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Prax4788
2009-09-04, 06:29 AM
I am makeing a monk in a gestalt game

i need a little help in completing my build
i was thinking of going something like
hexblade/ranger/paladin/occult slayer //monk
mainly for the reason of walking in to mage halls and beating them up with my hands
im in the forgotten realms setting
so nothing from other settings
other than that everything is fair game
so in short whats the best way to make a monk best for max damage
or max defence or max anti spell


please help
and thank you

Kesnit
2009-09-04, 06:41 AM
I am makeing a monk in a gestalt game

hexblade/ranger/paladin/occult slayer //monk

Hexblade and Paladin both rely on CHA. Monks need STR, DEX, and WIS. That's 4 attributes you need to keep high. I would recommend you find a class that uses STR, DEX, and/or WIS to use opposite Monk.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-04, 06:52 AM
What level? Unless it's 13+ the monk class does nothing for you another class couldn't do better (monks are not all that good at beating up mages with their fists). Even then, 13 class levels for spell resistance is a bit expensive.

Jack_Simth
2009-09-04, 07:05 AM
Sorcerer. Take Ascetic Mage (complete Adventurer), and dump Wisdom.

Asheram
2009-09-04, 07:06 AM
If you want a proper shaolin monk, go for the Swordsage monk adaption in Tome of battle. ;)

riddles
2009-09-04, 07:08 AM
either combine it with cleric to get sacred fist or with psion/ardent/psychic warrior and into slayer.

sorceror into abjurant champion would work too.

lord_khaine
2009-09-04, 07:32 AM
I second the Psion/slayer suggestion, with Temporal acceleration you can really pull some cool stuff, like both buffing up and getting into position, before unleashing a flurry of blows.

Prax4788
2009-09-04, 08:29 AM
For my build to work. I can have No spell casting of anykind.
And. The. Monk classes stays. Ali important to me mainly. I'm looking for what to do with my second class progression

Prax4788
2009-09-04, 08:31 AM
either combine it with cleric to get sacred fist or with psion/ardent/psychic warrior and into slayer.

sorceror into abjurant champion would work too.
The rules of gestalt. Say u can't use classes that are. Already clear combos like sacred fist

PinkysBrain
2009-09-04, 08:31 AM
Level? 10ch

Prax4788
2009-09-04, 08:35 AM
Level? 10ch

I'm looking. For a long term build. So level isn't important.

paddyfool
2009-09-04, 09:16 AM
If you have Paladin on the other side of the build, try to get the Serenity feat allowed from Dragon magazine (Paladin class abilities that are normally based on Chr become based on Wis instead). If you want no spell casting, however, Paladin would only give you three levels unless you use the low magic variant. A couple of levels of Fighter are generally not a bad idea for melee builds. Otherwise... well, I don't know what to recommend from ToB, if anything. I also don't know anything about Occult Slayer so I can't really comment on that aspect of your build.

riddles
2009-09-04, 09:27 AM
firstly, apologies for not reading the gestalt rules properly (my group never ever plays with them).

second:

I am makeing a monk in a gestalt game
i was thinking of going something like
hexblade/ranger/paladin/occult slayer //monk
mainly for the reason of walking in to mage halls and beating them up with my hands


For my build to work. I can have No spell casting of anykind.
And. The. Monk classes stays. Ali important to me mainly. I'm looking for what to do with my second class progression

doesn't hexblade have spellcasting? i'm not sure.

thirdly:

so in short whats the best way to make a monk best for max damage
or max defence or max anti spell


For my build to work. I can have No spell casting of anykind.
to max out monk damage requires some form of spellcasting because they need size increases. not only that, if you want to max out your damage and actually get to use it regularly, you need some way of gaining additional movement.

if you can't use spellcasting, can you use psionics? becuase honestly, a psion or psychic warrior going into the prestige class slayer makes monks a heck of a lot better, and i assume the same applies to gestalt monks.

other than that, i second going into paladin and picking up divine might.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-04, 09:36 AM
The. Monk classes stays. Ali important to me mainly.
You can't have full monk levels on one side if you want Paladin levels too ... so Paladin goes then?

Douglas
2009-09-04, 09:38 AM
You can't have full monk levels on one side if you want Paladin levels too ... so Paladin goes then?
Huh? This is gestalt, he can take Monk and Paladin at the same time.

Zincorium
2009-09-04, 09:59 AM
Rules for a fun gestalt build:

1. Do more than one thing (well). Fight, skillmonkey, cast, whatever, don't get stuck in a rut. Gestalt is intended for characters to successfully take on multiple roles.

2. Respect the action economy. Mix a highly passive ability class (monk) with a highly active ability class (say, shapeshifter ranger).

3. Avoid MAD. You get one characters ability scores, but two character's requirements. Don't hurt yourself by avoiding synergy.

4. Optimize. If a Gestalt campaign isn't a TPK waiting for a place to happen, you should be playing non-gestalt characters. Compete with the DM.

5. Be flexible. Don't dismiss ideas just because they're a bit strange.


Anyway, these are my rules, and I've always had a fun character while using them.

woodenbandman
2009-09-04, 10:22 AM
Monk is actually a good choice for a gestalt, because you can have a lot of touch AC for defense against spells. Now you need a wisdom based class to help you out, or...

Monk6/Deepwarden2/Fist of the Forest3//Totemist20

Essential item: ring of spell turning. Preferably 2. All of your AC and touch AC abilities are constitution based, and you have very high unarmed strike damage (assuming monk's belt and superior unarmed strike and junk). And you're a totemist, so you can use soulmelds (call it focusing your ki, that sounds much better).

Essential stats are, in order: Constitution, Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, Intelligence, Charisma. Take Steadfast Determination for real fun.

Signmaker
2009-09-04, 10:50 AM
Hum. Jacking up your saves, are you? Interesting.

Max Damage: Unless you've got a thing against UMD items or party buffs, Greater Mighty Wallop is probably the best 'easy' method of maxing damage. It makes base damage actually worthwhile in discussion, it's that good. Swinging fists of 8d8 and higher is never a bad thing to be doing.

Max Defense: You seem to have saves covered pretty well. You've got monk levels supplying base saves with Hexblade/Paladin levels supplying 2xCha to saves (vs spells anyway). If you can somehow find a way to spontaneously cast 2nd level spells, I second the Ascetic Mage vote.
Nevermind, you don't want casting it seems. Anyway, as for AC...you've got problems. Naturally you want your Dex and Wis to be high, which might be a bit hard to do if you're also juggling Charisma for the saves. This is why, incidentally, that I was going to second Ascetic Mage. It really simplifies stat-choice.

Max Anti-Spell: Methods of blocking Line of Effect or Line of Sight will work best, I suppose. Monk SR isn't particularly useful, especially in gestalt campaigns where it's not a hard thing to boost caster levels. A high touch AC will definitely ward against Touch Spells, though.


Meh. Try your best.

Harperfan7
2009-09-04, 11:37 AM
It may not be what you are looking for, but monk-scout is a damn good combination if you get that item from the equipment guide that lets you do 10ft. adjustments after training. Think about it.

Keld Denar
2009-09-04, 12:06 PM
PsyWar has a LOT of synergy with a monk. Technically, its a Manifester, not a Caster...but you might want to check with your DM about transparency.

That said, Expansion, Grip of Iron, and Psionic Lion's Charge are all pretty amazing for giving your monk the oomph he needs. You'll be a decent grappler, even with only 3/4 BAB. Nab Scorpion's Grasp from Sandstorm so that every hit starts a grapple. Then, attack, hit, grapple, damage, and let go. Repeat for every attack, essentially doubling your size augemented grapple damage. Other feats of note would be Improved Natural Attack, Superior Unarmed Strike, Snap Kick (last 2 from ToB), and Link Power (CPsionic). You might even consider dropping some feats into Illithid Heritage + Illithid Grapple, also from CPsionic, so your face can grapple while you grapple. If you go that far, its only a small step to nab Brain Extraction, fun for the WHOLE family!

http://terry.elka.cz/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/zoidberg-sticker1.png
WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP!!!!

Sir Giacomo
2009-09-04, 12:27 PM
If you want a proper shaolin monk, go for the Swordsage monk adaption in Tome of battle. ;)

Unfortunately there is no useful unarmed swordsage adaptation provided by the ToB, you'd have to ask the DM to houserule it. Too complicated.

I'd suggest the following to the OP:
With no caster class available, go for monk/rogue gestalt.
No MAD to speak of, and you get the great synergy of sneak attacks with the monk's stunning fist attack.

- Giacomo

Signmaker
2009-09-04, 12:31 PM
- Giacomo

Who are you and what have you done with Giacomo? :smalltongue:

wadledo
2009-09-04, 01:25 PM
Unfortunately there is no useful unarmed swordsage adaptation provided by the ToB, you'd have to ask the DM to houserule it. Too complicated.

- Giacomo

What are you talking about?
In the adaptation section, you trade armor proficiency for monk unarmed damage. Pretty simple.

-Obnoxious sig

Keld Denar
2009-09-04, 03:10 PM
Adaptation
<snip>
To create a monklike character with a tremendous array of fantastic moves and strikes, give the swordsage the monk's unarmed strike progression and remove his light armor proficiency.
<snip>


The only thing remotely close to a houserule is to change the Wis to AC from light armor only to light or no armor, which was probably intended anyway. To say otherwise is ludacris, and you of all people should know this, considering your stance on buying partially charged wands...

Faleldir
2009-09-04, 03:38 PM
Also note that "the Monk's unarmed strike progression" includes either nothing at all, because there is no class feature with that exact name, or everything described under "unarmed strike" in the Monk class features.

Prax4788
2009-09-04, 08:55 PM
I should tell u that the only other player in the game is a wizard cleric so he has spell casting coverd

also my dm does not like psionics and devine casting isnt going ot work for me eather


classes that just happen to have spells like hexblade bard paladin are fine

Aneantir
2009-09-04, 10:35 PM
partially charged wands...

I saw "Monk Thread" and a post by Giacomo and was waiting for this to show up. I gave it till at least page 2, apparently I was wrong. :P

Cieyrin
2009-09-04, 11:05 PM
You might even consider dropping some feats into Illithid Heritage + Illithid Grapple, also from CPsionic, so your face can grapple while you grapple. If you go that far, its only a small step to nab Brain Extraction, fun for the WHOLE family!

http://terry.elka.cz/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/zoidberg-sticker1.png
WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP WOOP!!!!

It's too bad Dr. Zoidberg never actually extracted any brains. Not that there seems to be many he'd really want to eat in the year 3000, as none of them even vaguely resemble sardines in appearance or flavor.

Doc Roc
2009-09-04, 11:11 PM
What, precisely, does tashalatora do in gestalt if you have ardent on one side and monk on the other?

Xenogears
2009-09-04, 11:21 PM
What, precisely, does tashalatora do in gestalt if you have ardent on one side and monk on the other?

Either nothing because it counts as a mystic theurge type thing or you get double your level as monk level for unarmed damage?

Prax4788
2009-09-04, 11:28 PM
Ok for consept Psionics is allowed after working with my dm

so i would still dont want to reley on psionic powers but yea hopefull that makes it easyer

Xenogears
2009-09-04, 11:53 PM
Well if psionics are allowed then go for it. Only use the psionics to do self-buffs and it fits good monk fluff too. IE: I use the power of my mind to grow/move faster/ attack more/ etc.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2009-09-04, 11:54 PM
Monk 20 // Warblade 20

All you need to know.

HD: d12
all good saves
full BAB
swift action maneuver recovery :)
Tiger Claw and Iron heart are your friends. 'Specially Iron Heart Surge.

the only thing you can't do (in the core/vanilla DnD) is fly.


If you do this, make sure you take the carmedine monk feat.

Super agreed.

quick_comment
2009-09-04, 11:55 PM
Monk 20 // Warblade 20

All you need to know.

If you do this, make sure you take the carmedine monk feat.

Edit:
Monk 20 is still a bit of a waste though.

Go Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 18//Warblade 20.

Take the tashlatora feat and carmedine monk.

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-05, 12:32 AM
If you do this, make sure you take the carmedine monk feat.

Edit:
Monk 20 is still a bit of a waste though.

Go Monk 2/Psychic Warrior 18//Warblade 20.

Take the tashlatora feat and carmedine monk.

Wow. Somehow, Quirinus_Obsidian managed to ninja quick_comment with his own post.

Somebody has foresight + celerity up.

quick_comment
2009-09-05, 12:36 AM
Wow. Somehow, Quirinus_Obsidian managed to ninja quick_comment with his own post.

Somebody has foresight + celerity up.

Or you know, he edited it. I guess he has an amulet of second chances.

Prax4788
2009-09-05, 12:39 AM
Is are the good saves flurry of blows and unarmed damage worth nothing ?

Doc Roc
2009-09-05, 12:40 AM
Once More With Feeling (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872286/Once_More_With_Feeling_Attacking_the_problem_of_de cidability_in_DnD?num=10&pg=1)!

Because really.

Is are the good saves flurry of blows and unarmed damage worth nothing ?
No, they're wonderful, and worth quite a bit, but open up secrets of sarlona, and take a look into the feats section. There you'll find a feat called Tashalatora, which holds the record for ridiculous names and also excellence in the field of battle.

Basically, lets you do things that are truly beautiful.


And thats not even including the fact that the fighter gets double strength to damage on his weapon, instead of the monk's single strength to damage.

While Q_C lists this last, it's really important. There's almost no good way to make this particular problem go away that I've ever seen.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-05, 12:49 AM
Is are the good saves flurry of blows and unarmed damage worth nothing ?

No, they are not. Here's why:

1) Flurry of Blows ONLY works on a Full Attack. However, you can't get a Full Attack unless you are already adjacent to your opponent. Which means you are already a greasy stain on some mook's weapon, and won't get a chance to flurry.

2) Monks unarmed damage really isn't all that good. Sure, you can use tricks and tips to further increase it to usable levels, but really it's nothing special.

3) Many of a monk's abilities are mutually exclusive. If you take advantage of a Monk's increased speed, for instance, you cannot use Flurry of Blows, because you cannot use a Full Attack in the same round you use a Move Action, barring tactics which you have specifically stated you don't want to use.

Having said that, if you want to go Monk, here's some ways to do it better

1) Start off by pairing it with Fighter for some feats. You will PrC out of Fighter rapidly, but bonus feats = good.

2) Kensai PrC nets you enchantments on your natural attacks. This is a good thing.

3) Weapon Master can choose their unarmed attacks as their favored weapon. This nets you some fun things.

4) the feat Improved Natural Attack can be used to increase the damage of your unarmed attacks.

5) Monk's Belt is always a handy item to increase unarmed damage

6) You will shortly find that you can do pretty much anything that you want to do as a Monk better with some other class.

Monk/Rogue is okay for damage output, as long as you can find a way to consistently apply sneak attack dice. Monk/Paladin mostly sucks due to MAD and both classes being sub-par. Monk/Barbarian is prohibited due to alignment restrictions, same with Monk/Bard. You don't want a caster class. That leaves Fighter, Rogue, and Ranger as the only three classes you may wish to consider to pair with Monk, if you are staying Core.

Personally, I think you and your friend are making huge mistakes. If you went Paladin/Sorcerer (great CHA synergy) and your buddy went Druid/Rogue, you would be a much more balanced and powerful group. You can both take a hit (druid with Wild Shape, and you as Paladin), you can cast Arcane and he can cast Divine. He does the Skillmonkey and sneaking around thing. Everyone is happy.

quick_comment
2009-09-05, 12:53 AM
Unarmed strike damage is really not very good.

A level 1 monk deals 3.5

A level 20 monk deals 11

This is a very small difference.

Now lets take the prototypical fighter with a greataxe.

A level 1 fighter deals 6.5 damage

A level 20 fighter deals 6.5 damage.

So the monk is ahead at level 20, right?
Wrong.
The fighter has 5 extra points of base attack. Lets say he attacks at the same attack bonus as the monk, and puts the 5 points into power attack. He now deals 16.5

And thats not even including the fact that the fighter gets double strength to damage on his weapon, instead of the monk's single strength to damage.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-05, 12:56 AM
Unarmed strike damage is really not very good.

A level 1 monk deals 3.5

A level 20 monk deals 11

This is a very small difference.

Now lets take the prototypical fighter with a greataxe.

A level 1 fighter deals 6.5 damage

A level 20 fighter deals 6.5 damage.

So the monk is ahead at level 20, right?
Wrong.
The fighter has 5 extra points of base attack. Lets say he attacks at the same attack bonus as the monk, and puts the 5 points into power attack. He now deals 16.5

And thats not even including the fact that the fighter gets double strength to damage on his weapon, instead of the monk's single strength to damage.

It gets even worse when paired with Shock Trooper and Leap Attack, getting +60 damage per hit without sacrificing any attack bonus. Toss in Pounce... and there is simply no contest.

All this, plus more hit points, better AC, and less reliance on stat-boosting gear.

Prax4788
2009-09-05, 01:00 AM
Well he is a sorrcer/bonded sumoner //favord soul

so he already has great sinergy bonas both cast with cha

but what about all the feats that let u do a charge attack falled by a full round iseen sevral defrent ones

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-05, 01:14 AM
The problem with gestalting two casting classes is generally that one set of class abilities require actions that prohibit using abilities from the other class (in other words, you only have one standard action each round to cast spells, and you can't cast from spell-list B with the same standard action you just used to cast from spell-list A).

The best way to do gestalt (in general) is to pair one active class (in this case, a spellcasting class) with one passive class (such as monk, factotum, or totemist).

Your particular problem with the monk class is that it's mostly a passive class, and you're trying to use it as an active class. The best abilities are the movement speed, saves, and (if you do things right), the AC bonus. Flurry is okay, but you have to find a way to use it consistently when moving around the battlefield, and you have to add bonus damage to make it worthwhile.

Having monk 2/psychic warrior 18 with Talashtora and Linked Power (from Secrets of Sarlona and Complete Psionic, respectively) paired up with, say, warblade or crusader 20, would be an insane combo, especially if you used swift-action powers Linked with buffs (used sparingly, of course). That way, you can buff without using up rounds in combat, you have lots of bonus feats (and potentially awesome bonus damage), you can make full Power Attacks on a charge when massive damage dealing is needed, and you can use maneuvers for utility and battlefield control. (BTW, here the monk/psywar combo is the 'passive' class pairing, and the crusader or warblade is the 'active' class pairing, though the line does blur a bit more between the two, all things considered).

[edit] Psychic warriors have access to the psionic lion's charge power. It's a swift action that allows you to perform a full attack in the same round as a charge. Bonus damage + full attack + flurry = large amounts of dead things in your wake.

Prax4788
2009-09-05, 01:20 AM
also i need to point out my dm has banned tome of battle
for reason i dont know

flurry isnt worth it is psionic worrior going ot make up for my loss of speed without monk and keeping my hands as deadly weapons

without use of things like claws

also i wanted ot know what if i combined Fotf with doulest
so i add three stats to ac

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-05, 01:26 AM
Psychic warriors are extremely mobile, depending on your build and how you want to play.

They get teleporting powers. They get bonus feats (for mounted combat). They get a psicrystal they can eventually use as a secondary combatant (essentially allowing them to be in two places at once). They make for decent ranged/melee hybrids. They can get their hands on metamorphosis (though research, a feat, or via a mantle - see The Mind's Eye) for flight, burrowing, etc.

Insane speed isn't everything, especially since most characters can do similar things through low-cost magic items (which, ironically, don't stack with the monk's enhancement bonus to speed), races, or feats (see Speed of Thought (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#speedOfThought)).

Tell us what kind of things you want to be able to do, and we can show you how best to do it.

(Also, focusing on AC kinda sucks. Miss chances are where it's at.)

Prax4788
2009-09-05, 01:40 AM
Basicaly i want to be able to go in to a group of mages clerics or anykind of casters

using my knees elbows fists so on so on and no armor

and take them down
the consept he hates magic but psionics is difrent its him mastering his own body

psions passive feats and stuff are kool but im not crazy about psionc powers
i want to master my own body do what

my orignal build was looking at occult slayer and makeing my hands the weapon i defelct attacks with(dm said i could) and things like hexblade and black gaurd for the cha ageast spells

but yea long story short im looking for a mage killing without armor or weapons

Doc Roc
2009-09-05, 01:40 AM
Also, you can use tashalatora with ANY psionic class. I'm a particularly big fan of Ardent, myself.

Prax4788
2009-09-05, 01:41 AM
Also, you can use tashalatora with ANY psionic class. I'm a particularly big fan of Ardent, myself.


ok if someone please tell me whear i find this and what does it do

Demons_eye
2009-09-05, 01:49 AM
Walk into Wizard school A. You will have Inertial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inertialArmor.htm) plus what ever wis to AC you got. Once in the middle say "Inyuk-chuk" and use expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) then use grip of iron (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/gripofIron.htm). Then Grapple the first guy and tear him up! Lets say you got 14 Str and you're level 5 for a +14/+18 (+3 Bab +3 Str +4 Grip of iron +4 Size/+4Improve Grapple) to grapple. See a wizard try to cast in that.

Edit: Tashalatora is found in Secrets of Sarlona

Doc Roc
2009-09-05, 01:59 AM
Secrets of sarlona. Let me find a page cite. Do you think I can reproduce it under fair-use?

Kylarra
2009-09-05, 02:04 AM
Secrets of sarlona. Let me find a page cite. Do you think I can reproduce it under fair-use?
I can give you this much (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070212a&page=5).

Prax4788
2009-09-05, 02:07 AM
I wouldnt risk it if u can tell me book(i see udid) and page ill find it thank u

Prax4788
2009-09-05, 02:21 AM
Walk into Wizard school A. You will have Inertial Armor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/inertialArmor.htm) plus what ever wis to AC you got. Once in the middle say "Inyuk-chuk" and use expansion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/expansion.htm) then use grip of iron (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/gripofIron.htm). Then Grapple the first guy and tear him up! Lets say you got 14 Str and you're level 5 for a +14/+18 (+3 Bab +3 Str +4 Grip of iron +4 Size/+4Improve Grapple) to grapple. See a wizard try to cast in that.

Edit: Tashalatora is found in Secrets of Sarlona

but dosnt things like expansion make my consept mute ?
i mean basic powers of speed and stuff are one thing but at that point im no beter than the mage

Prax4788
2009-09-05, 02:22 AM
I can give you this much (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20070212a&page=5).

that is complete out of the question
its game breaking and my dm wont let me take anything from ebbron

Aneantir
2009-09-05, 07:50 AM
that is complete out of the question
its game breaking and my dm wont let me take anything from ebbron

How, exactly, is it game breaking? It lets you keep all of your fancy monk abilities while still letting you progress in a class that makes you actually viable throughout the game rather than completely front ended.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-05, 08:09 AM
so i would still dont want to reley on psionic powers but yea hopefull that makes it easyer
You need magic of some kind for mobility and a decent array of swift actions, whether it's plain magic, psionics, incarnum or blade magic doesn't really matter ... but one of those you need.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-05, 10:27 AM
Well he is a sorrcer/bonded sumoner //favord soul

so he already has great sinergy bonas both cast with cha

but what about all the feats that let u do a charge attack falled by a full round iseen sevral defrent ones

Actually, he made a classic Gestalt mistake. The best Gestalt character is one who has one form of casting and one side focused on melee. He's basically guaranteed that you won't have enough magic being used because he can only cast one or the other side at once.

He'd have done much better to have let you do one or the other.

However, since we have to work with the cards we are dealt, and with the information you have given me, here's an idea:

You could do the "Kung Fu Bear" by taking the Wildshape Ranger variant to go into MoMF and Wildshaper with your other side being straight Monk. However, I recently found that it isn't as powerful as I thought, as MoMF and Wildshaper do not progress HD cap.

Actually... I have an idea:

Monk//Ranger1/PsiWar/Slayer

It is simple, efficient, and vicious. In effect, you get the psychic abilities of a PsiWar, higher BAB, and all your monk goodness you insist on. Improved Natural Attack on your unarmed attacks then Expansion x 2 for some truly impressive unarmed damage numbers. Here's some needed feats for this:

Power Attack,Improved Bull Rush,Shock Trooper: This lets you trade AC rather than Attack Bonus for Power Attack while charging

Leap Attack: This increases your Power Attack ratio to 3:1

And here's your needed powers:

Expansion: Your very first power you should ever grab. Seriously, it is that good.
Psionic Lion's Pounce. If you get any 2nd level power, get this one. It lets you make a full attack on a charge. See also: Shock Trooper + Leap Attack + Full Power Attack

Long story short: You charge into the middle of casters, and beat them all down.

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-05, 10:00 PM
If you want your fluff to be 'mastery of the body,' then might I suggest (fluff-wise) someone who wishes to transcend the limitations of his body (and those of reality in general, vis-a-vis Buddhism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism)), via shapeshifting/chi-over-matter?

A changeling psychic warrior//monk (or whatever combination of classes you toss on, so long as psywar is the base) who wishes to alter his own body to become the ultimate weapon. Powers such as expansion, bite of the wolf, claws of the beast, and form of doom (and metamorphosis, grabbed from the egoist list) would definitely lean in that direction.

His psi-powers and feats (Speed of Thought (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#speedOfThought), Up the Walls (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#upTheWalls), etc) could easily be flavored to be his breaking the boundaries of reality as he begins his long progression towards eventual divinity. Mixing his claw/bite/kick (see: unarmed strike) attacks with psionic lion's charge, strength of my enemy, etc, could be his means of spiritual and physical transcendence, unleashing 'the beast within my soul.'

Powers that grant more overt abilities, such as dimension swap (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/dimensionSwap.htm) or claw of energy (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/clawofEnergy.htm), could simply be his latent divinity shining through. Other abilities are flavored as using his highly-trained body in extraordinary ways (preternatural awareness to raise his AC and attack bonuses, for instance).

If you want specific ways to be effective, we can help with those, as well.

Prax4788
2009-09-05, 10:47 PM
How, exactly, is it game breaking? It lets you keep all of your fancy monk abilities while still letting you progress in a class that makes you actually viable throughout the game rather than completely front ended.

sorry i was mistaken on how it works


so i most of my build worked out the question is sence im going to have high BaB and good hp ho mater what

should i go psionic worrior or psion

and what is the slayer people keep mentioning

thanks for all the help everyone

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-05, 10:54 PM
Psychic warrior has more Wis-synergy but needs Wis more, while psion needs Int in addition to all the things a monk needs, but needs those bonus pp a bit less. Psywars also get more bonus feats (that you can use on fighter feats, if you like), and get more martial powers, but psions do get more powers and power points.

You could burn a feat on Carmendine Monk to use Int for your monk abilities, I suppose, but that's burning two feats on the build (at least; Carmendine Monk, Talashtora, as well as Linked Power to buff while in combat).

It's a tough call; look over the power lists and see which appeals to your sensibilities more, and see which issues affect you more. Each has its problems you'll have to deal with, but both choices are still pretty awesome all-in-all.

[edit] Also, slayer is a PrC. You can find it here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm). It was originally for slaying illithids, but the mind flayer flavor was removed due to not being OGL-compatible.

Prax4788
2009-09-06, 02:28 AM
Psychic warrior has more Wis-synergy but needs Wis more, while psion needs Int in addition to all the things a monk needs, but needs those bonus pp a bit less. Psywars also get more bonus feats (that you can use on fighter feats, if you like), and get more martial powers, but psions do get more powers and power points.

You could burn a feat on Carmendine Monk to use Int for your monk abilities, I suppose, but that's burning two feats on the build (at least; Carmendine Monk, Talashtora, as well as Linked Power to buff while in combat).

It's a tough call; look over the power lists and see which appeals to your sensibilities more, and see which issues affect you more. Each has its problems you'll have to deal with, but both choices are still pretty awesome all-in-all.

[edit] Also, slayer is a PrC. You can find it here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm). It was originally for slaying illithids, but the mind flayer flavor was removed due to not being OGL-compatible.

As far as i can tell dosnt the important stat for psion change depending on the disaplin u chose

olentu
2009-09-06, 02:34 AM
As far as i can tell dosnt the important stat for psion change depending on the disaplin u chose

That was 3.0 psionics. In 3.5 psions use int, psychic wariors use wis, wilders are cha, and I forgot what the complete psionic classes use.

Edit: Ardent is wis, divnie mind is also wis, and lurk is int. Erudite is also int.

Prax4788
2009-09-06, 03:23 AM
ok looks like psionic worrior is the way for me to go

psiworrior//monk2/hexblade3/ranger2/ and mabey put some doulest in there and occult slayer

Prax4788
2009-09-08, 12:18 AM
bad news my dm now has banned psionics ......

any other ideas ?

Eldariel
2009-09-08, 12:21 AM
bad news my dm now has banned psionics ......

any other ideas ?

...why? Try negotiating with him again? Other than that, well, Cleric goes well with Monk. Sorta like combining the western and the oriental Monk into one class :smallsmile: You would, of course, be the contemplative, thinking kind of Cleric (Cloistered Cleric).

Prax4788
2009-09-08, 12:25 AM
his reason is it dosnt fit in to forgoten realms

so he isnt buddgeing

Eldariel
2009-09-08, 12:30 AM
his reason is it dosnt fit in to forgoten realms

so he isnt buddgeing

...so wait, even with Illithids' prominent position in FR, Psionics somehow doesn't fit? Hell, Salvatore's novels include that Drow-house of Psionics, and Duergar are often Psionic. And then there are various associations amongst the other races.

Hell, there appear to even be records of a Human Psionicists' empire in the history of Faerun. I'd really like to know where your DM is coming from with this. For reference, see: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Psionics


But if Psionics isn't game, use divine magic instead. It fits for a Monk anyhow; maybe that contemplation and meditation actually accomplished something!

Prax4788
2009-09-08, 12:35 AM
but it seems without the psionics there isnt a way t oget the monk build to work .......no way to keep my unarmed damage and flurry up.......

so it looks like this game hates non casters

olentu
2009-09-08, 12:45 AM
his reason is it dosnt fit in to forgoten realms

so he isnt buddgeing

I also find this somewhat strange given that there is a section about psionics in faerun in the players guide to faerun. Page 172 if someone wonders.

Prax4788
2009-09-08, 12:48 AM
well the real problem is the game is tomaro and he just now told me this....

wel one question i would ask is what is the most powerfull spell list

and is there anyway for meto do what i wanted with psionics (hold on to flurry and unarmed damage) with another caster

Eldariel
2009-09-08, 12:50 AM
but it seems without the psionics there isnt a way t oget the monk build to work .......no way to keep my unarmed damage and flurry up.......

so it looks like this game hates non casters

The Monk-class is really made to work best with casting abilities. Hell, it has some casting-like abilities itself and it's all mystical in fluff. Monk needs size increases and swift movement and so on, so in spite of what you said in the OP, I suggest you toss some magic to go with it.

You could also just discuss Psionics again with your DM if casting truly isn't an option, or request some other system that goes well with Monk, such as Incarnum (Totemist!) or Tome of Battle (Swordsage! Or Warblade! Or Crusader!). None of the other melee classes really help the Monk accomplish what he needs accomplished. Other than maybe the Barbarian which is conveniently alignment-barred.


Cleric really fixes all that up nicely. Pick up Travel Devotion-feat from Complete Champion, burn some Turn Undeads to get it many times per day. This allows you to move as a swift action, allowing for you to move and full attack. Then pick up buff spells like Magic Vestment, Mage Armor (it's available in some domain IIRC), Enlarge Person, Divine Favor, Divine Power, Righteous Might, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Holy Star, Recitation, Conviction, Holy Transformation, Lesser Vigor, Visage of the Deity, etc. and put as many of them on you as you can (some have hours/level duration; you can kepe those on constantly).

Then Quicken and cast what you can when you can anticipate encounters and go to town. Among other things, Enlarge Person and Righteous Might increase your size giving you bigger unarmed strikes. If you ever reach level 7 spells and have chosen the Hero-domain, you will be able to cast Giant Size, which makes you Colossal (and gives you +32 Strength. Not making this up), truly skyrocketing your unarmed capabilities. The rest of the spells give you various bonuses. If you invest some feats in Extra Turnings and Divine Metamagic: Persistent Spell, you can have multiple such effects on you at all times.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-08, 06:33 AM
Keeping up unarmed damage with monk isn't that hard.

Monk's belt gives a +5 for damage and AC, Monk's Tattoo +4, Bones of Li-Peng +5 and finally Superior Unarmed Strike gives +4. So basically with 2 levels of monk you can max it out. Also the Ronove Vestige gives you unarmed strike damage equal to your binder level.

Just ask your DM first if he is comfortable with any of the other alternative casting systems (Incarnum, Binding, Blade Magic) if not ... then an arcane or divine gish is your only real choice.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-08, 06:48 AM
One day... one day, someone is going to say their DM banned psionics because it "doesn't fit with the setting".

That setting shall be Eberron.

Faleldir
2009-09-08, 08:12 AM
and is there anyway for meto do what i wanted with psionics (hold on to flurry and unarmed damage) with another caster
Wait a minute. Is this a gestalt game or not? Because you can always take Monk 20 on one side. That's not a problem.

Prax4788
2009-09-08, 09:24 PM
Wait a minute. Is this a gestalt game or not? Because you can always take Monk 20 on one side. That's not a problem.

that was my orignal idea but i kept hearing how "it was a mistake" and "there nothing a monk can do that some else cant do beter"

PinkysBrain
2009-09-09, 07:21 AM
Which is true strictly spoken ... but that's not really relevant to the question of what to use for your magic abilities. That the monk is a bad class is one truth. That you will be weak without magic abilities is another truth.

That you can't use PsyWar has relatively little to do whether or not you want to take full monk levels on one side or not.

As I said though, you don't need it for your unarmed strike damage progression ... enough items to progress that.

only1doug
2009-09-09, 03:50 PM
monk // duskblade

Nice and simple, duskblades full BAB helps monks flurry of blows, duskblade adds casting (sub par casting but still casting), Int based class helps skillpoints, Duskblade can add touch spells to melee attacks....

Human Paragon 3
2009-09-09, 04:08 PM
I second Duskblade. Get Kung-Fu Genius feat to switch your WIS dependency over to INT and you're golden. There's a forgotten realms specific feat that does almost the same thing, if your DM doesn't allow dragon magazine.

quick_comment
2009-09-09, 04:09 PM
I second Duskblade. Get Kung-Fu Genius feat to switch your WIS dependency over to INT and you're golden. There's a forgotten realms specific feat that does almost the same thing, if your DM doesn't allow dragon magazine.

Carmedine monk. It requires belonging to a particular organization, but its strictly better

only1doug
2009-09-09, 04:21 PM
that was my orignal idea but i kept hearing how "it was a mistake" and "there nothing a monk can do that some else cant do beter"

More than 2 levels of Monk is a terrible idea (in terms of game mechanics)... Unless you are playing a gestalt game, then it becomes much more viable. which you are.

deuxhero
2009-09-09, 04:45 PM
?/kensai//Monk/psionic fist/slayer ?

Prax4788
2009-09-10, 10:41 PM
rember im not allowed to use psionics or i would just stick with the psionic worrior

Prax4788
2009-09-10, 10:45 PM
?/kensai//Monk/psionic fist/slayer ?

there two problems with that

1 you can only have prestige class on one side with gestalt
2 im keep asking what is the slayer ? it is short for occult slayer or what


but good idea if i wasnt so limited

Keld Denar
2009-09-10, 11:17 PM
Occult Slayer is in Complete Warrior, and its similar, but not the same as Illithid Slayer, which appeared in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Its available online in the SRD, although WotC's Intelectual Property (Illithid) has been removed from it. Find it here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm).

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-10, 11:28 PM
I still say Unarmed Swordsage is better in every particular than a Monk would be.

Prax4788
2009-09-11, 12:08 AM
Occult Slayer is in Complete Warrior, and its similar, but not the same as Illithid Slayer, which appeared in the Expanded Psionics Handbook. Its available online in the SRD, although WotC's Intelectual Property (Illithid) has been removed from it. Find it here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm).

than i ask wich is the one that i should be looking at

Keld Denar
2009-09-11, 12:57 AM
Most people who just say Slayer are referencing Illithid Slayer, since just plain Slayer is the SRD name for it. If they are referencing Occult Slayer, they usually mention that its Occult Slayer and not just Slayer.

Especially since the build includes other Psionic aspects, its safe to assume Illithid Slayer.

Thats just a minor thing you'll pick up on your own with time, experience, and a little logical thought.

Prax4788
2009-09-11, 06:33 AM
Most people who just say Slayer are referencing Illithid Slayer, since just plain Slayer is the SRD name for it. If they are referencing Occult Slayer, they usually mention that its Occult Slayer and not just Slayer.

Especially since the build includes other Psionic aspects, its safe to assume Illithid Slayer.

Thats just a minor thing you'll pick up on your own with time, experience, and a little logical thought.

Thanks for clearing that up

so is any other good anti magic classes besides hexblade and occult slayer ?

Prax4788
2009-09-11, 06:50 AM
lets say for a sec that my dm dint ban psionics


how would a psionic worrior //monk2/fighter/psion/ ??psion prestige??/ work out

or would a psionic worrior//monk2/hexblade/occultslayer ?

Faleldir
2009-09-11, 10:32 AM
Terrible. A gish can't afford to have two casting stats.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-11, 12:10 PM
ToB is banned, Psionics is banned, Arcane/Divine magic is inappropriate.

So what's left is Incarnum and Soulbinding ... has your DM said if he would allow either of those?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-11, 12:17 PM
Probably not, in all likelyhood.

paddyfool
2009-09-11, 12:37 PM
Given what's banned and what's likely to be banned, and your dislike of casting, how about this to be a pretty scary grappler:

Monk// Half-minotaur (or other cheap large race that you like the fluff for) Fighter X / Warhulk

Alternatively, there's a shapeshifting ranger variant somewhere that could synergise nicely with monk.

Prax4788
2009-09-11, 02:01 PM
Well i have sent him psionics agian and asked he look over it so im hopping he will change his mind

but i rolled my stats in front of him and there 16 16 17 14 14 14

so i think tis safe ot say i can afford to have a little MAD

so i was wondering what if we take advantage of all of this iwth monk on one side for flurry

on the other 3 swash bucler (for int to damage) FotF(stronger unarmed strike plus con to ac) doulest(int to ac) and mabey devine like paladin in there for save cha save bonas ?

so thats like a +10 to ac for a 20 at level 1 ? increase with monk levels plus i can upgrade int and get both ac and damage
any thoughts

only1doug
2009-09-11, 03:57 PM
Well i have sent him psionics agian and asked he look over it so im hopping he will change his mind

but i rolled my stats in front of him and there 16 16 17 14 14 14

so i think tis safe ot say i can afford to have a little MAD

so i was wondering what if we take advantage of all of this iwth monk on one side for flurry

on the other 3 swash bucler (for int to damage) FotF(stronger unarmed strike plus con to ac) doulest(int to ac) and mabey devine like paladin in there for save cha save bonas ?

so thats like a +10 to ac for a 20 at level 1 ? increase with monk levels plus i can upgrade int and get both ac and damage
any thoughts

swashbuckler 3 / Monk 17-(x+y) / FotF x / duelist y // duskblade 20

Str: 16
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 17 (all level based increases to this stat)
Wis: 14
Cha: 14

swashbuckler for Int to damage, Duskblade for spells to damage.

paddyfool
2009-09-11, 05:38 PM
If you're going that way... I'd say Factotum 1 /Swashbuckler 3 / Monk 2 (w. Carmendine Monk) / Factotum 14 // Duskblade 20.

But I still think a War Hulk (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a) build should be fun for a good grappler... even if it is slightly cheesy to use Gestalt to negate the penalty of that +0 BAB.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-11, 05:42 PM
Trying to grapple casters is silly ... unless you are doing it in an AMF.

quick_comment
2009-09-11, 05:48 PM
Trying to grapple casters is silly ... unless you are doing it in an AMF.

You can get the binding enhancement from MiC on your unarmed strike, so when you initiate the grapple you dimensionally bind them.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-11, 06:50 PM
Freedom of Movement.

Amiel
2009-09-12, 02:22 AM
What race are you? and of lesser import, what alignment? If humanoid, I would recommend finding ways to become Monstrous; this is so you can enter Soul Eater, from the BoVD. Quite a handy PrC, to put it mildly.

paddyfool
2009-09-12, 02:50 AM
Another good, simple idea for you:

Monk 20 // Sneak-attack Fighter variant 20
(Or rogue 20... depends how much you want full BAB).

To really make this build work, you'd need to find a way to get Pounce or some other way of moving and full-attacking, and get whatever your DM will allow you to bypass restrictions to Sneak Attack. It could still be good fun, though.

Prax4788
2009-09-12, 07:45 PM
Ok i gotm my build all figured out
no i need to know what feats are important and what are a waste

ok so my build is pretty set my dm is reveiwing psionics agian
so if he bands it agian i am 100% ready to go and if he says its ok i just need feats

so here my question


out of this list what of these feats is most important
Basic:power attack ,cleave, great cleave ,dodge,mobilitys,spring attack,

psionic:up the walls,speed of thought, psicrystal affinity or any others?

i did not include feats that need me to spend a psionic focus

only1doug
2009-09-14, 03:37 PM
Ok i gotm my build all figured out
no i need to know what feats are important and what are a waste

ok so my build is pretty set my dm is reveiwing psionics agian
so if he bands it agian i am 100% ready to go and if he says its ok i just need feats

so here my question


out of this list what of these feats is most important
Basic:power attack ,cleave, great cleave ,dodge,mobilitys,spring attack,

psionic:up the walls,speed of thought, psicrystal affinity or any others?

i did not include feats that need me to spend a psionic focus


Power Attack: very useful, cornerstone of many melee builds

Cleave: can be useful, an extra attack when you kill a foe

Great cleave: limited utility based on game style, how often will you kill more than one enemy in one round? handy if you are often faceing hordes of mooks (weak enemies)

Dodge: pre-requisite for other feats, the most common advice is to use one of the alternate dodge feats that still counts for pre-requisite purposes.

Mobility: extra AC when moving, handy if your plan is to run past the bodyguards and strike directly against the enemy caster.

Spring attack: move, attack, move... limited utility when planning to control the enemy casters (you want to stay with them). No AOO from target but can give AOO to his allies (Casters AOO worry you?)

taltamir
2009-09-14, 05:43 PM
Well i have sent him psionics agian and asked he look over it so im hopping he will change his mind

but i rolled my stats in front of him and there 16 16 17 14 14 14

so i think tis safe ot say i can afford to have a little MAD

so i was wondering what if we take advantage of all of this iwth monk on one side for flurry

on the other 3 swash bucler (for int to damage) FotF(stronger unarmed strike plus con to ac) doulest(int to ac) and mabey devine like paladin in there for save cha save bonas ?

so thats like a +10 to ac for a 20 at level 1 ? increase with monk levels plus i can upgrade int and get both ac and damage
any thoughts

a psionic monk? aka, he is an anime character :)...

I think, if you want to play a wizard or a sorc or a psion, monk is an excellent gestalt for them because:
1. You WANT to gestalt a powerful caster with a powerful tank for max utility.
2. They are the ONLY classes that share the inability to wear any armor...

that being said, I see no reason for gestalt monk + cleric to not also be awesome (for a casting oriented cleric). You wear armor and use a weapon in low levels, at some point you ditch the armor and utilize your monk abilities...
Monks are "total immunity to anything ever... and no damage output or out utility". Which is actually, IMAO, the best "component" of a gestalt with practically anything. Not as contributive to a party though.

mmm.. with the right domain, you can make a monk cleric that:
1. can cast all cleric spells
2. has full BAB (from domain)
3. Has full ref, will, and fort saves.
4. Has SR
5. Has immunity to everything.


Of course... monk + druid (shapeshifter) is the ultimate cheese... I am a now a dragon / large elemental / demon... with +5 ki damage damantiuam natural attacks, SR, immunity to everything, crazy AC, etc etc etc.

Prax4788
2009-09-14, 10:38 PM
than what if this

my compaion has changed his build to duskblade//favordsoul

so i was thinking if i wanted the most power as a caster caster
what would i do and get good healing

druid wizard ?
cleric wizard?

monk/healer//wizard? im open here