a bit too weird for it just to be a joke. I'm pretty sure the "joke" here is that V genuinely thinks that they just don't care, and it frustrates him to no end. This is just a bit too detailed to be a throwaway joke.

RecklessFable

2009-09-08, 05:09 PM

The important question here is "What gender is Blackwing?"

The Extinguisher

2009-09-08, 05:19 PM

No, the important question is whether keeping Blackwing around is morrally justified.

Acero

2009-09-08, 06:38 PM

If it's Character Derailment, then it wouldn't be the first time.

413 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0413.html): H: "And all your lizard guys have those little battleaxes, so you're fine."
Hinjo: "They don't have battleaxes because they're not lizardfolk! They're archers!"
Haley: "Oh, right, I forgot. You really should have them, like, labeled or something."

432a (http://apegames.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=GIPOTS03&Category_Code=OOTSB): Soldier: "Our arrows are barely hurting them!"
H: "Try throwing your axes at them!"
Soldier: "For the last time, those were just the miniatures! We don't have axes!"
H: "Oh, right!"

(While discussing how to get into the throne room and surprise Xykon)
463 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0463.html): H: "...and then Elan and I knock on the front door dressed as wandering cheese sellers."

With three instances of Haley seemingly sacrificing her intelligence for the sake of a gag, I'd say it's all just further characterisation and Haley has always had a ditzy side. Spending time with Elan probably brings it out more.

If Elan can be smart and somewhat usefull at times, an other character is allowed to slack off on the paying attention and act a little stupid every once in a while...

Optimystik

2009-09-08, 07:03 PM

If Elan can be smart and somewhat usefull at times, an other character is allowed to slack off on the paying attention and act a little stupid every once in a while...

Being ditzy and having Alzheimer's are two different things. Not to mention it also requires her to disbelieve V, something she just isn't likely to do considering her level of faith in/friendship with him.

...Or rather, wouldn't be likely to do, had her character not been shunted off the rails for a fairly weak gag. I think the scene would have been more powerful if she at least had walked away before all the "Bird? What bird?" nonsense began.

Acero

2009-09-08, 07:10 PM

Being ditzy and having Alzheimer's are two different things.

who said any member has Alzheimer's

I think the scene would have been more powerful if she at least had walked away before all the "Bird? What bird?" nonsense began.

Bird? What Bird? (Gate? What Gate?)

Darius1020

2009-09-08, 07:40 PM

No one remembers Blackwing because, like Roy said, "They are the only team for which AD&D stands for attention deficit disorder (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0325.html)"

Trobby

2009-09-08, 09:26 PM

No, the important question is whether keeping Blackwing around is morrally justified.

...

*High Five*

David Argall

2009-09-08, 09:57 PM

The important question here is "What gender is Blackwing?"
154 & 155 establish Blackwing as male.

While we are on the subject, #3 features Belkar as knowing better than V that V had a familiar.

Liwen

2009-09-08, 10:06 PM

http://plaza.ufl.edu/neoseph/tykkimikk92x120.png

I have to say it, this is one of the most disgusting things i've seen on the net

Actually, I find his Avatar much better than the old one, all in black and white and only showing the face of his character (what character is it anyway? Or is this an original piece of art?) And it's in OOTS art style now! :smallbiggrin: