Druids, Broken to the point of silly?

[Diamondeye]

So your non Core Fighter is being compared to a Core AC?

Time to break out the Fleshraker.

My non-core fighter is being compared to a very specific animal companion that Pharoh's fist came up with, which happens to be a brown bear. I specifically said that I wasn't creating this fighter to support Giacomo's arguments. It's just for the purpose of exploring it a little bit further. Whipping out the cheesiest animal companion you can find doesn't prove very much; a fleshraker may not even exist in many campaign worlds. A brown bear is much more pedestrian and a much better basis for a level 8 comparison, core or not.

[stenver]

Please give us a core level 1 battle between AC and fighter. The druid is out in the wilds, charming nymphs. Only AC and fighter. Core. GO

[Pharaoh's Fist]

What she said. If I see a base of 18, that should include any permenant increases as in from levelling up.

You people could have just asked me :(

Started with a 16 in Wis, 18 in Con before racial adjustments.

[Diamondeye]

Please give us a core level 1 battle between AC and fighter. The druid is out in the wilds, charming nymphs. Only AC and fighter. Core. GO

I think you just volunteered.

[Kylarra]

Please give us a core level 1 battle between AC and fighter. The druid is out in the wilds, charming nymphs. Only AC and fighter. Core. GOLevel 1 is kind of a bad level for that because, like high levels, you're just playing rocket launcher tag.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Technically, everyone who reads this post has just lost. The game.

Lost the game?

[Yukitsu]

Technically, everyone who reads this post has just lost. The game.

My post? How much do I lose for writing it? :smallwink:

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Please give us a core level 1 battle between AC and fighter. The druid is out in the wilds, charming nymphs. Only AC and fighter. Core. GO

Are you going to be the fighter or the AC?

[9mm]

urge to make completely ridiculous (as in silly) build rising...

screw it.

human fighter level 11:

stat priority str > con > dex > Wis > Int > Cha
1st:ewe:boomerang, TWF, Improved shield bash
2nd: Power attack
3rd: brutal throw
4th:improved bullrush
6th Boomerang daze, pushback
8th: quick draw
9th: boomerang richoshay
10th: power throw

tatics: use boomerangs to keep opponent dazed for as long as possible, using shield bash+pushback to drive anything that gets into melee out of melee and back into getting pummeled with boomerangs.

items: belt of battle, returning enhancement, bashing enhancement, anything that boosts the damage of the boomerang

Potential build tweaks, putting off brutal throw/power throw untill later and focusing on pushback and grabbing quick draw at 6th.

Recomended dips: Barbarian, warblade, bloodstorm blade

recomended AFCs/alternate races: Strongheart halfing, sliverbow human (taking DragonHusk AFC)


yeah, I'd put that up against an AC and be relatively confident in my ability to survive, including a fleshraker.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Ah, but for it to mean anything, you'd have to do it in core.

[Yukitsu]

More importantly, you're 10 levels too high to fit into the level 1 challenge that was thrown down.

[Flickerdart]

Here's a fairly decent Fighter:

Orc Fighter 1
Stat priority: STR > DEX > CON > whatever
Feats: Imp. Init, Combat Reflexes
Weapon: Halberd Glaive, armour spikes.

Strategy: win initiative, charge, bring on the pain. Bring on some more pain from the AoO when the AC closes in to attack. If it's not dead from these two attacks and you're not dead from its attack, 5ft step back on your turn and smack it again. It's probably dead now. Patch up your wounds and hope the Druid doesn't come back.

If you lose initiative, Combat Reflexes still lets you make an AoO when the AC closes in, giving you a chance to drop it before it reaches you, instead of the two chances you'd get otherwise.

[Sinfire Titan]

Here's a fairly decent Fighter:

Orc Fighter 1
Stat priority: STR > DEX > CON > whatever
Feats: Imp. Init, Combat Reflexes
Weapon: Halberd, armour spikes.

Strategy: win initiative, charge, bring on the pain. Bring on some more pain from the AoO when the AC closes in to attack. If it's not dead from these two attacks and you're not dead from its attack, 5ft step back on your turn and smack it again. It's probably dead now. Patch up your wounds and hope the Druid doesn't come back.

If you lose initiative, Combat Reflexes still lets you make an AoO when the AC closes in, giving you a chance to drop it before it reaches you, instead of the two chances you'd get otherwise.

Halberds aren't reach weapons.

[9mm]

More importantly, you're 10 levels too high to fit into the level 1 challenge that was thrown down.

initial challange was a level 1, 4, 7, or 11 fighter. That build is covers all of them.


Ah, but for it to mean anything, you'd have to do it in core.

Core-only fighters suck monkey nuts, there isn't enough synergistic feats to actually make a fighter capable of doing more than basic tripping. screw core-only.

[Bayar]

An orc fighter at level 1 dual wielding a Greatsword and armor spikes or Spiked chain and armor spikes ?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Core-only fighters suck monkey nuts, there isn't enough synergistic feats to actually make a fighter capable of doing more than basic tripping. screw core-only.

Tell that to Giacomo :smallwink:

[Dublock]

initial challange was a level 1, 4, 7, or 11 fighter. That build is covers all of them.



Core-only fighters suck monkey nuts, there isn't enough synergistic feats to actually make a fighter capable of doing more than basic tripping. screw core-only.

And yet someone wanted to argue otherwise, hint why the challenge. Now why doesn't that someone want to back-up his own posts in saying that the fighter can hold his own, ask him. So Core only.

[stenver]

I have never played a druid (although i plan on doing so whenever the next game comes up), i have played plenty of fighters (as those are asy and fast to make, if a random game pops up). So i would be better doing a fighter. But as such, someone was faster then me.

And changing his halbender to a longspear should fix Flickendart error, no?

But since everyone is so convinced that core fighters suck ass, then lets stick with 9mm build.

Put up a non-core AC against him (preferably non dinos, as i dont think DM would ever allow that) and give us what you got.

The druid is now in the forest mating with another bear, so he still cant help his hungry AC

[SilveryCord]

I am so confused. Is there even an argument that core fighter is as good as core druid?

[Yuki Akuma]

Halberds aren't reach weapons.

...

Why the hell not?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I am so confused. Is there even an argument that core fighter is as good as core druid?

Yes, by Giacomo.

[stenver]

No there is an argument if core fighter is as good as core druid AC

or non core fighter is as good as non core AC

Id like answer to both, to tell you the truth

[Pharaoh's Fist]

...

Why the hell not?


Halberd
If you use a ready action to set a halberd against a charge, you deal double damage on a successful hit against a charging character.

You can use a halberd to make trip attacks. If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the halberd to avoid being tripped.

Because the rules say so.

[stenver]

i can start making fighters tomorrow, as of right now, i am too tired.

[Yuki Akuma]

Because the rules say so.

...Well yeah, I get that, but...

Why did the designers decide halberds aren't reach weapons? They're polearms. The whole point of polearms is that they're longer than swords.

And the naginata is a reach weapon, and it's the same length and wielded the same way as a halberd...

What the hell?

[Yukitsu]

"balance" reasons, in that no martial weapon can have more than a certain quota of neat tricks up its sleave.

[Flickerdart]

Bah, I could have sworn they were. Fine, a glaive. Or a ranseur, or a guisarme, or a lance. It doesn't really even matter.

[SilveryCord]

Depends on if they get wealth or not. If not, a raging badger poses quite the threat ;)

[Sinfire Titan]

...Well yeah, I get that, but...

Why did the designers decide halberds aren't reach weapons? They're polearms. The whole point of polearms is that they're longer than swords.

And the naginata is a reach weapon, and it's the same length and wielded the same way as a halberd...

What the hell?

Tridents aren't reach weapons either. Basically, the Devs are horrible about consistency.

[9mm]

No there is an argument if core fighter is as good as core druid AC
Answer: maybe depending on gear, if the gear can make up for the AC's inate abilities that at low level = a fighter's primary combat trikcs and at higher levels often > a fighter's tricks then the fighter can win, if not, no


or non core fighter is as good as non core AC


Answer: Yes, because the fighter now actually can have multiple combat tricks that can keep up with an AC's and gear plows fighters past what an AC can do without help from the druid; once the druid gets involved however the druid can make up for the lack of gear through buffs.

[Eldariel]

Level 1 point buy Fighter with a good build could probably beat the AC. However the AC has more HD. Which means more everything. It really comes down to Fighter's better attacks vs. AC's better Armor Class.

Say, Riding Dog:
13 HP (2 HD)
19 AC (16 base + Studded Leather Barding)
40' movement speed
+3 attack for 1d6+3 and free Trip

And skills and whatnot.


Fighter most likely has 16 AC (14 Dex, Scale Mail), +5 attacks (18 Str, +1 BAB), 12 HP. If he uses Shield and gives up some offense, he'll have 18 AC. Tower Shield is obviously pretty poor since the To Hit is bigger problem for the Fighter. Elite Array Fighter though... (either loses 1 HP or 1 point of AC, either way loses 2 points of To Hit and damage, putting him behind on all counts except damage). But yeah, Fighter's full 1st HD keeps him afloat.


At level 11, you wanted a Fleshraker (this is kinda bad a level for Fleshraker; they're 1 level from the next level-ups)? +4 HD so we're talking about an 8 HD Fleshraker. Psychic Reformation used earlier, it's got Power Attack, Multiattack, Leap Attack. All its natural weapons are enhanced by a Druid using Beads of Karma for morning buffs, +3 Greater Magic Fang, Superior Resistance, Venomfire. It also has a +1 Mithril Chain Shirt Barding (5k) and some variety of Air Walk (can probably be assumed to be on; obviously taught to use it) and Extended Barkskin. Level-up stat put to Str (so 20 Str, 21 Dex, 15 Con, 2 Int, 14 Wis, 14 Cha). +2 Str Belt for 22 total.

This gives it +6 BAB, +6 Str, +3 weapons for +15. Tail and Bite take -2. Damage at 1d4+6+15d6 on Claws, 1d6+3 Bite and 1d6+3+15d6 Tail. Saves at +6/+6/+2 base, applying +5 Dex, +2 Con and +2 Wis, along with Superior Resistance and Devotion for Will. +14 Fort, +17 Ref, +10 (+4 vs. enchantment) Will. AC 10+5 Dex+5 Armor+10 Natural Armor+4 Natural Enhancement = 34. I'm assuming we're only factoring in long-term buffs? 'cause Animal Growth would be pretty good, but probably kinda overkill. Meh, seems like a decent match to a Fighter anyways.


Natural Bond could be used for a 10 HD Fleshraker with Shock Trooper/Leap Attack, but meh.

[Flickerdart]

I forget, do ACs use regular people stats or 11 11 11 10 10 INT 2? Because if so, the Fighter's advantage at earlier levels skyrockets.

[Kelpstrand]

So can anyone at all actually meet the challenge?

A level 1-11 32 PB build. Will be tested at the listed levels. Core only. ACs will be Core animal and non core animal with Core feats at each level.

Will be compared against CR appropriate encounters, not in a fight against each other.


I forget, do ACs use regular people stats or 11 11 11 10 10 INT 2? Because if so, the Fighter's advantage at earlier levels skyrockets.

ACs use animal stats. They start at 11/11/11/11/11/11, and then are adjusted based on racial modifiers. Like all monsters.

[Kylarra]

I forget, do ACs use regular people stats or 11 11 11 10 10 INT 2? Because if so, the Fighter's advantage at earlier levels skyrockets.Eh, they use the normal 10/11 array, but with racials it isn't /that/ bad for what they do.

Wolf for example has: Str 13, Dex 15, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6

[Sir Giacomo]

The discussion has apparently moved on to focus on a fascinating comparison on fighters and Animal Companions. Will think up a core fighter to be compared to a core animal companion of levels 1,4,7 and 11 as originally asked for by Kelpstrand.
I guess our differences can only be settled by more data and playtesting.

Meanwhile, trying to clarify ...


Core was broken from the get go, Giacomo. You seriously think the Wizard, Druid, and Cleric are perfectly balanced inside Core? The best spells in the game (you know, the actual Game Breakers?) are Core. Time Stop, Shapechange (the MM is Core, believe it or not), Gate, this is just the tip of the iceberg (granted, the very peak of power, but these are three major offenders).

I notice that you list 3 9th level spells as supporting your case that the core system is broken. Do you realise what wbl yields by level 17 also for non-casters? That the brokenness of spells can also come from misinterpretation of what these spells really do?


....How does that help against a Great Wyrm?

er... is a great wyrm an animal? Last time I checked it has the dragon type. There may be a non-core option for the druid you refer to here, but in core, hide from animal affects all animal companions. I do not know what is more of a surprise for me - that this is utterly irrelevant for what I said or that after 2-3 more pages I am the first to point out this obvious mistake.


Oh sure, a Fighter with access to Polymorph is completely on-par with a Druid. Never mind the fact that the Druid also has:

Other magic items that do things, several of which the Fighter cannot use (Rod of Quicken Spell, for example).

And the fighter can use magic items that the druid cannot use (mithral full plate of speed, for instance). Your point being?
Plus, rod of quicken comes up only in high-level play where non-casters also get access to powerful magic.


9th level spellcasting abilities, along with a minimum of 50 spells/day.

Yes, if only the 50 spells/DAY would actually apply (and not just mean, "ah, cast whatever you like, you can rest without any problem and regain the spells automatically"). But again, I see that you try to base the core-broken-argument on the highest levels only.


The ability to turn into things Polymorph cannot, such as plants or Elementals, or Huge sized- creatures.

Wait...weren't you among those who said wildshape should not be banned as polymorph since polymorph is vastly superior? But I might be mistaken (still, oddly, no-one else objected this).


An Animal Companion, essentially an ever-loyal meatshield who will never need a Rez spell. EVER.

Is it immortal? Remember that you need to get another one by praying for 24 hours UNINTERRUPTED, plus need the DM's approval (is the area right for the AC you wish to attract?). Quite tough for most adventures, I daresay. The casting time for ressurection is faster although it really IS certainly more expensive.:smallsmile:


4+Int modifier skills.

A clear druid advantage!


The ability to completely neglect their Str and Dex scores from level 9 onward (level 5 if they avoid ever getting into melee, and level 1 if they are really effing smart).

You mean to tell me a Core Fighter using a Wand of Polymorph is on par with all of that?

Again confusion - is wildshape more powerful than polymorph or not? And ... are you really prepared for a fighter-turned-treant or other atrocity?:smallamused:

- Giacomo

[Yuki Akuma]

How exactly do you misinterpret Time Stop.

I mean, really, Giacomo, you're reaching here.

Time Stop breaks the action economy into tiny little pieces. That's why it's broken.

Yes, Wildshape is better than Polymorph. It lasts hours/level instead of minutes/level, for a start. And it lets you transform into things Polymorph doesn't let you transform into.

[quick_comment]

It also is not dispellable

[Doc Roc]

I'll GM. Test of Spite Rules, core and completes only. MMI, MMIII. MiC, SpC.

No custom items, no partially charged wands.

Levels:
2,4,8,12

Thread for L8 is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6882949#post6882949). Post links to sheets when ready

[Yuki Akuma]

It also is not dispellable

Well, no. It's instantaneous, after all. From the perspective of everyone else anyway.

[quick_comment]

Well, no. It's instantaneous, after all. From the perspective of everyone else anyway.

I meant wildshape, not timestop.

[Sir Giacomo]

For comparisons involving my fighter build core rules only please- since that is the rules environment that I refer to in this case.

Levels 2,4,8,12 is OK.

no partiallly charged wands is OK.

I guess then polymorph is OK since wildshape goes (but we can leave it out imo for the AC and fighter comparisons first.)

- Giacomo

[Yuki Akuma]

I meant wildshape, not timestop.

>.>

Oh.

Well, you can't enter an Anti-Magic Field with Wildshape up and expect to stay in animal form, at least, so that's something...

But then, that means that a fifth-level class feature can only be trumped by spellcasters of at least level eleven. So...

[Pyron]

And ... are you really prepared for a fighter-turned-treant ...

Wouldn't the fighter just get marked as the animal companion's territory? :smallwink:

[Doc Roc]

Okay, the thread is up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6882949#post6882949).
Please PM me your characters, or submit them to the ToS sheet readers. I'm tired of debates with no actual testing behind them. I think seven trials is probably enough. No super-mount shenanigans, as we're running ToS rules.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

For comparisons involving my fighter build core rules only please- since that is the rules environment that I refer to in this case.

Levels 2,4,8,12 is OK.

no partiallly charged wands is OK.

I guess then polymorph is OK since wildshape goes (but we can leave it out imo for the AC and fighter comparisons first.)

- Giacomo

I already have a level 8 build.

[Doc Roc]

ToS rules ban polymorph.

[Asheram]

ToS rules ban polymorph.

Such a shame. The note of Baleful Polymorph "All items worn or carried by the subject fall to the ground at its feet, even if they could be worn or carried by the new form." sounds like a lot of fun to use against a fighter

[Doc Roc]

Such a shame. The note of Baleful Polymorph "All items worn or carried by the subject fall to the ground at its feet, even if they could be worn or carried by the new form." sounds like a lot of fun to use against a fighter

Polymorph is just too much trouble. Prolly 40% of all game-breaks hinge on a polymorph style effect.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Tide, do you see Polymorph as more broken than Wildshape, or vice versa.

[Yuki Akuma]

Polymorph is just too much trouble. Prolly 40% of all game-breaks hinge on a polymorph style effect.

Like...

Wildshape?

[Doc Roc]

I ban both, for a wide variety of reasons. If you'd like, I can link you to some tricks.

Like Alter self, wildshape, metamorphosis, shapechange, polymorph any object, polymorph... There are others, but... These are the problem children of D&D, the idiot princes on their thrones of fire and sorrow. When every single monster becomes a resource for you, there's just too many opportunities.


They're broken in different ways, but polymorph is a little stronger. It gives you more, often for less.

[quick_comment]

Why not enforce the PHBII shapechanging rules on the core polymorph spells?

[Doc Roc]

Because even those have loop-holes. Sometimes, things that can't be fixed need to be excised. I have no misconceptions about the fact that casters are wildly more powerful than anything other than casters. Why give them more?

[Kelpstrand]

In case anyone cares, like giamoco.

I do not consider Test of Spite limitations with Vs fights to be an accurate judge of anything.

As such, fighter vs AC is still going to be done by comparison, not PvP, and is going to follow my earlier rules.

@Tide:

Why do you think your particular collection of houserules is somehow a good indicator of... well, anything.

'Testing' things is only a good thing if you actually test what needs to be tested. Banning Wildshape and Polymorph and then having a PvP fight has exactly zero to do with how in an actual game a Druid and a Fighter might compare in dealing with an appropriate CR opposition.

[Tiki Snakes]

In case anyone cares, like giamoco.

I do not consider Test of Spite limitations with Vs fights to be an accurate judge of anything.

As such, fighter vs AC is still going to be done by comparison, not PvP, and is going to follow my earlier rules.

@Tide:

Why do you think your particular collection of houserules is somehow a good indicator of... well, anything.

'Testing' things is only a good thing if you actually test what needs to be tested. Banning Wildshape and Polymorph and then having a PvP fight has exactly zero to do with how in an actual game a Druid and a Fighter might compare in dealing with an appropriate CR opposition.

Though the phrasing here is perhaps a bit prickly, I can see where you are coming from.

Tide - Considering the whole point of the Test of Spite has been to try out your various attempts to fix elements of the system, it could be argued that it's not really an ideal ruleset to examine the 'core' balance of the two classes. :)

That said, given any nerf's would likely fall on the druid side more heavily than the fighter, I'm still rather interested in how the tests via spite turn out.

Though, as you're running TOS rules, doesn't that mean Gia already lost? I thought you banned fighter? ;)

[9mm]

Though, as you're running TOS rules, doesn't that mean Gia already lost? I thought you banned fighter? ;)

I talked him out of it, Non-dungeon crasher fighter is allowed now.

[Kelpstrand]

Though the phrasing here is perhaps a bit prickly, I can see where you are coming from.

I'm mostly thinking about the vs fight aspect. I don't think Monks suck because they lose to Wizards. I think they suck because they lose to CR appropriate opposition.

[Doc Roc]

@Tide:
Why do you think your particular collection of houserules is somehow a good indicator of... well, anything.

'Testing' things is only a good thing if you actually test what needs to be tested. Banning Wildshape and Polymorph and then having a PvP fight has exactly zero to do with how in an actual game a Druid and a Fighter might compare in dealing with an appropriate CR opposition.

Nothing implies you can't run one of your own, with strict RAW. This is always your prerogative. In fact, please do. ToS has been thoroughly tested using the Same Game style testing common to TGD. To be honest, it's probably been more thoroughly tested and examined than the original Core of 3.5. That doesn't mean I don't want Moar Data from Moar Angles.

I agree that a LOT of PvE testing would be more appropriate. The issue is that this is difficult to do in a PbP situation, particularly across the 4-daily encounters that you'd need to test. Even worse, you'd need to run those a few times over. If you can manage that, I'll be nothing but delighted.

[The Corinthian]

Because even those have loop-holes. Sometimes, things that can't be fixed need to be excised. I have no misconceptions about the fact that casters are wildly more powerful than anything other than casters. Why give them more?

I'm very curious actually. What's wrong with the PHB II Shapeshift variant? (Not talking about the "polymorph subschool" spells here, but the druid variant class feature)? From what I've seen it's more or less the same type of ability as Rage: a personal buff that grants some new abilities but restricts you from some others (i.e spellcasting, if nothing else)

[Bayar]

Lose spellcasting while shifting, lose animal companion, lose wildshape, dont have any support in any of the other books, druid becomes MAD, small races are no longer good for druids.

Yes, it becomes a barbarian with spellcasting. Id say a tier 3. Which is good but not gamebreaking.

[sofawall]

I'll play the level 1 core fighter, actually. I love low-level fighters.

I'll even subject myself to ToS rules, and the completes, MiC, SpC, etc, although that means it'll take more than 5 mins to put up a build.

Any takers? Who wants to be a... Well, I guess wolf is most likely :P

(Mind you, level 1 is hilarious Rocket Launcher Tag, so I'd like at least a few matches. To take lucky rolls as far out of the situation as possible)

[Kelpstrand]

I'm very curious actually. What's wrong with the PHB II Shapeshift variant? (Not talking about the "polymorph subschool" spells here, but the druid variant class feature)? From what I've seen it's more or less the same type of ability as Rage: a personal buff that grants some new abilities but restricts you from some others (i.e spellcasting, if nothing else)

Really counter synergistic. Enhancement bonus. Bite of the X spells are usually better than Shapeshifting. You might as well just say "Druids lose Animal Companion and Wildshape. Gain nothing."

[oxinabox]

lvl 1 fighter:
Human:
Stats:
Str Mod =+4, then Dex then Con
We want to win initive.


feats
Mounted combat
Ride by attack
Spirited Charge

equipt:
Riding horse, wich has been trained not to flee battle with handle animal.
Lance


attack:
Str+1
Damage (on a charge):
3*(d8+1.5str)


Stratergy:
Win intitive: (else GOTO 2)
LBL 1
Charge,
If we're luckly then will take a wolf out in one hit: (wolf has 13 Hp we deal at least 21 damage, if we hit)


LBL 2
otherwise, wolf attacks, deal max(assuming doesn't crit) (7 damage: we live the first one cos we have atleast 11 HP)
Risk AoO, make a Full round Run, 4xspeed
we have +10ft more speed as wolf, So now to catch us he'ld have to make a full round run, leaving him vunerable,
So after he runs were are still 40 ft ahead of him, so we can Charge again
GOTO 1


LBL 3
If he catchs us take 5 foot step back and attack with lance (we can't get get far back enough to charge, ever again uinfortunatly).


PLAN B
Actually this could be pulled off possibly better without the Mounted feats at all.
Instead: Alertness, Impoved initive and be a half orc.
Str Mod=+5
We win initive. (we almost can't loose)
With lance on a charge deal:
2*(d8+1.5 srt)
Min:
16 damage.
the Wolf is dead.

Lvl 1 fighter just beat a lvl 1 animal compainion


EDIT: changed above the relect the fact that horses are 10ft faster than wolves mean retreating and then charging always works.

[sofawall]

I was going to go Orc with a lance, yeah. Imp. Init and Weapon Focus, to make sure I get the hit.

[oxinabox]

I was going to go Orc with a lance, yeah. Imp. Init and Weapon Focus, to make sure I get the hit.

Great minds think alike. *Internet High Five*
Even rolling min damage with the lance it still will one shot a wolf.

[Kelpstrand]

/cry.

Not PvP.

Please. Anything but PvP.

[oxinabox]

/cry.

Not PvP.

Please. Anything but PvP.

??? this was what you requested. IIRC
Mine was a purely numerical evalution of win.
no rolling involved, since it was a min damage would kill.

It's not PvP anyway, it's PvNPC
or real just PvMonster



EDIT: Some number's (I have a proability test next week, but this is far too simple to be in that)
Fighter, lets say scale mail (can aford that)
STR +4 DEX +2, CON+2 HP=12
Initive:
fighter: +6
wolf: +2
P(figher wins initive)=1-P(X<4)=4/5


Wolf
AC=14 FFAC=12
Fighter attack: +4
Fighter attack after charge: +6
P(Hit Charge 1st round)=P(X>=6)=14/20=7/10

as these are independent events:
P(Figher win in first round)=56%
Surprisingly low.
But that is to win in first round.

If it's an extended battle i'ld need to go on.
If you want i'll calculate the rest.
how ever the fighter has better attack, and damage and AC than the wolf, so that even if he didn't charge, just taking a 5 ft step back each round and stabbing with the lance, would come out as winning>50% of the time.
Therefore you standard board and sword fighter could also win at lvl 1, agaist wolf greater that 50% of the time.

[Kelpstrand]

No, I requested a comparison of two characters doing their job against CR enemies. Not PvP. Because PvP doesn't prove anything.

Also. Riding Dog is generally considered superior to Wolf. Just saying.

[oxinabox]

No, I requested a comparison of two characters doing their job against CR enemies.

Well wolf is CR 1 .
a task for 4 players lvl 1.
the fighter just soloed it.

[The Glyphstone]

Now you have to compare Wolf vs. Wolf for fairness....which, funnily enough, is exactly 50% odds of success. Only 6% lower than the Fighter, so he is superior, though by a small margin.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

An entire PC class should do better than 56% against the class feature of another PC class.

[oxinabox]

An entire PC class should do better than 56% against the class feature of another PC class.

That's not 56% over all.
over all it's closer to 80% at very least, i havne't done the maths, yet.
That's 56% chance to win in one round.
56% chance to win before the wolf even gets to act.


These numbers are rough from here on, i'm to tired to think.
Onced the wolf acts even assuming he hits the fighter survives,
and on the next round:
Assuming not hit and run, tactic's i mentioned above
fighte has 55% chance of hitting him, and needs to roll decent to kill.
If he does the retreat tactic then he runs a 40% chance of being hit again, when which is still less than 50% likely to kill him (assuming the wolve attack previosly hit)
So next round he charges and has >50% to kill in one shot.
I'll do the math proper with proability diostributions tommorrow

[Bayar]

Wait, you say that the fighter retreats after a charge ? Or the wolf ?

Because the wolf wont retreat. That is a poor tactic. Instead, the wolf will attack the fighter and if it hits, he will get a free trip attempt that does not trigger an Aoo. If that succeeds, the fighter then triggers an Aoo when he tries to get up on his turn.

[oxinabox]

Wait, you say that the fighter retreats after a charge ? Or the wolf ?

Because the wolf wont retreat. That is a poor tactic. Instead, the wolf will attack the fighter and if it hits, he will get a free trip attempt that does not trigger an Aoo. If that succeeds, the fighter then triggers an Aoo when he tries to get up on his turn.

THe fighter makes a running retreat, risks the AoO, so that he can charge again

[Bayar]

THe fighter makes a running retreat, risks the AoO, so that he can charge again

But how can you run after charging ? That does not make any sense. And even if the fighter runs away, the wolf will just charge him because...oh I dunno, WOLFS have a 50 ft speed. And the wolf could be played by someone who actually knows how PvP matches should work (try to trick your opponent). He might not actually pursuit the fighter, but go somewhere else...like his damn wolf pack that he has with leadership and wild cohort cheese. Or stand perfectly still because the fighter cannot win if he cannot swing the sword at him.

If the fighter has a sword, run in the opposite direction and just laugh.

Seriously, you could argue that the wolf has INT 2 and thus not smart enough to do these tactics. INT =\= how smart you are. He has a WIS of 12. That means he is wiser than your average human.

[vrellum]

Horses have a move of 60.

I suspect that not moving means the fighter takes out his bow and shoots the wolf 'til it dies.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

That's not 56% over all.
over all it's closer to 80% at very least, i havne't done the maths, yet.
That's 56% chance to win in one round.
56% chance to win before the wolf even gets to act.


These numbers are rough from here on, i'm to tired to think.
Onced the wolf acts even assuming he hits the fighter survives,
and on the next round:
Assuming not hit and run, tactic's i mentioned above
fighte has 55% chance of hitting him, and needs to roll decent to kill.
If he does the retreat tactic then he runs a 40% chance of being hit again, when which is still less than 50% likely to kill him (assuming the wolve attack previosly hit)
So next round he charges and has >50% to kill in one shot.
I'll do the math proper with proability diostributions tommorrow
We also have to factor in terrain, to determine if charging and running is possible...

After you finish your comparison, do you want to rate them vs various monsters in the MM?

[stenver]

The PvAC should take place in an arena with the size of 1000*1000ft of bare ground to be fair. Yes i wanted PvAC to prove whose better

PvCR is boring, too many different CR

[The Glyphstone]

So now there's a horse involved? I'm sensing a joke here about Schrodinger's Fighter, but it's only fair after so many Schrodinger's Wizards thrown around.

The Scenario is as follows - Mounted level 1 Fighter vs. Wolf (CR 1 challenge).

Fighters have, on average, 150GP to spend at level 1.
-50 GP for Scale Mail
-10GP for Lance
-150GP for a Light Warhorse.
Totals at 210 GP. That's 40% more wealth than the average lvl1 Fighter would have, which is very good...let's give him a Longsword too for 15GP, making his total value 225 GP and an even 50% higher than average. Moving on:

Fighter AC of 16 (+4 Armor, +2 Dex), Horse AC of 14.
Fighter HP of 12, Horse HP of 22.
Fighter Initative of +6 (Imp. Init).
Fighter Attack bonus of +5 (BAB 1, +4 Str), Horse attack of +4.
Fighter Damage of 1d8+6, doubled on charge (ordinary lance), Horse damage of 1d4+3.

Wolf AC of 14 (+2 Natural, +2 Dex).
Wolf HP of 13.
Wolf Initiative of +2.
Wolf Attack bonus of +3.
Wolf Damage of 1d6+1, with free trip attack at +1 bonus.

Round 1:
Fighter wins initiative 80% of the time.
he passes his DC10 Ride Check to attack from a mount 85% of the time, so he has a 68% chance to be able to make his attacks this turn. Charging the wolf, he needs to roll a 5+ to hit (+2 charge, wolf is Flat-footed), giving him a 51% chance to land a blow in Round 1. That hit will deal 2d8+12 damage, minimum 14, so if he hits, the wolf is eliminated. 51% chance of victory for the fighter immediately.

Wolf wins initiative 20% of the time.
The wolf charges him. +5 bonus vs. FFAC 14 is an 8+, or 60% chance of hitting. Dealing an average of 4.5 damage, it has a +1 bonus to Trip vs. his +4 bonus to resist, giving it a 136/400 success rate, or 34%. Overall, there is a 4.08% chance the wolf will stop him from charging it and successfully drag him off his mount. Not too good for the wolf. If it fails, he can back out of its reach with a Withdraw action, avoiding the AoO. If the wolf pursues, he can charge it again - it's not flat-footed, so he only has a 59.5% to pass his Ride check and land his KO punch. I'm losing control of the math here, but his odds have to be over 80% by round 2, if not more. If the wolf retreats, it'll survive - it's impossible for him to move to a place where he can charge the the wolf but not be in charge range himself if it's double moving away each turn - but he 'wins' and gets XP for the fight.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Scenario 2: Wolf animal companion vs. Wolf (CR 1).
Mathematically, it should be a 50% chance to either side, assuming identical tactics. Practically, it'll take at least 2 turns for one wolf to kill the other assuming maximum damage rolls.

-----------

initial conclusion: A fighter with above-average wealth is superior to a Wolf animal companion, unfortunately. Interestingly, if he was limited to 150GP of wealth (average), then he'd be stuck with a Light Horse instead of a Light Warhorse, which would mean he could never charge, and have only a 30% chance of making his DC20 Ride check each turn to control his mount as a move action. That'd give the wolf a huge advantage, enough that he'd rather be on foot. Wolf vs. Fighter w/ Greatsword is another fight though, one I don't want to do the math on right now.

[tyckspoon]

So now there's a horse involved? I'm sensing a joke here about Schrodinger's Fighter, but it's only fair after so many Schrodinger's Wizards thrown around.

The Scenario is as follows - Mounted level 1 Fighter vs. Wolf (CR 1 challenge).

Fighters have, on average, 150GP to spend at level 1.
-50 GP for Scale Mail
-10GP for Lance
-150GP for a Light Warhorse.
Totals at 210 GP. That's 40% more wealth than the average lvl1 Fighter would have, which is very good...let's give him a Longsword too for 15GP, making his total value 225 GP and an even 50% higher than average. Moving on:


Generally if you have to do this at level 1, it's assumed the Fighter bought a non-combat-trained horse and then trained it himself with Handle Animal. It's one of the few useful things he can do with his skill list. A Light Horse only costs 75 GP. Unfortunately there is no price given for an untrained Light Warhorse, which would be the best choice thanks to better stats.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

The PvAC should take place in an arena with the size of 1000*1000ft of bare ground to be fair.

Fair to whom? This advantages a charging or archery based fighter and disadvantages a wolf.

[Eldariel]

Scenario 2: Wolf animal companion vs. Wolf (CR 1).
Mathematically, it should be a 50% chance to either side, assuming identical tactics. Practically, it'll take at least 2 turns for one wolf to kill the other assuming maximum damage rolls.

The animal companion has a Padded Barding, giving it +2 AC. Also, I don't see why we're talking Wolf over the almost strictly better Riding Dog (it's 10' slower, otherwise better in every way) if we're talking optimized (which would wear a Studded Leather Barding for AC 19). Riding Dog has +3 attack, advantage in the trip-check and too high AC for the Wolf to reliably touch - it's going to win the match.

Now, Fighter vs. Riding Dog depends. 19 AC is seriously difficult for the fighter to hit. Numerically the Dog has the advantage To Hit/AC-wise, but the Fighter's attacks are much more brutal (due to point buy over elite array). Also, if the Riding Dog's feats are allowed to be chosen, he could also pick up Improved Initiative. Note also that this is a Fighter specifically built for this challenge while the AC is something you'd normally use on level 1 anyways; I'm not sure how relevant that is. How about just a standard (non-mounted) future charger or tripper?

[The Glyphstone]

I just used a Wolf because that's what everyone was quoting. And I think you're seeing the other point I had - even with an optimized for the fight, above-wealth Fighter, he still only has a small advantage over the standardized Wolf in terms of outright victory.

[Bayar]

Horses have a move of 60.

I suspect that not moving means the fighter takes out his bow and shoots the wolf 'til it dies.

This is not Fighter + Horse VS Wolf. If your fighter wants to have a horse, which is not on his level 1 class ability list, then the wolf gets his druid. And we know who will win THEN.

[Eldariel]

This is not Fighter + Horse VS Wolf. If your fighter wants to have a horse, which is not on his level 1 class ability list, then the wolf gets his druid. And we know who will win THEN.

He was referring to fighter purchasing a horse with his GP. Not a good investment in the long run, but a legal one.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Hm. How much does a female wolf (or riding dog) cost? Can an Animal Companion buy one? :smalltongue:

[Bayar]

Hm. How much does a female wolf (or riding dog) cost? Can an Animal Companion buy one? :smalltongue:

He could use Handle Animal to recruit them for free and then ride them into combat ! The wolf that is.

Wait, didnt Leadership gave you a cohort AND followers ?

[Eldariel]

He could use Handle Animal to recruit them for free and then ride them into combat ! The wolf that is.

Wait, didnt Leadership gave you a cohort AND followers ?

...all my animal companions are going to now pick Leadership on 6 and grow their own hordes...with the Cohort of course being their mate!

[Kelpstrand]

Probably for starters people who are making specific anti animal companion builds should have to make all their builds a progression.

IE, of at level 1 when you don't even have enough money to buy a horse, you intend to buy a horse and take mounted combat.

Well, that's fine, but you still waste WBL and feats on a horse when level 4 comes around, so you might not be able to afford what you want then, and of yeah, you wasted a few feats since your horsey ain't worth riding anymore.

Also, you know, have them face actual CR monsters, many of whom are immune to "I be Spirited Charger."

[oxinabox]

Probably for starters people who are making specific anti animal companion builds should have to make all their builds a progression.

IE, of at level 1 when you don't even have enough money to buy a horse, you intend to buy a horse and take mounted combat.

Well, that's fine, but you still waste WBL and feats on a horse when level 4 comes around, so you might not be able to afford what you want then, and of yeah, you wasted a few feats since your horsey ain't worth riding anymore.

Also, you know, have them face actual CR monsters, many of whom are immune to "I be Spirited Charger."

You can easily afford a light horse, which you can train with handle animal.

Spirited Charge was only used in my first build, all builds that followed just used a lance dealing double damage from a mounted charge.

Now, Mounted combat in itself isn't a great feat, a chance to reroll the to hit on your horse is handy, but not as good as imporvoed intitive at low lvls.

My fighter and all that followed look like resonable low lvl fighters, not optimised for this fight ijn particular.
Because a fighter charging with a lance, really can't go wrong,
I know people who use this build in actually games, they do pretty damn solid damage

[Tiki Snakes]

...all my animal companions are going to now pick Leadership on 6 and grow their own hordes...with the Cohort of course being their mate!

Leadership is rules hazy, and the animal companion's leadership score is likely to be iffy. I suggest giving them a Wild-Cohort mate instead (it'll even keep up for a while).

The bonus is, you can get it at level 1, if you're allowed to pick their feats, or 3 happily otherwise.

[Kylarra]

You can easily afford a light horse, which you can train with handle animal.
I guess if we're assuming 3 weeks of preptime and a great deal of luck (DC 20 check to train a horse for riding into combat, @ 4ranks max +0 charisma = 75% chance of failure)

If you want to take 20, well you're looking at 60 weeks of work...

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Because a fighter charging with a lance, really can't go wrong,


Mountains
Swamps
Forest
City
Indoors

[quick_comment]

Mountains
Swamps
Forest
City
Indoors

Mountain Fortress Stance, sand, enemies with combat reflexes and improved trip, readied walls of X, etc

[Yukitsu]

My favourite is readied actions to step to the side.

[oxinabox]

I guess if we're assuming 3 weeks of preptime and a great deal of luck (DC 20 check to train a horse for riding into combat, @ 4ranks max +0 charisma = 75% chance of failure)

If you want to take 20, well you're looking at 60 weeks of work...

Back story, hell yeah.

Well there is that chargijng problem with dificult ternain, but it's overall a good combo. Obviosly if your setting had few open plains, and was more dungeon delving, or city crawling, then charge isn't such a great idea.
However on pure stat terms a sword and board fighter lvl 1 fighter is better in every single way AC, Attack, Damage, than a wolf even with padded barding.

[Andras]

It strikes me that PvP would be a very poor estimate of the animal companion compared to the fighter, given that the measure of whether the classes can beat each other senseless isn't the point.

Also, this is being looked at in the wrong way. Let's pretend for a second that the animal companion is inferior to the general core fighter. OK, so the druid only gets an inferior tank as a class feature. And can summon other inferior tanks. And can become a tank for a long time (the entire day, depending on the level). A tank who has full spellcasting, mind you. The sum of all those is still clearly better than anything the core fighter (and, most likely, non-core fighter) can pull out without massive expenditure of wealth. Seeing this, how can it even be pretended that balance exists between the two? The druid can do the fighter's job better, and then some, and that's just how it is...and thus, the two are unbalanced.

[Doc Roc]

It strikes me that PvP would be a very poor estimate of the animal companion compared to the fighter, given that the measure of whether the classes can beat each other senseless isn't the point.

Also, this is being looked at in the wrong way. Let's pretend for a second that the animal companion is inferior to the general core fighter. OK, so the druid only gets an inferior tank as a class feature. And can summon other inferior tanks. And can become a tank for a long time (the entire day, depending on the level). A tank who has full spellcasting, mind you. The sum of all those is still clearly better than anything the core fighter (and, most likely, non-core fighter) can pull out without massive expenditure of wealth. Seeing this, how can it even be pretended that balance exists between the two? The druid can do the fighter's job better, and then some, and that's just how it is...and thus, the two are unbalanced.

I agree on all points except the first. This isn't really PvP, this is an AC against a probable opponent of appropriate CR that happens to be a fighter. It proves that you shouldn't ever even use it as an NPC class, which is... fairly pathetic really.

[oxinabox]

I agree on all points except the first. This isn't really PvP, this is an AC against a probable opponent of appropriate CR that happens to be a fighter. It proves that you shouldn't ever even use it as an NPC class, which is... fairly pathetic really.

fighters good in a low power game.
eg one with out wizards, or druids, or DMM clerics
Devine magic isn't as powerful blast wise as arcane, but the batman druid doesn't care.
Or its good for a 2 lvl dip in a high power game (assuming dm can't be bothered with multiclass xp penalties)
even for a greater dip if your trying to get feat chains.

[Bayar]

fighters good in a low power game.
eg one with out wizards, or druids, or DMM clerics
Devine magic isn't as powerful blast wise as arcane, but the batman druid doesn't care.
Or its good for a 2 lvl dip in a high power game (assuming dm can't be bothered with multiclass xp penalties)
even for a greater dip if your trying to get feat chains.

Whoever told you divine magic is used for blasting is missing a few links from his SRD.

You use divine magic for buffing. You use arcane magic for buffing. You use both for buffing, debuffing and battlefield control.

The Wizard/cleric/druid isnt broken because they can make a giant crater with a spell dealing a gazilion damage. they are broken because they can be GOD.

[oxinabox]

Whoever told you divine magic is used for blasting is missing a few links from his SRD.

You use divine magic for buffing. You use arcane magic for buffing. You use both for buffing, debuffing and battlefield control.

The Wizard/cleric/druid isnt broken because they can make a giant crater with a spell dealing a gazilion damage. they are broken because they can be GOD.

That was my point.
Batman druid doesn't care.

Batman wizard bans evokation

[Doc Roc]

The Wizard/cleric/druid isnt broken because they can make a giant crater with a spell dealing a gazilion damage. they are broken because they can be GOD.

Actually, the thing is, they can do both. Really really well. Painfully, heartbreakingly well.

[Bayar]

Actually, the thing is, they can do both. Really really well. Painfully, heartbreakingly well.

Well yeah, but clerics are not that good at blasting, that was what I was implying.

Druids? Produce flame + wildshape. Can you use share spells to share produce flame with your animal companion ?

[Andras]

I agree on all points except the first. This isn't really PvP, this is an AC against a probable opponent of appropriate CR that happens to be a fighter. It proves that you shouldn't ever even use it as an NPC class, which is... fairly pathetic really.

I suppose, to a point, but it's not as much of a rigorous test given the specific optimization involved (more so in the fighter's case, but still). This leads to problems like the hide from animals potion Giacomo brought up, which you'd usually only have if you were incredibly paranoid (I've never seen either the spell or a potion of it used in normal play, could just be me though). A better test would just be to send similar parties against the same nonspecific, out-of-the-SRD barrage of PvE challenges, with one using a fighter without an Animal Companion chosen and one using an Animal Companion.

Unless you're already doing that and I missed something. Either way.

[Yuki Akuma]

Well yeah, but clerics are not that good at blasting, that was what I was implying.

Druids? Produce flame + wildshape. Can you use share spells to share produce flame with your animal companion ?


Share Spells (Ex)
At the druid’s option, she may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) she casts upon herself also affect her animal companion. The animal companion must be within 5 feet of her at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the animal companion if the companion moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the animal again, even if it returns to the druid before the duration expires.

Additionally, the druid may cast a spell with a target of "You" on her animal companion (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. A druid and her animal companion can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion’s type (animal).


Produce Flame
Evocation [Fire]
Level: Drd 1, Fire 2
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 0 ft.
Effect: Flame in your palm
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes

Surprisingly, no. Given how the spell is written, it was probably done this way to specifically stop you getting two produce flames for the price of one.

[Diamondeye]

Fair to whom? This advantages a charging or archery based fighter and disadvantages a wolf.

No, actually not. Being able to shoot arrows is an advantage of the fighter. If we fight indoors where the fighter never gets a chance to fire before the wolf is all over him, that's not really a test of the fighter's abilities because they're constricted by terrain.

Fighting outdoors is to the fighter's advantage because it allows him to use his full capabilities, but it doesn't apply any disadvantage to the wolf; its abilities are not in any way reduced by fighting in a large area. The fighter doesn't even need to be arvhery-based for this to matter; just the ability to get one or two hits before the wolf closes could make a major difference in outcome.

Fighting in the open isn't giving an unfair advantage to the fighter; it's taking away an unfair advantage from the wolf for a straight stat comparison purpose. If the wolf can still beat the fighter indoors, that's still a problem of the fighter being underpowered or the AC overpowered, just not to the degree that would be true if the wolf can also win when the fighter can use archery or special charging attacks/feats.

To put it another way, it would be like arguing a P-51 can out-dogfight an F-16 as long as the F-16 doesn't use radar, guided missiles, or afterburners. (I don't know if a P-51 can win even then, but lets not get sidetracked on the example) There's no reason to take away those advantages expect to make the P-51 win; they aren't an "unfair advantage" of the F-16.

As to the level 1 fighter with the horse; I think people might be confusing my level 8 fighter build, which had a heavy warhorse, to compare to your dwarf druid, with the level 1 fighter and the horse somehow "migrated".

[Eldariel]

To put it another way, it would be like arguing a P-51 can out-dogfight an F-16 as long as the F-16 doesn't use radar, guided missiles, or afterburners. (I don't know if a P-51 can win even then, but lets not get sidetracked on the example) There's no reason to take away those advantages expect to make the P-51 win; they aren't an "unfair advantage" of the F-16.

Not the same thing. The Fighter is constrained by outside circumstances in the case of a dungeon, while this F-16 is intentionally limiting his own abilities. The Fighter has no options as far as a dungeon, or indoors in general in concerned. If an adventure forces him into such an environment, the "No!"-crys will fall to deaf ears.

[Kelpstrand]

Not the same thing. The Fighter is constrained by outside circumstances in the case of a dungeon, while this F-16 is intentionally limiting his own abilities. The Fighter has no options as far as a dungeon, or indoors in general in concerned. If an adventure forces him into such an environment, the "No!"-crys will fall to deaf ears.

It's like if you built a super awesome fighter that always beat an F-16 one hundred percent of the time. But instantly crashed the second it had to deal with a cross wind over 15 miles an hour. Yeah, you are totally better if you never encounter a cross wind.

Unfortunately, you will encounter a crosswind. Deal with it.

If you can't win in a small room with doors on each side, you can't play D&D, because 100% of all campaigns involve the protagonists being inside a small room with doors on one or more ends.

[Eldariel]

It's like if you built a super awesome fighter that always beat an F-16 one hundred percent of the time. But instantly crashed the second it had to deal with a cross wind over 15 miles an hour. Yeah, you are totally better if you never encounter a cross wind.

Unfortunately, you will encounter a crosswind. Deal with it.

If you can't win in a small room with doors on each side, you can't play D&D, because 100% of all campaigns involve the protagonists being inside a small room with doors on one or more ends.

Precisely.

[Bayar]

Surprisingly, no. Given how the spell is written, it was probably done this way to specifically stop you getting two produce flames for the price of one.

Dang, a halfling mounted on a riding dog could have sharespelled it so that the dog could deliver it through a natural attack...ah well, its not like they needed improvement or anything.

[Diamondeye]

Not the same thing. The Fighter is constrained by outside circumstances in the case of a dungeon, while this F-16 is intentionally limiting his own abilities. The Fighter has no options as far as a dungeon, or indoors in general in concerned. If an adventure forces him into such an environment, the "No!"-crys will fall to deaf ears.

We're not talking about an adventure though; we're talking about a test of overall combat capabilities. I could just as easily say the adventure forces the combat to occur on a sand-blasted plain, and there's nothing here saying the fighter is necessarily the PC.

The comparison is perfectly valid because it doesn't matter that the F-16 is allowing the limitation on himself; if it were real combat only a total fool would pit a P-51 against an F-16. Similarly, the comparison here is to determine the relative overall power of the AC vs. the fighter; like the air combat described it's a totally contrived situation. Saying "well, it's unfair to the wolf to fight in the open because the fighter can use all his abilities, some of which the wolf can't match" is ridiculous; it's tanamount to saying "we have to make sure that the fight occurs where the wolf has the advantage so that we don't have to worry about the fighter winning and thereby challanging our assumptions about the overall power of the AC."

In other words, claiming that archery is an unfair advantage is simply saying that the fighter has an unfair advantage by virtue of being a fighter, which would be no different than saying an F-16 is superior by virtue of being an F-16. It's artificially limiting one side or the other just to get the result one wants.

I'm not trying to get the fighter outdoors in order to make the fighter win so we can say the AC isn't overpowered. If it still can beat the fighter in a dungeon, it's still damn powerful.

[Diamondeye]

It's like if you built a super awesome fighter that always beat an F-16 one hundred percent of the time. But instantly crashed the second it had to deal with a cross wind over 15 miles an hour. Yeah, you are totally better if you never encounter a cross wind.

Unfortunately, you will encounter a crosswind. Deal with it.

If you can't win in a small room with doors on each side, you can't play D&D, because 100% of all campaigns involve the protagonists being inside a small room with doors on one or more ends.

Which isn't the point. While 100% of the campaigns may include fights like that, 100% will not include a fighter versus a druid's AC under those circumstances, nor will 100% of fighter-vs.-wolf encounters occur there. Druids are most commonly found outdoors, for one thing, as are wolves. For another, it's valuable to know how much of a power difference exists between an AC and a fighter, not just that one exists. We already know one exists, so it's far more informative to conduct the fight under circumstances least advantageous to the AC in order to determine the degree of advantage. Giving all the advantages to the AC on the jsutification that sooner or later such a fight might occur somewhere is just re-confirming what's already known, and will invarialy be generalized to other situations without including the qualifier "inside a relatively small space".

[Bayar]

Although, the P-51 Mustang IS the best fighter plane ever created. No one can argue about this.

Edit: Also, would you like to try a level 1 fighter with normal starting gold against a riding dog without his druid pal in an Arena Tournament map ?

We roll the map. If you are lucky, you get the glass arena.

[Diamondeye]

Although, the P-51 Mustang IS the best fighter plane ever created. No one can argue about this.

Edit: Also, would you like to try a level 1 fighter with normal starting gold against a riding dog without his druid pal in an Arena Tournament map ?

We roll the map. If you are lucky, you get the glass arena.

Me? No. I don't know why you would think I'm "lucky" by getting a glass arena; I'm not trying to take the fighter's side in this. I'm just promoting an honest comparison that gives us something useful rather than simply reconfirming what we already know in an environment predisposed to give that result anyhow.

[Eldariel]

Me? No. I don't know why you would think I'm "lucky" by getting a glass arena; I'm not trying to take the fighter's side in this. I'm just promoting an honest comparison that gives us something useful rather than simply reconfirming what we already know in an environment predisposed to give that result anyhow.

It seems like the environment is a very relevant factor either way, so what would probably be the fairest comparison would be to catalogue a bunch of likely environments the fight may take place in and see which side wins in which environments and see which won more encounters overall.

This is assuming the Fighter buys a mount though which seems highly unlikely given how big a dent even Light Horse (which requires further training to be used in combat) is in a Fighter's wallet on level 1. I'd rather see a more realistic Fighter-build that might actually get player on level 1 and later and see what comes out of it.

[Oslecamo]

Not the same thing. The Fighter is constrained by outside circumstances in the case of a dungeon, while this F-16 is intentionally limiting his own abilities. The Fighter has no options as far as a dungeon, or indoors in general in concerned. If an adventure forces him into such an environment, the "No!"-crys will fall to deaf ears.

Actually, the dungeon helps the fighter. No entangle for the druid, and just closing the door stops the basic wolf on it's tracks. The druid moves to open it, and then discovers the fighter waiting with a readied action on the other side. Slash. Dead druid.

This assuming that the druid and his pet wolf didn't get eaten by traps untill now. The fighter does have bigger HP and AC.

[Diamondeye]

It seems like the environment is a very relevant factor either way, so what would probably be the fairest comparison would be to catalogue a bunch of likely environments the fight may take place in and see which side wins in which environments and see which won more encounters overall.

This is assuming the Fighter buys a mount though which seems highly unlikely given how big a dent even Light Horse (which requires further training to be used in combat) is in a Fighter's wallet on level 1. I'd rather see a more realistic Fighter-build that might actually get player on level 1 and later and see what comes out of it.

Personally I think the ability to use a bow while the wolf closes in would be better at level 1 (this doesn't mean "archery-built fighter"; it just means the ability to fire and maybe get 1 or 2 hits while the wolf approaches) compared to a horse, but yes, it would give the best picture to try numerous enviornments more than once each.

However, the baseline should probably be some outdoors location, both to try the fight in the circumstances least supportive of conventional wisdom, and because the outdoors is where druids and their companions are most often found.

[Eldariel]

Personally I think the ability to use a bow while the wolf closes in would be better at level 1 (this doesn't mean "archery-built fighter"; it just means the ability to fire and maybe get 1 or 2 hits while the wolf approaches) compared to a horse, but yes, it would give the best picture to try numerous enviornments more than once each.

However, the baseline should probably be some outdoors location, both to try the fight in the circumstances least supportive of conventional wisdom, and because the outdoors is where druids and their companions are most often found.

Note how expensive bows are on level 1. Fighter wealth is on average 150gp; Longbow is half of that and even Shortbow is a serious investment. But yeah, thanks to the AC's speed, skirmishing archery without a mount isn't likely to do much provided it's got Bardings (an even bigger investment from the Druid's budget, true, but considering a Druid's normal armament on level 1 is Sling + Quarterstaff and armor Hide, he tends to be able to afford it). There's like a 20-10% chance of hitting (depending on which AC we're talking about; Riding Dog has notably higher AC than Wolf). As for Druids being outdoors, there are orders of "root Druids" that dwell underground, among other things. City Druids also exist.

[Bayar]

Actually, the dungeon helps the fighter. No entangle for the druid, and just closing the door stops the basic wolf on it's tracks. The druid moves to open it, and then discovers the fighter waiting with a readied action on the other side. Slash. Dead druid.

This assuming that the druid and his pet wolf didn't get eaten by traps untill now. The fighter does have bigger HP and AC.

1. Entangle does not need to be somewhere in the open with plants. Dungeons have mold, and it is not reasonable to belive that that wont magically entangle the fighter. Plus, the spell description doesnt mention that you require plants for the spell to take effect, only that it entangles creatures in the area.

2. Show me somewhere that animals cant open doors. They CAN make a STR check if they want. The World's largest Dungeon actually has rat swarms that bang against doors to open them to get to the juicy adventurers on the other side, so a big riding dog can do it too...

3. He may have bigger HP and AC, but a spiked pit trap can kill him too, or at least take him out of action. Oh, and the druid can always summon something to go scouting for traps or something, or use the animal companion to scout for traps and then summon another one.

[Starbuck_II]

2. Show me somewhere that animals cant open doors. They CAN make a STR check if they want. The World's largest Dungeon actually has rat swarms that bang against doors to open them to get to the juicy adventurers on the other side, so a big riding dog can do it too...


Oh definately, I've known kitten that open doors. In fact, this was a problem because we aren't allowed cats at our dorm and my dorm mate had one in his room.
Maintenance came one day and guess who opened the door and got out.

He would jump up; grab door handle with paws and gravity did the rest.

[Eldariel]

Actually, the dungeon helps the fighter. No entangle for the druid, and just closing the door stops the basic wolf on it's tracks. The druid moves to open it, and then discovers the fighter waiting with a readied action on the other side. Slash. Dead druid.

This assuming that the druid and his pet wolf didn't get eaten by traps untill now. The fighter does have bigger HP and AC.

The Animal Companion has the biggest HP (2 HD with Con-bonuses = 13 HP), and probably the highest AC (Sword & Board Fighter can beat Wolf, but not Riding Dog). It's definitely the likeliest candidate for surviving traps.

Also, if you're bringing the Druid into the equation, senses are emphasized in a dungeon and Fighter fails senses (no Spot, no Listen, no Wis-focus) while Druid is Wis-focus with Listen & Spot in class.

The Fighter has no way of figuring out where the Druid is coming from while the Druid's listen and the AC's scent easily allow him to detect Fighter's movement. Oh, and the AC has pretty good senses too.


Fighters aren't made for solo adventuring. Versatility isn't in their vocabulary. Trapless dungeon (say, abandoned Orcs' cavern), though, could offer a rather fair battleground that doesn't favor the Fighter or the AC while being fairly common for D&D.

And Entangle also works with roots, for example. Or lichen. Or some such. But again, this is AC vs. Fighter, not Druid & AC vs. Fighter.

[sofawall]

I've never seen a ruling that says you don't need plants for Entangle, but there's one that works with stone in... Cityscape, I think? that does the same thing.

[Bayar]

I've never seen a ruling that says you don't need plants for Entangle, but there's one that works with stone in... Cityscape, I think? that does the same thing.

Go read the description of the spell. NOW.

[Yuki Akuma]

Here we go:



Entangle
Transmutation
Level: Drd 1, Plant 1, Rgr 1
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
Area: Plants in a 40-ft.-radius spread
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Reflex partial; see text
Spell Resistance: No

Hmm. Looks like you need *gasp!* plants! Well I'll be.

But roots would work. Or lichen. Mold wouldn't, because mold isn't a type of plant. :smallwink:

[Drakyn]

Technically, lichen are fungus combined with something photosynthetic. Is that near enough? I mean, apparently some sort of algae is often the partner.