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LibraryOgre
2009-09-02, 05:12 PM
So, I was thinking about it, and I can make a +10 shield. The cost? 97,000 gold.

How? +5 shield with +5 defending shield spikes.

Milskidasith
2009-09-02, 05:13 PM
{Scrubbed}

The Rose Dragon
2009-09-02, 05:17 PM
Of course, by RAW, only swords can have Defending.

Also, you have to actually attack with the spikes to make use of the Defending property.

sofawall
2009-09-02, 05:21 PM
Of course, by RAW, only swords can have Defending.

Also, you have to actually attack with the spikes to make use of the Defending property.

Ok, in that other thread about Defending, I said it'd be a flamefest or die right away? I apply that here as well.

Also, The Rose Dragon has successfully brought up the two biggest points of contention...

Milskidasith
2009-09-02, 05:25 PM
Of course, by RAW, only swords can have Defending.

Also, you have to actually attack with the spikes to make use of the Defending property.

I'm just going to say that for the first part, that level of RAW is the kind that says Sorcerers have to be female because it has them listed as "she" when mentioning the class features.

But yeah, it's going to be a flamefest.

Andras
2009-09-02, 06:44 PM
A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn.

Moderate abjuration; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, shield or shield of faith; Price +1 bonus.

What's this about swords only?

Signmaker
2009-09-02, 06:51 PM
What's this about swords only?

Reread your quotage. :smallsmile:

Skorj
2009-09-02, 06:54 PM
What's this about swords only?

I don't see the spikes thing as any different from a defending weapon in the left hand. Is "defending" a deflection bonus in 3.5? Deflection bonuses don't stack, right, and you'd likely already have a bonus from other gear?

This actually seems quite reasonable to me.

Stegyre
2009-09-02, 06:56 PM
What's this about swords only?

Here:

Originally Posted by srd
A defending weapon allows the wielder to transfer some or all of the sword’s enhancement bonus to his AC as a bonus that stacks with all others. As a free action, the wielder chooses how to allocate the weapon’s enhancement bonus at the start of his turn before using the weapon, and the effect to AC lasts until his next turn.

Moderate abjuration; CL 8th; Craft Magic Arms and Armor, shield or shield of faith; Price +1 bonus.
Considering (a) the emphasis on "weapon," which you already bolded, and (b) the fact that many, if not all, non-sword weapons can be used defensively IRL (dagger/main gauche, quarterstaff, etc.), this claim of "RAW" really looks like just bad editing. :smallsigh:

Looking at the description, I do not even see a requirement that the defending bonus is only available on an attack action. Compare the above with the description for Combat Reflexes:

When you use the attack action or the full attack action in melee, . . .
But somehow I suspect that these arguments have already been hashed repeatedly.

Ponce
2009-09-02, 06:57 PM
Defending is a dodge bonus that stacks with all other sources. The shield/armour spikes trick works, as far as I know.

If you're a cleric, you just cast greater magic weapon rather than enchant them up to maximum.

SoD
2009-09-02, 06:59 PM
I don't see the spikes thing as any different from a defending weapon in the left hand. Is "defending" a deflection bonus in 3.5? Deflection bonuses don't stack, right, and you'd likely already have a bonus from other gear?

This actually seems quite reasonable to me.

But if you're getting +5 deflection from your shield, in addition to +5 shield enhancement (and presumable an addition +2 from it being a heavy shield), you would presumable ditch the ring of protection +2 and use the item slot for something more useful.

Cieyrin
2009-09-02, 06:59 PM
Technically, you don't actually need spikes on a shield to enchant as a weapon. You can just enchant your shield also as a weapon.

EDIT:
Defending is a dodge bonus that stacks with all other sources. The shield/armour spikes trick works, as far as I know.

If you're a cleric, you just cast greater magic weapon rather than enchant them up to maximum.

Defending provides an unnamed bonus, unless there was some errata somewhere along the line that changed that that I completely missed. Also, wizards and sorcerers get GMW a level earlier, so it's a bit more economical to have them on enchant duty and let the healbot use his 4th level spell for some Divine Power or Freedom of Movement.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-02, 07:02 PM
Defending is a dodge bonus that stacks with all other sources. The shield/armour spikes trick works, as far as I know.
No, by RAW, defending is a bonus that stacks with all others when it's on swords. Defending on anything else doesn't stack.

SoD
2009-09-02, 07:03 PM
No, by RAW, defending is a bonus that stacks with all others when it's on swords. Defending on anything else doesn't stack.

Fine then. Make one of the shield spikes a small, or even tiny sized short sword enchanted with defending.

Skorj
2009-09-02, 07:09 PM
But if you're getting +5 deflection from your shield, in addition to +5 shield enhancement (and presumable an addition +2 from it being a heavy shield), you would presumable ditch the ring of protection +2 and use the item slot for something more useful.

Ahh, I see defending weapons are untyped bonus, which has always been a bit of a hole. Nevertheless, this only increases AC, right? I still don't see a problem - fighters (by the time they have 100K to blow on a shield) die when they fail a Will save, for the most part. An extra +5 AC just doesn't seem that useful, even if it's a bit cheesy.

Actually, I like this quite a bit: it's a bit of a dodgy rules reading, but clearly it wouldn't work for an animated shield. Anything that encourages the occasionaly sword-and-board fighter would be a relief.

Cieyrin
2009-09-02, 07:11 PM
No, by RAW, defending is a bonus that stacks with all others when it's on swords. Defending on anything else doesn't stack.

If you want to be that hard ass about it, by RAW Defending can't be put on anything, as there's no such weapon as a sword. There are greatswords, longswords, short swords and bastard swords but no swords. Heck, by that logic, you couldn't put it on a rapier, either, since it's not a sword.

Milskidasith
2009-09-02, 07:13 PM
And most classes have to be hermaphrodites because it refers to their features with he or she.

Mongoose87
2009-09-02, 07:19 PM
And most classes have to be hermaphrodites because it refers to their features with he or she.

I know all of my characters are.

The Rose Dragon
2009-09-02, 07:20 PM
And most classes have to be hermaphrodites because it refers to their features with he or she.

It always refers to them with one specific sex throughout the entire description, actually.

Which is annoying, since the proper use when you don't want to assume a sex is using "he".

But I digress. The sword part was mostly a joke about this frequently brought up example of WotC editing (read: no editing). The important part is that you have to use your weapon to gain the defending bonus.

SoD
2009-09-02, 07:24 PM
It always refers to them with one specific sex throughout the entire description, actually.

Which is annoying, since the proper use when you don't want to assume a sex is using "he".

But I digress. The sword part was mostly a joke about this frequently brought up example of WotC editing (read: no editing). The important part is that you have to use your weapon to gain the defending bonus.

Does it specify you need to use your weapon as a weapon? Otherwise you could say that your enchanted shield is being used, albeit as a shield. Heck, you could say that you're using it for anything.

*barbarian charges wizard, who is writing on a scroll, and swings his greataxe wildly. It misses*
Barbarian; "Huh? How did I miss?"
Wizard; "Oh, this is a pencil of defending +5. I'm using it to write."
Barbarian; "Oh. That doesn't really make sense..."

Skorj
2009-09-02, 07:24 PM
The important part is that you have to use your weapon to gain the defending bonus.

That does seem to be the important part. Shield spikes? Sure, it's a weapon you use, seems reasonable. Armor spikes? Maybe not. Animated shield? Definitely not.

Really, +5 defendng shield spikes as the only defending weapon being used by the character seems totally legit. Stacking multiple defending bonuses is a problem orthagonal to shield spikes.

Indon
2009-09-02, 07:28 PM
No, by RAW, defending is a bonus that stacks with all others when it's on swords. Defending on anything else doesn't stack.

By RAW, Defending doesn't function without DM ruling, because it doesn't specify which sword it draws enhancement bonus from.

It is never demonstrated that 'the sword' is the enchanted weapon, and no other alternative is specified.

In fact, it's a null pointer and likely crashes the D&D game when you try to use that feature.


Barbarian; "Oh. That doesn't really make sense..."

Of course it does. It means the pencil is so powerful that if the Wizard hit with it, it'd get +5 to hit and damage - in fact making it the most potent pencil ever wielded.

erikun
2009-09-02, 07:35 PM
I've always liked my +5 Bashing, +5 Defending large shields (+ spikes). 2d6 base damage, improvable by size increases, and able to be wielding two-handed for 1.5x Strength bonus. Who needs swords! :smalltongue:

But yeah, I generally rule you need to attack with the weapon to get the Defending bonus. Otherwise, you could get another +5 AC from Defending armor spikes, and another from a Defending Helmet of Headbashing, and another from the Codpiece of Defending....

Cieyrin
2009-09-02, 07:38 PM
Of course it does. It means the pencil is so powerful that if the Wizard hit with it, it'd get +5 to hit and damage - in fact making it the most potent pencil ever wielded.

THAT pen is mightier than the sword.:smallbiggrin:

EDIT:
... another from the Codpiece of Defending....

But I need that Codpiece of Defending for defending my more sensitive parts.:smalleek:

The Glyphstone
2009-09-02, 07:38 PM
Can we consider each spike on the shield to be a separate Fine or Diminutive-sized sword?

LibraryOgre
2009-09-02, 08:07 PM
Of course it does. It means the pencil is so powerful that if the Wizard hit with it, it'd get +5 to hit and damage - in fact making it the most potent pencil ever wielded.

And mighter, indeed, than a number of swords.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-02, 08:12 PM
THAT pen is mightier than the sword.:smallbiggrin:

EDIT:

But I need that Codpiece of Defending for defending my more sensitive parts.:smalleek:

What about a pen that is also a sword: does that weaken or strengthen it to be both?

Curmudgeon
2009-09-02, 08:20 PM
What about a pen that is also a sword: does that weaken or strengthen it to be both?
Neither; it just boosts the price for a double weapon.