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Paganboy28
2009-09-03, 12:02 PM
Is it possible to play an AoP and still be effective in a party?

Last time we had one in our group they ended up being more of a pain than a blessing....

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-03, 12:13 PM
Is it possible to play an AoP and still be effective in a party?

Last time we had one in our group they ended up being more of a pain than a blessing....

Vow of Peace is one of the most unbalanced feats ever printed; in some ways, it's worse than Echo Spell or Divine Metamagic. Because the entire class contradicts its requirements (Vow of Poverty) there's no way of telling how the class was meant to be played.

Vow of Peace forces the rest of the party to bend to your build's restrictions, a fact that is inherently bad design. It isn't that they have to hold back, its that it enforces stacking penalties if they don't obey. Furthermore, a majority of the encounters in premade modules, or even casual campaigns, are combat-oriented. DnD's classes are amlost entirely focused on combat-based abilities (especially once you get past the original Completes and into books like the XPH).

Is it possible to run an Apostle? Yes. But I can guarantee that it will cause headaches for everyone involved, especially if the party has their own goals that conflict with yours (a common theme).






My advice is to never allow someone to use those two Vows (Peace and Nonviolence) because they go so wildly out of the system's design that they upset the game. While your allies have to fight using nonlethal damage, your enemies are free to rain hellfire upon you and your party if they make a single save. This is counter-intuitive to the idea of many campaign settings (imagine trying to run through Expedition to Undermountain or the World's Largest Dungeon without killing things while they are trying their best to kill the entire party).

Paganboy28
2009-09-03, 12:18 PM
Exactly... this is what happened to us.

We ended up not being able to harm the big monsters that were trying to eat us... and some how hugging them nicely didn't work either.


It's a shame because I like the picture and the concept as a whole, its just that it really affects the party in a generally bad way.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-03, 12:22 PM
Exactly... this is what happened to us.

We ended up not being able to harm the big monsters that were trying to eat us... and some how hugging them nicely didn't work either.


It's a shame because I like the picture and the concept as a whole, its just that it really affects the party in a generally bad way.

The same can be said of a Frenzied Berserker, but a 1st level spell shuts him down (Grease) so he can't threaten the party. There's nothing short of violating the vow that can deal with an Apostle of Peace.


Vow of Poverty isn't as unbalanced, you just need to know how to use the feat properly (I have a Totemist player who has the feat; it's actually somewhat hindering him, but the benefits are still there). A good way to compensate for the added weakness of VoPov is to have half of the Vow taker's WBL go towards healing items and abilities, instead of the PCs investing their own wealth into keeping him alive.

quick_comment
2009-09-03, 12:29 PM
The same can be said of a Frenzied Berserker, but a 1st level spell shuts him down (Grease) so he can't threaten the party. There's nothing short of violating the vow that can deal with an Apostle of Peace.



Isnt the vow of peace mind affecting?

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-03, 12:34 PM
Isnt the vow of peace mind affecting?

So it is. Still takes an 8th level spell to block, so still worse than an FB.

quick_comment
2009-09-03, 12:40 PM
So it is. Still takes an 8th level spell to block, so still worse than an FB.

You can block it with a 6th level bard spell (empyreal ectasy) as well as some other things.

But yeah, vow of peace and nonviolence is silly for PCs. It can be a great way to explain why the uber-cleric doesnt go wipe out the cult himself though.

Prime32
2009-09-03, 12:58 PM
Maybe if you play one in a campaign where the only enemies are constructs and undead... (there's no restriction on killing those)

truemane
2009-09-03, 01:03 PM
I've neve played one, but my general feeling is that BoED stuff is meant to be used in campaigns that are specifically geared toward including them. I would never allow an Exalted character (no one more exalted than a regular Paladin anyway) into one of my regular campaigns, for all the reasons stated above.

Just as I wouldn't allow a Chaotic Evil PC into one of my regular campaigns for the same reason. The one disparate element would undermine the rest of the game.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-03, 04:36 PM
So if you hit a VoP character with mindblank, he no longer has to follow his vow?

*Goes off to make Test of Spite character*

Actually, I already have a VoP barbarian in the Test of Spite, and she has won 2/2 matches so far :smallbiggrin:

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-03, 04:40 PM
So if you hit a VoP character with mindblank, he no longer has to follow his vow?

*Goes off to make Test of Spite character*

Actually, I already have a VoP barbarian in the Test of Spite, and she has won 2/2 matches so far :smallbiggrin:

No... What gets negated by Mind Blank are the Penalties to attack rolls for your allies and the Mind Affecting aura that you project. Everything else still functions, and you're still restricted by your own vow.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-03, 04:48 PM
Oh, damn. I thought I had something there...oh well, it doesnt really matter.

Jack_Simth
2009-09-03, 05:09 PM
Umm...


To fulfill your vow, you must not cause harm or suffering to humanoid or monstrous humanoid foes. You may not deal real damage or ability damage to such foes through spells or weapons, though you may deal nonlethal damage. You may not target them with death effects, disintegrate, pain effects, or other spells that have the immediate potential to cause death, suffering, or great harm.
Your purity is so great that any ally of yours who slays a helpless or defenseless foe within 120 feet of you feels great remorse. Your ally takes +1 morale penalty on his attack rolls for 1 hour per your character level. For each helpless foe slain, the attack penalty increases by 1, to a maximum equal to your character level. The duration of the increased penalty starts from the latest slaying. (specific text from Here (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Vow_of_Nonviolence,all), Emphasis added)

To fulfill your vow, you must nor cause harm to any living creature (constructs and undead are not included in this prohibition). You may not deal real damage or ability damage to such creatures through spells or weapons, though you may deal nonlethal damage. You may not target them with death effects, disintegrate, or other spells that have the immediate potential to cause death or great harm. You also may not use nondamaging spells to incapacitate or weaken living foes so that your allies can kill them - if you incapacitate a foe, you must take him prisoner. (specific text from Here (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Vow_of_Peace,all), Emphasis added)

Basically, you can't deal damage to opponents, and you can't weaken opponents so that your allies can kill them, and your allies can't kill a "helpless or defenseless" opponent. There's no penalties whatsoever if one of your party members casts Disintegrate on the NPC Wizard while he's casting a fireball at you (he's not defenseless, nor is he helpless), and the only way that action will get you in trouble is if you've done something to the Wizard to make him an easier target for said Disintegrate. As written, even if you, say, cast Eagle's Splendor on your party Sorcerer, increasing his Disintegrate spell DC, there's no mechanical penalty to you or your party for it when the party Sorcerer then casts Disintegrate on the NPC Wizard. As long as you're buffing your allies, and nobody hurts a living critter that's "helpless or defenseless", you and your party are golden as far as the rules are concerned.

Sure, flavor-wise, you're supposed to discourage them from using such tactics, but if you restrict yourself to buffing your allies, the death of an active opponent isn't a problem ... and it's active opponents that can hurt the party. The feats even have clauses about what's permitted to happen to someone who breaks their terms-of-surrender after they've been captured, negotiated with, and released.

Lamech
2009-09-03, 05:21 PM
You can also cast spells that don't cause immediate harm. (Plane shift --> positive energy plane.) Summon or mind control stuff and have it whack people for you. Just so you're aware. (May cause DM to smack you and/or kill your character.) Also if you have someone who can throw enemies they count as manufactured weapons.

Also depending on what interpertion you use your apostle of peace can break his vow of poverty. I'm not sure if this works RAW, but RAI... the designers did not think. (There is a line about not being allowed armour, but allowing other defensive magic toys.)

P.S. If your party is attacked under the effects of calm emotions it is broken. So if your enemies attack them they can respond. (Or if they are attacked by a fellow party member. Use a sling to break it.)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-03, 07:49 PM
Basically, you can't deal damage to opponents, and you can't weaken opponents so that your allies can kill them, and your allies can't kill a "helpless or defenseless" opponent. There's no penalties whatsoever if one of your party members casts Disintegrate on the NPC Wizard while he's casting a fireball at you (he's not defenseless, nor is he helpless), and the only way that action will get you in trouble is if you've done something to the Wizard to make him an easier target for said Disintegrate. As written, even if you, say, cast Eagle's Splendor on your party Sorcerer, increasing his Disintegrate spell DC, there's no mechanical penalty to you or your party for it when the party Sorcerer then casts Disintegrate on the NPC Wizard. As long as you're buffing your allies, and nobody hurts a living critter that's "helpless or defenseless", you and your party are golden as far as the rules are concerned.
But if you hit the NPC with dispel, then the Wizard hits him with Disintigrate, you lose the vow. The problem is the following:
You also may not use nondamaging spells to incapacitate or weaken living foes so that your allies can kill them - if you incapacitate a foe, you must take him prisoner.You are limited to nonlethal damage and buffs unless your allies stop killing any opponents. If you cast a single spell that weakens your opponent(Solid Fog, Cause Fear, Nonlethal Fireball, etc) and your allies kill him, you fall.

Lamech
2009-09-03, 08:25 PM
You are limited to nonlethal damage and buffs unless your allies stop killing any opponents. If you cast a single spell that weakens your opponent(Solid Fog, Cause Fear, Nonlethal Fireball, etc) and your allies kill him, you fall.
Solid fog doesn't weaken them it alters the terrain. Again you cast other spells (buffs, terrain alteration, divination ect.) that help the party kill people.
Cause fear: Yes this counts.
Nonlethal Fireball: It makes them easier to knock out. See this qualifier "so that your allies can kill them"; the fireball in no way helps your party kill said person. So as long as your party doesn't kill helpless people (I suppose if they have HP=subdual damage the party must knock them out, but it isn't too hard then.)

CockroachTeaParty
2009-09-03, 09:03 PM
The way we play it, we say that a Vow of Peace character can't deal any kind of damage, save for nonlethal damage, and they also cannot inflict energy drain or diseases. Fear effects, charms and compulsions, penalties (such as Ray of Enfeeblement), fatigue or exhaustion effects, stunning, dazing, and paralysis are all legal, but a helpless foe is immediately off-limits and must be taken prisoner. Also, summoning creatures with the express purpose of killing something is forbidden, but summoned creatures can otherwise incapacitate or knock out foes.

Also, the aura the Vow exudes isn't that big a deal. Under the description of Calm Emotions, as soon as a hostile action takes place the effect ends for everyone, regardless of if they made their save or not.

I've actually seen a Vow of Peace character resolve many conflicts in interesting or peaceful ways. In my opinion, it makes things considerably more interesting, especially if the DM is up to the challenge.

Some examples:

A Vow of Peace character was able to talk down an entire camp of bandits, after all of their ammunition shattered against her skin.

A Vow of Peace character was able to peacefully talk with a Yugoloth that failed its save against the aura. The Yugoloth claimed that only through combat could the party pass, so the Vow taker offered that both parties be given time to properly prepare for a fair fight. The Yugoloth cast a few buffs and summoned a buddy, but once everyone was ready one party member who had made his save was able to start the fight. The party won, too.

Fights against animals, oozes, vermin, undead, and constructs ran pretty much the same. The Vow taker had to buff, heal, and assist indirectly, but otherwise things went normally.

I've never seen a proper Apostle of Peace in action before, but they look pretty flavorful. I've always wanted to see one cast 'End to Strife,' and scream "STOP FIGHTING!!"

Optimystik
2009-09-03, 09:32 PM
I've never seen a proper Apostle of Peace in action before, but they look pretty flavorful. I've always wanted to see one cast 'End to Strife,' and scream "STOP FIGHTING!!"

Or better yet, whisper it... and have that whisper echo across the camp. :smalleek:

http://www.astavar.de/img/apostle.jpg

Please?