[Theoretical Optimization] Stability

[Fax Celestis]

I've not seen this optimized yet, but it's been on my mind recently as I have a dwarf character who has a gigantic mod against bull-rushes and trips without even trying.

Archimedes said, "Give me a lever long enough and a fulcrum on which to place it, and I shall move the world."

I want to be the fulcrum.

So Far:
{table=head]Option | Type | Source | Specific Bonus | Effective Bonus
Earth Dwarf | Race | +8 | +9*
Stability or Four Legged | Race/Template | Various | +4 | +4
Shield Ward | Feat | Player's Handbook II | +1 - +12 | +1 - +12*
Rock Boots | Item | Magic of Eberron | +4 | +4*
Steadfast Boots | Item | Magic Item Compendium | +4 | +4
Roots of the Dragon | Stance | Tome of Battle | +10 | +10*
Combat Stability | Feat | Player's Handbook II | +4 or +8 | +4 or +8*
Enlarge Person | Spell | Player's Handbook | +4 | +5
Expansion | Power | Expanded Psionics Handbook | +4 or +8 | +5 or +10*
Immovability | Power | Expanded Psionics Handbook | +20 | +20*
Moment of Prescience | Spell | Player's Handbook | +25 | +25
Mauling Gauntlets | Soulmeld | Magic of Incarnum | +2 +2e | +2 +2e
Gorgon Mask | Soulmeld | Magic of Incarnum | +2 +2e | +2 +2e*
Sphinx Claws | Soulmeld | Magic of Incarnum | +1 +1e | +1 +1e*
[/table]

Build: Earth Dwarf Psychic Warrior 4/Totemist 1/Swordsage 2/Soul Manifester (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20060217a) 10/Swordsage +3

At ECL 10, Our Hero can manifest expansion to become Gargantuan. He uses all of the effects marked with a * in the above table. He has a large shield +1 which his friendly neighborhood cleric has dropped a magic vestment upon, making it a +5 shield. He has 8 essentia, investing four (his max capacity) into both Gorgon Mask and Sphinx Claws. When needed, he may manifest immovability to root himself to the ground more.

Total bonus: +61, +81 when concentrating on immovability.

[Boci]

I pretty sure theres also a racial feat I saw on crystalkeep that gives an additional +4. Give the dwarf a template that grants more than 2 legs (tauric maybe?) and that an addtional +4.

[Eldariel]

Steadfast Boots [MiC] also gives +4. Roots of the Mountain [ToB Stone Dragon Stance] gives +10 to the opposed rolls.

[Random832]

Bull Rush: The defender gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable.
Trip: The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid.

So four legs = doesn't stack, at least not with the racial bonus. I'm also not seeing where Earth Dwarves get +8.

That said, Permanent Enlarge Person.

[quick_comment]

Moment of Prescience would give up to +25 on the opposed check

[Fax Celestis]

So four legs = doesn't stack, at least not with the racial bonus.Sure it does, they're untyped bonuses.


I'm also not seeing where Earth Dwarves get +8.Mixed up stonecunning, oops.

[LibraryOgre]

What you need is a Dworvesh (IIRC).

[Sallera]

Greater Anchoring property from MIC?

[Fax Celestis]

What you need is a Dworvesh (IIRC).

A what?


Greater Anchoring property from MIC?

Which does?

[Random832]

Sure it does, they're untyped bonuses.

They're the same bonus. Not "same type" or "same source", it's the same bonus. It's not even really "two that don't stack", it's one bonus. That you get once for being four-legged or e.g. a race with Stability.

[Amiria]

Wasn't there something in Person_Man's shield thread that also gave the shield bonus as a bonus against overrun, bullrush, trip, etc. ? Maybe a divine feat (wouldn't last very long then though) or some other ability ?

[Chrono22]

A few toe-activated immovable rods in your boots?

[Fax Celestis]

They're the same bonus. Not "same type" or "same source", it's the same bonus. It's not even really "two that don't stack", it's one bonus. That you get once for being four-legged or e.g. a race with Stability.

Huh. I guess it is.

[boomwolf]

A few liver-activated immovable rods in your belly?

[Random832]

I'd still go with Earth Dwarf - +2 STR = another +1 to the check. Really we should be comparing the STR bonuses of all Stability-granting (or four-legged) races/templates. Does anything have both Stability and Powerful Build? Actually, since Powerful Build pumps you up an effective size category (another +4, which stacks with being enlarged), it's about an equivalent trade for this purpose to get just one or the other.

[Tehnar]

Shield Ward gives you your Shield AC as a bonus to touch AC, and resisting trip, bull rush, grapple, etc.

Combat stability give you +4 to resist the same things, +8 if you have 3 or more combat form feats.

With a heavy shield +5, you could add +16 to resist being tripped, bull rushed or grabbed.

[LibraryOgre]

IIRC, the creature called a dworvesh was in one of 2nd edition's MC annuals... it was a centaur, but done with dwarf and donkey instead of elf and arabian.

[Draz74]

There's a lot more size abuse to be done here. Giant Size spell, anyone? Or at least Expansion power for two size categories?

[Johanas]

Also the combat form feats from the complete warrior (i think). 1 feat is a prerequisite, the other gives a misc. +4 bonus to the same things dwarves get stability with. If you take one more feat, it increases to +8.

Edit: It's the Player's Handbook 2. Under Combat Form feats, page 87. Combat Focus -> Combat Stability. If you posses 3 or more Combat Form feats, it goes up to a +8. You already would have 2 at that point.

[The Glyphstone]

10 levels of PsyWarrior will give you Indomitability, another +20.

[Keld Denar]

The Tauric template would give you multiple legs. Tauric Earth Dwarf combined with like...I dunno, something with actual feet that could wear Steadfast Boots. Take levels in Psy War and Expand up to Garganuan and use Indominability. Dip 4 levels in Warblade (or 1 level and a feat) to grab Roots of the Dragon stance. And have a +5 Large shield with the Shield Ward feat. That would probably work well.

[Glimbur]

The Shedu Crown, a Totemist soulmeld from Magic of Incarnum, makes you immune to bull rushes, telekinesis, hand spells, and such. No help against Trips though.

Mauling Gauntlets, a Soulborn soulmeld from the same book, give +2 morale to Str checks but not Str based skill checks, such as bull rushing; with an additional +2 per essentia invested.

Gorgon Mask, a Totemist soulmeld, gives +2 resistance bonus v bull rush, trip, overrun, and trample, with an additional +1 per essentia.

Sphinx Claws, a Totemist soulmeld, give a +1 competence to Str checks and Str based skill checks, with an additional +1 per essentia.

Strangely, Incarnates seem to get no stability boosters.

[Boci]

They're the same bonus. Not "same type" or "same source", it's the same bonus. It's not even really "two that don't stack", it's one bonus. That you get once for being four-legged or e.g. a race with Stability.

Can you back that up with anything? Logic would suggest certain four legged races can be more stable than their own, and there are no reasons to assume logic should be discounted in this case.

[Zovc]

Bull Rush: The defender gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable.

So four legs = doesn't stack, at least not with the racial bonus.

Damn, my four-legged dwarf build is gimped!

[DragoonWraith]

No, the rule in question definitely states that you get a +4 for being exceptionally stable. Having four legs makes you exceptionally stable, as does the Stable racial feature. There is no rule for extra-specially exceptionally stable.

[ZeroNumerous]

Can you back that up with anything? Logic would suggest certain four legged races can be more stable than their own, and there are no reasons to assume logic should be discounted in this case.

Because Stability and having more than two legs are counted as the same for the +4 bonus against bull rushes. Ergo, having exceptional stability and six legs = Same +4 bonus as merely being really stable.

[Cieyrin]

I think this probably isn't what you're looking for but Tattooed Monk's Mountain Tattoo, when activated, makes the character unable to be tripped or bullrushed, at least IIRC.

[ZeroNumerous]

I'd say that immunity to Bull Rushing makes you a better fulcrum than simple +NI to your check.

[Boci]

Because Stability and having more than two legs are counted as the same for the +4 bonus against bull rushes. Ergo, having exceptional stability and six legs = Same +4 bonus as merely being really stable.

You just rephrased what you said before. I accept this as a valid interpretation, but I believe it was just badly worded and this is not the intended rules. I'm wondering if you can cite a reference or ruling to back it up.

[Darrin]

The Tauric template would give you multiple legs. Tauric Earth Dwarf combined with like...I dunno, something with actual feet that could wear Steadfast Boots.

Phynxkin makes a fairly ideal bottom half of a Tauric template (the only 1 HD medium-sized four-legged animal I've ever been able to find in 3.x). Are there any templates you can bury on the bottom half that can increase bull rush/overrun/trip? Maybe Lolth-touched and Mineral Warrior?

Jotunbrud feat if you're human.

And Earth Dwarves do get a +8 stability bonus. Per the Stability text in UA: "If the standard race already has this ability, the bonuses stack."

[ZeroNumerous]

You just rephrased what you said before. I accept this as a valid interpretation, but I believe it was just badly worded and this is not the intended rules. I'm wondering if you can cite a reference or ruling to back it up.

First, it's not interpretation. It's outright stated in the bull-rush rules.


Second, you and the defender make opposed Strength checks. You each add a +4 bonus for each size category you are larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for each size category you are smaller than Medium. You get a +2 bonus if you are charging. The defender gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable.

Bolding mine.

Second: You should look at screen names before you say someone is someone else.

[Boci]

First, it's not interpretation. It's outright stated in the bull-rush rules.

Not really. To you maybe, but to me the absence a statement clearly prohibiting the stacking iof the two leaves a grey area. A statement "You gain a +2 bonus against an X attempt if you have Yor Z implies you can gain +4 if you have Z and Y, and logic suports this view.


Second: You should look at screen names before you say someone is someone else.

Sorry, got confused because you double posted.

[Gralamin]

Not really. To you maybe, but to me the absence a statement clearly prohibiting the stacking iof the two leaves a grey area. A statement "You gain a +2 bonus against an X attempt if you have Yor Z implies you can gain +4 if you have Z and Y, and logic suports this view.


I'd say it doesn't. The closest logical equivalent to

The defender gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable.
Is something like:

if(legs > 2 || stable == true) {bonus = bonus +4;}
Not the version you seem to be using which would be

if (legs > 2) {bonus = bonus +4;}
if (stable == true) {bonus = bonus +4;}

The first is truer to the statement, "In condition X or condition Y, you get Bonus Z."
The second is truer to the statement, "In Condition X you get bonus Z, and, In condition Y, you get bonus Z."

[DragoonWraith]

Not really. To you maybe, but to me the absence a statement clearly prohibiting the stacking iof the two leaves a grey area. A statement "You gain a +2 bonus against an X attempt if you have Yor Z implies you can gain +4 if you have Z and Y, and logic suports this view.
There is no such implication, in the English language or in the rules of D&D. The RAW give a single +4 bonus for having stability, which may be gained a number of different ways, but you either have it or you do not. There is no rule for "double-stability". Logical or not, anything giving further bonus from multiple sources of stability is a house-rule. There isn't even any indication that RAI is that you get a doubled bonus for both.

[ZeroNumerous]

Not really. To you maybe, but to me the absence a statement clearly prohibiting the stacking iof the two leaves a grey area.

Either/or means Choose One.

"The defender gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable."

If you have three+ legs: You get +4.
If you are exceptionally stable: You get +4.
If you have 9001 Legs and are so stable the gods themselves cannot push you: You get +4.

It requires stretching the RAW to the breaking point to get more than +4 from having three+ legs and being exceptionally stable.

[Boci]

The defender (against a bullrush) gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable.

The defender (against a charm spell) gets a +2 bonus if he has the iron will feat or is an elf.

I guess the key difference is the word otherwise. I'm still not entierly convinced there is a clear distingshion, but I get the other argument now.

[Boci]

Either/or means Choose One.

"The defender gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable."

If you have three+ legs: You get +4.
If you are exceptionally stable: You get +4.
If you have 9001 Legs and are so stable the gods themselves cannot push you: You get +4.

It requires stretching the RAW to the breaking point to get more than +4 from having three+ legs and being exceptionally stable.

Wrong key word. Otherwise is what prevents them from stacking. Without it they should. I can think of loads of different examples when X or Y stacks.

[Xenogears]

Either/or means Choose One.

"The defender gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable."

If you have three+ legs: You get +4.
If you are exceptionally stable: You get +4.
If you have 9001 Legs and are so stable the gods themselves cannot push you: You get +4.

It requires stretching the RAW to the breaking point to get more than +4 from having three+ legs and being exceptionally stable.

I'm like 99.9999% sure that in computer code the word "OR" means "A" "B" or "A+B". Atleast thats what my teacher said.

[Gralamin]

I'm like 99.9999% sure that in computer code the word "OR" means "A" "B" or "A+B". Atleast thats what my teacher said.

Code uses Inclusive OR, which is the sense this is being used in. English, otherwise, usually uses Exclusive Or, which is A, B, and not (A & B). See the code above I posted.

[ZeroNumerous]

Wrong key word. Otherwise is what prevents them from stacking. Without it they should. I can think of loads of different examples when X or Y stacks.

Uh, no.

Simple syntax says when asked to choose 1 or 2, you cannot pick 3.

[Foryn Gilnith]

Question about these "or" things..


If you have 5 or more ranks in Bluff, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), or Sense Motive, you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.

Does this mean that you can only get a +2 bonus?

[Cieyrin]

I'd say it doesn't. The closest logical equivalent to

Is something like:

if(legs > 2 || stable == true) {bonus = bonus +4;}
Not the version you seem to be using which would be

if (legs > 2) {bonus = bonus +4;}
if (stable == true) {bonus = bonus +4;}

The first is truer to the statement, "In condition X or condition Y, you get Bonus Z."
The second is truer to the statement, "In Condition X you get bonus Z, and, In condition Y, you get bonus Z."

Leave it to the Playgrounder with the Modron avatar to pull out Boolean statements.:smalltongue:

[Fax Celestis]

Judgment Call: since the Dwarf's Stability and the Stability given by being an Earth creature explicitly stack, I'm going to rule that for the purposes of this thread, four-legged and stability don't stack unless explicitly stated so.

[Random832]

Can you back that up with anything? Logic would suggest certain four legged races can be more stable than their own, and there are no reasons to assume logic should be discounted in this case.

Because the rule granting the bonus provides a single bonus to a character who "has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid". This second part is the basis for the bonus Dwarves get. Logic would suggest that such a race would have its own special ability that specifically says it stacks with the bonus for having multiple legs. Applying a template for extra legs to Dwarves does not do this.


Judgment Call: since the Dwarf's Stability and the Stability given by being an Earth creature explicitly stack, I'm going to rule that for the purposes of this thread, four-legged and stability don't stack unless explicitly stated so.

Wait, so that's where the Earth Dwarves' +8 was. I didn't see it (since D&DWiki is organized like crap), so I asked about it, and the OP changed it - it should go back on.

[CockroachTeaParty]

Them's some mighty impressive numbers... but what's the point? So you can't be bull rushed... That means your enemies are probably going to just go around you, or some such. Useful when fighting on a bridge or near a cliff or lava pit, sure, but I've rarely seen the bull rush rules even used in the games I've been in.

Unless you're really trying to find a deity with a crowbar and world-moving aspirations...

[Boci]

Uh, no.

Simple syntax says when asked to choose 1 or 2, you cannot pick 3.

This is funny. We've all agreed it doesn't stack, and now we're argueing why. As someone else pointing out, does the "or" in the diplomacy bonuses mean you can only get it once?

[sofawall]

Them's some mighty impressive numbers... but what's the point? So you can't be bull rushed... That means your enemies are probably going to just go around you, or some such. Useful when fighting on a bridge or near a cliff or lava pit, sure, but I've rarely seen the bull rush rules even used in the games I've been in.

Unless you're really trying to find a deity with a crowbar and world-moving aspirations...

Theoretical Optimization doesn't need to have a purpose. It's theoretical, a thought exercise, a "hey guys look at this huge number!", not meant to be played.

EDIT: Example: Highest Jump Record? Theoretical. Pun-Pun? Theoretical. Highest Stability? Theoretical.

Making a sorcerer based on using Fog and Weather spells? Maybe not optimal, but practical, if used for a game.

[ZeroNumerous]

This is funny. We've all agreed it doesn't stack, and now we're argueing why. As someone else pointing out, does the "or" in the diplomacy bonuses mean you can only get it once?

No, because the synergy rules specify that all synergy bonuses are applied. To wit (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/usingSkills.htm#skillSynergy). Stability/Four leg lacks any such specification. If that sentence hadn't been taken out of context and was the only instance of synergy being mentioned then yes you would only get +2.

[Fax Celestis]

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