Would you create the world?

[Lost Demiurge]

Gentlemen (And ladies too), a question for you.

Imagine that you have the ability to go to a place where there was nothing, nothing but you. Some alternate dimension, some far corner of the existing universe that had been destroyed, or unmade.

Now, further imagine that you have the ability to turn this place, this nothing, into something. You have the ability to make this place into a Universe of its own.

You can spend as much or as little time as you wish on this task, if you undertake it. Time is meaningless here, until you create it. Even then, you don't have to give it full authority over your work. You can custom craft a world or worlds as you like.

No one will ever know that you are the creator, unless you wish them to know this, or give them the ability to learn it in time. No one will ever be able to challenge your creation, unless you make them capable of doing so, or give them the capacity to grow to your power.

You would be the sole maker, unless you decided otherwise. Ultimately, though, all responsibility for the existence of this universe would rest upon YOU.

With all this under consideration and many many more points that I have not raised to consider... The question is this;

Would you create the universe?

[Ravens_cry]

Sure I would. But I would make some changes. Not many, but the first would be to either make the speed of light oh so much faster or just allow some for of FTL, with none of that mind screwing causality issues. As a separate issue, I would allow time travel, as far back as you like, but it would split off to alternate tangents on changes. I would have a steller system almost identical to our own, except Venus would be shrouded with water rather then sulphuric acid clouds over a saturated saline sea and oxygen in the air, replenished by airborne algae like critters. Mars would have a thin, but breathable, atmosphere, with critters just under the dust living on ice and the thin warmth. Earth, I would keep just the same. Except the library of Alexandria would not be burned down.

[SinisterPenguin]

Absolutely.

Why wouldn't you create it? I mean, at very least, it would give you something to do.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Yes, life. Maybe I'll create some.

[Athaniar]

Sure, why not.

[Prime32]

Sure I would. But I would make some changes. Not many, but the first would be to either make the speed of light oh so much faster or just allow some for of FTL, with none of that mind screwing causality issues. As a separate issue, I would allow time travel, as far back as you like, but it would split off to alternate tangents on changes. I would have a steller system almost identical to our own, except Venus would be shrouded with water rather then sulphuric acid clouds over a saturated saline sea and oxygen in the air, replenished by airborne algae like critters. Mars would have a thin, but breathable, atmosphere, with critters just under the dust living on ice and the thin warmth. Earth, I would keep just the same. Except the library of Alexandria would not be burned down.So that's aliens and time travellers. What about espers?

[Mando Knight]

So that's aliens and time travellers. What about espers?

That's the not-so-ambiguously gay exchange student that comes in a little later, when she remembers it. :smalltongue:

[KataraAltinaII]

of course.
I doubt it would turn out the same way this one did, but that would be something I would just have to wait and see about.

[Ravens_cry]

So that's aliens and time travellers. What about espers?
Too intrusive. Do you really want to know your pointy haired bosses innermost soul? Would you want someone to know your soul.
Yes, even that part.

[Ichneumon]

No, I wouldn't create the univerise, at least not as it is now. Even though there is a lot of beauty, happiness and benefit for those living in it, inevitably, unless I would have full total control over everything always, some would be born who are better of non-existent. Think for example about some horribly handicaped children who are most times euthanised hours after they are born. Sure, they are a tiny minority, but I, as creator, would be responsible for their existence, which is a pain. I believe in the basic rights of individuals and that means that I can't bring these babies into existence, whatever the benefit for everybody else might be. Non-existence is not something bad, stopping to exist might be, but, like with those children, it is not.

If however, I would be able to create a world, completely to my liking, I would create one based on mathematics. Monochrome in colour and perceptiveness. No sun would "move around the sky", but perpetual "arcs of light" brighten a dark monochrome sky. Earth would be mostly flat, with the surface consisting of a seemingly endless hex grid. Some hexes would be elevated, showing slight discolorations. These would be the birth places of the inhabitants of the world. These "citizens" would have no true material form, only coördinates, they would all perceive exactly the same at all time and hear the thoughts of every other creature in the univirse. These creatures would spawn semi-randomly from these special grids and start on a endless journey to away from their spawning-point, singing their philosophical thoughts.

These creatures would be intelligent, yet have no physical desires, only psychological mental ones. They would be able to communicate with each other all around the world and have debates, far faster than any vocal language would allow them to, because they can read and predict the thought processes of others.

The how my world would look like.

[Ravens_cry]

No wonder your not satisfied with the universe, your paradise is a world so linear, so defined. It has none of the messiness of this world.
I see a distinct lack of sunsets.

[Nameless]

No, I wouldn't create the univerise, at least not as it is now. Even though there is a lot of beauty, happiness and benefit for those living in it, inevitably, unless I would have full total control over everything always, some would be born who are better of non-existent. Think for example about some horribly handicaped children who are most times euthanised hours after they are born. Sure, they are a tiny minority, but I, as creator, would be responsible for their existence, which is a pain. I believe in the basic rights of individuals and that means that I can't bring these babies into existence, whatever the benefit for everybody else might be. Non-existence is not something bad, stopping to exist might be, but, like with those children, it is not.

If however, I would be able to create a world, completely to my liking, I would create one based on mathematics. Monochrome in colour and perceptiveness. No sun would "move around the sky", but perpetual "arcs of light" brighten a dark monochrome sky. Earth would be mostly flat, with the surface consisting of a seemingly endless hex grid. Some hexes would be elevated, showing slight discolorations. These would be the birth places of the inhabitants of the world. These "citizens" would have no true material form, only coördinates, they would all perceive exactly the same at all time and hear the thoughts of every other creature in the univirse. These creatures would spawn semi-randomly from these special grids and start on a endless journey to away from their spawning-point, singing their philosophical thoughts.

These creatures would be intelligent, yet have no physical desires, only psychological mental ones. They would be able to communicate with each other all around the world and have debates, far faster than any vocal language would allow them to, because they can read and predict the thought processes of others.

The how my world would look like.

That's... really depressing and seems kind of pointless actually. :/

[Ichneumon]

That's... really depressing and seems kind of pointless actually. :/

That's interesting, what do you see as the "point" of the real universe then?

[Nameless]

That's interesting, what do you see as the "point" of the real universe then?

Well, in our universe there’s happiness and sadness, desires and the unwanted, love and hate etc. Opposites. “Good and bad” (I don’t mean as in “Good and Evil”). These opposites, along with the imperfection, emotions, instincts and uncertainty is what makes the world an interesting place. It makes us work for what we want, rather then everything just being there for us. If we had nothing to live for, nothing to anticipate or want our bodies might just give up. The point of this world -or at least for me- is to try and get what I want and find the enjoyment. In your world, everything is just too perfect, too simple and there’s nothing unusual or interesting about it. It’s just perfection to the point of boredom. It’s like when you play an RPG video game, and you get all the cheats to get you everything you need/want. Then what? It’s boring once you have that because there’s nothing to work for.
In your world, you would think that your “intelligent” beings would be happy. But how can the experience happiness if they don’t understand what sadness is? It becomes pointless. At least in this word we don’t know if there’s a point to life or not, that on it’s own gives our lives a point.

[Thanatos 51-50]

Yes, I would create the Universe, or A universe. And you know what? I'd play dice with it. Let the Hand-off approach reign! Beauty and ugliness are relative, and it's best to leave things to chance.

Or we miss the Dance.
/shameless Garth Brooks rip-off

[Grey Paladin]

In a world where all creatures are absolutely logical there is no point for debate or philosophy - for such to exist you must create some of these creatures with inherently flawed logic, which is no different than a severely handicapped person in our world in regards of suffering - not to mention a source of endless conflict.

Beside, with nothing else in existence what could these creatures possibly discuss but their own abstract constructs?

[Ichneumon]

In a world where all creatures are absolutely logical there is no point for debate or philosophy - for such to exist you must create some of these creatures with inherently flawed logic, which is no different than a severely handicapped person in our world in regards of suffering - not to mention a source of endless conflict.

Not necessarily, some philosophical ideologies. are perfectly consistent in itself, yet are in conflict with other idealogies.


Beside, with nothing else in existence what could these creatures possibly discuss but their own abstract constructs?

This might indeed be a problem. I'd have to find a sollution to that.

[Ichneumon]

In your world, you would think that your “intelligent” beings would be happy. But how can the experience happiness if they don’t understand what sadness is? It becomes pointless. At least in this word we don’t know if there’s a point to life or not, that on it’s own gives our lives a point.

Maybe not being unhappy is the perfect state then, a state without suffering? They wouldn't know their purpose any more then we do and isn't it ironic or even inconsistent to believe that life has a point mainly because it hasn't?

[Mystic Muse]

No, I wouldn't create the univerise, at least not as it is now. Even though there is a lot of beauty, happiness and benefit for those living in it, inevitably, unless I would have full total control over everything always, some would be born who are better of non-existent. Think for example about some horribly handicaped children who are most times euthanised hours after they are born. Sure, they are a tiny minority, but I, as creator, would be responsible for their existence, which is a pain. I believe in the basic rights of individuals and that means that I can't bring these babies into existence, whatever the benefit for everybody else might be. Non-existence is not something bad, stopping to exist might be, but, like with those children, it is not.

If however, I would be able to create a world, completely to my liking, I would create one based on mathematics. Monochrome in colour and perceptiveness. No sun would "move around the sky", but perpetual "arcs of light" brighten a dark monochrome sky. Earth would be mostly flat, with the surface consisting of a seemingly endless hex grid. Some hexes would be elevated, showing slight discolorations. These would be the birth places of the inhabitants of the world. These "citizens" would have no true material form, only coördinates, they would all perceive exactly the same at all time and hear the thoughts of every other creature in the univirse. These creatures would spawn semi-randomly from these special grids and start on a endless journey to away from their spawning-point, singing their philosophical thoughts.

These creatures would be intelligent, yet have no physical desires, only psychological mental ones. They would be able to communicate with each other all around the world and have debates, far faster than any vocal language would allow them to, because they can read and predict the thought processes of others.

The how my world would look like.

there are unfortunately a few problems with this Ichneumon.By being able to hear the thoughts of every other sentient being your mind would explode. THeir brains would have to be EXTREMELY efficient and it doesn't seem like that amount of detail is allowed by the OP's question.

I'm assuming by control over everything always you mean control over the sentient beings on the planet as well. If control over every sentient beings action IS the case then the problem is that without the possibility to be evil there is no such thing as good. plus taking away free will is something only the worst Tyrants would do.

also Life is only pointless if you believe it to be. Unfortunately it seems you do.

me personally? I don't know. This is different than the other situation where you're denying being who already exist the right to exist. While there is much good in the world the world is also very screwed up in some places. I'd have to think a LOT before choosing to do this.

[Helanna]

I would most definitely create a world. Probably several worlds, all of which contain different experiments with physics and geography and whatnot.

I would also create life, and basically use it as the largest Sim game ever. I wouldn't directly control their actions (that's no fun at all), I'd just control their situations. With lots of choices for everyone, so nobody is forced to do something. Plus lots of different experiments. For example, what would a world be like if guns were never invented? It'd be fun to find out. Or if humans had, say, claws.

[Nameless]

Maybe not being unhappy is the perfect state then, a state without suffering? They wouldn't know their purpose any more then we do and isn't it ironic or even inconsistent to believe that life has a point mainly because it hasn't?

They wouldn't benot unhappy. Unless they're some sort of drones or something no intelligent they would be completely bored, so they would be unhappy.

[Mystic Muse]

If we had the control Ichneumon is suggesting I'd simply prevent them from ever inventing guns or bombs or anything like that.

[UncleWolf]

Earth, I would keep just the same. Except the library of Alexandria would not be burned down.

Win. :smallbiggrin:

[Grey Paladin]

I think creating life is unethical. Once Life exists the only way to 'cancel' your creation is through snuffing it out. Once you give the gift of sapience forcing your will upon your creation is wrong.

What if your children act against your morals? you made them as they are and so their deeds are your own. Will you end them for a mistake you made?

If you do not give your children free will, then all of their suffering and failures are your fault and you are no benevolent deity.

The only course is to make a world where happiness and victory are the only options, and where your creations have no choice but to be happy - but what superiority does existence has to the void, aside from being more interesting? Is the existence of a happy individual greater in value than the lack of existence of the same being? (Mind you, I am referring to that creature never being created in the same place - Life is preferable to death).

Is your amusement reason enough for the existence of millions of lives?

[Nameless]

I think creating life is unethical.

Sooo... Reproducing is unethical? :smallconfused:

[Ichneumon]

there are unfortunately a few problems with this Ichneumon.By being able to hear the thoughts of every other sentient being your mind would explode. THeir brains would have to be EXTREMELY efficient and it doesn't seem like that amount of detail is allowed by the OP's question.

If I am not able to do it, I am of course, not able to do it. I also said that it might not be fully in line with the limits the OP has set for us, when I made this suggestion of a world.


I'm assuming by control over everything always you mean control over the sentient beings on the planet as well. If control over every sentient beings action IS the case then the problem is that without the possibility to be evil there is no such thing as good. plus taking away free will is something only the worst Tyrants would do.

I am not sure I actually ment saying I would force them to think in a certain way, however I am not sure not giving them a free will is actually bad. Certainly, not letting somebody express his free will, like Tyrants in our world do, is wrong. I am not sure I need a good or evil in the first place, in fact they don't need a good or evil.


also Life is only pointless if you believe it to be. Unfortunately it seems you do.

What is wrong with believing life is pointless? Especcially if you just agree that you only make yourself believe it has a point, than of what possible use could "having a point" be?


This is different than the other situation where you're denying being who already exist the right to exist. While there is much good in the world the world is also very screwed up in some places. I'd have to think a LOT before choosing to do this.

I never said this was the same situation as the other thread. It is clearly not. It is however, quite similar.


They wouldn't benot unhappy. Unless they're some sort of drones or something no intelligent they would be completely bored, so they would be unhappy.

What if I make sure they stop existing before they get unhappy or get a "reset", so they can start again with the discussions without ever feeling "done" or "empty".

[Mystic Muse]

The only course is to make a world where happiness and victory are the only options, and where your creations have no choice but to be happy

I

If happiness and victory are the only options then both are as meaningless as can be.

[Nameless]

What if I make sure they stop existing before they get unhappy or get a "reset", so they can start again with the discussions.

Or you could just try making a world with happiness.

[Mystic Muse]

[QUOTE=Ichneumon;6861850]
What if I make sure they stop existing before they get unhappy?/QUOTE]

that's even more evil than making sure life on this world never existed in the first place. It's equivalent to this.

"oh my son is about to be unhappy. I have to shoot him before he is."

If you want a reset button just don't make the life in the first place.

[Avilan the Grey]

That's interesting, what do you see as the "point" of the real universe then?

Life. Randomness. Uniqueness. Chance. Music. Life. Sadness. Joy. Darkness. Light. A billion billion possibilities. A billion billion solutions. A billion billion questions. No single answer. Life.

Yes I would create the universe. In fact, it is now my goal in life.

[Ichneumon]

that's even more evil than making sure life on this world never existed in the first place. It's equivalent to this.

"oh my son is about to be unhappy. I have to shoot him before he is."

If you want a reset button just don't make the life in the first place.

Why would that be the equivalent? My son IRL has an interest in continuing to live, here I would just make sure it's a natural part of who these creatures are. That they life their entire lives fulfilled and happy and die when they can't be happy anymore.

[Grey Paladin]

If happiness and victory are the only options then both are as meaningless as can be.

A meaningless universe can be more benevolent than a malicious world full of purpose.

In the hypothetical Happyverse all living beings existing in a constant state of joy and euphoria does not makes their feelings any less real - they did not have to fight for them and they are not rare (unlike in our world - which is what makes us value them more) but that does not reduces their worth or function.

[Avilan the Grey]

Why would that be the equivalent? My son IRL has an interest in continuing to live, here I would just make sure it's a natural part of who these creatures are. That they life their entire lives fulfilled and happy and die when they can't be happy anymore.

Without sadness, would there be true happiness?

[Quincunx]

I'm assuming that we are limited to one creation and not many. I'd've preferred many, the better to cross-pollinate others. I like cultural cross-pollination and the first blush of contact leading to unforeseen beauty. Yes, I would create the world if and only if I had no further responsibility towards creation. There are lessons to be learned in the vacuum of the self, but those lessons can be learned by hermitage, by separation from the world--the world needn't not exist to learn them--whereas the lessons and the beauties of the world are only going to exist if the world exists.


. . .What if your children act against your morals? you made them as they are and so their deeds are your own. . .

Gap of logic here. We don't own children or creations. We don't even own the interpretations of our art. If someone reads the story of a sunset (yes, this metaphor will be worn ragged before these discussions are over--apologies to Ravens_cry) and is disgusted, Ravens_cry is not responsible for the reaction to a quality not embedded in the original work. A mother can bask in the reflected glow from a warm-hearted daughter, but that doesn't give the mother any credit for being warm-hearted herself.

Make no mistake, I liked your analysis of the duties of life, but the view of owning created life has been overturned.

[Grey Paladin]

Without sadness, would there be true happiness?

In a Binary system all values can be set to 1.
0 exists but it is impossible to reach it.
The values are still 1, despite no 0 in sight.

[Ichneumon]

Without sadness, would there be true happiness?

Yes, I believe there would be. As long as you're not bored and feel challenged and feel like you can truely express yourself to the fullest of your capability. That's why I would create the philosophical discussion. So they can feel fullfilling.

It wouldn't really be like murdering my own son, if you want to use such a metaphore. It would be more like making sure my son dies naturally when he isn't happy anymore.

[Quincunx]

Without sadness, would there be true happiness?

Yes. There might not be rare happiness, but some things don't need to be rare to be valuable. (Same as Grey Paladin above, but in words instead of numbers.)

[Ichneumon]

After rereading the OP's original post, I also don't think my world would be outside limits of what would be possible in the given situation. My world is quite "different", but not off topic and quite what the OP was asking for.

[shadow_archmagi]

I would not create this universe because I do not know enough about it

It would be like me trying to make a car out of scrap metal; I only have a vague idea of the basic principals so at best I could make something that served the same purpose.

[Lost Demiurge]

Ah, now remember... There are no limits to your creation in this scenario. You may have exceedingly strict laws of physics, or you may have a universe where the planets are alive, and gravity alters depending on how happy or depressed they are at any given time.

Or for that matter, you may have different parts of the universe have different laws.

Or you may have no laws.

But I digress...

Many have leaped to create, and this makes me smile. This is my decision too, though that is only my personal choice.

Some, however, hesitate. This is good as well. Stephen King wrote a book called "On Writing", and it had a very good line of advice within it. His advice? "Do not go lightly to the blank page". Be careful what you write, treat it with respect. Words are power. CREATION is power. Handling that much power so lightly? That can lead to serious problems.

A few would not, under any circumstances. This is a perfectly valid choice, but I cannot comprehend it myself. Nonetheless, I do not need to. If it is your choice, then be well and good luck.

Now, let us extend the scenario...

[Avilan the Grey]

In a Binary system all values can be set to 1.
0 exists but it is impossible to reach it.
The values are still 1, despite no 0 in sight.

Well, that would require a binary universe then, wouldn't it? I would aim for more of a base 10 version. Not only black and white, or grayscale, but auburn, leaf green, royal purple and hundreds of other colors.

[Mystic Muse]

It wouldn't really be like murdering my own son, if you want to use such a metaphore. It would be more like making sure my son dies naturally when he isn't happy anymore.

which is just as cruel. In this case your son will live a few days at most and life is not easy to create. or at least not easy enough to make that worthwhile.

[Keshay]

I am not capable of the level of love necessary to create a universe and let it to its own devices, espically in the case of sentient beings.

A creator needs to love the entirety of his creation, not just the complex chemical/electrical arrays that have come to be able to pereceive, reproduce and wonder at thier existance.

Every iota of creation needs to be loved, from a quark to a cluster of a billion billion galaxies. No one portion of the creation could be special to me, but I fear that I could not ignore those ugly bags of mostly water.

I fear I would not be capable of loving a portion of my creation that was not perfect according to my definition of the term. However, without granting said creation a portion of self-determination, what would be the point of creating in the first place. It would be like masturbation or watching a movie you've seen a hundred times already. Sure it might be fun, but it is not challenging, does not enrich anything, and can not ultimately benefit the participant.

I hope that one day I might fell I were able to love in this way, but as it stands I am not that person.

[Ravens_cry]

In a Binary system all values can be set to 1.
0 exists but it is impossible to reach it.
The values are still 1, despite no 0 in sight.
Life ain't binary like that, otherwise, western civilisation would the happiest ever. Conversely, if Rousseau was right, and life were binary, the isolated tribes of Papua New Guiana would be in a state of constant bliss, or close to it.
Neither are true. People, at least human people, base their happiness on what they see around them, on their world. Ichneumon's modrons could theoretically be without this feature, but it is a frightening thought that in Ichneumon paradise an ordinary human would be defective.

[Avilan the Grey]

Some, however, hesitate. This is good as well. Stephen King wrote a book called "On Writing", and it had a very good line of advice within it. His advice? "Do not go lightly to the blank page". Be careful what you write, treat it with respect. Words are power. CREATION is power. Handling that much power so lightly? That can lead to serious problems.

I honestly do not see the problem here (for me). I am a mediocre writer and a lousy painter, but in a situation where I can literary create directly with my brain; when all the colors, pictures, sounds and smells I would love to put on paper, or on canvas, can just... form, effortlessly, I think I would do just fine.

[Grey Paladin]

Quincunx: You are logically correct, but something here still disturbs me.

If I forge a sword and a man later uses that sword to commit a murder, that is not my fault. However, in a universe where the capacity for such wrong-doings does not inherently exists, is bringing it into creation in the first place and thus causing evil through offering the option my fault?

In both cases I am just the enabler.


EDIT:

On Binary stuff: It was but a metaphor used to explain how an object or a state can exist without the opposite used to define it being present in the system.

[Lost Demiurge]

PART II

Alright. So you've got your universe going. Things are working the way you want them to. But something catches your attention.

It turns out you were NOT alone. You were NOT the sole creator. You ability to sense the other creators was simply limited until you finished your initial creation. Now your universe exists next to others.

Now you can sense and communicate with the other creators. It MIGHT be possible to do other things to/with them, but you won't know until you try.

And some of the other creators designed their universes to grow and/or expand. They'll be mingling with your universe eventually.

Oh, and some of the species designed by the other creators have the imagination, drive, or innovative ability to one day travel to other universes, including yours.

Now what? What do you do, creator?

[Keshay]

Is this a topic that's actually about Spore?

[Quincunx]

I still say no, and comfortably. Now that you've asked me to think about it, I'll also add that I am assuming free will without questioning whether or not I have any power to intercede after creation (requested not to have it yes, but is it nonetheless there?).

Further dialogue on my end will have to be tabled for days at best--packing up the computer now. :smallfrown: I'll get back here soon as I can and answer any outstanding points.

[Avilan the Grey]

Quincunx: You are logically correct, but something here still disturbs me.

If I forge a sword and a man later uses that sword to commit a murder, that is not my fault. However, in a universe where the capacity for such wrong-doings does not inherently exists, is bringing it into creation in the first place and thus causing evil through offering the option my fault?

In both cases I am just the enabler.


It's not only the swords. It's the bat'leths and whatever else the inhabitants of a billion worlds would invent. :smalltongue:

[Ravens_cry]

On Binary stuff: It was but a metaphor used to explain how an object or a state can exist without the opposite used to define it being present in the system.
And I say that it fails as a metaphor because humans don't work like that. If it's all ones, we designate a lesser one as the new zero. Conversely, we seek a higher one as a new wanted state. We are much more analogue then digital.

[Avilan the Grey]

PART II

Alright. So you've got your universe going. Things are working the way you want them to. But something catches your attention.

It turns out you were NOT alone. You were NOT the sole creator. You ability to sense the other creators was simply limited until you finished your initial creation. Now your universe exists next to others.

Now you can sense and communicate with the other creators. It MIGHT be possible to do other things to/with them, but you won't know until you try.

And some of the other creators designed their universes to grow and/or expand. They'll be mingling with your universe eventually.

Oh, and some of the species designed by the other creators have the imagination, drive, or innovative ability to one day travel to other universes, including yours.

Now what? What do you do, creator?

Now this is an entirely different game. Not sure if I am playing at all, on this field.

[Lost Demiurge]

Now this is an entirely different game. Not sure if I am playing at all, on this field.

Yes. It IS an entirely different game. You didn't know it when you entered into it, but this is the course of it and here you are.

And here is your Universe.

Would you care to depart from your vantage point? Leave your Universe behind to adapt in whatever way it will?

[Avilan the Grey]

Yes. It IS an entirely different game. You didn't know it when you entered into it, but this is the course of it and here you are.

And here is your Universe.

Would you care to depart from your vantage point? Leave your Universe behind to adapt in whatever way it will?

No of course not. Especially since I would have designed it to expand.

[Lost Demiurge]

Is this a topic that's actually about Spore?

Hadn't planned it that way, but you never know. We'll see where people take it.

[Ichneumon]

PART II

Alright. So you've got your universe going. Things are working the way you want them to. But something catches your attention.

Interesting questions, what would I do...

I'm now going to assume my universe does consist of these almost computer like intelligence's who only exist to debating with others and feeling fullfilled doing so. Like I've described in my previous posts. I'll try to answer your questions as well as I am able.


It turns out you were NOT alone. You were NOT the sole creator. You ability to sense the other creators was simply limited until you finished your initial creation. Now your universe exists next to others.

This would frighten me as my world would be perfect without any intervention and possible intervention might, theoretically, trigger a chain reaction and cause my perfectly happy creatures to be unhappy or somehow brake everything. I don't know how yet, but I would think it is possible.


Now you can sense and communicate with the other creators. It MIGHT be possible to do other things to/with them, but you won't know until you try.

I would not try to communicate with them without trying to observe them, trying to find out how they would "rule" or "organise" their world. I hope to find out this way if they are a threat to the peace of my universe. Maybe I could help them, convince them of my own way of univerise perfection. Forcing them to make their worlds as mine is not outside of the realm of options, although I might view it as impossible or unethical, depending on the exact circumstances. So, my first reactions would be scout and diplomaticy/friendship.


And some of the other creators designed their universes to grow and/or expand. They'll be mingling with your universe eventually.

I would want to have a deal with the creator of that world, making sure they don't intrude on my perfect world.


Oh, and some of the species designed by the other creators have the imagination, drive, or innovative ability to one day travel to other universes, including yours.

I would view this as a great way to increase happiness and try to make/re-design my world in such a way that every intruder would "become like" my computer-philosophers. Perfect and happy. I might also try to create something that "lures" the creatures of the other worlds to trying to enter my world, making more of them "perfect and happy".

Is this what you wanted? What happens next?:smalltongue:

[Grey Paladin]

I rejected Creation in the first place in fear of harm coming to my children.

Assuming I would be unable to resist (there is no greater joy), then it would now depend on my own power when compared to that of the other creators and/or worlds. If I held the power to do so then it would now become both my purpose and duty to help and bring happiness to all sapient life, disregarding the wishes of their creators.

If possible, I would close my universe to outside intrusion.

[Lost Demiurge]

Is this what you wanted? What happens next?:smalltongue:

Oh, I don't really want anything beyond some good discussion. And so far you guys have NOT disappointed! :smallbiggrin: Fascinating ideas here...

Gonna hold off on the next part of the scenario, until we get a few more folks chiming in, I think. Only fair to let people have their say, since we've got a whole bunch of young universes bumping about right now.

EDIT: Quick note... If anyone wants to ignore me advancing the scenarios and focus on talking about the issues of the original post, go right ahead. I'm just experimenting a bit, here.

[Ravens_cry]

PART II

Alright. So you've got your universe going. Things are working the way you want them to. But something catches your attention.

It turns out you were NOT alone. You were NOT the sole creator. You ability to sense the other creators was simply limited until you finished your initial creation. Now your universe exists next to others.

Now you can sense and communicate with the other creators. It MIGHT be possible to do other things to/with them, but you won't know until you try.

And some of the other creators designed their universes to grow and/or expand. They'll be mingling with your universe eventually.

Oh, and some of the species designed by the other creators have the imagination, drive, or innovative ability to one day travel to other universes, including yours.

Now what? What do you do, creator?
I would greet the creators and compare notes, ask if about their inspirations, and ooh and awe over what they hath wrought. Hopefully, and I might egg things along with a few successive avatars, my own creation has built itself into a space fairing civilisation by then. Not yet star fairing, but certainly going in that direction. I would definitely insert an avatar at the time of meeting between the universes, just to help smooth things over, I don't want inter-cosmos war on my hands. And I would stay, far, far away from Ichneumon.
I don't mean that as an insult, Ichneumon, I just find your paradise to be very different from my world.

[Cobra_Ikari]

No. I would not create the world.

I would create Raven and give away my world-creating powers. I have faith that things would come out prettier that way. =P

[Ichneumon]

And I would stay, far, far away from Ichneumon.
I don't mean that as an insult, Ichneumon, I just find your paradise to be very different from my world.

I don't see this as an insult either. We, as far as I can see, just happen to have fastly different philosophies, which would most likely collide.

[Lost Demiurge]

No. I would not create the world.

I would create Raven and give away my world-creating powers. I have faith that things would come out prettier that way. =P

Wow!

So you'd create a sub-contractor diety and tell them to get to it? That's pretty funny to me, actually... :)

[Bellepheron]

Tough question. Obviously we all know what we have now and what we would miss if the universe didn't excist. But would we know if there was nothing and we had the option to create something? I don't know if I could handle the power. Would become a dictator!

Bwahahahha make me noodles! the longest ever! And then, dance monkey dance!

[Cobra_Ikari]

Wow!

So you'd create a sub-contractor diety and tell them to get to it? That's pretty funny to me, actually... :)

Funny...or GENIUS? =O

[Ichneumon]

I also would not be afraid to have my creatures learn about the other worlds, as those are just other things to philosophize about.

However, because they lack the ability to go there, (at least in the way as I originally created them as they have no physical form, not sure if this limits their trans-universal movement) they might become unhappy, which might ruin the discussion as it might trigger a constant "rebirth"-pandemic, which would be difficult to stop, as the discussion would "crash" when each individual, seconds after being reborn, becomes unhappy after joining in the discussion realising they would never be able to go to these worlds. Because they would hear all the thoughts of everybody in the system, just glancing at the discussion might be enough to make them unhappy, crashing my entire universe.... This is not good...

EDIT: A possible sollution might be to prevent the news from these other worlds from coming to my creatures. I'd have to erase the memory of the aliens who enter the world and some more things...

[Mystic Muse]

I also would not be afraid to have my creatures learn about the other worlds, as those are just other things to philosophize about.

However, because they lack the ability to go there, (at least in the way as I originally created them as they have no physical form, not sure if this limits their trans-universal movement) they might become unhappy, which might ruin the discussion as it might trigger a constant "rebirth"-pandemic, which would be difficult to stop, as the discussion would "crash" when each individual, seconds after being reborn, becomes unhappy after joining in the discussion realising they would never be able to go to these worlds. Because they would hear all the thoughts of everybody in the system, just glancing at the discussion might be enough to make them unhappy, crashing my entire universe.... This is not good...

EDIT: A possible sollution might be to prevent the news from these other worlds from coming to my creatures. I'd have to erase the memory of the aliens who enter the world and some more things...

I have a better solution Ichneumon. instead of your race being able to hear the thoughts of every other sentient being why don't you just make it so that they can only hear the thoughts of each other? It takes away the chance they'll become unhappy. you could also make your planet have a defence where anybody who approached it wouldn't find it.

I still don't advocate this "perfect world." and I never will. I just thought I'd help.

[Ichneumon]

I have a better solution Ichneumon. instead of your race being able to hear the thoughts of every other sentient being why don't you just make it so that they can only hear the thoughts of each other? It takes away the chance they'll become unhappy. you could also make your planet have a defence where anybody who approached it wouldn't find it.

Mmmm, possible. I however, didn't want to make something as it feels like "cheating" so I assumed I wasn't able to do that, making the planet unfindable. (As that would defeat the senario, kinda). However, only hearing each other might indeed work. Thanks!


I still don't advocate this "perfect world." and I never will. I just thought I'd help.

Thanks, I understand this isn't your "perfect world" and therefore you don't support it.

[Grey Paladin]

Since I've never specifically described my world, I'll do so now.

The world would be an endless plane that warps back unto itself (think of a Moebius strip), constantly getting expanded through the wishes of its only sapient race. This race is composed entirely of shapeless immortal creatures incapable of evil and causing harm to one another. They possess free will, feelings, and senses, as well as the power to dictate their own form and that of the land.

I shall populate the initial world with a landscape of my creation, but at the 'edges' of the endless world, where it 'warps back', the creatures may freely expand upon it. They can create whatever land with whatever rules they wish, but they cannot force others to walk it (travel is done by thought, by the way), cannot contradict their own nature (they, too, simply wish to spread happiness and joy), and cannot create sapient life. Beside that, each is free to create its own personal heaven(s), as well as invite as many other creatures there as it wishes.

[Mystic Muse]

Mmmm, possible. I however, didn't want to make something as it feels like "cheating" so I assumed I wasn't able to do that, making the planet unfindable. (As that would defeat the senario, kinda). However, only hearing each other might indeed work. Thanks!



Thanks, I understand this isn't your "perfect world" and therefore you don't support it.

I think you'll be able to partially agree with my perfect world.

no weapons at all. Nothing except what's necesarry to survive.

I'd make it like this world with a few exceptions other than that. all resources are infinitely renewable, the ozone layer can't be depleted and nothing is a toxic substance. in fact illness and disease don't even exist. Other than that the only things I'd get rid of from people's minds would be racism, sexism and religionism. (It's a word now.:smalltongue:) I'd also make it completely unfindable so people can't put those things into their heads. The only places those can exist is in the movies they make.

that's my idea of a perfect world.

[Ichneumon]

I would certainly be able to accept Kyuubi's world as is, respecting the autonomy of the creator, if we both agree to leave each other's universe's alone, that is, completely, making trans-universal movement of the inhabitants impossible. I would keep my part of the deal and not use the "lure" that I discusses earlier to lure alien creatures to my world.

I would try to make some kind of peace, or alliance. However, I don't know if this thread would become some kind of nation game when I would discuss this further, instead of a philosophical discussion.:smallconfused: (EDIT: which I wouldn't want to do, if it isn't the OP's intentions)

[Mystic Muse]

I would certainly be able to accept Kyuubi's world as is, respecting the autonomy of the creator, if we both agree to leave each other's universe's alone, that is, completely, making trans-universal movement of the inhabitants impossible. I would keep my part of the deal and not use the "lure" that I discusses earlier to lure alien creatures to my world.

I would try to make some kind of peace, or alliance. However, I don't know if this thread would become some kind of nation game when I would discuss this further, instead of a philosophical discussion.:smallconfused: (EDIT: which I wouldn't want to do, if it isn't the OP's intentions)


I'll ally with you as long as we don't have to see too much of each other. I mean no offense by this. it's just our morals and ideas are WAY too different for us to get along for an extended period of time.

I'd leave your world alone. I think I'd find it too boring anyway.:smallbiggrin: anybody who would want to would be free to visit my world as long as they didn't try to blow it up and would be nice to the inhabitants.

[Ichneumon]

I'll ally with you as long as we don't have to see too much of each other. I mean no offense by this. it's just our morals and ideas are WAY too different for us to get along for an extended period of time.

I just want to say that I've nothing against you in real life and would have nothing against hanging out with you. We've had some philosophical differences in the other thread, but as far as I'm concerned, everything is okay/cool between us.:smallsmile:

[Mystic Muse]

I just want to say that I've nothing against you in real life and would have nothing against hanging out with you. We've had some philosophical differences in the other thread, but as far as I'm concerned, everything is okay/cool between us.:smallsmile:

okay. well If this somehow does happen let's just avoid the topics of would you unmake the world and our respective opinions on religion then. I think we'll be cool then. And if you want to we can go party on my world or in my observation deck.

(I don't know why but I'd think we'd have observation decks to look over our worlds from. unless we somehow were capable of breathing in space.)

also, I see what you're trying to do and I commend you for it. I simply think you're going about it the wrong way. But this is your hypothetical world not mine.

[Avilan the Grey]

I am pretty pleased with the basic setup of this Cosmos. Add a little more sizzle to it (magic, if you will). Increase the random possibilities of evolution even more by adding functioning magic... Then just sit back and watch as Life unfolds, expands, and changes.

[Kcalehc]

I'd create a universe, with lots of stars, some with planets; all moving in perfect circles in glorious technicolour. With nebulae creating new stars, novae resulting from the deaths of stars; comets dancing through the cosmos with icy trails. Black holes devouring the centers of galaxies while the stars spin around them slowly descending into crushing oblivion. I'd constantly tinker with the physical laws so that everything worked the way it should.

And none of that ridiculous life stuff cluttering the place up. My universe would be a tidy universe.


(I might even have pi as 3.0, soo much easier to do calculations with then)

[Mystic Muse]

(I might even have pi as 3.0, soo much easier to do calculations with then)

I approve of this.

[Ichneumon]

I approve of this.

So do I, that's awesome. We need more of this. Maybe we could agree on something like a univerisal law's kind of version of the "Système international"?

[Mystic Muse]

So do I, that's awesome. We need more of this. Maybe we could agree on something like a univerisal law's kind of version of the "Système international"?

maybe but that would require me know what that is in the first place.:smalltongue:

[Avilan the Grey]

maybe but that would require me know what that is in the first place.:smalltongue:

The Metric system, basically. You know, a system of measurements that actually makes sense. :smallwink:

[Elfin]

I'd definitely create the universe. Just too much fun to pass up.


No, I wouldn't create the univerise, at least not as it is now. Even though there is a lot of beauty, happiness and benefit for those living in it, inevitably, unless I would have full total control over everything always, some would be born who are better of non-existent. Think for example about some horribly handicaped children who are most times euthanised hours after they are born. Sure, they are a tiny minority, but I, as creator, would be responsible for their existence, which is a pain. I believe in the basic rights of individuals and that means that I can't bring these babies into existence, whatever the benefit for everybody else might be. Non-existence is not something bad, stopping to exist might be, but, like with those children, it is not.

If however, I would be able to create a world, completely to my liking, I would create one based on mathematics. Monochrome in colour and perceptiveness. No sun would "move around the sky", but perpetual "arcs of light" brighten a dark monochrome sky. Earth would be mostly flat, with the surface consisting of a seemingly endless hex grid. Some hexes would be elevated, showing slight discolorations. These would be the birth places of the inhabitants of the world. These "citizens" would have no true material form, only coördinates, they would all perceive exactly the same at all time and hear the thoughts of every other creature in the univirse. These creatures would spawn semi-randomly from these special grids and start on a endless journey to away from their spawning-point, singing their philosophical thoughts.

These creatures would be intelligent, yet have no physical desires, only psychological mental ones. They would be able to communicate with each other all around the world and have debates, far faster than any vocal language would allow them to, because they can read and predict the thought processes of others.

The how my world would look like.

I wish I could say I'm surprised...:smallfrown:

[Lost Demiurge]

I wish I could say I'm surprised...:smallfrown:

Ah, now. Every creator's gotta make as their heart commands. Otherwise, they wouldn't be creating, just painting by numbers.

What's your universe look like?

[Dixieboy]

Yes, life. Maybe I'll create some.

Watchmen quote?
No wait, he said it in some other cool way.

Anyway:

I lack imagination. I'd probably just tweak a couple of the laws of physics to stand aside for the rule of cool.
That'd be it.

[Elfin]

My world would be a place of unequaled beauty, of radiant dawns that rise in mighty hues, painting the unvaulted skies in brilliant colors above crashing waves; of soaring valleys and towering mountains clad in gleaming snow, of icy rivers racing and roaring rapids running to the shores of shining seas, of dusky sunsets soft, of rolling winds and glimmering mists and silver rains of unfettered and eternal majesty.
I would not interfere with the affairs of my children; I would not bind them to obey my laws, save one: I shall suffer no overt or unrequired cruelty. Yet even then I would not be able to prevent all pain and suffering, much as I would wish it; but for the hardships they endure my people would love the light all the more.

[Mystic Muse]

The Metric system, basically. You know, a system of measurements that actually makes sense. :smallwink:

oh okay then. yeah I hate having to remember a mile is 5280 feet, a foot is twelve inches, a blahblah blah. the metric system is SO much simpler.

[Elfin]

the metric system is SO much simpler.

I'm with ya on that one.

[Mystic Muse]

although it'd be kind of confusing for me to switch from cups to litres and mililitres and such in my cooking.

[Lupy]

Yes, yes I would.

[Erts]

Before I create the universe, I would first use my reality warping powers to make a machine so complex it can similate any kind of world I want to make (and show me different time periods, people, etc.)

I also would use them to increase my intellegence till I feel I have the judgement to do so, and try to ensure that I did not become to distant from this idea.

After long long expirementations with this, I would decide which is the most fair (to all life, not just sentient ones, and one which leaves a good amount of free will.)

Also, I would create many many worlds, with many different themes and ideas... One which exactly Dungeouns and Dragons, one from Tolkien, one from any story universe I can think of.

I also would also make a world exactly like Earth at this time, and see how people react to my reality warping powers, and use them to discover and expirement, and over all change the world. Then I would use them to my liking, and then go back to creating world.

After I finally feel pleased with myself, I would sit back and monitering my creations, content to watch this infinite multi-multiversal drama taking place infront of me. If I choose to make more worlds, I will. Basically, if I choose to change something, I think I would.

[chiasaur11]

(I might even have pi as 3.0, soo much easier to do calculations with then)

Bergholt Stuttley Johnson? Is that you?

Now me, I'd have to do that universe creating bit.

But I'd have to quote Durandal frequently.

[Fiery Justice]

I'd make a universe, sure, and I'd make the most beautiful, exquisite worlds I could imagine. Music that wafted up to heaven, silences that seeped into hearts, magnificent skies, glorious storms, everlasting mountains, ever-shifting seas, rings of starlight, dancing moons, colossal gas giants and tiny, flashing meteors. The whole of my creation would be a praise offering to the Almighty.

But the thing I would never do, not because I think it is bad but because I think it too wonderful, is make a living thing. I could never love a living, free being as it deserved to be loved. And I could never promise it the mercy or the justice my creator gave me. Could I do that to my children, my precious little ones? No. Better that they never be than that they be without such things.

What would I do when I met other worlds? Well, first I'd make my planets inhabitable, something I would have neglected to do before. Then I'd probably go talk to some of my fellow creators, just to talk. I bet I'd be pretty lonely after living alone for however long. I'd make my own universe much faster internally (it isn't naturally expanding), so I could work on stuff for as long as I liked.

[Elfin]

Personally, I could not stand to pour so much effort into a creation of such beauty, yet then let it lie empty: to let the skies sail without the sweet singing of birds above lands devoid of the lush green of life, of the brilliant blooming of flowers, to let the wind whisper alone through empty leagues without any voices else to whisper with it.

[Fiery Justice]

Hmm... I wasn't including plants. I'd make plants. Actually, any non-free willed creature would be pretty much okay by me. But, absolute law here, no free-willed creations on my part. My design would be wholly inferior to the original.

[Anuan]

To address an earlier issue; the universe is pointless, because it isn't pointy. It is soft, and round, with cuddly bits. Some bits are bumpy. We can either climb over them or go around to the cuddly bits.

Anyway, yeah, I'd do it. Except, in my world I'd include magic as an awesome, D&D style thing.
Also, various humanoid nonhumans would populate the place alongside humanity >.>

[Trog]

Maybe?

I'd try out making a few small and intimate locations just to try out the coolness of being able to make a completely customized place to walk around / hang out in. A zen rock garden with lots of cool bonzai-type trees would be cool. Maybe a small tropical island with a nice hut and a hammock and a wet bar stocked with lots of coconut-shaped glasses and plenty of little paper umbrellas.

I guess I'd be more interested in making environments without too much complex life. Plants (that for whatever reason don't need insects and the like for pollination), sure. Creating intelligent life? Probably not.

[horngeek]

No.

Because quite simply, I don't have the wisdom, intelligence, or just plain empathy to make it all good.

For somone to not get it horribly wrong, they would need to not only be ommnipotent, but ommnibenevolent and probably ommnicent.

[shadowxknight]

I would if I could.
Out of curiosity to see how the lifeforms will evolve and change.

[Hell Puppi]

One part of me says no, I'd muck it up.
Another says go for it, maybe you'll create some beauty and happiness.
The last part says I make a planet full of intelligent being (like humans), give them complex clues as to my existence and why I made them...and then hope to hear this conversation:
"sir! We've figured out the last clue!"
"What is it?! The name of the creator? The meaning of it all?"
"No, sir, apparently she just wanted to make unicorns."

[Mattarias, King.]

:smallamused: Heheh. This thread amuses me. Of course I would. It would be glorious.

[Ichneumon]

So, when can we expect part II of the OP's story? I'm dying to know what happens next to our universes.:smallbiggrin:

[Yrcrazypa]

I'd create it exactly as it is now, except there would be slight changes to allow FTL travel to be possible, and magic/psionics would co-exist with technology. And I would make myself supreme god of the universe I create, and I would play the universe like a giant RTS, sending entire armies of different life-forms after each other whenever I get bored.

Yes, I know I can do this already with Sins of a Solar Empire, but it is not as cool as handcrafting several alien races.

[Grey Paladin]

I just wanted to say that I do personally like Ichneumon's world or at least the idea behind it. I only criticized the execution.


I'd create it exactly as it is now, except there would be slight changes to allow FTL travel to be possible, and magic/psionics would co-exist with technology. And I would make myself supreme god of the universe I create, and I would play the universe like a giant RTS, sending entire armies of different life-forms after each other whenever I get bored.

Yes, I know I can do this already with Sins of a Solar Empire, but it is not as cool as handcrafting several alien races.
Coughpsycopathcough

[Ichneumon]

I just wanted to say that I do personally like Ichneumon's world or at least the idea behind it. I only criticized the execution.


Why, thank you!:smalltongue:

[Thelas]

I would create Mechanus. It would be full of inevitables with the capability to vote (majority) on the creation of new laws, and whenever a law was created a new inevitable would be formed. Children of other worlds could visit if they obeyed all laws of the world, and if they didn't they'd be spontaneously returned to their home world.

Thelas

[Anuan]

I approve of this.

Me too, but only because of the Pratchett reference :smalltongue:

[druid91]

As for Part 1

Yes I would. my universe would have at least three planets and no sun, only moons (which would glow by themselves.)
planet number one would be a mixture of water and plants (Imagine a forest grown into a ball with no dirt only water) and would be inhabited by some sort of amphibious race, and be cold and stormy always.
number two would be made of metal and machines with robots everywhere. With no giant piles of garbage, this would be the perfect spotless world.that would always have a clear sky with few clouds.
and third would be something like earth but it would be mostly forest and decayed/destroyed urban environments, And no mountain ranges! only single mountains by themselves, This would have Humans it would always be in an autumn season.
And moving around this Universe would be a space station type thing but it would have its own biospheres of every sort of environment on earth, to make sure I don't forget. and a library with copies of every book ever in existence. this is where I would observe my universe from.

as for general attributes of my universe it would stay the same size, world one would be capable of something akin to bending, and the humans on world three would be capable of magic. and every thing would just work the laws of my universe would be made so that everything I described would just work. because otherwise my perfect place would fall apart and that would just be sad.

Also every living thing in this universe would be able to find me without much effort. Every sentient being in my universe would have the capacity to do good or evil, Without this watching the universe would be no fun, there is no point in doing good if that is all there is, It would be much more entertaining when you see your creations have the choice between good and evil and ,knowing that it will make life harder for them, choose good.
If they did not have this ability to be either good or evil before they came to my universe they would not be able to enter, they would be blocked on the outer edges and would just end up at the other side as if it wasn't there.

now for Part 2

I would contact them and say "hi, how are you doing?" look at what they have built congratulate them and for the most part ignore them except for small talk and the occasional game of giant space chess.
but make sure that there isn't too much interference in my universe from theirs.
Also suns/stars that enter it would fail to affect the inhabitants of my universe in any way shape or form. (Excluding me, but I would not see it or be affected by it in any way except knowing that it is there.)


Also, Ichneumon why make it so that your creatures have no physical form as opposed to a perfect physical form that has no needs or wants?:smallconfused: basically the same effect as before only now they can visit other universes.

[Ichneumon]

Also, Ichneumon why make it so that your creatures have no physical form as opposed to a perfect physical form that has no needs or wants?:smallconfused: basically the same effect as before only now they can visit other universes.

They don't need a physical form and they most likely don't need to visit other worlds to be happy. It would be a waste of energy to give them physical form.

[Lord Fullbladder, Master of Goblins]

I'm not sure if I would, actually. I'd be afraid I'd screw up horribly.

However, I might be able to convince myself to give it a shot, and of course it wouldn't be perfect, but then again, what is?

As for intellegent life, I might. I'd probably get lonely. Also to see if I could, and to see how it played out.

Sure, why not? Sign up one more god for Paradise*. Paraaaaadise!



*It wouldn't be Paradise.

[Kallisti]

Maybe not being unhappy is the perfect state then, a state without suffering?
That's a very Buddhist point of view.

I think I know where you've been going with this, and why you'd want to create a world like that, but count me out. With an entire race of people who have nothing to do but eat and sleep enough to survive and debate philosophy, eventually you'd just get one canon idea from whoever can be the loudest and most persistant on every given issue, and life would consist of eat, sleep, agree, eat, sleep, agree...

...The nice thing about philosophical debates in our little flawed world is that, not only do they dicuss things that actually happen (I mean, really, what philosophy does your nothing-but-debate race have? What do they have to philosophize about? Which kinds of philosophical debate are more morally neutral?), you can take a break from them. They're new, refreshing, a chance to exercise your mind. And then you go do something else. A whole world with nothing else would get boring fast. Life needs uncertainty and variety. Otherwise it's not life, just existance. I'd rather life a decade than exist a milennium.

That's my two cents. Care or not, as you will.

Me, personally? Yes. I'd create the universe. With intelligent life from the start. Evolution is long and boring. Humanoid is good enough for us, so it won't kill them. Basically, our universe as-is, but with fewer idiots. Because sure, our universe as-is is full of suffering and very flawed, but things are steadily getting better, and we've already accomplished a lot. Then I'd go, and come back in a million years or two, and see what my creations have wrought. If they haven't got anything good yet, I go and try again later. Eventually they'll get it right. Hopefully.

[Ichneumon]

That's a very Buddhist point of view.

It is indeed.

[Lost Demiurge]

Alright! Time to move the scenario up...

Part III:

You've created your world or worlds, and for the most part, they're working out like you envisioned.

You've interacted with your peers, and viewed other creations, and acted and reacted in a variety of ways.

Now you've noticed something new.

All those universes that are expanding? They're mixing with the universes they encounter, and blending with them. Carrying them along, to mix with others.

And pretty soon, they'll mix with yours. Your carefully established laws and creations will blend together, cancel each other out in some cases, destroy some, create odd things with others.

And the more this happens, the more your power will wane. See, your powers are not so effective against the stuff of an alien creator. Almost nonexistent, if the creator chooses to oppose your manipulations. And the more alien stuff mixes into the stuff of your own creation, the less effective your powers are upon it.

At the start of this part, you've still got enough control to affect most of your universe. But as time goes on, you'll lose more and more.

Your universe will not remain the way you made it.

Now what will you do?

[Ichneumon]

The growth of the other universes is a direct threat to my universe and the happiness of its inhabitants. If I understand you correctly, universes are growing under the control of their creator. Therefore the other creators are a threat to my universe. I would ask them to stop letting their universes grow and if they would not do so willingly, I'll have to force them, maybe even destroy them if they still refuse.

I am not a violent creator, but I will defend myself and this growth is a direct threat to the well-being of my "children" as any universe that is not exactly like mine will cause them harm.

[chiasaur11]

Right. Alien life.

Well, first thing's first. Set up a system to maximize the impact of what I can do after I'm sealed out. I mean, I obviously can still do something, and I might as well find out how to ensure that works as well as possible.

Then:

Giant robots. Military uses are less than anything else under real physics, sure, but if the laws of physics favor them enough...

Well, my guys get a nice corner of the universe to themselves. Hopefully through peaceful means, but...

[Grey Paladin]

Become as a porcupine, and surround the (unreachable) edges of my world with reality-devouring Cosmic Horrors (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EldritchAbomination?from=Main.CosmicHorror). They shall remain dormant until contact with another universe, at which point they shall proceed to annihilate/exterminate everything they come in touch with, endlessly reproducing until the entire multiverse is nothing but them and the void - it is at this point that they shall destroy themselves. I make this known to all other creators, so that they know to change the direction at which their universe expands at.

Don't Tread On Me.

[Ravens_cry]

I would try and work out the effects the universes (it's so funny that word has an accepted plural) would have when interacting with mine. I don't want the changes in the laws of physics to hurt anyone. Seriously, what if the gas exchange laws don't work the same way, and humanity chokes to death on air? What if ice sinks? I would slowly, but subtly, change the laws and properties of the universe so that the changeover is smooth, and doesn't cause the disaster, or others, outlined. Then I would go to nearby universes, and suggest that they do the same, so everything goes smoothly for all concerned. Then I would send an avatar to humanity and other creatures within my realm and work to keep it peaceful, but prepare as best they can.

[Ichneumon]

If the other creators are not willing to stop their expanding I would try to destroy them by secretely turning their universe against them. Poisoning the dreams, the minds, of the creatures or things that inhabit their worlds.

[Mystic Muse]

hey I wouldn't let my world be expanding unless it needed it in which case I'd put it in a better location away from your respective worlds.

my world is unfindable anyway.:smalltongue::smalltongue:

[Ravens_cry]

If the other creators are not willing to stop their expanding I would try to destroy them by secretely turning their universe against them. Poisoning the dreams, the minds, of the creatures or things that inhabit their worlds.
Woah.
You would be like, well, Satan. Not as the clove foot pitchfork wielder of popular culture, nor the prosecuting lawyer of the Book of Job, but one who actively works to turn people away from a deity. If I find you doing that in my universe, you and I are going to have words. I am pretty subtle in my mechanisations. I haven't, and won't unless in dire need, actively revealed myself to my people. So I don't know what your sowing of disorder would have except disgruntle people.

[Lappy9000]

No, I would never create the world.

[Telonius]

Gentlemen (And ladies too), a question for you.

Imagine that you have the ability to go to a place where there was nothing, nothing but you. Some alternate dimension, some far corner of the existing universe that had been destroyed, or unmade.

Now, further imagine that you have the ability to turn this place, this nothing, into something. You have the ability to make this place into a Universe of its own.

You can spend as much or as little time as you wish on this task, if you undertake it. Time is meaningless here, until you create it. Even then, you don't have to give it full authority over your work. You can custom craft a world or worlds as you like.

No one will ever know that you are the creator, unless you wish them to know this, or give them the ability to learn it in time. No one will ever be able to challenge your creation, unless you make them capable of doing so, or give them the capacity to grow to your power.

You would be the sole maker, unless you decided otherwise. Ultimately, though, all responsibility for the existence of this universe would rest upon YOU.

With all this under consideration and many many more points that I have not raised to consider... The question is this;

Would you create the universe?

I'm already the author of a fantasy novel. So, yes.


PART II

Alright. So you've got your universe going. Things are working the way you want them to. But something catches your attention.

It turns out you were NOT alone. You were NOT the sole creator. You ability to sense the other creators was simply limited until you finished your initial creation. Now your universe exists next to others.

Now you can sense and communicate with the other creators. It MIGHT be possible to do other things to/with them, but you won't know until you try.

And some of the other creators designed their universes to grow and/or expand. They'll be mingling with your universe eventually.

Oh, and some of the species designed by the other creators have the imagination, drive, or innovative ability to one day travel to other universes, including yours.

Now what? What do you do, creator?
Looks like I have editors now. Well, take into account what they ask for, change what needs to be changed. Stand firm on the core principles.


Part III:

You've created your world or worlds, and for the most part, they're working out like you envisioned.

You've interacted with your peers, and viewed other creations, and acted and reacted in a variety of ways.

Now you've noticed something new.

All those universes that are expanding? They're mixing with the universes they encounter, and blending with them. Carrying them along, to mix with others.

And pretty soon, they'll mix with yours. Your carefully established laws and creations will blend together, cancel each other out in some cases, destroy some, create odd things with others.

And the more this happens, the more your power will wane. See, your powers are not so effective against the stuff of an alien creator. Almost nonexistent, if the creator chooses to oppose your manipulations. And the more alien stuff mixes into the stuff of your own creation, the less effective your powers are upon it.

At the start of this part, you've still got enough control to affect most of your universe. But as time goes on, you'll lose more and more.

Your universe will not remain the way you made it.

Now what will you do?

Sounds like they optioned off the movie rights to Disney or Bruckheimer or somebody. First, fire my agent for not getting me a creative control clause. Then, pull an Ursula LeGuin and disavow all existence of it.

[druid91]

Alright! Time to move the scenario up...

Part III:

You've created your world or worlds, and for the most part, they're working out like you envisioned.

You've interacted with your peers, and viewed other creations, and acted and reacted in a variety of ways.

Now you've noticed something new.

All those universes that are expanding? They're mixing with the universes they encounter, and blending with them. Carrying them along, to mix with others.

And pretty soon, they'll mix with yours. Your carefully established laws and creations will blend together, cancel each other out in some cases, destroy some, create odd things with others.

And the more this happens, the more your power will wane. See, your powers are not so effective against the stuff of an alien creator. Almost nonexistent, if the creator chooses to oppose your manipulations. And the more alien stuff mixes into the stuff of your own creation, the less effective your powers are upon it.

At the start of this part, you've still got enough control to affect most of your universe. But as time goes on, you'll lose more and more.

Your universe will not remain the way you made it.

Now what will you do?

I would talk to them. and see if I could get them to expand away from my Tiny universe and if they agree, fine, everything works out. BUT if they don't agree I would at the very least make sure the laws of my universe remain intact, as otherwise said universe and its impossibleness (impossibility?) would be in danger.
Then I would warn my creations of possible invaders, and help them produce defenses and such for as long as I could. Possibly set something up so that my universe does expand, but only by eating/assimilating other universes that grow into it leaving physical objects but replacing their laws, and tell the ones nearby about this. And after that I would sit back and watch.

and

Become as a porcupine, and surround the (unreachable) edges of my world with reality-devouring Cosmic Horrors (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EldritchAbomination?from=Main.CosmicHorror). They shall remain dormant until contact with another universe, at which point they shall proceed to annihilate/exterminate everything they come in touch with, endlessly reproducing until the entire multiverse is nothing but them and the void - it is at this point that they shall destroy themselves. I make this known to all other creators, so that they know to change the direction at which their universe expands at.

Don't Tread On Me.

why would you destroy all universes/creators for the actions of one?

[Ichneumon]

Woah.
You would be like, well, Satan. Not as the clove foot pitchfork wielder of popular culture, nor the prosecuting lawyer of the Book of Job, but one who actively works to turn people away from a deity. If I find you doing that in my universe, you and I are going to have words. I am pretty subtle in my mechanisations. I haven't, and won't unless in dire need, actively revealed myself to my people. So I don't know what your sowing of disorder would have except disgruntle people.

I wouldn't do it without reason, only if the other creators would refuse to stop increasing their universes in my direction. As it is likely that we would stay far away from each other, or at least would be able to talk things over, it is unlikely I would do that to you.

[Ravens_cry]

I wouldn't do it without reason, only if the other creators would refuse to stop increasing their universes in my direction. As it is likely that we would stay far away from each other, or at least would be able to talk things over, it is unlikely I would do that to you.
It's still a rather horrid thing to do, considering they seem to have little to no control over the process. See relevant quote below.

All those universes that are expanding? They're mixing with the universes they encounter, and blending with them. Carrying them along, to mix with others.
One may as well as try to turn fish against the sea to turn back the tide, Ichneumon.

[Grey Paladin]

druid: I shall only destroy the 'bubble' that touched upon my world. The punishment is so severe because it is meant to scare deities - even the most vile ones who create a sadistic world would not wish to see it end and themselves become powerless.

I hope that the Horrors will never be awakened, but with them the utopia that is my universe can be maintained.

EDIT: I am of the understanding that creators can stop their worlds from expanding. If not, that changes my answer significantly.

[Ichneumon]

EDIT: I am of the understanding that creators can stop their worlds from expanding. If not, that changes my answer significantly.

I am of the same opinion and my answer would also change drastically.

[Coidzor]

Hmm. Probably. I'm kinda curious as to where it's going right now.

[Lost Demiurge]

Very well. Part III.5

After a bit of expansion, and some serious destruction and war, it becomes apparent that there's too much momentum.

Some of the creators who designed their universes to expand are gone, having made a universe then left. Others didn't notice the effects of expansion in time to do anything... Their universes are already so mixed that they don't have sufficient control over them to stop them.

Others planned for their universes to absorb others. Others just didn't care.

At this point, enough creators have reacted with violence that there's a war raging around and/or in your universe. Kind of messy.

There are several options from this point. Here are a few.

It looks like the only way at this point to preserve your initial vision, if you wish to do so, is to take what you can of your universe and go ELSEWHERE with it. This would mean damaging it... It was never designed to be moved in such a fashion. And where exactly you'd end up is a mystery.

If you wish to meet the oncoming tide of change, then you have the option of trying to use your power to shift your universe to adapt to it, kind of like "riding the wave." Won't prevent change, and eventually you'll be near powerless, but you'll be able to preserve SOME of your initial vision. Maybe even the parts of it that you want to preserve.

Or you could choose to let the expanding universes mesh with your own. This would let you preserve the most power for later use... But at the cost of your creation. Your universe has a tiny chance of being totally destroyed, no chance of coming through unaltered, and will probably be changed to a barely recognizeable form.

There are more options, but it's up to you to figure them out.

For those whose answer for part III would change, now's the time to figure out HOW it would change.

So, what do you do, creator?

[Grey Paladin]

My gambit has failed, so I shall relocate my universe to ELSEWHERE(!) - a shot at a perfect world is worth damnation. My children are too soft and kind-hearted to survive in a world meshed with that of a sadist which purposefully created evil.

As the other creators were not deliberate in their actions but simply unforgivably foolish I shall take the Horrors with me but keep them dormant until told otherwise. I shall keep them sleeping at the unreachable edges of my world, as a type of a doomsday weapon.

[Ichneumon]

After having tried to stop some of them I realise my doom would be near and impossible to prevent. The first thing I would do was to create some kind of codex, some book or knowledge of some kind and leave in in this "realm of universes" hoping that one day, when I am gone and all universes have experience one big fusion some intelligent creature would find my old "knowledge" or "perspective" and study and teach it and hopefully change the world in something more "perfect". I would leave one of my "seeds" or "vestiges" behind, my essence.

Next I would put my entire universe in some kind of hybernation, everything would stop so as to make sure they would not suffer during the "inescapable journey" I and the universe are going to make. I would call for my allies (as I am sure I would have collected some during my wars, if only those that I've made a non-hostility pact with, such as with Kyuubi), I would tell them what I did and what I am planning on doing, "leaving the universal realm", hoping to find a better place for my universe and world as it can not possibly co-exist with this one. Than, I would say goodbye and do what has to be done, whatever that is. I'm never going to compromise when it concerns the well being of my creatures.

[Mystic Muse]

as before. My universe is out in the middle of nowhere and completely unfindable. I'm unaffected.:smallsmile:

[Ichneumon]

as before. My universe is out in the middle of nowhere and completely unfindable. I'm unaffected.:smallsmile:

In that case, I'm there too..... I'm joking:smallamused:

[Ravens_cry]

Negotiate where I can, integrate in unexplored (by the native life forms) regions and shield life from the most destructive changes, with large buffer zones of strengthening integration. I don't want some exploratory vassal suddenly finding a zone in the universe where laws of physics make outsides in and insides out. I want my power to end up somewhere between the two extremes, able to help when needed. I want to end up with a new, larger, universe, for my people to explore, with the proper precautions.

[Grey Paladin]

One does not needs to perceive to find. Metaphysically endlessly expanding universes are bound to bump into yours eventually.

[Lost Demiurge]

as before. My universe is out in the middle of nowhere and completely unfindable. I'm unaffected.:smallsmile:

What Grey Paladin said.

So, sorry but no dice. Your preparations protected your universe for a time, but you can tell that the defenses are being worn down. And as the universes keep expanding and melding with others, they're picking up speed.

You've got more control than your peers at this point, but it's not gonna last forever.

What do you do?

[Ichneumon]

One does not needs to perceive to find. Metaphysically endlessly expanding universes are bound to bump into yours eventually.

That's a good point, but where exactly are we going when we go ELSEWHERE? Just another parallel ehm mega-verse? Surely, we must have some vague idea.

[Mystic Muse]

I will peacefully ask them to stop their universe from expanding so much. If they won't comply then they've for all intents and purposes declared war with me. (I'll mkae sure they know this when deciding.) If this is the case I won't hold back on them. They had a choice and they chose to make me their enemy.

[Ichneumon]

I will peacefully ask them to stop their universe from expanding so much. If they won't comply then they've for all intents and purposes declared war with me. (I'll mkae sure they know this when deciding.) If this is the case I won't hold back on them. They had a choice and they chose to make me their enemy.

So, finally we agree on how to handle a situation.:smallamused: We are on the same side after all.

[Grey Paladin]

I will peacefully ask them to stop their universe from expanding so much. If they won't comply then they've for all intents and purposes declared war with me. (I'll mkae sure they know this when deciding.) If this is the case I won't hold back on them. They had a choice and they chose to make me their enemy.

As Lost Demiurge has stated, some individuals created Expanding worlds and left Creationspace.

You'd be destroying a world full of innocents for no reason - and even if you do so it still wouldn't stop the expanding universe because that Creator left it in such a state before leaving.


I'd like to suggest some universal terms we could adopt:

Creator - one of the players; the lord of a universe
Universe - The Creation of one Creator
Multiverse - Several Universes tangled together
Omniverse - The metaphysical space where all Universes and Multiverses exist
Elsewhere - unknown as of yet
Children - A sapient lifeform attributed to a particular Creator
Influence - the ability of a Creator to effect his Universe or a Multiverse in which his Universe is part of

[Lost Demiurge]

That's a good point, but where exactly are we going when we go ELSEWHERE? Just another parallel ehm mega-verse? Surely, we must have some vague idea.

Bending your thoughts and powers to it at this juncture, you find out a few facts. You get the feeling you would have found out more if you'd done this earlier... But back then you had no idea the situation would even occur. Oh well.

You get the sense that Elsewhere is probably empty and nigh-infinite. You also get the sense that once you go in, it will be sealed off from all of your other peers. And their universes.

[Mystic Muse]

As Lost Demiurge has stated, some individuals created Expanding worlds and left Creationspace.

You'd be destroying a world full of innocents for no reason - and even if you do so it still wouldn't stop the expanding universe because that Creator left it in such a state before leaving.


I'd like to suggest some universal terms we could adopt:

Creator - one of the players; the lord of a universe
Universe - The Creation of one Creator
Multiverse - Several Universes tangled together
Omniverse - The metaphysical space where all Universes and Multiverses exist
Elsewhere - unknown as of yet
Children - A sapient lifeform attributed to a particular Creator
Influence - the ability of a Creator to effect his Universe or a Multiverse in which his Universe is part of

then I tell the universe in question not to invade my territory and give them the same ulitmatum. they can expand but they have to avoid taking my world with them. (preferably other worlds too.) that or any who set foot on my world are bound by the its laws.

[Grey Paladin]

You should re-read what Demiurge wrote. The expanding universes were already set into motion and there is nothing you can do to stop them - only varying ways to react to the change, or fleeing to Elsewhere.
"Your universe will not remain the way you made it."

[Ravens_cry]

You should re-read what Demiurge wrote. The expanding universes were already set into motion and there is nothing you can do to stop them - only varying ways to react to the change, or fleeing to Elsewhere.
"Your universe will not remain the way you made it."
To explore strange new worlds. To seek out new life and new civilisations. To Boldly Go Where No One Has Gone Before.
It will be a Great Adventure, I am so not leaving.

[Grey Paladin]

My last post was directed at Kyuubi's.

[Ravens_cry]

My last post was directed at Kyuubi's.
I know, I was just giving my 1/3 of a sixpence on the situation. I hope you don't mind.:smallsmile:

[Mystic Muse]

well if they're ever expanding what good would leaving do? unless we'd go to a different dimension or something leaving would be pointless.

[druid91]

Very well. Part III.5

After a bit of expansion, and some serious destruction and war, it becomes apparent that there's too much momentum.

Some of the creators who designed their universes to expand are gone, having made a universe then left. Others didn't notice the effects of expansion in time to do anything... Their universes are already so mixed that they don't have sufficient control over them to stop them.

Others planned for their universes to absorb others. Others just didn't care.

At this point, enough creators have reacted with violence that there's a war raging around and/or in your universe. Kind of messy.

There are several options from this point. Here are a few.

It looks like the only way at this point to preserve your initial vision, if you wish to do so, is to take what you can of your universe and go ELSEWHERE with it. This would mean damaging it... It was never designed to be moved in such a fashion. And where exactly you'd end up is a mystery.

If you wish to meet the oncoming tide of change, then you have the option of trying to use your power to shift your universe to adapt to it, kind of like "riding the wave." Won't prevent change, and eventually you'll be near powerless, but you'll be able to preserve SOME of your initial vision. Maybe even the parts of it that you want to preserve.

Or you could choose to let the expanding universes mesh with your own. This would let you preserve the most power for later use... But at the cost of your creation. Your universe has a tiny chance of being totally destroyed, no chance of coming through unaltered, and will probably be changed to a barely recognizeable form.

There are more options, but it's up to you to figure them out.

For those whose answer for part III would change, now's the time to figure out HOW it would change.

So, what do you do, creator?

record the histories of my creations/children, give whatever leaders they may have appointed warning that this might go badly, and then attempt to fold my universe in on itself.
Abandoning those pieces that are already compromised with other-stuff* and leave only one opening that will convert matter and creatures in order to better fit my universe and reconvert them when they leave to fit in best with whatever reality is on the other side.
I'm guessing it would be kind of like a hot-air balloon of reality. If this last attempt to save my universe as-is failed I would give my creations/children my estimation of how long they would have before they would be hit by the effects of me taking option 3,:smallfrown: along with my assurances that they would be avenged and remembered.
Then wreak horrible vengeance on the encroaching universes. see if my creations/children survived in any way shape or form and use my power to return it as close as possible to the way it was, but this time behind the growth shock waves instead of in front of them.:smallsmile:

*Other-stuff: the material of other dimensions besides my own.

[Fiery Justice]

During Part III: Those people who were foolish enough to attack other creator's children, I would have fought against. Mind you, I would not be so reckless as to have created mortals of my own but now mortals exist and I will not allow murderers to run rampant. Anyone who couldn't cope with that would face the full wrath of my creative forces. Murder is never justifiable, and an evil act to preserve a paradise destroys it.

Part III.5: I'd stay with the core set of universes and watch our universes meld, frown when all my centuries of hard work are disrupted and try and take care of mortals who stumbled into my portion of the greater realm but I wouldn't protect them from the consequences of their actions.

[Anuan]

I'd like to suggest some universal terms we could adopt:

Creator - one of the players; the lord of a universe
Universe - The Creation of one Creator
Multiverse - Several Universes tangled together
Omniverse - The metaphysical space where all Universes and Multiverses exist
Elsewhere - unknown as of yet
Children - A sapient lifeform attributed to a particular Creator
Influence - the ability of a Creator to effect his Universe or a Multiverse in which his Universe is part of

Reading all this and all the later parts of this thread, the thought arises to me that this would make an excellent Strategy game with RPG elements... *goes off to ponder*

[Pika...]

Gentlemen (And ladies too), a question for you.

Imagine that you have the ability to go to a place where there was nothing, nothing but you. Some alternate dimension, some far corner of the existing universe that had been destroyed, or unmade.

Now, further imagine that you have the ability to turn this place, this nothing, into something. You have the ability to make this place into a Universe of its own.

You can spend as much or as little time as you wish on this task, if you undertake it. Time is meaningless here, until you create it. Even then, you don't have to give it full authority over your work. You can custom craft a world or worlds as you like.

No one will ever know that you are the creator, unless you wish them to know this, or give them the ability to learn it in time. No one will ever be able to challenge your creation, unless you make them capable of doing so, or give them the capacity to grow to your power.

You would be the sole maker, unless you decided otherwise. Ultimately, though, all responsibility for the existence of this universe would rest upon YOU.

With all this under consideration and many many more points that I have not raised to consider... The question is this;

Would you create the universe?


Sort of.

What I would do is take that fragment of unused existence/left over creation material/new birthing universe/whatever and use it for two purposes.


1. I would make a single planet, with at least one matching climate region from this world (the Earth of my birth). I would spend centuries alone fading back-and-forth between Earth and this nameless world, creating carrying back with me seeds and saplings to transplant into elegant guardians, with their purpose being to eventually grow wild and seed the local area.

Then, once the seeding is done I would make it so all animals on Earth can instinctively feel this place, and with only a thought be able to trandport themselves there, permanently.


2. Once that is done I would immediately begin on a perfectly circular fortress with a diameter of exactly two miles. Think hundreds of smaller and smaller stone hedges within each other.

Each circle would be spaced 20 feet from the next. There would only be one gate per each, at a hidden and random direction. Throughout the circle would lie countless traps I'd spend decades or even centuries designing, along with mechanical soulless creatures programmed with a very basic order (destroy anything that passes this way). To protect the skies, perched on each ring would be thousands of winged mechanical creatures in the forms of every dragon I can conceivably imagine or recall from my childhood, all of which being granted grater power than the land contraptions, and their numbers totaling in the hundreds of thousands.

At the very center, of the very last circle, would sit a solid stone or marble chair. Basically squared and featureless. Once finished with my other tasks I would sit there, and lay back. I would then close my eyes and enter a dreamless state of unconsciousness.

I would have achieved my paradise.

[Kjata]

A world of extremes sails through a sea of black. Several springs of pure joy burst from the surface, around which civilazations have sprung. A giant city is built around each spring. Culture, art, and intelligence are abundant in these cities. But the springs are fueled by the lives of those nearby, and the citizens of these cities live short lives. Outside the cities are lands of vicous creatures, lands where those who have forsaken the cities live. Once a being leaves the city, his mind becomes more feral and more ready to live in a pack to hunt and farm for a living. The tradeoff for the cushy life of the cities is longevity; without the springs sapping their live the feral ones live at least five times as long. Some regret leaving, missing the easy life, while others thrive on the excitement. Alternatively, some in the cities wonder what the outside is like, and aare bored with their paradise, but are afraid that if they leave they will regret it. The ultimate free will, in which the inhabitants of the worlds can decide how their very minds work.

[Lost Demiurge]

All right, then.

Part IV.

Those who went elsewhere find themselves in a blank space, with your universe below... You get an impression that you're in a similar spot to where you first gained your Creator's power, but looking at it from a different vantage. A higher vantage. You also find that it took damn near all of your power to push your universe into this realm... You can't do much of anything with it anymore.

As you sit back and ponder your next move, you become aware of a being watching you. (See below.)

Those who stayed, find themselves watching as the wave expands through and past their universes, and themselves. You find your "Godspace" combining with others. You can talk and come into contact with each other. Call the members of this shared space a "Pantheon."

Your universes actually came through this pretty okay... The combining of so many disparate viewpoints has created large patches where your past influence is visible, and lots of unforeseen little interactions that do weird things. Overall, life goes on. The ones that were thrown into conflict by their creator or by violent neighbors are a little worse off, but life goes on. You've got enough power left to make little adjustments, or major ones if you pool with your new pantheon. None of you has the power to rebuild your original vision back to the way it was. Not even combining your efforts with the other members of the pantheon will do so, the universe is THAT mixed.

You watch things grow and change for a bit, then you find that your view is being elevated. Your pantheon is sort of "rising up", giving you an elevated view of the universe that all of you have wrought.

And you become aware of a being watching you. (See below.)


Part IV.5:

The strange being looks familiar somehow. It smiles and waves.

"Hi." It says. "I'm the creator of your universe. Not THAT one down there, I'm talking about the one you originally came from. You were once my Child. I'm here to give you a brief explanation of this next part, and to answer questions. I'll give you the explanation whether you like it or not, but it's up to you whether or not you want to ask questions."

"Oh, and by the way, I'm currently present in countless universes, talking to uncountable numbers of my children. So bear with me, I'm going to appear to be talking to non-existent Demiurges at various points."

"Anyway, here's the explanation of the next part. That universe down there? You're done with it. At this point, you cannot alter it any further. You can watch it, but not interfere. Now it's the next generation's turn. Your children are going to step up and get their own chance to do what you just did. You are going to craft for them an empty spot, a Nothing, that will act as their multiverse. Each child who steps up to create, will get to make their own universe."

"There's one big thing to decide, and that's whether or not to put barriers between each universe. Put down barriers, and you guarantee that the universe that each child creates will never interact with others, and that the creator of each universe will be alone until they finish their journey up the Sephirot. Decide NOT to put down barriers, and you open the door to the possibility of interaction."

"Of course, you can also decide not to craft the Nothing. In which case, your children will never be able to create their own universes."

"Whatever you decide, the cycle continues, and it's all good."

The being smiles.

"Just so you know, I am so damn proud of you all, right now. Seeing you here... Well. Anyway, the floor's open to questions."

[Ravens_cry]

To explore strang. . .damn I already wasted that line.
No,I don't think I will put in barriers. While some of the changes were saddening, my children's world, and their maturity, grew almost immeasurably because of it. They saw things impossible to see within my paltry vision, they met beings unimaginable to me. The real question is, would I create a Nothing at all. I love my children dearly, but I know they are still young in many ways. They never were intended to be part of a paradise, just a world where exploration of the cosmos was possible. This had seemed impossible in my original universe, so I wanted to give them that chance. I am delighted with the results, though some of the happenings in the process distraught me. Some of my children distraught me. Still, if I have been given this gift, what can I do but pass on the possibility to those who I love most dearly?I set out to give them wings, now they shall fly.
Hear you, North Wind, hear you, West Wind. Hear your, South and East.
Ravens Children shall come to greet you, visit you in your very houses.
They are a rough lot, prone to small evils, and great ones.
But they can craft great good and strong change from the iron of their will.
Guard them as I can not, watching as a ghost, as a spirit, I flit through the Multiverse.
* * *

[Mystic Muse]

I take back my original post. I don't create the world because if I can't control the way it ends up it's pointless. next time make everything that will happen clear in the first post.

see you guys in another thread.

[Fiery Justice]

I take back my original post. I don't create the world because if I can't control the way it ends up it's pointless. next time make everything that will happen clear in the first post.

see you guys in another thread.

Ah, but that was the trap wasn't it? Things change and don't go exactly according to your will.

[Lost Demiurge]

I take back my original post. I don't create the world because if I can't control the way it ends up it's pointless. next time make everything that will happen clear in the first post.

see you guys in another thread.

Ah, well. Remember when I said that you can ignore any and or all of the parts that I put out there?

Anyway, thanks for playing. See you around...

[Grey Paladin]

Kyuubi: *coughIWarnedYouSocough*

IC!
To The Creator (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.RageAgainstTheHeavens): "Ever since conception the only thing I have denied to my children is the ability to grant free choice to the living they create - sapience. Otherwise they, too, had the joy of Creation ever since their birth.

You gave our kind the ability to do so and look around! so many other worlds are only there for the sadistic amusement of their malign overlords, their children nothing more than an antfarm to them! only one was strong enough to resist the temptation of creating life - the same one I couldn't handle, and you want me to willingly offer it to my children!?

Why? Why should I repeat your mistake, and let others create worlds as twisted as your own?"

[Lost Demiurge]

The being blinks.

"Well. You don't have to give them the ability to create, if you don't want to. It means that your children will never equal or exceed you, but hey. If you think that I've committed a crime, and that you'd be guilty as well by following in my footsteps, then by all means don't."

The being sits down.

"I agree that it's depressing that some people made antfarms for their own amusement, but that's what happened when I created Children with the closest thing to completely free will. Some chose to do things I didn't like. And when they got some power, they did it on a bigger scale. But though some of their doings make me weep... And some of yours, for that matter... I would not change what I had done."

"Mind you, that's my thing. I'm big on free will, some of you children aren't. Fine, follow your heart."

He rubs his head.

"I see why my Creator chose to leave the equivalent of a message coded in a puzzle behind, instead of doing a personal appearance. I hated him for that at the time, now I wonder if he didn't have the right idea."

[Grey Paladin]

A sigh.

"Despite my disagreement with your own creation and my state of being, you've still given us the choice to try and do it better: for each to attempt and create a superior world free of the flaws of the forefathers. I am not perfect either, and so my world shares my fate.

To halt the endless evolution, to deprive my Children of a shot at doing it better while you have given us the chance to do so, would be limiting the potential of of an entire multiverse.

I could not resist Creation, and my parentage still haunts me here: I shall put faith in my Children and let them grow up."

I create the Nothing without the barrier, in hope that my children are our betters.

[Ichneumon]

I smile and laugh: "So, you are my creator? If I had a creator, I sure would know about it!" (In all likelihood, I wouldn't be surprised if, during these events, I, even only for a short minute, overestimate my own grandness.)

Create others like me? That would be interesting, however I would border each world so that none can damage the others when they make a mess out of it. I would try to teach them to make sure they would create worlds like I did, as that would be "perfect".

That would be the rational thing to do, however, I can imagine I would, after fighting wars for centuries and having crossed into the Elsewhere, escaping doom, I would turn a bit mad, arrogant and irrational and start to taint this unknown figure who just comes here and claims he my father, my creator.

I would demand that he shows and names himself. I would refuse to treat him as my superior and equal at best, but only AFTER he been open with me as I'm not going to accept any of his wild ideas without some proof.:smallamused:

[Fiery Justice]

I roll my shoulders in a shrug, "I have no children. Everything I made was, for all intents and purposes, scenery. It was lonely, but now I have my fellow creators to talk to. And that is quiet enough for me. Since I don't have any children, I'll watch and talk and teach any of them who will come. Do you like my worlds though? I made them for you."

[Lost Demiurge]

The being frowns.

"My name is Demiurge, and I've nothing to prove to you. As to showing myself, I am. To every one of my children simultaneously."

"I see where your mind is going, but I'm pretty sure it's not possible to kill me here. Feel free to pop me on the jaw a few times if it makes you happy."

"A side note on your earlier statement... Teaching your children at this point isn't possible. They're going to develop from this point on their own."

"There are only three things left to you now."

"The first is to figure out whether or not your children have a Nothing, and if so, then whether or not there are Barriers around their creations. I couldn't influence you during the creation process, you can't influence them during theirs."

"The second thing is to figure out what legacy you wish to leave for those of your Childen who become creators. My appearance here, my waiting here for you, this was my legacy. IS my legacy. My creator left a stone monolith that was a cipher puzzle. You can figure out what you'd like to leave, but you've got plenty of time to plan."

"The third thing, is to choose to either keep ascending or stay where you are. Once you will yourself "up" far enough, you'll move on. I don't know what happens then."

"I'll do that myself, after I'm done talking with you folks, here. But staying here isn't bad... You can watch your children, and their children, and presumably your children's children. It's a pretty awesome view, and no guarantee the view up "top" is any better."

[Lost Demiurge]

I roll my shoulders in a shrug, "I have no children. Everything I made was, for all intents and purposes, scenery. It was lonely, but now I have my fellow creators to talk to. And that is quiet enough for me. Since I don't have any children, I'll watch and talk and teach any of them who will come. Do you like my worlds though? I made them for you."

"I do. I like them a lot. None of you disappointed me, but some managed to awe me."

The being strolls over, and looks your works over carefully, chatting with you over the finer points.

[Ichneumon]

This would annoy me, but after thinking it over I would calm down and rationally think things over.

I would want to ascend. I would allow my children, (who are still the philosophical computer-like creatures), to grow and create things in Nothings, hoping they would create things like I did. However, I would create borders, as I see no advantage to not creating them and a lot of risks when I don't, so I will.

I will leave a monument, in the centre of my universe, a big "shrine" which continuously whispers my philosophy for all to hear, so that I can still have an influence on their ideologies and hopefully guide them to a life such as mine, although I of course can't alter any of shrine's text. I also try to seal, if I still have any power to do that, my world, protecting it, isolating it, hoping it might go on undisturbed.

Up, ascending is the way to go.

[Grey Paladin]

Hearing of the legacy, I decide to leave an exact transcription of my conversation with the Creator, for each of my Children to discover when they ascend to Creatorhood in hopes of helping them make the right choice.

On the third point, I shall await until I can see my Children's children's worlds, to judge if I made the right choice.

At that point, I ascend.

[Ichneumon]

Also, I find your username, Demiurge, to be rather fitting.:smallwink:

[Lost Demiurge]

Also, I find your username, Demiurge, to be rather fitting.:smallwink:

((Forgive me the conceit, please. :) ))

[Ichneumon]

((Forgive me the conceit, please. :) ))

You are forgiven. :P

[Ravens_cry]

I hesitate.
Oh my children, you recreations of a long dead race, made in their image, to explore, where we could not. I want to watch you grow, to become more than I ever was. But the same urge to touch the horizon, to see beyond the next barrier, it is strong within me as well. But what shall I leave them? They never knew of my existence. My avatars were ordinary mortals with a keen, but hardly supernatural, ability to smooth tensions and drive progress forward. Though there was a few points where it came close, during the Great Melting especially, they never had a confirmation. I shall compose a song, a song that speaks of their triumphs and tragedies, their loves and their despairs, the utter heights and the crushing depths. And it shall speak of my love for them, a being they never knew, yet who knew them deeply. It will be something like this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80_HKdvNhgA&feature=related)
Then I turn to Demiurge, with twin streaks of silver lining my cheeks, I say,
LET'S GO

[druid91]

I create a nothingness with no barriers. "Whats the point in barriers? it would only limit what they create. I created three together they should stay together." turning to the being " so can I make something up here? like a chair, or a tv? It would be easier to get their news broadcasts with a tv. Besides I think I will be waiting here a while, until I can talk to them again. Who knows how long that will take.... wait, you know, maybe. so about how long did it take to get to this point? one eon, two, three?"

[Lost Demiurge]

I create a nothingness with no barriers. "Whats the point in barriers? it would only limit what they create. I created three together they should stay together." turning to the being " so can I make something up here? like a chair, or a tv? It would be easier to get their news broadcasts with a tv. Besides I think I will be waiting here a while, until I can talk to them again. Who knows how long that will take.... wait, you know, maybe. so about how long did it take to get to this point? one eon, two, three?"

"Yeah, you can make stuff, up here. I had a few things, but I willed them away before you guys showed up. Didn't want to clutter your new place."

"As far as how long it took... It took somewhere between an eternity and a blink of the eye. I don't think getting bored will be an issue. Still, if you find yourself growing weary you can always will yourself to sleep for a while."

[Lost Demiurge]

I hesitate.
Oh my children, you recreations of a long dead race, made in their image, to explore, where we could not. I want to watch you grow, to become more than I ever was. But the same urge to touch the horizon, to see beyond the next barrier, it is strong within me as well. But what shall I leave them? They never knew of my existence. My avatars were ordinary mortals with a keen, but hardly supernatural, ability to smooth tensions and drive progress forward. Though there was a few points where it came close, during the Great Melting especially, they never had a confirmation. I shall compose a song, a song that speaks of their triumphs and tragedies, their loves and their despairs, the utter heights and the crushing depths. And it shall speak of my love for them, a being they never knew, yet who knew them deeply. It will be something like this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80_HKdvNhgA&feature=related)
Then I turn to Demiurge, with twin streaks of silver lining my cheeks, I say,
LET'S GO

"A song... That's a nice touch!"

He takes your hand.

"I'm glad for the company on this. I have to admit... I'm a little worried by what's beyond here. I have no clue what it may be, and I think I delayed so that I wouldn't be making the trip alone."

"But that's neither here nor there. Let's do this!"

[Ichneumon]

"Yeah, you can make stuff, up here. I had a few things, but I willed them away before you guys showed up. Didn't want to clutter your new place."

"As far as how long it took... It took somewhere between an eternity and a blink of the eye. I don't think getting bored will be an issue. Still, if you find yourself growing weary you can always will yourself to sleep for a while."

"Tell me, Demiurge, can we die up here? If not of old age, can we be killed?"

considering some of the gods I fought with might have gone to the elsewhere too...

[Lost Demiurge]

"Tell me, Demiurge, can we die up here? If not of old age, can we be killed?"

considering some of the gods I fought with might have gone to the elsewhere too...

"Age? Meaningless for you right now, sorry. As far as dying goes... I don't think it's possible, but I've never tried."

"You could will yourself out of existence. One of your sisters did that... Poor Kyuubi. I don't know what happened to her, she's out of my sight. I think that you alone are capable of ending things for yourself, no one else can do it to you."

"Personally, I'd rather go for ascension. But hey, it's your existence."

[Lost Demiurge]

Part V.

And so, you choose.

Those who chose not to create the Nothing, watch their perfect, stable, barely-changing worlds merrily go on. There is no goal, there doesn't need to be. People, animals, plants, things... All of these things get by just fine without the potential for divinity.

Those who chose to create the Nothing without barriers, watch as after a time, their worlds send up sparks of divinity as new Creators recognize their potential, and are drawn to the Nothing. With their origin universe safely behind them and still puttering along, they create universes beyond counting, and are just as surprised as you were when they start to mix.

Those who chose to create the Nothing with barriers watch as sparks rise up from their world, and are swiftly channeled into finite areas within the nothing. These new creators don't seem inconvenienced by the limitations that you never had - They go to the task just as the rest of your comrades did. They simply have no peers at any point through the process... Perhaps this influences their work, it is hard to say.

After your choice is made, you have the option of leaving a legacy for those of your Children who ascended to their own creations. One day they will stand where you stand... If you have not already chosen, then what Legacy do you wish to leave behind?

And then comes the last choice. To wait and stay and watch, or ascend further along. Those who ended up in a pantheon have company, at least for a time. Those who pulled their universe into an Elsewhere are alone. Either way, you can still watch your universe. Over time, you find that you can affect small things. Nothing on the scale you once had, and it tires you, but you can still do SOMETHING every now and then. Always, while you are in this space beyond everything, you can feel the option for further ascension above you. Perhaps one day you succumb to temptation, and go see what lies beyond...

Only those who ascend find what lies beyond.

WHAT LIES BEYOND:


You ascend, and feel yourself losing substance as you go. Perhaps you panic, but by then it's too late. You watch as your Universe approaches at breakneck speed, and you see your essence splitting apart and flying to different parts of your creation! And then, you come to a halt as you open your eyes and hear an infant's wail... And realize that the infant is you. You have been reborn into your own universe, the one that you created.

With the last of your Creator's influence and power you "look" around, and see that the other seeds of your essence have taken hold in people, animals, plants, even inanimate objects. They're YOU as well, just with their own perspective. You realize that the part that is YOU will be reborn again and again, until one day when the conditions are right you and all the others shall ascend, and turn the Nothing that you just created into Something.

You also realize, as things start to fade and the needs of your new body take over, that you won't remember any of it. When the chance comes again, you'll rise and start the process all over once more... And you'll come to it bare of all memory of the last time.

You have time for one last thought, Creator. One last statement, or epiphany, or sentiment. It will enter the subconscious of your universe, and act as a guiding force, a commonality for everything in the universe regardless of what they may be. It can't be a long statement, perhaps 10 words or so. Maybe a bit more, if you're lucky.

As your mantle of divinity slips from you for a time, what are your final words?

[Fiery Justice]

Since I decided to ascend.

It was not at all what I had expected. I could feel myself peeling up... and then out. Outward, expanding, touching every portion of the universe. But mortal minds aren't designed for that kind of stress. Unfortunate, really.

As I drift outward, as little portions of me become and are born into the children of my siblings, I have a small time to think and then I realize that I am about to lose my independant mind. I have one message. Not much time. What will it be? For a brief moment, I selfishly considered don't ascend to the last level. But no. I have so little time, so many lives will be changed by this message. So I grope back to the faith of mortality, and leave behind the most brutally powerful command I had ever heard.

You, therefore, must be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect. And then the brother who never made children slipped into them.

[Ichneumon]

You ascend, and feel yourself losing substance as you go. Perhaps you panic, but by then it's too late. You watch as your Universe approaches at breakneck speed, and you see your essence splitting apart and flying to different parts of your creation! And then, you come to a halt as you open your eyes and hear an infant's wail... And realize that the infant is you. You have been reborn into your own universe, the one that you created.

With the last of your Creator's influence and power you "look" around, and see that the other seeds of your essence have taken hold in people, animals, plants, even inanimate objects. They're YOU as well, just with their own perspective. You realize that the part that is YOU will be reborn again and again, until one day when the conditions are right you and all the others shall ascend, and turn the Nothing that you just created into Something.

You also realize, as things start to fade and the needs of your new body take over, that you won't remember any of it. When the chance comes again, you'll rise and start the process all over once more... And you'll come to it bare of all memory of the last time.

You have time for one last thought, Creator. One last statement, or epiphany, or sentiment. It will enter the subconscious of your universe, and act as a guiding force, a commonality for everything in the universe regardless of what they may be. It can't be a long statement, perhaps 10 words or so. Maybe a bit more, if you're lucky.

As your mantle of divinity slips from you for a time, what are your final words?


I would feel cheated at first, but feeling my body disintegrate I could only think of one thing, "in essence everyone is the same".

NOw I think of it, this is a very christian way to look at divinity, with the whol "God is in every man"-thing going on.

[Lost Demiurge]

((That's one way of looking at it.))

[Grey Paladin]

Yay, Karma!

"Do not wait for Heaven's judgement - the world is what you make it"

[druid91]

I stay right where I am. make myself a chair, sit down and wait until the new creators come to find me. maybe eventually I'll make that tv. Looking around to those assembled. "Well any of you guys who go on, good luck."

[Ravens_cry]

I watch for a while, taking my time to compose a piece that describes both my children and my infinite care and love for them. It saddens me to know I won't see them again if I ascend most likely, but the call of the beyond is strong.
I just hope I have done enough, then slowly traverse my way upwards and outwards and inwards to what very well may be my final destination.
<reads spoiler>
I am content, no, elated, in knowing my vision of exploration and joy of wonder will continue even beyond my direct influence, that I will be with my children forever. As I feel it all slipping away, I reflect as best I can on my experiences. Part of me is terrified of the change that is sweeping over me, but with my last spark of divinity, I proclaim out into the infinity, for all my children to hear, paraphrasing a certain boy king upon a lonely rock,
LIFE, WILL BE A GREAT ADVENTURE
* * *
Hunger, hunger. Food FOOD! Want, Want! FOOOD!