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Paganboy28
2009-09-04, 04:16 PM
1) How would you best make a non-caster ranged sniper?

2) Would their damage potential scale equally as other damage dealers as they level?

3) What feats would you consider the most appropriate?


Basically... wondering about death from far far away.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-04, 04:27 PM
1) How would you best make a non-caster ranged sniper?

2) Would their damage potential scale equally as other damage dealers as they level?

3) What feats would you consider the most appropriate?


Basically... wondering about death from far far away.Define "far". There are good damage dealers from 30' all the way out to several thousand(I seem to remember TO getting 16 miles once, but I may be misremembering), and good damage at each range is a different amount, due to the response time and defenses of your enemies.

Paganboy28
2009-09-04, 04:29 PM
Define "far". There are good damage dealers from 30' all the way out to several thousand(I seem to remember TO getting 16 miles once, but I may be misremembering), and good damage at each range is a different amount, due to the response time and defenses of your enemies.

Far enough away that the enemy have issues hitting you... but also close enough that you are not completely useless.

Mordokai
2009-09-04, 04:40 PM
I remembered reading something about homebrew, some time ago. Search turned out this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117903&highlight=Sniper), this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114550&highlight=Sniper) and this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113450&highlight=Sniper). I'm not sure if any of them are to your liking, but it can't hurt to check anyway.

Harperfan7
2009-09-04, 04:44 PM
Generic Sniper Feat
Prerequisites: Dex 13, Wis 13, Point Blank Shot, Far Shot, Precise Shot
Benefit: Allows you to do precision damage out to your weapons range as a full round action.

Eldariel
2009-09-04, 04:45 PM
The only way to do it within the rules is to do a flurry of attacks; otherwise your damage output will be too far behind for you to truly be efficient. That or "Sniper's Shot"-spell that allows SA at any range, but you specified non-magical, so that option is denied to you.

I suggest a Ranger/Barbarian/Warblade/Eternal Blade that maximizes his number of attacks along with Hide + Move Silently + Spot and goes to town with an insane flurry at any range in vision.


If you want a "1 shot"-type Sniper (which is obviously more...loyal to the idea of Snipers), you need homebrew.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-04, 04:47 PM
Far enough away that the enemy have issues hitting you... but also close enough that you are not completely useless.Assuming you mean between 30' and 120', there's a few methods(though many of the better ones require casting):
Rogue, Ninja or Scout/Ranger(with Swift Hunter and Greater Manyshot) with any of the ways to increase your precision damage range to at least 60' and a way of guaranteeing it activates.

Seffbasilisk
2009-09-04, 04:56 PM
Feat: Crossbow Sniper
Prereqs: Proficiency with hand, heavy, or light crossbow, Weapon Focus with hand, heavy, or light crossbow, base attack bonus +1
Benifit: Half Dexterity bonus on crossbow damage, 60 ft. skirmish or sneak attack

AslanCross
2009-09-04, 05:11 PM
I think Rogue/assassin build is the way to go.

You can take levels in Assassin for access to Sniper's Shot (Spell Compendium), a very important spell in the sniper's arsenal. Why? It's a Swift Action to cast and gives unlimited range on your next Sneak Attack.

I once harried my party with a Great Crossbow-toting Greenspawn Sneak with shots coming from over 400 feet away.

Feats:
-Crossbow Sniper
-Able Sniper
-plunging shot is not necessary but adds another die of damage.

Equipment:
-Great Crossbow
-Gnome Crossbow Sight
-Various Hide skill boosting items.

SoD
2009-09-04, 05:15 PM
Archer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75248)homebrew. Hope you enjoy.

9mm
2009-09-05, 09:31 AM
Artificer/Rouge/Assasin works for the traditional view, Crossbow Sniper (dex to Damage) that spell that adds SA regardless of range, Craven, Focused Shot (Int to damage on a standard action; Pathfinder Chronicles), death attack (homebrewed to allow ranged use), bane infustion ect. mechanically though it's a bit on the weak side, as archery gets its power through an ungodly amount of iterative attacks.

Melamoto
2009-09-05, 09:53 AM
Assuming you guys are talking about Sniper's Eye, the only spell in the spell compendium that lets Assassins make ranged sneak attacks, only allows SAs up to 60', not unlimited range. And it lets you make ranged Death Attacks anyways, but it specifically says that they work up to 60'. So even if you boost your SA range to unlimited, you still can't Death Attack; just SA.

Zipding
2009-09-05, 09:55 AM
I have created a sniper Here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=147841)is the character. This I think is a really well build seeing that he can fire over 300 feet with no penalties combined with a hide check equaling stupid

ericgrau
2009-09-05, 12:11 PM
1) How would you best make a non-caster ranged sniper?

2) Would their damage potential scale equally as other damage dealers as they level?

3) What feats would you consider the most appropriate?


Basically... wondering about death from far far away.

1) I'd use the sniping rules found within the hide rules. You don't really need a specialized build; any ranged character with a good hide and a huge distance penalty to spot checks can do it. Though a good build helps. Note that your max range is 10 times your bow's range increment.

2) No, except maybe on single attacks. Bow damage enchantments plus a variety of bane or other specialty arrows work nicely. But that's not the point. Even after you make a shot you are difficult to find. Then you keep making more shots until the enemy dies or runs. If you're in a party consider sniping strategic targets, or sniping the enemy without the party to weaken the enemy before letting the whole party move in.

3) Far shot. Armor with the shadow enchantment and a good hide modifier helps too.

Eloel
2009-09-05, 12:17 PM
Master Thrower & energy damage abuse works well. Palm Throw lets you throw 2 weapons/attack, and the capstone lets your attacks be touch attacks.
Use Shurikens, go Monk/Master Thrower, (ab)use TWF, Rapid Shot, Flurry, Palm Throw. Find a way to increase range, and go to town.

Paganboy28
2009-09-05, 01:33 PM
I was considering either...

Pixie Bow Sniper - decent stats, invisibility and other useful stuff.

Sylph Bow Sniper - caster level of HD+4, invisibility, fairly decent stats


Was thinking base class of fighter to get access to all the archery feats, martial weapon profs, and such.

Zipding
2009-09-05, 04:39 PM
For the character I showed, he started with 10 levels of Ranger to get Hide as a class skill, Favoured enemy, and Combat style. The levels of Fighter were only there so he could get enough feats for the archery. His range is 325ft, his Hide modifier is +54, so he can't be seen naturally, and if I use him as a DM, he would be in a forest, so there is lots of areas for him to hide and use as sniping positions. Snipers are built to have a very long, drawn out battle.

kamikasei
2009-09-05, 05:02 PM
Assuming you guys are talking about Sniper's Eye, the only spell in the spell compendium that lets Assassins make ranged sneak attacks, only allows SAs up to 60', not unlimited range.

Sniper's shot is the very next spell in the book, first level for rangers, assassins and sorcerer/wizards, and lets you make sneak attacks from unlimited range.

Incidentally, I have to ask: what would a non-ranged sniper be like?

AslanCross
2009-09-05, 05:30 PM
Assuming you guys are talking about Sniper's Eye, the only spell in the spell compendium that lets Assassins make ranged sneak attacks, only allows SAs up to 60', not unlimited range. And it lets you make ranged Death Attacks anyways, but it specifically says that they work up to 60'. So even if you boost your SA range to unlimited, you still can't Death Attack; just SA.

It is indeed on the next page. I looked through the book repeatedly when I was building that character. Sniper's Eye is a Lv 4 Assassin spell; Sniper's Shot is a Lv 1 Assassin, Ranger, and Sorc/Wiz spell.

SurlySeraph
2009-09-05, 09:15 PM
There's the Sniper scout variant, which I think was in some Dragon Magazine. It gets Skirmish damage from any distance as long as it spends a full-round action for a single attack.


Incidentally, I have to ask: what would a non-ranged sniper be like?

Presumably magical. Perhaps using some kind of teleportation or portal-generating spell to stab people from a long distance away.

Bad Situation
2009-09-05, 09:59 PM
The 2 sniper PrCs that come to mind when I hear sniper is the Deepwood Sniper and Cragtop Archer. The DWS is 3.0 material though but my DM allows it and it's my favorite PrC.

I know next to nothing about the Cragtop Archer and what it does however.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-05, 10:55 PM
Presumably magical. Perhaps using some kind of teleportation or portal-generating spell to stab people from a long distance away.Shadowpounce, most likely.

Or go with Fling HalflingAlly.

sofawall
2009-09-05, 11:07 PM
Hmm. Am I the only one who sees an unusual amount of Homebrew in this thread? Could it be that Archers are not well supported? Well, at least not supported with things worth taking (stupid OotBI...)

Cieyrin
2009-09-06, 12:11 AM
Define "far". There are good damage dealers from 30' all the way out to several thousand(I seem to remember TO getting 16 miles once, but I may be misremembering), and good damage at each range is a different amount, due to the response time and defenses of your enemies.

I achieved near escape velocity with a goliath cragtop sniper. Optimal? Not likely, but I enjoyed the capability of shooting from beyond the horizon. The only issues at that point is that a) There's no way in hell I can spot that far, even if I lose no accuracy while doing so and b) because of a), you need to start your assault by scrying your target so you know where you're shooting. <_<;;

I'd provide the build but I have no idea where that character is currently. It involved no homebrew or Deepwood Sniper, though the bow I'm fairly sure was based off of a custom composite great bow utilizing the Eagle's Cry bow. If I can find it, I'll post it, for the range was pretty out there. @[email protected]

Eldariel
2009-09-06, 07:53 AM
The 2 sniper PrCs that come to mind when I hear sniper is the Deepwood Sniper and Cragtop Archer. The DWS is 3.0 material though but my DM allows it and it's my favorite PrC.

I know next to nothing about the Cragtop Archer and what it does however.

Cragtop Archer is incredible for shooting far, but generally better with volleys or and doesn't address the lacking-damage problem at all. And yeah, 3.0 PrCs help a lot. Making a Deepwood Sniper/Cragtop Archer with poisoned arrows could actually work, though it'd be the poison doing the killing there (and thus, life would be better with a poison rework).

Hmm, actually, if you could build a Deepwood Sniper X/Peerless Archer 3/Cragtop Archer 4, you'd just need more means to pump up your To Hit roll and you could spend a round Taking Aim and then take Horizon Shot with maximum Power Shot from Peerless Archer. All you need is to somehow make that critical (Hunter's Mercy? But no spells :smallfrown:) and you'd be dealing some serious pain.

Cieyrin
2009-09-06, 11:48 AM
Cragtop Archer is incredible for shooting far, but generally better with volleys or and doesn't address the lacking-damage problem at all. And yeah, 3.0 PrCs help a lot. Making a Deepwood Sniper/Cragtop Archer with poisoned arrows could actually work, though it'd be the poison doing the killing there (and thus, life would be better with a poison rework).

Hmm, actually, if you could build a Deepwood Sniper X/Peerless Archer 3/Cragtop Archer 4, you'd just need more means to pump up your To Hit roll and you could spend a round Taking Aim and then take Horizon Shot with maximum Power Shot from Peerless Archer. All you need is to somehow make that critical (Hunter's Mercy? But no spells :smallfrown:) and you'd be dealing some serious pain.

Ranger level for a wand of Hunter's Mercy and a Wand Chamber?

ericgrau
2009-09-06, 11:56 AM
I was considering either...

Pixie Bow Sniper - decent stats, invisibility and other useful stuff.

Sylph Bow Sniper - caster level of HD+4, invisibility, fairly decent stats


Was thinking base class of fighter to get access to all the archery feats, martial weapon profs, and such.

An invisibility farther away than the range of true sight would be nice, although it doesn't foil see invisibility and it ignores the other benefits of pixies. I mean with that kind of invisibility you can full attack at close range and still usually be safe. Makes for good rogues.

And you can make a decent enough sniper without all that LA. The phenomenal distance penalties to spot, and the massive magic item bonuses to hide make the hide check easy even with the -20 penalty.

Eldariel
2009-09-06, 11:57 AM
Ranger level for a wand of Hunter's Mercy and a Wand Chamber?

See, the OP said "non-caster" so I'm assuming he's trying to do this without magic. Which makes things a lot harder, since basically all efficient things to do with archery involve magic.

wadledo
2009-09-06, 12:12 PM
Soulbow is somewhat decent, and makes soulknives happy?:smallconfused:

Cieyrin
2009-09-06, 12:19 PM
See, the OP said "non-caster" so I'm assuming he's trying to do this without magic. Which makes things a lot harder, since basically all efficient things to do with archery involve magic.

I suppose, but that's so on the edge of being non-magical, anyways. All it ensures is that you get an effective snipe, which is what he's looking for. The rest of the build is all martial skill, so I don't think a little Ranger magic should be that out there, given how Ranger magic tends to be self-buffing of their personal martial skills, anyways. It's not like we're suggesting Arcane Archer or anything.

Berserk Monk
2009-09-06, 12:22 PM
A great bowman prestige class in my opinion is order of the bow initiative. I love the extra damage you can do and how it doubles to 60 ft at level 10.

Eldariel
2009-09-06, 12:25 PM
I suppose, but that's so on the edge of being non-magical, anyways. All it ensures is that you get an effective snipe, which is what he's looking for. The rest of the build is all martial skill, so I don't think a little Ranger magic should be that out there, given how Ranger magic tends to be self-buffing of their personal martial skills, anyways. It's not like we're suggesting Arcane Archer or anything.

Quickened True Strike > Hunter's Mercy > Full PA Horizon Shot at +40 or something (+13 Dex + 5 weapon + 3 weapon focus + miscellaneous bonuses + 20 True Strike) from 2000' (Chain of Eyes-AC as a detector!) to the face for 5x damage!

Some ~+8-+10 Str and we're looking at 1d8+35 damage, which does ~200 damage from just a +5 (Greater Magic Weapon'd) bow. Not amazing, but not horrible either. Hm, let's make it a Large Greatbow (Strongarm Bracers) for 2d8+35 damage, resulting in 220 damage. Then just weapon enhancements and you could be looking at some real damage.


A great bowman prestige class in my opinion is order of the bow initiative. I love the extra damage you can do and how it doubles to 60 ft at level 10.

It's far worse than straight Rogue or whatever. First, it's limited to 30'/60' which is a melee range. Second, it's limited to standard action so no full attack, which means you lose out on Rapid Shot & Haste (so two extra attacks on highest bonus which alone deal more damage than the Precision) and iteratives.

Hell, just plain Fighter Archer deals more damage than the 3.5 Order of the Bow Initiate. It's a horrible class, and it actually requires Rapid Shot for entry even though it can't use it. 3.0 OotBI, now that's pretty good.

Badgercloak
2009-09-06, 05:37 PM
Three words: DEEP WOOD SNIPER.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-06, 06:07 PM
BTW, you can use manyshot for sniping ... you just need an exit wound weapon and a sacrificial lamb.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-06, 06:16 PM
That or "Sniper's Shot"-spell that allows SA at any range, but you specified non-magical, so that option is denied to you.
No, it's just Epic. Distant Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#distantShot)

AslanCross
2009-09-06, 06:52 PM
Ranger level for a wand of Hunter's Mercy and a Wand Chamber?

I shall yoink this idea, sir, and you shall get an Internet.

Eldariel
2009-09-06, 07:11 PM
No, it's just Epic. Distant Shot (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/feats.htm#distantShot)

That doesn't allow Sneak Attack...

Cieyrin
2009-09-06, 07:49 PM
I shall yoink this idea, sir, and you shall get an Internet.

Woo, an Internet! My first one! I feel like a real forumer now! XD

Curmudgeon
2009-09-06, 07:57 PM
That doesn't allow Sneak Attack...
It can if you work at it. Telling Blow always adds sneak attack/skirmish damage on a critical hit, without the usual limits (30' range, no concealment, must move 10' for skirmish). So just score a critical hit.

Eldariel
2009-09-06, 07:59 PM
It can if you work at it. Telling Blow always adds sneak attack/skirmish damage on a critical hit, without the usual limits (30' range, no concealment, must move 10' for skirmish). So just score a critical hit.

...yeah, but we were looking specifically for a way to reliably deal damage at such a range, not for extra when you crit :smalltongue: Sniper's Shot allows SA regardless of range, which was the feature I was looking for. Hunter's Mercy obviously helps too.