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EnnPeeCee
2009-09-03, 01:26 AM
I'm trying to put together a character idea I have for a skill-monkey type character, but am finding that rogue just doesn't fit it as well as I'd like. I'm essentially going for someone who is prepared for every situation, generally with skills or items. As such, this will not be a combat focused character, although it would be nice to be capable.

More or less, I like rogues, but the sneak attack aspect of them really doesn't fit what I have in mind. A scout isn't what I'm looking for. I looked at Factotum, but I don't really want to deal with them. I'm considering taking the variant for rogues that gives them fighter feats instead of sneak-attack, which I know isn't very optimal, but would help fuel things like disarm.

Any thoughts on other base classes I could use? Really, I'm only interested in classes with the most skill points available to them.

rezplz
2009-09-03, 01:27 AM
I hear that commoner is a very balanced class that can successfully compete at any role if they are specialized correctly.


:D :D :D :D

Doc Roc
2009-09-03, 01:28 AM
I hear that commoner is a very balanced class that can successfully compete at any role if they are specialized correctly.


:D :D :D :D

You'd be stunned what I can do with a commoner.

My favorite skill monkey classes are:

Factotum, particularly with font of inspiration.
Swordsage

My Favorite skill monkey PrC is:

Chameleon
Iaijatsu Master

Kylarra
2009-09-03, 01:30 AM
How about a beguiler?

rezplz
2009-09-03, 01:30 AM
You'd be stunned what I can do with a commoner.

With the right magic items and feats and splat books I'm sure anything could be game breaking D:!

Emy
2009-09-03, 01:31 AM
Factotum really does sound like what you're looking for. What about them did you not want to "deal with"?

Some other options: Spellthief/Wizard/Unseen Seer, Beguiler, Cloistered Cleric, Expert.


I hear that monk is a very balanced class that can successfully compete at any role if they are specialized correctly.


:D :D :D :D

fix'd :D


With the right magic items and feats and splat books I'm sure anything could be game breaking D:!

The splat books and feats are unnecessary.

dspeyer
2009-09-03, 01:34 AM
What is it about Factotum that you don't like?

Might a spellcaster (beguiler, bard, virtuoso) serve you well?

rezplz
2009-09-03, 01:34 AM
Factotum really does sound like what you're looking for. What about them did you not want to "deal with"?

Some other options: Spellthief/Wizard/Unseen Seer, Beguiler, Cloistered Cleric, Expert.



fix'd :D



The splat books and feats are unnecessary.

Monk is SO under-powered compared to commoner ;P.

orly then? Tell me how to be a game-breaking commoner ;D!

Kurald Galain
2009-09-03, 01:35 AM
Any thoughts on other base classes I could use? Really, I'm only interested in classes with the most skill points available to them.

Bard and Beguiler.

Doc Roc
2009-09-03, 01:35 AM
Bards aren't really skill monkeys. Not in actual fact. They have precisely zero Int synergy, for one thing.

EnnPeeCee
2009-09-03, 01:35 AM
How about a beguiler?

They look interesting, although only having 6+ skills saddens me. I'll take a deeper look into them.

Edit: Bard Isn't really what I'm looking for either. Something I forgot to mention is that this isn't going to be a very charismatic character.

And about Factotums: its mostly because they seem to receive a lot of flak for being unbalanced, I haven't done anything more than glance over them, and from what I saw they require a lot of using abilities to gain temporary bonuses. I prefer using constants. =P

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-03, 01:36 AM
Monk is SO under-powered compared to commoner ;P.

orly then? Tell me how to be a game-breaking commoner ;D!Chicken-Infested and/or Leadership and/or Survivor and/or UMD.

rezplz
2009-09-03, 01:38 AM
Chicken-Infested and/or Leadership and/or Survivor and/or UMD.

Um. Explain moar for chicken-infested (whatever it is it sounds silly) and Survivor plz. And isn't UMD not a class skill for commoners? :(

Kylarra
2009-09-03, 01:38 AM
They look interesting, although only having 6+ skills saddens me. I'll take a deeper look into them.Realistically, it's effectively as good or better than the 8 points/lvl as Beguilers have INT based casting anyway.

EnnPeeCee
2009-09-03, 01:42 AM
I edited my last post in case you missed it ^

I suppose my main gripe is that I want to play a rogue, but plan on avoiding main combat, so I feel like the sneak attack along with some of the other rogue abilities would go to waste, and was hoping there was a good alternative to solve this. I really do want to play a rogue...

Eloel
2009-09-03, 01:43 AM
Chicken-Infested gives a commoner 50% chance to get a chicken instead of whatever they're reaching for. Quick Draw + Chicken Infested + Bunch of Daggers = Sooner or later one of the chickens will roll a few nat20s in a row.

Factotum is my favorite skillmonkey too. It has ALL skills as class skills. That's very useful.
(Factotum also gets Int to all Str & Dex related checks, so you can just go Int focused for skillpoint++, instead of Dex. They can also spend an IP to get their Factotum level to any skill check, which again, is greatly useful.)

Kurald Galain
2009-09-03, 01:45 AM
I
I suppose my main gripe is that I want to play a rogue, but plan on avoiding main combat, so I feel like the sneak attack along with some of the other rogue abilities would go to waste,

There's the feat rogue...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantcharacterclasses.htm

Kylarra
2009-09-03, 01:48 AM
I edited my last post in case you missed it ^

I suppose my main gripe is that I want to play a rogue, but plan on avoiding main combat, so I feel like the sneak attack along with some of the other rogue abilities would go to waste, and was hoping there was a good alternative to solve this. I really do want to play a rogue...
Beguilers are essentially rogues with spells instead of sneak attack.

EnnPeeCee
2009-09-03, 01:48 AM
There's the feat rogue...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantcharacterclasses.htm

I did mention that in my first post. I think I'll end up going with that, even though its not exactly what I'm looking for, it'll be useful.

Edit:

Beguilers are essentially rogues with spells instead of sneak attack.

Fluff-wise, they would fit the character. Mechanically though, the beguiler's spells aren't really what I'm looking towards using. I also don't want to be casting heavy. A dip of wizard at most.

dspeyer
2009-09-03, 04:59 AM
You might take another look at factotum. I haven't played one, but I don't think they're unbalanced without FoI abuse or caster gestalt. They're the only pure skillmonkey*, and as such they tend to be best at skills. Everyone else gets either either violent powers, magic, or a combination.

A very different angle you could take is to play a dragon or outsider. Find one with low LA, about the right number of hit dice and a decent class list. Add a small number of class levels in whatever goes well with the racial abilities.

* I'm ignoring expert, which is an NPC class, and exemplar, which is a PrC.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-03, 07:29 AM
I'd go with feat Rogue; I'm sure there are some feats on the Fighter bonus list that could be useful. Add a dip into Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) to get the Knowledge domain and thereby pick up all Knowledges as class skills.

deuxhero
2009-09-03, 07:46 AM
Cloistered Cleric with the Kolbold domain (can anyone link to it for me) is a decent skill monkey.

BooNL
2009-09-03, 07:56 AM
I second the Feat Rogue as well, it does seem to be mostly what you're looking for. Also, isn't there a ACF (maybe PHBII) that replaces sneak attack with something else?

The extra fighter feats from the feat rogue can be used for a lot of things. Maybe taking a point blank shot/precise shot/crossbow sniper just in case your character does get into combat. Which he will, given that this is a DnD game.

Swashbuckler is a social skill monkey, which you're not looking for. Cloistered Cleric and Bard are knowledge skill monkies, which you're not looking for. Scout is basically a rogue with a couple of different abilities...

If you were going for a nature vibe, you could go Ranger or Wilderness Rogue.

Apart from that... I'm stumped...

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-03, 08:12 AM
Um. Explain moar for chicken-infested (whatever it is it sounds silly) and Survivor plz. And isn't UMD not a class skill for commoners? :(

It's not a class skill for monks either, but that's never stopped anyone...

LibraryOgre
2009-09-03, 09:47 AM
Bards aren't really skill monkeys. Not in actual fact. They have precisely zero Int synergy, for one thing.

You know, aside from all the Knowledge skills that they have as class skills. And the class feature of Bardic Knowledge. And the fact that they don't need huge save DCs, meaning their casting stat can be secondary.

Unsurprising to most, I'm going to suggest Bard. Being a core class, there's a lot of non-core material to boost Bards. They have a wide variety of skills available to them, do really well at the skill monkey, and also do well as the face. They can, if they like, skill monkey AND face AND be a competent (though not stellar) combatant fairly easily. With an int-focused fighter, you can go with tripping and disarming... with Weapon Finesse, you can trip, disarm, and the like very effectively with a whip.

Depending on how you want to play him, I'd likely go human (for extra feat and skill point... so useful in skill monkey builds). At 1st level, you might take Able Learner, especially if you are allowed the ACF of Bardic Knack (while I love Bardic Knowledge, it's a very poorly-defined ability). You might also look into Combat Expertise and either Improved Trip (my favorite) or Improved Disarm. I prefer improved Trip to Improved disarm because, while it requires a strength check, it's effective against a wider variety of enemies (i.e. you can trip a zombie, but disarming him usually involves an axe).

Since you're not looking at spell-heavy, a bard also does well... you can easily limit them to out-of-combat spells.

You might also look at a Ranger, especially with either a dip in a class that provides it extra class skills, or the Able Learner feat. It makes for a comfortable skill monkey who is mostly a light fighter.

Hijax
2009-09-03, 10:02 AM
a single factotum dip and able learner will get you all skills as class skills(well, effectively).

Curmudgeon
2009-09-03, 10:10 AM
the Kolbold domain (can anyone link to it for me)
It's here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a).

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-03, 10:37 AM
I would like to secound/third bard ...

Though I disagree with Mark Hall for the reasons

bardic knowledge although good for what the OP is lookign for i would sugest the bardic knack(PHB2 i belive).

I would also suggest playing a human and picking up able learner(Races of Destiny) and jack of all trades(a few places C. Aventurer,etc)...

I would have char at atleast a 15 and i would make int the next priotity. Mabye splash 3 levels of swashbuckler to get into to dmg.. and go from there...

just from human and bard thats 7+int skills and any thing you don't have ranks in gets half your bard level in it. And you have all skills as class skills.
a true skill monkey. If you need Trapfinding class skill dip one of the other classes that have it...

LibraryOgre
2009-09-03, 10:47 AM
Good build, Ragnarok; while I mention Bardic Knack, unless things are specified (and I remember that they are), I tend to keep my suggestions core-only, with some flavoring from other books... never know what's going to be allowed. And I forgot about Jack of All trades... wonderful addition to a bard skill-monkey build.

Doc Roc
2009-09-03, 10:54 AM
Good build, Ragnarok; while I mention Bardic Knack, unless things are specified (and I remember that they are), I tend to keep my suggestions core-only, with some flavoring from other books... never know what's going to be allowed. And I forgot about Jack of All trades... wonderful addition to a bard skill-monkey build.

:: gestures :: I guess my issue with the bard as skill monkey is that they aren't just skill monkeys. They offer much-much more, things that make them actually desirable and interesting to have in a party and things that you may end up gimping if you decide skill monkey means it's time to hammer all your points into int.

Also, I tend to end up with no more than twelve int as a bard, so you may end up really leaning on bardic knack to cover some things. You'll only get around seven or eight skills maxed regularly, and you can't afford to run an item familiar really. On the other hand, Mark is right about bardic knack, and they offer a number of skill-buff spells. I'd take a bard over a feat rogue any day. Feat rogues are pretty unexcellent.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-03, 11:05 AM
:: gestures :: I guess my issue with the bard as skill monkey is that they aren't just skill monkeys. They offer much-much more, things that make them actually desirable and interesting to have in a party and things that you may end up gimping if you decide skill monkey means it's time to hammer all your points into int.

Also, I tend to end up with no more than twelve int as a bard, so you may end up really leaning on bardic knack to cover some things. You'll only get around seven or eight skills maxed regularly, and you can't afford to run an item familiar really. On the other hand, Mark is right about bardic knack, and they offer a number of skill-buff spells. I'd take a bard over a feat rogue any day. Feat rogues are pretty unexcellent.


See that's what I love bards they can make great skill monkeys... Though some people only think skill monkeys are if they have trapfinding.. which i disagree with but what ever... plus the other upside to bards is latter on they can give them selves the skill bonus while doing stuff.. which is great.

LibraryOgre
2009-09-03, 11:05 AM
Here's the thing about the skill-bard, Tidesinger: breadth of ability, not particularly depth.

For example, Perform can usually be a point or two off maximum and work just fine for most uses. A good spread of skills lets you try anything, meaning you're a pretty good skill monkey... you're not able to do everything, every time, without fail, but you've always got the ability to try. Putting a lot of points in intelligence does two things: It boosts your skill points, and it boosts your int-skills. This may seem self-evident, but consider the sheer number of Int-based skills v. other attributes. Int not only gives you points to work with, it gives you a bonus with many of the skills you want, and a couple points spread around means you are trained in skills that you might never again invest in. In the end, skill points outstrip stat bonuses for influence... even at 1st level, it will be rare to have a higher stat bonus than you do skill ranks... and that usually pulls into just parity by 2nd level.

For almost any bard, Int is a better choice as primary than Charisma. Charisma should be secondary, and should get the lion's share of increases (I'd make an exception if I started with a 16 Charisma... at that point, I'd probably dump the lot in Intelligence, especially if I had a skill monkey in mind), but Int should start higher, just for its utility throughout levels.

I'll also add that I hate the "Trapfinding" ability; in core, it simply is there to give Rogues a purpose, to make a rogue dip a requirement for a dungeon-crawling team. I'd rather make it into a feat (which Rogues get as a bonus), or simply have it mean that rogues get a bonus to search when looking for traps (and, perhaps, a commensurate bonus when disarming them).

Lysander
2009-09-03, 11:08 AM
Here's an alternate possibility:

Wizard

Hear me out. Focus entirely on utility spells, like Knock and Spiderclimb so you don't need to put a lot of points in the relevant skills. Carry scrolls to cover for every possible eventuality. You still get a good number of skill points with 18 INT to make up for what your spells can't cover.

And you get to be an uncharismatic smarty pants who avoids combat if that's what you want.

Doc Roc
2009-09-03, 11:08 AM
I disagree on Charisma. I wouldn't take it any lower than 16.

I actually currently play a skill monkey bard in two different campaigns, but my primary task is DFI and minor BC casting, which I just find a lot more enjoyable. The issue is that the OP wants an absolutely pure skill-monkey. Doesn't make any sense to me, but :: shrugs ::

My pick would still be factotum. Bards are wasted if all you do with them is hammer their Int into the heavens.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-03, 11:19 AM
I disagree on Charisma. I wouldn't take it any lower than 16.

I actually currently play a skill monkey bard in two different campaigns, but my primary task is DFI and minor BC casting, which I just find a lot more enjoyable. The issue is that the OP wants an absolutely pure skill-monkey. Doesn't make any sense to me, but :: shrugs ::

My pick would still be factotum. Bards are wasted if all you do with them is hammer their Int into the heavens.

Thats why i sugest a 3 level dip into swashbucklerfor int to dmg plus the dmg boost from Inspire makes him a great back up dmg dealer and realy the character only needs 2 feats for a skill monk jack of all trades and able learner with the bardic knack ability... makes him a good skill monkey the rest of his feats can be devoted else where.

Draz74
2009-09-03, 11:31 AM
I'm a big Factotum fan, especially without the cheese of Font of Inspiration. But he undeniably does use temporary bonuses a lot. (But constant bonuses too. Make sure you don't overlook the Brains over Brawn ability at Level 3 -- many a Rogue cries himself to sleep at night because he doesn't have this feature.)

But if you don't want Factotum, or only Factotum, I'd say it's time to do some multiclassing. Feat-Rogue 2/Bard X or Factotum 3/Bard X could be a lot of fun, with a high INT and a mediocre CHA to make you a little different from the "typical" Bard.

Gnorman
2009-09-03, 05:25 PM
I gotta echo the Factotum love here.

No other class makes you feel like you're playing Indiana Jones, first off, and they get a little bit of divine and arcane power. You're basically a professional dabbler, picking up smatterings of this and that because of your incredibly powerful brain.

Brains Over Brawn, as mentioned, gets you your intelligence bonus permanently added on top of all your Dex and Str-based skills, making you a much more capable acrobat and athlete than the rogue. You get nearly as many skill points, but you're INT-driven rather than DEX, and can afford to be nearly SAD. Your Cunning line may only be temporary, but they're great temporary bonuses: I put a point in practically every single skill just so I can pull it out on the right occasion, boosted to the stratosphere (okay maybe not that high) with Cunning Insight. If you see a save-or-die headed your way, boost the right save. Factotums are really really hard to kill or disable. Eventually you'll be able to dodge a dragon's claws with your mind, ignore a golem's damage reduction with your mind, and learn how to take extra standard actions with your mind (and sure, breaking the action economy is what people usually leverage complaints against the factotum for, but as long as you're cautious about it and don't load up on Font of Inspiration, they're far from broken).

They're not the best contributors in combat, but that may exactly be what you want to avoid. If you do want to contribute, drop a level of Master of Masks in there, turning you into an exotic weapon deposit box, hoarding strange and unusual armaments. Which is really cool. Gigantic antler axes and tigerskull clubs garner you not only decent amounts of damage but a copious reserve of awesome points. Plus there's the whole Iaijutsu Focus + Gnomish Quickrazor debate, but you know what? You don't have to use it if you don't want to.

Levels in Chameleon make you even more versatile, allowing you to not just be a skill monkey but an everything monkey. It's like being the Jack of All Trades, just like the Bard, only better - instead of a limited amount of buff spells and singing/luting/drumming/orating/dancing, you're an awesome genius. You're the Action Professor. Saving ancient relics, dodging rolling boulders, shooting Nazis, and so forth. Just watch out for snakes. Factotums get a -6 dodge penalty against snakes and serpentine creatures and have to save to avoid being panicked.

EnnPeeCee
2009-09-03, 07:06 PM
I'll take another look into Factotum. Although, there is also the problem with getting them allowed in my group.

I thought about bard, but like I saw mentioned, I wouldn't be using half of the abilities. Unless there is some way to trade the bardic music for something else?

As for wizard, I was planning on taking a dip in it for a few low level spells, but I want to focus in skill-monkeying, not bypassing skill with magic.

Edit: And yes, I am planning on using a human with able learner (and potentially also one level in human paragon for even more skill points)

sonofzeal
2009-09-03, 07:42 PM
And about Factotums: its mostly because they seem to receive a lot of flak for being unbalanced, I haven't done anything more than glance over them, and from what I saw they require a lot of using abilities to gain temporary bonuses. I prefer using constants. =P
They're not unbalanced unless you really try to break them. Even stacking Font of Inspiration just helps them be consistent, and as long as you aren't throwing out half a dozen Cunning Surges in the same turn, you should be fine. They're generally perfectly balanced with Rogues, with advantages and disadvantages on both sides, and Rogues are always a nice baseline level of power for most campaigns.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-03, 07:58 PM
I thought about bard, but like I saw mentioned, I wouldn't be using half of the abilities. Unless there is some way to trade the bardic music for something else?
Partially. The Bardic Sage (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantBardicSage) trades reduced music for more knowledge.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-03, 09:35 PM
Snow flake wardance? Allows you to trade bardic music for cha to dmg?

Curmudgeon
2009-09-03, 09:57 PM
Snow flake wardance? Allows you to trade bardic music for cha to dmg?
So then you'll need something else to trade damage for increased skills, as the OP wants a noncombatant skill monkey. :smallwink:

quick_comment
2009-09-03, 10:00 PM
Factotum into prestige bard.

Thurbane
2009-09-03, 10:08 PM
I've recently discovered the Savant, from the Dragon Compendium. Kind of like a toned down Factotum. Gets 6 skill points/level, with all skills as class skills. Maybe better for a dip than to stick with.

RagnaroksChosen
2009-09-03, 10:25 PM
So then you'll need something else to trade damage for increased skills, as the OP wants a noncombatant skill monkey. :smallwink:

Well actualy between
bardic knack able learner jack of all trades his skills should be good. Hes rolling on any skill he wants... with half his bard level +.5 + ability
that's not bad... and if he wants to get rid of bardic music the best way to funnel it is into snowflake wardance... unless he wants to get creative with what his perform skill is...

Cieyrin
2009-09-03, 11:01 PM
...unless he wants to get creative with what his perform skill is...

Getting creative with Perform is loads of fun. I knew a bard whose Perform was Shadow Puppets, which was quite hillarious.:smallbiggrin:

dspeyer
2009-09-03, 11:49 PM
Cloistered Cleric with the Kolbold domain (can anyone link to it for me) is a decent skill monkey.

Class Skill list:
Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Disable Device (Dex), Diplomacy (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (any) (Int), Profession (Wis), Search (int) and Spellcraft (Int)


Here's an alternate possibility:

Wizard

Hear me out. Focus entirely on utility spells, like Knock and Spiderclimb so you don't need to put a lot of points in the relevant skills. Carry scrolls to cover for every possible eventuality. You still get a good number of skill points with 18 INT to make up for what your spells can't cover.

And you get to be an uncharismatic smarty pants who avoids combat if that's what you want.

Class Skill list:
Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (any) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int)

Notably absent from either: Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, Bluff, Sense Motive, Gather Information, Survival, Use Rope. You can fill in a few gaps in a class skill list using feats or domains, but not this many, and these are some of the most used skills in the game.

Of course, a factotum dip and able learner takes care of this.

Akal Saris
2009-09-04, 12:36 AM
Getting creative with Perform is loads of fun. I knew a bard whose Perform was Shadow Puppets, which was quite hillarious.:smallbiggrin:

That's even better than my mime!

Anyhow, I'll put in like the 10th vote for factotum if you can get it approved. It's a fun class, and it's only as broken as you make it. Besides, isn't this going to be a combat-light game anyways?

Without factotum or a caster, I'd go for a rogue personally, and then PrC into Spymaster or Chameleon or whatever else catches your fancy.

EnnPeeCee
2009-09-04, 12:41 AM
I almost feel like I want to play an Expert, if only it wasn't so sub-par. Are there any good, balanced homebrew improvements to Experts?

Also, how do skill tricks fare? Worth taking? And if so, Uncanny Trickster worth taking?

Curmudgeon
2009-09-04, 12:45 AM
Notably absent from either: Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, Bluff, Sense Motive, Gather Information, Survival, Use Rope. You can fill in a few gaps in a class skill list using feats or domains, but not this many, and these are some of the most used skills in the game.
The best you can do with one more domain (after Knowledge and Kobold) is 3 more class skills. Pact adds Appraise, Intimidate, and Sense Motive; or Trickery adds Bluff, Disguise, and Hide.

Kylarra
2009-09-04, 12:48 AM
I almost feel like I want to play an Expert, if only it wasn't so sub-par. Are there any good, balanced homebrew improvements to Experts?

Also, how do skill tricks fare? Worth taking? And if so, Uncanny Trickster worth taking?See if you can take the Generic Expert (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#expert). Note: they aren't meant to be used in conjunction with normal classes, but if you talk to your DM ahead of time and don't go crazy on the class-ability feat choices, you might be able to pull off a variant rogue like that.

EnnPeeCee
2009-09-04, 12:53 AM
See if you can take the Generic Expert (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#expert). Note: they aren't meant to be used in conjunction with normal classes, but if you talk to your DM ahead of time and don't go crazy on the class-ability feat choices, you might be able to pull off a variant rogue like that.

That does look interesting, but I think sticking with rogue would still be better, even if it doesn't fully fit my guy.

sonofzeal
2009-09-04, 12:59 AM
See if you can take the Generic Expert (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#expert). Note: they aren't meant to be used in conjunction with normal classes, but if you talk to your DM ahead of time and don't go crazy on the class-ability feat choices, you might be able to pull off a variant rogue like that.
+1

Generic classes are great fun, and exactly what they say on the box. You get a bunch of bonus feats, and all the traditional class features are now feat choices, and everything else is fully customizable. You pick your own class skills and your own good saves, and the result is quite fun. My own "Henry the Indestructable" build leans on it heavily, using all those tasty bonus feats for nefarious ends that aren't exactly broken but are certainly highly amusing.

Samb
2009-09-04, 01:06 AM
No one mentioned artificer? Sure only 4+INT each level but INT is the main stat anyways so you'll have plenty of skill points. They have trap sense too!

If there anything you can't do, make an item/homoculus that will do it for you! When I see a nice item on my opponent's belt I send my 2D fletcher to sneak up hhis leg and lift it for me. All types of awesome is artificer and you don't feel like you're a caster, more like an imitator.

EnnPeeCee
2009-09-04, 01:24 AM
No one mentioned artificer? Sure only 4+INT each level but INT is the main stat anyways so you'll have plenty of skill points. They have trap sense too!

If there anything you can't do, make an item/homoculus that will do it for you! When I see a nice item on my opponent's belt I send my 2D fletcher to sneak up hhis leg and lift it for me. All types of awesome is artificer and you don't feel like you're a caster, more like an imitator.

Not really the kind of character I'm looking for.

No one has commented on skill tricks yet. They seem like they'd be helpful.

rezplz
2009-09-04, 01:29 AM
I'm telling you man, play a commoner.

Or a dragon. Yeah, play a dragon!

Myshlaevsky
2009-09-04, 01:32 AM
I'm telling you man, play a commoner.

Or a dragon. Yeah, play a dragon!

Play a Dragon with Commoner levels!1!

rezplz
2009-09-04, 01:33 AM
Play a Dragon with Commoner levels!1!

BEST. SKILL MONKEY. EVER.

Darcand
2009-09-04, 01:34 AM
Edit: Bard Isn't really what I'm looking for either. Something I forgot to mention is that this isn't going to be a very charismatic character.

I know you said no bards, but for a skill monkey class, bard is as good as it gets, due to the fact that every single one of Bard's abilities replaces the need for a skill. Make him human for a bonus skill plus a little bit of an int bonus and he can do absolutely anything you'd like him to do.

Eldariel
2009-09-04, 01:35 AM
I know you said no bards, but for a skill monkey class, bard is as good as it gets, due to the fact that every single one of Bard's abilities replaces the need for a skill. Make him human for a bonus skill plus a little bit of an int bonus and he can do absolutely anything you'd like him to do.

I'd argue that Factotum & Beguiler both perform better.

EnnPeeCee
2009-09-04, 01:35 AM
BEST. SKILL MONKEY. EVER.

Oh heck yeah. Get some profession going on, and maybe some craft too. Yeah, I could see it.

rezplz
2009-09-04, 01:36 AM
Oh heck yeah. Get some profession going on, and maybe some craft too. Yeah, I could see it.

Don't forget skill focus (craft) and skill focus (proffesion)

Draz74
2009-09-04, 01:54 AM
No one has commented on skill tricks yet. They seem like they'd be helpful.

Yep. They're great. Take them.

I've never seen a character that can qualify for all of them, or even all of the Rogue-ish ones. The skills that Rogues often skimp on after a few ranks (Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Escape Artist) are often prerequisites for the craziest skill tricks.

But whichever ones you do qualify for, look over them. See if they seem like they'd be worth two skill points. The answer will often be "yes." Take those ones.

EnnPeeCee
2009-09-04, 02:03 AM
Yep. They're great. Take them.

I've never seen a character that can qualify for all of them, or even all of the Rogue-ish ones. The skills that Rogues often skimp on after a few ranks (Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Escape Artist) are often prerequisites for the craziest skill tricks.

But whichever ones you do qualify for, look over them. See if they seem like they'd be worth two skill points. The answer will often be "yes." Take those ones.

Excellent. That's what I like to see.

Cieyrin
2009-09-04, 12:53 PM
Skill tricks are several flavors of amazing, though you're limited by half your level in number of tricks you can know. The 4 feats for each category will let you learn 2 and raise your limit by 1 and the PRCs certainly help if skill tricks are what you're aiming for.

ericgrau
2009-09-04, 01:06 PM
Caster - arcane or divine - with a bajillion different utility scrolls. Better yet UMD them and get access to all kinds. Marvelous pigments are awesome for making any mundane item with 10 minutes notice. Or - for casters - liberal use of shrink item for carrying them. Knowledge skills are good, as long as you know the rules for them to use them appropriately. Strength pumped whip bards can make nice tripper/disarmers. Ya, I think your best option is a bard, since they get all that and other utility stuff. Plus it's easy to add on stuff like a 1 level rogue dip for trapfinding, the track feat, etc. A 1 level dip into aristocrat gives martial weapon proficiency and survival as a class skill, plus other skills bards don't get. And for the love of my frustration & sanity, make cha a secondary stat.

Diamondeye
2009-09-04, 01:06 PM
Swashbuckler 3/Rogue X/Warblade Y. Select X and Y based on how you want to balance combat versus skills points. Personally I'd prolly go Rogue 3 with Daring Outlaw and then into Warblade.

Ranger 2, 4, or 6/Swordsage X, X-2, or X-4. Zen Archery if you want to go the WIS route. INT probably won't be all that high on this build, although on a 32-point buy you can go 15, 14, 14, 14, 14, 8 with 8 in CHA and still ahve a 14 INT.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-04, 01:27 PM
No Factotum, eh?

Well, let's try this.

Divine Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard) 1/Druid 1/Monk 2/Beguiler 1/Fochlucan Lyrist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=2) 10/Mystic Theurge 5.

You'll need at least a 16 Wis, but that's not a big deal. Focus on Int, primarily. Use your Fochlucan Lyrist and Mystic Theurge levels to advance your Divine Bard and Beguiler spellcasting.

For the majority of your early levels, you're going to be in a weird state of flux: you're a literal "jack of all trades, master of none." You get a couple druid spells, a couple bard spells, some monk abilities, and some beguiler abilities. Once you step into Fochlucan Lyrist, though, it's all gravy: you start double advancing your Divine Bard and Beguiler spellcasting (both lists of which are not very combat heavy but are instead socially or trickery inclined).

If you start with a human with 16 Int, you'll have 40 skill points for your Divine Bard level, 6 for your druid, 8 for your monk, and then back up to 10 for beguiler and all through Fochlucan Lyrist. You'll drop back down to 6 per level once you hit Mystic Theurge, but by that point, you'll have a whole stack of spells as well as a higher Int score.

I know spellcasting isn't quite what you had in mind, but all it really means in this instance is picking and choosing spells which fit with your ideal: think of them less as spells and more as another set of tools in your skillful toolbox.

SirEdward
2009-09-13, 02:11 PM
What, no love for the scout class? They even get something like a sneak attack in skirmish.

SydneyLosstarot
2009-09-13, 02:31 PM
I'm surprised no-one has mentioned Psychic Rogue yet
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b

it has some nice utility powers.

and really, 6+Int skills is more than enough
you'll soon be at a loss as to where to put those 8+Int ranks

Curmudgeon
2009-09-13, 03:51 PM
and really, 6+Int skills is more than enough
you'll soon be at a loss as to where to put those 8+Int ranks
Huh? Maybe you're just not paying attention. There are 45 basic skills (excluding psychic stuff and Iaijutsu Focus), and that's not even getting into the various Craft and Profession options. And cross-class skills cost 2 points per rank.

So 60+INT mod skill points would probably be enough. But 6+? Never.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-13, 04:00 PM
My favorite skillmonkey is a Chameleon with Divine Insight, Improvisation, and Guidance of the Avatar.

Eldariel
2009-09-13, 04:35 PM
Huh? Maybe you're just not paying attention. There are 45 basic skills (excluding psychic stuff and Iaijutsu Focus), and that's not even getting into the various Craft and Profession options. And cross-class skills cost 2 points per rank.

So 60+INT mod skill points would probably be enough. But 6+? Never.

Echoing this. I've played characters with 20 Int and 8+Int/10+Int skills on all levels (the character in question was an old Changeling Rogue) for a short while, and I still wasn't anywhere near having all the skills I wanted maxed. When you even just start to think about everything you'd use without considering the physical movement skills, you'll still be left with a vastly insufficient amount.

Like, 15 skills you want maxed in a Roguish role: Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, Search, Disable Device, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, Knowledge (Local), Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive, Gather Information, Use Magic Device - and that's for just the basic street-savvy Rogue with Use Magic Device being the singular outlier (not one I'd consider archetypal Rogues known, but that's mostly 'cause archetypal Rogues tend to not be in worlds with magic). And that's without even mentioning Disguise, Forgery, Appraise, Escape Artist, Use Rope & co.

Then you add skills you want 5 ranks in such as Balance, Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty), Speak Language, etc., physicals like Climb, Swim, Jump along with generic stuff like a Perform, some Professions, maybe a Craft (if you feel so inclined), other Knowledges (20 Int, would make sense), Ride (c'mon, medieval world, which traveler doesn't know how to ride?), Handle Animal, etc. and we start to see how woefully inadequate 10+Int skills per level is. How the heck are you supposed to give a character skills you feel he should have when he cannot even fulfill basic competencies an archetypal character of his class should have with 20 Int?

Truly, this is why magic, Factotum and Bardic Knack Bard are so excellent on this front; magic enables knowing any skill decently (Divine Insight, Guidance of the Avatar, etc.), Factotum can pull something outta his arse every now and then with an inspiration point (once per day, add Factotum-level to a skill check) along with packing multiple stats for physicals, and Bard has some decent number of ranks in all skills.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-13, 04:39 PM
Is there any way to get Improvisation on a Favored Soul?

TheWerdna
2009-09-13, 04:40 PM
Try a L1 Rogue/ x Artificer. You bacicly use/make a bunch of magic items and use skills.

Take a rogue for level 1 for a large amount of starting skill points and lets you hvae more skills to choose from later.From there take levels of Artificer and maby a second or 3ed level of Rogue

For feats concentrate on crafting items. In the Eberon Champain setting book, there is soem feats to reduce your crafting Gold/XP cost by 25% and this stacks by takeign it multeple times. Take thos to alow you to make more items they you normaly would.

If you are useing in the Eliteist Aray for ability score should be like this
STR:8 DEX:14 CON:10 INT: 18 WIS: 12 CHA: 16.
If not make sure INT and CHA have your highest scores. Raise your Int as you level up (don't waist money on a +int item as it doesn't give you more skill points)

For items, Buy/Make a bunch of scrolls and wands. If you want to be good in skill stuff make your wands be non combat stuff like (dispel magic, detect magic, light, Healing spells, exetra) but make sure you ahev some wands or scrolls for combat. Use scrolls to fill in all the usefull spells you don't have wands for.

The infusions of a Artificers will make you a good suport class, buffing your party members slightly.

Zaq
2009-09-13, 09:15 PM
Here's a new suggestion: Incarnate.

No, really.

Yes, I know they have 2+INT from a relatively small list, but if you want to boost your skill checks, you could do much, much worse than Incarnate soulmelds. Totemists also get some ways to boost skills, but I think Incarnate has a wider breadth of options for skill boosts.

Incarnum plays reasonably well with others (since maximum essentia is based off of character level, not class level or meldshaper level), so since most of the skill-boosting functions come from the basic melds (rather than the binds), just a level or two in Incarnate could be enough, if you can get enough essentia (Disclaimer: there is no such thing as enough essentia) through feats or whatever. I'd recommend going straight-on Incarnate, but even just a couple levels is enough to get some really nice skill boosts when you need them, as long as you have a little foresight and time to prep.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-13, 10:35 PM
Like, 15 skills you want maxed in a Roguish role: Hide, Move Silently, Spot, Listen, Search, Disable Device, Open Lock, Sleight of Hand, Tumble, Knowledge (Local), Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, Sense Motive, Gather Information, Use Magic Device - and that's for just the basic street-savvy Rogue with Use Magic Device being the singular outlier (not one I'd consider archetypal Rogues known, but that's mostly 'cause archetypal Rogues tend to not be in worlds with magic). And that's without even mentioning Disguise, Forgery, Appraise, Escape Artist, Use Rope & co.

Then you add skills you want 5 ranks in such as Balance, Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty) ...
There are yet more skills you'd like to max out. Balance can be used to oppose a trip check; see Complete Adventurer. Since you can boost skill ranks faster than a tripper can boost STR, if you keep Balance maxed out you can become untrippable.

Knowledge Devotion is a nifty feat from Complete Champion that gives you a bonus based on your Knowledge check against various creature types. You get a +5 bonus to attack and damage if you can make 36+ on your Knowlege skill checks related to creature types. So you want to max out all of
Knowledge: Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts)
Knowledge: Dungeoneering (aberrations, caverns, oozes, spelunking)
Knowledge: Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)
Knowledge: Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, seasons and cycles, weather, vermin)
Knowledge: Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead)
Knowledge: The Planes (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, outsiders, elementals, magic related to the planes)

holywhippet
2009-09-13, 11:05 PM
Depending on what skills you are intersted in you could try a ranger. They get 6 + INT bonus skill points per level and get a bunch of different bonuses as they level up. Stealth skills are class skills although the thieving type ones aren't.

EnnPeeCee
2009-09-13, 11:44 PM
I ended up going Rogue 8 / Conjurer 1 / Uncanny Trickster 3, and it worked out pretty well. As I was expecting, I tended not to play much of a role in combat, but that wasn't much of a problem.

Anyway, thanks for the suggestions.

Eldariel
2009-09-14, 01:11 AM
There are yet more skills you'd like to max out. Balance can be used to oppose a trip check; see Complete Adventurer. Since you can boost skill ranks faster than a tripper can boost STR, if you keep Balance maxed out you can become untrippable.

Knowledge Devotion is a nifty feat from Complete Champion that gives you a bonus based on your Knowledge check against various creature types. You get a +5 bonus to attack and damage if you can make 36+ on your Knowlege skill checks related to creature types. So you want to max out all of
Knowledge: Arcana (ancient mysteries, magic traditions, arcane symbols, cryptic phrases, constructs, dragons, magical beasts)
Knowledge: Dungeoneering (aberrations, caverns, oozes, spelunking)
Knowledge: Local (legends, personalities, inhabitants, laws, customs, traditions, humanoids)
Knowledge: Nature (animals, fey, giants, monstrous humanoids, plants, seasons and cycles, weather, vermin)
Knowledge: Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead)
Knowledge: The Planes (the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, outsiders, elementals, magic related to the planes)

Yeah, I was going with just the basics of what I think a Rogue should know. Once you throw in Knowledge Devotion, your skill point requirements increase vastly (which is, IMHO, a good thing as that keeps Knowledge Devotion a fair feat; great bonus for an investment) and there's indeed Balance which isvery useful for you.

And actually, you need Concentration-checks to e.g. pick a lock while attacked, during some natural weather condition or whatever and so on. And I've never seen a straight Rogue with Concentration. You'd think that skill out of all would be universal. And actually, knowing which spell a caster is casting can be exceedingly useful (not to mention the synergies to UMD) so Spellcraft isn't at all useless either. And this is without delving into the psionic counterparts of all these.


Oh, and that's without even thinking about trivial pursuits such as additional Knowledges, Profession, Decipher Script, etc. Not to even mention Skill Tricks! They definitely are "scoundrelly" roguish things and cost you 2 skill points each. So we can conclude that even given 40 skill points per level, there's going to be a lot of variety between different Rogues.

FMArthur
2009-09-14, 01:44 AM
I'm just going to add my voice to the previously mentioned suggestions of bard with Bardic Knack or a reconsideration of factotum (I'm sorry, but it's really hard not to hand you a spoon when you're asking for anything but a spoon to eat soup with).

And since I saw it mentioned more than once in this thread, and because I can't shut up about chameleons and obsess over the class unhealthily, I must say that it is in no way a skillmonkey. 4+Int skills and a very short skill list don't aid skills much, I'm afraid to say. The entry into the class is usually from skillmonkey-types and it requiremes Able Learner (the ultimate multiclass skillmonkey feat), so a chameleon may seem like a skillmonkey for some time after entry, coasting on what it had beforehand, but is otherwise not noteworthy for its skills.

SydneyLosstarot
2009-09-14, 07:58 AM
Huh? Maybe you're just not paying attention. There are 45 basic skills (excluding psychic stuff and Iaijutsu Focus), and that's not even getting into the various Craft and Profession options. And cross-class skills cost 2 points per rank.

So 60+INT mod skill points would probably be enough. But 6+? Never.
sure, you and Eldariel are both right.
i just never considered having points in all useful skills. there have to be some things a character cannot do, for the sake of keeping the game intact and the DM sane.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-14, 08:40 AM
And actually, you need Concentration-checks to e.g. pick a lock while attacked, during some natural weather condition or whatever and so on. And I've never seen a straight Rogue with Concentration.
I think this one can be overlooked. You're only allowed 6 ranks (because it's a cross-class skill) before level 10, which really isn't enough to make a big difference. But at level 10 you can take Skill Mastery as your Rogue special ability.
Skill Mastery

The rogue becomes so certain in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions.

Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. A rogue may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for it to apply to each time. So skip Concentration unless you're multiclassing, since you can still "take 10" on your mastered skills even while being attacked.

Interesting little niche optimization here: nothing prevents you from having a temporary boost to your INT while you're selecting the skills you master. Fox's Cunning can add 2 more skills to your list. (It's still nowhere close to enough, of course. But it doesn't hurt.)

WeeFreeMen
2009-09-14, 08:44 AM
You'd be stunned what I can do with a commoner.

My favorite skill monkey classes are:

Factotum, particularly with font of inspiration.
Swordsage

My Favorite skill monkey PrC is:

Chameleon
Iaijatsu Master

Seconded.
Skill monkeys can do anything asked of them on the skill list correct? (While being good if not excellent at it)
Factotum has All Class skills, is Int based class, gets highest SP possible with (8+Int)x4 : 1st and *+Int / lv.

PrC
Chameleon.
You are Everyone and can do Anything, Sub-par if not better.
(Your a better fighter than the fighter :P )
Plus, Int synergy ALL over the place.

As for my Skill Monkey Feat (Not that you asked but I like to go the extra mile for you ;P)
-Jack of All Trades : Treat all skills as if you had half ranks in them (Because Factotum has ALL skills, thats a long list, so Pump up what you need and let the feat take care of the little stuff.)

:smalltongue:

FMArthur
2009-09-14, 04:37 PM
You usually just enter Chameleon using a skillmonkey class - it is not one itself and does little to aid you in that particular area of expertise. Factotum's the one with skills and huge Int synergy.

woodenbandman
2009-09-14, 06:13 PM
Skillmonkeys surprisingly have the worst skill selection anyway. Between Search, Disable Device, Hide, Spot, Move Silently, Listen, Tumble, Use Magic Device, and Open Lock, they have 2 or 3 skill points to play with, IF they're a Human rogue with 18 int. Most skillmonkeys can't have that luxury. So you're often a few points short. No Knowledges, no Social Skills, no climb, jump, or balance.

And the sad thing is, any other skill allotment and you're a drain on your party. If you can't scout effectively and disable traps, you're not being an effective skillmonkey. You can't really give up anything, since if you know Disable Device, you'll be out in front, meaning you need to hide and detect things. If you know detection skills, you need to be out front detecting things, meaning you want to be undetected and also not fall into any traps. And to be an effective hider, it sure helps to see what you're hiding from.

So already, 7 skill points are BAM, locked in. Then there's Tumble and UMD for being useful in combat. So that's 9 skill points right there meaning if you want more you need to be a human with > 15 int or a Rogue if you want any more.

You can be a rogue without being a trapfinder, but usually you're not, because you're probably the only trapfinder in your party.

EDIT: Jack of All Trades is not as good as Bardic Knack + Improvisation combo. That one combo turns your bard into a skillmonkey supreme with near full ranks in every skill. I personally think it is better than the Factotum with his Inspiration. Factotum is a slightly more powerful class in straight combat though.

woodenbandman
2009-09-14, 06:24 PM
No Factotum, eh?

Well, let's try this.

Divine Bard (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard) 1/Druid 1/Monk 2/Beguiler 1/Fochlucan Lyrist (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a&page=2) 10/Mystic Theurge 5.

You'll need at least a 16 Wis, but that's not a big deal. Focus on Int, primarily. Use your Fochlucan Lyrist and Mystic Theurge levels to advance your Divine Bard and Beguiler spellcasting.

For the majority of your early levels, you're going to be in a weird state of flux: you're a literal "jack of all trades, master of none." You get a couple druid spells, a couple bard spells, some monk abilities, and some beguiler abilities. Once you step into Fochlucan Lyrist, though, it's all gravy: you start double advancing your Divine Bard and Beguiler spellcasting (both lists of which are not very combat heavy but are instead socially or trickery inclined).

If you start with a human with 16 Int, you'll have 40 skill points for your Divine Bard level, 6 for your druid, 8 for your monk, and then back up to 10 for beguiler and all through Fochlucan Lyrist. You'll drop back down to 6 per level once you hit Mystic Theurge, but by that point, you'll have a whole stack of spells as well as a higher Int score.

I know spellcasting isn't quite what you had in mind, but all it really means in this instance is picking and choosing spells which fit with your ideal: think of them less as spells and more as another set of tools in your skillful toolbox.

"Decipher Script 7 ranks, Diplomacy 7 ranks, Gather Information 7 ranks, Knowledge (nature) 7 ranks, Perform (string instruments) 13 ranks, Sleight of Hand 7 ranks, Speak Language (Druidic)"

You do not meet the entry requirements, good sir.

The correct response to this conundrum is Bard6/Druid2/Divine Oracle2/Fochlucan Lyrist 10. Or Druid4/Beguiler3/Bard1/Divine Oracle2/
Foch. Lyrist 10, or some other combo. Heck, shoot for Double 9s, go Bard4/Druid1/Ur-Priest3/Divine Oracle2/Sublime Chord2/Foch.Lyrist 8.

EDIT: An Incarnum Skillmonkey build: Rilkan Rogue3/Incarnate2/Umbral Disciple10. I really really like Umbral Disciple.

Heliomance
2009-09-14, 07:33 PM
With the right magic items and feats and splat books I'm sure anything could be game breaking D:!

Except the Truenamer. The Wizards CO boards threw everything they had at the class, and with all that optimization skill managed to make it playable. not broken, not strong, just playable.

Optimator
2009-09-14, 08:01 PM
I feel the need to bring up Archivist, if only for completeness (seems like every other potential class has been brought up). Int synergy along with 4+int skills per level from a somewhat small pool of class skills. Not a great skill monkey despite having a lot of skill points, but you know... you have magic.

Draz74
2009-09-14, 08:53 PM
Except the Truenamer. The Wizards CO boards threw everything they had at the class, and with all that optimization skill managed to make it playable. not broken, not strong, just playable.

No, actually, his point still stands very nicely. Commoner can be broken with the right skills, feats, items, etc.; and Truenamer is certainly better than Commoner!

(To wit: Truenamer, like any class with Diplomacy as a class skill, is fantastically easy to break the game with through Diplomancy. In fact it's better than most other classes for Diplomancing (although multiclassing is obviously even better), with its Utterances that boost skill checks. Not to mention going into Exemplar and replacing Diplomacy checks with super-optimized Truespeak checks ...)

Heliomance
2009-09-14, 09:04 PM
That's the thing. There is no such thing as a fantastically optimised Truespeak check. The DCs are so high, and the author was so careful to disallow ways to boost it, that the entire combined might of the CO boards managed to get the checks high enough to reliably affect level-appropriate enemies. No higher.

Also, Truenamers can't take Chicken-Infested. Commoners>Truenamers.

Draz74
2009-09-14, 09:14 PM
That's the thing. There is no such thing as a fantastically optimised Truespeak check. The DCs are so high, and the author was so careful to disallow ways to boost it, that the entire combined might of the CO boards managed to get the checks high enough to reliably affect level-appropriate enemies. No higher.

Um. What "ways to boost it" are "disallowed," exactly?

And even if the DCs to use Utterances are "so high," Exemplar lets you use Truespeak checks to achieve Diplomacy results, and Diplomacy DCs are not "so high."

Heliomance
2009-09-14, 09:17 PM
But Diplomacy is easier to boost than Truespeak anyway, so why bother?

Mike_G
2009-09-14, 09:27 PM
Skillmonkeys surprisingly have the worst skill selection anyway. Between Search, Disable Device, Hide, Spot, Move Silently, Listen, Tumble, Use Magic Device, and Open Lock, they have 2 or 3 skill points to play with, IF they're a Human rogue with 18 int. Most skillmonkeys can't have that luxury. So you're often a few points short. No Knowledges, no Social Skills, no climb, jump, or balance.

And the sad thing is, any other skill allotment and you're a drain on your party. If you can't scout effectively and disable traps, you're not being an effective skillmonkey. You can't really give up anything, since if you know Disable Device, you'll be out in front, meaning you need to hide and detect things. If you know detection skills, you need to be out front detecting things, meaning you want to be undetected and also not fall into any traps. And to be an effective hider, it sure helps to see what you're hiding from.

So already, 7 skill points are BAM, locked in. Then there's Tumble and UMD for being useful in combat. So that's 9 skill points right there meaning if you want more you need to be a human with > 15 int or a Rogue if you want any more.



It's not that bad. A lot of skills don't need to be maxxed out forever, like Tumble, where you only need to reliably hit a DC 25, or Climb, where by the time you'd need 10 ranks, you should have access to magic that invalidates the investment. In fact, magic items, feats and even masterwork items go a long way toward keeping your total skill modifiers up

I generally play skillmonkeys, and while I'd always like more points, and I always devote points to Int and generally play human for the extra point, there are always a handful to devote to the "extra" skills.

A lot depends on the campaign and the DM, but I usually "need" to max about five skills, then I keep another 10 or so decent enough to make the expected DC's.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-14, 10:21 PM
It's not that bad. A lot of skills don't need to be maxxed out forever, like Tumble, where you only need to reliably hit a DC 25, or Climb, where by the time you'd need 10 ranks, you should have access to magic that invalidates the investment.
I typically aim at hitting DC 37 for Tumble, with a guaranteed 12 in place of the roll thanks to Savvy Rogue. That lets you Tumble at full speed through two enemies. Full speed rather than half is often the only way to get adequate tactical mobility.

Alternatively you can try to convince your DM that you're going to Tumble at full speed until you get up to enemy squares, and slow down to half speed just as you go through them, but I haven't had much luck at that. :smallannoyed:

Mike_G
2009-09-15, 05:33 AM
I typically aim at hitting DC 37 for Tumble, with a guaranteed 12 in place of the roll thanks to Savvy Rogue. That lets you Tumble at full speed through two enemies. Full speed rather than half is often the only way to get adequate tactical mobility.

Alternatively you can try to convince your DM that you're going to Tumble at full speed until you get up to enemy squares, and slow down to half speed just as you go through them, but I haven't had much luck at that. :smallannoyed:


If you plan to make Tumble your staple move, then sure, invest heavily. I've found being able to hit 25 to be plenty.

Like anything else, you can't specialize in everything. You can be the scout, the disabler, the pickpocket, the face or the melee Rogue. You generally have enough points to be really good at two of these roles, and mediocre at the rest. It's not about maxxing everything as it is about picking a few skills to max, then spreading to cover the others. Social skills expecially generally don't need you to hit an astronomical DC. 10 points is Bluff will put you ahead of anyone except a true Face character.

Person_Man
2009-09-15, 09:28 AM
I'd like to second the idea of strait Incarnate.

Incarnate basically gets a pool of soul energy (Essentia) which you can shift between soulmelds (all day buffs) as a Swift Action. Most soulmelds grant you a bonus to your Skills. In most cases, you end up with Skill modifiers higher then if you had maxed out the Skill ranks. And if you do happen to have ranks in the Skill, then you can hit most DC's quite easily. In addition, you can bind soulmelds to your chakra to gain new powers (some of which rock, and have abilities that are semi-unique to Incarnum).


I also have a build you might want to consider:

Echo the Active:

Human Factotum (forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=791436) 3/Warblade (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2) 2/Chameleon (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20041210b&page=1) 5/Warblade 3

At this ECL you get:

+8 BAB
All Skills as Class Skills
Int bonus applied to tons of different checks (Str/Dex Skills, Trip/Bull Rush/Disarm/Grapple, critical confirmation, Saves, etc).
4th level manuevers (and you can choose a different one every morning using Martial Study or Martial Stance as one of your floating feats)
4th level divine or arcane spells (I suggest Divine spells. Like an Archivist, a Chameleon can use Cleric, Druid, Blackguard, Paladin, Ranger, domain, PrC, spells, but without the need for a prayer book. And many 3rd and 4th level Blackguard/Paladin/Ranger spells are the equivalent of 5th or 6th level Cleric spells (the easiest example is Holy Sword (www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/holySword.htm), but the splat books are filled with them).


Take the Exotic Weapon proficiency feat, and learn what it can do (www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=5266526). You can swap this out to be any exotic weapon each morning using the Warblade's Weapon Aptitude ability. If you want, you can swap out Warblade for Master of Masks (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070105a&page=3), as it gives you access to every Exotic Weapon.

The Chameleon bonus feat can swap out it's bonus feat every morning.

The Heroics spell (Spell Compendium) gives you a Fighter bonus feat of your choice that you otherwise qualify for. As a 2nd level Sorcerer Wizard spell, it's quite easy for you to cast yourself or put in a wand. It lasts 10 minutes per level, so you rarely need to bother with Persistent Spell or other chicanery.

You could also do a psionic or incarnum or binder version of this build, using your floating bonus feat to gain a different power every morning using Expanded Knowledge, Shape Soulmeld, or Bind Vestige. For your purposes, I'd suggest a Factotum 3/Incarnate 2/Chameleon 5/Incarnate X. With Brains Over Brawn, souldmelds, spells, and floating feats, you could pretty much accomplish any Skill task. With some creativity and planning, this build can pretty much do anything.