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Golden-Esque
2009-09-04, 01:01 PM
"You cannot have Good without Evil, Joy without Sadness.
For without the other, each would be an alien concept."
~ The Paladin Knight


http://www.truegamer.org/images/content/dnd_paladin.png

The Paladin

Supreme faith and devotion are the primary tools of the paladin. Few have the dedication to serve unwaveringly to a cause or deity the way a paladin does, but in return paladins are rewarded with the power to protect, to destroy, to smite, and to heal those as they see fit. The best and worst can be found in the ranks of the paladins; compassionate benefactors of peace and righteousness and vile malefactors of psychotic rage and slaughter.

Adventures
Paladins of all varieties take adventures very seriously. They seldom set out on whims or for their own personal gain. Even a mundane mission is a chance for the paladin to prove their devotion to their cause and deity. Paladins see quests of all sorts as opportunities for growth in skill, swordplay, and personality. However, paladins tend to enter their own element when battling the armies of their foes, rather than looting ruins or slaughtering cows.

Characteristics
Divine power protects the paladin and gives them special powers. It wards off harm, protects them from disease, lets them heal themselves and harm others, and blankets them in its glow. Paladins can also use this power to detect particularly powerful members of enemy alignments and influence, possibly even annihilate, the undead. Paladins can draw forth mighty steeds from their deity’s home realm and imbue it with above average strength, endurance, and intelligence.

Alignment
A paladin must be devoted to a cause. He or she can never truly be neutral, but he or she can choose to side with good, chaos, law, or evil as according to their beliefs. The deity the paladin chooses to worship is less important than the cause, for a paladin takes on the will of the cosmos and attempts to either keep the balance between good, evil, law, and chaos or shift it in the favor of their beliefs.

As a result, all paladins follow a strict code of conduct with which they receive their powers. Breaking this code causes them to lose all of their paladin powers.

Religion
A paladin usually devotes themselves to a single deity, but as mentioned before, it is the cause that counts. Paladins that do follow religion follow the most zealous and influential of gods more often than not, and clerics truly value the martial prowess paladins offer their churches. Though paladins are often not high ranking members of a clerical institution, they are always welcome with open arms as a gift from the gods.

Background
No one chooses to be a paladin. Becoming a paladin is answering a call, accepting one’s destiny. No one, no matter how diligent, can become a paladin through practice. The nature is either within one or not, and it is not possible to gain the paladin’s nature by any act of will. It is possible to fail to recognize this call, however, ignoring one’s own potential and destiny. Occasionally one who hears the call of the paladin denies it and pursues another life, but such cases are extraordinarily rare. Most paladins do answer the call and begin training as youths. Typically, they become squires and sword boys to more experienced paladins until they have mastered the ways of their order with the help of their master. Occasionally, one is called to the ways of the paladin later in life.

There are eight well-established Paladin Orders. The first three are extremely ordered, the second three are scarcely ordered at all, and the final two have very casual orders. The Brotherhood of Order trains its members to unconditionally uphold the law. They are more dedicated in justice and vengeance then virtually any other individual is capable of, and often serve as police and judges. The Order of Honor represents those paladins who wish to uphold the law, but do so while protecting the rights and liberties of their people. They are compassionate do-gooders. The Enclave of Shadows make up an order of paladins who are dedicated to wrap the world in unholy chains of slavery and servitude with themselves on the ladder’s top rung. They are scheming and devious, bent on enslaving the weak of heart and will. The Brotherhood of Freedom is a paladin order that seeks to protect the oppressed and downtrodden. Their order is more of a high court of equals, for they believe nothing good comes from tightly-knit laws and procedures; they are merely tools for evil to manipulate. The Sons of Anarchy take this philosophy one step further and choose to attempt to overthrow all government. The Sons see no benefit in placing people in places of power, so they attempt to assassinate leaders and destroy government all for the seak of “the greater good”. The Slaughter Court forgo the entire concept of chaos for the betterment of people and seeks nothing more than the death of millions and the destruction of everything. They believe only ones who survive through trial and sufferings are worth the air they breathe. The Rose Knights are an order dedicated to spreading good across the land, caring not for law or chaos, but only for the betterment of everyone. The Soldiers of Decay, on the flip side, seek nothing more than the corruption of everything good in the world. The Paladins of the same order regard themselves as brothers; of similar orders as cousins, and as opposed orders as mortal enemies.

Races
Humans, with their ambitious souls, make great paladins. Many half-humans share this ambition and also make good paladins. Dwarf and gnome paladins are rare, because the way of the paladin puts the greater cause before duties to home and clan. Elves of all types make particularly good paladins when they belong to less structured orders.

Paladins are all but unheard of in savage humanoids, for even though the most chaotic and dark souls thrive among savage humans, it takes a formal trainer to make a paladin, and few paladins choose savages for students.

Other Classes
Even though paladins are, in some ways, set apart from others, they eagerly accept aid from those who share their visions. They work well with clerics and favored souls of similar alignments, and they value anyone whose traits coincide with their dogmas. Paladins will never travel with those whose actions and morals go against their own.

Role
The paladin’s chief role is melee combatant. They excel at surviving large amounts of damage, and they have powers that increase their staying power. They can take the role of secondary healer if assisted by a more able healer. A paladin’s high Charisma makes them an excellent party leader.

http://www.shadowtek.net/Forum/adr/images/classes/%28+4%29%20Anti-Paladin.gif

Vital Stastics

Ability Scores
STR - Adds STR to Weapon Attack and Weapon Damage rolls, Adds to STR skills.
DEX - Increases their AC, Adds DEX to Ranged Attack rolls, adds to DEX skills.
CON - Increase Fort Save, Increase HP, adds to Concentration.
INT - Increases total number of skill points, adds to INT skills.
WIS - Increases Will Save, increases WIS skills.
CHA - Add CHA bonus to Smite Attack rolls, add CHA bonus to all saves, add CHA bonus to number of Turn / Rebuke attempts per day, paladin level x CHA = total damage / healing done, 10 + CHA must equal spell level to cast a spell, CHA is added to Spell Save DCs, increases CHA skills.

Alignment
Any, except for True Neutral.

Hit Die
d10

Class Skills
Bluff, Concentration, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Heal,
Intimidate, Knowledge {Nobility}, Knowledge {Religion}, Knowledge {Royalty}, Martial Lore, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spellcraft,

Skill Points
(4 + INT modifier) x 4 @ 1st Level
4 + INT modifier @ all other levels

{table=head] Level | BAB | Fort Save | Ref Save | Will Save | Special
01 | +1 | +2 | +0 | +0 | Aura, Smite 1/Day
02 | +2 | +3 | +0 | +0 | Divine Grace, Divine Resolve 5
03 | +3 | +3 | +1 | +1 | Endurance, Lay on Hands / Deadly Touch
04 | +4 | +4 | +1 | +1 | Turn / Rebuke Undead
05 | +5 | +4 | +1 | +1 | Smite 2/Day, Summon Special Mount
06 | +6 | +5 | +2 | +2 | Divine Health, Improved Aura
07 | +7 | +5 | +2 | +2 | Divine Resolve 10
08 | +8 | +6 | +2 | +2 | Die Hard
09 | +9 | +6 | +3 | +3 | Improved Smite
10 | +10 | +7 | +3 | +3 | Smite 3/Day
11 | +11 | +7 | +3 | +3 | Mettle
12 | +12 | +8 | +4 | +4 | Divine Resolve 15
13 | +13 | +8 | +4 | +4 | Empowered Aura
14 | +14 | +9 | +4 | +4 | Divine Exchange
15 | +15 | +9 | +5 | +5 | Smite 4/Day
16 | +16 | +10 | +5 | +5 | Improved Mettle
17 | +17 | +10 | +5 | +5 | Divine Resolve 20
18 | +18 | +11 | +6 | +6 | Empowered Smite
19 | +19 | +11 | +6 | +6 | Inner Focus
20 | +20 | +12 | + | +6 | Might Smite, Smite 5/Day[/table]

Weapon and Armor Proficiency
A paladin is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).

Aura (Su)
A paladin radiates a powerful aura that corresponds to their own alignment. This aura can be detected using detect evil, or any other similar detection spell.

Maneuvers
A 1st level paladin starts with the knowledge of three martial maneuvers. The disciplines available to a paladin are Devoted Spirit and White Raven. Once a paladin knows a maneuver, they must ready it before they can use it. A maneuver usable by paladins is considered an extraordinary ability unless otherwise noted in its description. A paladin’s maneuvers are not affected by spell resistance, and initiating a maneuver does not provoke an attack of opportunity.

A paladin learns additional maneuvers at higher levels, as shown on Table: Paladin Maneuvers below. A paladin must meet the prerequisites for a maneuver before he or she can learn it. Table: Paladin Maneuvers also lists the maximum Maneuver Level a paladin can use at a given level.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered paladin level after that (6th, 8th, 10th, and so on), a paladin can choose to learn a new maneuver in place of one he or she already knows. In effect, the paladin looses the old maneuver in exchange for the new one. A paladin may choose a new maneuver of any level they like, so long as the paladin observes the restriction on the highest-level maneuvers they know; a paladin need not replace the old maneuver with one of the same level, and a paladin can only swap a single maneuver for another one at any given level.

Maneuvers Readied
A paladin can ready all three of the maneuvers they know at 1st level, but as the paladin advances in level and learns more maneuvers, they must choose which maneuvers to ready. A paladin readies a maneuver by exercising for 5 minutes. The maneuvers the paladin chooses remain readied until the paladin decided to exercise again and change them. The paladin need not sleep or rest for any long period of time to ready their maneuvers; any time the paladin spends 5 minutes practicing allows the paladin to change their ready maneuvers.

A paladin begins an encounter with all their readied maneuvers unexpended, regardless of how many times they might have used them since the maneuvers were chosen. When the paladin initiates a maneuver, it is expended for the current encounter, so each readied maneuver may be used one per encounter until they are recovered.

A paladin can recover all expended maneuvers with a single full round action, during which the paladin prays to their deity for the strength to continue fighting. This prayer does not provoke an attack of opportunity, but the paladin does loose the benefits of their stance until the start of their next round while praying. Although the paladin is no longer in their battle stance, he or she is not defenseless against oncoming attacks; the paladin is not considered flat-foot or prone while performing this prayer.

Stances Known
A paladin begins play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance from any discipline open to paladins. At 4th, 10th, and 16th level, a paladin may choose additional stances. Unlike maneuvers, stances are not expended, and you do not have to ready them. All the stances the paladin knows are available to them at all times and a paladin can change stances as a swift action. A stance is an extraordinary ability unless otherwise stated in the stance description. Unlike with maneuvers, a paladin cannot learn a new stance at higher levels in place of one they already know.

Smite (Su)
A paladin has the ability to imbue their melee attacks with divine energy to smite their foes. Once per day, a paladin can declare a smite attack by rolling a normal attack roll. He or she adds their Charisma bonus (if any) to the attack roll. If the attack successfully hits, the paladin deals their normal weapon damage, plus bonus damage equal to their paladin level.

This attack may only be used against foes who are opposed to the paladin’s alignment. For example, a Lawful Good paladin may use their smite ability against Evil creatures, Chaotic creatures, or Chaotic Evil creatures. If a paladin declares a smite attack against a target whose alignment does not oppose their own, then the smite attempt is used up for the day but the paladin gains no bonuses to their weapon attack roll and they do not deal smite bonus damage.

At 5th level and at every 5 levels thereafter (10th, 15th, and 20th), a paladin can use their smite ability one additional time per day, to a maximum of five times per day at 20th level.

Divine Grace (Su)
At 2nd level, a paladin’s faith and unwavering will grants them the power to more easily shrug off various spells and effects. A paladin adds their Charisma bonus (if any) to all saving throws he or she makes.

Divine Resolve (Ex)
At 2nd level, a paladin’s supreme faith and dedication to their deity allows them to temporarily set aside the pain and hindering effects of injuries. A paladin has a delayed damage pool that allows them to forestall the effects of many injuries. This pool begins at 0 with each encounter. Whenever a paladin is dealt damage, it is added to their delayed damage pool instead of being automatically subtracted from their hit point total. At the end of the paladin’s next turn following the injury, the paladin takes damage equal to the total amount of damage stored in their delayed damage pool, which then resets to 0. Any healing received can either increase the paladin’s hit point total or remove damage from the paladin’s delayed damage pool (a paladin can split healing received as they wish).

Special effects tied to attacks, such as energy drain, stunning, and so forth still effect the paladin as normal and their effects are not delayed by this ability. So, for example, while a paladin can delay the damage dealt by a spider’s bite, he or she cannot delay the poison, so he or she must still attempt the Fortitude save against the poison immediately.

At 2nd level, a paladin’s delayed damage pool can hold up to 5 points of damage. Any damage beyond the pool’s maximum is subtracted from the paladin’s hit points as usual. The maximum damage the paladin’s delayed damage pool can hold increases by 5 at 7th, 12th, and 17th, to a maximum of 20 points of damage delayed at 17th level.

Endurance
At 3rd level, a paladin gains [[[Endurance]]] as a bonus feat.

Lay on Hands / Deadly Touch (Su)
At 3rd level, the paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or greater gains the ability to either heal or cause wounds with a single touch. A Good paladin gains the Lay on Hands ability, which allows the paladin to heal a number of hit points of damage equal to their Charisma bonus x their paladin level. An Evil paladin gains the Deadly Touch ability, which allows the paladin to make a touch attack in order to deal damage to the touched target equal to their Charisma bonus x their paladin level. In both cases, this healing need not be used all at once, and it can be split among multiple uses. A neutral paladin must select either the Lay on Hands or the Deadly Touch ability to receive. This choice cannot be changed and it affects later abilities that the paladin receives.

Lay on Hands channels positive energy and Deadly Touch channels negative energy, so both abilities have adverse effects on undead creatures. A Good paladin can use Lay on Hands to make a touch attack against an undead creature to deal any amount of their allotted Lay on Hands healing as damage to the touched undead, and an Evil paladin can use any amount of their allotted Deadly Touch damage as healing to the touched undead.

Turn / Rebuke Undead (Su)
At 4th level, a Good paladin gains the ability to turn undead creatures, while an Evil paladin gains the ability to rebuke them. A neutral paladin must select Turn Undead if he or she selected Lay on Hands or Rebuke Undead if he or she selected Deadly Touch. A paladin turns or rebukes undead as a cleric of three levels lower would.

Spells
At 4th level, a paladin gains the ability to call on a small number of spells. These spells are divine spells that are drawn from the [[[paladin spell list]]]. A paladin must choose and prepare their spells in advanced, and in order to prepare or cast a spell, a paladin must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell’s level. The DC for a saving throw against a paladin’s spells is 10 + the spell’s level + the paladin’s Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a paladin can only cast a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Their base spell allotment is given on Table: Paladin Spells per Day below. In addition, a paladin receives [[[bonus spells]]] for having a high Wisdom score. When Table: Paladin Spells Per Day indicates that the paladin receives 0 spells per day, he or she only gains the bonus spells that they would get for having a high Wisdom score. The paladin, unlike the cleric, does not have access to any domain spells or granted powers.

A paladin prepares and casts spells the same way a cleric does, though a paladin cannot lose a prepared spell in order to spontaneously cast a //cure// spell in its place. A paladin may prepare and cast any spell they know, provided that the paladin can cast spells of that level, but a paladin must choose which spells to prepare during their daily meditation.

Through 3rd level, a paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, their caster level is one-half their paladin level.

Summon Special Mount (Su)
Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve in their divine crusades. This mount is usually either a heavy warhorse (for Medium creatures) or a war-pony (for Small creatures), though a paladin may acquire more exotic companions through various means.

Once per day, as a full-round action, a paladin can magically call their mount from the plane on which it resides to their side. The paladin’s mount appears adjacent to the paladin and remains for 2 hours per paladin level; it may be dismissed at any time as a free action. The mount is the same creature each time it is summoned, though a paladin may release a particular mount from service (if it has grown too old, for instance). Each time the mount is called, it appears in full health, regardless of any other damage it took previously. The mount also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed (including barding, saddle, saddlebags, and the like). Calling a mount is a conjuration (calling) effect.

Should a paladin’s mount die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The paladin may not summon another mount for thirty days, until he or she gains a new paladin level (whichever comes first), or until the mount is raised from the dead (if possible). During this 30 day period, the paladin takes a -1 penalty on attack rolls and weapon damage rolls.

Improved Aura (Su)
Starting at 6th level, a paladin’s aura shines more brightly then before, to the point where others can feel its effects. A Good paladin radiates an aura of justice and righteousness, granting allies within 10 feet of the paladin a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear and compulsion effects. An Evil paladin radiates an aura of tyranny and slaughter, granting a -1 penalty on saving throws and AC to enemies within 10 feet of the paladin. A neutral paladin must choose to radiate a Good aura if he or she choose the Lay on Hands ability or an Evil aura if he or she choose the Deadly touch ability (this choice does not cause a paladin who is neutral on the Good vs. Evil axis to become detectable by //[[[detect evil]]]// or //[[[detect good]]]// spells respectively; their aura merely takes on the properties of that alignment).

A Good paladin’s aura affects him as well as his or her allies. A paladin’s aura has no effect if the paladin is unconscious or dead.

Die Hard
At 10th level, a paladin gains [[[Die Hard]]] as a bonus feat.

Improved Smite (Su)
At 11th level, a paladin’s ability to smite their foes improves. A paladin who initiates a smite attack against a foe whose alignment opposes the paladin’s on both the Good vs. Evil axis and the Chaos vs. Law axis deals damage equal to one and a half their paladin level (rounded down) to their foe on a successful smite attack. For example, a Lawful Good paladin deals their normal weapon damage + 1.5 their paladin level (rounded down) against Chaotic Evil creatures.

A paladin who is neutral on the Good vs. Evil axis is treated as being opposed to Evil creatures if he or she selected the Lay on Hands ability and a paladin who selected Deadly Touch is treated as being opposed to Good creatures, so the paladin gains 1.5 x their paladin level on smite attacks on respective creatures whose Law vs. Chaos axis is opposed to their own. A paladin who is neutral on the Law vs. Chaos axis must select either Law or Chaos to be opposed to.

Improved Smite does not increase the number of times a day a paladin can use their smite ability, nor does it allow a paladin to use smite against creatures whose alignment are not opposed to their own.

Mettle (Ex)
At 11th level, a paladin can use extreme force of will in order to overcome potentially dangerous spells and effects. Whenever a paladin makes a successful Fortitude saving throw against an attack that normally deals damage on a successful save, the paladin instead takes no damage. A paladin that is asleep or unconscious does not gain the benefit of mettle.

Empowered Aura (Su)
At 13th level, the paladin’s aura grows in power again as it drastically effects those around the paladin. A creature that is opposed to the paladin on at least one alignment axis must make a Fortitude save against the paladin’s aura (DC 10 + paladin level) or be shaken while within the range of the paladin’s aura, and for 5 rounds thereafter. A creature who is opposed to the paladin on both alignment axis takes a -4 penalty to this Fortitude save.

Divine Exchange (Su)
At 14th level, a paladin’s rigorous discipline perfectly melds their Martial Discipline with their Spellcasting abilities. Once per day, as a swift action a paladin may either expend a spell to ready a number of maneuvers equal to the spell’s level or expend a maneuver to refresh a total number of spell levels equal to the maneuver’s level.

Improved Mettle (Ex)
At 16th level, a paladin’s mettle improves. A paladin still takes no damage from successful Fortitude saving throws, and now even if a paladin fails a Fortitude saving throw, he or she takes only half damage from the attack or effect. As with mettle, a paladin who is asleep or unconscious does not gain the benefit of improved mettle.

Empowered Smite (Su)
At 17th level, a paladin’s smite ability improves again. Whenever a Good paladin uses their smite ability, he or she heals a number of points of damage equal to half of the total number of points of damage dealt to the smitten creature. This healing can be used on the paladin or any ally within 5 ft. of the smitten creature. Whenever an Evil paladin uses their smite ability, he or she deals a number of points of damage equal to half of the total number of points of damage deal to the smitten creature. This damage can be used on any enemy creature other then the smitten creature within 5 ft. of the paladin. A Neutral paladin gains the Good paladin equivalent if he or she chose to turn undead or the Evil paladin equivalent if he or she chose to rebuke undead.

A paladin can only use the Empowered Smite ability once per day, and it only effects the first smite attack made (see Mighty Smite, below).


Inner Focus (Su)
At 19th level, a paladin learns to use their worldly hurt to their advantage. For every 5 points of damage he or she has stored in their delayed damage pool (see Divine Resolve, above), he or she gains a +1 to weapon attack rolls and the DC of his or her spells are increased by 1.

Mighty Smite (Ex)
At 20th level, a paladin’s learns how to execute their smite ability as easily as he or she breaths. Once per day, a paladin can opt to use their smite ability in conjunction with any of their martial strikes. A paladin must declare that their martial strike is also a smite attack before they make their attack roll, and all of the normal benefits of a smite attack are added to the martial strike. A paladin can choose to make this martial smite into their daily Empowered Smite ability if they wish. Using a martial smite this way consumes one of the paladin's daily smite attempts as normal.

Tables

Table: Paladin Maneuvers

{table=head] Level | Maneuvers Known | Maneuvers Ready | Stances Known | Max Maneuver Level
01 | 3 | 3 | 1 | 1st
02 | 4 | 3 | 1 | 1st
03 | 5 | 4 | 2 | 2nd
04 | 5 | 4 | 2 | 2nd
05 | 6 | 4 | 2 | 3rd
06 | 6 | 4 | 2 | 3rd
07 | 7 | 4 | 2 | 4th
08 | 7 | 4 | 2 | 4th
09 | 8 | 4 | 2 | 5th
10 | 8 | 5 | 3 | 5th
11 | 9 | 5 | 3 | 6th
12 | 9 | 5 | 3 | 6th
13 | 10 | 5 | 3 | 7th
14 | 10 | 5 | 3 | 7th
15 | 11 | 6 | 3 | 8th
16 | 11 | 6 | 4 | 8th
17 | 12 | 6 | 4 | 9th
18 | 12 | 6 | 4 | 9th
19 | 13 | 6 | 4 | 9th
20 | 13 | 7 | 4 | 9th[/table]

Table: Paladin Spells per Day

Level | 1st Level | 2nd Level | 3rd Level | 4th Level
01 | _ | _ | _ | _
02 | _ | _ | _ | _
03 | _ | _ | _ | _
04 | 0 | _ | _ | _
05 | 1 | _ | _ | _
06 | 1 | _ | _ | _
07 | 1 | _ | _ | _
08 | 1 | 0 | _ | _
09 | 1 | 0 | _ | _
10 | 1 | 1 | _ | _
11 | 1 | 1 | 0 | _
12 | 1 | 1 | 1 | _
13 | 1 | 1 | 1 | _
14 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 0
15 | 2 | 1 | 1 | 1
16 | 2 | 2 | 1 | 1
17 | 2 | 2 | 2 | 1
18 | 3 | 2 | 2 | 1
19 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 2
20 | 3 | 3 | 3 | 3

Enjoy. Please be honest, but remember that I retain the right to refute your logic :).

EDIT: Added Fluff and Vital Statics.

Golden-Esque
2009-09-04, 04:11 PM
One of the things I really debated with this version of the Paladin was the descion to let the Paladin smite any creature he or she was opposed to.

For example, technically a Lawful Good paladin can Smite a Chaotic Good paladin. I wasn't too sure if I wanted to allow that to happen. However, after thinking about it, I saw no reason to change this because I have no doubt in my mind that a Chaotic Evil paladin would Smite a Lawful Evil paladin. Instead, I decided to leave this particular gameplay aspect to the Code of Conduct. In orderwords, if a Lawful Good paladin is smiting a Chaotic Good paladin, there better be a good reason for it :).

Fredthefighter
2009-09-04, 04:22 PM
I like this. I like it a lot. The Paladin trades in its spellcasting for better abilities, better smiting capabilities, and the ability to become a semi-tank.

Quick questions:
1) Does it have the same HD and Skill Points as the normal 3.5 Paladin?
2) Are the fluff aspects of this variant different to other alignment variant Paladins (Paladin of Freedom, Tyranny and Slaughter)?

Milskidasith
2009-09-04, 04:26 PM
I'd suggest letting TN paladins smite anybody who is CG, CE, LG, or LE; otherwise, there is no reason to play a TN paladin (mechanically) because they can't even smite.

EDIT: Also, mighty smite is pretty crappy... 20 extra damage per attack in exchange for probably only hitting on a natural 20 without absurdly pumping your to hit modifier? I haven't done the math, and it *may* work out, but it doesn't seem like it would.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-04, 04:46 PM
My only issue is that this doesn't seem to do much for the Paladin's MAD. Consider making the spellcasting function off of Cha instead of Wis? It's a pretty common thing to do to a Paladin, it makes an awful lot of sense, and it really helps out MAD a lot.

Golden-Esque
2009-09-04, 05:40 PM
I like this. I like it a lot. The Paladin trades in its spellcasting for better abilities, better smiting capabilities, and the ability to become a semi-tank.

Quick questions:
1) Does it have the same HD and Skill Points as the normal 3.5 Paladin?
2) Are the fluff aspects of this variant different to other alignment variant Paladins (Paladin of Freedom, Tyranny and Slaughter)?

The Paladin doesn't trade in their spellcasting abilities; they still have them. The spell progression and list just stay being horrible :).

#1 The Paladin still has a d10 Hit Die. Skill Points remain the same, and skills are the same, except that the Paladin adds Bluff, Intimidate, and Martial Lore to their skill list.

#2 I'm still drawing up the fluff for it, but the idea is that a Paladin is a warrior who dedicates themselves entirely to a cause or a deity. Other then personality and several class abilities (which are defined below), all paladins function identically. It is worth noting that some Paladins (particularly Lawful ones) below to Orders.


I'd suggest letting TN paladins smite anybody who is CG, CE, LG, or LE; otherwise, there is no reason to play a TN paladin (mechanically) because they can't even smite.

EDIT: Also, mighty smite is pretty crappy... 20 extra damage per attack in exchange for probably only hitting on a natural 20 without absurdly pumping your to hit modifier? I haven't done the math, and it *may* work out, but it doesn't seem like it would.

It's not including in this version, but True Neutral paladins cannot exist with this variant currently. With this variant, being a Paladin is more about being devoted to cause or dogma then just worship. A paladin is a doer. It can be argued that a True Neutral paladin could and would fight to maintain balance, but I wasn't sure if I like the feeling of it. You're more then welcome to discuss this me if you'd like; now that you've brought it up, a Balance Keeper does sound intriguing.

Also, Mighty Smite is one of those abilities that can get out of hand really fast. I was thinking about changing it to allow a Paladin to make one of his or her Maneuver Strike abilities a Smite attack once per day. What do you think of that, or do you have any other suggestions for Mighty Smite?


My only issue is that this doesn't seem to do much for the Paladin's MAD. Consider making the spellcasting function off of Cha instead of Wis? It's a pretty common thing to do to a Paladin, it makes an awful lot of sense, and it really helps out MAD a lot.

Forgive me, but I'm still relatively new to the homebrewing scene and am still learning all of the lingo (I just learned PEACH last week, hahaha!). I'm assuming MAD has something to do with the fact that Paladins have a relatively wide spread of required abilities. If that's what it means, I do agree with you that making the Paladin require Charisma spellcasting over Wisdom would make a lot of sense, but I worry that it makes Charisma too important for the Paladin. He or she has TONS of abilities that scale with Charisma. If I were to do that, I'd probably give them Charisma spellcasting with Wisdom modified saves. Any other opinions?

Thanks for all of the excellent feedback so far, guys!

TwistofCain
2009-09-04, 06:14 PM
I like this quite a lot. I've been trying to work out a way to give paladins martial maneuvers. Any chance you might end up doing it for Rangers and Barbarians?

Golden-Esque
2009-09-04, 06:26 PM
Alright, I've just updated the page with Fluff and the Vital Statics. As you can see under "Attributes", I'm hesitant to give Paladins Charisma based spellcasting, because Charisma is already super important for a Paladin. I think I am also going to change Mighty Smite to allow one Martial Strike per day to become a Smite Attack as well. It's less complicated, and it makes it a lot better :).


I like this quite a lot. I've been trying to work out a way to give paladins martial maneuvers. Any chance you might end up doing it for Rangers and Barbarians?
I've been brainstorming this, actually. As of right now, here's the list of classes I want to eventually get around to giving Martial Maneuvers to:

Fighter (Diamond Mind, Iron Heart, Stone Dragon)
Monk (Setting Sun, Shadow Hand)
Ranger (Tiger Claw, White Raven)
Psychic Warrior (Desert Wind, Undecided)

I'm debating on whether to give Barbarians these disciplines, and if I do, it'll only be Tiger Claws. I feel like that one fits them the best. For Rogues, I'm not sure what I want to do either, though Shadow Hand was practically built for them.

My basic idea is that I want to have all classes to gain some sort of ability each level, even if it doesn't have a particularly potent use or if it's extremely situational. Dead levels are no fun :(.

TwistofCain
2009-09-04, 09:21 PM
Those seem like pretty good ideas. I think it would be cool to allow fighters to pick a school or two though. Also, I notice you aren't using any homebrewed disciplines. Maybe give paladins of certain alignments access to Dread Crown (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76218) or Golden Saint (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76150)?

elliott20
2009-09-04, 09:30 PM
Don't a lot of maneuvers function off of skill points? If so, maybe increasing the total amount of skill point they get per level is order?

Golden-Esque
2009-09-04, 09:43 PM
Those seem like pretty good ideas. I think it would be cool to allow fighters to pick a school or two though. Also, I notice you aren't using any homebrewed disciplines. Maybe give paladins of certain alignments access to Dread Crown (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76218) or Golden Saint (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76150)?

I don't know, part of the trade off of being able to use both Spells and Martial Maneuvers was that the paladin isn't the greatest at either of them. They get less maneuvers then the Fighter (who uses the Warblade, from ToB, maneuver progression) and substantially less spells per day then the cleric. Limiting their choice of maneuvers also seemed like a good idea.

Golden-Esque
2009-09-04, 09:48 PM
Don't a lot of maneuvers function off of skill points? If so, maybe increasing the total amount of skill point they get per level is order?

I took a look at Crusaders, the divine Paladin-esque class that was given Martial Adept in the original Tome of Battle. While it's true that the Crusader gains 4 + Int skill points a level, I can't find any maneuvers or stances within the choosen Disciplines that requires a lot of skill points. Never the less, I don't think bumping the Paladin's skill points from 2 + Int to 4 + Int will break the class, so it's a go :P.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-04, 11:02 PM
Forgive me, but I'm still relatively new to the homebrewing scene and am still learning all of the lingo (I just learned PEACH last week, hahaha!). I'm assuming MAD has something to do with the fact that Paladins have a relatively wide spread of required abilities.
MAD = Multiple Ability Dependence. And it means exactly what you thought.


If that's what it means, I do agree with you that making the Paladin require Charisma spellcasting over Wisdom would make a lot of sense, but I worry that it makes Charisma too important for the Paladin. He or she has TONS of abilities that scale with Charisma. If I were to do that, I'd probably give them Charisma spellcasting with Wisdom modified saves. Any other opinions?
Paladins are primarily a melee build. As such, they need Str and Con, and Dex should not be skimped on too much. Everyone would like to have at least reasonable Int for skills, which means now you need Str, Con, Cha, and Wis, and would rather like to have Dex and Int. That's too much. Far too much. Putting all of the special abilities depend on Cha doesn't change the fact that they still need Str and Con, already putting them at three Abilities that are rather important. Allowing them to dump Wis is a very good idea.

Ouranos
2009-09-04, 11:44 PM
I like it. Alot. I've wanted a REAL paladin for awhile, and the closest I could find that even came close to competing with the spell casters like wizards and druids was either to just let a pally have a cleric's full spell progression or a fighter's feats. The base paladin has some neat stuff, but after level 6 all he gains are afew spells and more uses per day/week of his abilities. This however is quite nice, am seriously considering using the Create your own outsider (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=77010 )

Plus this paladin to create my paladin character exactly the way I've always wanted him to be.

Golden-Esque
2009-09-05, 01:24 AM
I like it. Alot. I've wanted a REAL paladin for awhile, and the closest I could find that even came close to competing with the spell casters like wizards and druids was either to just let a pally have a cleric's full spell progression or a fighter's feats. The base paladin has some neat stuff, but after level 6 all he gains are afew spells and more uses per day/week of his abilities. This however is quite nice, am seriously considering using the Create your own outsider plus this paladin to create my paladin character exactly the way I've always wanted him to be.

You flatter me with your kind words, Ouranos! I'm glad that this variant could be useful to someone :).


Paladins are primarily a melee build. As such, they need Str and Con, and Dex should not be skimped on too much. Everyone would like to have at least reasonable Int for skills, which means now you need Str, Con, Cha, and Wis, and would rather like to have Dex and Int. That's too much. Far too much. Putting all of the special abilities depend on Cha doesn't change the fact that they still need Str and Con, already putting them at three Abilities that are rather important. Allowing them to dump Wis is a very good idea.

Thanks for clarifying that term for me, and yes, from your perspective I do agree with you that wanting a decent number in every ability score is a little taxing; not to mention something that no other class has to put up with come to think. I'll edit the Spellcasting section right away to allow for Charisma based spellcasting.

elliott20
2009-09-05, 02:26 AM
actually, let's not forget that because of his semi-dependency on skill points for his disciplines (white raven mostly, I believe), he will also can't dump INT either. at least, not entirely.

though, a large number of Devoted Spirit maneuvers and stances are skill point independent, so it's not as bad there.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-05, 02:46 AM
Another way to look at it, from a balance perspective, is consider the Bard: all his class abilities (beyond Bardic Lore) are based on Cha, including the spellcasting. You won't find anyone claiming the Bard is overpowered.

And from a fluff perspective, it makes a lot of sense, I think. Cleric spells come from prayer and meditation. While the Paladin no doubt engages in these activities, he's really much more the hero, the commander, the champion. His spells come less from prayer and meditation, and more from fervor and zeal. The Cha spellcasting reflects this.

Golden-Esque
2009-09-05, 10:53 AM
actually, let's not forget that because of his semi-dependency on skill points for his disciplines (white raven mostly, I believe), he will also can't dump INT either. at least, not entirely.

though, a large number of Devoted Spirit maneuvers and stances are skill point independent, so it's not as bad there.

That point has been brought up already. I altered the paladin's skill set to match the Crusader's (4 + Int). It also made sense to me because this Paladin has access to three Class Skills that the 3.5 Paladin does (Bluff, Intimidate, and Martial Lore).


Another way to look at it, from a balance perspective, is consider the Bard: all his class abilities (beyond Bardic Lore) are based on Cha, including the spellcasting. You won't find anyone claiming the Bard is overpowered.

And from a fluff perspective, it makes a lot of sense, I think. Cleric spells come from prayer and meditation. While the Paladin no doubt engages in these activities, he's really much more the hero, the commander, the champion. His spells come less from prayer and meditation, and more from fervor and zeal. The Cha spellcasting reflects this.

This too is true, though the paladin does do their share of praying. With this build, a paladin still needs to meditate for their spells and refreshing their expended maneuvers requires praying as a full-round action. However, I fully agree that this particular variant was very MAD as you called it, and so the change has been made, causing the paladin to be a Charisma-depending spellcaster :).

Ouranos
2009-09-07, 02:59 PM
So is this one complete then? This rocks, and would love some more polish and opinions on this guy's work besides my adoration of this class.

Golden-Esque
2009-09-07, 03:27 PM
So is this one complete then? This rocks, and would love some more polish and opinions on this guy's work besides my adoration of this class.

I guess so. I have my bard up right now. He didn't do so hot the first time around, but I got version 2 up and we'll see if that one does any better.

I'll submit it (the Paladin) to the Giant in the Playground Class Compilation thread and see if it gets accepted.

imp_fireball
2009-12-01, 11:44 AM
The Paladin doesn't trade in their spellcasting abilities; they still have them. The spell progression and list just stay being horrible :).

#1 The Paladin still has a d10 Hit Die. Skill Points remain the same, and skills are the same, except that the Paladin adds Bluff, Intimidate, and Martial Lore to their skill list.


You need to mention all of this in the OP. In case you might not already know. :smallwink:

Also, speaking of variants, I originally had the goal of splitting the paladin in to two sub types (or sub tropes, whatever you wanna call them) - The Vessel and the Zealot. The Vessel is essentially the paladin you have up above, in terms of fluff. They are chosen by a physically higher power, like a deity.

The zealot is the flip side - they actually did in fact train in order to become a paladin. Maybe they were taught by a Vessel or another Zealot? They're more crusaders than official paladins.

Additionally, I gave the paladin the option of having any code of conduct - not all LG paladins have the same code (player chooses code, pending GM approval). They all serve different churches which might have different beliefs. Except that the Vessel's code is a little less flexible - they can however redeem themselves by following another deity, which usually involves proving themselves. On the other hand, the Zealot needs only redeem themselves in the eyes of their church but at any point may also become a Vessel (say, if they get a deity's attention, bathe themselves in divine energy, or what have you).

Both paladins can cast divine spells. The idea behind this is that the Zealot learns from clerics, or a Vessel who has been bestowed these powers. Both of them also pray, after all that's how you get divine powers, not just through skill like martial maneuvers or spells. They don't vary much in mechanics, but the diversions in fluff are important (being the main issue behind most paladins, considering paladins aren't ever desired as an optimal munchkin).

The actual thread I made was a little unordered, mainly because I forgot where I was putting things, but reading this thread helped me sort my thoughts out, thank you. :smallsmile:

Golden-Esque
2009-12-01, 12:08 PM
They are chosen by a physically higher power, like a deity.

Well, to be fair, this Paladin hears a call-to-arms from a higher power. Whether or not the Paladin acts on it is up to them. I mean, it's not like a Paladin says "I'm game" and instantly re-emerges all bamf and awesome ^_^. They do have to train some.

Also, I think I only gave the Lawful Good conduct. Each alignment has their own morals, and the Paladin swears to uphold those beliefs on their honor.

Happy to be of service, though.

imp_fireball
2009-12-01, 08:21 PM
Whether or not the Paladin acts on it is up to them. I mean, it's not like a Paladin says "I'm game" and instantly re-emerges all bamf and awesome ^_^. They do have to train some.


Yah, I didn't say Vessels were like sorcerors (in-born awesome). What I really meant was that Zealots train all the way, while Vessels only train to adapt to the situation after they've been 'chosen', so to say. Either case of which could take years. Both character combos are bad ass in any circumstance.

And Vessels have a choice of whether they wanna act or not too, unless your planning on a deity enslaved sort of character.
--------

About Chaotic Neutral Paladins - The brotherhood of Anarchy? Do all CN extremists want to overthrow government? Wouldn't that cause a whole lot of unnecessary suffering?

Here's my take: Call it the Brotherhood of Individualism (or order, sons, what have you) - They believe that man should pursue what he feels, and shouldn't be tied down by rules or social prescience. They aren't particularly prone to helping others, more interested are they in individual rights and the enjoyment that can be heralded from such a life as that. They are a very chaotic organization (not much order going on within... basically, it's 'do what you feel like doing, but you must also be a very good warrior since it's better for us that way and we wouldn't recruit you otherwise'), slow moving, and not very big world movers. Many of them are also artists.

Since they're individualists, they typically despise government extremely; no need to make them over-violent or unintelligent about it. Especially since government in the middle ages pretty much demands serfdom and faith to an extreme - lawful ideals. They are often labeled insane or anarchical for defending themselves and their ideals.

The reason for this is I'm sure nearly every chaotic person believes in the necessity of a civilization unless they're druids, dragons, demons, uncivilized 'savages', or what have you.

Contrast Chaotic Good - Helping others because its the right thing to do. People don't need laws to feel compassion and the need to help others! It's our duty. Many laws are only convenient for bureacrats. I need to be wary of all laws because of this.

Chaotic Neutral - I don't care about helping others. Maybe because I'm apathetic, too cynical, etc. In any case, I'll help myself before I help others. The law makes things less convenient, not to mention life harder for me. Culture wants to mold us into an efficient hive mind. In the tough reality of getting through it all, this actually leaves little room for helping others, sorry.

Chaotic Evil - I don't care about helping others. Maybe it's because it's more fun to watch them suffer! I hurt people because their pain gives me pleasure. I fight the law because order in general is only their to protect the weak, who need to be put in their place! If I show that I'm strong by hurting them, I will be better admired. I may be genuinely sadistic, or perhaps I was raised in a very foreign manner (like Genghis Khan).

I don't want to turn this into an alignment debate. :smalleek:

Just making it a bit more clear as to how I see it.

T.G. Oskar
2009-12-01, 08:59 PM
For one of the few times since...I dunno, ever, I'll have to be pretty blunt and take the opposing side on a homebrew. I usually keep my opinions stored, but I believe that this is an opportune moment to deal with this. Mostly, since I appreciate Paladins a lot.

To resume: there is virtually no alluring reason why I shouldn't go Crusader/Cleric/Ruby Knight Vindicator and call it a Paladin, specifically by looking at this variant. Aside from the late-game auras, and the boosts to the Smite, the former build can pretty much outbuild this version. I'll deal with each point specifically so as to provide with reasonings behind this.

First, the chassis is roughly similar to the original one, something I hold few complaints. I could argue about Will saves, but in theory Divine Grace should cover for them: however, the other proper side was that Wisdom added to Will, and if you're making it Charisma-focused, this means they'll get less Will than a regular Paladin, unless they spend some points on Will.

Second, the addition of maneuvers. This is basically threading on the Crusader's ground and uniqueness (use of maneuvers), but with an attempt to change the unique method of the class by actually limiting the recovery method. I'll be honest with you: I don't like having to see Paladins use maneuvers, unless they get them through an alternate class feature or through Martial Spirit/Multi-classing. To clarify: I don't like seeing Paladins get maneuvers as a forced class feature. However, if your intention is to add maneuvers, I find it odd that you lack Stone Dragon. You see, Stone Dragon is added intentionally to all classes because it works like a "vanilla" school. Since the idea is adding the benefits of the Crusader into the Paladin; why not add Stone Dragon as well, given that this school actually works for strengthening tanking?

Third, the smite. Aside from late-game additions, Smite is roughly as similar as ever, which doesn't help the Paladin's ability so much. Adding Smite to the Crusader was quite retarded, but the Crusader isn't known for their mighty smites, after all. Limiting Smites to one attack per day, which adds almost a negligible amount of damage to the Paladin's damage output doesn't seem to help that much. Reinforcing Smite from the beginning may aid a bit: say, making uses of it last per encounter, or perhaps drawing inspiration from the Pathfinder Paladin which keeps uses per day, but retools the mechanic in an interesting way. Something that really gives some sense to the Smite mechanic.

Fourth, the lack of importance to spellcasting. Half-CL is bad, and you could have at least equaled it to Turn Undead EClrL (effective Cleric level). Character level -3 seems like a good replacement for half CL, given that it doesn't pay respect to what little gems the Paladin spell list does have. For example: Divine Favor, as it currently stands, gains full power at 14th level, when the Paladin gets the chance of getting 4th level slots. This makes Divine Favor, a minimal yet recognized staple of the melee Cleric build, almost worthless by the time you get it, even if it's a luck bonus and thus capable of stacking with other bonuses. With character level -3 CL, it would reach maximum power at level 10, which is far more reasonable. Furthermore, a Paladin gains resistance 20 to a single energy source at level 14th, when a Cleric gets resist 30 at level 11th: this is dealing with Resist Energy, stated as one of the best resistance buffs out there. These are two spells that are present in Core, which are expected to be used as fast as possible, and that could benefit the Paladin better with a change in CL paradigm. This goes without mentioning splatbook Paladin spells, which are respectable in their own right. Paladin spellcasting, I can agree with you, is deficient; this does not mean it sucks after all. Working with the spellcasting could make a much stronger Paladin.

Fifth, special mount. This is a mixed blessing, given that you allow ACFs based on the mount to remain, but it forces a heritage ability that could have done better by disappearing altogether. The good thing about the rework is that it doesn't make the Paladin become the mount's cohort after 10th level or so. Still, the mount doesn't compare to, say, Charging Smite, or Underdark Knight, or even the ACF from Dungeonscape (whose name eludes me), which are insanely good compared to the mount.

Sixth, auras. These could have given a refreshing and unique way to separate from either the Fighter, the Crusader, or the Cleric. As they stand, though, they are lackluster. Pretty, and I must say very, lackluster. Improved Aura is so-so at level 6th, but Empowered Aura is weak by the level you gain it. The only saving grace for Empowered Aura is that it doesn't seem to be a mind-affecting ability, hence Mind Blank doesn't ignore it (but, it still gets affected by immunity to fear, so...)

Seventh, the claim that it works as a better tank. In fact, what it does it add some minor bonuses to the tanking capability of the Crusader, which requires very specific builds. A Crusader/Cleric/RKV can do far, far better given that it gains the Cleric's superior spellcasting over the Crusader's crucial tanking maneuvers. What's worse, the progression grows weaker compared to the Crusader's. And a spell can still eat you alive, not to mention Will spells that become much more effective with time. Even separate, the Crusader and the Cleric work better as tanks since they have other abilities that aid their tanking methods (Crusaders have the same amount of feats than a Paladin does, but has less feat starvation than a Paladin does; Clerics either turn into tanks or summon one from the Outer Planes). There's no specific defining mechanic that tells me "this Paladin could out-tank a Crusader beyond its own game".

Eighth, the capstone. It is, in my opinion, a weak capstone. Adding, at best, 20 points of damage and +Cha to hit seems great...for a 10th level ability, not a 20th level capstone. Worse, it's 1/day, and even worse, you can do a spectacular and perhaps reasonable capstone-like ability by consuming a daily use of one class ability and the only daily use of another one...once per day. And what you do is get a meager damage recovery and some extra damage. Compare to, say, the Warblade or Swordsage capstone, which are pretty impressive and balanced at the same time. Even the Monk's capstone is decent enough, if only because it's actually meant to improve the character after all. I'd say by that moment a Paladin should become pretty much the embodiment of his deity's will by that level.

Ninth, the bonus feats. They could do without Endurance and Diehard: those are not exactly the best feats. Mithral Full Plate or immunity to exhaustion or Warforged could easily ignore the need for Endurance, and Diehard becomes worthless with Immortal Fortitude stance. They could use real bonus feats. The only saving grace is that you don't need to waste a feat slot on Endurance to get Steadfast Determination, which means you can get your Con much higher and pretty much forget about Wisdom. And that means you pretty much have used one of your feat slots, anyways. Perhaps reducing the feat tax on Paladins with real feats could aid.

And tenth (finally), what I actually applaud on your variant: adding Mettle. Ignoring most damage from Fortitude or Will saves is a saving grace. Also, Divine Exchange: it works surprisingly well, but it works surprisingly better for spells since you can recover one 2nd level spell slot, one 3rd level spell slot, and one 4th level spell slot by expending a single 9th level maneuver, then use your full round action to recover it. With some tricks, you can pretty much gain three spell slots without wasting either the maneuver or the action at all (sure, you'd waste Turn Undead uses, but it's not like you'll miss them, right?)

And here's the most blunt thing of them all: I don't see why I should use this variant. This variant feels more like a build than a class by itself, which is kind of a mistake when you're working with a variation of the class. With a mere 5 levels in Crusader and 5 levels in Cleric, then a step into RKV, I could do much better than playing this variant, given that I gain more than what I lose, and I play on the same league as what the variant attempts to do. This isn't meant to make you feel bad, but to consider something of importance: if a build done quite simply does much more than your variant, then there's a problem. Your measurement towards a proper variant should require having it do something that a multiclass build could only dream to do, and not something that you could pretty much replace point by point.