PDA

View Full Version : {uncool} Move?



Gamgee
2009-09-03, 10:06 PM
Here is the situation my cousin is a 12 year old kid, but he could pass for a young high schooler he is so big. Although he still has that child like quality and you can tell he is still just a kid.

So anyways all goes well for tonight's session up until the end. Then my cousin gloriously and in character backstabs the other two in the party so that the Mandalorians could take over coruscant instead of the republic retaking it. Suffice to say the two good guys who put a lot of effort into saving the planet and get the win semi-stolen. My cousin never killed them or even stated that he would do anything beyond claiming the planet in the name of Mandalore.

Now the session ends and friend A is incredibly pissed off 19 year old. He was going to jokingly sort of hit my cousin on the head lightly in an "Oh you ass Ill get you back way". Instead though his little irritation slap turns into a full on backhand to the temple for this kid who is much younger and smaller than him. Worse is the kid completely trusted this guy before this.

So my cousin is hurt and crying, and I react defensively and tell them the session is over and a few other un-pleasantries directed at friend A. In the end I concluded that it was most likely just an accident and said if he apologized he could stay in the session. I also warn him that if my cousins dad had seen that friend A would probably not be in one piece. So then I wait for him to apologize and he doesn't really. I was getting rushed by someone out of the room and had to wrap the session up. Friend A takes off very fast without an apology (although I may have simply not caught it, bit my cousin didn't catch it either.)

Friend B is his only ride home and he walks away with friend A and gives me a "WTF Just happened bro?" look and drives friend A home. He had no part other than a spectator watching the thing go down and I feel sorry his night had to be ruined... ish.

So despite what I said to friend A I still told my cousins parents as it was the right thing to do. If your son just got hit in the head by someone much older you would want to know right? So they stay calm, but pissed off and want to talk to friend A in the morning.

Outside knowledge friend A was not aware of or only vaguely aware of: My cousin has some problem with his brain where he gets headaches more frequently and seriously. Getting hit to the head can be dangerous for him as it hurts and it makes whatever his head condition flair up and he can sometimes double over in pain.
______________________________
Questions? Comments? Did I do the right thing? I personally don't think friend A meant for that to happen, but yet he still chose to actually hit my cousin in the first place. I'm also pretty sure friend A is not coming back to the session because of this. Mainly because his parents don't want him around their kid, and well... it sort of feels like a betrayal he did something so stupid.

Also friend A was threatening to strangle my cousin in real life... this was before the hitting incident. I thought it was in a joking manner, but now it seems rather serious.

Elfin
2009-09-03, 10:12 PM
You did the right thing.
Don't invite Friend A back to your game, because it seems you can't trust him. You have no idea what he could do if a situation escalates, and you need to keep your cousin safe.

Thurbane
2009-09-03, 10:14 PM
Physical violence at a game is never good. There was a really nasty incident at my game years ago that resulted in one guy and his girlfriend never gaming with us again.

I would give the guy a chance to apologise and explain himself, though. Maybe the hit just landed harder than he intended. Still, leaving without clearly apologising was pretty lame.

Short answer - if the guy is a good enough friend, give him a chance to apologise and make it right. Also, if he does this, make sure your cousin is OK with him still being in the group before you invite him back.

Lycan 01
2009-09-03, 10:14 PM
WHO HITS A CHILD!?!? :smallfurious:

Seriously! A 19 year old is gonna backhand a 12 year old over A GAME?! Something is WRONG here! I wouldn't have cared if it was an accident or not, if one of my friends touched a little cousin of mine in any sort of harmful manner, they'd be thrown out of the house and probably lose my friendship in a rather fast manner! :smallmad:


He was VERY WRONG to do that, and you were QUITE right to tell your Aunt and Uncle what happened. I'm sorry that your cousin's night had to be ruined like that... :smallfrown:



(Give him some extra XP to cheer him up. :smallwink:)

Gamgee
2009-09-03, 10:17 PM
Physical violence at a game is never good. There was a really nasty incident at my game years ago that resulted in one guy and his girlfriend never gaming with us again.

I would give the guy a chance to apologise and explain himself, though. Maybe the hit just landed harder than he intended. Still, leaving without clearly apologising was pretty lame.

Short answer - if the guy is a good enough friend, give him a chance to apologise and make it right. Also, if he does this, make sure your cousin is OK with him still being in the group before you invite him back.

He has been an... okay-good friend so far. Also he did try and explain he didn't mean to hit him that hard and he didn't mean for it to hurt. Though... still no apology. Not to mention he still considered it and did it. Just want to get the facts straight here.

Edit
I think my cousins feelings are hurt more than he is physically right now. He considered the guy a good friend, and he does have few friends for someone his age who should have many.

Froogleyboy
2009-09-03, 10:19 PM
I would have tossed the 19 year old in the air and shot him like skeet if he hit my cousin. Don't invite him back.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-03, 10:19 PM
If he explains, but does not apologies, he does not consider himself in the wrong.

Says something.

Personally, I'd tell his parents that he a) hit a 12 year old with excessive force and b) that said 12 year old has brain damage. Sit back and enjoy the fireworks.

It'd probably be bad for him if the story got around his school.

Oh, and put him on the emailing list for stuff like Home Improvement and Better Houses and Gardens. Such is the pain that comes from reading such magazines...

Elfin
2009-09-03, 10:19 PM
That's not very good. He hasn't actually apologized for hitting your cousin, just said he "didn't mean to hit so hard". This implies that he still sees nothing wrong with it.
Really, don't invite this guy again.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-09-03, 10:22 PM
I tend to agree that Friend A and the cousin should probably not be placed together again, especially if the cousin is uncomfortable with him now. Granted, you may have missed his apology, but better safe than sorry. If you still want him as a friend/gamer, I'd suggest doing it in a different group, if possible.

Lycan 01
2009-09-03, 10:24 PM
He was wrong to even try to jokingly hit him. You shouldn't strike a child, even playfully. It could be taken the wrong way, or (as happened) be more painfull than intended.

I don't think you should spread rumors that he's a child abuser, though. :smallconfused: Just be sure to make it clear that you're upset over the matter, and he was not in the right in ANY way.




Btw... Hi Gamgee! :smallbiggrin: Didn't realize it was you when I first posted... You ARE the same Gamgee from the Bethesda forums, right? :smalleek:

Gamgee
2009-09-03, 10:25 PM
I tend to agree that Friend A and the cousin should probably not be placed together again, especially if the cousin is uncomfortable with him now. Granted, you may have missed his apology, but better safe than sorry. If you still want him as a friend/gamer, I'd suggest doing it in a different group, if possible.

Due to me having no car or access to one it is quite impossible to host games anywhere other than my house. Also due to living arrangements my cousin is around our house 75% of the time. It would be most impossible to have the guy in a game again and him not be around my cousin.

Sad thing? My little cousin was willing and wanted to forgive him for being an idiot. I couldn't let that happen.

Edit
Yea its me from the BGSF. Can't say or complain I never had an interesting day let alone life.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-03, 10:26 PM
I don't think you should spread rumors that he's a child abuser, though. :smallconfused:

If the school gossip mill takes the story and runs with it, is it really your fault? :smallwink:

Gamgee
2009-09-03, 10:28 PM
I'm in college, and this friend A is going into College for the first time. It is unlikely many know him. I also wouldn't stoop as low as him let alone lower and spread rumors. I think I made that clear by trying to get both sides of the story in my posts. If I was merely looking for sympathy I would have made it more biased. ;)

Edit
Then again rumors are like wild fires.... and if someone else spreads them there will be nothing I can do but try clarify what happened to the uninformed.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-03, 10:30 PM
Alright, just giving you options.

(I personally have an instinctive dislike of anything that smacks of fair fighting.)

Lycan 01
2009-09-03, 10:31 PM
If the school gossip mill takes the story and runs with it, is it really your fault?

If you started the gossip, YES. :smallbiggrin:


Hm. Okay, lets think clearly on this. Maybe you should have a heart-to-heart with Friend A. Tell him the truth - you are upset with him, you cousin has pre-existing condition that he could have affected, and he was wrong. But your cousin is also willing to forgive him, but you want him to apologize first. If he does not apologize for what he did, and show real remorse... then there will be unavoidable problems. :smallfrown:

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-03, 10:33 PM
Also, he must submit to the Trial of Death, with flying blue monkeys and everything.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-09-03, 10:35 PM
Alright, just giving you options.

(I personally have an instinctive dislike of anything that smacks of fair fighting.)

A man after my own heart.
...Is it weird that you sound like Sean Connery from celebrity jeopardy in my head, Pharaoh?

And Gamgee, situations like this really suck. If you can talk to this guy outside of your home, you should, and see how he and your cousin react to it over the course of a week or so. Ultimately the best judgment is yours, so do what you think is right.

Thurbane
2009-09-03, 10:37 PM
Sad thing? My little cousin was willing and wanted to forgive him for being an idiot. I couldn't let that happen.
That being the case, I would take the friend aside and explain the situation. If he accepts that he was wrong, and makes a sincere apology, I would be inclined to give him a 2nd chance. We all make stupid mistakes sometimes, and don't always realize the severity of what we've done until it is pointed out.

People usually deserve a 2nd chance - I know I've made plenty of stupid mistakes that I've been very glad people people gave me another chance for. You know the situation better than any of us do, so you have to do what you believe is right...

BizzaroStormy
2009-09-03, 10:38 PM
A playful whack every now and then is fine IMHO but the excess of force is not. Ruining the Friend A's reputation over a minor incident like this would be overkill so spreading rumors is definitely not a good idea.

In the unlikely event that the 12 year-old's parents do allow him and Friend A to play in the same group again, you could try letting him know beforehand that if he pulls anything like that again...well, I'll let you decide what to add.

For now, it sounds like he just needs a timeout of sorts. Let him sit out of your games for a month then have him apologize directly.

Gamgee
2009-09-03, 10:39 PM
If you started the gossip, YES. :smallbiggrin:


Hm. Okay, lets think clearly on this. Maybe you should have a heart-to-heart with Friend A. Tell him the truth - you are upset with him, you cousin has pre-existing condition that he could have affected, and he was wrong. But your cousin is also willing to forgive him, but you want him to apologize first. If he does not apologize for what he did, and show real remorse... then there will be unavoidable problems. :smallfrown:

Even if I do this my cousins parents still have the final say if they want him to hang around my cousin any more. So I can try and set things straight, but it really isn't up to me past a certain point. Not to mention if it boils down they don't want him around my cousin than friend a is going to have to hit the road. I care about family much more in this case, and my cousin is a good player. He has almost never missed a game, usually helps the team, and is a decent roleplayer.

Lycan 01
2009-09-03, 10:43 PM
Well, also look at it this way. If he kicks friend A to the curb without giving him a chance, then what's he going to tell his cousin? "Oh, I'm never letting friend A play again because he hit you?" You also have to consider that some kids have a pretty strong sense of guilt. If his cousin finds out friend A is banned from playing with them over a situation that he originally started, then he may feel responsible for the whole thing... This might already be the case since he wants friend A to come back and play again. He might feel bad for upsetting friend A to the point that the whole situation even happened. Shoot, I know people MY age who have a sense of guilt like that, so its very possible he could end up feeling that way.


Oh well. As I've said before, just try to talk it out. If need be, have friend A directly speak with your cousin's parents. Have him apologize to them, after he's apologized to your cousin first, of course. They will have the final say on the matter, but it'd be an easier say if they directly saw how he felt... Be it for better, or worse.

Gamgee
2009-09-03, 10:44 PM
Nothing I can do now. My cousins parents are going to definitely talk to my friend tomorrow. Nothing else to comment on at this time, but Ill try let other know how it turns out. Probably take a little while to resolve.

Scarlet Tropix
2009-09-03, 10:47 PM
I hope it turns out well for you, Gamgee.

Lycan 01
2009-09-03, 10:48 PM
Hm. Well, for what it's worth, good luck in resolving the whole thing...



On a lighter note, maybe you can brighten the mood by giving your cousin bonus XP for breaking a player. :smalltongue: Extra points if they were a Jedi...

valadil
2009-09-03, 10:50 PM
Unacceptable. It doesn't matter that the kid is your cousin or that he's younger. Physical violence is inappropriate at game. Taking in game events personally is also inappropriate. If player A can't handle that, he shouldn't be playing. Give him another chance to apologize and kick him out of the game if he won't.

Optimystik
2009-09-03, 10:57 PM
Physical violence at a game is never good.

I was surprised nobody mentioned this yet... (http://www.sltrib.com/justice/ci_13146563)

Grumman
2009-09-03, 11:06 PM
Going back a bit...

Allowing PvP in any circumstances where the defending player hasn't done something to deserve it is a really bad idea. Player A should not have hit your cousin, but the campaign was screwed anyway.

FlawedParadigm
2009-09-03, 11:08 PM
I was surprised nobody mentioned this yet... (http://www.sltrib.com/justice/ci_13146563)

I was considering it, but then I was worried someone might actually take me seriously for once. Which is probably never a good idea, but I don't recall things not being a good idea often stopping people from trying them. Skydiving, for example.

Lycan 01
2009-09-03, 11:09 PM
From what I gathered, there was no direct PvP. Nobody died, and his cousin had no intention of actually attacking the other players. He'd just decided to switch sides, and the other players didn't take too kindly to it...

Elfin
2009-09-03, 11:19 PM
I hope it turns out well for you, Gamgee.

I second this.

Grumman
2009-09-03, 11:35 PM
From what I gathered, there was no direct PvP. Nobody died, and his cousin had no intention of actually attacking the other players. He'd just decided to switch sides, and the other players didn't take too kindly to it...
You might be right, I read it as a non-lethal but direct PvP. But even if it wasn't, he just handed their capital city over to the enemy. Keeping him in the party after just performed a Backstab Murphy for such a major campaign objective is going to cause resentment, in and out of character.

Thajocoth
2009-09-03, 11:39 PM
That's horrible. If I were the DM, I would've referred to "Friend" A as Player A, or Ex-Friend A. Evin if your cousin was 19 and didn't have that headache condition, it would STILL be a drop-worthy act. (That is, dropping the guy from the game and your life.) I'd honestly advise that his parents sue the guy.

Violent people aren't completely sane. Some violent people suppress it and appear sane, but if it's there, it can and will be triggered eventually. I'm not saying he's gonna go postal... The worst he might ever do is throw a few punches... But it's impossible to tell how deep it runs. You're best off avoiding all contact with him.

You DEFINITELY did the right thing by kicking the guy out and especially by telling the kid's parents what occurred.

Kylarra
2009-09-03, 11:40 PM
Sad thing? My little cousin was willing and wanted to forgive him for being an idiot. I couldn't let that happen.:/

Really? I'd think such behavior should be applauded, not shot down like it's something unwanted.

Obligatory stance statement: What friend A did was inexcusable and bad.

Now with that said, I would think that the ability to forgive something that might've been done in the heat of anger and lack of apology can be explained by being both a) angry at the way the game turned out and b) being on the defensive after being verbally assaulted by you and c) shock/surprise at actually hitting someone that hard. Now I'm not in any way, shape or form, excusing his behavior, but I know at my own table, there's a fair amount of [friendly] arm-punching and mock dope-slappng and whatnot as a result of jerk actions.

Now, there's some bg that we don't know, like what sort of campaign were they doing etc, but in some groups, not necessarily saying that this is applicable here, there's a "gentleman's agreement" to not backstab the party in major ways, and shafting them completely out of a victory they earned, certainly qualifies as jerk-ass behavior, in character or no.

Zeful
2009-09-03, 11:43 PM
Personally, I'd get your Uncle/Aunt to press charges. It's an open and shut case really, it will go to trial, he will be found guilty etc. etc. He really has no excuse for his behavior.

Gamgee
2009-09-03, 11:54 PM
:/

Really? I'd think such behavior should be applauded, not shot down like it's something unwanted.

Obligatory stance statement: What friend A did was inexcusable and bad.

Now with that said, I would think that the ability to forgive something that might've been done in the heat of anger and lack of apology can be explained by being both a) angry at the way the game turned out and b) being on the defensive after being verbally assaulted by you and c) shock/surprise at actually hitting someone that hard. Now I'm not in any way, shape or form, excusing his behavior, but I know at my own table, there's a fair amount of [friendly] arm-punching and mock dope-slappng and whatnot as a result of jerk actions.

Now, there's some bg that we don't know, like what sort of campaign were they doing etc, but in some groups, not necessarily saying that this is applicable here, there's a "gentleman's agreement" to not backstab the party in major ways, and shafting them completely out of a victory they earned, certainly qualifies as jerk-ass behavior, in character or no.
Sad as in that's so noble sad that you want to try make amends. Not sad as in that's pathetic...

Kylarra
2009-09-04, 12:02 AM
stop making me waste my soapboxes, I'm running out of them. :smallsigh:

Grumman
2009-09-04, 12:19 AM
Personally, I'd get your Uncle/Aunt to press charges. It's an open and shut case really, it will go to trial, he will be found guilty etc. etc. He really has no excuse for his behavior.
To what end? Doing so would achieve nothing of benefit.

Zeful
2009-09-04, 12:43 AM
To what end? Doing so would achieve nothing of benefit.

Really? The fact that being taken to task for one's actions will not serve to point out how poorly he behaved and that he is obviously in the wrong? You seem to have less faith in the perpetrator than I do.

Assault over a game is simply wrong and immature no matter what happened in the game. The man's 19, he assaulted a 12-year-old, at this point being nice to him is coddling him.

BobVosh
2009-09-04, 01:15 AM
Modern American statutes define assault as:

1. an attempt to cause or purposely, knowingly, or recklessly causing bodily injury to another; or,
2. negligently causing bodily injury to another with a deadly weapon.

More negligently then purposely, knowingly, or recklessly. He isn't a deadly weapon. So not really assault. Now it will definitely qualify for battery.


Any the guy struck a kid for being annoying. If it wasn't in the head this would be fine imo, a smack on the shoulder is a perfectly acceptable way to treat a youngling that probably acts as a brother. Hitting the head was stupid, using excessive force was even more retarded, and the temple is quite possibly the pinnacle of stupidity in this act.

You definitely did the right thing by telling the parents. I would say give him a second chance if he apologizes to both the parents and the cousin, and agrees to never hit him again.

(by smack I mean a slap or very light punch...I hope you all have brothers and understand this...or possibly sisters, I didn't have one so I don't know)

kc0bbq
2009-09-04, 01:16 AM
Really? The fact that being taken to task for one's actions will not serve to point out how poorly he behaved and that he is obviously in the wrong? You seem to have less faith in the perpetrator than I do.

Assault over a game is simply wrong and immature no matter what happened in the game. The man's 19, he assaulted a 12-year-old, at this point being nice to him is coddling him.

overreact much? This entire thread is one giant overreaction.

Zeful
2009-09-04, 01:34 AM
overreact much? This entire thread is one giant overreaction.

Question: If a complete stranger attacked your child, would you not want to press charges? What's the difference between a stranger attacking a child, and what happened in the OP?

Me "overreacting" would be to, as my dad puts it, take everything from him and his parents for this: house, car, kids, everything. As it is, I consider pressing charges to be an appropriate escalation of events.

Oh and Bob: The victim is twelve, making it either Assault of a Minor or Reckless Endangerment of a Minor, either way it'd be a big deal.

Eloel
2009-09-04, 01:55 AM
overreact much? This entire thread is one giant overreaction.

This, pretty much. Mistakes happen, and if every mistake was worthy of a case, you'd have the courts full all the time.

He didn't know of your cousin's injury. He didn't mean to hurt him much, as someone put it, it sounds like it was some kind of a 'pat', similar to ones you do on your own brothers. He has overdone it, for which he had an explanation. The issue should be simple as an apology, and more caution on friendA's part.

FerhagoRosewood
2009-09-04, 02:09 AM
This reminds me of one of the times I was playing as my Swashbuckler who is a blatant rip off of Jack Sparrow. And my good friend, who was the DM, slapped me in real life during the gaming session.

I had to remind myself for a second that it was in game and that I shouldn't try to retaliate. My memory is a little fuzzy over why he did it, I think it was supposed to be a reference to Jack being slapped (which worked with my at-the-time long black hair) but yeah...

...Not sure why I typed that out but I look back on that and laugh... sorta.

>.>;

...Hope it turns out civil and well for you, buddy.

Ashes
2009-09-04, 02:22 AM
This, pretty much. Mistakes happen, and if every mistake was worthy of a case, you'd have the courts full all the time.

He didn't know of your cousin's injury. He didn't mean to hurt him much, as someone put it, it sounds like it was some kind of a 'pat', similar to ones you do on your own brothers. He has overdone it, for which he had an explanation. The issue should be simple as an apology, and more caution on friendA's part.

Indeed. Deal with it like civilized people. Pressing charges or suing would be the most retarded thing to do.

Kylarra
2009-09-04, 02:29 AM
I'd like to reiterate something that might've precluded some of this, which is one character shafting the rest of the party. In more mature groups, this can be done well, but this seems like it was done to the detriment of the enjoyment of other players, so, like I said before, it may not necessarily be applicable to this situation, but I think you should get some sort of talking done at the beginning of the game. If there's an implicit agreement that the party works together [generally], then such a thing should be followed and situations like this should not arise. (Note: this isn't to say that inter-party conflict shouldn't happen, but it shouldn't be on the scale of "oh that dragon we were planning on fighting? Yeah, I sold you guys out to it, because that's what my character would've done.", unless your party or campaign is specifically geared towards it, which it is pretty apparent from his reaction that you guys weren't).

Again, not defending the guy's actual reaction, but pointing out how it could've been avoided.

Thajocoth
2009-09-04, 02:39 AM
Assault over a game is simply wrong and immature no matter what happened in the game life.
Fixed


He didn't know of your cousin's injury. He didn't mean to hurt him much, as someone put it, it sounds like it was some kind of a 'pat', similar to ones you do on your own brothers. He has overdone it, for which he had an explanation. The issue should be simple as an apology, and more caution on friendA's part.
I don't see how what he did/did not know factors into it. He punched somebody. He did not try to explain or apologize for it. If he accidentally added force to a tap, he would've immediately upon contact been all "Oh, crap! I'm sorry! Are you alright?" Instead he was silent. He didn't even apologize when asked to. (Which, honestly, would've been an empty apology that late, but at least would've been recognition that what he did was wrong, which is at least a start.) The fact that he left completely without even the slightest hint of an apology is sociopathic behavior.

I honestly think he got mad and threw a punch. I've never felt a compulsion to punch/smash/hit/break/ect... anything before, so I don't know what that feels like... And if I ever do, I'll find myself a psychologist, because that's the appropriate response to that.

Grumman
2009-09-04, 02:39 AM
You seem to have less faith in the perpetrator than I do.
Er... no. I'm suggesting that he is capable of regretting his behaviour without throwing him to the lawyers.

Gamgee
2009-09-04, 02:40 AM
I'd like to reiterate something that might've precluded some of this, which is one character shafting the rest of the party. In more mature groups, this can be done well, but this seems like it was done to the detriment of the enjoyment of other players, so, like I said before, it may not necessarily be applicable to this situation, but I think you should get some sort of talking done at the beginning of the game. If there's an implicit agreement that the party works together [generally], then such a thing should be followed and situations like this should not arise. (Note: this isn't to say that inter-party conflict shouldn't happen, but it shouldn't be on the scale of "oh that dragon we were planning on fighting? Yeah, I sold you guys out to it, because that's what my character would've done.", unless your party or campaign is specifically geared towards it, which it is pretty apparent from his reaction that you guys weren't).

Again, not defending the guy's actual reaction, but pointing out how it could've been avoided.
Except it wasn't a total betrayal. They accomplished the same objective the only thing that changed was the Mandalorians owned the planet instead of the Republic. Nothing else... they even got a greater reward because he had pull with Mandalore himself. He was even like "hey we did it let's go party IC".

Also I find it funny people think this will turn into some retarded court case. I made it quite clear this isn't at that level. Or so I thought. Speaking to friend B he tells me friend A feels really bad about it. I expect an apology to my cousin tomorrow sometime. This being a recent development.

Edit
Also important to know HE DID apologies in a timid manner but me and my cousin didn't catch it. Friend B confirmed it and he is a neutral party in the matter.

Lord Herman
2009-09-04, 02:41 AM
overreact much? This entire thread is one giant overreaction.

I agree. From what I understand, the guy wanted to give him a friendly slap upside the head - you know, the kind that doesn't actually hurt - and he hit him harder than he intended. These things happen. And when everyone's suddenly mad at you, you don't always have the presence of mind to apologise.

Gamgee
2009-09-04, 02:43 AM
overreact much? This entire thread is one giant overreaction.

Without this overreaction we might not have all come to the conclusion it was an overreaction. It also isn't so much an overreaction as it is wanting to make sure the right thing gets done. Just because something is an overreaction doesn't mean it is horribly bad. Keep that in mind.

Kylarra
2009-09-04, 02:47 AM
Except it wasn't a total betrayal. They accomplished the same objective the only thing that changed was the Mandalorians owned the planet instead of the Republic. Nothing else... they even got a greater reward because he had pull with Mandalore himself. He was even like "hey we did it let's go party IC".
One could argue that having a different party control the planet than the one that you were supporting is indeed a big loss, regardless of other financial/political reimbursements. I guess from a mercenary viewpoint it doesn't matter, but...


Then my cousin gloriously and in character backstabs the other two in the party so that the Mandalorians could take over coruscant instead of the republic retaking it. Suffice to say the two good guys who put a lot of effort into saving the planet and get the win semi-stolen. My cousin never killed them or even stated that he would do anything beyond claiming the planet in the name of Mandalore.

Now the session ends and friend A is incredibly pissed off 19 year old.

Thajocoth
2009-09-04, 02:51 AM
Edit
Also important to know HE DID apologies in a timid manner but me and my cousin didn't catch it. Friend B confirmed it and he is a neutral party in the matter.

Ok, so he's not sociopath then. Consciously, he probably only meant a tap. Subconsciously, who knows? Also, technically, he could've had a spasm or his arm could've gotten a shock (though static shock is usually too weak to do that...) Or he could've misjudged the distance... Having apologized shortly after brings the other possible suggestions in.

IMO, the most likely are either distance misjudging or subconscious punch. Hopefully the former.

Drakefall
2009-09-04, 02:54 AM
Hmm, reading all these posts I can't help but feel a little sorry for all the flak Friend A is receiving. Let's try break the issue down and perhaps examine the mitigating factors here:

- Friend A hit your cousin over the back of the head after he did something which I guess can be considered slightly annoying in game. Indeed, that is unacceptable, but bear in mind that I at least would consider a light rap to the shoulder to be perfectly acceptable in such a "hey, you just backstabbed me, that's kinda annoying" way. In the heat of the moment though sometimes people can go overboard and he may have been particularly sore about being betrayed in the game. Still, that's no excuse to hit some in the head of all places, but human behaviour does happen. I personally blame all these silly glands we have.

- Your cousin has some condition which makes any kind of blow to the head be a particular danger to him. Friend A, however, did not know this so we can at least infer that he meant no serious damage.

- Your cousin is willing to forgive Friend A. Awesome, I think the world needs more paladin's and jedi and he receives my applause.

- Friend A has apologised in a timid fashion.

Now this raises a few pertinent questions:
-Does Friend A feel sincere remorse about what he did and wish to apologise?
-After learning of your cousin's condition (which I assume he has or eventually will) did/will he feel horribly guilty?
- Is this an isolated incident, or does Friend A often resort to such acts when frustrated?

If he indeed feels remorse, was sincere in his apology and does not make a habit of hitting people in general I believe it would be okay to allow him and your cousin to be friends again providing such an incident does not occur again. Sometimes in life you just make horrible mistakes that you feel terrible about for the rest of your life, I know I've made a few myself.

On the other hand, if such behaviour is a habit of his and/or he doesn't really appear sincere in any attempt he makes/has made to apologise, then I would have to agree that the pair should not interact again and you should perhaps stay away from him yourself.

Though in the end I suppose the decision is your cousin's parents to make. At any rate I hope this thing works out well enough in the end for you and as many people as possible.

elliott20
2009-09-04, 04:15 AM
I'm pretty sure that most of this has already been said but here's how I feel.

- Friend A said he didn't mean it. He hadn't apologized. But at least you know he wasn't trying to be malicious about it.

- Your cousin is willing to forgive him. So at least you know that the friendship can be salvaged.

But if you ask me, in order for that to happen, the following needs to happen:

- You need to talk to him about this whole situation first.

- Friend A needs to apologize formally not just to your cousin, but also to your cousin's parents and to everyone else who had to see that incident. And he needs to be sincere about it. He also needs to be prepared with the reality that he might never be welcome over to your house again.

I know for damn sure that if any kid were to smack my kid around, he's never going to step foot in my house again, lest he wants to leave on a stretcher.

- if your cousin and your cousin's parents accepts the apology and seriously is okay with it, THEN your friend should be allowed back for another session.

Luckily, it doesn't sound like your friend is really a jerk, just acted inappropriately.

kamikasei
2009-09-04, 04:18 AM
Violent people aren't completely sane. Some violent people suppress it and appear sane, but if it's there, it can and will be triggered eventually. I'm not saying he's gonna go postal... The worst he might ever do is throw a few punches... But it's impossible to tell how deep it runs. You're best off avoiding all contact with him.

That's a pretty extreme action on the basis of very thin evidence. To be honest I find such eagerness to rush to judgment to be more alarming than the friend's behaviour here.

Killer Angel
2009-09-04, 04:29 AM
Originally Posted by Zeful
Assault over a game is simply wrong and immature no matter what happened in the game life.

Fixed



I respectfully disagree. Acting violently in self-defense is perfectly fine.
(EDIT: bad example, clarification in another post, thanks to Pharaoh's fist)

For the OP: he tried to apologize. Probably in that moment he was also scared: when I was 18, playing wrestling-like with my little cousin, he hurt his lip and there was some little blood. It was totally an accident, without ripercussion, but I was scared to death because I was 18 and I made a BIG mistake to play a violent game with a kid, without foreseeing the consequences. It was my damn duty to think before acting.
In this case, it was not an accident and the kid was not the cousin of Player A, so things are bigger; probably the guy was scared, and saying: "i didn't want to hit so hard" is the only excusation that he was capable to do.
But these are only hypotesis, i don't know. Certainly he acted like a jerk.

I'm sure of only a thing: The kid's parents must speak with player A and listen to what he had to say in his defense. They choose.

Tiki Snakes
2009-09-04, 04:40 AM
That's a pretty extreme action on the basis of very thin evidence. To be honest I find such eagerness to rush to judgment to be more alarming than the friend's behaviour here.

Quoted for truth.

Give things time to calm down, see if an apologie is forthcoming. Sure, he tried to apologise, but if you didn't hear, you didn't hear.

I'd suggest personally, might be worth you all hooking up outside of a gaming enviroment and chilling for a while, if/when the apology turns up, or to give it the opportunity to.

Eloel
2009-09-04, 06:18 AM
I honestly think he got mad and threw a punch. I've never felt a compulsion to punch/smash/hit/break/ect... anything before, so I don't know what that feels like... And if I ever do, I'll find myself a psychologist, because that's the appropriate response to that.

It would be OK, or at least close to OK, if it was a real punch on someone of same age. If you'd go for a psychologist at the smallest hint of aggression, you should be living in somewhere akin to Candyland with Happy Pink Elephants.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-04, 06:39 AM
I respectfully disagree. Acting violently in self-defense is perfectly fine.

Yes, but assault is not self defense, as the person you are disagreeing with stated.

Ecalsneerg
2009-09-04, 07:16 AM
I agree. From what I understand, the guy wanted to give him a friendly slap upside the head - you know, the kind that doesn't actually hurt - and he hit him harder than he intended. These things happen. And when everyone's suddenly mad at you, you don't always have the presence of mind to apologise.

Y'know, Herman is right. Back in my younger RPing days (say, about 14. I think), I had pretty much the same friendly slap performed too hard (My gaming group then spanned up to 30 yrs old, and seemed to be made up of bartenders :smallamused: ), and it hurt too.

Difference being, nobody was advocating me press charges and calling the guy the Anti-Christ. Because it was a playful slap that was a bit too hard. It happens.

Killer Angel
2009-09-04, 07:24 AM
Yes, but assault is not self defense, as the person you are disagreeing with stated.

My bad, you're right.
Still, we often see the police "taking initiative" and make an incursion to arrest some suspect.
And he stated also "no matter what happen in life".
If I see guy raping a screaming women, well, it's not self defense, but you can be sure that I'm going to "assault" the guy, with intent to stop him, even harming him (which can have some legal consequences for me, but still...).

My example was wrong, but it's the generalization that I don't agree with.

I'm pretty sure that others can come with better examples in which assaulting can be morally justified.
After all, we all kill evil orcs...
(Edit: I've eliminated the ref. to WWII and Normandy. War is a totally different matter)

Tiki Snakes
2009-09-04, 07:30 AM
My bad, you're right.
Still, we often see the police "taking initiative" and make an incursion to arrest some suspect.
And he stated also "no matter what happen in life". I suppose the Allies shouldn't have invaded Normandy...
If I see guy raping a screaming women, well, it's not self defense, but you can be sure that I'm going to "assault" the guy, with intent to stop him, even harming him (which can have some legal consequences for me, but still...).

My example was wrong, but it's the generalization that I don't agree with.

Actually, though it will have consequences, it still legally counts as self defence, (or something close enough), that you'd almost certainly face no REAL reprocussions, though you'd possibly be arrested till facts can be ascertained.

Well, that's what it says of the american system in the WoD book, anyway. ^_^

pres_man
2009-09-04, 07:47 AM
This makes me think of:


Harry Potter: Hey Big D. Beat up another 10 year old?
Dudley Dursley: This one deserved it.

Seriously though, hitting someone in the head/face for a game is way out of line. Player A should have at this point zero expectation of ever getting to play with this particular group again. If the parents choose not to allow him to be around their child, then the DM/cousin should definitely back this up and make that clear to the kid. It is not the kid's fault, it is player A's fault, he stepped out of line and burnt his own bridges. Frankly, point out that if he is willing to do that, what might he do if you as the GM kill his character?

Now if the parents choose to accept an apology and allow them to game together again, it should be made clear that player A is walking on eggshells. One step out of line and he is gone for good, parents or no. Whether the kid broke any (unspoken) player agreements or not, player A broke even more serious (unspoke) social agreements. Adults do not attack children, unless in self defense or defense of another. Someone 7 years older than a child should understand that clearly and should not be in the slightest bit confused about where the lines are drawn.

Holocron Coder
2009-09-04, 08:27 AM
Just repeating that 75% of the thread is overreaction. Don't we love it when people don't completely read the OP and jump to conclusions?

Makes me hope that if I ever need a jury "of peers" (probably over a traffic incident, if anything), that none of the over-reactors here are in it.

shadzar
2009-09-04, 08:39 AM
Really? The fact that being taken to task for one's actions will not serve to point out how poorly he behaved and that he is obviously in the wrong? You seem to have less faith in the perpetrator than I do.

Assault over a game is simply wrong and immature no matter what happened in the game. The man's 19, he assaulted a 12-year-old, at this point being nice to him is coddling him.

Yeah and the man in Japan that escorted a lost girl to the equivalent of a police station was arrested for being a pedophile for coming into contact with the girl. The parents were thankful the shop owner had helped get her somewhere safe, but laws so screwed up the guy was arrested for being helpful.

Is that how every country are going to become?

I was not going to post in this thread, and just been reading it, but the constant "arrest em cause I'm scared!" attitude is going over board.

I may have missed reading this and a bit busy, but ask some questions anyway:

1- Why were people not made aware of this "cousin's" mental/physical disability?

2- Where were his parent's or guardian that didn't tell others about it?

3- A group of guys get together and bumps and bruises happen. What would anyone say about the younger getting hurt if they were playing some kind of sport? Say a broke leg from being tackled playing football? As others have said, those slaps and punches are guy things. If the over-sized "kid" (bigger than his age) looked like someone older and has the body to take the same as someone older, then did everyone know of the age and think clearly about it while rough-housing?

That is just a few things wrong with this on all accounts of people from what I understand, and it doesn't even get into the problem of the gameplay which I don't recall reading anything about yet that could have caused tension:

1- Did the cousin know how to play?

2- Did the cousin and other players work together, or could the cousin have been disruptive beforehand and someone mention a difference of opinions in playing and ask the cousin do things differently for the group?

3- I understand the PvP was out of the blue, so maybe the GM didn't even know what to expect and advise the cousin about it in game terms as to what it would mean to the other player?

I will explain a similar experience with all "adults" (some with mentalities less than a 12 year old including the 40+ year old DM):

Game was heavily railroaded by the DM. PvP interactions were allowed withint he context of the game and the DM would not interfere with any of them. Story was about collecting three books to prevent all of them from being used to destroy the world. As a neutral character I saw balance as the option and each of the factions should have one of the books...Good, Neutral, Evil... Given the mission be a deity we were to collect the books and give them to her. I expressed on many accounts that this was not a good idea to the rest of the group. The DM of course had his story we were being used to tell, and some of the other player agreed with me something seemed fishy about the plot.

While collecting the second book it was stolen by another alignment group, and a mad dash was being made to go after them to collect it. Since everyone in the group was not willing to ever talk about the situation and the DM's SO was just following the plot I stabbed the character in the leg to stop them from chasing the book. The player group split into two factions and starting attacking each other over whether the right thing to do was collect the books and give them to one person to wield the power to destroy the world or leave them split up.

Needles to say the DM was piffed, as was his SO, and a few other people. The DM then just said "In a blinding light there is a big explosion." The DM ended the game because people weren't doing what he wanted and disappeared to another room to sulk. Every player had the time of their lives trying to figure out the in-game moral consequences of what had been going on for 2 months of game and nobody had before discussed what course to take. The fight was the highlight of the game for the players, but the DM decided people were just trying to ruin his game.

So as the player minus 2 were having fun, someone noticed the DM's SO sulking outside and confronted them explaining what happened and why, and realized that everything done in the game was how the group had dissolved to try to overtake the morality of this situation.

There were lots of cross words, but when it was figured out it was best for the game, even though after the DM decided to blow up the world, nobody wanted to play it anymore, and everyone blamed the DM for killing interest in the game...rather interest in him being a DM because he couldn't handle it.

Giving an entire planet to another faction could have been the same thing in this case, but could have easily been avoided had the game not gone like mine did and the players discussed things during the game about their intentions. Did the group actually work, or was it fated to be a non-functioning group to begin with?

While it doesn't excuse anyone from slapping someone upside the head for irritating them, there are things that could have been done in advance to prevent it from escalating that far. So hitting never solves anything is true, I ask was there anything else done that could have contributed to this, or could have been done to prevent it, and is the "friend a" the only one at fault?

Or is "friend a" just being used as a scapegoat for all the failures in the game and group that led up to the incident?

So make sure all the facts are looked at in your group, and deal with it internally rather than taking advice from random people on the internet. Make sure the cousin's disabilities or health problems are known to everyone and they are taken into account as games or other activities are done. Make sure everyone is willing to play or participate, and make sure everyone is having fun in the game, and take breaks RIGHT when tensions start, not after.

I am gonna re-read this thread now to see what if anything was found out from the "friend a" since this all spiraled out of control quick and no one seemed to try to prevent it.

EDIT: Just read the post form the TC, and good to know he did apologize even though events created preoccupied thoughts that missed it, but be warned...you should NOT tel you cousin not to forgive anyone for anything! That was a wrong lesson to teach to your cousin. He may never be around the guy anymore, or may never play in a game with him or whatever, but forgiving him for hitting him in the spur of the moment, accidental, or even being too rough when rough-housing only sets your cousin up to become angry from not being able to forgive people because he was taught not to forgive people. You CAN forgive people for doing something wrong, and still not want anything to do with them anymore if the results turn out like that. You cousin could think nobody should be forgiven if the wrong example is set. The cousin was on the right track for forgiving the friend a no matter what else transpired.

Mathius
2009-09-04, 08:41 AM
On the matter I will say this.

Your cousin was a douche for doing what he did. I would have used some rather unfriendly explatives, but I would not have smacked him. That was above and beyond unacceptable. I would have kicked the snot out of the bastard (player A) for something like that.

I have been gaming for 21 years. I know how bad it can escalate when you get a player that is too into it. About fifteen years ago I got pissed at one of the players in our group (I couldn't stand the prick, but he was my DM's buddy so I had to deal with it). The guy stole the captain of the guards amulet and dropped it into my character's pack. I got arrested and executed.
I was so pissed off at him I actually threw him through a plate-glass window. He spent two days in the hospital and had to get 247 stitches. I still feel bad about that. The funny thing is, my DM buddy still let me play with them. After that me and the guy became close friends. I attended his wedding last summer. We both admitted we were wrong.

But I digress. It seems like player A is a little unstable. I am sure it was an accident, and after talking it out, things should be okay. A playful slap on the head is one thing, but he crossed the line. Give him another chance to apologize and make good.

Matthew
2009-09-04, 08:48 AM
I once slapped a friend of mine on the top of her head much harder than I had intended to (it was supposed to be a tap). She was talking smack about somebody who was approaching (who she had not seen, as she had her back to him), and I had intended it to be a quick warning to be quiet (like a dig in the ribs, or a kick under the table). I got a lot of grief over that ill considered action, and felt like it was directed unfairly because my intention was so completely different from the outcome. Live and learn.

pres_man
2009-09-04, 09:22 AM
1- Why were people not made aware of this "cousin's" mental/physical disability?

2- Where were his parent's or guardian that didn't tell others about it?

3- A group of guys get together and bumps and bruises happen. What would anyone say about the younger getting hurt if they were playing some kind of sport? Say a broke leg from being tackled playing football? As others have said, those slaps and punches are guy things. If the over-sized "kid" (bigger than his age) looked like someone older and has the body to take the same as someone older, then did everyone know of the age and think clearly about it while rough-housing?

From Revenge of the Nerds 2, Gilbert broke his leg playing chess--"Hey, don't get down on yourself," Lewis tells him. "That was a difficult move".

I'm sorry, people shouldn't have to tell everyone about a physical disability that might only be an issue if they are hit in the head if they are going to play a PnP roleplaying game. LARPing, sure that would make sense. Star Wars roleplaying game, nope. You are rolling dice, not tackling each other comparing it to football is silly.

Besides, what does it matter if the kid has a condition or not. If the kid was completely health, would that then make it totally ok to go around slapping him around because you didn't like his ingame decisions. Also if you read the other comments, you'll see that there was no PvP action. He just choose a different faction to support for control. The player A could have just said, "Ok, but this means your character is out of the party because now we will have to work against your people." Player B was capable of not smacking the kid around, player A has no excuse.

I also love the whole, "I didn't mean to hit you ... that hard." I mean it is like somebody saying, "Yeah, I kicked you in the crotch, but I didn't mean to hit the beans AND the frank."

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-04, 09:23 AM
I once slapped a friend of mine on the top of her head much harder than I had intended to (it was supposed to be a tap). She was talking smack about somebody who was approaching (who she had not seen, as she had her back to him)

"Why are you staring at me like that?"
"..."
"He's behind me, isn't he?"


Yeah and the man in Japan that escorted a lost girl to the equivalent of a police station was arrested for being a pedophile for coming into contact with the girl. The parents were thankful the shop owner had helped get her somewhere safe, but laws so screwed up the guy was arrested for being helpful.

Is that how every country are going to become?

Apocryphal evidence is not evidence.


3- A group of guys get together and bumps and bruises happen. What would anyone say about the younger getting hurt if they were playing some kind of sport? Say a broke leg from being tackled playing football? As others have said, those slaps and punches are guy things. If the over-sized "kid" (bigger than his age) looked like someone older and has the body to take the same as someone older, then did everyone know of the age and think clearly about it while rough-housing?

DnD is not a sport in which one routinely expects to recieve physical injury in, last time I checked.

kamikasei
2009-09-04, 09:34 AM
Besides, what does it matter if the kid has a condition or not. If the kid was completely health, would that then make it totally ok to go around slapping him around because you didn't like his ingame decisions.

Either the fact that the kid had a condition is relevant, or not. Since the OP saw fit to mention it, presumably he thinks it is relevant. Its relevance is that the (potential) consequences of the friend's action were worse than he could have been expected to know.

It is possible for it to be not okay for him to have hit the kid whether the kid had a condition or not, and at the same time for us to recognize that the fact that the kid was particularly susceptible to dire consequences does not mean that those consequences were what the friend was maliciously trying to bring about.

Or to put it another way: if the kid was completely healthy, then yes, it would make it more okay to playfully smack him on the head without force, because the risks if you accidentally hit harder than you intend are not so grave. Note also that more okay is not totally okay.


I also love the whole, "I didn't mean to hit you ... that hard." I mean it is like somebody saying, "Yeah, I kicked you in the crotch, but I didn't mean to hit the beans AND the frank."

Okay, that's just nonsense. See Matthew's post earlier. You're straining to put the worst possible interpretation on events.

pres_man
2009-09-04, 09:50 AM
Okay, that's just nonsense. See Matthew's post earlier. You're straining to put the worst possible interpretation on events.

Your right. The guy must have accidentally aimed for the kid's head and accidentally swung hard, and it was just random coincidence that the kid had just made the guy's game a bit harder. The guy lost his cool and hit a kid intentionally, maybe he didn't realize how angry he was and that he was going to swing that hard, but he knew he was angry and he intentionally hit the kid. The hardness of the hit and the physical consequences of that action don't really matter to the fact that he intentionally meant to hit a kid 7 years younger than him for stuff that happened in a game. And the kid wasn't even goading him on.

My point is, saying, "I didn't mean to hit you that hard." Isn't an apology, because you are not indicating you are sorry for hitting them but only for doing it hard. He should be saying, "I was totally out of line to smack you. And I am really upset I hit you so hard. But there is no excuse for me hitting you hard or not."

shadzar
2009-09-04, 09:54 AM
From Revenge of the Nerds 2, Gilbert broke his leg playing chess--"Hey, don't get down on yourself," Lewis tells him. "That was a difficult move".

I'm sorry, people shouldn't have to tell everyone about a physical disability that might only be an issue if they are hit in the head if they are going to play a PnP roleplaying game. LARPing, sure that would make sense. Star Wars roleplaying game, nope. You are rolling dice, not tackling each other comparing it to football is silly.

Whether hit in the head or not a disability that causes big migraine headaches, is something of note that should be expressed.

I recall a guy in a Magic tournament getting into an argument over the outcome of a on-the-side game being played while waiting for the next round and one guy hit the floor and was "twitching". Police were called and the other guy was taken into custody while waiting on an ambulance, and the ambulance noticed a bracelet saying the guy that fell was epileptic. Needless to say this info could have caused a lot less problems like the other guy almost going to jail for nothing because the other guy didn't tell anyone of his condition. Also the guy could have swallowed his tongue and died because nobody knew, and thought it was a fight rather than an episode.

So ANY condition no matter the activity others should be made aware of for safety's sake.


DnD is not a sport in which one routinely expects to recieve physical injury in, last time I checked.

This was Star Wars, not D&D, and I don't know much about SWRPG, except that Star Wars fans can be violent about the SW universe with arguments.

D&D you do expect physical injury during game from someone throwing a die and it bouncing around the room when the stupid things only roll low. :smallfurious: Maybe your group only uses cheating dice that always roll high, and the DM always rolls low? So in D&D you always expect potential harm from flying dice. :smallsmile:

Either way the point remains...something went wrong prior to the incident and for ALL parties concerned it needs to be prevented the next time a game is played.

Anteros
2009-09-04, 09:59 AM
He already said that he didn't mean for it to hurt. I can't believe that none of you has ever jokingly hit a friend without intending to hurt him...You're all acting like he dragged the kid into the street and beat him.

Honestly...quit being crybabies. Accidents happen. Often, accidents happen due to lapses in judgement...but they're still accidents.

As for the OP...I think you did the right thing in ending the session. I'd tell your friend he needs to sit down with your cousin and his parents and apologize though. If he won't do it, then it may be time to end that friendship. If he does it I'd just forget about the whole incident and move on.

kamikasei
2009-09-04, 09:59 AM
Your right. The guy must have accidentally aimed for the kid's head and accidentally swung hard, and it was just random coincidence that the kid had just made the guy's game a bit harder.

That's awesome. I've never been right before without actually saying whatever I was apparently right about.

Look, I am not saying that what happened was okay. I'm saying that what the OP himself thinks was intended, a joking, light blow to the head, would have been okay. If you want to argue that that would not have been okay, then go ahead, and I'll disagree with you on that but it's a difference of opinion. But if you want to argue that you, unlike the guy who was present and knows everyone involved, know that no such harmless act was intended but that the guy really was out to cause damage (and if that's not what you're trying to say, then the analogy of kicking someone in the crotch is a pretty poor one), then I'll say that opinions aside, your argument is simply wrong.


The guy lost his cool and hit a kid intentionally, maybe he didn't realize how angry he was and that he was going to swing that hard, but he knew he was angry and he intentionally hit the kid. The hardness of the hit and the physical consequences of that action don't really matter to the fact that he intentionally meant to hit a kid 7 years younger than him for stuff that happened in a game. And the kid wasn't even goading him on.

Well, no. The hardness of the hit and its physical consequences do indeed matter. If he did intend what the OP thinks, and had done so:


He was going to jokingly sort of hit my cousin on the head lightly in an "Oh you ass Ill get you back way".

then in my book there would have been no problem. His error was not in touching the kid at all, but in acting in anger and without control.


My point is, saying, "I didn't mean to hit you that hard." Isn't an apology, because you are not indicating you are sorry for hitting them but only for doing it hard. He should be saying, "I was totally out of line to smack you. And I am really upset I hit you so hard. But there is no excuse for me hitting you hard or not."

Ah, this is a little clearer, and it looks like it is a difference of opinion. "I didn't mean to hit you with any force" is a very different apology to "I didn't mean to hit you that hard". It seems like you don't recognize any distinction between "jokingly sort of hit" and "hit lightly".


He already said that he didn't mean for it to hurt. I can't believe that none of you has ever jokingly hit a friend without intending to hurt him...You're all acting like he dragged the kid into the street and beat him.

Honestly...quit being crybabies. Accidents happen. Often, accidents happen due to lapses in judgement...but they're still accidents.

As for the OP...I think you did the right thing in ending the session. I'd tell your friend he needs to sit down with your cousin and his parents and apologize though. If he won't do it, then it may be time to end that friendship. If he does it I'd just forget about the whole incident and move on.

Agreed fully. The guy intended (it seems) something harmless, caused harm, apparently has apologized, should apologize again to everyone involved, and that should be an end to it.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-04, 10:01 AM
He already said that he didn't mean for it to hurt. I can't believe that none of you has ever jokingly hit a friend without intending to hurt him...You're all acting like he dragged the kid into the street and beat him.


I guess that settles it, because no one ever lies, ever.

Anteros
2009-09-04, 10:02 AM
I guess that settles it, because no one ever lies, ever.

No. People do lie, but the OP already stated that he believed his statement to be true...and personally I think he might be in a slightly
better position to judge the veracity of such a statement than you.

kamikasei
2009-09-04, 10:05 AM
I guess that settles it, because no one ever lies, ever.

Bloody hell - again, why are so many in this thread ready to draw and quarter the person the OP, who was there, and who knows the people involved, thinks had no intent to cause harm and is genuniely sorry?

Kylarra
2009-09-04, 10:05 AM
I guess that settles it, because no one ever lies, ever.If we operate under the assumption that everyone lies, I choose to believe that you are deliberately overexaggerating reactions for your own amusment. :smallamused:

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-04, 10:07 AM
Bloody hell - again, why are so many in this thread ready to draw and quarter the person the OP, who was there, and who knows the people involved, thinks had no intent to cause harm and is genuniely sorry?

I guess it's because I've never been accidentally hit by someone, only deliberately.

Anteros
2009-09-04, 10:08 AM
I guess it's because I've never been accidentally hit by someone, only deliberately.

You have lived a very sheltered life. Or perhaps you're just monumentally lucky.

Eloel
2009-09-04, 10:08 AM
You have lived a very sheltered life.
This...
10char

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-04, 10:09 AM
So, do they always hit you on purpose?

That's what "deliberate" usually means, yes.


You have lived a very sheltered life. Or perhaps you're just monumentally lucky.
You didn't read the last part of that sentence, did you?

Killer Angel
2009-09-04, 10:10 AM
I guess it's because I've never been accidentally hit by someone, only deliberately.

It seems that you provoke very strong reactions in peoples near you... :smalltongue:

Eloel
2009-09-04, 10:10 AM
That's what "deliberate" usually means, yes.

That's what I get for not going through the whole sentence before quoting. (or for getting ninja-edited, not sure)

pres_man
2009-09-04, 10:10 AM
Bloody hell - again, why are so many in this thread ready to draw and quarter the person the OP, who was there, and who knows the people involved, thinks had no intent to cause harm and is genuniely sorry?

As I said above, if the family decides to accept his apology and decides it will be ok for them to continue gaming together great. But frankly, the guy screwed up. I wonder why people are so willing to brush it under the rug with a "boys will be boys" attitude. If you can't keep yourself from hurting other people, and he did hurt the kid, remember this:


Instead though his little irritation slap turns into a full on backhand to the temple for this kid who is much younger and smaller than him. Worse is the kid completely trusted this guy before this.

So my cousin is hurt and crying,...

Then you really need to question whether you should be interacting with other people in that setting. Until a person can control themselves, it is better for everyone for them to not be in that situation. Do you think if they do game together, that kid is ever going to do anything against player A's interests? Probably not.

Anteros
2009-09-04, 10:11 AM
You didn't read the last part of that sentence, did you?

Sure I did...but you've never been accidentally hit? Man, I've been accidentally hit so many times I couldn't possibly count.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-04, 10:12 AM
If we define "hit" as "I really didn't mean to punch you that hard when I got angry at you, are you ok?" (a situation similar to what we are talking about in this thread) then no.

woodenbandman
2009-09-04, 10:12 AM
Jumping in to defend friend A here. He's really mad about what happened in game. He'll probably apologize when he gets over it. If not though that's a problem.

Eloel
2009-09-04, 10:15 AM
Sure I did...but you've never been accidentally hit? Man, I've been accidentally hit so many times I couldn't possibly count.

Stop typing out what I'm thinking.

'Never accidentally hit', IS in the 'monumentally lucky' category. If not under 'too young to be hit', which Pharoah isn't.

'Too young' in that context, is 6-7 age. 12 is enough for a kid to start being overly annoying. And deserving, in a manner. I don't know the child nor FriendA in the OP, so it's best left to OP's and the kid's family's judgement.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-04, 10:16 AM
You have been ninja'd with my definition of hit which, to wit, is more like "punched with force" rather than "come into light contact with someone's hand."

Whenever I've been hurt by someone who was angry at me, it was always a deliberate act.

pres_man
2009-09-04, 10:18 AM
If we define "hit" as "I really didn't mean to punch you that hard when I got angry at you, are you ok?" (a situation similar to what we are talking about in this thread) then no.

I agree, I've never had something the equivalent of a full on backhand done to me or by me, be an "accident". Even when I tossed a checkbook and hit an ex-girlfriend in the face with it, I didn't mean to hit her in the face but I certainly meant to throw it hard in her direction (I was aiming for the wall by her, but rolled a 1 and was apparently using the critical failures). It wasn't an "accident" though, it was forseeable consequence of my actions.

Fixer
2009-09-04, 10:19 AM
*backhands everyone in the thread, because he is old and feels like it*

There.

Now, everyone stop getting your knickers in a twist and wait for this situation to pan out. You are gossiping like old mother hens at a knitting bee.

kamikasei
2009-09-04, 10:20 AM
As I said above, if the family decides to accept his apology and decides it will be ok for them to continue gaming together great. But frankly, the guy screwed up. I wonder why people are so willing to brush it under the rug with a "boys will be boys" attitude. If you can't keep yourself from hurting other people, and he did hurt the kid, remember this:
...
Then you really need to question whether you should be interacting with other people in that setting. Until a person can control themselves, it is better for everyone for them to not be in that situation. Do you think if they do game together, that kid is ever going to do anything against player A's interests? Probably not.

Again, you seem to be reading something in to my posts that isn't there. I agree that the guy screwed up. He should apologize for doing so. I don't see any reason why that apology shouldn't be accepted and he forgiven. Nor do I see his screw up as attempting to jokingly thump the kid without any force, but as being too angry to control himself properly.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-04, 10:20 AM
*backhands everyone in the thread, because he is old and feels like it*


*Forehands Fixer*

I counter your backhand and undo its backhandedness.

pres_man
2009-09-04, 10:25 AM
Again, you seem to be reading something in to my posts that isn't there. I agree that the guy screwed up. He should apologize for doing so. I don't see any reason why that apology shouldn't be accepted and he forgiven. Nor do I see his screw up as attempting to jokingly thump the kid without any force, but as being too angry to control himself properly.

I'm still trying to see how taking your backhand (even with no force) to the side of someone's face is a "jokingly thump". Slap on the back, sure. Punch in the arm or leg, ok. Kick in the rear, fine. But putting your hand to someone's face (and remember it wasn't the back or top of the head, it was the temple), sorry I just don't see it. Maybe it is a upbringing thing. I have 4 older brothers and was pounded on regularly, but we never, ever hit in the face. That was going over the line.

Killer Angel
2009-09-04, 10:31 AM
All of this imho boils down to this:

Friend A had the right to punch the child? No
It's SO serious to call the police? No
It's SO serious to call the parents? of course it was
Can this act be forgiven? maybe yes, maybe not. The parents will judge. They know the fact, they'll listen their son's expectation, They'll hear the apologies and explanations of guy A.

There's no need to discuss so much.

Eloel
2009-09-04, 10:31 AM
So, a slap is worth considering someone serial killer? There are MANY parents that should be jailed then...

Edit: This is @pres, not the guy before me.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-04, 10:31 AM
So, a slap is worth considering someone serial killer? There are MANY parents that should be jailed then...

Don't believe anyone ever advocated the death penalty.

Eloel
2009-09-04, 10:34 AM
Don't believe anyone ever advocated the death penalty.

There was quite a few people who were going 'call the police! sue him!' through the thread...

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-04, 10:34 AM
There was quite a few people who were going 'call the police! sue him!' through the thread...

One does not typically sue a serial killer. Jail or the death penalty is generally seen as more appropriate due to the excessive cruelty that would be meted out by law suit lawyers.

Eloel
2009-09-04, 10:41 AM
One does not typically sue a serial killer. Jail or the death penalty is generally seen as more appropriate due to the excessive cruelty that would be meted out by law suit lawyers.

So, you think he should be sued? I wonder what kind of a judge would find him guilty, let alone join the case. A joking-slap went-bad, and people are acting like he's a psychopathical criminal.

pres_man
2009-09-04, 10:41 AM
So, a slap is worth considering someone serial killer? There are MANY parents that should be jailed then...

Edit: This is @pres, not the guy before me.


There was quite a few people who were going 'call the police! sue him!' through the thread...

And yet I have never once mentioned getting the police involved. So I fail to see your point. I have indicated that the guy should have no expectation that he will be gaming around the kid anymore. That doesn't mean that I would fault the family for giving it another chance, but that is not a given nor should it be expected to be.

Sometimes sorry isn't enough. If it looks like there will be lingering tension, and the kid might be (subconsciously) scared of upsetting the player A, then it would not be health to put them together, at least of awhile (say 6 years :smalltongue:)

kamikasei
2009-09-04, 10:42 AM
So, you think he should be sued?

That's not what he said. You don't normally sue a serial killer, so if people are saying "sue him!" that doesn't suggest they see him as a serial killer.

Eloel
2009-09-04, 10:43 AM
And yet I have never once mentioned getting the police involved. So I fail to see your point. I have indicated that the guy should have no expectation that he will be gaming around the kid anymore. That doesn't mean that I would fault the family for giving it another chance, but that is not a given nor should it be expected to be.

There were people doing it, 'who' did was beyond me. Sorry if it went wrong on you.

The guy shouldn't expect to game around the kid, only if the kid himself doesn't want him to. If the kid is understanding on how the guy is sorry on the issue, and it was not a knowingly done hit, what could anyone say?

pres_man
2009-09-04, 10:45 AM
If the kid is understanding on how the guy is sorry on the issue, and it was not a knowingly done hit, what could anyone say?

The parents could say they don't think it is appropriate, and then done.

Frankly this is just a bad situation all around. At least it isn't D&D, that doesn't need another black-eye (no pun intended).

Killer Angel
2009-09-04, 10:52 AM
I'm still trying to see how taking your backhand (even with no force) to the side of someone's face is a "jokingly thump". Slap on the back, sure. Punch in the arm or leg, ok. Kick in the rear, fine. But putting your hand to someone's face (and remember it wasn't the back or top of the head, it was the temple), sorry I just don't see it. Maybe it is a upbringing thing. I have 4 older brothers and was pounded on regularly, but we never, ever hit in the face. That was going over the line.

I see your point. I think there's no secure "rules".
I've a daughter (just a little older than your bro) and yes, sometimes I "hit" her in the face... how?
only with the back of my fingers (not the backhand) on her cheek, or with the front of my finger (not the palm) on her high neck. And I don't hit, it's simply a "tap". It's an advertisement that she's doing something not-so-good.
Sometimes she ask me "Why?" (and I explain), sometimes she just look at me smiling ("Ah, you've caught me!").

Is this comparable to what Friend A did? no, but was just to say that "over the line" is defined by various things.
In my eyes, the anger behind the act, is more deprecable than the act itself.

Ashes
2009-09-04, 11:04 AM
God, I'm so happy that I live in a country where a lawsuit for this kind of thing is not even possible. The police probably wouldn't even pick up the case. And I believe that is a good thing.

My friends and I punch each other all the time. Just a couple of weeks ago, I gave a friend a black eye, and he punched me in the ear. It was all in good fun.

Callos_DeTerran
2009-09-04, 11:20 AM
I'm still trying to see how taking your backhand (even with no force) to the side of someone's face is a "jokingly thump". Slap on the back, sure. Punch in the arm or leg, ok. Kick in the rear, fine. But putting your hand to someone's face (and remember it wasn't the back or top of the head, it was the temple), sorry I just don't see it. Maybe it is a upbringing thing. I have 4 older brothers and was pounded on regularly, but we never, ever hit in the face. That was going over the line.

Wow, it must be an upbringing thing. The only reason my sibling and I TRIED not to hit each other in the face was because it left a mark that'd get both of us in trouble. Had we discovered ways to hit each other in the face without leaving marks, we would have thrashed each other.

Even with my friends a slap to the back of the head or a mock backhand is an acceptable response to something truly idiotic. (The 12 year old is not an example of idiotic but fine role-playing)

I mean hell...I'm with the over-reaction people. It even looks like the 12 year old would be with the over-reaction people, and he's the one that got hit.

And let it be on the record, assault can solve anything. It's just a matter of how much you use and how you apply it. :smallbiggrin: (Only half joking here)

shadzar
2009-09-04, 11:23 AM
Then you really need to question whether you should be interacting with other people in that setting. Until a person can control themselves, it is better for everyone for them to not be in that situation. Do you think if they do game together, that kid is ever going to do anything against player A's interests? Probably not.

If the kid had been called a bunch of names he could have been hurt and crying also.

"Hey you moron you just screwed up everything that we had been working for the past X days in the game. Thanks for ruining it, stupid!"

That can also lead to someone being hurt and crying. That is the way I read it since it also said the cousin looked up to or liked this other person so felt betrayed by him rather than blood gushing form him.

I love how society today wants to quickly point blame on one person without finding out the facts. Only gamgee knows all the facts as will the parents and other find out when it all comes out, so others need to stop being quick to find one single person to blame rather than taking the facts into account.

Some people hear "hurt" and think in ICU in a hospital, others hear it and think miffed or upset...who is to say but the person themselves, so stop trying to find the root of all your faults being someone else. Don't play the finger pointing game for thing you know nothing of.

And boys will be boys. Males are physical beings and express themselves in a physical manner. If you don't like that, then jump in a bubble and live in a vacuum. :smallfurious:

I can't count the number of times my clumsy ass fell and had people around me accused of knocking me down or something when I was younger, and it piffed me off to no end that people act stupid and so quick to blame someone for something without any facts. It still piffes me off today. Look before you leap.

kc0bbq
2009-09-04, 12:24 PM
Friend A had the right to punch the child? No
HE DID NOT PUNCH HIM. #*&@()*#&$(*#&@ (*#%&(&(@#&$@)

There are so many White Knights in this thread it feels like Faramir charging Osgiliath. Everyone overreacted. Even the 12 year-old overreacted, but he's 12 so it's understandable.

No, the 19 year old shouldn't be locked away, he's not unstable, he's not a danger to children. He went to play slap someone and for whatever reason the contact was harder than intended. It wasn't rape, or attempted murder, or whatever else keep trying to pin on him. I've spent more time than I should defending my generation and the generations around me from accusations of being soft, spineless crybabies, but this thread is making me lose hope.

How "irritation slap" turned into a roundhouse with brass knuckles on is beyond me.

Eloel
2009-09-04, 12:38 PM
Oh come on, it was a fit of rage he had. He was actually aware of the child's problems, and was deliberately trying to harm, or even possibly kill the child there. After all, he has worked so much for the game, a little kid shouldn't be able to smack through the campaign. The kid deserved it, and the beating was delivered swiftly. The guy was aware he would be sued, and could be imprisoned for life, but such is life.

[/sarcasm] You can't type something so idiotic that everyone gets it's sarcastic.

shadzar
2009-09-04, 01:06 PM
Oh come on, it was a fit of rage he had. He was actually aware of the child's problems, and was deliberately trying to harm, or even possibly kill the child there. After all, he has worked so much for the game, a little kid shouldn't be able to smack through the campaign. The kid deserved it, and the beating was delivered swiftly. The guy was aware he would be sued, and could be imprisoned for life, but such is life.

:smalleek: You can be sued for assault now? I thought it was a criminal offense, not a civil one. :smallconfused:

Optimystik
2009-09-04, 01:09 PM
God, I'm so happy that I live in a country where a lawsuit for this kind of thing is not even possible. The police probably wouldn't even pick up the case. And I believe that is a good thing.

My friends and I punch each other all the time. Just a couple of weeks ago, I gave a friend a black eye, and he punched me in the ear. It was all in good fun.

Agreed. The people crying "sue!" are the reason stupid people win millions of dollars for spilling hot coffee on themselves.

pres_man
2009-09-04, 01:27 PM
Obviously the kid was the one at fault. He obviously goaded the guy into hitting them and then "acted" hurt. And obviously his parents are also at fault. I mean did they actually go out of there way to tell anyone there NOT to hit their kid? If they didn't, then they obviously were ok with someone hitting their kid. This guy, player A, was just a poor victim forced into a situation beyond his control. He had no choice but to hit the kid, the kid made him do it. Unfortunately our society more and more wants to look down and even punish people like this guy.

I mean just image if they were all adults. And if instead of the kid it was actually player A's wife. Think about if player A's wife had just totally boned the entire campaign for everyone. A quick backhand would have been the only way a husband could react to his wife in that situation. And to think some people would actually blame the husband, the wife would have made him do it. And still if he had apologized (though there was no reason he should) and even if the wife would accept it and say everything is fine, and everyone was adults. There would still be those over-reactive people that just wouldn't let it go.

kc0bbq
2009-09-04, 01:33 PM
Obviously the kid was the one at fault. He obviously goaded the guy into hitting them and then "acted" hurt. And obviously his parents are also at fault. I mean did they actually go out of there way to tell anyone there NOT to hit their kid? If they didn't, then they obviously were ok with someone hitting their kid. This guy, player A, was just a poor victim forced into a situation beyond his control. He had no choice but to hit the kid, the kid made him do it. Unfortunately our society more and more wants to look down and even punish people like this guy.

I mean just image if they were all adults. And if instead of the kid it was actually player A's wife. Think about if player A's wife had just totally boned the entire campaign for everyone. A quick backhand would have been the only way a husband could react to his wife in that situation. And to think some people would actually blame the husband, the wife would have made him do it. And still if he had apologized (though there was no reason he should) and even if the wife would accept it and say everything is fine, and everyone was adults. There would still be those over-reactive people that just wouldn't let it go.Apples != Oranges.

Intent is a huge part of modern law. We don't live under Hammurabi's Code.

Forget it. I'm out of this race to show who cares more and who is more compassionate.

pres_man
2009-09-04, 01:38 PM
Apples != Oranges.

Intent is a huge part of modern law. We don't live under Hammurabi's Code.

Forget it. I'm out of this race to show who cares more and who is more compassionate.

Are you assuming there would have to be a difference of intent between what happened in this situation and if the situation had involved adults who were spouses? Why couldn't the husband in the scenerio I suggested just trying to be doing the same thing guy A did. Just give a "jokingly thump" that accidentally got out of hand.

shadzar
2009-09-04, 01:48 PM
Are you assuming there would have to be a difference of intent between what happened in this situation and if the situation had involved adults who were spouses? Why couldn't the husband in the scenerio I suggested just trying to be doing the same thing guy A did. Just give a "jokingly thump" that accidentally got out of hand.

:smallconfused: An ex smacked me in the arm once for saying something in a game, and I smacked her back for it. So reverse your initial and the wife smacked the husband...there isn't anything wrong with that though is it? Now say the wife was a former GLOW wrestler and the husband is like Wormser from the Nerds movies.

But since it is a woman hitting a man it would be ok no matter the size difference right?

pres_man
2009-09-04, 02:03 PM
:smallconfused: An ex smacked me in the arm once for saying something in a game, and I smacked her back for it. So reverse your initial and the wife smacked the husband...there isn't anything wrong with that though is it? Now say the wife was a former GLOW wrestler and the husband is like Wormser from the Nerds movies.

But since it is a woman hitting a man it would be ok no matter the size difference right?

I don't think the situation is any different if the sexes were reversed. Of course, it gets a bit harder to say "boys being boys" when the one doing the action is not a "boy". But no, reverse the sexes in my post if that works better for you.


I mean just image if they were all adults. And if instead of the kid it was actually player A's husband and player A was a woman. Think about if player A's husband had just totally boned the entire campaign for everyone. A quick backhand would have been the only way a wife could react to her husband in that situation. And to think some people would actually blame the wife, the husband would have made her do it. And still if she had apologized (though there was no reason she should) and even if the husband would accept it and say everything is fine, and everyone was adults. There would still be those over-reactive people that just wouldn't let it go.

There. All better now?

Zeful
2009-09-04, 02:10 PM
Obviously the kid was the one at fault. He obviously goaded the guy into hitting them and then "acted" hurt. And obviously his parents are also at fault. I mean did they actually go out of there way to tell anyone there NOT to hit their kid? If they didn't, then they obviously were ok with someone hitting their kid. This guy, player A, was just a poor victim forced into a situation beyond his control. He had no choice but to hit the kid, the kid made him do it. Unfortunately our society more and more wants to look down and even punish people like this guy.
So if no one tells me not to randomly assault people, it's okay to do so. How about rape, arson, murder, jaywalking, theft, fraud? Are those okay to do because no one told you not to?

Just because no one told the 19-year-old to not hit a 12-year-old, it does not make him right to do so unless the 12-year-old is attacking him. This is one of those things that go without saying because we are no longer a despotic society in which the strongest rule.


I mean just image if they were all adults. And if instead of the kid it was actually player A's wife. Think about if player A's wife had just totally boned the entire campaign for everyone. A quick backhand would have been the only way a husband could react to his wife in that situation. And to think some people would actually blame the husband, the wife would have made him do it. And still if he had apologized (though there was no reason he should) and even if the wife would accept it and say everything is fine, and everyone was adults. There would still be those over-reactive people that just wouldn't let it go.

Changing the situation to prove your point is a really bad argumentative stance. Doubly so when the changed scenario does not equate in any fashion to the original. In both cases, the person swinging is in the wrong getting physical over a board game is pretty ridiculous no matter what situation you frame it in short of a drunken frat party.

Killer Angel
2009-09-04, 03:57 PM
HE DID NOT PUNCH HIM. #*&@()*#&$(*#&@ (*#%&(&(@#&$@)


It seems you typed wrongly. I can't read your phrase correctly... :smalltongue:
OK, seriously, i don't want to excalate, so I'll stay calm.
the punch came out of my finger because in the last 2 pages we were all discussing on "hit", "punch" and so on.



How "irritation slap" turned into a roundhouse with brass knuckles on is beyond me.

"irritation slap" is not the same thing as "a full on backhand", but I agree wth you. Don't waste your sarcasm with me, in ALL my posts, you'll find NO one hard accusation of the guy. I can comprehend a "slap" gone harder than intended.
Maybe you were pissed of all this "overreaction", and I was the first in line?
Please? :smallredface:

only1doug
2009-09-04, 04:21 PM
:smallconfused: An ex smacked me in the arm once for saying something in a game, and I smacked her back for it. So reverse your initial and the wife smacked the husband...there isn't anything wrong with that though is it? Now say the wife was a former GLOW wrestler and the husband is like Wormser from the Nerds movies.

But since it is a woman hitting a man it would be ok no matter the size difference right?

My Fiancee hits me all the time (slap backhanders to the arm) if she doesn't like something I said, nothing serious, just a little sting and I wouldn't ever consider hitting her back (I'm about twice her size, my revenge is tickling her).

One week during WRFP she slapped the GMs GF in the same way, looks of shock from around the table and quite a lot of teasing followed. She said nothing at the time but was quite frantic with remorse that night and the following day and I'm certain that the incident won't be repeated.

tribble
2009-09-04, 05:13 PM
you don't hit people with a condition like that in the head. Ever. at all. not even a little bit. not even playfully.
why?
the same reason you dont touch people's arm when they're in a cast, ever, at all. you don't know how much you could hurt the person. If it was my cousin we would not be on speaking terms. It was was a colossally immature thing to do and he could have really hurt the kid. not to mention the sheer level of jerkitude involved with touching somebody with such a condition in the head represents.

Kylarra
2009-09-04, 05:15 PM
you don't hit people with a condition like that in the head. Ever. at all. not even a little bit. not even playfully.
why?
the same reason you dont touch people's arm when they're in a cast, ever, at all. you don't know how much you could hurt the person. If it was my cousin we would not be on speaking terms. It was was a colossally immature thing to do and he could have really hurt the kid. not to mention the sheer level of jerkitude involved with touching somebody with such a condition in the head represents.Except he didn't know?

Revlid
2009-09-04, 07:27 PM
Mary, mother of pearl, would everyone calm down?

My take, bulletpointed to avoid confusion and/or misreading:

1. Teenager is ticked off. Fair enough, it happens.
2. Teenager decides to thwap target of ire. "Thwap" in this case referring to a flat-handed impact equivalent to a light cuff upside the head or heavy nudge.
3. Teenager, being a teenager, misjudges his strength, and the thwap becomes a smack.
4. This is exacerbated by the target being much younger than him.
5. The brain condition does not come into judging the Teenager, as it was unknown. It's a factor, but not one that comes into judging his character.
6. The Teenager then apologises and then leaves, later making sure the other party knows that no harm was meant.
7. The target makes it clear that he wants to forgive and forget, and two witnesses to the scene believe the Teenager is genuinely remorseful and meant no harm in the first place.
8. Internet experts proceed to claim that Teenager is a sociopath, that he shouldn't be allowed near the target for another six years, that rumours of child abuse should be spread about him, that he should be physically assaulted and that all his friends should shun him.

Wow. I was going to throw some hyperbole in there for humour's sake, but I realised it really didn't need it.

NorseItalian
2009-09-04, 10:12 PM
Mary, mother of pearl, would everyone calm down?

My take, bulletpointed to avoid confusion and/or misreading:

1. Teenager is ticked off. Fair enough, it happens.
2. Teenager decides to thwap target of ire. "Thwap" in this case referring to a flat-handed impact equivalent to a light cuff upside the head or heavy nudge.
3. Teenager, being a teenager, misjudges his strength, and the thwap becomes a smack.
4. This is exacerbated by the target being much younger than him.
5. The brain condition does not come into judging the Teenager, as it was unknown. It's a factor, but not one that comes into judging his character.
6. The Teenager then apologises and then leaves, later making sure the other party knows that no harm was meant.
7. The target makes it clear that he wants to forgive and forget, and two witnesses to the scene believe the Teenager is genuinely remorseful and meant no harm in the first place.
8. Internet experts proceed to claim that Teenager is a sociopath, that he shouldn't be allowed near the target for another six years, that rumours of child abuse should be spread about him, that he should be physically assaulted and that all his friends should shun him.

Wow. I was going to throw some hyperbole in there for humour's sake, but I realised it really didn't need it.

This. Seriously.

The guy made a mistake. A big mistake, but a mistake none the less. He didn't do anything out of malice, he was just fooling around- and yeah, there are plenty of reasons why he shouldn't have done it but we're talking about A 19 YEAR OLD. He didn't know any better.

Seriously, do you guys ever leave your basements? this kind of thing happens all the time, the only real problem here is that it involved someone much younger (and the head condition, but I suppose some of you have neglected to notice that nobody at the table knew about the condition beforehand), but that doesn't make the offender a "child abuser" who deserves to go to jail. It means that he wasn't thinking and if he doesn't start doing so in the future he's going to run into some real problems.

What is with you people? There was no "assault" here! Nobody was attacked! There's no reason to go all 'burn the witch' over the mistake of a teenager. If hitting someone upside the head as a joke is worth throwing someone in jail, then I should be there as well. My friends and I fool around like that all the time, we've just never had it come to something like this..

The only consequence that this need have (aside from Player A's sworn oath that he will never do anything like that again) is that Player A must reconcile with your cousin. If he can't give a satisfactory apology to make your cousin trust him again (at least trust him enough to game with him: by the sound of things it will take a long time to completely fix the damage) then he shouldn't be allowed to game with him any more. Accident or no, your cousin was the victim here and deserves to be allowed his say.

But the worst possible thing to do would be to follow the garbage that people in this thread seem to believe constitutes good advice: such as essentially ruining a young man's life by having him ostracized and branded and a child abuser for a simple mistake, getting revenge on him, having him arrested/sued, etc. You will be doing more harm then good any I can tell you that someday you will look back and regret it. Also, if your cousin wants to forgive, then LET HIM. What right do you have to keep him from making that decision? He's been hurt and he deserves to have his feelings taken into account. By not doing so you show that you are only pretending that all you do is with his best interests in mind: in reality you are just ticked off and want revenge for yourself.

Get over it.

quick_comment
2009-09-04, 10:22 PM
I think its worth nothing that based upon the eggshell skull doctrine, if you hit someone in the head, and they have some unknown condition that causes your strike to be much more damaging than intended, you are still fully at fault for all the damage. If you kill them, thats murder, not manslaughter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull

This is a legal rule, not a moral one.

NorseItalian
2009-09-04, 10:34 PM
I think its worth nothing that based upon the eggshell skull doctrine, if you hit someone in the head, and they have some unknown condition that causes your strike to be much more damaging than intended, you are still fully at fault for all the damage. If you kill them, thats murder, not manslaughter.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull

This is a legal rule, not a moral one.

That. Means. NOTHING.

Gah, you people are dense. Nobody was killed here! Nobody was injured! The only thing we know is that the kid "might" have gotten a bad headache- we don't even know if he did, we only know that it hurt!

And this isn't about who was at fault legally! This is about whether it's worth pressing charges over a simple mistake that some young punk made. Yeah he's technically at fault, but is it worth doing anything about that? Nobody was harmed, the offender knows what he did was wrong and will certainly not be doing something like that again. What is gained by locking him up? Besides, that example is like the law that says if a car smashes into the back of your car, pushing you into the back of the car in front of you, you are at fault for the second accident. Legally it is true, but did you really do anything wrong? No, it was a freak accident.

This is ridiculous, you are grasping at straws here. Posting random legal snippets doesn't prove a point. If it did, there would be no need for a legal system, the judge would just look up the corresponding law and sentence them accordingly. But sometimes it is important to use something called "logic" and occasionally even "reasoning," something that most of you seem incapable of.

Random832
2009-09-04, 10:47 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull

This is a legal rule, not a moral one.

Linked article claims existence of "a similar doctrine applicable to criminal law", but goes into no detail on it. (That's Wikipedia for you, eh?) I can't find any anywhere else, either.

NorseItalian
2009-09-04, 10:50 PM
Linked article claims existence of "a similar doctrine applicable to criminal law", but goes into no detail on it. (That's Wikipedia for you, eh?) I can't find any anywhere else, either.

Plus the only examples of the law they give are from the late 1800s, with one case in the 1970s which "referenced" the law in a completely different context.

Shadowbane
2009-09-05, 10:07 AM
I'm just going to step in and say that, I'm sorry, but I'm very glad I don't know most of you in real life. If I did, I'd be so scared of making any mistake in front of you I'd never leave my house.

"Oh my gosh! He didn't tuck his shirt in at the concert! DISRESPECTFUL. UNCARING. MURDERER!"

...>.>

mikej
2009-09-05, 10:17 AM
The overeaction here is pretty over the top. It's fairly simple. The older fellow oversteped his bounds, did something really wrong for his age and should apologize for taking the game a little too far by hitting a minor.

It should just be a simple apologize, maybe a sincere handshake and this incident would be best forgotten by everyone in this matter.

Killer Angel
2009-09-06, 03:39 AM
I'm just going to step in and say that, I'm sorry, but I'm very glad I don't know most of you in real life. If I did, I'd be so scared of making any mistake in front of you I'd never leave my house.

"Oh my gosh! He didn't tuck his shirt in at the concert! DISRESPECTFUL. UNCARING. MURDERER!"

...>.>


Well, you know, this is internet. 80% of the posts in these thread were overreactive, and often in an excalation to other post, not on the situation in itself.
I'm pretty sure that, in real life, if directly involved in a situation like this one, with friends and people they know, they will be less extreme in judging.

Shadowbane
2009-09-06, 09:14 AM
Fair enough, I suppose. I just hope the OP does not take their advice.

Achilles
2009-09-06, 09:22 AM
Well, games I've been apart of can get physically violent, and I'm usually the one who accidently hits too hard. But the difference is these are with people my own age and we've all been drinking, so I think its forgivable.

pres_man
2009-09-06, 09:55 AM
Harry Potter: Hey Big D. Beat up another 10 year old?
Dudley Dursley: This one deserved it.

shadzar
2009-09-06, 11:21 AM
Well, games I've been apart of can get physically violent, and I'm usually the one who accidently hits too hard. But the difference is these are with people my own age and we've all been drinking, so I think its forgivable.

Another thing of note, how often are people playing with "kids" these days in all their activities, and how quickly do people remember that they now have a kid around?

If oyu have come accustomed to not being around "kids" and acting a certain way, you cannot expect to change overnight to instantly think you now have a "kid" in your activities.

If everything you do is "kid"-free, then something comes up and has "kids" in it, you aren't likely to quickly recognize the "kids" are there. Likewise with any change to a group mechanic, or sociological microcosm as a group of friends.

Now if everyone always did this activity with "kids" then they would be accustomed to realize right away "kids" are there, so have already tempered themselves to be ready for them.

Say your group of drunk friends all of a sudden had a kid around, they wouldn't be thinking hey its a kid be careful what you do or say....if they had always been drinking around kids ( :smalleek: ) then they might act a bit differently.

So it is another thing to look at in how often everyone does or do not interact with the various age ranges. Maybe not a point of this situation, but one in general people should think of.

Anyone who says everyone should always do things in a kid-friendly manner, needs to make sure to write their politician about closing down all places that sell alcohol, unless those places will also sell them to "kids" as well. It doesn't happen, and all activities are not for "kids" so don't try that.

So since not all activities are for "kids" take note of what happens when the two are introduced to each other, and a normal non-"kid" activity participant comes into contact with kids and acts in a non-kid friendly manner, doesn't mean they are bad, just not normally someone that deals with kids in their daily lives.

*I quoted kids because the age range varies on what a kid is considered. I may have missed a few at the end there. :smallsmile:

Gamgee
2009-09-06, 12:28 PM
Mary, mother of pearl, would everyone calm down?

My take, bulletpointed to avoid confusion and/or misreading:

1. Teenager is ticked off. Fair enough, it happens.
2. Teenager decides to thwap target of ire. "Thwap" in this case referring to a flat-handed impact equivalent to a light cuff upside the head or heavy nudge.
3. Teenager, being a teenager, misjudges his strength, and the thwap becomes a smack.
4. This is exacerbated by the target being much younger than him.
5. The brain condition does not come into judging the Teenager, as it was unknown. It's a factor, but not one that comes into judging his character.
6. The Teenager then apologises and then leaves, later making sure the other party knows that no harm was meant.
7. The target makes it clear that he wants to forgive and forget, and two witnesses to the scene believe the Teenager is genuinely remorseful and meant no harm in the first place.
8. Internet experts proceed to claim that Teenager is a sociopath, that he shouldn't be allowed near the target for another six years, that rumours of child abuse should be spread about him, that he should be physically assaulted and that all his friends should shun him.

Wow. I was going to throw some hyperbole in there for humour's sake, but I realised it really didn't need it.
I agree this is getting quite preposterous. I very much regret making this topic at all.

It's been a few days, and I'm heading back into town in a few hours. So Ill see how the situation has developed. I'm 95% sure my cousins parents are going to forgive the guy if he gives them an apology. I mean he already apologized to my cousin, and it isn't like anyone here is out for blood. Here meaning "in real life". Some people in this thread seem to want more than blood. -_- Silly.

Worse case scenario is that they decide they can't trust him and won't allow him around my cousin for a little while. That's it. If I get one more person suggesting to press charges or worse Ill have the moderators lock this topic.

pres_man
2009-09-06, 06:31 PM
Walmart Employee Slaps 2-Year-Old Child (http://www.dailystab.com/walmart-employee-slaps-2-year-old-child/)

Starbuck_II
2009-09-06, 06:44 PM
I think slapping the kid was wrong, but I'd have no issues if the employer had spanked the kid. Even if it isn't his kid.
Disruptive kids need discipline.

Slapping is not a way to teach discipline.

Gamgee
2009-09-06, 06:55 PM
Okay well here's how this little tale ends. They are going to give Friend A a second chance of sorts. They don't even want an apology to my knowledge or at least they aren't going out of their way for one. They have simply stated the next time he is here they will talk to him about it. The end.

We go back to playing DnD.

They are of course mad, but seem to realize it is an accident. So thus the second chance.

sofawall
2009-09-06, 07:08 PM
I think slapping the kid was wrong, but I'd have no issues if the employer had spanked the kid. Even if it isn't his kid.
Disruptive kids need discipline.

Slapping is not a way to teach discipline.

Wait, slapping does not teach discipline, but it's ok to slap someone on the rear to give them discipline? Is it more disciplining if it's on the bottom?

Well, actually, yes, but only if you teach it that way. To someone who's never been threatened or hit, a slap is the same as a spank.

shadzar
2009-09-06, 08:14 PM
Walmart Employee Slaps 2-Year-Old Child (http://www.dailystab.com/walmart-employee-slaps-2-year-old-child/)

I would have slapped the mother until the child was quiet or removed from the store to stop disturbing everyone in the store.

When a store employee tells you to do something it isn't a suggestion, it is an instruction.

Gamgee: glad it seems things are worked out for you.

1dominator
2009-09-06, 08:34 PM
Okay well here's how this little tale ends. They are going to give Friend A a second chance of sorts. They don't even want an apology to my knowledge or at least they aren't going out of their way for one. They have simply stated the next time he is here they will talk to him about it. The end.

We go back to playing DnD.

They are of course mad, but seem to realize it is an accident. So thus the second chance.

I congratulate you on having a very wise family. If most people were that even minded the world would be a happier place. Although I do have to say that the guy calling friend A a sociopath is.... amusing to say the least.


Walmart Employee Slaps 2-Year-Old Child (http://www.dailystab.com/walmart-employee-slaps-2-year-old-child/)

The amusing part is that the slapping probably did not work, the child quite likely just cried louder.

Thurbane
2009-09-06, 09:09 PM
Okay well here's how this little tale ends. They are going to give Friend A a second chance of sorts. They don't even want an apology to my knowledge or at least they aren't going out of their way for one. They have simply stated the next time he is here they will talk to him about it. The end.

We go back to playing DnD.

They are of course mad, but seem to realize it is an accident. So thus the second chance.
Good result. I hope it all works out for your cousin, friend and gaming group. :smallsmile:

Killer Angel
2009-09-07, 01:47 AM
We go back to playing DnD.
.

I'm happy for all of you. :smallsmile:

Thajocoth
2009-09-07, 02:26 AM
Awesome. Everything back to normal.