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oxinabox
2009-09-04, 08:46 PM
I just played a one off 10th lvl core only game.
though i'ld try out druid.

So, Dump stats: dex, str, con (well con would help with HP)
Important stats: Wis
So Un mad it's not funny.

So wildshap into a dinosaur: I get more attacks perround than my optimisedd soulbow, at a better to hit.
and I am a full on caster.

WTF?
The only thing that unbreak it slightly it is the ladst of 'do you class lvl number of d6 damage.

Kylarra
2009-09-04, 09:08 PM
Eh, it's the same as any of the top tier classes.

Gorgondantess
2009-09-04, 09:13 PM
Yup. 7th level wizards get polymorph- ostensibly, they're even more powerful than druids with that, if they're unafraid to go into the dark depths of gouda.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-04, 09:17 PM
Wildshape: There's a tier 3 class that gets a nerf'd version of this and nothing else.
Animal Companion: You get a Fighter as a class feature.
Spellcasting: This alone makes it one of the top 6 classes in the game.

Yeah, they're balanced. [/sarcasm]

oxinabox
2009-09-04, 09:19 PM
Wizards can't cast under polymorph though (can they? :smalleek:)

But Druids, so little Mad!
AntiMAD.
Built in dumpstats.

I can just imagine the cheeze you could get up to with templates.
Ahahah! IMy animal compainon is a into a Mineral warrior, lolthtouched, (insets Str boosting templates here), dinosause,
it still has under 10 HD.

Kylarra
2009-09-04, 09:21 PM
Wizards can't cast under polymorph though (can they? :smalleek:)

But Druids, so little Mad!
AntiMAD.
Built in dumpstats.

I can just imagine the cheeze you could get up to with templates.
Ahahah! IMy animal compainon is a into a Mineral warrior, lolthtouched, (insets Str boosting templates here), dinosause,
it still has under 10 HD.
All the top tier classes are SAD.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-04, 09:23 PM
Wizards can't cast under polymorph though (can they? :smalleek:)

But Druids, so little Mad!
AntiMAD.
Built in dumpstats.

I can just imagine the cheeze you could get up to with templates.
Ahahah! IMy animal compainon is a into a Mineral warrior, lolthtouched, (insets Str boosting templates here), dinosause,
it still has under 10 HD.Druids are the most SAD class out there(needing no stats if boosting the AC, Con only if Wildshaping for melee, Wis only if casting). However, you cannot Wildshape into a Templated creature, and ACs can only choose from the list, not from templates(unless there is a specific exception in a feat you took or on the template itself).

mikej
2009-09-04, 09:23 PM
Druid is like having 2 Melee and 1 Caster in one neat package. Venture out a a little bit from core and it get's really silly.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-04, 09:36 PM
Wizards can't cast under polymorph though (can they? :smalleek:)


This spell functions like alter self,


If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.

Yeah, they can. Later versions of Polymorph (like Displacer Form or Body of War in the Spell Compendium) don't allow this, but no one casts those unless they are trying to make a point. Or corpse.

Emy
2009-09-04, 11:00 PM
Wildshape: There's a tier 3 class that gets a nerf'd version of this and nothing else.
Animal Companion: You get a Fighter as a class feature.
Spellcasting: This alone makes it one of the top 6 classes in the game.

Yeah, they're balanced. [/sarcasm]

No. They don't get a fighter as a class feature. They get a monk.


Natural weapons (Flurry of Blows, Unarmed Strike)
Evasion/Improved Evasion (Evasion/Improved Evasion)
Natural Armor Adj. (AC Bonus)
3/4 BAB (3/4 BAB)
Multiattack, extra feats from bonus HD (Bonus feats)


The advantage being, of course, that animal companions automatically come with a druid who can buff them.

On the other hand, monks get partially charged wands, full WBL (except the part they spent on all their consumables), and goodies like Sacred Fist (by the text, not the table).

Doc Roc
2009-09-04, 11:15 PM
On the other hand, monks get partially charged wands, full WBL (except the part they spent on all their consumables), and goodies like Sacred Fist (by the text, not the table).

I'd still rather have an animal companion.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-04, 11:19 PM
I'd still rather have an animal companion.

Yeah. At least I never have to share XP with my T-Rex.

Bob the Urgh
2009-09-04, 11:20 PM
I don't know about the AC being a monk, dire boars are way beefier (porkier?) than any monk out there.

Mystic Muse
2009-09-04, 11:22 PM
I don't know about the AC being a monk, dire boars are way beefier (porkier?) than any monk out there.

which is why you get a bull and bypass all that confusion of proper wording.:smallwink:

Xenogears
2009-09-04, 11:27 PM
Yeah, they can.

That depends on how tight or loosely the DM rules the line "the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components."

Though you could still cast Still, Silent, no material component spells...

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-04, 11:30 PM
That depends on how tight or loosely the DM rules the line "the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components."

Though you could still cast Still, Silent, no material component spells...

Last I checked Lizardfolk were fully capable of speaking and casting spells...

As can dragons, thanks to the MM and Draconomicon ruling in their favor. Dragonwrought is considered a good option for more reasons than just Loredrake and Venerable benefits.

ZeroNumerous
2009-09-04, 11:31 PM
"the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components."

So basically you need a mouth and human-like hands. So War Trolls, Firbolgs and other favored Polymorph Any Object choices are still valid.

Mando Knight
2009-09-04, 11:33 PM
That depends on how tight or loosely the DM rules the line "the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components."

Dragon. Has natural sorcerer spellcasting, and so apparently has a 0% arcane failure chance and ability to use both verbal and somatic components. Done.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-04, 11:37 PM
Yup. 7th level wizards get polymorph- ostensibly, they're even more powerful than druids with that, if they're unafraid to go into the dark depths of gouda.Polymorph is Minutes/level, though, which means that you won't always have it at the start of combat unless you're willing to burn an action on it, and even so, it's cutting into your 4th level spell slots. Wildshape is all day and free, and gets you similar levels of power(animals are actually pretty good for their HD, compared to, say, Dragons, and retain a lot more of what makes them dangerous compared to the other types).

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-05, 12:03 AM
Polymorph is Minutes/level, though, which means that you won't always have it at the start of combat unless you're willing to burn an action on it, and even so, it's cutting into your 4th level spell slots. Wildshape is all day and free, and gets you similar levels of power(animals are actually pretty good for their HD, compared to, say, Dragons, and retain a lot more of what makes them dangerous compared to the other types).

Shapechange, however, may as well be an all-day spell.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-05, 12:13 AM
Shapechange, however, may as well be an all-day spell.

And doesn't come online until level 17. Which is why Wildshape > Polymorph for levels 5-16, unless using Persist cheese.

Doc Roc
2009-09-05, 12:44 AM
17th? You mean 14th with ur priest and a domain.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-05, 12:50 AM
17th? You mean 14th with ur priest and a domain.

Well since not all characters are Ur Priests, and we were specifically talking about Wizards, and in fact most characters aren't Ur Priests, and in fact being an Ur Priest actually sucks a lot without serious CL abuse, which is why people play Wizards or Clerics with PrCs instead...

Besides, it's level 15 for Clerics, since they don't care about Int and can become smarter versions of themselves in Demon form for two weeks on a single spell.

Jergmo
2009-09-05, 01:10 AM
Yeah. At least I never have to share XP with my T-Rex.

Congratulations! You're level 16+ and have a standard (maybe slightly stronger) CR 8-9 T-Rex, which has a horrendous armor class, and you can't take it inside with you! Also, if it dies (and it most likely will), you will have to go find and tame a new one, or shell out the money to have it raised!

Edit: Also, teleporting it around with you should be fun, since it counts as...is it 16 Medium creatures? Or 8? Either way.

Haven
2009-09-05, 01:30 AM
So wildshap into a dinosaur: I get more attacks perround than my optimisedd soulbow, at a better to hit.
and I am a full on caster.

Going from Soulbow to Druid. Hella whiplash.

olentu
2009-09-05, 01:38 AM
Congratulations! You're level 16+ and have a standard (maybe slightly stronger) CR 8-9 T-Rex, which has a horrendous armor class, and you can't take it inside with you! Also, if it dies (and it most likely will), you will have to go find and tame a new one, or shell out the money to have it raised!

Edit: Also, teleporting it around with you should be fun, since it counts as...is it 16 Medium creatures? Or 8? Either way.

One can get a new one after a day of praying though the non bonus tricks would be lost.

Jergmo
2009-09-05, 01:43 AM
One can get a new one after a day of praying though the non bonus tricks would be lost.

It still remains an infeasible companion.

Kylarra
2009-09-05, 01:47 AM
It still remains an infeasible companion.
Agreed. Fleshraker dinos are much better. :smalltongue:

olentu
2009-09-05, 01:47 AM
It still remains an infeasible companion.

Well it may not be the most convenient but I have managed a huge companion before.

Edit: There are certainly better choices.

Frosty
2009-09-05, 02:51 AM
You can choose the feats of your AC right? Your T-rex might do REALLY well with some Setting-Sun maneuvers. Or hell, with two feats, your T-rex can (one per encounter) do a cool move...and then do stuff like constantly give your parts a +2 bonus on Will saves (+4 vs fear), or be able to Spider-Climb, or be able to Constrict for 2d6+1.5 Str bonus when it grapples you.

Or hell, his stance should just be Island of Blades. Suddenly, all the enemies in the vicinity are likely to be flanked.

Bayar
2009-09-05, 03:53 AM
Agreed. Fleshraker dinos are much better. :smalltongue:

True dat. Anyone saying that AC's are like monks... show me a monk that can pwn faces at level 4+.

Myrmex
2009-09-05, 03:53 AM
Wildshape: There's a tier 3 class that gets a nerf'd version of this and nothing else.
Animal Companion: You get a Fighter as a class feature.
Spellcasting: This alone makes it one of the top 6 classes in the game.

Yeah, they're balanced. [/sarcasm]

You know, I used to think that was an exaggeration, before someone really gamed their animal companion. Core only, and the differences is HUGE. Druids naturally need little armor, so putting full plate and a +4 str belt on their already high str, high armor AC makes it that much more intimidating. An optimized animal companion is virtually as good as an optimized fighter, in core. Outside of core, I think the fighter pulls ahead because of more options. The fighter also has to get real creative with magic items, while the druid just needs a spell or two for the AC.

Saph
2009-09-05, 04:09 AM
You can choose the feats of your AC right? Your T-rex might do REALLY well with some Setting-Sun maneuvers.

BBEG Druid: "So, you may have defeated all my minions . . . but now you must face the ultimate challenge. The JUDO T-REX!"
*T-Rex emerges from the shadows and starts doing martial arts kata*

Kris Strife
2009-09-05, 04:23 AM
BBEG Druid: "So, you may have defeated all my minions . . . but now you must face the ultimate challenge. The JUDO T-REX!"
*T-Rex emerges from the shadows and starts doing martial arts kata*

This needs to be in a movie.

BobVosh
2009-09-05, 04:25 AM
This needs to be in a movie.

I'm sure Michael Bay would do it.

Wings of Peace
2009-09-05, 05:45 AM
Polymorph is Minutes/level, though, which means that you won't always have it at the start of combat unless you're willing to burn an action on it, and even so, it's cutting into your 4th level spell slots. Wildshape is all day and free, and gets you similar levels of power(animals are actually pretty good for their HD, compared to, say, Dragons, and retain a lot more of what makes them dangerous compared to the other types).

Anima Mage, Incantatrix, Tainted Scholar/Tainted Sorcerer, Anything + Sacred Exorcist and Nightsticks, Dweomer Keeper antics, etc. All of these combined with Peristent Spell get you an all day morph.

Eldariel
2009-09-05, 05:54 AM
Anima Mage, Incantatrix, Tainted Scholar/Tainted Sorcerer, Anything + Sacred Exorcist and Nightsticks, Dweomer Keeper antics, etc. All of these combined with Peristent Spell get you an all day morph.

Polymorph is Touch though so not directly subject to Persistent Spell. You'd need Reach Spell-shenanigans to apply it and even those are controversial under the "apply metamagic to the original spell"-limitation.

Wings of Peace
2009-09-05, 05:59 AM
Polymorph is Touch though so not directly subject to Persistent Spell. You'd need Reach Spell-shenanigans to apply it and even those are controversial under the "apply metamagic to the original spell"-limitation.

It's arguable yes but there are people who would also argue that touch is a fixed range. I would say that much depends on the DM. I do not think there is enough RAW evidence to entirely say fixed range does not include touch.

Calmar
2009-09-05, 06:16 AM
What luck that dinosaurs are everywhere.

Eldariel
2009-09-05, 06:20 AM
It's arguable yes but there are people who would also argue that touch is a fixed range. I would say that much depends on the DM. I do not think there is enough RAW evidence to entirely say fixed range does not include touch.

Well, Touch range varies depending on your size which is the principal issue with stating it's fixed.

#Raptor
2009-09-05, 06:42 AM
All the top tier classes are SAD.Nope.

DMM-Cleric:
Wis, Cha, Con, Str (13 is a pre-req for Power Attack)... some Int, no Dex.

You got 1 stat of kinda low importance (Int) and only one true dumpstat (Dex). So he's got plently of MAD.
And yet, the DMM-Cleric is undoubtedly a Tier-1 class.

Eldariel
2009-09-05, 06:44 AM
Nope.

DMM-Cleric:
Wis, Cha, Con, Str (13 is a pre-req for Power Attack)... some Int, no Dex.

You got 1 stat of kinda low importance (Int) and only one true dumpstat (Dex). So he's got plently of MAD.
Yet, the DMM-Cleric is undoubtedly a Tier-1 class.

But all the Cleric NEEDS is Wis & Con. If he wants to melee, he should add Str, true. But he doesn't need it. And yeah, Cha is nice for Turn attempts, but most of them will come from Extra Turnings/Nightsticks depending on DM leniency anyways. Cleric can benefit of multiple stats, but doesn't need them to be awesome.

#Raptor
2009-09-05, 06:55 AM
But all the Cleric NEEDS is Wis & Con. If he wants to melee, he should add Str, true. But he doesn't need it. And yeah, Cha is nice for Turn attempts, but most of them will come from Extra Turnings/Nightsticks depending on DM leniency anyways. Cleric can benefit of multiple stats, but doesn't need them to be awesome.
So youre saying that a cleric will be just fine without Power Attack? Okay...

Just as a sidenote... Nightsticks.... well yeah, if ur DM allows those, what are we even doing here talking about balance? Strikes me as fairly pointless.

If you don't go into melee, ok. You won't need all of those stats. Con is still important, but you can dump Str and Cha.

But then it becomes questionable if you should still count yourself as a Tier-1 class. I'd rate a Sorcerer (t2) higher than a spellcasting/summoning Cleric anyday.

Eldariel
2009-09-05, 06:56 AM
So youre saying that a cleric will be just fine without Power Attack? Okay...

If he doesn't fight, no. If he e.g. focuses on Persisting buffs like Lesser Vigor, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful and so on, he's just fine without Power Attack.

#Raptor
2009-09-05, 07:06 AM
Well yeah. I suppose a tier 1 class making itself tier 2 by choice is still fine.

But if the cleric wants to be tier 1, PA and some melee hacking and slaying pretty much becomes a necessity - since you're simply not as good a caster as the arcanes.

OFC this is barring holy word CL boosting and such - I think this goes without saying, but since we already had a mention of nightsticks in this thread..

Sir Giacomo
2009-09-05, 07:10 AM
You know, I used to think that was an exaggeration, before someone really gamed their animal companion. Core only, and the differences is HUGE. Druids naturally need little armor, so putting full plate and a +4 str belt on their already high str, high armor AC makes it that much more intimidating. An optimized animal companion is virtually as good as an optimized fighter, in core. Outside of core, I think the fighter pulls ahead because of more options. The fighter also has to get real creative with magic items, while the druid just needs a spell or two for the AC.

Except that a fighter (or monk at that) does not get outsmarted by a simple first level spell.:smallbiggrin:
Also, the usually do their stuff without wasting move actions to tell them what to do (and still failing for the more complex stuff)

Ah...the "Animal companion is better than fighter" fallacy. It never grows old...:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

kamikasei
2009-09-05, 07:43 AM
Also, the usually do their stuff without wasting move actions to tell them what to do (and still failing for the more complex stuff)

"A druid can handle her animal companion as a free action".

shaddy_24
2009-09-05, 07:46 AM
Heck, a level 1 druid has an effective animal companion. I've been in a game where the druid's companion had more health, and AC than the fighter, as well as the same attack bonus at level 1. Combine things like animal growth, magic fang, barkskin, and a couple other spells, and the companion starts getting pretty tank at higher levels.

Asheram
2009-09-05, 07:47 AM
Except that a fighter (or monk at that) does not get outsmarted by a simple first level spell.:smallbiggrin:
Also, the usually do their stuff without wasting move actions to tell them what to do (and still failing for the more complex stuff)

Ah...the "Animal companion is better than fighter" fallacy. It never grows old...:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Oooh.. I don't know. A fighter shouldn've seen much magic in his life.
As well there's no strain on xp, no fighting over equipment, and don't forget such pretty little extra feats like scent and the extra skillpoints that certain compainons will have. I'd wager you good money on that an animal companion by the campire will spot, or hear, an enemy on about twice the distance of a fighter.

And don't forget, as stated before; the animal compaion is "Free". Lose it and you'll have another within the day, should you be close to a pack of the same kind of animal.

kamikasei
2009-09-05, 07:53 AM
Oooh.. I don't know. A fighter shouldn've seen much magic in his life.

I think Giacomo is referring to this specific spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hideFromAnimals.htm), though it's pretty fragile protection - you could ward your entire party against animals, but then you all lose it once any of you make any attack or any animal touches you, so essentially the single AC being instructed to wander around and try to rub blindly against some warded creature is denying the entire enemy group offensive actions.


And don't forget, as stated before; the animal compaion if "Free". Lose it and you'll have another within the day, should you be close to a pack of the same kind of animal.

The loss of WBL may be a serious blow, though, depending on how the AC dies and how much you've been investing in it.

Eldariel
2009-09-05, 08:02 AM
The loss of WBL may be a serious blow, though, depending on how the AC dies and how much you've been investing in it.

Rarely do creatures die in a fashion that destroys equipment; usually absolutely 0 money is lost in that endeavor. Of course losing an AC is a bummer and RP-wise not something you'd ever want to happen, but crunch-wise it's a fact that Animal Companion will not require Resurrection, whereas a character death probably does.

But yeah, Giacomo, don't go making up Fallacies where there are none. That's really...pointless. They have slightly different strong points, but in Core, an AC matches up to a Fighter (or god forbid, a Monk) pretty well.

Asheram
2009-09-05, 08:22 AM
I think Giacomo is referring to this specific spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/hideFromAnimals.htm), though it's pretty fragile protection - you could ward your entire party against animals, but then you all lose it once any of you make any attack or any animal touches you, so essentially the single AC being instructed to wander around and try to rub blindly against some warded creature is denying the entire enemy group offensive actions.

Oooh. I didn't even know about that spell.
Fun thing though, that spell is for Rangers and Druids only, so if you're using that spell, you probably have an AC in the group anyhow.

Aneantir
2009-09-05, 08:32 AM
But yeah, Giacomo, don't go making up Fallacies where there are none. That's really...pointless. They have slightly different strong points, but in Core, an AC matches up to a Fighter (or god forbid, a Monk) pretty well.

I think he just really, REALLY, likes the word fallacy. I've seen all kinds of debates with him go something along the lines of:

"Hey. Monks are pretty MAD, eh?"
"Nope! Thats a fallacy!"
"Wait, what? No, they're dependant on multiple ability scores."
"Nope, definetly not, thats just a fallacy propagated by people who hate monks!"
"But-"
"FALLACY!"

Zipding
2009-09-05, 09:09 AM
Well, if you can make a powerful enough druid or cleric, you have fallen under the category of CorDzilla(Cleric or Druidzilla). These are probably the most broken, combine druid with Master of Many Forms, and you really have a broken class.

Eldariel
2009-09-05, 09:19 AM
Well, if you can make a powerful enough druid or cleric, you have fallen under the category of CorDzilla(Cleric or Druidzilla). These are probably the most broken, combine druid with Master of Many Forms, and you really have a broken class.

Meh, straight Druid kicks MoMF's ass any day. MoMF is nice, but nowhere near as strong as 9th level spells (Hello, SHAPECHANGE! The entire class and then some in one spell).

mikej
2009-09-05, 09:19 AM
Well, if you can make a powerful enough druid or cleric, you have fallen under the category of CorDzilla(Cleric or Druidzilla). These are probably the most broken, combine druid with Master of Many Forms, and you really have a broken class.

Planar Shepherd?

quick_comment
2009-09-05, 09:27 AM
Except that a fighter (or monk at that) does not get outsmarted by a simple first level spell.:smallbiggrin:
Also, the usually do their stuff without wasting move actions to tell them what to do (and still failing for the more complex stuff)



Really? What exactly does sleep do then?

Eloel
2009-09-05, 09:31 AM
Animal Companions don't need move actions to be told what to do, you're thinking of bought mounts. Animal Companions are free-action.

kamikasei
2009-09-05, 09:34 AM
Really? What exactly does sleep do then?

In fairness to Giacomo, sleep is a one-shot offensive spell granting a will save. Hide from animals is a lasting defensive spell that grants the AC no save or other means to negate it. It's much fairer to describe it as "outsmarting the AC" than to describe sleep as doing the same to its targets.

It's just a terrible option since it only keeps the AC off you, for as long as it takes for it to touch off one of the warded creatures while wandering around the relevant squares, but in order to keep it active everyone warded by it has to avoid attacking (via weapon or spell) anyone else, so they're entirely at the mercy of the druid himself and his allies.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-05, 10:48 AM
Well yeah. I suppose a tier 1 class making itself tier 2 by choice is still fine.

But if the cleric wants to be tier 1, PA and some melee hacking and slaying pretty much becomes a necessity - since you're simply not as good a caster as the arcanes.

OFC this is barring holy word CL boosting and such - I think this goes without saying, but since we already had a mention of nightsticks in this thread..

Dude, Clerics are Tier 1 without ever using melee. There is a reason that it's called "Cleric Archer."

And yes they are SAD. Some decent Con + Wisdom + Cha for leftovers. Use Polymorph and Polymorph Any Object to get outrageous Str bonuses to damage and Outsider shenanigans.

Kylarra
2009-09-05, 11:05 AM
Nope.

DMM-Cleric:
Wis, Cha, Con, Str (13 is a pre-req for Power Attack)... some Int, no Dex.

You got 1 stat of kinda low importance (Int) and only one true dumpstat (Dex). So he's got plently of MAD.
And yet, the DMM-Cleric is undoubtedly a Tier-1 class.
Being able to use multiple stats effectively != needing multiple high stats.

Cloistered Cleric (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#clericVariantCloistere dCleric) running with Knowledge devotion will be just fine on hitting and damage, not as much as PA, but a boost easily.

CHA? That's just 1-3 more turn attempts, easily replicated by undeath domain or just taking the feat manually for 3-1 more attempts. Useful, but not crippling as long as it's non negative.

INT? Useful yes, but Cloistered Clerics already get 6 base skillpoints/level

CON isn't needed by a cleric more than other classes.

So really all they need is WIS to cast their spells. Everything else is just gravy along the same lines as everyone else.

ericgrau
2009-09-05, 11:52 AM
In core, without custom made ever-changing to fit the latest wild shape form magic item cheese, wildshaped druids and their animal companions are behind in AC and so-so in damage. That's simply comparing their stats to my cheese-free, simple as can be core fighter builds. Last game I played with a wildshaped druid he was fairly unimpressive compared to the party paladin, ranger/barbarian and just about everyone else for that matter. As for getting that and spellcasting, it's kind of like a mystic theurge. They can use one ability or another each round, but not both, and in the end both the casting and the melee are behind compared to focused classes. Small note to OP: You can dump str and dex but not con; you keep your normal HP when you wildshape.

I have seen builds w/ magic items specially fit to the wildshape form OTOH that were way OP. Where they buy them, where they sell them and what they do when they get a new wildshape form, I dunno. Not to mention the fact that the wildshape errata was meant to fix something brokenlingly overpowered. Do you think that was the ability for wildshaped druids to use gear or do you think it was meant as a minor inconvenience to force them to don specially made gear instead??

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-05, 11:56 AM
In core, without custom made ever-changing to fit the latest wild shape form magic item cheese, wildshaped druids and their animal companions are behind in AC and so-so in damage. That's simply comparing their stats to my cheese-free, simple as can be core fighter builds. Last game I played with a wildshaped druid he was fairly unimpressive compared to the party paladin, ranger/barbarian and just about everyone else for that matter. As for getting that and spellcasting, it's kind of like a mystic theurge. They can use one ability or another each round, but not both, and in the end both the casting and the melee are behind compared to focused classes. Small note to OP: You can dump str and dex but not con; you keep your normal HP when you wildshape.

I have seen builds w/ magic items specially fit to the wildshape form OTOH that were way OP. Where they buy them, where they sell them and what they do when they get a new wildshape form, I dunno. Not to mention the fact that the wildshape errata was meant to fix something brokenlingly overpowered. Do you think that was the ability for wildshaped druids to use gear or do you think it was meant as a minor inconvenience to force them to don specially made gear instead??I'm surprised. You normally are much etter with the estoric rules.
When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn’t be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.

There may be rare exceptions, especially with racial specific items. Magic items not fitting a Lion is the exception, not the rule.

tyckspoon
2009-09-05, 12:00 PM
I have seen builds w/ magic items specially fit to the wildshape form OTOH that were way OP. Where they buy them, where they sell them and what they do when they get a new wildshape form, I dunno. Not to mention the fact that the wildshape errata was meant to fix something brokenlingly overpowered. Do you think that was the ability for wildshaped druids to use gear or do you think it was meant as a minor inconvenience to force them to don specially made gear instead??

The only specially made gear you need for 90% of wildshape forms is armor, and there are half a dozen special armors and armor qualities that let you keep that benefit if you want. Wondrous items will fit on pretty much any normal animal without special adjustments.

ericgrau
2009-09-05, 12:03 PM
Errata says all magic items meld into the new form.

I imagine the armor enchantment to use armor in wildshaped form bumps the druid's abysmal AC up to something reasonable, but I haven't checked this carefully. But it puts the armor +3 behind, which is substantial. Barding OTOH, plus other AC items, gets crazy high.

Kylarra
2009-09-05, 12:05 PM
Errata says all magic items meld into the new form.I believe general practice is to drop them and have your party re-equip you.

ericgrau
2009-09-05, 12:06 PM
Yeah, that's the questionable minor inconvenience I was referring to originally. You really think that's what the errata was meant to cause?

tyckspoon
2009-09-05, 12:09 PM
Yeah, that's the questionable minor inconvenience I was referring to originally. You really think that's what the errata was meant to cause?

I really don't think it matters what it meant to cause. It's what it *did* cause, and it's disingenuous to claim otherwise if you're trying to teach people what the rules are.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-05, 12:20 PM
Errata says all magic items meld into the new form.

I imagine the armor enchantment to use armor in wildshaped form bumps the druid's abysmal AC up to something reasonable, but I haven't checked this carefully. But it puts the armor +3 behind, which is substantial. Barding OTOH, plus other AC items, gets crazy high.

1) Which is why you take items off before wildshaping.

2) Those magical form fitting items are called wilding clasps, you can attach them to any item, and they work for all wildshape forms.

3) The Armor enhancement doesn't put them behind because Magic Vestment exists, but even if it did, they don't have abysmal or something reasonable.

A core Druid at level 16 (I didn't want to bother looking through animals) turning into an Air Elemental has an AC of 10 +8 Armor +4 enhancement +9 Dex +4 Natural +5 enhancement to NA +1 free dodge feat -2 size =38 or 39 with dodge. At the cost of 19,300gp.

Now, give me a budget equal to the difference in money spent between 19,300gp and what your fighter spent at that level, and I'll easily match or exceed your Core fighter's AC.

Not to mention, There are probably animals with better AC than an Air Elemental.

Kylarra
2009-09-05, 12:27 PM
Yeah, that's the questionable minor inconvenience I was referring to originally. You really think that's what the errata was meant to cause?I presume in their minds it was supposed to balance something. Of course core also features 3 of the big 5, so...

Sir Giacomo
2009-09-05, 01:28 PM
"A druid can handle her animal companion as a free action".

SRD: A druid or ranger can handle her animal companion as a free action or push it as a move action.
[...]To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn’t know but is physically capable of performing.
Well, I do not know what you believe animals can do, but that covers a LOT of stuff that comes up (edit: or better: CAN come up, edit end) during an adventure :smallsmile:



But yeah, Giacomo, don't go making up Fallacies where there are none. That's really...pointless. They have slightly different strong points, but in Core, an AC matches up to a Fighter (or god forbid, a Monk) pretty well.

Care to provide an animal companion that can fight enemies at range, do non-lethal damage, communicate with everyone in the group, use an animal for combat itself, use command word items and order drinks in a bar? Start with level 1 and work your way up :smallbiggrin: Really.
And apart from that, at every level, the fighter will be ahead of the animal companion in combat. The AC (the armour one :smalltongue:) will be higher, the feats will be better and the wbl used more efficiently.

- Giacomo

kamikasei
2009-09-05, 01:36 PM
Well, I do not know what you believe animals can do, but that covers a LOT of stuff that comes up during an adventure :smallsmile:

I'm making the assumption that the druid has trained the AC to do whatever it might need to do in a combat. Sure, it's going to be inferior to the fighter if the tactical situation suddenly necessitates reciting the alphabet backwards while standing on one leg, but when it comes to fighting there should be no action cost to having it perform properly.

What things do you imagine the AC would be called upon to do where this would be an issue? Are they things for which a commoner would sub just as well as a fighter?

Tiki Snakes
2009-09-05, 01:48 PM
SRD: A druid or ranger can handle her animal companion as a free action or push it as a move action.
[...]To push an animal means to get it to perform a task or trick that it doesn’t know but is physically capable of performing.
Well, I do not know what you believe animals can do, but that covers a LOT of stuff that comes up (edit: or better: CAN come up, edit end) during an adventure :smallsmile:



Care to provide an animal companion that can fight enemies at range, do non-lethal damage, communicate with everyone in the group, use an animal for combat itself, use command word items and order drinks in a bar? Start with level 1 and work your way up :smallbiggrin: Really.
And apart from that, at every level, the fighter will be ahead of the animal companion in combat. The AC (the armour one :smalltongue:) will be higher, the feats will be better and the wbl used more efficiently.

- Giacomo

Sure, a fighter can 'use an animal' as in, he could buy one, and pump handle animal. Might be quite cool at lowish levels.

Of course, The animal companion could just raise a pack of it's own, if we're getting theoretical rather than actually talking about things related to the actual class. Which, actually, would be a pretty cool, (belgarath style) character concept.
Wolfy Druid, with appropriate wolfy AC, and non-ac pack built up over RP time or simply by giving the AC leadership? It'd be pretty fun, I'd think.

As for communicating with the group, btw...I take it you were denied the chance to watch Lassie come home, or the Littlest Hobo when you were younger, then? :)

"What's that, boy? The cleric is stuck in a well?!"

The Glyphstone
2009-09-05, 01:52 PM
Care to provide an animal companion that can fight enemies at range, do non-lethal damage, communicate with everyone in the group, use an animal for combat itself, use command word items and order drinks in a bar? Start with level 1 and work your way up :smallbiggrin: Really.
And apart from that, at every level, the fighter will be ahead of the animal companion in combat. The AC (the armour one :smalltongue:) will be higher, the feats will be better and the wbl used more efficiently.

- Giacomo

-Comparing an archer fighter to a melee animal companion's not applicable, because if the fighter's built for archery, he's going to suck horribly in melee compared to the AC.
-Animals can do nonlethal just as easily as a fighter if they're instructed to do so - the Subdue Trick is in CAdv.
-Fighters aren't meant to communicate with people, they hit stuff.:smallbiggrin:
-Why would a fighter be using animals for combat? The Druid can use additional animals just as easily as he can, and gets them for free via SNA.
-For bar brawls, having the AC just guarantees there will be at least 1 sober 'party member' who can protect their master and friends. The fighter would be smashed and far less useful.
-Fighters get more feats than ACs (even with the extra HD), but one of the fighter's biggest problems is the lack of good feats to take. A Dire Lion can pull off the Shock Trooper Ubercharge chain of doom just as easily as a Fighter and still have feats left over, though not as many.
-Don't forget that at higher levels, Armor Class becomes basically meaningless unless you put a ton of work into it. A fighter who's optimized his Armor Class will fall behind in damage and utility, where the completely gear-less AC who didn't have to spend a couple hundred thousand gold doing so is still within shouting distance at the important things (hitting stuff and killing it).

Doc Roc
2009-09-05, 02:05 PM
I think this debate is going nowhere and we should abandon it before it rips out of control and we have a 50 page long thread.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-05, 02:06 PM
Care to provide an animal companion that can fight enemies at range, do non-lethal damage, communicate with everyone in the group, use an animal for combat itself, use command word items and order drinks in a bar? Start with level 1 and work your way up :smallbiggrin: Really.

Swindlespitter+2,500gp for crystal mask of languages. What now?

Sir Giacomo
2009-09-05, 02:11 PM
I think this debate is going nowhere and we should abandon it before it rips out of control and we have a 50 page long thread.

Seconded. I guess after the monkening campaign, I'll try to do some fighter vs AC duels.:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Edit: just this:

--Why would a fighter be using animals for combat? The Druid can use additional animals just as easily as he can, and gets them for free via SNA.

Sorry, I actually only thought about riding a mount for combat (plus the feats). That's one of the fighter class strengths

kamikasei
2009-09-05, 02:12 PM
I think this debate is going nowhere and we should abandon it before it rips out of control and we have a 50 page long thread.

Or just give it its own thread.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-05, 02:20 PM
Hey, Giacomo, scroll up slightly and you'll see a talking AC.

Tiki Snakes
2009-09-05, 02:21 PM
So, from my limited build-fu, It seems that an 11th level druid has an animal companion that counts as at least 6th level? So the 11th level druid's animal companion can take Leadership, and gain it's own animal cohort and some animal followers (depending on how nice the DM feels, of course). It could also have taken wild cohort at first level, and have a second animal cohort of it's own. If we add in some animal-focused leadership to the druid, maybe take a flaw and add a wild-cohort there as well, you've pretty quickly got an entire wolf (or at least vaguely canine)pack keeping watch at night, scouting the area, and generally being adorable.

I'm going to make a note, in case I ever get dragged into a pathfinder or 3.5 game, I think. :)

Apparently an Awakened animal cannot serve as an Animal Companion, Familiar or Special Mount. No mention of Cohorts and/or Wild Cohorts, so...pack of super-intelligent wolves? Yessss.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-05, 02:23 PM
Sorry, I actually only thought about riding a mount for combat (plus the feats). That's one of the fighter class strengths

Fighters get a mount as a class feature?












Shenanigans.

Flickerdart
2009-09-05, 02:26 PM
Sorry, I actually only thought about riding a mount for combat (plus the feats). That's one of the fighter class strengths
That's the Paladin. The Paladin's mount is also better than the Fighter (because you can get one of the ones that fly).

Sir Giacomo
2009-09-05, 02:36 PM
Fighters get a mount as a class feature?

Shenanigans.

You mean you play in campaigns where the only people riding are paladins, druids and rangers and characters with leadership? Interesting concept. But the ride skill is enough in most instances.:smallwink:

- Giacomo

Dixieboy
2009-09-05, 02:38 PM
You mean you play in campaigns where the only people riding are paladins, druids and rangers and characters with leadership? Interesting concept. But the ride skill is enough in most instances.:smallwink:

- Giacomo

No, it isn't.

Seeing as the thing will have about 12 hp it'll just be a temporary speed boost.
(Temporary as in "Until next fireball is cast")

Sir Giacomo
2009-09-05, 02:42 PM
So, from my limited build-fu, It seems that an 11th level druid has an animal companion that counts as at least 6th level? So the 11th level druid's animal companion can take Leadership, and gain it's own animal cohort and some animal followers (depending on how nice the DM feels, of course). It could also have taken wild cohort at first level, and have a second animal cohort of it's own. If we add in some animal-focused leadership to the druid, maybe take a flaw and add a wild-cohort there as well, you've pretty quickly got an entire wolf (or at least vaguely canine)pack keeping watch at night, scouting the area, and generally being adorable.

I'm going to make a note, in case I ever get dragged into a pathfinder or 3.5 game, I think. :)

Apparently an Awakened animal cannot serve as an Animal Companion, Familiar or Special Mount. No mention of Cohorts and/or Wild Cohorts, so...pack of super-intelligent wolves? Yessss.


I think you need to have 6 character levels to take leadership ... and I do not think animal companions can have those ...


No, it isn't.

Seeing as the thing will have about 12 hp it'll just be a temporary speed boost.
(Temporary as in "Until next fireball is cast")

Heavy Warhorse for 400gp has 30hp and a reflex of +5. Not too bad ...

- Giacomo

Boci
2009-09-05, 02:45 PM
Heavy Warhorse for 400gp has 30hp and a reflex of +5. Not too bad ...

- Giacomo

Shame it cannot be replaced if it dies in the wilderness. Plus two fireballs and its usually going to be dead, since it has no evasion.

The Glyphstone
2009-09-05, 02:46 PM
Now I have a hilarious image of a Fighter who spends a massive chunk of his WBL on a horse farm, from which he has to replenish his mount after every encounter. It's not realistic to assume the mount would die every fight, but that's why it's funny.

nightwyrm
2009-09-05, 02:49 PM
Now I have a hilarious image of a Fighter who spends a massive chunk of his WBL on a horse farm, from which he has to replenish his mount after every encounter. It's not realistic to assume the mount would die every fight, but that's why it's funny.

Just pay the party wizard to set aside a few lv 1 slots for Mount each day. Prolly cheaper in the long run, lol.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-05, 03:18 PM
Heavy Warhorse for 400gp has 30hp and a reflex of +5. Not too bad

30hp... at level... 15?

I think that would die. A Lot.

Eldariel
2009-09-05, 03:24 PM
And apart from that, at every level, the fighter will be ahead of the animal companion in combat. The AC (the armour one :smalltongue:) will be higher, the feats will be better and the wbl used more efficiently.

Feats I'll give you (though "better" is the wrong word and animals replace many feat benefits with racial abilities and in core, ACs actually one-up fighters with access to Pounce, something fighter-types lack), but Armor Class on Companions is trivially better simply because they have inherent Natural Armor (that grows really fast if you take the level-ups, I might add) in addition to Bardings (Armor-bonus), and whatever defensive boost spells you use to provide the other two types.

Hell, they're not barred from using Animated Shields as Animated Shield doesn't require proficiency and pretty much works automatically. They'll also have quite high natural Str and often multiple natural attacks.

Oslecamo
2009-09-05, 03:26 PM
Druids silly? What would you call artificers then?

Yes, I'm a fullcaster, I just cast everything two levels before the other caster dudes.
And I also get to apply free metamagic to my spells whitout even needing to burn feats on it.


Now that's silly!

Eldariel
2009-09-05, 03:33 PM
Druids silly? What would you call artificers then?

Yes, I'm a fullcaster, I just cast everything two levels before the other caster dudes.
And I also get to apply free metamagic to my spells whitout even needing to burn feats on it.


Now that's silly!

But Druid has the "I get a free Cohort of equivalent level and am actually both, a fighter and a full caster in and of myself...oh, and I get more skillpoints than basically any full casters. And have best Spot & Listen in the game." Artificer and the rest of the top tier of course make for good competition, but I think Druids win the "most ridiculous right out of the box"-award.

nightwyrm
2009-09-05, 03:40 PM
Druids win the "most ridiculous right out of the box"-award.

This really. Other caster classes may need a bit of player knowledge and some spell selection know-how to avoid gimping themselves. Druids just need to know to take Natural Spell.

Tiki Snakes
2009-09-05, 03:45 PM
I think you need to have 6 character levels to take leadership ... and I do not think animal companions can have those ...



Heavy Warhorse for 400gp has 30hp and a reflex of +5. Not too bad ...

- Giacomo

I'm so far from an expert at such hijinks that it's laughable, it's worth noting. HOWEVER, as far as I can tell from the SRD, the creature's 'class level' whenever that is relevant, is derived from it' bonus HD? Given the way it gets them in chunks, it'll basically have to wait till 11th level or so before the AC counts as high enough to be at least Class-Level 6.

I could be wrong, of course. :)

Equally, I'm sure there are fromage-related ways to make that 6 bonus HD swing around sooner, but I barely even know 3.5 these days, so I'm not the one to ask. ^_^

Oslecamo
2009-09-05, 03:47 PM
But Druid has the "I get a free Cohort of equivalent level and am actually both, a fighter and a full caster in and of myself...oh, and I get more skillpoints than basically any full casters. And have best Spot & Listen in the game."
Wizard and artificer get more skillpoints because they're int based. And there's plenty of spells so you don't need spot and listen at all.

As for cohort...
-Animate dead
-Charm
-Dominate
-Planar biding
-Simulacrum
-Gate

Do I need to say more? Why have a bear when you can have a hellbeast of doom? Or an army of them actually?



Artificer and the rest of the top tier of course make for good competition, but I think Druids win the "most ridiculous right out of the box"-award.
I've seen druid players decide that shooting heavy crossbows was the best course of action for their class.

Really, if you didn't memorize the MMs, druid doesn't even hold a candle to the other fullcasters. And MMs are big books.

Eldariel
2009-09-05, 03:50 PM
Wizard and artificer get more skillpoints because they're int based. And there's plenty of spells so you don't need spot and listen at all.

As for cohort...
-Animate dead
-Charm
-Dominate
-Planar biding
-Simulacrum
-Gate

Do I need to say more? Why have a bear when you can have a hellbeast of doom? Or an army of them actually?

*shrug* Bears are often quite the good match for Hellbeasts of Doom. But yeah, while those require notably more awareness of the system to use efficiently, they are doubtless efficient bordering on bahr0kenness.



I've seen druid players decide that shooting heavy crossbows was the best course of action for their class.

Really, if you didn't memorize the MMs, druid doesn't even hold a candle to the other fullcasters. And MMs are big books.

Oh sure, if Druid has no worthwhile Wildshape forms nor Animal Companion, he's gonna suck it up. But really, just that you're PLAYING Druid should probably have you at least read up the Animals-section from MM.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-05, 03:50 PM
Leadership [General]
Prerequisite
Character level 6th.

"Character level" is a synonym for "HD". It doesn't care about classes.

Now, if it said "Class level 6th", on the other hand...

So yes, an animal companion qualifies for Leadership. Which is hilarious and I have to try it some time.

Kylarra
2009-09-05, 03:50 PM
I've seen druid players decide that shooting heavy crossbows was the best course of action for their class.

Really, if you didn't memorize the MMs, druid doesn't even hold a candle to the other fullcasters. And MMs are big books.On the flipside...

I've seen wizard players do the same with light crossbows.
I've seen clerics heal in combat.
etc.

Just because tier 1 classes can be played badly, doesn't change anything.

Oslecamo
2009-09-05, 03:54 PM
*shrug* Bears are often quite the good match for Hellbeasts of Doom. But yeah, those require notably more awareness of the system to use efficiently.
Sir, you do realize that a single wraith will make the bear run away in panic, cohortism be damned don't you?

Not to mention you're limited to a single one. Free yes, but one, while the other methods have bigger caps, or no caps at all.

Heck, the wizard will probably mindrape the bear and make him attack his old master just for the lulz.



Oh sure, if Druid has no worthwhile Wildshape forms nor Animal Companion, he's gonna suck it up. But really, just that you're PLAYING Druid should probably have you at least read up the Animals-section from MM.

While a wizard or cleric player only needs to read the PHB. Who rules right outside of the box now?:smallwink:

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-05, 03:56 PM
Animals can be trained to fight undead, and it's simple enough to make an animal's natural attacks magical enough to hit a wraith.

Eldariel
2009-09-05, 03:56 PM
Sir, you do realize that a single wraith will make the bear run away in panic, cohortism be damned don't you?

Not to mention you're limited to a single one. Free yes, but one, while the other methods have bigger caps, or no caps at all.

Heck, the wizard will probably mindrape the bear and make him attack his old master just for the lulz.

Bleh, Druid has his own magic for a reason :P But yeah, Bear can be taught to attack unnaturals - a true animal companion will rip a Wraith a new one (Greater Magic FANGGGGG!)!


While a wizard or cleric player only needs to read the PHB. Who rules right outside of the box now?:smallwink:

But certainly they want to know the Demons and Angels and Undead and company they can create/summon, right? :smalltongue:

Oslecamo
2009-09-05, 04:00 PM
Bleh, Druid has his own magic for a reason :P But yeah, Bear can be taught to attack unnaturals - a true animal companion will rip a Wraith a new one (Greater Magic FANGGGGG!)!
...
Unnatural Aura (Su)

Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of a wraith at a distance of 30 feet. They will not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range.

As you can see, the bear has no chance no matter how much you buff him.




But certainly they want to know the Demons and Angels and Undead and company they can create/summon, right? :smalltongue:
That's a bonus. They don't really need them to crush the druid.

Kylarra
2009-09-05, 04:16 PM
Eh, cleric I might concede the point to, but not wizard. Straight out of the box at level 1, the druid comes with a fighter while still packing spells like a fullcaster.

Cleric has the same base hp and also full armor.

Wizard does have arcane [> divine] spells, but is incredibly squishy.

With the cleric and wizard, I'd actually have to do something to participate in combat. With the druid, I can point my finger at the target and have my wolf eat them while doing whatever I want with my standard actions.

quick_comment
2009-09-05, 04:18 PM
...
Unnatural Aura (Su)

Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of a wraith at a distance of 30 feet. They will not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range.


Until you render them immune to fear.

Tiki Snakes
2009-09-05, 04:25 PM
So, yes. Amateur SRD diving continues;

So, the Druid takes his wolf as an animal companion. He also takes Wild-Cohort, and picks up another Wolf. Both have 2 HD, as far as I can tell.
When he gets to 3rd level, his Wolf AC gets 2 bonus HD, and can take an extra Feat. WolfAC takes Wild Cohort (Attracts a Mate), who has 3 HD at this point. Druid Cohort has 3hd also. Both also get a feat, perhaps, which looks to me like an infinate loop of 3hd Wolves. Wasn't expecting that, tbh. anyway, we'll assume it caps there, though.

So, at 3rd level, the pack is;
Druid
Has; Animal Companion, Wild Cohort.
Animal Companion has a Cohort,
Wild Cohort has a Cohort.
Lets say at this point, we have 3 wolves on 3hd, and one on 4.

At level 6, the druid takes Leadership, and as his DM is nice/weak willed, let's him have another Wolf. The wolf could have 4hd at this point, so he could well have his own cohort wolf also. With the penalties to leadership score from having other cohorts, he probably only has 3 though. His wolf now has 6hd, and could also take leadership, but would probably only get a very weak wolf.

The Cohorts don't get high enough to take Leadership for a while yet, though, taking till the Druid hits level 9.
(I originally didn't spot the Wolves 2d8 hd, so you can have a decent pack much earlier than I thought, so effectively you could cheese out a whole load of wolves by the Level I thought you'd have to start at. Unless you manage to get a reputation going through wolf society, you're unlikely to see many followers turning up through leadership though, and if you lost any wolves at any point, the leadership related wolves would quite simply dry up almost right away, though it doesn't actually say anything about them going away as your leadership score drops, it WOULD make replacing them pretty unlikely.
Wild Cohort works more like Animal Companion in that respect, so replacing them is actually possible. Would probably just stick to Wild-Cohort wolves with their own wild-cohort wolves, personally.

At level 3, that's a pretty intimidating number of wolves, all at the same decent HD. They start to spread out a bit as you go up in level, though.

This partially is just me discovering the cheese possible with leadership, but the Druid's AC being involved, amongst other things, does make it golden for me. You'd probably want a pretty decent Handle-Animal check for this, too, because you only have Direct influence on the first two wolves in the chain, and to some degree will have to rely on them to administer to the rest of the pack. Maybe, as you're stupid SAD anyway, splash on a half-decent CHA and lead the pack by handle-animal and force-of-personality, Ceaser Millan style.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-05, 04:30 PM
...
Unnatural Aura (Su)

Animals, whether wild or domesticated, can sense the unnatural presence of a wraith at a distance of 30 feet. They will not willingly approach nearer than that and panic if forced to do so; they remain panicked as long as they are within that range.

As you can see, the bear has no chance no matter how much you buff him.



That's a bonus. They don't really need them to crush the druid.

Fox's Cunning turns him into a Magical Beast temporarily, though that causes other problems.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-05, 04:35 PM
Care to provide an animal companion that can fight enemies at range, do non-lethal damage, communicate with everyone in the group, use an animal for combat itself, use command word items and order drinks in a bar? Start with level 1 and work your way up :smallbiggrin: Really.
And apart from that, at every level, the fighter will be ahead of the animal companion in combat. The AC (the armour one :smalltongue:) will be higher, the feats will be better and the wbl used more efficiently.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/FaxCelestis/giacomo.png

Bayar
2009-09-05, 05:14 PM
Sup dawg, I herd you liked wolves, so I gave your wolf animal companion Leadership for a wolf cohort who takes wild cohort (wolf) so you can howl at the moon while you howl at the moon. Also rip faces off.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/bayar_m2003/Banners/Druid11.png

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/bayar_m2003/Banners/Druid2.png

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/bayar_m2003/Banners/Druid3.png

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff15/bayar_m2003/Banners/Druid4.png

Credits go to Saph for the idea.

vrellum
2009-09-05, 08:11 PM
So, yes. Amateur SRD diving continues;

So, the Druid takes his wolf as an animal companion. He also takes Wild-Cohort, and picks up another Wolf. Both have 2 HD, as far as I can tell.
When he gets to 3rd level, his Wolf AC gets 2 bonus HD, and can take an extra Feat. WolfAC takes Wild Cohort (Attracts a Mate), who has 3 HD at this point. Druid Cohort has 3hd also. Both also get a feat, perhaps, which looks to me like an infinate loop of 3hd Wolves. Wasn't expecting that, tbh. anyway, we'll assume it caps there, though.

So, at 3rd level, the pack is;
Druid
Has; Animal Companion, Wild Cohort.
Animal Companion has a Cohort,
Wild Cohort has a Cohort.
Lets say at this point, we have 3 wolves on 3hd, and one on 4.

At level 6, the druid takes Leadership, and as his DM is nice/weak willed, let's him have another Wolf. The wolf could have 4hd at this point, so he could well have his own cohort wolf also. With the penalties to leadership score from having other cohorts, he probably only has 3 though. His wolf now has 6hd, and could also take leadership, but would probably only get a very weak wolf.

The Cohorts don't get high enough to take Leadership for a while yet, though, taking till the Druid hits level 9.
(I originally didn't spot the Wolves 2d8 hd, so you can have a decent pack much earlier than I thought, so effectively you could cheese out a whole load of wolves by the Level I thought you'd have to start at. Unless you manage to get a reputation going through wolf society, you're unlikely to see many followers turning up through leadership though, and if you lost any wolves at any point, the leadership related wolves would quite simply dry up almost right away, though it doesn't actually say anything about them going away as your leadership score drops, it WOULD make replacing them pretty unlikely.
Wild Cohort works more like Animal Companion in that respect, so replacing them is actually possible. Would probably just stick to Wild-Cohort wolves with their own wild-cohort wolves, personally.

At level 3, that's a pretty intimidating number of wolves, all at the same decent HD. They start to spread out a bit as you go up in level, though.

This partially is just me discovering the cheese possible with leadership, but the Druid's AC being involved, amongst other things, does make it golden for me. You'd probably want a pretty decent Handle-Animal check for this, too, because you only have Direct influence on the first two wolves in the chain, and to some degree will have to rely on them to administer to the rest of the pack. Maybe, as you're stupid SAD anyway, splash on a half-decent CHA and lead the pack by handle-animal and force-of-personality, Ceaser Millan style.

I haven't checked it out to see if your plan works, but if it does, then anybody could do it almost as well as the druid. So it's not that big of a boost to the druid.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-05, 08:23 PM
I haven't checked it out to see if your plan works, but if it does, then anybody could do it almost as well as the druid. So it's not that big of a boost to the druid.

Guess what? If it works, then the Druid is the only one capable of pulling it off without it requiring an additional party who is going to cut into XP, Treasure, and other resources (such as healing). He's also the only one capable of restoring this method of attack within 24 hours without using Rez spells (as Wild Cohort doesn't give you that ability, IIRC).

vrellum
2009-09-05, 09:56 PM
Why would someone else need another party member? Take wildcohort and then your wild cohort takes the feat, then his takes the feat, repeat until tired.

The druid isn't much better at this because either way you can get as many as you want. I suppose druids could regenerate their forces in 24-hours, but they'd have to lose their animal companion to do so.

Diamondeye
2009-09-05, 10:27 PM
Why would someone else need another party member?

Because there's those 4 other dudes sitting at the table with you and if you don't let them play to they'll drink all your beer.

sofawall
2009-09-05, 10:56 PM
I think this debate is going nowhere and we should abandon it before it rips out of control and we have a 50 page long thread.

This seems to happen when a certain someone posts...

Anyway, what do we mean by "out of the box"? I thought we meant "Without optimization", or with the kind of optimization a first time player might use, but others are using it to mean low level.

For the former definition, I think Druids rock some socks. You, just with class features, no spells, beat a fighter. Usually. And that's with no spells.


Why would someone else need another party member? Take wildcohort and then your wild cohort takes the feat, then his takes the feat, repeat until tired.

The druid isn't much better at this because either way you can get as many as you want. I suppose druids could regenerate their forces in 24-hours, but they'd have to lose their animal companion to do so.

I seem to recall you needing HD for Wild Cohort, and the HD of the thing you get goes down each time. Draconic Cohort, on the other hand...

Doc Roc
2009-09-06, 01:49 AM
Sup dawg, I herd you liked wolves, so I gave your wolf animal companion Leadership for a wolf cohort who takes wild cohort (wolf) so you can howl at the moon while you howl at the moon. Also rip faces off.

Credits go to Saph for the idea.

So many damn cookies.

Tiki Snakes
2009-09-06, 02:16 AM
I haven't checked it out to see if your plan works, but if it does, then anybody could do it almost as well as the druid. So it's not that big of a boost to the druid.

Oh, it's not meant to prove anything per say. But few other classes could actually semi-permenantly be part of the pack, and also get some long term use out of parts of it. (on account of the AC keeping pace much better, so at least your pack leader remains genuinely competitive, even if the Cohorts slowly start to lag behind.)

oxinabox
2009-09-06, 07:57 AM
@Bayar: mind if i sig large3 parts of that?

also "Meld with stone" spell= you have something sweeter than a burrow speed.
It allows me to search for traps when there was no rogue, almost basically better than fly around the dungeon,
And ment i was the only surviving PC in an otherise TPK.
I leave and return with all the kings horses and all the kings men, no; all the kings palidins and all the kings lvl 15+ casters. (and we level the dungeon).
after comba't
Me:"What do you mean it was a Half Dragon - Dragon? it's mother was a dragon and it's father was, also, a Dragon?"
DM:"Yes, you could call this a 'pink' dragon. immune to fire and cold
Me: "that increases the CR, how much?"
DM: "+2"

on a different note:
Servant to king: "Sire, theres a druid assain in the keep!"
T-Rex Pounces out from wall, tears them both in half.
Gaurd run around arms flainign in the air:
'Ahhh! There's a druid in the walls! AHh!"

Sir Giacomo
2009-09-06, 08:00 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/FaxCelestis/giacomo.png

I forgot the fighter's advantage of more hp, skill points and full BAB :smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Bayar
2009-09-06, 08:21 AM
@oxinabox: Of course. That is why I drew them in the first place. Just credit me since I forgot to sign them.

Also lol @ Rex in a wall.

mikej
2009-09-06, 08:38 AM
@oxinabox: Of course. That is why I drew them in the first place. Just credit me since I forgot to sign them.

I'd also like to sig ( been meaning to add another signature ) those images. Big Druid fan here. I'll probally need to put it into a spoiler tage because of the size. Is that okay?

Bayar
2009-09-06, 08:46 AM
I'd also like to sig ( been meaning to add another signature ) those images. Big Druid fan here. I'll probally need to put it into a spoiler tage because of the size. Is that okay?

Yes, sure.

oxinabox
2009-09-06, 08:47 AM
I accurly ment the

Sup dawg, I herd you liked wolves, so I gave your wolf animal companion Leadership for a wolf cohort who takes wild cohort (wolf) so you can howl at the moon while you howl at the moon. Also rip faces off.
I don't think i could have all the images, even if i spoiler taggecd themm, and to have just one would detract from them.

the text in the second lastone wouldn't make any sens to start with

Bayar
2009-09-06, 09:07 AM
Yes you can sig me :tongue:

I need my ego stroked.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-06, 10:24 AM
I forgot the fighter's advantage of more hp, skill points and full BAB :smallsmile:

- Giacomo1 extra HP/HD, 2 fewer skill points. And yes, the Fighter's at full BAB, but the Druid's entire attack routine is at nearly the same bonus(natural weapons+Multiattack), while the Fighter is looking at a 75% less chance of hitting with his last attack compared to his first one.

Doc Roc
2009-09-06, 11:39 AM
1 extra HP/HD, 2 fewer skill points. And yes, the Fighter's at full BAB, but the Druid's entire attack routine is at nearly the same bonus(natural weapons+Multiattack), while the Fighter is looking at a 75% less chance of hitting with his last attack compared to his first one.

You and your "math" have no power here. :smallwink:

Kelpstrand
2009-09-06, 11:41 AM
He's talking about the AC. He's basically admitted that Fighters can never compare themselves to Druids, so he's doing it against ACs.

Just point of note: ACs get as many skill points and many racial bonuses to skills, making them better skill monkeys than fighters as well. And they often have better Con, giving them more HP, depending on the Fighter build.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-06, 11:43 AM
The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).

Animals get skills and/or bonuses to most of the physical skills. This leaves Intimidating, Riding, Handle Animal, and Crafting to the fighter, roles he does not normally excel in due to his having to distribute few skill points among several skills.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-06, 11:50 AM
The highest skill points a fighter can reasonably be expected to have are 4 per level. 3 if he's not human. Most fighters who don't intend on taking Combat Expertise will only have 2 (or 3, if human).

Animals always get 1 per level, so they're not that far behind. Plus, all animals get racial bonuses to skills that a fighter is likely to want to put ranks in. They're pretty similar.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-06, 11:53 AM
Animals get skills and/or bonuses to most of the physical skills. This leaves Intimidating, Riding, Handle Animal, and Crafting to the fighter, roles he does not normally excel in due to his having to distribute few skill points among several skills.

Fighters don't even get more skill points.

I have the feeling this argument will go something like this:

Giamoco: But Fighters can have 14 Int. And be Human and have 5 skill points per level.
Others: But then they aren't as good at fighting as an AC.
Giamoco: But Fighters can be Orcs with Str 22!
Others: but then they can't have skill points or more HP.
Giamoco: But Fighters can have 14 int and be human. Or Be Dwarves with 20 Con!
Others: Oh Giamoco. How about you build us an example Fighter, since al your Fighters manage to be 50PB apparently.

So I suggest we skip all that and get right to:

Make an example fighter of levels: 1, 4, 7, 11.

We are not going to compare his ability to activate wands. We are going to compare his AC, average damage per round, and ability to knock people prone.

We will compare him against a Core AC that can choose any feats, and a non Core animal that is explicitly called out as being an AC, who can only choose Core feats.

The Fighter will have WBL, but see what we are actually comparing. The AC will have 2,500gp for a crystal mask of languages.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-06, 11:56 AM
This sort of thing never goes well. And even if he goes through with it, Giacomo never changes his tune.

Ever.

- Yuki Akuma

nightwyrm
2009-09-06, 11:57 AM
Comparing an entire PC character to the weakest class feature of another class. Hasn't he already lost?

*facepalm*

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-06, 12:00 PM
Weakest class feature?

The animal companion is the third-most powerful druid class feature!

Their weakest feature is Nature Sense - oh yay, +2 bonus to Knowledge (Nature) and Survival!

nightwyrm
2009-09-06, 12:02 PM
Weakest class feature?

The animal companion is the third-most powerful druid class feature!

Their weakest feature is Nature Sense - oh yay, +2 bonus to Knowledge (Nature) and Survival!

Oh druids have those things? I don't even remember that they got stuff besides spells, wildshape and AC.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-06, 12:04 PM
Druids have tons of class features.

Many of them are very good class features.

This is one of the main problems about the druid.

Bayar
2009-09-06, 12:05 PM
Comparing an entire PC character to the weakest class feature of another class. Hasn't he already lost?

*facepalm*

Fleshraker dinosaur at level 4. 'nuff said.



(the following is not directed at nightwyrm just a counter for anyone who might debate dinosaurs)
And dont come to me saying "dinosaurs dont exist since they are extinct whinewhinewhine". My druid is a talenta halfling. That means he is SUPPOSED to ride dinosaurs. Give me a reason why dinosaurs should be extinct in a FANTASY SETTING. Oh yeah, because they are extinct in the real world they have to be extinct in D&D too. Well then, there should not be spellcasters or monster manuals then because the real world doesnt have those too !

Eldariel
2009-09-06, 12:08 PM
Their weakest feature is Nature Sense - oh yay, +2 bonus to Knowledge (Nature) and Survival!

That's actually really handy 'cause it means a Druid truly gets by without spending points in Survival and boosts the Knowledge (Nature) (if some DMs use it to determine what you're familiar with) to expand your Wildshape options. Druids "only" get 4+Int skills per level, so obviously any extra helps. Now, Resist Nature's Lure is what I truly consider to be the weakest of their abilities: "Starting at 4th level, a druid gains a +4 bonus on saving throws against the spell-like abilities of fey."

Since Druids' saves are already so obscene and fey are a very specific creature group and not one Druids should spend that much time fighting with (though of course, there are always the unseelie fey, but even they should have some respect for a Druid), so that one really ain't gonna matter practically ever. Amusingly enough, on just about any other class (save maybe Cleric), I'd actually welcome that ability.

nightwyrm
2009-09-06, 12:12 PM
That's actually really handy 'cause it means a Druid truly gets by without spending points in Survival and boosts the Knowledge (Nature) (if some DMs use it to determine what you're familiar with) to expand your Wildshape options. Druids "only" get 4+Int skills per level, so obviously any extra helps. Now, Resist Nature's Lure is what I truly consider to be the weakest of their abilities: "Starting at 4th level, a druid gains a +4 bonus on saving throws against the spell-like abilities of fey."

Since Druids' saves are already so obscene and fey are a very specific creature group and not one Druids should spend that much time fighting with (though of course, there are always the unseelie fey, but even they should have some respect for a Druid), so that one really ain't gonna matter practically ever. Amusingly enough, on just about any other class (save maybe Cleric), I'd actually welcome that ability.

Come now, a bonus to save is never useless.

Reading the druid again, I'd have to put up Trackless Step as the weakest. 1) How often do NPCs track PCs without DM fiat anyways and 2) Druid leaving no tracks is kinda meaningless when the rest of his group is leaving tracks.

Eldariel
2009-09-06, 12:17 PM
Come now, a bonus to save is never useless.

It's useless when you'd make your save on a 1 anyways; Druids have completely obscene saves so that's not at all outside the realm of possibility (other than with Reflex-saves, but what Fey-creatures have spell-likes requiring Reflex?).

And it only works against spell-likes; not any casting from Fey nor vs. any Supernaturals from Fey (which are far more numerous).


Reading the druid again, I'd have to put up Trackless Step as the weakest. 1) How often do NPCs track PCs without DM fiat anyways and 2) Druid leaving no tracks is kinda meaningless when the rest of his group is leaving tracks.

1) If you're leaving tracks, you'll get more encounters in at least my games :o

2) That's why you play with a party of only Druids :smallsmile:

But yeah, Trackless Step is pretty weak too. Still, I don't think I've ever been in a situation where Resist Nature's Lure would've been both, relevant and applicable. That's the sole reason I'm picking it over Trackless Steps.

nightwyrm
2009-09-06, 12:20 PM
Hey, this discussion of the druid's weakest feature is actually more interesting than the rest of the thread.

Well, a Satyr with pipes is a CR 4, his charm person (SU) has a DC of 13. A lv 4 druid with 18 wis only has a +8 to will saves. So that +4 is useful, HA. (But yeah, I'm just scraping the bottom of the barrel here...:smallbiggrin:)

Eldariel
2009-09-06, 12:28 PM
Hey, this discussion of the druid's weakest feature is actually more interesting than the rest of the thread.

Well, a Satyr with pipes is a CR 4, his charm person (SU) has a DC of 13. A lv 4 druid with 18 wis only has a +8 to will saves. So that +4 is useful, HA. (But yeah, I'm just scraping the bottom of the barrel here...:smallbiggrin:)

And it's Su, while this ability only works vs. Sp. Case in point. :smallcool:

nightwyrm
2009-09-06, 12:34 PM
And it's Su, while this ability only works vs. Sp. Case in point. :smallcool:

Right, I got Su and Sp mixed up. So, it's spell like abilities so...

err...CR 3 Dryads with her DC 13 charm person and DC 15 deep slumber?

Eldariel
2009-09-06, 12:40 PM
err...CR 3 Dryads with her DC 13 charm person and DC 15 deep slumber?

Yeah, that works. So it might matter if a low-level Druid meets a Dryad under hostile terms...which is extremely likely!

Kelpstrand
2009-09-06, 12:43 PM
Right, I got Su and Sp mixed up. So, it's spell like abilities so...

err...CR 3 Dryads with her DC 13 charm person and DC 15 deep slumber?

And why is a Druid fighting Dryads at all? And why is the Dryad using those against the Druid, when it's will save at level 3 is +8-10 already, and everyone else is at +3.

nightwyrm
2009-09-06, 12:43 PM
Yeah, that works. So it might matter if a low-level Druid meets a Dryad under hostile terms...which is extremely likely!

About as likely as the lone druid in a party not consisting of all druids to not leave tracks is gonna be useful. :smallbiggrin:

nightwyrm
2009-09-06, 12:48 PM
And why is a Druid fighting Dryads at all? And why is the Dryad using those against the Druid, when it's will save at level 3 is +8-10 already, and everyone else is at +3.

Come on, I'm defending Resist Wild Lure to not be the most useless druid feature. I gotta find some corner cases (much like the ppl defending fighters vs casters).

Ooooo...CR 1 Grigs got a DC 13 entangle SLA.

Eldariel
2009-09-06, 12:51 PM
About as likely as the lone druid in a party not consisting of all druids to not leave tracks is gonna be useful. :smallbiggrin:

I dunno, even if the party gets detected, at least the opposition will misestimate the party size :smalltongue: Vastly more useful than bonuses vs. creatures you should never be fighting as a Druid in the first place!

Besides, you don't even have Resist Nature's Lure before level 4.

Doc Roc
2009-09-06, 12:51 PM
Pass without a trace is actually incredibly good. One simple reason:

There's no way to penetrate it. It just out-right turns off whole class abilities and means of detection

nightwyrm
2009-09-06, 12:53 PM
I dunno, even if the party gets detected, at least the opposition will misestimate the party size :smalltongue: Vastly more useful than bonuses vs. creatures you should never be fighting as a Druid in the first place!

They're in the Monster Manual. You've got to fight them, they're monsters!!!!!!

nightwyrm
2009-09-06, 12:55 PM
Pass without a trace is actually incredibly good. One simple reason:

There's no way to penetrate it. It just out-right turns off whole class abilities and means of detection

Trackless Step != Pass Without Trace

But see, a lv 3 class feature that's worse than a lv 1 druid spell. :smallbiggrin:

9mm
2009-09-06, 01:18 PM
So I suggest we skip all that and get right to:

Make an example fighter of levels: 1, 4, 7, 11.

We are not going to compare his ability to activate wands. We are going to compare his AC, average damage per round, and ability to knock people prone.

We will compare him against a Core AC that can choose any feats, and a non Core animal that is explicitly called out as being an AC, who can only choose Core feats.

The Fighter will have WBL, but see what we are actually comparing. The AC will have 2,500gp for a crystal mask of languages.

Because I'm a sucker for punishment (and a lover of all things Fighter)... What's the point buy, max LA, and are Dips/PrCs allowed or do you want straight fighters? Assuming average Max+Average for hit points.

Bayar
2009-09-06, 01:38 PM
Doubt that dips/prc's are allowed since we are discussing Fighter VS Animal companion. I mean, would a barbarian 1/fighter 2/totemist 4 or something would enjoy a warbeast/magebred/unkillable zombie riding dog ?

Yes, the last one is with a scroll bought from a cleric, so ?

9mm
2009-09-06, 01:51 PM
Doubt that dips/prc's are allowed since we are discussing Fighter VS Animal companion. I mean, would a barbarian 1/fighter 2/totemist 4 or something would enjoy a warbeast/magebred/unkillable zombie riding dog ?

Yes, the last one is with a scroll bought from a cleric, so ?

Probably, but it makes things easier at levels 7 and 11 which are weak fighter levels, the "no odd fighter levels" rule exists for good reason.

Sir Giacomo
2009-09-06, 01:53 PM
He's talking about the AC. He's basically admitted that Fighters can never compare themselves to Druids, so he's doing it against ACs.

No, I have not. Fighters are vastly more powerful than animal companions. But of course they are about on par with druids.


Just point of note: ACs get as many skill points and many racial bonuses to skills, making them better skill monkeys than fighters as well. And they often have better Con, giving them more HP, depending on the Fighter build.

Doesn't the INT malus of an animal apply to its skill points? I may have overlooked something, just let me know (really, no irony here).



Fighters don't even get more skill points.

I have the feeling this argument will go something like this:

Giamoco: But Fighters can have 14 Int. And be Human and have 5 skill points per level.
Others: But then they aren't as good at fighting as an AC.
Giamoco: But Fighters can be Orcs with Str 22!
Others: but then they can't have skill points or more HP.
Giamoco: But Fighters can have 14 int and be human. Or Be Dwarves with 20 Con!
Others: Oh Giamoco. How about you build us an example Fighter, since al your Fighters manage to be 50PB apparently.

So I suggest we skip all that and get right to:

Make an example fighter of levels: 1, 4, 7, 11.

We are not going to compare his ability to activate wands. We are going to compare his AC, average damage per round, and ability to knock people prone.

We will compare him against a Core AC that can choose any feats, and a non Core animal that is explicitly called out as being an AC, who can only choose Core feats.

The Fighter will have WBL, but see what we are actually comparing. The AC will have 2,500gp for a crystal mask of languages.

Go ahead, by all means! I am eager to see what kind of fighters you come up with for comparison, but you seem pretty fixed on the typical beginner's fighter type ... which would explain a lot :smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-06, 01:57 PM
No, I have not. Fighters are vastly more powerful than animal companions. But of course they are about on par with druids.

... No. No, really. They aren't. Please stop saying this. It's totally wrong.


Doesn't the INT malus of an animal apply to its skill points? I may have overlooked something, just let me know (really, no irony here).

They still get 1 skill point per level - they get 2 + Int skill points per level, just like Fighters.

Asheram
2009-09-06, 01:58 PM
Go ahead, by all means! I am eager to see what kind of fighters you come up with for comparison, but you seem pretty fixed on the typical beginner's fighter type ... which would explain a lot :smallsmile:

- Giacomo

I think the point was more for You to make that fighter, since you're pretty much representing the defending party here.

Dixieboy
2009-09-06, 02:00 PM
I've seen clerics heal in combat.
That's not playing horribly though as it may prevent TPK.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-06, 02:13 PM
Because I'm a sucker for punishment (and a lover of all things Fighter)... What's the point buy, max LA, and are Dips/PrCs allowed or do you want straight fighters? Assuming average Max+Average for hit points.

Straight Core Fighters with no LA. This is about Fighters, not Barbarians or anything else.

Level 7 is a gimp level, but level 11 was chosen for giving the extra attack to fighters, so it's hardly a level chosen to bias against the fighter. If your character is worse at half of all levels, it should have at least one level to represent those levels, in this case only level 7 is a level that doesn't give something important to the fighter.


Doesn't the INT malus of an animal apply to its skill points? I may have overlooked something, just let me know (really, no irony here).

Doesn't the Int Malus of fighters apply to skill points? Having an Int of 8 is exactly equivalent to an Int of 2 for the purposes of skill points.


Go ahead, by all means! I am eager to see what kind of fighters you come up with for comparison, but you seem pretty fixed on the typical beginner's fighter type ... which would explain a lot

No, Giamoco. I would wager I can make better fighters than you. I am not trapped in anything. I can also make better ACs than fighters. You are the one contending that Fighters are so great, so you make a fighter that is as good as the ACs being presented.

oxinabox
2009-09-06, 02:57 PM
leave Sir Giacomo alone.
He's a good bloke.

the Druid AC isn't ment to be better than a fighter.
It maybe once we break out the dino's, etc.

The peak of the AC was ment to be the Direbear.
Fluff wise anyway.
But for good or worse it isn't.

Heck direbear vs longsword a heavy sheild fighter, in full plate.
i don't know who'ld win.
...
Now lets assume he's power attacking like a B****.
and had a keen elven courtblade, in his back pocket.
and power critical.
and has rigged his D20.
If he Hit's he crits, otherwise he misses.
If he crits then; what 2*(1d10 +20)?
I imagine the direbear is meanwhile pummeling him in to the ground.
luckly the full plade is actully a Addymant fullplate of invunersabitity (even once the druid casts greater magic fang, it's still Addy)

SparkMandriller
2009-09-06, 02:59 PM
leave Sir Giacomo alone.
He's a good bloke.


Don't see why he'd post if he didn't want people to respond to him.

Bayar
2009-09-06, 03:04 PM
Don't see why he'd post if he didn't want people to respond to him.

Start flamewars...

Asheram
2009-09-06, 03:06 PM
Start flamewars...

Just whatever you do, don't mention the "M" word.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-06, 03:11 PM
No, I have not. Fighters are vastly more powerful than animal companions. But of course they are about on par with druids.

So build us a fighter that is both vastly superior to ACs and on par with druids. Let's see if it turns out as well as your monk.

Hey, wait, weren't you saying that wild shape was broken? How can a fighter be on part with druids if druids get broken stuff? What broken things do fighters get that is on part with that of druids?

Kelpstrand
2009-09-06, 03:13 PM
leave Sir Giacomo alone.
He's a good bloke.


I don't know who you think is attacking him that you have to defend him, but I wouldn't use 'good bloke' to describe anyone who feels it necessary to attack someone's optimization skill relating to something they have never seen in their entire life.

I don't run around finding people who have never posted any example of Rogue optimization and tell them they are 'obviously fixed on the typical beginner's fighter type' 'which would explain why they can't make a decent rogue at all'

That would be insulting for no reason based on my own ignorance.

That would not be 'good bloke' behavior.

Dublock
2009-09-06, 03:32 PM
Go ahead, by all means! I am eager to see what kind of fighters you come up with for comparison, but you seem pretty fixed on the typical beginner's fighter type ... which would explain a lot :smallsmile:
- Giacomo

Can you show what your build of a fighter is? Perhaps it can shed some light on why you think such a thing.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-06, 03:35 PM
In a discussion about polymorph, Giacomo called the Druid's wildshaping ability broken.

But fighters are still on par somehow?

Asheram
2009-09-06, 03:38 PM
In a discussion about polymorph, Giacomo called the Druid's wildshaping ability broken.

But fighters are still on par somehow?

I think the standard argument is "Fighter and (that other class) can match any other class perfectly" Taking for granted that there's a wizard around to do nothing but buff them

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-06, 03:40 PM
In a discussion about polymorph, Giacomo called the Druid's wildshaping ability broken.

But fighters are still on par somehow?

Right. He even claimed the Fighter was on-par with the Druid just a few posts ago. Here's the quote:


No, I have not. Fighters are vastly more powerful than animal companions. But of course they are about on par with druids.

Its clear that he doesn't understand class balance. Its been proven that the Druid is a more powerful class than the Fighter; such a claim means he's not familiar with the facts. This discredits his arguments.

Dixieboy
2009-09-06, 03:41 PM
This discredits his arguments.

Short answer: No.

Long answer: Obviously not, and saying that is quite arrogant.

Doc Roc
2009-09-06, 03:44 PM
Short answer: No.

Long answer: Obviously not, and saying that is quite arrogant.

Short answer: Whaaaaaaaaaaaaa? How so?

Long answer: Don't you think it's a bit presumptuous on your part to conveniently assume that Generally Nice Guy Sinfire Titan is being a bad dawg? I think your long answer needs to be a lot longer, and include some math. Yes, math.

mostlyharmful
2009-09-06, 03:45 PM
In a discussion about polymorph, Giacomo called the Druid's wildshaping ability broken.

But fighters are still on par somehow?

here it is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112900&page=24), from page 24 is where me and him start disagreeing.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-06, 03:45 PM
Short answer: No.

Long answer: Obviously not, and saying that is quite arrogant.

Doesn't being wrong generally discredit one's arguments?

Kylarra
2009-09-06, 03:46 PM
Right. He even claimed the Fighter was on-par with the Druid just a few posts ago. Here's the quote:



Its clear that he doesn't understand class balance. Its been proven that the Druid is a more powerful class than the Fighter; such a claim means he's not familiar with the facts. This discredits his arguments.
The extrapolation could also be that Giacomo believes fighters are more broken than druid wildshaping and thus are equal to the druid who can both wildshape and have an AC.



>____>

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-06, 03:47 PM
Short answer: No.

Long answer: Obviously not, and saying that is quite arrogant.

I'm sorry, that's what my Critical Thinking class taught me. His argument is built around ignoring established facts and misinterpreting abilities. His argument does not stand up to the holes that facts punch in it. Based on his arguments, he doesn't have a clear grasp of what is broken and what isn't.

He is not an authority on class balance (then again, no one really is, seeing as there's no specialists in this field), and yet claims that the Druid and Fighter are on-par with each other.

His argument is illogical. The facts are present, and he refuses to acknowledge them. His argument is invalid.


Don't you think it's a bit presumptuous on your part to conveniently assume that Generally Nice Guy Sinfire Titan is being a bad dawg? I think your long answer needs to be a lot longer, and include some math. Yes, math.

I've been known to be fairly vitriolic in the past. He has grounds for that assumption, though I am just exercising what I was taught by a high quality class lead by a qualified instructor.

Dublock
2009-09-06, 03:47 PM
here it is (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=112900&page=24), from page 24 is where me and him start disagreeing.

Off topic comment. I remember that thread...I read it all...I have no life sometimes :P (ok all the time :smallbiggrin::smallredface:)

Dixieboy
2009-09-06, 03:55 PM
Short answer: Whaaaaaaaaaaaaa? How so?

Long answer: Don't you think it's a bit presumptuous on your part to conveniently assume that Generally Nice Guy Sinfire Titan is being a bad dawg? I think your long answer needs to be a lot longer, and include some math. Yes, math.

Simply because he did not in fact supply any proof of his statement, he just made it.
His argument can be summed up to
"You are wrong, and because you are wrong, I am right."

Which isn't fair.
Really.

Why would I need math?

Bayar
2009-09-06, 03:57 PM
Simply because he did not in fact supply any proof of his statement, he just made it.
His argument can be summed up to
"You are wrong, and because you are wrong, I am right."

Which isn't fair.
Really.

Why would I need math?

His argument was more in the lines of: "You are wrong because you dont understand the classes, I am right because I do."

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-06, 04:01 PM
Simply because he did not in fact supply any proof of his statement, he just made it.
His argument can be summed up to
"You are wrong, and because you are wrong, I am right."

Which isn't fair.
Really.

Why would I need math?

I never declared myself as right. I decried his argument for being invalid. That doesn't make me right, it makes him wrong and tells us we should ignore his previous arguments.

This is a debate. There's no such thing as fair play or a gentlemen's agreement. In a debate, there are 4 sides: The neutrals who don't get involved, the wrong, the right, and those in between the wrong and the right. I'd like to think of myself as those in between at the moment, and I have just proven Gaicomo argument is invalid. He is, therefore, wrong.

I'm right yet, but my argument has yet to be proven completely wrong. Some holes have been shot in it (and some of those holes have been rendered invalid), so I'm still somewhere in between. My argument supports the facts, which have been proven to be right. My argument agrees with the right side, but my argument has not been accepted as right.


And math is good because numbers don't lie if you are doing it right.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-06, 04:01 PM
Here's an example druid I made: Andal Durrak (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=26623)

I am awaiting the fighter build for comparison.

Doc Roc
2009-09-06, 04:08 PM
I'd like to mention, and this may be a low blow, that Giacomo literally never tests his builds, whereas almost all of mine are either game-tested or iterations on known valid builds. I hear people tell me this isn't considered as important around here, which is why I rarely chime in, as I think maybe my perspective is really different and somewhat unwelcome. I belong to a school of game design hinging on empiricism and steady testing.

Andras
2009-09-06, 04:31 PM
I hear people tell me this isn't considered as important around here

It should be of the utmost importance. Presenting a build without testing it is like submitting code without debugging because it compiles right.

Dixieboy
2009-09-06, 04:33 PM
It should be of the utmost importance. Presenting a build without testing it is like submitting code without debugging because it compiles right.

Otherwise known as "Game developing"

Oslecamo
2009-09-06, 04:35 PM
And besides your word, Tidesinger what proof do we have of that?

Anyway, my fighter uses handle animal to get an army of purple worms.

The other druid does the same. We're on a tie since the druid's natural advantages are meaningless when there's one billion purple worms and other handle animaled beasts on each side.

My fighter picks martial study for IHS. It uses twisted caster logic to claim that the druid is an effect currently affecting him. Druid is ended. Fighter wins.

Druid can't do the same because it claimed the fighter couldn't affect him!:smallwink:

Really, who needs class features when you have skills and feats?:smallcool:

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-06, 04:38 PM
I'd like to mention, and this may be a low blow, that Giacomo literally never tests his builds, whereas almost all of mine are either game-tested or iterations on known valid builds. I hear people tell me this isn't considered as important around here, which is why I rarely chime in, as I think maybe my perspective is really different and somewhat unwelcome. I belong to a school of game design hinging on empiricism and steady testing.

In all fairness, I don't test my home brew personally (mostly because I can't). I ask others to play it and see where the kinks are.

When it comes to optimization, I check everything I post, and if someone else proves it wrong, I accept their stance and correct myself whenever I can. I've never played a Spell to Power Erudite, but I have played a Wizard and a Psion, and am very familiar with both of those classes. I have played all three Meldshapers, a Crusader, a Warblade, and DMed for a Swordsage. I have also played an Archivist.

If I advocate something, I expect people to take what I say with a grain of salt, but that's because I exaggerate things. People should take my words carefully, especially if I'm advocating something like the Erudite or Autohypnosis+Spellbook memorization. But when I press for Gestalt, Incarnum, or Tome of Battle, do know that I've had plenty of experience with those things (8 campaigns for Gestalt, 3 Incarnates, a Totemist, and Soulborn, and the previously stated XP with Tome of Battle).

Giacomo has openly stated that he never played one of his Joker Monks, and I highly doubt he's had enough experience with the Fighter to be comparing it to the Druid. If he can start producing statistical evidence and numbers to combat the facts that have been established in other threads regarding the Druid, then his argument may have some merit. Until then, I regard his argument as invalid and he himself as unqualified.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-06, 04:39 PM
And besides your word, Tidesinger what proof do we have of that?
I have seen these builds.

But Tidesinger's builds are not on trial here, so your comment is irrelevant.


Anyway, my fighter uses handle animal to get an army of purple worms.

The other druid does the same. We're on a tie since the druid's natural advantages are meaningless when there's one billion purple worms and other handle animaled beasts on each side.
Wouldn't the druid have an easier time finding purple worms to raise due to having knowledge about nature?



My fighter picks martial study for IHS. It uses twisted caster logic to claim that the druid is an effect currently affecting him. Druid is ended. Fighter wins.
I do not understand your phraseology. How is this caster logic?

Doc Roc
2009-09-06, 04:42 PM
Otherwise known as "Game developing"

Haha, no. I'm a programmer and a game designer, and I'd fire you for that.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-06, 04:44 PM
And besides your word, Tidesinger what proof do we have of that?

There's a saying that goes around the forums from time to time.


"Welcome to the internet, where the men are men, the women are men, and the children are FBI agents." (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.GIRL)

Doc Roc
2009-09-06, 04:44 PM
And besides your word, Tidesinger what proof do we have of that?



There's a saying that goes around the forums from time to time.


"Welcome to the internet, where the men are men, the women are men, and the children are FBI agents." (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.GIRL)


I don't think we need to resort to that. I understand your unwillingness to trust me, but there's a LOT of evidence. My guides, which are well-respected and used by the larger community, the testimony of my friends and even my erst-while opponents, the Test of Spite, a number of campaign diaries..... I don't know. It looks like the proof you have is pretty proof-shaped.

Andras
2009-09-06, 04:47 PM
Otherwise known as "Game developing"

:smalltongue: Yes. Well.

Dixieboy
2009-09-06, 04:48 PM
Haha, no. I'm a programmer and a game designer, and I'd fire you for that.

Please get a job at Bioware, rockstar, Treyarch, Bethesda or Maxis

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-06, 04:48 PM
Please get a job at Bioware, rockstar, Treyarch, Bethesda or Maxis.

In this economy?

Have fun!

Doc Roc
2009-09-06, 04:50 PM
Please get a job at Bioware, rockstar, Treyarch, Bethesda or Maxis.

Actually, I normally work in high assurances programming or rapid application development, where failure to use an automatic testing framework is regarded as completely ridiculous. I apply the lessons I've learned as a programmer to my work as a freelance designer. Why are you treating me poorly? What bone do you have to pick with me?

Dixieboy
2009-09-06, 04:51 PM
Actually, I normally work in high assurances programming or rapid application development, where failure to use an automatic testing framework is regarded as completely ridiculous. I apply the lessons I've learned as a programmer to my work as a freelance designer. Why are you treating me poorly? What bone do you have to pick with me?

I never treated you poorly.
What makes you think that?

Andras
2009-09-06, 04:52 PM
Actually, I normally work in high assurances programming or rapid application development, where failure to use an automatic testing framework is regarded as completely ridiculous. I apply the lessons I've learned as a programmer to my work as a freelance designer. Why are you treating me poorly? What bone do you have to pick with me?

I believe he was saying he wants someone who will actually test code at those companies. He doesn't seem to be attacking you.

Doc Roc
2009-09-06, 04:52 PM
I believe he was saying he wants someone who will actually test code at those companies. He doesn't seem to be attacking you.

D'oh. I'm an idiot sometimes.

Bayar
2009-09-06, 04:59 PM
Please get a job at Bioware, rockstar, Treyarch, Bethesda or Maxis

Wasnt Maxis bought by E.A. or something ? Also: Blizzard.

Dixieboy
2009-09-06, 05:01 PM
Wasnt Maxis bought by E.A. or something ? Also: Blizzard.

Blizzard does not release broken stuff last time I checked :smalltongue:
And Blizzard-Activision haven't really released anything yet.

Maxis was bought by E.A, yea.
They own Bioware too.
(And Rockstar I believe)

Anyway, I think this is about as OT as OT gets without invoking godwins law.

Bayar
2009-09-06, 05:06 PM
They dont own Rockstar ! Saying that is HERESY !!!

Doc Roc
2009-09-06, 05:07 PM
I'm going to coin a new term before we retopic:

Godwin's Limit
The maximal degree by which a thread can be derailed prior to the invocation of Godwin's Law.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-06, 05:08 PM
You know who else did that? Hitler.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-06, 05:29 PM
Blizzard does not release broken stuff last time I checked :smalltongue:
And Blizzard-Activision haven't really released anything yet.

Maxis was bought by E.A, yea.
They own Bioware too.
(And Rockstar I believe)

Anyway, I think this is about as OT as OT gets without invoking godwins law.

WoW fans would disagree with you on that. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameBreaker)


You know who else did that? Hitler.


Apparently, mentioning Godwin at all is enough to invoke Godwin's Law within three posts.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-06, 06:07 PM
Due to Pharoah's Fist's Avatar: I keep thinking he says Card games after his post (due to Yu-Gi-oh Adbridged).



Godwin's Limit
The maximal degree by which a thread can be derailed prior to the invocation of Godwin's Law.

Did you make that up?

Kelpstrand
2009-09-06, 06:11 PM
Yeah, the real deal with Blizzard is not that they don't release games with serious balance flaws. It's that unlike most people, they actually correct them.

Can't remember Diablo 2 pre patches, but WoW had Shamans ruling the day (I miss you...) Mutalisks were basically unstoppable, ect.

These mistakes were fixed. That's good. But they aren't above releasing seriously unbalanced games.

I hereby call Starcraft 2 has one dominating tactic in the first couple weeks which will need to be nerfed.

sofawall
2009-09-06, 06:35 PM
Blizzard does not release broken stuff last time I checked :smalltongue:

Enigma and Mutalisks laugh at your claim. No WoW experience, but I've heard silly things about Shaman and Ret Pallys.

But, as Jeremy on Pure Pwnage said, at least they care. They don't drop games. They have had D3 and SC2 in development for quite a while, and they're still releasing bug-fixes and balance patches.


It looks like the proof you have is pretty proof-shaped.

Your terminology amuses me.

EDIT: Enigma is broken in the way Wizards are broken. It doesn't break the game, but it's so powerful most other things are horrible in comparison.

As for gamebreaking, Farcast.

Dixieboy
2009-09-06, 06:37 PM
Enigma and Mutalisks laugh at your claim. No WoW experience, but I've heard silly things about Shaman and Ret Pallys.
.

Wrong definition of broken, I meant bugged code etc.

sofawall
2009-09-06, 07:01 PM
Wrong definition of broken, I meant bugged code etc.

Farcast? Muta-stack?

Quite a few spots in TES games, actually.

Eldariel
2009-09-06, 07:14 PM
Farcast? Muta-stack?

Quite a few spots in TES games, actually.

Try SCV stack for a Starcraft example. Or any of the sentillion game-crashing bugs used by hackers to create various annoyances for the game.

sofawall
2009-09-06, 07:50 PM
I hate forced disconnects... Happens on CS to me quite a bit.

Eldariel
2009-09-06, 07:57 PM
I hate forced disconnects... Happens on CS to me quite a bit.

Btw, is this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVnPZqBGT40) what you mean by Mutastack? 'cause it ain't a bug :smalltongue:

Doc Roc
2009-09-06, 08:43 PM
Due to Pharoah's Fist's Avatar: I keep thinking he says Card games after his post (due to Yu-Gi-oh Adbridged).


Did you make that up?

I believe so. It's hard to say. :)

sofawall
2009-09-06, 08:53 PM
Btw, is this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVnPZqBGT40) what you mean by Mutastack? 'cause it ain't a bug :smalltongue:

Totally a bug. Wasn't meant to happen.

Well, maybe not a bug, but a mechanics exploit.

Hilariously, in SC2, they're working to bring it back as a feature. :P

Eldariel
2009-09-06, 08:59 PM
Totally a bug. Wasn't meant to happen.

Well, maybe not a bug, but a mechanics exploit.

Hilariously, in SC2, they're working to bring it back as a feature. :P

Well, maybe they didn't exactly plan on it, but they didn't fix it either! And the game is certainly more skill-rewarding as a consequence. Therefore it's not a bug, it's a feature. :smalltongue:

I certainly have gotten my air micro on a whole new level thanks to stacking different types of air (Wraiths + Sieged Tank!). To speak nothing of Dropships dropping while moving; that stuff is awesome. But yeah, in WC3, they specifically avoided this. Frowntown.

sofawall
2009-09-06, 09:08 PM
Well, maybe they didn't exactly plan on it, but they didn't fix it either! And the game is certainly more skill-rewarding as a consequence. Therefore it's not a bug, it's a feature. :smalltongue:

I certainly have gotten my air micro on a whole new level thanks to stacking different types of air (Wraiths + Sieged Tank!). To speak nothing of Dropships dropping while moving; that stuff is awesome. But yeah, in WC3, they specifically avoided this. Frowntown.

Heh. Gotta love the Starcraft.

Blizzard tends to recognize what people love, and what will/will not wreck things. Stacking does not wreck the game. Therefore, it is kept.

I agree about it being awesome, but I stand by my point of it being a bug in SC1, a feature in SC2 :P

(Also, the definition of fun is playing against a weak player and just making 400 zerglings, then watching their face when they scout with an air unit. 400 'lings vs. 20 marines and 5 medics (yes this has happened). Oh, the hilarity.)

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-06, 09:20 PM
...

So, those druids, huh? I hear they're kinda broken. I mean, with Bear-form, he can out-fight the WarriorFighter, and in Cat-form, he can out-assassin the Rogue...

Eldariel
2009-09-06, 09:23 PM
It's not a bug unless the company admits that :smalltongue: That's why Microsoft's products just contain really weird features until they're patched (and well, afterwards too).


Oh, the hilarity.

You mean, "Oh, the humanity!" 'cause at that point, you really feel sorry for the humanity. Though stories of the opposite are even more awesome. Ever seen a single Firebat kill 50 Lings? Like here (http://www.sclegacy.com/features/pp/pp03/replays/pp03%20-%20nada_bbq.rep) (oh, that's a 1.10 rep, methinks so you need a reverse patcher)!


EDIT: We're busy derailing this thread. Stop intervening. Resistance is futile.
EDIT#2: Btw, saying "Resistance is futile" is pretty stupid, 'cause whenever it is said anywhere, you'll know the resistance is gonna be plenty efficient.

Doc Roc
2009-09-06, 09:29 PM
Actually, these things aren't totally off topic.

Certainly, the dr00d was never intended to behave this way. The question is:

Is it bad?

ashmanonar
2009-09-06, 10:34 PM
I forgot the fighter's advantage of more hp, skill points and full BAB :smallsmile:

- Giacomo

Skill...points...? I don't recall that being a fighter class feature. Maybe you're thinking of some other class?

Eldariel
2009-09-06, 10:36 PM
Actually, these things aren't totally off topic.

Certainly, the dr00d was never intended to behave this way. The question is:

Is it bad?

Hm. It's slightly problematic if it takes the jobs of the classes that are intended to behave this way. Of course, the simple solution is empowering the classes intended to behave this way a bit. But yeah, I'd say it's problematic if it steals someone's job.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-06, 10:41 PM
Well since we are talking about WoW:

Feral Druid: DPS, less than Main DPS class, Tanks less well than Warrior.

So having a well built Feral Druid in your guild means that you need fewer people, not that you do anything better.

This leaves aside the other things like situations in which a Feral Tank is better than a Warrior (rare, mitigation > HP). But it's there.

Course, in Arenas things get different.

Also, all this is burning crusade, the only word I've heard about WoLK is that basically it's Marvel vs Capcom II. Everything is so broken that no one actually knows what is broken.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-06, 10:41 PM
What was the Druid's intended role? Cleric was a healbot, wizard was a blaster, druid...?

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-06, 10:54 PM
What was the Druid's intended role? Cleric was a healbot, wizard was a blaster, druid...?

According to the actual mechanics involved in the class, that would be tank, blaster, battlefield control, summoner, buffer, item creationist, crowd control, and general disorganized mayhem. All at the same time.

nightwyrm
2009-09-06, 11:01 PM
What was the Druid's intended role? Cleric was a healbot, wizard was a blaster, druid...?

It was suppose to be the ultra secret super class, but WotC forgot to include the cheat code.

chiasaur11
2009-09-06, 11:13 PM
What was the Druid's intended role? Cleric was a healbot, wizard was a blaster, druid...?

Was something for the DM to give his girlfriend.

Doc Roc
2009-09-06, 11:19 PM
Was something for the DM to give his girlfriend.

:: laughing :: My SO plays druids exclusively.

Andras
2009-09-06, 11:52 PM
Was something for the DM to give his girlfriend.

This is pretty much the case most of the times I've seen one played, but it helps that I don't play with many powergamers.

Sir Giacomo
2009-09-07, 01:04 AM
sigh

3 comments for now:

1. I greatly respect your gaming experience, but I think it is based on almost never playing a core setting (with items for non-casters as per wbl and all). Yet you base your notion that the core game is broken on all these optional rule or houserule environments.

2. A tell-tale sign of this imo is that you really, I mean REALLY believe that an animal companion is superior to a fighter. You want a playtest? Ok, here it is:
Fighter drinks potion of hide from animals (or UMDs a wand of this spell). Fighter wins.

3. I never said that wildshape us broken. I only maintain that wildshape is equivalent to polymorph and that either you call both broken and ban them or you do not. Hence, a wildshaping Druid should be compared to a fighter with access to polymorph. Please, when you quote what I said to draw conclusions that based on such a quote everything I say must be wrong try to remain fair :)

- Giacomo

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-07, 01:16 AM
sigh

3 comments for now:

1. I greatly respect your gaming experience, but I think it is based on almost never playing a core setting (with items for non-casters as per wbl and all). Yet you base your notion that the core game is broken on all these optional rule or houserule environments.

Core was broken from the get go, Giacomo. You seriously think the Wizard, Druid, and Cleric are perfectly balanced inside Core? The best spells in the game (you know, the actual Game Breakers?) are Core. Time Stop, Shapechange (the MM is Core, believe it or not), Gate, this is just the tip of the iceberg (granted, the very peak of power, but these are three major offenders).


2. A tell-tale sign of this imo is that you really, I mean REALLY believe that an animal companion is superior to a fighter. You want a playtest? Ok, here it is:
Fighter drinks potion of hide from animals (or UMDs a wand of this spell). Fighter wins.

....How does that help against a Great Wyrm?


3. I never said that wildshape us broken. I only maintain that wildshape is equivalent to polymorph and that either you call both broken and ban them or you do not. Hence, a wildshaping Druid should be compared to a fighter with access to polymorph. Please, when you quote what I said to draw conclusions that based on such a quote everything I say must be wrong try to remain fair :)

Oh sure, a Fighter with access to Polymorph is completely on-par with a Druid. Never mind the fact that the Druid also has:


Other magic items that do things, several of which the Fighter cannot use (Rod of Quicken Spell, for example).
9th level spellcasting abilities, along with a minimum of 50 spells/day.
The ability to turn into things Polymorph cannot, such as plants or Elementals, or Huge sized- creatures.
An Animal Companion, essentially an ever-loyal meatshield who will never need a Rez spell. EVER.
4+Int modifier skills.
The ability to completely neglect their Str and Dex scores from level 9 onward (level 5 if they avoid ever getting into melee, and level 1 if they are really effing smart).


You mean to tell me a Core Fighter using a Wand of Polymorph is on par with all of that?

Asheram
2009-09-07, 01:20 AM
sigh
2. A tell-tale sign of this imo is that you really, I mean REALLY believe that an animal companion is superior to a fighter. You want a playtest? Ok, here it is:
Fighter drinks potion of hide from animals (or UMDs a wand of this spell). Fighter wins.

3. I never said that wildshape us broken. I only maintain that wildshape is equivalent to polymorph and that either you call both broken and ban them or you do not. Hence, a wildshaping Druid should be compared to a fighter with access to polymorph. Please, when you quote what I said to draw conclusions that based on such a quote everything I say must be wrong try to remain fair :)

- Giacomo

2."If a warded character touches an animal or attacks any creature, even with a spell, the spell ends for all recipients."
Not kosher. It's just a free attack if you're lucky and the animal doesn't bump into you. You can do better than that.

3. Polymorph works 1min per level. Wildshape works 1h per druid level. You seriously can't compare the two.
Beside. For a fighter to use a wand of polymorph with a DC of 20... Let's put 10 ranks in it for it to get to a 50-50 chance that it'll work.
That's either 20 skillpoints (or 10 with able learner) and level 17.
And then you'd better not make charisma your dumpstat or it'll have to be higher.

So accordning to your logic of "Fighter drinks potion of hide from animals (or UMDs a wand of this spell). Fighter wins."
"Fighter uses UMD (50% chance of failiure at best) Polymorph wand to turn into whatever. Druid dispels and Wildshapes while sending the AC at the fighter. Fighter attempts to use UMD again (Probably fails). Druid uses summon natures ally to flank the Fighter (Summon attacks Fighter in the rear, AC Attacks in the front)." Do I need to continue?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-07, 07:40 AM
2. A tell-tale sign of this imo is that you really, I mean REALLY believe that an animal companion is superior to a fighter. You want a playtest? Ok, here it is:
Fighter drinks potion of hide from animals (or UMDs a wand of this spell). Fighter wins.
Wizard casts Superior Invisibility. Wizard beats the Fighter!

Gem of True Seeing you say? Mindblank! Dispel Magic! Shatter! Wheee!!!

Bayar
2009-09-07, 07:48 AM
Dont try to reason with Giacomo. You will lose.

The Corinthian
2009-09-07, 08:09 AM
Now, personally I've never actually experienced the issues that make the druid overpowered (only one druid PC of any consequence in 6 years of playing, and while he was the strongest character in that party, he wasn't massively so), I can't deny that they exist.

I suggest all of the following to fix it:

-Change Wild Shape to PHB2 Shapeshifting
- Change spell progression to Bard progression, fiddle with the levels of certain iconic Druid spells (Like Control Weather) so it still gets them in a timely manner
- Change animal companion to the ranger version of that class feature, ban the Fleshraker (Which never existed anyway and is about as silly as the razor boar)

That should bring the druid in line.

Bayar
2009-09-07, 08:28 AM
Now, personally I've never actually experienced the issues that make the druid overpowered (only one druid PC of any consequence in 6 years of playing, and while he was the strongest character in that party, he wasn't massively so), I can't deny that they exist.

I suggest all of the following to fix it:

-Change Wild Shape to PHB2 Shapeshifting
- Change spell progression to Bard progression, fiddle with the levels of certain iconic Druid spells (Like Control Weather) so it still gets them in a timely manner
- Change animal companion to the ranger version of that class feature, ban the Fleshraker (Which never existed anyway and is about as silly as the razor boar)

That should bring the druid in line.

So you are suggesting we play rangers with shapechanging and marginally better spellcasting ?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-07, 09:46 AM
So you are suggesting we play rangers with shapechanging and marginally better spellcasting ?

There's a UA variant ranger like that...

quick_comment
2009-09-07, 09:54 AM
There's a UA variant ranger like that...

Seriously, thats what the druid should be. Just give wildshape and maybe 5th level spells to the ranger.

I dont see druids as raining death from the sky. In fantasy, they are usually wise forest-dwelling rangers, not full casters who can obliterate entire planes.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-07, 09:56 AM
Seriously, thats what the druid should be. Just give wildshape and maybe 5th level spells to the ranger.

I dont see druids as raining death from the sky. In fantasy, they are usually wise forest-dwelling rangers, not full casters who can obliterate entire planes.

Nature is not kind;
It treats all things impartially.
The Sage is not kind,
And treats all people impartially.

Yora
2009-09-07, 10:07 AM
Has anyone ever tried to make a psionic druid? Fluffed like a druid, but using power points.

The Corinthian
2009-09-07, 10:08 AM
I guess I am, if you put it that way. Although, 6th-level spells, full CL and a large spell list is hardly "marginally" better than ranger spellcasting.

Compared to a ranger, you'd lose:
Favored enemy
Evasion
Swift Tracker
Camouflage/Hide in plain sight
5 bonus feats (Track, Endurance and combat style)
good bab.
reflex good
2 skill points/level
some weapon proficiencies, proficiency with chain shirt armor

You'd gain:
Shapeshifting
Resist Nature's lure
Earlier Woodland Stride
Trackless Step
Poison Immunity
Disguise Self at will
Timeless Body
1 bonus feat (nature sense is like a +2/+2 feat.)
Much better spellcasting
will good
proficiency with non-metal medium armor (so can wear dragonhide or ironwood at higher levels.)

Seems fair to me?

Yora
2009-09-07, 10:16 AM
400 'lings vs. 20 marines and 5 medics (yes this has happened). Oh, the hilarity.)
400 lings against firebats: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNKg3avIku0

Diamondeye
2009-09-07, 11:10 AM
Here's an example druid I made: Andal Durrak (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=26623)

I am awaiting the fighter build for comparison.

How does the druid have 22 as his effective wisdom score when his base is 18 and he has a Periapt of Wisdom +2?

Anyhow, here's a fighter build I whipped up., also on a 32-point buy. Not so much to disprove that the fighter is at a disadvantage to the druid but just to get a comparison that's more than just people citing abilities here and there rather than the whole picture.

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=29746

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-07, 11:14 AM
Because typing is difficult.

Diamond, can you give me an average damage dealt for the fighter per hit, as well as his chances of hitting the AC who also has an armor class of 20?

With bow and sword, for comparison purposes.

Also, your iterative attack is missing.

Bayar
2009-09-07, 11:29 AM
How does the druid have 22 as his effective wisdom score when his base is 18 and he has a Periapt of Wisdom +2?

Anyhow, here's a fighter build I whipped up., also on a 32-point buy. Not so much to disprove that the fighter is at a disadvantage to the druid but just to get a comparison that's more than just people citing abilities here and there rather than the whole picture.

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=29746

Do you think a druid places his stat boosts at level 4 and 8 anywhere OTHER THAN WIS ???

Yukitsu
2009-09-07, 11:32 AM
Dont try to reason with Giacomo. You will lose.

Technically, you both lose. Just in completely tangential ways.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-07, 11:33 AM
Do you think a druid places his stat boosts at level 4 and 8 anywhere OTHER THAN WIS ???

Then his base should be 20, not 18. He started with an 18 at level one, but now he has a 20, natively.

Diamondeye
2009-09-07, 11:38 AM
Because typing is difficult.

Diamond, can you give me an average damage dealt for the fighter per hit, as well as his chances of hitting the AC who also has an armor class of 20?

With bow and sword, for comparison purposes.

Also, your iterative attack is missing.

I don't put iterative attacks on character sheets. It's just the base attack -5. I'll get back to you later with the average damage.

Also I forgot to put his amulet bonus in his AC, which should be 21.

Diamondeye
2009-09-07, 11:40 AM
Then his base should be 20, not 18. He started with an 18 at level one, but now he has a 20, natively.

What she said. If I see a base of 18, that should include any permenant increases as in from levelling up.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-07, 11:44 AM
What she said.

...

It's been a while, I'll tell you that much.



<- Right here.

Diamondeye
2009-09-07, 12:00 PM
Ok, vs AC 20:

Average damage for a regular old hit should be 16.5; chance to hit AC 20 would be 75% for the first attack (6 or higher) and 50% for the second attack (11 or higher).

Average damage per round then, without charging or using power attack, will be 20.625 before accounting for critical hits. Accounting for criticals makes it much more complex, but that should give an average of 24.75 (possibly a little bit less, since I may be a tad off on my calculations surrounding confirming crits)

With power attack of, say, +5. Power Attacking for +5 would give an average damage per hit of 26.5, or 36.5 on a charge.

This gives an average damage per round of 19.875, or, accounting for crits22.525. I haven't accounted for charging in average damage per round since a crit occuring on a charge with Power Attack and Leap Attack will have a significant effect on the average.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-07, 12:43 PM
with Power Attack and Leap Attack will have a significant effect on the average.

So your non Core Fighter is being compared to a Core AC?

Time to break out the Fleshraker.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-07, 12:52 PM
Going to assume these are directed at me:


1. I greatly respect your gaming experience, but I think it is based on almost never playing a core setting (with items for non-casters as per wbl and all). Yet you base your notion that the core game is broken on all these optional rule or houserule environments.

You should stop thinking things with no basis in fact. I have a great deal of experience in Core only, seeing as once upon a time, those were the only books I had, and also some deluded people think that supplemental material is less balanced.

My base notion that Core is unbalanced is based on my base experience in Core.


2. A tell-tale sign of this imo is that you really, I mean REALLY believe that an animal companion is superior to a fighter. You want a playtest? Ok, here it is:
Fighter drinks potion of hide from animals (or UMDs a wand of this spell). Fighter wins.

I really know that Animal Companions are better than Fighters. For starters because they come with all sort of features that Fighters cannot duplicate, and secondly because they do both those things and good melee combat for free, not stealing any treasure or XP from the rest of the party.

Now for your playtest: Oh look, my AC attacks the enemy while you wasted an action for no reason. This isn't a game of seeing how much WBL it take to make a Fighter win a duel with an AC. The answer should be zero since ACs don't use up any WBL. It isn't and that's your problem.

The AC performs it's function at infinity less cost to the party. We are ignoring the difference in cost and comparing their abilities against a series of encounters. So save that potion of Hide Animals for when you eventually get Dominated by the enemy and become even more of a detriment to the team.


3. I never said that wildshape us broken. I only maintain that wildshape is equivalent to polymorph and that either you call both broken and ban them or you do not. Hence, a wildshaping Druid should be compared to a fighter with access to polymorph. Please, when you quote what I said to draw conclusions that based on such a quote everything I say must be wrong try to remain fair

Polymorph isn't as good as Wildshape. We already covered this. How about you actually make a build that uses Polymorph, so we can all laugh at how much WBL you expend for so little gain, while the Druid gets it all free.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-07, 01:40 PM
Technically, you both lose. Just in completely tangential ways.

Technically, everyone who reads this post has just lost. The game.

Asheram
2009-09-07, 01:49 PM
Technically, everyone who reads this post has just lost. The game.


The "fighter is as good as a druid" argument is to good to walk away from.
It's like listening to someone saying that the sky is actually green and made of ham; You want to walk away, but you Really want to listen to the arguments.

Diamondeye
2009-09-07, 02:15 PM
...

It's been a while, I'll tell you that much.



<- Right here.

My bad, I just looked at the avatar.