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Quietus
2009-09-04, 05:23 PM
I'm looking to make a claw-themed opponent to serve as a foil to my party's "Tooth of Bahamut" themed Paladin, and I want to go with a strength-based, two weapon fighting build. Not the most optimal, I know, but I think it'll serve as a good challenge to my players. I believe Bloodstorm Blade gets their full strength on off-hand attacks, but since I'm discouraging use of that book for the time being, I'd like to avoid using it myself.

Are there any other ways to get full strength damage from offhand attacks, outside of me just saying "It's a gift from his god!"?

Keld Denar
2009-09-04, 05:27 PM
Its not Bloodstorm Blade, its Bloodclaw Master.

And other than that, none that I can think of. The guy in the other active TWF thread proposed granting it as a feat, though which reduces TWF penalties and gives balanced hands for str bonus. Just an idea.

Faleldir
2009-09-04, 05:51 PM
I think the Monk's unarmed strike could be interpreted that way.

Mathius
2009-09-04, 07:11 PM
I'm looking to make a claw-themed opponent to serve as a foil to my party's "Tooth of Bahamut" themed Paladin, and I want to go with a strength-based, two weapon fighting build. Not the most optimal, I know, but I think it'll serve as a good challenge to my players. I believe Bloodstorm Blade gets their full strength on off-hand attacks, but since I'm discouraging use of that book for the time being, I'd like to avoid using it myself.

Are there any other ways to get full strength damage from offhand attacks, outside of me just saying "It's a gift from his god!"?

Roll his damage and attacks behind a DM screen, that way you don't have to tell them anything.

Quietus
2009-09-04, 07:43 PM
Roll his damage and attacks behind a DM screen, that way you don't have to tell them anything.

That's what I might have to end up doing... Monk won't work, as they don't have any of the weapons that would work for this, and Bloodstorm Blade *(Thanks Keld)... I'd like to avoid things I won't let my players use. Of course, DM handwaving really is the same thing, I guess.

ShadowsGrnEyes
2009-09-04, 07:46 PM
Claw themed two weapon fighter? look at the feral template. . . i've got a guy with the feral template in a game i'm running right now. . . it's CRAZY.

Fiery Diamond
2009-09-04, 07:47 PM
Of course, you could just houserule that everyone gets to use full strength on off-hand attacks, but it doesn't seem like you'd like that idea. Personally, I house-rule that when I DM. I like to treat TWF as being almost ambidextrous.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-04, 09:12 PM
but since I'm discouraging use of that book for the time beingWhy? Seriously, why?

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-04, 09:25 PM
Of course, you could just houserule that everyone gets to use full strength on off-hand attacks, but it doesn't seem like you'd like that idea. Personally, I house-rule that when I DM. I like to treat TWF as being almost ambidextrous.

Bad idea. It effectively allows them double the damage output of a Power Attacker build.

If you don't apply Power Attack and assume every attack hits for average damage, TWFing ends up being slightly stronger. Allowing full Str on both attacks improves TWFing to the point that it exceeds Two-Handed combat. Think about it, the Two-Handers are dealing 2d6+Str.5+Enhancements, while the TWFers are doing 2d8 (Longswords)+(Str*2)+Double Enhancements.

BTW, this difference also applies to Power Attack. Whereas the Charger build is getting a *14 multiplier for his PA tradeoff, the TWFer is getting *7 on each attack. 7 attacks/round at half multiplier compared to 4 attacks/round at full multiplier. The difference is slightly in favor of the Two-Hander, unless the TWFer gets an extra attack for any possible source. Seeing as TWFers often have a good Dex modifier, they're able to get that extra attack off of Combat Reflexes, and probably a good deal more. The difference ends up favoring the TWFer.

woodenbandman
2009-09-04, 10:12 PM
For the cost of 3 feats I'd expect my attack to be stronger than an attack with a cost of no feats.

Plus 2hw is easier to boost base damage and the feats you save can help you get, say, shock trooper. Overall, I'd call it a fair trade.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-04, 10:38 PM
For the cost of 3 feats I'd expect my attack to be stronger than an attack with a cost of no feats.

Plus 2hw is easier to boost base damage and the feats you save can help you get, say, shock trooper. Overall, I'd call it a fair trade.

Good point. Forgot about the feat costs. It evens it out a bit.

Quietus
2009-09-04, 11:21 PM
Why? Seriously, why?

Because I don't have a copy of the book, mostly.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-04, 11:28 PM
Because I don't have a copy of the book, mostly.

Get it now! Tome of Battle is regarded as one of the best books for 3.5 players, and an excellent tool for DMs who want a customized enemy who can challenge the players. Even adding Martial Study to your average Orcs in place of their normal feat is enough to turn them into viable opponents to challenge a low-level party. Never mind the potential power a Balor may have with Warblade levels.

Seriously, buy that book. Have your players pitch in if needed, just get them a copy of that book.

Glyde
2009-09-05, 01:16 AM
Homebrew. Every campaign that I DM or that I can talk the DM into doing it allows full strength on the off-hand attack along with the TWF feat.

Quietus
2009-09-05, 01:47 AM
Get it now! Tome of Battle is regarded as one of the best books for 3.5 players, and an excellent tool for DMs who want a customized enemy who can challenge the players. Even adding Martial Study to your average Orcs in place of their normal feat is enough to turn them into viable opponents to challenge a low-level party. Never mind the potential power a Balor may have with Warblade levels.

Seriously, buy that book. Have your players pitch in if needed, just get them a copy of that book.

I struggle to keep myself fed lately, work's been bad. My money available for additional sourcebooks... is nonexistent.

Thurbane
2009-09-05, 02:48 AM
Get it now! Tome of Battle is regarded as one of the best books for 3.5 players, and an excellent tool for DMs who want a customized enemy who can challenge the players.
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times...

ToB - you either love it, or loathe it. :smallbiggrin:

daggaz
2009-09-05, 02:52 AM
Just give him the bloodclaw thing. Never did understand this concept that if the DM uses it, the players can too, or if the players have it, the DM must use it against them as well. The DM gets to NPC a solar if he wants to, would you ever let your players be a solar? Or a dragon? Or even a lowly choker? Nope. As well, sometimes a character will take a combination that helps them out greatly (cuz they are otherwise weak or something), but in the hands of the DM could oneshot the party. The DM certainly doesnt need to and really shouldnt then oneshot the party. Really, whats the problem?

Quietus
2009-09-05, 03:52 AM
Just give him the bloodclaw thing. Never did understand this concept that if the DM uses it, the players can too, or if the players have it, the DM must use it against them as well. The DM gets to NPC a solar if he wants to, would you ever let your players be a solar? Or a dragon? Or even a lowly choker? Nope. As well, sometimes a character will take a combination that helps them out greatly (cuz they are otherwise weak or something), but in the hands of the DM could oneshot the party. The DM certainly doesnt need to and really shouldnt then oneshot the party. Really, whats the problem?

The thing is, I'm trying to stay within the rules as part of an effort to show the other DMs in my group that running with splatbooks - the Complete series, namely - won't immediately turn your game into a wild race of shenanigans that will turn every character present into a snarling munchkin within three sessions. Yes, some of the people I play with have this belief. Breaking the rules just to get the effect I want somewhat undermines this effort.

ericgrau
2009-09-05, 11:38 AM
I believe natural claws get full strength bonus for both hands.

Kylarra
2009-09-05, 11:47 AM
I believe natural claws get full strength bonus for both hands.Yep, but then he wouldn't have iterative attacks since that's just a flat two [claw] attacks at highest BAB + whatever secondary natural weapons at -5.

Could be a kobold though (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a). :smalltongue:

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-05, 01:06 PM
I struggle to keep myself fed lately, work's been bad. My money available for additional sourcebooks... is nonexistent.

Got some spare books? You can photo-copy Tome of Magic's Binder section and then sell the actual book (who actually plays a truenamer or a Shadowcaster?). I wouldn't try it with Complete Psionics, just because most people know what makes it a poor book. But if you have the Core 3, you can actually sell those (seeing as they are online, save for a few small parts like WBL and XP charts).

DragoonWraith
2009-09-05, 02:44 PM
Got some spare books? You can photo-copy Tome of Magic's Binder section and then sell the actual book (who actually plays a truenamer or a Shadowcaster?). I wouldn't try it with Complete Psionics, just because most people know what makes it a poor book. But if you have the Core 3, you can actually sell those (seeing as they are online, save for a few small parts like WBL and XP charts).
Technically, that's just as illegal as sharing the books on a torrent site or some such.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-05, 02:56 PM
The difference ends up favoring the TWFer.
They are spending feats on it, so ...

BTW, you know the races of all your players ... you can just give him ranger levels, bonus damage and TWF are made for each other.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-05, 03:03 PM
Technically, that's just as illegal as sharing the books on a torrent site or some such.

If you sell the photocopied portion or distribute it. If you keep it for personal use, and paid for the original book, there's nothing the government can do about it.

Gerbah
2009-09-05, 09:47 PM
Well, there is, in fact, that exact feat available if you want to take it from Pathfinder (essentially D&D 3.75, folks either love/hate it). The SRD entry for it is here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/Home/feats/double-slice-combat---final).

That's a way of it if you don't want to just homebrew/make up something or go through prestige classes. Pathfinder has some fairly nifty feats, but some kinda dumb ones too.