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Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-03, 06:43 PM
My DM has created a homebrew class for his upcoming campaign, and I was wondering if I could get some opinions on it. I'm toying with the idea of playing the class, but I am a complete rube when it comes to judging balance and brokeness.

Here's the class, the Clockwork Scholar:
Over the past few decades, a few hundred tinkers and thinkers have grouped together into an informal fraternity, dedicated to unearthing the mysteries of the lost civilizations from the Age of Gold and the Age of Ashes. The greatest of these civilizations was that of the Clockwork Servants, and their special concern for these dangerous constructs has earned them the name "Clockwork Scholars".

Scholars have a particular affinity for creating constructs and artifacts, eventually learning how to summon Clockwork Servants of their own, and even enhancing their bodies and minds with arcane implants. While they are neither spectacular combatants nor versatile spellcasters, they are fast, tough, and have an uncanny proficiency with strange or forgotten weapons.

Hit die: d10

REQUIREMENTS
Abilities: Intelligence is necessary for both the scholar's spells and extra skill points, which are absolutely vital. Dexterity is also very helpful, since scholars are best at unarmored, ranged combat.
Alignment: Any lawful.

CLASS SKILLS
Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (mystical) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex)
Skill points at first level: (2 +Int modifier)*4
Skill points at each additional level: 2 +Int modifier

BASE ATTACK BONUSES
Level 1: +0
Level 2: +1
Level 3: +2
Level 4: +3
Level 5: +3
Level 6: +4
Level 7: +5
Level 8: +6/+1
Level 9: +6/+1
Level 10: +7/+2
Level 11: +8/+3
Level 12: +9/+4
Level 13: +9/+4
Level 14: +10/+5
Level 15: +11/+6/+1
Level 16: +12/+7/+2
Level 17: +12/+7/+2
Level 18: +13/+8/+3
Level 19: +14/+9/+4
Level 20: +15/+10/+5

SAVING THROWS
Level 1: +0 to all
Level 2: +0 to all
Level 3: +1 to all
Level 4: +1 to all
Level 5: +1 to all
Level 6: +2 to all
Level 7: +2 to all
Level 8: +2 to all
Level 9: +3 to all
Level 10: +3 to all
Level 11: +3 to all
Level 12: +4 to all
Level 13: +4 to all
Level 14: +4 to all
Level 15: +5 to all
Level 16: +5 to all
Level 17: +5 to all
Level 18: +6 to all
Level 19: +6 to all
Level 20: +6 to all

SPECIAL
Level 1: Clockwork Summon, Fast Movement
Level 2: -
Level 3: +2 to Intelligence
Level 4: -
Level 5: -
Level 6: +2 to Dexterity
Level 7: -
Level 8: -
Level 9: +2 to Wisdom
Level 10: Iron Will
Level 11: -
Level 12: +2 to Strength
Level 13: -
Level 14: -
Level 15: +2 to Charisma
Level 16: -
Level 17: -
Level 18: +2 to Constitution
Level 19: -
Level 20: Clockwork Savior

SPELLS PER DAY
As the standard sorcerer.

CLASS FEATURES
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Scholars are proficient with all exotic weapons.

Spells: A scholar casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the scholar spell list (see below). She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a scholar must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 +the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a scholar's spell is 10 +the spell level +the scholar's Intelligence modifier. Like other spellcasters, a scholar can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given in Table 3-16 of the "PHB". In addition, she recieves bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score (see Table 1-1 of the "PHB").

Clockwork Summon: A scholar can obtain a Clockwork Servant. Doing so takes 1d20 days. If the Clockwork Servant dies or is dismissed by the scholar, she may gain a new one after another 1d20 days. The construct serves as assistant and bodyguard; though it is not equipped with any possessions, it will remain within 50 feet of the scholar at all times, and defend her with its natural attacks and programmed spells.

The scholar can communicate telepathically with the Clockwork Servant, and give it simple commands, such as "heal this character" or "attack that monster". It can also be keyed to perform specific tasks at specific times, or when certain conditions are met. It will not obey the commands of anyone except the scholar, nor will it move over 50 feet away from her, even if she tells it to do so.

At 1st to 5th level, the Clockwork Servant is a Scarab, with a 1d2 multitool. At 6th to 10th level, the Clockwork Servant is a Surgeon, with four 1d4 claws. At 11th to 15th level, the Clockwork Servant is a Soldier, with two 1d6 masterwork saps and two 1d3 masterwork whips. At 16th to 20th level, the Clockwork Servant is a Serpent, with a 2d8 slam and a 4d6 bite.

Fast Movement: A scholar's land speed is faster than the norm for her race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when she is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the scholar's speed because of any load carried or armor worn. For example, a halfling scholar has a speed of 30 feet, rather than 20 feet, when wearing light or no armor. When wearing medium armor or carrying a medium load, her speed drops to 20 feet.

Implant Bonuses: Starting at 3rd level, a scholar adds two points to a given ability score every three levels. For example, a scholar adds two points to her Intelligence score at 3rd level, two points to her Dexterity score at 6th level, and so on. This is in addition to ability points gained every fourth level, and ability points gained or lost with age.

Iron Will: A scholar gains Iron Will as a bonus feat at 10th level.

Clockwork Savior: At 20th level, the scholar permanently becomes a construct. Her type changes to construct, and as a result she gains low-light vision, darkvision out to 60 feet, immunity to all mind-affecting effects and sleep effects, immunity to all death effects and necromancy effects, and immunity to poison, paralysis, stunning and disease. She is not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability damage, ability drain, fatigue, exhaustion or energy drain. She no longer suffers penalties for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any aging penalties she may already have suffered, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the scholar still dies of old age when her time is up.

SPELL LIST
0th-Level: detect magic, detect poison, flare, know direction, touch of fatigue
1st-Level: alarm, cure light wounds, expeditious retreat, magic missile, remove fear, shield
2nd-Level: blindness/deafness, cure moderate wounds, darkvision, invisibility, locate object, obscure object, pyrotechnics, scorching ray
3rd-Level: clairvoyance, cure serious wounds, fireball, sleet storm, stinking cloud
4th-Level: arcane eye, detect scrying, greater invisibility, ice storm
5th-Level: cloudkill, mind fog, prying eyes, teleport
6th-Level: animate object, disintegrate, true seeing
7th-Level: control weather, mass invisibility, reverse gravity
8th-Level: clone, sunburst, temporal stasis
9th-Level: gate, meteor swarm, teleportation circle
What do you think? Good? Bad? Ugly?

Every character in this setting starts with the following array to plug into stats: 15, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10

The following races are available: halflings, changelings, feytouched, planetouched, goblins, hobgoblins and kobolds (though I'm trying to swing being the last human in the world).

Kylarra
2009-09-03, 06:51 PM
If they really gain the construct type they should lose their con score. :smalltongue:

Should change CLW (and similar upgrades) for the repair spells.

Honestly, it smacks too much of Mary Sue- ship to me, putting D10 HD, the spells you want (I see typical "I are blaster mage and healer at the same time" spells) and average BAB all in the same class.

Milskidasith
2009-09-03, 06:57 PM
The spell list is very limited and doesn't make too much sense. Teleport but no greater teleport? A scholar type with Meteor Swarm, but not Time Stop? etc. Also, +2 to Con when you gain the construct subtype and lose it?

It's weird, but it certainly isn't bad. Maybe OP, but not absurdly so.

Kylarra
2009-09-03, 06:59 PM
The spell list is very limited and doesn't make too much sense. Yeah that's what I meant by "spells you (generic you referring to the creator) want", since it's rather haphazard and doesn't really follow any formula that I can see beyond "things you (again generic reference to creator) would want to cast while turning into a robot".

pingcode20
2009-09-03, 07:00 PM
Repair does make more sense. Although, yeah, they don't really follow any theme.

But I might point out that with no good saves, the Clockwork Scholar is going to be in a lot of trouble from anything with special abilities. Even with every save going up by a bonus +1 during the scholar's progression and Iron Will.

The Dark Fiddler
2009-09-03, 07:08 PM
What jumps out at me is that it has a metric ton of Class Skills, but almost no skill points.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-03, 07:19 PM
Seems pretty good, though I'd see if I could expand the spell list more...take Arcane Disciple a few times, maybe.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-03, 07:57 PM
What would be some good suggestions for improvement that I could bring to my DM?

Milskidasith
2009-09-03, 08:00 PM
I'd suggest a bit more of a themed spell list, and making the whole "construct" subtype thing work better. Maybe a few more spells, or at least opportunities to learn more.

However, as written, this class is still a very powerful thing, so it doesn't need the help for anything but flavor.

Also, the whole "clockwork changes" thing is a bit odd. I'd just have it be like an animal companion, but with different forms and the construct subtype. Hell, construct animal companion would be good as is.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-03, 08:02 PM
Hmm...I see. One of my other friends said it looked UNDERpowered, strangely enough.:smallconfused:

Curmudgeon
2009-09-03, 08:02 PM
This class has too much of a lot of things. It gets 9th level spells, a bunch of special abilities, and lots of hit points. The HD shouldn't be above a d6; d10 is just WAY out of line.

Milskidasith
2009-09-03, 08:05 PM
Hmm...I see. One of my other friends said it looked UNDERpowered, strangely enough.:smallconfused:

It's got great but not the best spellcasting, great but not the best HD, good special abilities, a good skill list, and what's essentially a (weaker) construct animal companion. The only bad things it gets are saves and skills per level. It's like a king of all trades, and it's easily Tier 1, even if it isn't really competitive on the "crazy powerful constantly foresighted and warded and greater anticipate teleporting and epic warding against this and that wizards" circuit.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-03, 08:10 PM
Here's what my friend told me:

I dunno, the class seems really... underpowered to me.

First off, a class like this MUST have summon monster or planar ally in it's subset allowing it to summon clockwork horrors and other types of monsters. The flavor of the class lends itself to being a backline buffer and summoner, yet the texts almost favor an underpowered monk.The clockwork compainion also seems underpowered, and slightly under explained. Does it use your BAB, health, and other things as if it where a familiar? Can you channel spells through it? Does it convey any other benefits? Next, their should definatly be much more in the way of special abilities for this class. While a +2 to things is nice, it's not nearly enough to make up for a lacking spell list and a monks BAB progression. Seriously, in my honest opinion, a fighter is better off than this, at least it can take plenty of feats to make itself good. 3.5 was a game of specilization, and this class doesn't seem to know what it is, or do a good job of doing any of it.
And here's what he offered for suggestions when I asked him:

Well, first off, decide what it's gonna be. A front liner or a backer? If a front liner, give more powers that allow the scholar to enhance himself. If in the back, add more spell abilities and special abilites and drop the BAB down a notch, as well as the health. If your hardlined determined to mix the two, then concentrate on the idea that a scholar doesn't fight alone. Give him powers to summon or control multiple summons easily so that he can get flanking and tacticle bonuses for fighting with clockwork aid.

Milskidasith
2009-09-03, 08:14 PM
He's got Gate. Any other methods of summoning hordes of monsters are... inefficient.

Start Bloodwar 2: Electric Bugaloo with gate. In one round.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-03, 08:33 PM
Yeah, but he won't start off with Gate, and even then, Gate's really expensive. He should have a type of summoning for each level it's available if he summons anything at all, right?

Milskidasith
2009-09-03, 08:35 PM
Give him a custom spell Summon Construct. It summons a construct version of Summon Nature's Ally summons, or maybe something else at higher levels, it's really up to your imagination. Let him sacrifice spell slots for it.

Now you have a mech themed semi-druid semi-wizard.

Also, gate only requires one short term casting to gate in everything; you gate in a solar, and then it gates in a solar, etc.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-03, 08:36 PM
Yeah, but what about the xp cost?

Kylarra
2009-09-03, 08:37 PM
It kind of depends on the stats of his clockwork companion, unless I'm missing something where that is actually referenced, in which case ignore this post.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-03, 08:39 PM
This class is pretty vague, isn't it? And I have to take a level in an NPC class before I can even take my first level in it!

Dublock
2009-09-03, 08:43 PM
you have to take a level in a NPC class before this class? So you can't even get the cap stone ability? Thats not cool

Starbuck_II
2009-09-03, 08:46 PM
By level you can Gate, you can afford it because you'll get enough every battle to pay for Gate.
Now sure you'll not gain as much XP but every battle (assuming no mooks you wasting spells on) should grant enough to more than recoup the loss.

I think is the monk of a caster:
It has no focus or choice of a focus.

Raises Ability scores, but Construct?!
If we change that to Warforged type Construct (living construct) then the Con makes sense.

I'd perfer seeing a Green Star Adept Base class (without the cost) if they are going to add stuff like ability bonuses.

The caster has a good idea, but not a great execution.

woodenbandman
2009-09-03, 08:55 PM
This inspired me to make a homebrew class. Thanks.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-03, 09:23 PM
Here are a few suggestions that I've compiled to ask my DM (we're meeting tommorow at the local Erbert's and Gerbert's for sandwiches):

Just what kind of class is this supposed to be? Does it fight from up front or from the rear? Is it a summoner? Buffer? A monk?

How exactly DOES the Clockwork companion work? Like a familiar? An animal companion? Does it use your BAB, health, and other things as if it where a familiar? Can you channel spells through it? Does it convey any other benefits?

Should the implants be changed? A +2 to CON is nice, but it's useless once you hit level 20, at which point you become a construct, and you technically stop having a CON score.

A class like this MUST have summon monster or planar ally in it's subset allowing it to summon clockwork horrors and other types of monsters. There should also likely be more summoning spells in its repetoire as well. Perhaps the Cure spells could be replaced with Make Whole, Mending, and other spells that heal constructs but not people?

Plus, the reason why sorcs and wizards get so little in the way of class abilities is the sheer size of their spell list and amount of spells. Thus, he's going to need a lot more to make up for his vastly shortened spell list.

Think this covers everything?

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-05, 09:34 AM
Okay, I've spoken with my DM and there are are several changes he's planning to make.

First off, instead of turning into a construct at level 20, the character becomes a living construct with a houseruled 60 ft. darkvision. The reasoning behind this is that the archetype the class was going for is a person that becomes more machine than man, but there is still good in him.

I managed to swing playing as a human (they're extinct in the setting) by being a human that was catapaulted into the future via a time-travel experiment. This has actually been done before in our group, with our elf bard and her elf cleric cohort suffering brain damage upon arrival that buried their memories about the time they came from. My character won't suffer the same brain damage, instead recieving terrible burns that will leave permanent scars.

That's right. I'm gonna play Darth Vader. :smallcool:

Secondly, we've gotten some clarifications on the Clockwork Companion. It's supposed to work like an animal companion apparently.

He's also planning on adding a few more features to make up for the lack of spells.

The class is apparently supposed to be similar to a ranger, in that they fight with a ranged weapon (they are automatically proficient with guns and other modern weaponry, though the world's current level of technology only has muskets, or more advanced firearms that may be found buried), and they have a companion that helps them fight, with some spells to mix it up.

How does that all sound to you?

Grumman
2009-09-05, 09:58 AM
I've got another suggestion: play a Urban Druid (Dragon Magazine Compendium) 10 / Renegade Mastermaker (Magic of Eberron) 10. Use the Summon Desert Ally spells from Sandstorm to summon constructs, take an animated object as your urban companion, and turn into a living construct, just like you wanted.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-05, 10:13 AM
I don't have the latter book, and it's more for my DM to approve. Besides that, I have to take a level of an NPC class to start out with.

Grumman
2009-09-05, 10:52 AM
I don't have the latter book, and it's more for my DM to approve.
And something you made from scratch isn't?


Besides that, I have to take a level of an NPC class to start out with.
Fine then: NPCClass 1 / Urban Druid 5 / Renegade Mastermaker 10 / ??? 4

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-05, 11:14 AM
At least my DM can work on the homebrew to improve it. I'm not allowed to have my own books for another five weeks, I don't know where I'd be able to get Magic of Eberron or Sandstorm, and even if I did my mom doesn't want me buying any more D&D books.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-06, 12:26 PM
My DM has revised the class a bit. Here's the new and improved Clockwork Scholar!
THE CLOCKWORK SCHOLAR

Over the past few decades, a few hundred tinkers and thinkers have grouped together into an informal fraternity, dedicated to unearthing the mysteries of the lost civilizations from the Age of Gold and the Age of Ashes. The greatest of these civilizations was that of the Clockwork Servants, and their special concern for these dangerous constructs has earned them the name "Clockwork Scholars".

Scholars have a particular affinity for creating constructs and artifacts, eventually learning how to summon Clockwork Servants of their own, and even enhancing their bodies and minds with arcane implants. While they are neither spectacular combatants nor versatile spellcasters, they are fast, tough, and have an uncanny proficiency with strange or forgotten weapons.

Hit die: d10

REQUIREMENTS
Abilities: Intelligence is necessary for both the scholar's spells and extra skill points, which are absolutely vital. Dexterity is also very helpful, since scholars are best at unarmored, ranged combat.
Alignment: Any lawful.

CLASS SKILLS
Balance (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (geography) (Int), Knowledge (history) (Int), Knowledge (mystical) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), Tumble (Dex)
Skill points at first level: (2 +Int modifier)*4
Skill points at each additional level: 2 +Int modifier

BASE ATTACK BONUSES
Level 1: +0
Level 2: +1
Level 3: +2
Level 4: +3
Level 5: +3
Level 6: +4
Level 7: +5
Level 8: +6/+1
Level 9: +6/+1
Level 10: +7/+2
Level 11: +8/+3
Level 12: +9/+4
Level 13: +9/+4
Level 14: +10/+5
Level 15: +11/+6/+1
Level 16: +12/+7/+2
Level 17: +12/+7/+2
Level 18: +13/+8/+3
Level 19: +14/+9/+4
Level 20: +15/+10/+5

SAVING THROWS
Level 1: +0 to all
Level 2: +0 to all
Level 3: +1 to all
Level 4: +1 to all
Level 5: +1 to all
Level 6: +2 to all
Level 7: +2 to all
Level 8: +2 to all
Level 9: +3 to all
Level 10: +3 to all
Level 11: +3 to all
Level 12: +4 to all
Level 13: +4 to all
Level 14: +4 to all
Level 15: +5 to all
Level 16: +5 to all
Level 17: +5 to all
Level 18: +6 to all
Level 19: +6 to all
Level 20: +6 to all

SPECIAL
Level 1: Clockwork Summon, Fast Movement
Level 2: -
Level 3: +2 to Intelligence
Level 4: Craft Wondrous Item
Level 5: -
Level 6: +2 to Dexterity
Level 7: Craft Magic Arms and Armor
Level 8: -
Level 9: +2 to Wisdom
Level 10: Iron Will
Level 11: -
Level 12: +2 to Strength
Level 13: Phase Weapon
Level 14: -
Level 15: +2 to Charisma
Level 16: Craft Rod
Level 17: -
Level 18: +2 to Constitution
Level 19: Immunity to Energy, Vunerability to Energy
Level 20: Clockwork Savior

SPELLS PER DAY
As the standard sorcerer.

CLASS FEATURES
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Scholars are proficient with all exotic weapons.

Spells: A scholar casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the scholar spell list (see below). She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a scholar must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 +the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a scholar's spell is 10 +the spell level +the scholar's Intelligence modifier. Like other spellcasters, a scholar can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given in Table 3-16 of the "PHB". In addition, she recieves bonus spells per day if she has a high Intelligence score (see Table 1-1 of the "PHB").

Clockwork Summon: A scholar can obtain a Clockwork Servant. Doing so takes 1d20 days. If the Clockwork Servant dies or is dismissed by the scholar, she may gain a new one after another 1d20 days. The construct serves as assistant and bodyguard; though it is not equipped with any possessions, it will remain within 50 feet of the scholar at all times, and defend her with its natural attacks and programmed spells.

The scholar can communicate telepathically with the Clockwork Servant, and give it simple commands, such as "heal this character" or "attack that monster". It can also be keyed to perform specific tasks at specific times, or when certain conditions are met. It will not obey the commands of anyone except the scholar, nor will it move over 50 feet away from her, even if she tells it to do so.

At 1st to 5th level, the Clockwork Servant is a Scarab, with a 1d2 multitool. At 6th to 10th level, the Clockwork Servant is a Surgeon, with four 1d4 claws. At 11th to 15th level, the Clockwork Servant is a Soldier, with two 1d6 masterwork saps and two 1d3 masterwork whips. At 16th to 20th level, the Clockwork Servant is a Serpent, with a 2d8 slam and a 4d6 bite.

Fast Movement: A scholar's land speed is faster than the norm for her race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when she is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the scholar's speed because of any load carried or armor worn. For example, a halfling scholar has a speed of 30 feet, rather than 20 feet, when wearing light or no armor. When wearing medium armor or carrying a medium load, her speed drops to 20 feet.

Implant Bonuses: Starting at 3rd level, a scholar adds two points to a given ability score every three levels. For example, a scholar adds two points to her Intelligence score at 3rd level, two points to her Dexterity score at 6th level, and so on. This is in addition to ability points gained every fourth level, and ability points gained or lost with age.

Craft Wondrous Item: A scholar gains Craft Wondrous Item as a bonus feat at 4th level.

Craft Magic Arms and Armor: A scholar gains Craft Magic Arms and Armor as a bonus feat at 7th level.

Iron Will: A scholar gains Iron Will as a bonus feat at 10th level.

Phase Weapon: At 13th level, a scholar can attack with a ranged weapon once per day at a target known to her within range, and the attack passes through any nonmagical barrier or wall in its way. This ability negates cover, concealment, and even armor modifiers, but otherwise the attack is rolled normally. Using this ability is a standard action (and using the weapon is part of the action).

Craft Rod: A scholar gains Craft ROd as a bonus feat at 16th level.

Immunity to Energy: At 19th level, a scholar becomes immune to cold and sonic damage.

Vulnerability to Energy: At 19th level, a scholar becomes vulnerable to electricity damage, taking half again as much (+50%) damage as normal regardless of whether a saving throw is a allowed.

Clockwork Savior: At 20th level, the scholar permanently becomes a living construct. Her type changes to living construct, and as a result she gains immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, disease, nausea, fatigue, exhaustion, and energy drain. She does not need to eat, sleep, or breathe, but can still beneft from the effects of consumable spells and magic items such as heroes’ feast and potions, and must rest for 8 hours before preparing spells. She cannot heal damage naturally, but can be affected by spells that target living creatures as well as by those that target constructs, and she can be raised or resurrected. However, spells from the healing subschool provide only half effect to a living construct. She no longer suffers penalties for aging and cannot be magically aged. Any aging penalties she may already have suffered, however, remain in place. Bonuses still accrue, and the scholar still dies of old age when her time is up.

SPELL LIST
0th-Level: detect magic, detect poison, flare, know direction, touch of fatigue
1st-Level: alarm, cure light wounds, expeditious retreat, magic missile, remove fear, shield
2nd-Level: blindness/deafness, cure moderate wounds, darkvision, invisibility, locate object, obscure object, pyrotechnics, scorching ray
3rd-Level: clairvoyance, cure serious wounds, fireball, sleet storm, stinking cloud
4th-Level: arcane eye, detect scrying, greater invisibility, ice storm
5th-Level: cloudkill, mind fog, prying eyes, teleport
6th-Level: animate object, disintegrate, true seeing
7th-Level: control weather, mass invisibility, reverse gravity
8th-Level: clone, sunburst, temporal stasis
9th-Level: gate, meteor swarm, teleportation circle
Whadaya think? Any better?

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-06, 02:06 PM
No new opinions?

Tyndmyr
2009-09-06, 04:06 PM
Hmm...I see. One of my other friends said it looked UNDERpowered, strangely enough.:smallconfused:

It's quite powerful. Not the most powerful homebrew Ive ever seen, but well up there. D10 hit die on a caster is generally a bad sign. It's basically a sorcerer with a set spell progression(and not a bad one, power wise), with a pile of other good traits as well. Low on skill points, sure, but with int as a primary stat, thats not a big deal. Adding a permanent +2 to all skills is also very powerful.

It also has four bonus feats. Four quite good bonus feats.

It's a *very* powerful class. Much more so than most, if not all base classes. I would reccomend toning it down some unless the rest of your party is playing similarly powerful characters, and your DM is adjusting monsters accordingly.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-06, 04:09 PM
Given that in our last campaign we fought a great wyrm red dragon and the goddamn Tarrasque AT THE SAME TIME, I'd say that won't be too much of an issue.

We got the dragon to fight the Tarrasque to try and soften it up, and the dragon died without us actually fighting it but STILL!

Tyndmyr
2009-09-06, 05:28 PM
Powerful as enemies may be, that doesn't solve the problem of balance vs your party.

Is your party playing similarly invented classes, or are they staying with more standard D&D options?

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-06, 05:35 PM
I'm not sure. At the moment there are only two other people who are definately playing. We're currently looking for more people, but worst case scenario is just the three of us against the world.

Though, to be fair, one of them is trying to swing playing a janni. I'm not certain if he's going to use the monster class or just play a class with a +5 LA, but he wants to play some kind of elemental being and didn't want to play a genasi.

Arbitrarity
2009-09-06, 05:49 PM
It's quite powerful. Not the most powerful homebrew Ive ever seen, but well up there. D10 hit die on a caster is generally a bad sign. It's basically a sorcerer with a set spell progression(and not a bad one, power wise), with a pile of other good traits as well. Low on skill points, sure, but with int as a primary stat, thats not a big deal. Adding a permanent +2 to all skills is also very powerful.

It also has four bonus feats. Four quite good bonus feats.

It's a *very* powerful class. Much more so than most, if not all base classes. I would reccomend toning it down some unless the rest of your party is playing similarly powerful characters, and your DM is adjusting monsters accordingly.

Nah. The spell list is FAR too limited to be broken. That's not a full caster, that's... weak. Apart from Gate, it's nowhere near "good" or broken. Low skill points, horrible saves, and a few abilities easily duplicated with spells.

Battle Sorcerors are more powerful, really.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-06, 06:30 PM
Not really. It's a sorcerer equivalent. Leaving aside the fact that he can burn low level spells to heal, lets look at some of these.

4th-Level: arcane eye, detect scrying, greater invisibility, ice storm
5th-Level: cloudkill, mind fog, prying eyes, teleport
6th-Level: animate object, disintegrate, true seeing
7th-Level: control weather, mass invisibility, reverse gravity
8th-Level: clone, sunburst, temporal stasis
9th-Level: gate, meteor swarm, teleportation circle

I have difficulty saying that any of these are weak. Essentially, he's playing an int based sorcerer that gets a laundry list of other abilities and boosts. Int is superior to cha, because there are more/arguably better int skills than cha, and more to the point, you get skill points from int. As a bonus, with one feat, you can use your int modfier for will saves.

Yes, the saves are weak, but +2 to all stats will give him +1 to all saves(along with plenty of other things). He picks up Iron Will as a bonus feat, giving him another +2 to will. So, at level 18, he'll have +7/+7/+9 from his class. That's not actually that bad. Keep in mind that the much higher hp makes some saves(reflex mainly) less important.

He gets all the worthwhile craft feats for free. This is pretty potent in itself...sorcerers do not generally have a lot of feats to spare, so getting them would require some hefty tradeoffs. The construct savior basically negates most of the downsides to the low saves once you get there. Exotic weapon proficiency, faster land speed are more minor, but still handy. The arrow that ignores almost everything is quite powerful, but the 1x/day keeps it reasonable.

Basically, it looks like it has all the best parts from about three base classes. If his party is using standard D&D base classes, they'll be hard pressed to keep up.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-06, 06:40 PM
I'd say it is as balanced as the Sorc. Tier power wise.


Yes, he has good choices, but he can't use from the other list (like a Sorceror can).

No Fly, no Displacement, no Haste, no Grease, etc.
Just like the other listed list casters: Beguiler, Dread Necro, Warmage.

Toliudar
2009-09-06, 06:48 PM
I agree. I see nothing in either the fluff or apparent intent of the class to justify a d10 hit die.

I like the idea of a class focused around the creation and use of constructs, but very little in the class actually does that.

A few additional questions:

Where does the Clockwork summons come from? At the very least, make it something that the character has to invest some time and money into building?
Why the healing spells? The repair spells would seem much more thematically appropriate.
What does phase weapon have to do with building or maintaining constructs?

I really don't understand the point of this class. It seems to be trying to combine the artificer, sorcerer and an archery element, but in a progression that doesn't make much sense to me.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-06, 06:48 PM
In combat you are very limited in options ... you have decent BAB, but nothing to really use it with except for your scorching rays. Plinking away with a bow and arrow for diddly damage certainly won't do much good.

It's a poor man's sorcerer ... none of the class features stand out as very interesting and power wise none of them justify giving up access to the much better sorcerer spell list.

PS. well maybe the clockwork servants, but I can't gauge their power.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-06, 06:48 PM
So? A sorcerer is inherently limited to the spells he selected. How is this different from him playing a sorcerer and selecting these spells?

As for the higher BAB, yeah, it has uses. He's proficient in exotic weapons, and gets craft magic arms and armor for free. I guarantee I can think up half a dozen useful ways to use that.

Milskidasith
2009-09-06, 06:53 PM
You get good BAB, HD, weapon proficiencies, and more skill points.

Hell, although it can't buff itself, it's still about as good as a cleric in melee at low levels because it's construct companion, while not amazing, isn't half bad and the HD on this guy aren't bad.

It's not terirble without spells, and it's spell list isn't half bad. It works fine.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-06, 07:00 PM
As for the higher BAB, yeah, it has uses. He's proficient in exotic weapons, and gets craft magic arms and armor for free. I guarantee I can think up half a dozen useful ways to use that.
I can tell you one thing he should do ... stay the hell out of melee range, just like anything else which can't do real damage. Melee range is dangerous, it's for the barbarians, buffed clerics, psychic warriors and TWF rogues of this world. Not for 3/4 BAB classes who happen to have a decent weapon.

You won't do significantly more damage than with ranged weapons (which in turn will do significantly less damage than simply using your blasting spells) and you will put yourself in significantly more risk.

Milskidasith
2009-09-06, 07:02 PM
I can tell you one thing he should do ... stay the hell out of melee range, just like anything else which can't do real damage. Melee range is dangerous, it's for the barbarians, buffed clerics, psychic warriors and TWF rogues of this world. Not for 3/4 BAB classes who happen to have a decent weapon.

He's still good from ranged, and there are some good exotic ranged weapons.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-06, 07:07 PM
So? A sorcerer is inherently limited to the spells he selected. How is this different from him playing a sorcerer and selecting these spells?
He is strictly better than a blaster sorcerer no doubt ... he is just pigeonholed a bit into playing one.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-06, 09:02 PM
Nah, he only took about one blaster spell per level. Things like Greater Invisibility, Clone, True Seeing, Teleport, Gate, etc are not particularily blaster specific, they're great/required for most casters.

Given the list of free item creation feats, he can essentially circumvent any meaningful restriction on spells in that way.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-06, 09:32 PM
I agree. I see nothing in either the fluff or apparent intent of the class to justify a d10 hit die.

I like the idea of a class focused around the creation and use of constructs, but very little in the class actually does that.
Well, actually it's more about the repurposing of lost technology for your own use.


A few additional questions:

Where does the Clockwork summons come from? At the very least, make it something that the character has to invest some time and money into building?
I'll need to ask my DM this. From my understanding it's supposed to be like the ranger's animal companion.

Why the healing spells? The repair spells would seem much more thematically appropriate.
Because my DM doesn't have the book the repair spells are in.

What does phase weapon have to do with building or maintaining constructs?
It doesn't. It's so the character can be effective with firearms, which they are automatically proficient with. Again, not just about constructs, but also with all kinds of lost technologies, including weapons.

I really don't understand the point of this class. It seems to be trying to combine the artificer, sorcerer and an archery element, but in a progression that doesn't make much sense to me.
Again, not an archery element. A gun element.

Teron
2009-09-06, 09:33 PM
Given that in our last campaign we fought a great wyrm red dragon and the goddamn Tarrasque AT THE SAME TIME, I'd say that won't be too much of an issue.

We got the dragon to fight the Tarrasque to try and soften it up, and the dragon died without us actually fighting it but STILL!
I have to ask: how does a flying, spellcasting supergenius get killed by an overgrown turtle?

Kylarra
2009-09-06, 09:35 PM
Repair spells are exactly like their cure counterparts except they only affect constructs and living constructs.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-06, 09:41 PM
I have to ask: how does a flying, spellcasting supergenius get killed by an overgrown turtle?

The Tarrasque has immunity to fire. That takes the breath weapon out of the picture. Big handicap there, since the Tarrasque is clearly superior in claw to claw fighting.

Also, our red dragon was represented by a Beanie Baby, while our tarrasque was the goddamn rancor monster!

Andras
2009-09-07, 01:20 AM
Let's see, starting with the class as described in the OP.

Strong:

-d10 HD (for a full caster? Wow. Rangers/Monks are crying themselves to sleep even harder. The +2 Con doesn't exactly help either.)
-3/4 BAB
-Full caster with a pump to primary casting skill at level 3 for free
-Fast movement with full casting (because casting defensively is for suckers!)
-Spontaneous casting from entire list
-SAD
-All Exotic weapons (pretty nifty for a dip)

Weak:

-Spell list is extremely restrictive (but not awful). Loses the normal win-button silliness, but still has really useful stuff. So not really that much of a huge disadvantage.
-No good saves (free Iron Will/ability boosts helps, but it still sucks badly)
-Construct type makes your heals inoperable on yourself. Ouch. Also, so much for the Con boost 2 levels before.

The class seems like it's really trying to be too many things, and representing too many things with mechanics that are dissimilar. I'll agree with Kylarra that it sounds pretty Mary Sue (and would rise exponentially in Sue-ness if the character was also the last human, but I digress). Unfortunately, I have no idea what kind of role this class is even supposed to be in. I mean, d10 HD, no armor, stat boosts all around, and full casting is just confusing. Additionally, the class features are just...not interesting. Stat boosts are uninspired.

If I had to make some suggestions on-the-fly:

-Tone down to d6 or d8 HD, add some tiny amount of DR/Adamantine, NA, or Hardness like a warlock's/DFA's for the durable feel the creator was going for.
-Give at least one good save. I suggest Fort.
-Take out the stat boosts, replace them with more interesting bonuses. Maybe something like the Dread Necro's becoming-more-undead bonuses.
-Add repair spells to list.

But, since this is the premise:

The class is apparently supposed to be similar to a ranger, in that they fight with a ranged weapon (they are automatically proficient with guns and other modern weaponry, though the world's current level of technology only has muskets, or more advanced firearms that may be found buried), and they have a companion that helps them fight, with some spells to mix it up.


In that case, I suggest just modding the ranger as opposed to going through all this. Change the naturey stuff to archaeology stuff, make the animal companion a construct animal, change the spell list, maybe up the spells to Duskblade/Bard proportions (6th level max, etc.), and you're cookin' with gas.

Kylarra
2009-09-07, 01:25 AM
Well the base stats are modeled from Construct RHD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#constructType).

Andras
2009-09-07, 01:36 AM
Well the base stats are modeled from Construct RHD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/typesSubtypes.htm#constructType).

This may have been the intention, but the implementation left something to be desired.

Kylarra
2009-09-07, 01:40 AM
This may have been the intention, but the implementation left something to be desired.
I agree that the implementation is poor (as can be referenced by my first post which you also referenced... XD), I'm just referencing where they came from for everyone else reading the thread.

I think that's enough referencing for one post.

Andras
2009-09-07, 01:44 AM
The thing is, the class doesn't gain a lot of the nifty stuff that constructs often have (Fort save immunity, NA, hardness, etc.), but instead gains casting. This is like trading apples for oranges. It's pretty hard to measure as-is.

Kylarra
2009-09-07, 01:49 AM
The thing is, the class doesn't gain a lot of the nifty stuff that constructs often have (Fort save immunity, NA, hardness, etc.), but instead gains casting. This is like trading apples for oranges. It's pretty hard to measure as-is.Well the capstone does let it be a warforged. >_>

warrl
2009-09-07, 03:35 AM
I don't have the latter book, and it's more for my DM to approve.
And something you made from scratch isn't?
Actually, according to the first post in the thread, it's something the DM made from scratch. So DM approval doesn't look like an issue.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-07, 08:30 AM
-Construct type makes your heals inoperable on yourself. Ouch. Also, so much for the Con boost 2 levels before.

It's actually halved healing. I'll grant you that a halved clw as level 20 isn't going to be terribly significant, though.

I agree with the other posters that the basic problem seems to be trying to do too much. It's got a bunch of nifty features that are appropriate to a given class or archtype....but the basic problem is, no balanced character can be good at everything, and a character that's kinda bad at everything isn't usually much fun to play. If ranged damage is your thing, perhaps start with ranger, dump preferred enemy, and substitute in other interesting things instead.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-07, 08:49 AM
Nah, he only took about one blaster spell per level.
That's not my point, the utility spells are nice but those are not really offensive ... he almost completely lacks battlefield control and weak save targeting spells (apart from Sleet Storm, Stinking cloud and mind fog, the latter of which will be a waste to cast unless there is some other caster which can target will saves).

In combat he is a blaster.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-07, 09:04 AM
Cloudkill? Granted, it has hit die limitations, but it's a great way to dispose of all the mooks and smack the leader around some.

In combat, he's ranged/blaster, with a few other nifty options. Until he hits the capstone of course. Then he can likely get away with whatever he wants, including front lining.

Wonder what race he's going to play?

Kylarra
2009-09-07, 10:27 AM
Cloudkill? Granted, it has hit die limitations, but it's a great way to dispose of all the mooks and smack the leader around some.

In combat, he's ranged/blaster, with a few other nifty options. Until he hits the capstone of course. Then he can likely get away with whatever he wants, including front lining.

Wonder what race he's going to play?
He's playing [the last] human in the plane.

I managed to swing playing as a human (they're extinct in the setting) by being a human that was catapaulted into the future via a time-travel experiment.


I think the other issue I've got is that he's supposed to have an NPC class level at first, which means that he's not even going to get his warforged capstone.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-07, 11:12 AM
Yeah...that's just messy.

Base classes don't have prereqs to get in, PrCs do. Keep them neat and seperate. The level of NPC is just annoying and awkward.

Sharkman1231
2009-09-07, 11:42 AM
Some people were talking about how this class' HD is really high. I had an idea that might be good. So instead of having a d10 HD to start, he has a d4 like other squishy classes. Then after a few levels his HD increases to a d6 (cuz he is becoming more construct-y)then later it goes up to a d8 then once the guy reaches 20th lvl, like a lich, you reroll all the HD. Or HD goes up 4,5,6,7,8,9,10 instead of 4,6,8,10
Just an idea... :smallsmile:

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-07, 12:28 PM
He's playing [the last] human in the plane.
In the literature about the campaign my DM has given me, these are the only available races are halflings, changelings, feytouched, planetouched, goblins, hobgoblins and kobolds. Any of the races that aren't small have a level adjustment, and I'd rather keep things simple.

I think the other issue I've got is that he's supposed to have an NPC class level at first, which means that he's not even going to get his warforged capstone.
According to the DM, the reason for this is because in this post-post-apocalyptic world, the guilds that trained people in the PC classes have fallen apart, and as a result adventurers are very rare. In order to become an adventurer, you have to get a member of the class you want to train you over the course of at least a year. Certain classes, like paladins and wizards, have it even harder since you can count them on the fingers of a single hand.

Kylarra
2009-09-07, 12:36 PM
According to the DM, the reason for this is because in this post-post-apocalyptic world, the guilds that trained people in the PC classes have fallen apart, and as a result adventurers are very rare. In order to become an adventurer, you have to get a member of the class you want to train you over the course of at least a year. Certain classes, like paladins and wizards, have it even harder since you can count them on the fingers of a single hand.Seems like a pointless LA to me, better to just arbitrarily enforce more time to the starting age.

Milskidasith
2009-09-07, 12:40 PM
Or just give it a LA, not a class level in something worthless.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-07, 12:47 PM
The point is to show that this is an age where heroes are very rare and that they can't be trained a dime-a-dozen like they used to.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-07, 12:51 PM
IMO, in a world that's essentially shattered....just surviving is a struggle. A level of an adventuring class makes a heck of a lot more sense than a level in commoner or merchant or something.

Kylarra
2009-09-07, 12:53 PM
Yes I remember the grimdark nature of your campaign setting.

Still, it makes more sense to just require it to take more of the age category as a fluff reason than to arbitrarily gimp casters, and everyone not playing a favored class for multiclassing.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-07, 12:56 PM
He doesn't bother with favored classes or with EXP even. We just level up at the end of each session provided we haven't died and been raised, in which case we just don't level up that session instead of taking a negative level.

Kylarra
2009-09-07, 12:58 PM
Well like I said, it still makes more sense for you to have just spent more of your time training to trade your humanoid level in for a class level, than to think that you decided to go do something else before investing time in your particular class.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-07, 01:06 PM
Hmm...maybe I could swing starting as a level 1 adventurer, since I'm not from that time period and thus it's more a matter of finding a different means of applying his scientific knowledge than it is starting from humble beginnings and becoming a hero.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-08, 05:09 PM
Well, my DM's written me back about the proposed changes. Here's what he said:

Like the new barter econonmy and super-limited magic, the NPC levels
are meant to help establish setting, mood, and characterization in the
first couple of games...and to shock some of our players out of their
"how can I get the perfect min-max build by 20th level" mentality.
(We know who we are.) I've played in campaigns where players started
off as NPC classes and worked their way up; the basic idea works.

****ty saves and d10 HD are based on those for a construct; it seemed
easiest, given the concept. But if you're absolutely begging to have
fewer hit points in your inevitable battle against the Dire Demi-lich
Half-Dragon Cybertarrasque...I don't see any reason why we can't scale
down to a d6. Eric, what do you think?

I'm keeping the stat boosts as is, since those are the main feature of
PCs who have been turned into Clockwork Speakers...and the Scholar is
essentially a Speaker who doesn't need a Surgeon. Unsurprisingly, D&D
doesn't have much to build on for an "assimilated by the Borg"
concept; I had to scavenge bits from the "Monster Manuals" and "Book
of Vile Darkness" to come up with anything remotely similar to what I
had in mind. It's not ideal, but it's the best I could do at the
time, and I'm none too keen on ret-conning it now.

I know I approved the "repair" spells for use in "Thule"; the only
question is whether the Clockwork Servants would have had them (and
therefore, whether the Scholars have them now). I based their spell
lists on the "PHB", which unfortunately doesn't have "repair": if
there's a Servant with wiggle room for an extra programmed spell or
two, it stands to reason that a Clockwork Scholar would know that
spell also. I'll get back to you.

Kylarra
2009-09-08, 05:24 PM
I find it absolutely hilarious how he says that while writing a capstone for the class. Really I do.

Anyway, do whatever. It's probably a tad overpowered, but if that's the way he wants to write it, go for it.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-08, 07:58 PM
It looks like your DM has a very specific vision for this class, and isn't terribly keen on changing it. Not a lot to be done about it in that case, I guess.

The point of a level 20 capstone you never reach is beyond me, though.

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-08, 09:14 PM
That's my concern as well. Though in the last campaign, I never made it to level 20 anyway.

Milskidasith
2009-09-08, 09:23 PM
I still can't see the point in starting off with an NPC level. I mean, yes, you have to "work your way up." But at level 1, you can be killed by a kitten getting a suprise round on you; you aren't exactly high on the totem pole. And all taking a level of an NPC class does is delay the game while giving you such minimal bonuses you might as well not even bother changing the monsters you would use based on the characters real levels.

Kylarra
2009-09-08, 09:29 PM
If he's using fractional BAB, take expert, otherwise I guess take warrior if you want to be marginally good in weapon fighting.

I guess Adept's Protection from <alignment> couldn't hurt either, 2/day assuming wis 12. .

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-08, 09:52 PM
I think I could swing doing an adept, since the nanotechnology he helped develop is what later became magic.

Kylarra
2009-09-09, 12:25 AM
I guess alternatively you could just say," Dude, I'm just gonna take 20 levels in your stupid scholar class. Can I do that?"

Archpaladin Zousha
2009-09-09, 08:03 AM
Here's his reply to that:


To be fair, nobody in the last campaign reached Level 20 even without the adjustment. And there are established rules (however cumbersome) for Level 21+ characters. It is, I think, something not to zook out over.

Here, perhaps this will help:
http://www.gunnerkrigg.com/archive_page.php?comicID=604