Psychology is scary.

[tribble]

my high school psychology class was discussing ethics today, and for an example of bad ethics we took a look at the stanford prison experiment. (http://www.prisonexp.org/)

ho-lee crap. the simultaneous power and fragility of the human mind terrified me. less than a week, and these ordinary college students are brought to this? can we even imagine what would have happened if the experiment had gone on for two weeks as planned? or what someone can do with someones mind over a month?

suddenly what the Joker did to Harley Quinn seems much more plausible.

[Spiryt]

Yeah, we're kinda scary creatures.

There was good movie based on it, doesn't remember the title though.

[Mystic Muse]

Saw? Hostel? Any horrific horror movie ever?

Let's face it. Humans are capable of extreme good. we're also capable of things so beyond evil most of us can't even begin to comprehend them.

[evisiron]

Indeed. It seems a slight tip in any social situation can potentially change people in powerful ways.

Have you read about the Milgram electro-shocking experiments yet?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment for a quick summary.

The number of people willing to shock a fellow human being with what they believed to be potentially lethal voltages simply because a man in a lab coat told them to is terrifying.

[Starscream]

I remember learning about that my freshman year of college.

If you ever need evidence that there is something wrong with our species in general, look no further.

[Mx.Silver]

Indeed. It seems a slight tip in any social situation can potentially change people in powerful ways.

Have you read about the Milgram electro-shocking experiments yet?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment for a quick summary.

The number of people willing to shock a fellow human being with what they believed to be potentially lethal voltages simply because a man in a lab coat told them to is terrifying.

Shh! Don't spoil it for them :smalltongue:

[tribble]

Indeed. It seems a slight tip in any social situation can potentially change people in powerful ways.

Have you read about the Milgram electro-shocking experiments yet?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment for a quick summary.

The number of people willing to shock a fellow human being with what they believed to be potentially lethal voltages simply because a man in a lab coat told them to is terrifying.

yeah, we discussed that too.:smallfrown:

also the Alfred experiment. where Cracked said he was planning to go with that makes it even worse.

[evisiron]

Well, if another step up is needed, the Milgram experiments also occurred using actual voltage on small puppies. I will have to check the book with the article name detailing the results though.

[Jacklu]

Check this article out for confirmation of everything you fear about humanity (http://www.cracked.com/article_16239_5-psychological-experiments-that-prove-humanity-doomed.html). Also, sorry for linking Cracked.com. I'll see you guys in a few days when you pry yourself away from the 12 most awkwardly shaped fruit list.

[kpenguin]

If you ever need evidence that there is something right with our species in general, look no further.

Fixed it for you.

[Blue Ghost]

Fixed it for you.

Um, what? I don't understand you.

I never had much faith in humanity. I had acknowledged that people were basically evil a long time ago, but I guess I was still subconsciously holding on to some hope that I was wrong, based on how shocked I was by what I read.

[littlebottom]

if this intrests you, then a man called "derren brown" will intrest you too, if this scares you, then a man called "derren brown" will scare you too... personally i think his great, he has copyed a couple of those sorts of expeirments, and does some of modern day equivilent, but mostly he just makes people rob a bank for him and make them think it was their own idea,:smallbiggrin:

it wasnt real money they robbed, they set it up to see if they would do it after several weeks of subliminal mesaging and reprogramming their minds. in a sick sort of experiment

[Bellepheron]

Scary stuff indeed. Made me think of that movie where some teacher created a mini third reich for himself. He wanted to show the students what it felt like to be in a group and they got a bit carried away.

Conditioning.....only good in a shampo bottle!

[Moonchill]

Um, what? I don't understand you.

I never had much faith in humanity. I had acknowledged that people were basically evil a long time ago, but I guess I was still subconsciously holding on to some hope that I was wrong, based on how shocked I was by what I read.

I think what he getting at is that, biologically speaking, this makes alot of sense. You want to conform. Conformity is good, it means you're accepted by the pack, and they'll protect you. Strength in numbers. More chance to pass on your genes (good luck with that if you're a complete non conformer).

[Vmag]

Professional psychology is a joke. A joke with a good paycheck, but a joke nonetheless.

It's the noble and radical experiments that really get fun. Heck, if you find yourself in an area where other people exist, you can entertain yourself to no end by finding out what makes them tick and why. You'll never have to worry about being one-upped ever again, and the games you can play with a person's mind is immensely enjoyable.

Doc please, you can keep your 65 bucks an hour for asking me how I feel about things, I'm sure your very proud of that diploma of yours. Now being able to assess a person's very being, not just superficially but within the very depths of their greatest life-deciding factors... That's... that's fun :smallamused:

[Spiryt]

Saw? Hostel? Any horrific horror movie ever?


No, not any film about some cancer having guy cutting cops throat like Volverine :smalltongue:

I meant film about such " prison" experiment.

It was very good, but I can't recall it's name. :smallfrown:

[Cobra_Ikari]

Psychotherapy is the art of getting someone to pay you to be their friend. Their weird, far-too-intelligent-sounding, kinda-useless-for-advice friend.

[Vmag]

Their weird, far-too-intelligent-sounding, kinda-useless-for-advice friend.

And how does that make you feel about that?

*crosses legs*

[JMobius]

Psychotherapy is the art of getting someone to pay you to be their friend. Their weird, far-too-intelligent-sounding, kinda-useless-for-advice friend.

Have you ever actually been to one?

I've known several people who have had their quality of life greatly improved by good therapists. It doesn't work for everybody, but I think it is a very valuable discipline to have access to for the people who can use it.

[Blue Ghost]

Scary stuff indeed. Made me think of that movie where some teacher created a mini third reich for himself. He wanted to show the students what it felt like to be in a group and they got a bit carried away.

Conditioning.....only good in a shampo bottle!

Ah, the Third Wave experiment, was it not? I loved that one. Though how faithful the film was to the actual details, I do not know.

[Eon]

i'm scared. that is just disturbing.

[Cobra_Ikari]

Have you ever actually been to one?

I've known several people who have had their quality of life greatly improved by good therapists. It doesn't work for everybody, but I think it is a very valuable discipline to have access to for the people who can use it.

I've been to plenty. Most of them didn't help me very much.

That said, I was really joking. The art of therapy is mostly listening, which is something a good friend does well (or, in my opinion, at least). Most of the psychologists/therapists I've had have flat-out told me they wouldn't give me advice on something. It seems like they prefer leading you to make your own healthy conclusion than telling you what healthy conclusion you should choose.

Does my statement make more sense now? =P

EDIT: PS - None of my therapists have EVER asked "And how does that make you feel?" I have no idea where that idea comes from.

[Green Bean]

Um, what? I don't understand you.

I never had much faith in humanity. I had acknowledged that people were basically evil a long time ago, but I guess I was still subconsciously holding on to some hope that I was wrong, based on how shocked I was by what I read.

Pft, all those experiments show is that we're manipulable, not any fundamental truths about our ground state of being.

[Spiryt]

Found it.

The movie inspired by this stanford experiment.

Das Experiment (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0250258/)

Good one.

[SilveryCord]

Professional psychology is a joke. A joke with a good paycheck, but a joke nonetheless.

Would you like to enumerate the reasons why professional psychology is a 'joke'? I've seen it save lives and greatly improve the quality of others. Please, if you have knowledge of some big secret as to why professional psychology as a whole is a sham, share it.

Please don't go around encouraging people who might be having problems--entirely out of their own control--to not seek medical attention. If anyone reading this post is ever having trouble with a mental condition, please DO NOT hesitate to seek help. Get to a doctor and get the therapy or medication you need: Mental disorders can be just as dangerous as a 'normal' disease.

[Eldan]

I've been to plenty. Most of them didn't help me very much.

That said, I was really joking. The art of therapy is mostly listening, which is something a good friend does well (or, in my opinion, at least). Most of the psychologists/therapists I've had have flat-out told me they wouldn't give me advice on something. It seems like they prefer leading you to make your own healthy conclusion than telling you what healthy conclusion you should choose.

Does my statement make more sense now? =P

EDIT: PS - None of my therapists have EVER asked "And how does that make you feel?" I have no idea where that idea comes from.

Heh. I remember... I made one therapist nearly cry as a ten-year-old when I answered every question with a shrug and a whispered "Idunnoknow". I mean, how the hell should I answer questions about how I feel or what I think in certain situations? :smallwink:

[tribble]

Ah, the Third Wave experiment, was it not? I loved that one. Though how faithful the film was to the actual details, I do not know.

I read the book, they just called it "the wave". I wonder if it's in the real life examples for "wham episode"

[Vmag]

Would you like to enumerate the reasons why professional psychology is a 'joke'? I've seen it save lives and greatly improve the quality of others.


I've known several people who have had their quality of life greatly improved by good therapists. It doesn't work for everybody, but

I've been to plenty. Most of them didn't help me very much.

The art of therapy is mostly listening, which is something a good friend does well (or, in my opinion, at least). Most of the psychologists/therapists I've had have flat-out told me they wouldn't give me advice on something. It seems like they prefer leading you to make your own healthy conclusion than telling you what healthy conclusion you should choose.

ra_Ika sums up perfectly my reasons for believing so. A psychologist's job is purely and entirely to listen and to let you draw your own conclusions. That is the extent of their help - any more and you could come back and say that they led you to make damaging decisions.

So pretty much you're paying someone to "uh huh" at hourly intervals, when friendships are free and abundant. Goldfish offer all the same benefits, but without the cost.

That's why I prefer the more hands-on approach, the likes of which licensed psychology wouldn't their school-bound graduates, wherein you're playing with blatant and audacious mental manipulation.

Because really, if you're going to claim that you're working with someone's psyche, you might as well go all the way.


Plus, I've seen people swear that magnets have greatly improved their lives and mental balance, but placebos abundant, ja?




Please don't go around encouraging people who might be having problems--entirely out of their own control--to not seek medical attention.

I totally didn't see this part. I suppose that they DO have the power to dispense mind-altering medication at their own discretion, but would you really consider them "medical"?

Thank you, thank you! That's the last I touch on THAT touchy subject before it totally takes this thread into aggressive territory.

[Moff Chumley]

Read those a while back... creepy stuff. Also, The great thing about shrinks is they can prescribe you anti-depressants. And those DEFINITELY work... >.>

[tribble]

Professional psychology is a joke. A joke with a good paycheck, but a joke nonetheless.

It's the noble and radical experiments that really get fun. Heck, if you find yourself in an area where other people exist, you can entertain yourself to no end by finding out what makes them tick and why. You'll never have to worry about being one-upped ever again, and the games you can play with a person's mind is immensely enjoyable.

Doc please, you can keep your 65 bucks an hour for asking me how I feel about things, I'm sure your very proud of that diploma of yours. Now being able to assess a person's very being, not just superficially but within the very depths of their greatest life-deciding factors... That's... that's fun :smallamused:



I would like to point out that psychologists know what NOT to say to crush the suicidal dude's fragile ego and send him over the edge into wrist-slitting.
probably something to that.

[SilveryCord]

Plus, I've seen people swear that magnets have greatly improved their lives and mental balance, but placebos abundant, ja?

OK, I can't really respond to any of the rest of the post because I'm so shocked by this. You really think that in the entire study of psychology as a science, and that through the entire history of psychotherapy, no one has run the numbers to see that their treatments (drug or therapywise) have a higher success rate than a placebo?

and I'm not sure you're using 'psychologist' the way you think you are? I'm a bit confused by some of your comments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_health_professional#Professional_distinctio ns)

[Cobra_Ikari]

OK, I can't really respond to any of the rest of the post because I'm so shocked by this. You really think that in the entire study of psychology as a science, and that through the entire history of psychotherapy, no one has run the numbers to see that their treatments (drug or therapywise) have a higher success rate than a placebo?

and I'm not sure you're using 'psychologist' the way you think you are? I'm a bit confused by some of your comments (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_health_professional#Professional_distinctio ns)

In my experience, psychiatrists are good for one thing and one thing only. That thing is medication.

I have gotten much better results out of therapy with psychologists and therapists.

[Moff Chumley]

This is true. Psychiatrists can conform to Vmag's image of them, whereas all of the Psychologists I've had are extremely intelligent, selfless people who've helped me learn more about myself than it's possible to imagine if you haven't had such an experience.

[Faulty]

If you ever need evidence that there is something wrong with our species in general, look no further.

We're also capable of extreme good. It depends on the situation. Life and humans are too varied to be simply wrong or right.

Something makes me think Vmag has never seen a therapist.

[Elfin]

That is very scary. :smalleek:

[kpenguin]

Um, what? I don't understand you.

I think we're working pretty much as we're designed to work.

[LurkerInPlayground]

my high school psychology class was discussing ethics today, and for an example of bad ethics we took a look at the stanford prison experiment. (http://www.prisonexp.org/)

ho-lee crap. the simultaneous power and fragility of the human mind terrified me. less than a week, and these ordinary college students are brought to this? can we even imagine what would have happened if the experiment had gone on for two weeks as planned? or what someone can do with someones mind over a month?

suddenly what the Joker did to Harley Quinn seems much more plausible.
There's the Milgram Obedience Experiment.

The take away lesson from WW2 always seems to be "Hitler was a bad guy." Instead something like ohhh . . . you don't need to be a bad person to do bad things.

[Jalor]

As several people have pointed out, there is a huge difference between psychiatrists and psychologists. The difference being the former can score you Prozac and the latter can help you understand your own mind.

[tribble]

There's the Milgram Obedience Experiment.

The take away lesson from WW2 always seems to be "Hitler was a bad guy." Instead something like ohhh . . . you don't need to be a bad person to do bad things.

yeah, we talked about that one too. the frightening thing about that one is that people will shock people to death because a guy in a lab coat says so... without any kind of conditioning or psychologic tampering at all.

[Faulty]

As several people have pointed out, there is a huge difference between psychiatrists and psychologists. The difference being the former can score you Prozac and the latter can help you understand your own mind.

I've had very helpful psychiatrists. A good psychiatrist will not prescribe something you don't need.


yeah, we talked about that one too. the frightening thing about that one is that people will shock people to death because a guy in a lab coat says so... without any kind of conditioning or psychologic tampering at all.

I would disagree. Children are raised in an authoritative manner, and are not allowed to develop morally as individuals but learn to see morality as it was dictated by a self-perpetuating authority. That kind of reering leads to people who are easily cow by someone in a position of authority.

[chiasaur11]

yeah, we talked about that one too. the frightening thing about that one is that people will shock people to death because a guy in a lab coat says so... without any kind of conditioning or psychologic tampering at all.

My plan is to immediately turn the knob to max, press the button, and demand my money.

Saves some time all around.

[V'icternus]

I studied phsychology a few years ago...

I'd like you all to know that everything you do was set up by me trhough phsychological tampering. Yes, even that. :smallwink:

[chiasaur11]

I studied phsychology a few years ago...

I'd like you all to know that everything you do was set up by me trhough phsychological tampering. Yes, even that. :smallwink:

You should be ashamed of yourself.

Also: Why'd you set up the thing with the Doberman?

Or was that a consequence of me reading Machiavelli?

[V'icternus]

No, that was just a result of bad timing on your part.

[Rutskarn]

Maybe a therapist could get this goddamn Chicken Song out of my head.

I'd accept any perversions of science if it got the job done.

[V'icternus]

I reccomend listening to it over and over again, every second you get the chance, until you forget to put it on, after which you'll forget it and it'll be out of your head.

[Rutskarn]

Maybe then I'll just pick at a scab until the moment I forget to keep picking it, at which point it'll heal forever.

[V'icternus]

That works, you know. Once you've satisfied your urge to pick at it/listen to a song, and stop doing it, your body heals.

[kpenguin]

I've had very helpful psychiatrists. A good psychiatrist will not prescribe something you don't need.

This is true. A good psychiatrist won't.

However, the way most health insurance plans works more or less encourage psychiatrists to prescribe medicine rather than provide psychotherapy.

[Starscream]

Maybe a therapist could get this goddamn Chicken Song out of my head.

I'd accept any perversions of science if it got the job done.

You're welcome. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frGLMtGsotc)

[Rutskarn]

You're welcome. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=frGLMtGsotc)

Oh no. I saw the browser heading and I shut that s*** down.

I don't know the lyrics to that song, and dammit, I'm going to maintain that particular state.

[chiasaur11]

Oh no. I saw the browser heading and I shut that s*** down.

I don't know the lyrics to that song, and dammit, I'm going to maintain that particular state.

The Tetris song might work.

It's a heck of an earworm.

[Rutskarn]

Naw, I'm immune. I like it though.

Hooold aaaa chicken in the ear, stick a deck chair up your nose

[kpenguin]

Oh no. I saw the browser heading and I shut that s*** down.

I don't know the lyrics to that song, and dammit, I'm going to maintain that particular state.

Life is like a hurricane here in Duckburg
Race cars, lasers, aeroplanes - it's a duck blur
You might solve a mystery or rewrite history

Duck Tales, Oo-oo
Tales of derring-do, bad and good luck tales, oo-oo

D-d-d-danger, watch behind you - there's a stranger out to find you
What to do? Just grab onto some Duck Tales, oo-oo!
Not pony tails or cotton tails but Duck Tales, oo-oo!

When it seems they're headed for the final curtain
Bold deduction never fails, that's for certain
The worst of messes become successes!

Duck Tales, Oo-oo
Tales of derring-do, bad and good luck tales, oo-oo
Not pony tails or cotton tails but Duck Tales, oo-oo!

:smallamused:

[Yulian]

That's why I prefer the more hands-on approach, the likes of which licensed psychology wouldn't their school-bound graduates, wherein you're playing with blatant and audacious mental manipulation.

Because really, if you're going to claim that you're working with someone's psyche, you might as well go all the way.


Plus, I've seen people swear that magnets have greatly improved their lives and mental balance, but placebos abundant, ja?





I totally didn't see this part. I suppose that they DO have the power to dispense mind-altering medication at their own discretion, but would you really consider them "medical"?


No, no no, that's psychiatry. Those are the people who get to hand out psychoactives, antipsychotics, and so on.




The take away lesson from WW2 always seems to be "Hitler was a bad guy." Instead something like ohhh . . . you don't need to be a bad person to do bad things.

Oh I dunno. I sort of think the ability to be swayed like that and then to go and do or condone horrible acts makes you a bad person. It's just the majority of humanity seems to be composed of "bad people". Remember, in the puppy experiment, 6 men refused to do it.

I know there are volumes of literature as to why people do this, but still I cannot refrain from the simple thought, "How weak they are.". Maybe that's just because I tend to be somewhat contrarian by nature and don't automatically listen to people who have no actual authority over me.

Some people do resist orders and authority if there's no good reason to obey, but it seems most do not.

- Yulian

[Rutskarn]

Oh I dunno. I sort of think the ability to be swayed like that and then to go and do or condone horrible acts makes you a bad person. It's just the majority of humanity seems to be composed of "bad people". Remember, in the puppy experiment, 6 men refused to do it.

- Yulian

In my view, it's not authority so much as groupthink that drove the establishment of Nazi doctrine. I say this humbly, as I (obviously) wasn't there.

kpenguin: Didn't see a word of that. My brain figured out what it was and blacked it out for me.

buy a jumbo jet, and then bury all your clothes

[Yulian]

Oh! I forgot a good fairly recent example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strip_search_prank_call_scam

Go down to the "Mount Washington, Kentucky incident", read that. Note how really malleable these dummies all seem to be. Then notice that one Thomas Simms didn't obey, got suspicious, and led to the whole thing finally ending.

I have not yet found any particular study describing that sort of person, the one that doesn't instinctively obey.

- Yulian

[Vmag]

No, no no, that's psychiatry.

Whoops. Did I misattribute it to psychology? I know I said I wouldn't touch on that particular subject again but, my bad. Good catch, shipmate.

[Syka]

Psychology is not scary- humans are scary.

Psychology and psychiatry can be extremely beneficial when practiced responsibly and by someone who cares. Unfortunately, many do not do it responsibly and only want the money. There is only one psychologist (he may be a psychiatrist, I'm not sure) whom I would actually trust as a therapist. He does not promote medication unless necessary and in conjunction with therapy, and is generally an amazing guy. He is pretty pricey, but I know on a number of occasions he has aided my friends and his students at no charge. Informally, but still. I remember when my GP wanted to put me on anti-anxiety for what he thought was panic attacks; I mentioned it to him (my teacher at the time), and he said if my GP tried it again, I could come to him free of charge and if anxiety was the problem, we'd fix it without meds.

THOSE are the therapists I love and respect. The guy who I went to up at school and began trying to dig in to something I was definitely not ready to talk about with someone I'd met 15 minutes before but kept insisting and ended up with me in tears? Those are the ones I despise.


That said, these experiements are meant to show that something as simple as authority rather than sadistic tendencies can be the cause of 'bad' things, such as the atrocities carried out by the Nazi's. Yes, they theoretically could have said no. But the effect on a psyche which has been raised to believe authority is all and you always need to listen to authority is great. And this happens even in people who were not raised in authoritarian homes. Conformity and acceptance are basic human drives for most people.

[Fifty-Eyed Fred]

PS - None of my therapists have EVER asked "And how does that make you feel?" I have no idea where that idea comes from.

*gets out notebook* Tell me about your mother.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Conditioning.....only good in a shampo bottle!

Lather, Rinse, OBEY! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwPl-EVVyTE)


Read those a while back... creepy stuff. Also, The great thing about shrinks is they can prescribe you anti-depressants. And those DEFINITELY work... >.>

Sorta... side effects are an issue. You also have to make actual changes in your lifestyle so that once you're off the drugs your depression doesn't pick back up are also necessary components of treating depression.

Also, you're thinking of Psychiatrists, someone with an MD, instead of Psychologists, someone with a Master's or PhD.



Plus, I've seen people swear that magnets have greatly improved their lives and mental balance, but placebos abundant, ja?

Magnets actually work.

They do useful things such as entertain you when bored and hold important phone numbers and appointment dates to your refrigerator so you don't have to stress over remembering them.

[chiasaur11]

Lather, Rinse, OBEY! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwPl-EVVyTE)



Sorta... side effects are an issue. You also have to make actual changes in your lifestyle so that once you're off the drugs your depression doesn't pick back up are also necessary components of treating depression.

Also, you're thinking of Psychiatrists, someone with an MD, instead of Psychologists, someone with a Master's or PhD.



Magnets actually work.

They do useful things such as entertain you when bored and hold important phone numbers and appointment dates to your refrigerator so you don't have to stress over remembering them.

And they let you stick legos to the fridge.

[Yulian]

*gets out notebook* Tell me about your mother.

Yeah? How about I tell you about your mother?

Burn!

- Yulian

[chiasaur11]

Yeah? How about I tell you about your mother?

Burn!

- Yulian

Let me tell you about my mother.
[Chk-Chk]

BLAM!


(Oh, Blade Runner, you have so many tips for psych testing)

[Avilan the Grey]

my high school psychology class was discussing ethics today, and for an example of bad ethics we took a look at the stanford prison experiment. (http://www.prisonexp.org/)

ho-lee crap. the simultaneous power and fragility of the human mind terrified me. less than a week, and these ordinary college students are brought to this? can we even imagine what would have happened if the experiment had gone on for two weeks as planned? or what someone can do with someones mind over a month?

suddenly what the Joker did to Harley Quinn seems much more plausible.

Personally I feel this experiment was a very American one (American high security prisons are quite unique in the western world); and although I find it disturbing, I also find several things that (as a non-professional with no education in the matter) that makes the whole thing feel like this was a political as much as a social experiment:

1) the heavily hinted at opinion that arresting officers are by default "mean" and "bad" and that being arrested, in itself is a "de-humanizing expericene". This is a very strongly hinted political position.

2) The "guards" was intentionally pushing this as far as they could, to get the results they wanted for their study. The text on the homepage regarding this also seems to have a political undertone.

Now, again, this is obviously a very American-specific experiment; not that people break down or are cruel, but being able to go this far in a "prison" simulation is almost only possible in the western world if you emulate an American high security facility.
Worse things than this has happened in prisons. I know that; I watch CBS 60 minutes as often as I can. But this experiment do seem to be carrying a heavy political load as well, which is hinted at in the text of the slide show on the home page.

[Dracomorph]

I always figured the Milgram experiment didn't so much say that "people are bad," rather that "people trust those who are supposed to be acting in everyone's best interests."

Naivete is not the same as evil. Most people just never get the shock that jars them out of basic cultural indoctrination.

Now, the Stanford Prison Experiment is scary. Qui custodet ipsos custodes, and so forth. This is why it's important to have rules and laws. Not because punishing the behavior always works, but because people are usually conditioned to obey them, so they nag at your mind, and slow down bad behavior.

[Avilan the Grey]

Now, the Stanford Prison Experiment is scary. Qui custodet ipsos custodes, and so forth. This is why it's important to have rules and laws. Not because punishing the behavior always works, but because people are usually conditioned to obey them, so they nag at your mind, and slow down bad behavior.

Yes it is scary. This is why it is important to have things like laws, regulations, overseers, and a mean for whistle-blowers to contact higher-ups outside without fear of loosing jobs. And a thorough process in selecting guards from a psychological standpoint (will this person be able to be put in a position of power without endangering him/herself and/or the well being of the prisoners?)

This experiment did not do these things, obviously. It seems they intentionally pushed a lot of the "do not push" buttons to create a specific result (I am not saying that the end result was even worse than they had gunned for, obviously, they do seem rather shocked at the result).

[Faulty]

This is why it is important to have things like laws, regulations, overseers

I always saw it as a reason not to.

[Renegade Paladin]

I always saw it as a reason not to.
Because anarchy, known to those with sense as the tyranny of the strong, is so much better, amirite? :smallsigh:

[Faulty]

tyranny of the strong

Wait, what?

[Cobra_Ikari]

Because anarchy, known to those with sense as the tyranny of the strong, is so much better, amirite? :smallsigh:

Anarchy is no more a tyranny of the strong than any form of government it. It's simply more localized.

[Don Julio Anejo]

On Milgram, Nazi and obedience: it's never black and white. You refuse to do something bad to some poor soul in a concentration camp? Well, next week someone else is now doing it to you because you disobeyed an order. Or you get shipped off to the Eastern Front. Don't even know which one's worse.

True, what you were doing is bad and you shouldn't do it at all, but it's not like you have any choice in the matter to begin with.

On psychology:

Oh please. The only therapists who sit and nod for an hour are the ones in the movies (where, incidentally, they also tend to be slimy old men who want to sleep with anyone and everyone or are super strict women who'd be better off working as prison disciplinarians). Read up on, for example, cognitive behavioural therapy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_behavioral_therapy). Shown to be very effective for a number of things.... From regular depression to panic attacks to social phobias.

PS: psychiatrist isn't the guy who can score you Prozac. Most have too much self-respect for that. A GP on the other hand... Very much so. If I had my way I would actually prohibit GPs from prescribing most antidepressants (well, just the ones that make you feel good) since they have to be carefully selected, combined and dosed to be effective and to prevent any harm.

PPS: about GPs - I work for a guy like that. "Your foot hurts? Here, have a Prozac!"

[Rutskarn]

Anarchy is no more a tyranny of the strong than any form of government it. It's simply more localized.

And less focused, and less just. For the most part, anyway.

Over a small patch of territory, for a given length of time, anarchy can work. So can any system of government, given those circumstances.

paint your left knee green, extract all your wisdom teeth...

[Faulty]

Anarchy actually has nothing to do with that. If you're curious, PM me. I can send you a link.

[Renegade Paladin]

Wait, what?
Without the rule of law, you default to the rule of man. He who is strongest takes what he wants from those he can without law to stand in his way, whether what he wants is material goods, obedience, or whatever else. Anarchy is by definition brutal and unsustainable, because whoever has the strength to do so will set up a government, and unless that person or group of people is uncommonly high-minded, it will be a tyrannical one in his/their favor.

As for the Stanford Prison Experiment itself, yes, it's a very scary thing, and in fact perfectly demonstrates what happens when you give most people power without restraint on their behavior (hey anarchy, looking at you).

[Faulty]

Without the rule of law, you default to the rule of man. He who is strongest takes what he wants from those he can without law to stand in his way, whether what he wants is material goods, obedience, or whatever else. Anarchy is by definition brutal and unsustainable, because whoever has the strength to do so will set up a government, and unless that person or group of people is uncommonly high-minded, it will be a tyrannical one in his/their favor.

That is actually not what Anarchy is at all. That's chaos, not anarchy. Anarchy is about a structure of egalitarian, free association.

[Renegade Paladin]

That is actually not what Anarchy is at all. That's chaos, not anarchy. Anarchy is about a structure of egalitarian, free association.
No it isn't; it's about not having a government. You don't get to redefine words to suit your purpose.

[Faulty]

No it isn't; it's about not having a government. You don't get to redefine words to suit your purpose.

"Anarchy" comes from the Greek "an" (meaning "not", "a lack of", "without", etc.) and "archy" (meaning "authority"). Anarchy means "without authority", not "without order".

[kpenguin]

That is actually not what Anarchy is at all. That's chaos, not anarchy. Anarchy is about a structure of egalitarian, free association.

Hello, V.:smalltongue:

[Faulty]

Hello, V.:smalltongue:

Does he say that in the book? Because I haven't read it in years.

Alan Moore is actually an Anarchist. Which explains V for Vendetta and why Rorschach is a miserable psychopath.

[Renegade Paladin]

"Anarchy" comes from the Greek "an" (meaning "not", "a lack of", "without", etc.) and "archy" (meaning "authority"). Anarchy means "without authority", not "without order".
Okay, we'll play your game. In a society with no authority, what prevents someone with the means from making himself the authority?

[Elfin]

I just can't get the Stanford Prison Expirement out of my mind...it haunts my every waking hour.
Actually, all my hours.
It's just so very...creepy. :smalleek:

[Renegade Paladin]

I just can't get the Stanford Prison Expirement out of my mind...it haunts my every waking hour.
Actually, all my hours.
It's just so very...creepy. :smalleek:
Yes, it is. There's nothing to be done about it except hope that you're a better person than that... and that you're never put in a position to find out.

[Faulty]

Okay, we'll play your game. In a society with no authority, what prevents someone with the means from making himself the authority?

An anarchist society would be organized in a free associative manner. Rather than "authority" there would be compulsory association, and large scale organization would be in the form of federations. There would be organization which would have no organ with which one could "make himself the authority".

[Renegade Paladin]

An anarchist society would be organized in a free associative manner. Rather than "authority" there would be compulsory association, and large scale organization would be in the form of federations. There would be organization which would have no organ with which one could "make himself the authority".
Ah, but without authority, how is anything compulsory? You contradict yourself at the very first, as is to be expected when trying to concoct a way to gain the benefit of something without having to pay. :smallamused:

[Faulty]

Ah, but without authority, how is anything compulsory? You contradict yourself at the very first, as is to be expected when trying to concoct a way to gain the benefit of something without having to pay. :smallamused:

^ I meant non-compulsory. So I didn't contradict myself, I just mistyped. I'm also not trying to "gain the benefit" here; Anarchism is a philosophy that has existed under that name for nearly 200 years. :smallconfused: I'm through with the conversation, because this is going to start edging into non-forum ruley territory. I'll send you a PM.

[chiasaur11]

Yes, it is. There's nothing to be done about it except hope that you're a better person than that... and that you're never put in a position to find out.

Well, that, and file it somewhere in your mind so's you'll remember if that kind of thing comes up.

[Cobra_Ikari]

Hmm. You know, in thinking about it, it is impossible for anarchy to be the tyranny of the strong.

It would be more accurate to call anarchy inheritly unstable to the point of not being able to exist for any reasonable period of time.

[kpenguin]

Since anarchy is a political system, I doubt this conversation is appropriate for the boards. In the hopes of not getting this thread locked, could you please take it to the PMs?

Anyway, one would hope that a field like psychology would be scary at times. I suspect most fields of study are, if one would care to look hard enough.

[Blackdrop]

Going back to the horror stories on the front page for a moment, Dr. Walter Freeman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Freeman_(surgeon)) might take the cake.

The short version: Feel around on the upper part of your eyesocket. Feel that little indent? Imagine having a mallet-propelled icepick go through there so that some cackling madman could lobotmize you. Now imagine that he did that to 3500 different people.

[Faulty]

Since anarchy is a political system, I doubt this conversation is appropriate for the boards. In the hopes of not getting this thread locked, could you please take it to the PMs?

Yeah, I did. I didn't think it would go past the original comment.


Going back to the horror stories on the front page for a moment, Dr. Walter Freeman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Freeman_(surgeon)) might take the cake.

The short version: Feel around on the upper part of your eyesocket. Feel that little indent? Imagine having a mallet-propelled icepick go through there so that some cackling madman could lobotmize you. Now imagine that he did that to 3500 different people.

Quoth wikipedia:

"lobotomobile"

That is the most morbid thing ever.

[chiasaur11]

Going back to the horror stories on the front page for a moment, Dr. Walter Freeman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Freeman_(surgeon)) might take the cake.

The short version: Feel around on the upper part of your eyesocket. Feel that little indent? Imagine having a mallet-propelled icepick go through there so that some cackling madman could lobotmize you. Now imagine that he did that to 3500 different people.

Thing is, that's just one (Incredibly prolific) madman. And he's dead now.

It's the horrible things that anyone can do that really give me the hibby jibbies.

[kpenguin]

Quick, Robin, to the lobotomobile!

[Faulty]

Thing is, that's just one (Incredibly prolific) madman. And he's dead now.

It's the horrible things that anyone can do that really give me the hibby jibbies.

Yeah, but they require specific situations. That guy was a self-perpetuating loony.

[Icewalker]

Read all the information on the site about the experiment. I find it impressive that all that happened considering the level of detail they knew about before entering the experiment. Pretty terrifying.

I started reading a paper on the site, about the power of good and evil and how people can change between the two situationally. Very interesting.

[LurkerInPlayground]

I always figured the Milgram experiment didn't so much say that "people are bad," rather that "people trust those who are supposed to be acting in everyone's best interests."
Way to squarely miss my point.

Which is that people always associate evil with malice. That's simply not the case. Evil can simply be an accident. Or in our case, institutional.

Milgram shows that Germany did what it did out of a sense of duty to higher authority. We didn't absolve responsibility simply because an officer "was just following orders."

But the take away lesson people always take out of WW2 is that wars ought to be romantic with clear sides that represent cosmic good and evil. That Hitler was the iconic bad guy. Nevermind that Stalin killed more people and enjoyed, for a time, a reputation as an ally who helped in the war.

As a result, our military is geared for the assumption of industrial warfare because we can't quite let go of that past where all one had to do is march into the face of an enemy. And people *always* are seeking to anthropmorphize evil or ascribe it some kind of supernatural status.

The real joke to Milgram is that a decent person, one who has friends and family and can feel compassion can still be made to torture another person in the name of a higher cause.

The Stanford Prison experiment is in the same boat as Milgram's experiment. Because when it comes down to it, it shows that morality is not a matter of being "good."

It's merely a matter of having motivations and values -- and shockingly enough, the ability to value abstract principles more highly than people. It just means that you are capable of delaying gratification for some higher profit, even if it means killing people to do it.

[Dracomorph]

Way to squarely miss my point.

I'm so sorry, I didn't know that speaking generally about something meant I was addressing you directly.


Which is that people always associate evil with malice. That's simply not the case. Evil can simply be an accident. Or in our case, institutional.

Milgram shows that Germany did what it did out of a sense of duty to higher authority. We didn't absolve responsibility simply because an officer "was just following orders."

Legally, in fact, we did. And the realities of institutional evil really say nothing new about the human condition that weren't already there to see, if you look at history, recent or otherwise. Forgive me for not being surprised that people don't like being shown that your next door neighbor could be a torturer in the right circumstances.


But the take away lesson people always take out of WW2 is that wars ought to be romantic with clear sides that represent cosmic good and evil. That Hitler was the iconic bad guy. Nevermind that Stalin killed more people and enjoyed, for a time, a reputation as an ally who helped in the war.

As a result, our military is geared for the assumption of industrial warfare because we can't quite let go of that past where all one had to do is march into the face of an enemy. And people *always* are seeking to anthropmorphize evil or ascribe it some kind of supernatural status.

Yes, this is a flaw in logic known as "wishful thinking." It would be nice if we could say that the enemy is always and unequivocally evil, and wears uniforms with skulls on to show it. For instance, while Stalin committed horrendous crimes against the Russian people, he also made them a world power.

I think the lesson here is that ignorance is scary. If evil, or whatever you want to call it, were knowable, and fightable in a direct confrontation, it would be easy to call people to act on it. I can't find fault in a person just because they would prefer the world to be a simpler place.


The real joke to Milgram is that a decent person, one who has friends and family and can feel compassion can still be made to torture another person in the name of a higher cause.

The Stanford Prison experiment is in the same boat as Milgram's experiment. Because when it comes down to it, it shows that morality is not a matter of being "good."

It's merely a matter of having motivations and values -- and shockingly enough, the ability to value abstract principles more highly than people. It just means that you are capable of delaying gratification for some higher profit, even if it means killing people to do it.

Would you say that it is worth one person's life to guarantee civil rights for all people everywhere?

Because after that, we're just haggling over price.

The ability to delay gratification is one of the key principles that let humanity become a dominant species in the first place. Just because it is morally neutral doesn't mean it isn't incredibly valuable. The same is true about the willingness to sacrifice for a cause. Without that, there would be no such thing as civil rights, for instance, because lives and bodily integrity were sacrificed to get them. And still are being sacrificed, in other parts of the world than my own.

Just because psychologists can show ways to abuse these qualities, doesn't make the qualities bad.

[Seffbasilisk]

The human animal is a beautiful and terrible creature, capable of limitless compassion and unfathomable cruelty. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCZ00NYqjSY)

[Khanderas]

ra_Ika sums up perfectly my reasons for believing so. A psychologist's job is purely and entirely to listen and to let you draw your own conclusions. That is the extent of their help - any more and you could come back and say that they led you to make damaging decisions.

So pretty much you're paying someone to "uh huh" at hourly intervals, when friendships are free and abundant. Goldfish offer all the same benefits, but without the cost. <Cut>
I do agree that having a good friend that listens to you is a great help for mental well being, perhaps we can go so far and say it is the first step to have.

However for some that is not an option or not enough. Some people do have deep seated psychological problems that can't be resolved by a sympathetic friend. That is if a friend is really around after a couple of years of "I'm sad all the time and I don't know why" talk. (And dont get us started on a "good" friend should stick by you though such things, that is Utopian thoughts that has no bearing in a discussion about psycholigal problems.)

To have the patient come to his own conclusions is a given. It's not like you can say "Dont worry, be happy, because it is all in your head so decide to be happy and you suddenly are" and expect it to work. Noone can change another person like that by just TELLING them how to feel.
Now a skilled shrink can (problebly) identify the psychological paths and patterns of thought inherent in the human mind and know what buttons to press.
Much like any other job thats the skill that is paid for. Getting something fixed on your car can cost alot, even when you afterwords can say "hey I coulda done that if I had the tools and knew what the problem was", when the fact of the matter is you DONT know what the problem was or had the tools to fix it.

[Serpentine]

Just in case nobody else picked up on it...

Professional psychology is a joke. A joke with a good paycheck, but a joke nonetheless... Doc please, you can keep your 65 bucks an hour for asking me how I feel about things, I'm sure your very proud of that diploma of yours. Now being able to assess a person's very being, not just superficially but within the very depths of their greatest life-deciding factors... That's... that's fun :smallamused:Psychologists study the human mind and how it works. It is the basis of psychiatry and counselling and the like, but in the same way that physiology and biochemistry are the basis of medicine, or chemistry is the basis of pharmacology, or botany is the basis of gardening, or...

Other than that, some interesting stuff has come out of some messed up experiments...