D&D 3.5 spellcasters

[Dingdongtudelu]

Hello!

I'm a little frightened by all you geeks and hardcore D&Ders out there that seem to know every letter of the rulebooks by heart, but if there's any audience that could probably answer my question in all its detail, I suppose it's you guys, so here goes (please don't kill me :smalleek:):

I am trying to play a game called neverwinter nights 2, and as I've always been into throwing balls of fire at oponents and acquiring an amount of power that's absolutely disproportionate with the world around me, I tend to make spellcaster types of characters. However, I absolutely despise wasting hours of my time on end selecting the appropriate spells for the next dangerous encounter, casting 5 minutes worth of buffs, only to have to rest 2 seconds later, when everything is dead, just to prepare the next set.

Hence...Sorcerers :smallcool:!

I love sorcerers. You pick some spells when you level, charge into battle, unload everything you have, and only rest when the next oponent you meet can't be obliterated by whatever arsenal of spells you have left inside of that little ball of hatred that is your "spellbook".

Now, bear with me, because I've recently discovered a new branch of spells that does not belong in the boomboom or evocation category. Necromancy! There's a spell called 'finger of death' that you can sling at your target, and if it fails a save, it just...dies. How cool is that? You can storm at whatever, go "boo", and reanimate its corpse after that. The problem with this spell is that it can be saved or resisted, which just totally kills that whole "cool" thing you plan to have going on.

Wizards have a solution for this, which is by specializing in necromancy, taking the "red wizard of thay" prestige class, specializing some more, grabbing spell focus: Necromancy, and so on, and so forth...

Because wizards are totally boring, being a wizard is out of the question. The base question then is, what's my alternative as a sorcerer? I really don't want to lose my cool, so having people resist that finger of death should be out of the question.

That's the main problem right there.

Having said that, there's another problem going on. Thinking about necromancy possibilities, I have discovered the palemaster prestige class. You become partially undead and can summon undead and yadayada, but the idea behind it is, you go up a level in the whole cool thing. Nice. I want it.

Stop right there, the game says. You want to be cool, you pay for it. Half spellcaster progression for you, ha-ha. This is where you people come in. I want to retain my spellcasting abilities. I want to keep throwing fingers of death at stuff like never before. There has to be a way around this, right? (without altering game files or applying mods and patches).

What I'm basically trying to ask you is: How do I create a very effective necromancer, having levels in the palemaster prestige class? You can assume the character level to go up to 30, so 2 prestige classes in additional to the sorcerer base class is possible.

Thanks in advance!
D.

[Optimystik]

Pale Master is awful, even in NWN2. The only reason you'd go into it is making some kind of gish, or picking it up post-epic. it has 5/10 casting progression, and while its capstone ability is nice (immune to criticals) you'll probably want 9th-level spells more, specifically Wail of the Banshee.'

EDIT: Sorry, I kind of skipped to the end and missed the part about you being new, so I'll put that a bit more plainly.

A Pale Master's strength is in giving wizards (or sorcerers) more physical endurance. You gain benefits like bonus hit points, armor class, and damage reduction, plus a funky touch attack with your bony arm. However, these benefits do not outweigh the crippling loss of spell slots you will have to deal with, because PMs only advance your base casting class on odd-numbered levels.

However, 1 level of Pale Master does not delay your casting progression, and grants you a natural AC bonus, so that might be much more preferable to you.

[Eldariel]

Question: Which addons do you have in the game? 'cause if you have Mask of the Betrayer, I strongly suggest entering Arcane Scholar of Candlekeep ASAP and going all the way. It just makes Arcane Casting good. I wouldn't really bother with Pale Master, yeah. It doesn't improve your casting.

Mostly, it involves making you Undead rather than allowing you to smite enemies better. That's why I suggest Arcane Scholar; it truly allows you to kill things more efficiently. And no, there's no way of taking levels in Palemaster without losing casting without altering game files.

Though a level 30 character with 10 levels in Palemaster has maximized casting, and with Practiced Spellcaster loses out on nothing, really. That may be what you're looking for.

[Dingdongtudelu]

Thanks for the replies!

Ok, so Asoc, and practiced spellcaster. That puts my caster level at 30, which is max, right? Will that allow the finger of death-ering to still happen, or is it just that much better to take wizard as base class? Will my necromancy DC be high enough? How about the spellcasting prodigy feat? Is that a viable option for a sorcerer, or are there better alternatives to spend your already low amount of feat options on?

[Aotrs Commander]

Having said that, there's another problem going on. Thinking about necromancy possibilities, I have discovered the palemaster prestige class. You become partially undead and can summon undead and yadayada, but the idea behind it is, you go up a level in the whole cool thing. Nice. I want it.

NWN2's version of Pale Master, is in fact, pretty awful. (Most of the Prestidge Class in NWN 2 are pretty awful, actually.) The 3.5 tabletop version of the Pale Master (from the book Libris Mortis) is actually quite good, since unlike the computer games, ordinary Animate Dead requires gold (and the Pale Master's once/day doesn't), you get 9/10 casting and some nice other abilites.

Note, that as I recall, you can only have one summoned minion at a time (which really bites, since as a NWN2 Pale Master, you have several summoning abilities.) On the whole, I don't think Pale Master will really help you spamming Finger of Death. It's a 7th level spell, so you get it at Sorcerer level 14 (which would be level 19 with ten levels of Pale Master). Increasing the save DC, which is what you want, is not very easy (given how powerful save-or-dies are, this is deliberate). Spell Focus (Necromancy) is one, as it boosting your Charisma as high as possible. Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything else in NWN2 (as opposed to the tabletop) which would help. Note that increasing the save DC is generally caster-level independant.

Practised Spellcaster, if it's the same as the tabletop version (which I think it is) only gives your +4 to your caster level, so a 10 Sorcerer/10 Pale Master with Practised Spellcaster is only caster level 19 (but that's not too bad actually). However, and you may not be familiar with this particualr nuance of the rules, caster level is not the same as levels granted in a spellcasting class. Specifically, Caster Level does NOT grant you new spells; it just means the ones you have don't suck as much.

Thus, the aforementioned 10 Sorcerer/10 Pale Master with Practised Spellcaster will have access to the number and level of spells as a 15th level sorcerer (so only 0th to 7th level spells); though you cas them at the strength of a 19th level caster.

Overall, Pale Master is not really worth it power-wise in NWN2. If you want to spam Finger of Death, you're better off with a straight Sorcerer (since you don't want to do Necromancer.)

[Dingdongtudelu]

Right, ok, so if I grab palemaster levels after level 20, once I already have sorcerer and arcane scholar levels AND practices spellcaster, the only thing I'll be missing out on is 1 caster level, and I'll have less spells per day as a regular level 30 sorcerer.

Hmf, as much as that sucks, maybe I can live with that. Can anyone tell me exactly how many spells per spell level I'll end up losing? Is the 1 caster level a big deal too? How will my finger of deathing be vs that of a regular necromancer wizard (taking the red wizard of thay prestige class for example), on the topic of beating spell resistance and DC?

Edit: Assuming the wizard has taken every feat the sorcerer has, like practiced spellcaster. Is there any point of going over casting level 30?

[Mando Knight]

Now, bear with me, because I've recently discovered a new branch of spells that does not belong in the boomboom or evocation category.

Welcome to the world of Save-or-Lose. Another useful spell is the conjuration Cloudkill, especially when PvP is off.

Unfortunately, death spells are actually pretty bad at the end of the game, simply by virtue of who you're fighting...

As of Mask of the Betrayer, I do not think there actually is any way to boost your base effective CL above 30... though I can't recall what the Spellcasting Prodigy background feat does exactly...

[Douglas]

Can anyone tell me exactly how many spells per spell level I'll end up losing?
None, actually. Spells per day stop going up at level 20.


Is the 1 caster level a big deal too? How will my finger of deathing be vs that of a regular necromancer wizard (taking the red wizard of thay prestige class for example), on the topic of beating spell resistance and DC?

Edit: Assuming the wizard has taken every feat the sorcerer has, like practiced spellcaster. Is there any point of going over casting level 30?
I think NWN2 has some save DC increasing scheme for epic play, but I'd have to look up the details. If it's based on caster level, then the Red Wizard boost might be significantly important. If it's based on Sorcerer/Wizard class level, you might actually want to skip taking a PrC entirely. If it's based on number of levels that count towards spells per day, then Arcane Scholar is still good but Pale Necromancer would not be.

Regardless, take Spellcasting Prodigy. The NWN2 version of it includes a +1 bonus to save DCs. You want Greater Spell Focus too, of course, along with charisma as high as you can get it.

[Optimystik]

Right, ok, so if I grab palemaster levels after level 20, once I already have sorcerer and arcane scholar levels AND practices spellcaster, the only thing I'll be missing out on is 1 caster level, and I'll have less spells per day as a regular level 30 sorcerer.

Actually, grabbing the class post-epic won't hurt you at all. It's the same reason Xykon is so powerful - he waited until post-epic to become a lich, when the LA would no longer impact his spells. This is one of the many, many reasons epic casters break the game in half.


Hmf, as much as that sucks, maybe I can live with that. Can anyone tell me exactly how many spells per spell level I'll end up losing? Is the 1 caster level a big deal too? How will my finger of deathing be vs that of a regular necromancer wizard (taking the red wizard of thay prestige class for example), on the topic of beating spell resistance and DC?

With Practiced Caster, Spell Penetration, GSP and ESP, you probably won't even notice spell resistance. The 1 caster level won't make a difference.


Edit: Assuming the wizard has taken every feat the sorcerer has, like practiced spellcaster. Is there any point of going over casting level 30?

Remember, practiced spellcaster only matters if you have a class that isn't advancing your spellcasting (whether by not being a casting class at all, or only have partial progression like Pale Master does,) So a pure wizard gains nothing from the feat, but a Wizard/PM would get back those 4 caster levels (though not the spells, feats, familiar progression etc.) that go with them. This matters for variables like spell resistance, damage and duration.

So to answer your question, your caster level will always be less than 30 if you take 10 levels of Pale Master, so Practiced Spellcaster will help there whether you are a wizard or a sorcerer first.

[Flickerdart]

Taking one level of Pale Master is pretty much free NA. Do it pre-epic, finish the rest later if you must. NWN2's Epic spells rather suck though, and there are no 10th+ spell slots.

[ShadowFighter15]

Just want to add in a bug with Practiced Spellcaster (unless it was fixed in the last patch); it'll still give you an extra four caster level even if both of your classes are spellcasting (ie; a 10 sorcerer, 10 ASoC with Practiced Spellcaster'll have a caster level of 24). Someone must've made a small mistake when coding the feat and made it a lot stronger than he should've.

[Dingdongtudelu]

Okay, thanks, I think that answers almost all of my questions! If anyone has enough time to make a post about wizard necromancy DC vs sorcerer necromancy DC, taking into account the wizard of thay prestige class the sorcerer is unable to get, that'd be very much appreciated!

[Flickerdart]

The main advantage of Wizards over Sorcerers is that Wizards get spells earlier, and get more of them. So half the time, they'll have higher-level spells with higher DCs as a result. Specialization also gives them almost as many slots as the Sorcerer.


However, as I recall NWN2 likes Sorcerers better: it's easy to get +CHA items as soon as you enter Neverwinter. But then again, you do get a Sorceress then, and presumably all that junk is for her. You get your party Wizard a lot later, and so heading down the path of Wizardry may be better, especially since you can PrC and they can't.

[Ranis]

I would just go wizard for the increased DC if that's what you really, really want. It gives you necromancy specialization which will give you an extra finger of death and make it harder to resist, etc etc. Just don't go casting finger of death on undead things

of which there are a LOT of in the later-to-endgame of NWN2's main campaign.

[Athaniar]

Actually, grabbing the class post-epic won't hurt you at all. It's the same reason Xykon is so powerful - he waited until post-epic to become a lich, when the LA would no longer impact his spells. This is one of the many, many reasons epic casters break the game in half.

Where is this stated? SoD and I've just forgotten it?

[Kish]

I have yet to meet a computer D&D game that has both wizards and sorcerers where the sorcerer doesn't kick the wizard from one side of Faerun* to the other. Utility spells are close to meaningless in computer games, and "cast the same frigging spell at you until you die" is godly.

However, if you really want to build your character around the Finger of Death spell, you're probably better off with a necromancer/Red Wizard of Thay. I hope you're prepared for being that dependent on that one spell** becoming extremely painful.

*Regrettably, I also can't think of any that aren't set in the much-overused Forgotten Realms, but that's a topic for another post.

**Lest I appear to be contradicting my Xykon quote here: Being able to cast Acid Arrow, Fireball, Lightning Bolt, Horrid Wilting, etc., as suits the situation is godly. Being able to cast always the same spell, which large numbers of enemies are simply immune to, without regard for the situation, is not.

[Dingdongtudelu]

Hello, me again!

As I am sitting here at work, I'm contemplating what kind of spellcasting characters I could create, and my mind got stuck with the eldritch knight this time. To save you all some reading time, I ended up with the idea of having a powerful melee character that still has 20 base caster levels, hereby retaining his ability to cast the maximum amount of level 9 spells (mostly used to buff himself and debuff his oponents). Oh, the character needed to have a pretty high BAB too. I wanted to hit really well, not just so-so.

To top it all off, I wanted to get a little bit of a weaponmaster going, because you know, cool.

Now, because I still hate wizards and love sorcerers, I figured I'd start from a base sorcerer class and work my way from there. The problem I'm now facing is: feats. The Sor/EK/WM combo is already pretty hard to get going feat-wise, but add in the fact that I want weapon focus/spec (because otherwise I wouldn't be able to hit worth a damn), cleave AND great cleave, and preferably two weapon fighting (to perfect, hate offhand misses), with a possible addition of practiced spellcaster...you can see what kind of a pickle I'm in.

Don't leave yet! I think I have actually found a way to pull it off. read below:

The base configuration for this is Sor/EK/WM. Just the amount of feats required to get that going (with the harsh reqs for the WM) adds up to 7. I need to get 10sor/10K going too, because I want my base level 20 casting class. I want 7 levels in WM, for the Ki critical, leaving me with an obligatory 10Sor/10EK/7WM base, and 7 feats gone.

Additional feats I want are (read below for why I split it up there):
a) Cleave, great cleave, all foci(3), all specs(3)
b) perfect TWF (4) and practiced spellcaster.

....yyyeah.

Ok, as I obviously can't have everything, I see 2 paths here. I either use a 2hander and go the foci/spec way, or I pick the TWF way and lose some AB/damage.

I can get a bonus feat from being human, and most of those feats, I can get as bonus feats from the fighter class. So here I am with my Sor10/EK10/WM7/F3 build. Looks horrible, I know, but this abomination gives me 12(level 30)+1(Human)+2(bonus fighter)=15 feats! It also provides me with 3 high BAB classes, and 2 classes that give almost full caster progression. ****, I just noticed I actually only have level 19 there, with the first crappy EK level. I'll add that as a question below.

Excluding the 7 I need for the combo, that leaves me with 8 feats to play around with. If I choose path a, I'm set.

The questions I have are:
a) Can I do this? I have no idea if it's possible or not. I was just browsing the wiki to create this character.
b) Will it be worth anything at all?
c) Can you spot its weaknesses?
d) Can you find a way to fix the base caster level that's only 19, due to the first EK level not allowing spell progression?

Thanks in advance for the expert replies!
D.

[UnChosenOne]

So post epic heavy melee. I would say that if you want STR fighter you could always took RDD. No spell casting, but spellcraft is class skill. So your build would look like next 10Socerer/10EK or ASoC/10RDD (Well, I must say that I don't know that do the RDD effect to the epic spell casting (thoug there is just two usefull epic spells)). In that case that you want DEX, I don't know what you should took.

[Optimystik]

Where is this stated? SoD and I've just forgotten it?

The mere fact that he has 9th level spells proves that he didn't become a lich pre-epic (or at least that if he did, he waited until level 18.) Liches have +4 LA, so becoming one at any point before that would have stymied his caster progression; QED.

(It's also likely he was epic or close to epic because he was fighting toe to toe with Lirian even in human form.)