PDA

View Full Version : Problems with Cohorts and Animal Companions



Yora
2009-09-03, 02:11 PM
I want to make a Prestige Class that mostly allows a character to summon really big and powerful outsiders to fight for him.

I guess the closest thing would be Cohorts or Animal Companions, but I've read at several places, that these have a tendency to give too much fighting ability to one player, while the others get slightly bored, because one player is stealing the show. And I guess when you can switch your Cohort any time to pick one that is the most useful in a given situation, it probably gets even worse.

So, what problems have you encountered with players getting in control of an additional creature with full combat ability? What advice could you give what things to consider and watch out for?

Thanks for any help.

Yukitsu
2009-09-03, 02:13 PM
As the player, you would have to put in the prep time to make a bigass chart that basically keeps track of your to hit with everything in your summons pile. I recommend not buffing them, as that bogs things down even more.

After that, just take averages on them, figuring out how many hit based on a pre made hit vs. AC chart. Basically what I do when I spam summons.

lsfreak
2009-09-03, 02:14 PM
The problem with animal companions and cohorts is that they allow a single player to have all the fighting capabilities of one character, and still have their main character. If you put limitations on them such that the player character themselves isn't doing much in the way of fighting, but rather it's only the monsters, it wouldn't be nearly as much of a problem.

HCL
2009-09-03, 03:42 PM
Planar ally/planar binding

wizard or cleric --> Malconvoker

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-03, 04:07 PM
Do you want a single monster that is great or a horde? The answer will change things.

Yora
2009-09-03, 04:10 PM
Single Monster. Like an animal companion or a cohort, just that you can chose one from a larger selection which one is summoned for the fight or task.

And I mostly want to know how to use it more like a characters ability than a second character.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-03, 04:17 PM
Then your best bet is a Supermount build.
1) Take Druid, Prestige Paladin(UA), Beastmaster(CAdv, IIRC), Natural Bond(CAdv), Devoted Tracker(no clue), and Halfling Outrider(RotW).
or
2) Take the Animal Companion variant Bard(UA), Druid, Obtain Familiar(C...Mage, IIRC), Natural Bond(CAdv), Beastmaster(CAdv, IIRC), and Arcane Heirophant(RotW).

The end result should be an absolute beast. Then spend all of your character's actions on buff spells, let the horsie do the killing.

woodenbandman
2009-09-03, 05:17 PM
Thaumaturgist or Malconvoker. Those two are good at summoning junk. Cast Planar Ally, Planar Binding, Summon Elemental Monolith...

Alternate route to that power is the Effigy Master and/or Maester classes. Build yourself a cool golem... of ANYTHING.

And finally a good combo is to get Gate (preferably early, like with, say, planar binding) and gate something awesome in, then cast Simulacrum. It's a 7th level wizard spell that is instantaneous in duration, and creates a double half the power of the original. As long as you summon something with twice your CL in hit dice, then create a Simulacrum of it, it'll be about on par with your level of things you should expect to hit in CR (though some things, like a Solar, are ridiculously overpowered and if you can make a simulacrum and/or summon one, you're pretty down forever). They even keep their SLAs and spellcasting (technically, though your DM would probably rule otherwise).

Yora
2009-09-03, 07:30 PM
Thanks to everyone who wants to contribute. But it would help a lot if the replies relate to the original question. :smallwink:

I intend to write a custom PrC anyway. What I am interested in is how to handle strong summoned pets without having one player dominate the entire game?

Kylarra
2009-09-03, 07:37 PM
Thanks to everyone who wants to contribute. But it would help a lot if the replies relate to the original question. :smallwink:

I intend to write a custom PrC anyway. What I am interested in is how to handle strong summoned pets without having one player dominate the entire game?There's no real answer to this. That's why druids can boast class features (AC) that are stronger than entire classes. The easiest way is to limit either the summon or the contribution that the player can make while the summon is active. 4e sort of does it by making the conjuration attack using its controller's actions. I don't think you quite want to limit it to that extent, but it's a thought. Perhaps require a move action to direct the summon (and have it act on his initiative to save rolling) and then he can take a standard action as normal.

Eldariel
2009-09-03, 07:48 PM
Archivist Malconvoker/Thaumaturgist seems to already do that. Add in a Sacred Exorcist dip and you'll be DMMing a bunch of Summons in no time. The only problem is, you need to be able to cast 'em as Standard Actions somehow; one option is getting Wizard-dip for Rapid Summoning, but that loses a level of casting.

The other is somehow applying Rapid Spell on your summons for free; viable alternatives include Metamagic School Focus, Divine Metamagic and Ring of the Beast (to increase the effective level by 1 to counteract the "lower level"-problem).


But yeah, limit the Allies in the spells already; subtly rewrite them to not allow multiple simultaneous Binds or such. This makes keeping that one companion ok, while limits you to just one instead of a veritable army.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-03, 07:58 PM
Thanks to everyone who wants to contribute. But it would help a lot if the replies relate to the original question. :smallwink:

I intend to write a custom PrC anyway. What I am interested in is how to handle strong summoned pets without having one player dominate the entire game?There isn't a way. If the ally is similar in power to a PC of that level, it's essentially a free second character for the player. If the ally is weaker, it's useless for a player who normally is facing fairly tough opposition. If there are several allies, the player is both useless and takes too long to take his turn. The best way is to make the cost so high that the original character is useless, but then you have to ask why the player is even adventuring rather than just relaxing in a bar while his pet demon does all the work.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-03, 09:09 PM
You might also look into the Fiendbinder class for ideas. They're rather cool (though they get whacked hard with a nerf bat; those features do not justify losing 3 CL by any stretch of the imagination), so some of those ideas might help you. Similarly, the Thaumaturgist and Malconvoker may have some ideas for you. Oh, and the Constructor, that one might very well have a lot of neat ideas for you.

peacenlove
2009-09-04, 12:27 AM
I would like to add Master of Shadow from tome of magic and the Shadowdancer PrC. These are nice classes with a cohort, especially the first, which until 10th level, it drains actions from you to fuel your companion.

sofawall
2009-09-04, 12:29 AM
Then your best bet is a Supermount build.
1) Take Druid, Prestige Paladin(UA), Beastmaster(CAdv, IIRC), Natural Bond(CAdv), Devoted Tracker(no clue), and Halfling Outrider(RotW).
or
2) Take the Animal Companion variant Bard(UA), Druid, Obtain Familiar(C...Mage, IIRC), Natural Bond(CAdv), Beastmaster(CAdv, IIRC), and Arcane Heirophant(RotW).

The end result should be an absolute beast. Then spend all of your character's actions on buff spells, let the horsie do the killing.

I have to ask, did you read the thread?

Akal Saris
2009-09-04, 12:50 AM
Thanks to everyone who wants to contribute. But it would help a lot if the replies relate to the original question. :smallwink:

I intend to write a custom PrC anyway. What I am interested in is how to handle strong summoned pets without having one player dominate the entire game?

I second looking at the fiendbinder for ideas. The limitations imposed there are threefold:

1. It takes your standard action to command your minions
2. It takes a pile of cash to get one in the first place
3. You lose caster levels, making your character weaker in the process.

I'd take 2 of those for your homebrew and see where it gets you.

Oh! And another good one to check out is the Beast Heart Adept from Dungeonscape (the one that the Giant worked on). The limitation there is that there's no outside support for the pets, and only 1-2 out of 4 pets will be very useful in a fight, but lots are decent as utility pets.

Yora
2009-09-04, 05:27 AM
Thie fiendbinder is quite close to what I have in mind, but still not quite the right thing for what I want to do.

I guess I make a first draw of the class I want to include in my game.
A basic assumption is, that no character can have a total of more than 10 class levels, and that psionics are the only form of spellcasting. I go with the psionic names here, though I'll refluff it to a shaman summoning the spirits of the wild or dead heroes.

The Summoner
Prerequisites
Skills: Knowledge (the planes) 8 Ranks.
Feats: Boost Construct.
Powers: The character must be able to cast astral construct.

Hit Dice: d4
Skill Points: 4

{table=head]Lvl.|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special
1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Guardian spirit, summoning +1, extend summoning
2nd|+0|+0|+0|+3|Summoning +2, greater boost
3rd|+1|+1|+1|+3|Summoning +3[/table]

Spells/Powers: A summoners spellcasting or manifesting ability does not improve in any way.
Guardian Spirit: A summoner can perform a ritual to make a pact with a spirit to serve as his protector and servant. (I have not yet determined costs and such for the ritual). In exchange for its service, a spirit is freed of the confines of the location, to which its existance is usually bound, and can travel the world with the summoner. A summoner can have as many guardian spirits as his caster level plus his levels in the summoner class. Guardian spirits are usually loyal allies that share the same goals and outlooks as the summoner. A summoner can however make a temporary pact with an unfriendly spirit to archieve a specific common goal, or he can force an unwilling spirit into his service. Though guardian spirits usually follow the summoners commands, they retain their free will and may try to resist if commanded to do things fundamentally against their will. A summoner has to make a successfull Bluff, Diplomacy, or Intimidate check against a DC of the guardian spirits level +10.
A guardian spirit can be summoned by the astral construct spell. However, the stats of a guardian spirit are permanently set during the ritual that binds it to the summoner. If the summoner is actively searching for a spirit that suits its needs, the exact stats can be chosen by the player. For spirits that are allready established NPCs in the game, the stats are set by the gm. As the spirits form is created by the magic of the summoner and not by its own power, a summoner can improve any of his guardian spirits when he gains new class features. Such improvements are permanent however and can not be reversed. Only one guardian spirit can be summoned at any time, and any other summoned creatures are immediately dismissed when a guardian spirit is summoned. The summoner can also not summon any other creatures while a guardian spirit is summoned.
Summoning: A summoners guardian spirit can be more powerful than the spirits he could normally summon with the astral construct power. When binding a guardian spirit, the summoner adds his class level to the maximum level of creatures he could usually summon. For example a Psion5/Summoner2 could spend 5 power points to cast astral construct and summon a 3rd level creature. The same characters guardian spirits can be of 5th level instead without affecting the powers caster level, power point cost, or anything else. When a character gains new levels as a summoner, he can chose to permanently improve the level of his existing guardian spirits.
Extend Summoning: When a summoner summons a guardian spirit, the duration of the spell is twice as long as normal. This stacks with the Extend Power feat.
Greater Boost: At 2nd level, a summoner can add a second additional ability to all his guardian spirits.