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Darwin
2009-09-03, 03:55 AM
A few days ago I took the decision of joining up with a weekly game with one of my former DMs. He's fairly strict on what's allowed in his games, and I respect most of the decisions he's made. However the system he is running is a mix of 2e and 3.5 with a tiny dash of 1e in it. The feats, classes, spells and skills are all 3.5, but the saving throws are 2e, and the attack system runs off ThAC0.

Here comes the point: I'm playing an Enchanter (a former hypnotist who got kicked out of the circus he was travelling with after being framed). An Enchanter needs to focus on his DCs, but since we're running 2e's saving throw system picking Spell Focus won't have any actual effect unless it's somehow converted.

New characters start at 1st level. The game is core only, and anything beyond that will need DMs approval (which can be very hard to get, he likes his games very low powered) before it's allowed into the game. It will probaly not stretch further than level 6-7.

1. Would it be unreasonable of me to request that Spell Focus applies a pentalty to my opponent's saving throws??
2. How does the 2e and 3e save systems scale compared to each other? Will I have an easier- or harder time getting my spells through? If the latter, is it even worth playing a DC based character in this environment?

Thank you in advance for your intelligent and thought-out words :smallsmile:

Eldariel
2009-09-03, 03:57 AM
Wouldn't be unreasonable. Feats should honestly do something. And AD&D 2nd Edition save system basically means higher level spells need to apply static penalties to saving throws to remain viable, and they'll still be obsoleted vs. tougher opponents soon enough. Note that casting stat had no impact on save difficulty in AD&D.

DMfromTheAbyss
2009-09-03, 03:59 AM
As an enchanter I would say spell focus would probably best be applied like school specialization in the second edition, Your opponents get a penalty vs your enchantment spells, boom done. If that doesn't work start asking for a school cap or something similar (applies additional bonuses/penalties to save vs a school of magic)

These things were a lot easier in second ed.

Zombimode
2009-09-03, 04:53 AM
Wouldn't be unreasonable. Feats should honestly do something. And AD&D 2nd Edition save system basically means higher level spells need to apply static penalties to saving throws to remain viable, and they'll still be obsoleted vs. tougher opponents soon enough. Note that casting stat had no impact on save difficulty in AD&D.

This isnt entirely true.

Only creatures who have realy high HD will make their saves 75% of the time.
In my experience even on super high levels you fight rarely creatures with more the arround 10 HD. 10 HD mean they will make their saves about 50% of the time. Since most SoL spells in AD&D effekt more than one creature, taking 50% of the enemies or even 25% out of the fight is still awsome. And remember, in AD&D a large group of lowlevel creatures can swarm and destroy a highlevel group. SoL spells help to preventing that.

Even if you fight a single high HD enemy, the lowest possible save vs. spell is 6. Thats 25% chance of taking out the enemy in one round. Now prepare the enemy with "Greater Malison" to worsen its saves against a single school about 3. Im not sure if by RAW this penality stacks with the save penality imposed by specialist wizards, but I would and do rule it so. Now we face a save vs. spell of 9 or 10.

Conclusion: SoL and SoD rule the spell selection in AD&D too. Blasting is an alternitive, though (thanks to generally lower HP).

Zombimode
2009-09-03, 05:00 AM
2. How does the 2e and 3e save systems scale compared to each other? Will I have an easier- or harder time getting my spells through? If the latter, is it even worth playing a DC based character in this environment?


On levels this low, your spells will go through 95% - 50% (against really tough oponents) of the time.

BobVosh
2009-09-03, 05:09 AM
This isnt entirely true.

Only creatures who have realy high HD will make their saves 75% of the time.
In my experience even on super high levels you fight rarely creatures with more the arround 10 HD. 10 HD mean they will make their saves about 50% of the time. Since most SoL spells in AD&D effekt more than one creature, taking 50% of the enemies or even 25% out of the fight is still awsome. And remember, in AD&D a large group of lowlevel creatures can swarm and destroy a highlevel group. SoL spells help to preventing that.

Even if you fight a single high HD enemy, the lowest possible save vs. spell is 6. Thats 25% chance of taking out the enemy in one round. Now prepare the enemy with "Greater Malison" to worsen its saves against a single school about 3. Im not sure if by RAW this penality stacks with the save penality imposed by specialist wizards, but I would and do rule it so. Now we face a save vs. spell of 9 or 10.

Conclusion: SoL and SoD rule the spell selection in AD&D too. Blasting is an alternitive, though (thanks to generally lower HP).

Blasting is great as the double specialized dagger throwing fighter than throws...10? maybe 8 daggers that all do ridiculous amounts of damage, finishing off the encounter.

Zombimode
2009-09-03, 07:29 AM
Blasting is great as the double specialized dagger throwing fighter than throws...10? maybe 8 daggers that all do ridiculous amounts of damage, finishing off the encounter.

5 actually, and its darts

But your point being?

Indon
2009-09-03, 08:18 AM
If your games are always going to cap at level 6-7, I wouldn't be worried at all about using save-vs. spells.

The 2E save table is static - your ability to make saves increases as you gain levels, such that low-level targets are weak to almost all saves, and high-level targets are strong against almost all saves.

So in your low-level games, you should find your spells tending to succeed. You shouldn't need spell focus or anything.

Just bear in mind that if you get past level 15 or so, the inverse will start to happen - your save-based spells will become successively more pointless.

LibraryOgre
2009-09-03, 09:33 AM
1. Would it be unreasonable of me to request that Spell Focus applies a pentalty to my opponent's saving throws??

Not at all, given that's how a 2nd edition Enchanter worked.


2. How does the 2e and 3e save systems scale compared to each other? Will I have an easier- or harder time getting my spells through? If the latter, is it even worth playing a DC based character in this environment?

In a 6-7th level game, not bad. While you won't be able to pump your DCs in the same way, neither will most people be pumping their saves. If the game were going into really high levels, you'd have more of a problem, but at this point, not so much.

Eldariel
2009-09-03, 10:34 AM
Even if you fight a single high HD enemy, the lowest possible save vs. spell is 6. Thats 25% chance of taking out the enemy in one round. Now prepare the enemy with "Greater Malison" to worsen its saves against a single school about 3. Im not sure if by RAW this penality stacks with the save penality imposed by specialist wizards, but I would and do rule it so. Now we face a save vs. spell of 9 or 10.

I'm not sure he has access to AD&D spells though, only the save mechanic, which would cut out Greater Malison.

valadil
2009-09-03, 10:43 AM
Just ask him how that feat will work. He'll homebrew something or tell you it's not available. If it's not available, would spellcasting prodigy work? It increases your casting stat for the purposes of magic.

Darwin
2009-09-03, 10:46 AM
I'm not sure he has access to AD&D spells though, only the save mechanic, which would cut out Greater Malison.

Right on that one, I mentioned in the original post that spells were 3.5 :smallwink:

Thanks for some great input everyone, I'll prepare a little speech to convince the DM how Spell Focus could work, and then pick up Spell Focus and Greater Spell Focus. As long as my spells still have a chance to fail they'll be worth it, and what else is there really to pick in core at level 1 anyway?

EDIT: Spellcasting Prodigy is definitely a no-go, as mentioned the game is core, and when I said my DM is strict, I meant it.