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IthilanorStPete
2009-09-04, 03:59 PM
I'd like some optimizing help on a theoretical build using the Lightning Mace style+Disciple of Dispater for a massive amount of attacks. What I was thinking was go Warblade 6/DoD 8/Warblade5/something else; it doesn't look like I gain anything from being Warblade 12 instead of 11, except for initiator level.

For feats, I have 7 from leveling, 2 bonus from Warblade, I assume 2 from flaws, and possibly 1 for being human = 12 total.
I need:
-Disciple of Darkness, Combat expertise, and Power Attack to qualify for DoD.
-Combat Reflexes, TWF, Weapon Focus (light mace) for Lightning Mace.
-Lightning Mace.
-I assume Improved Critical (kukri), since it explicitly stacks with DoD, although that might be because BoVD is 3.0; would it still stack in 3.5?
leaving me 4-5 feats. I presume I want Improved and Greater TWF; what else is good?

For stances/maneuvers: with Warblade 11, I've got 9 maneuvers (5 readied) and 3 stances. I'm guessing:
Maneuvers:
1 - Sudden Leap (lvl 1 Tiger Claw)
2 - Claw at the Moon (lvl 2 Tiger Claw)
3 - Wall of Blades (lvl 2 Iron Heart)
4 - Iron Heart surge (lvl 3 Iron Heart)
5 - Bonecrusher (lvl 3 Stone Dragon)
6 - Lightning Recovery (lvl 4 Iron Heart)
7 - Dancing Mongoose (lvl 5 Tiger Claw)
8 - Pouncing Charge (lvl 5 Tiger Claw)
9 - ?
Stances:
1 - Blood in the Water
2 - ?
3 - ?

Weapons would be double kukri's, each with the aptitude enchantment, and probably wounding to take advantage of all the attacks I'll be getting.

To sum up:
1. What would be a good class to dip 1 level in?
2. What other feats should I take?
3. What other maneuevers should I take, and how good of a selection is the ones I've picked out?
4. And in general, how I can best optimize this build?

Thanks in advance for any and all optimization support.

Eldariel
2009-09-04, 04:23 PM
First, yes, due to the wording Imp. Critical still works for Disciple of Dispater.


To sum up:
1. What would be a good class to dip 1 level in?

BARBARIAN! Get Pounce, use the other Charge-maneuvers getting Pounce for free, pick Whirling Frenzy for your Rage for an extra attack and go to town. Other than that, Fighter is always good, as is Warblade.


2. What other feats should I take?

Combat Reflexes > Robilar's Gambit > Double Hit. Gives you two hits for everyone trying to hit you. Other than that, obviously Improved + Greater TWF if they aren't automatically granted. Maybe EWP: Kaorti Resin (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031014a) as you can crit pretty consistently.


3. What other maneuevers should I take, and how good of a selection is the ones I've picked out?

Depending on whether you can get Pounce, Bounding Assault and White Raven charges are incredible. I'd also want to add White Raven Tactics personally. Instead of Bonecrusher, I'd get Mountain Hammer from Stone Dragon (prereq traded away) as an "open anything"-maneuver. Roots of the Mountain is a nice defensive stance and the last one I'd go with Hearing the Air.


4. And in general, how I can best optimize this build?

Critical-related effects on your weapons (especially stuff like Prismatic Sphere and such). Ways to get extra attacks (Dancing Mongoose is nice; too bad you aren't getting Raging Mongoose and Time Stands Still), ways to move while attacking, preferably some off-turn control abilities to enhance your flurries, etc.

Keld Denar
2009-09-04, 04:41 PM
Roundabout Kick...feat in CWarrior that gives you a free unarmed strike attack every time you confirm a critical. Since you are using the MOST liberal reading of Aptitude weapon already, then Roundabout Kick (specific to UAS's) would give you extra hits with your Kukiri. Thus, for many of your crits, you'd actually proc 2 extra attacks, which really help you go perpetual. May get a book thrown at you, but then again...you are already going Lightning Mace Aptitude Kukiri, whats the worst that can happen?

Requires Imp UAS and Power Attack though...I dunno how many feats you have open.

T.G. Oskar
2009-09-04, 05:40 PM
For feats, I have 7 from leveling, 2 bonus from Warblade, I assume 2 from flaws, and possibly 1 for being human = 12 total.
I need:
-Disciple of Darkness, Combat expertise, and Power Attack to qualify for DoD.
-Combat Reflexes, TWF, Weapon Focus (light mace) for Lightning Mace.
-Lightning Mace.
-I assume Improved Critical (kukri), since it explicitly stacks with DoD, although that might be because BoVD is 3.0; would it still stack in 3.5?
leaving me 4-5 feats. I presume I want Improved and Greater TWF; what else is good?

I notice a distinctive lack of Stormguard Warrior. Your build should have it; it's awesome. You'll happen to do melee touch attacks with your full BAB plus GTWF, and gain a massive bonus for your next attack. Since you'll need Power Attack, you can get a decent weapon that gains advantage of that (like scimitars, actually!), and go straight for putting several of your points from BAB into damage, which can be subsidized by the amount of AoO you might not provoke (but then again, you'd need something to provoke AoO on the first instance, so it's not that efficient)


1. What would be a good class to dip 1 level in?

Eldariel got it just right. Whirling Frenzy Barbarian (Unearthed Arcana variant) with Lion Totem (Complete Champion) to get pounce and extra attacks. That way, you can replace Pouncing Charge with something else. Get that level right after you finish Disciple of Dispater, or before. Mostly, by the time you get extra attacks, go and get that level. It'll serve you better.


3. What other maneuevers should I take, and how good of a selection is the ones I've picked out?

--Sudden Leap seems a bit meh. It's not very useful, unless you're taking advantage of massive Jump checks. You can change it.
--Claw at the Moon is pretty useful at beginning levels, but later with increasing AC it may not be as useful; the worst you can get is lose one level. Plus, you'll want to get into multiple-attack routines to succeed on your critical hits. You may choose it at first, but later it gets less effective; replace as soon as you can.
--Wall of Blades is a solid counter. If you somehow get a monstrous attack bonus, you get nearly impenetrable defense even if you get hit. Just make sure you save that swift attack for when needed.
--Iron Heart surge: never change it. Very, very, very useful.
--Bonecrusher can be pretty brutal if you have a large Str modifier. A +10 to critical hits means you hit even more, and since your critical rate will be close to 12, it means you will probably get nearly automatic criticals.
--Lightning Recovery, though, isn't particularly worth it. A new chance to attack with a +2 is better to have as a martial script, or perhaps as part of an Initiate IH Vest maneuver. But not as a learned maneuver. At best, it's close to having a lucky reroll...
--Dancing Mongoose is a solid choice. If you somehow get to Raging Mongoose, go for it. Always a tasty choice.
--Pouncing Charge can be replaced if you choose to get Lion Totem Barbarian.

As for the right moves: if for some reason you manage to get four Diamond Mind maneuvers, get Time Stands Still. It is the culmination of your technique, which allows you to deliver several hits in two full-round actions. That's enough chances to activate the Lightning Maces feat, and enough chances to pump Blood in the Water to such levels, you can eventually out-damage a deity through sheer damage alone. Moment of Perfect Mind is a solid counter, because it protects your Will; if you can and later have access to it, don't deny yourself Diamond Defense; it is an excellent replacement by the time you reach IL 15 (you'll be able to reach IL 17, actually) Avalanche of Blades is another solid choice if you go the Stormguard Warrior path; you can simply go Bonecrusher until the enemy fails its save, then melee-touch with Avalanche of Blades, then go and crit your way out with TSS.

Stance-wise, Diamond Mind has a lot of great stances. Pearl of Black Doubt, Hearing the Air and even Stance of Alacrity are great choices. If you somehow get to activate two stances (or just as an opener), Leading the Charge as a starting stance is out-right brutal; you'll deal an extra 17 points of damage per hit at the highest level, and with Pounce that means a lot of times; with Lightning Maces you'll deal just too much damage. What makes it better is that LtC is a 1st level stance, so you can get that and Blood in the Water and replace them whenever needed.

So, I'd say think about getting Stormguard Warrior (though you'd need an Iron Heart stance), getting a larger weapon than a kukri (a +1 aptitude wounding scimitar, for example), and replacing some of your maneuvers with Diamond Mind maneuvers, with the goal of 4 maneuvers (or 3 maneuvers and a stance) for Time Stands Still.

Though, I was wondering...if you have EWP (anything), wouldn't an Aptitude weapon allow you technical "proficiency" with another exotic weapon? That way, you could go something as odd as Kaorti-Resin Elven Thinblades for the heck of it.