Shapeshifting Questions.

[Kurien]

So I've been thinking about a character in my head for awhile now. He's called Kurien (just like my username), and one of his abilities is shapeshifting into two somewhat fixed animal forms: a wolf, and an eagle. This presents several choices and problems.


Where does the extra mass go when Kurien shifts into an eagle say, 8 pounds in weight? The TV Tropes article Shapeshifter Baggage is about this phenomenon. Although Kurien is from a developing personal fantasy setting, I'm looking for a more satisfying justification than a wizard did it. Currently i like the Marvel explanation (the mass is shunted into an extradimensional pocket), but I wonder if there are other ways.
I'm not considering Kurien assuming a form much greater in mass than his default human form. His wolf form is probably the same mass as his human form.
Where do Kurien's clothes go after changing form? Do they disappear and return when he changes back to human form? Or are they shed, and he is naked upon reassuming human form? (This would be more awesome if he was an attractive female.
Does Kurien obtain all the skills and instincts of his animal forms or do they have to be learned? Example: Can he fly the first time he becomes a bird?


I would like to read some of your opinions on how shapeshifting is handled. I may not reply much- I'm content to just read any posts. Thank you if you decide to reply. :smallsmile:

[thubby]

Where do Kurien's clothes go after changing form? Do they disappear and return when he changes back to human form? Or are they shed, and he is naked upon reassuming human form? (This would be more awesome if he was an attractive female.
depends, magic ones usually can. other shapeshifters tend to be able to transform their outward appearance to look like they're clothed.


Does Kurien obtain all the skills and instincts of his animal forms or do they have to be learned? Example: Can he fly the first time he becomes a bird?

depends on how he shifts, mystical transformations tend to confer some nature of the animal, magic-as-science ones, or something as part of an alien usually don't.

[MethosH]

You could say that the atoms of his transformed forms are a lot more unstable than his human form, because they are closer together and this make he looks smaller but still have the same mass.

Maybe his clothes aren't really clothes... Maybe they are a part of his body, and when he turns human he actually turns into a human-with-clothes.

I would go with.. He needs to learn... He is only changing his shape by reconfiguring his molecules, not his DNA, nor the vital connections on his brain.

[Coidzor]

Depends on what form of shapeshifting it is.

If it's magical, then, well, obviously the spell can do as it pleases as long as the magic system doesn't rule sommat out.

If it's actually a "naturalistic" phenomenon, then it gets more tricksy and in the realms of matter manipulation biotech or using "another dimension" or "dimensional hole" or "extradimensional storage space" (hammer space, essentially) as your phlebotinum to explain it. Which is a step towards the mystical mumbajumba.

Or like one of the above said with matter compression and not actually changing mass, just rearranging it and compacting it in certain places beyond what would be expected. Which might add in certain constraints about how far the matter can be compacted/stretched.

[Crimmy]

So I've been thinking about a character in my head for awhile now. He's called Kurien (just like my username), and one of his abilities is shapeshifting into two somewhat fixed animal forms: a wolf, and an eagle. This presents several choices and problems.


Where does the extra mass go when Kurien shifts into an eagle say, 8 pounds in weight? The TV Tropes article Shapeshifter Baggage is about this phenomenon. Although Kurien is from a developing personal fantasy setting, I'm looking for a more satisfying justification than a wizard did it. Currently i like the Marvel explanation (the mass is shunted into an extradimensional pocket), but I wonder if there are other ways.
I'm not considering Kurien assuming a form much greater in mass than his default human form. His wolf form is probably the same mass as his human form.
Where do Kurien's clothes go after changing form? Do they disappear and return when he changes back to human form? Or are they shed, and he is naked upon reassuming human form? (This would be more awesome if he was an attractive female.
Does Kurien obtain all the skills and instincts of his animal forms or do they have to be learned? Example: Can he fly the first time he becomes a bird?


I would like to read some of your opinions on how shapeshifting is handled. I may not reply much- I'm content to just read any posts. Thank you if you decide to reply. :smallsmile:

I recommend you start reading "Blank it".

[chiasaur11]

Pocket dimension's always a good place to put excess mass.

Old Sci Fi standby.

[MethosH]

Which might add in certain constraints about how far the matter can be compacted/stretched.

Well.. Since the big bang and the center of black holes are consider places of (almost) infinite density I don't think there is a limit to how far matter can be compacted... Maybe there is a limit to the force pf character shape shifting that acts upon his own matter.

[Coidzor]

Hmm. maybe there're structures/organs specifically for acting as molecular ballast then....

[MethosH]

Hmm. maybe there're structures/organs specifically for acting as molecular ballast then....

Or maybe he don't have any inter organ. He is entirely based on atom interaction. We he eats something the food is instantly decomposed into atoms and join the rest of the body. The energy transmission between atoms keep him alive.

[Talwar]

If the magic allows the organism to survive a transformation between different body types, rather than suffer immediate death from shock, stroke, and/or heart attack, then I'd say the magic also accounts for conservation of mass in some way that only a few grizzled wizards know.

I'd suggest that if he's wearing clothes at the time of shifting, they're unaffected and still on the new form when he's done. This could be a nuisance or a hazard depending on the circumstances. Practically speaking, he'd be better off disrobing before shifting. Probably means he's learned to be a bit careful about where and when he does his shifting and what he usually wears.

I think there's two ways to go about the skills/instinct question:

1) His human mind, skills, and instincts carry over into the new form, so he has to learn to operate the new bodies from zero.

2) His mind, skills, and instincts are unique in each form. Problems here - would he know anything about shifting in his animal forms? Would his memories carry over? Would he have to be "socialized" by his friends/family in his animal forms?

I'd go with the latter - human brains are not the same as wolf or eagle brains. You might also find it interesting to essentially play three characters in one.

[Anuan]

Read the Animorph series. It helps here.
As far as mass goes; pocket dimension or whatever is fine.
Clothes; I always liked the Animorph way of being able to morph very tight clothes, or if you've got great talent, any clothes.
They also deal with the skills thing; there's base animal instincts in the back of your mind. You tap that for how to act. The bird knows how to fly. The wolf knows how to track via scent.

[thubby]

you could invoke mass-energy equivalence for where the extra mass goes. it's easier to handwaves where something as flexible as energy goes as opposed to however many pounds of flesh.

[SurlySeraph]

One approach I like is that he keeps all the mass. Small forms he shifts into are very dense, which can be both an asset and a problem; having a 150-pound marble fall on you is going to be a lot of force that you won't be prepared for. Being able to fly or swim while carrying all the extra weight around should be handwaved by saying that the extra muscle density compensates.

[MethosH]

One approach I like is that he keeps all the mass. Small forms he shifts into are very dense, which can be both an asset and a problem; having a 150-pound marble fall on you is going to be a lot of force that you won't be prepared for. Being able to fly or swim while carrying all the extra weight around should be handwaved by saying that the extra muscle density compensates.

Oh well.. there goes my idea of compressed mass... It would be pretty hard for a small bird to fly like that. :smallfrown:

[V'icternus]

Read the Animorph series. It helps here.
As far as mass goes; pocket dimension or whatever is fine.
Clothes; I always liked the Animorph way of being able to morph very tight clothes, or if you've got great talent, any clothes.
They also deal with the skills thing; there's base animal instincts in the back of your mind. You tap that for how to act. The bird knows how to fly. The wolf knows how to track via scent.

I was totally gonna suggest Animorphs! (I was a huge fan of the books...)

Great, now you stole my idea, I have nothing to say...

...

...

Animorph's rules!

[The Dark Fiddler]

Where do Kurien's clothes go after changing form? Do they disappear and return when he changes back to human form? Or are they shed, and he is naked upon reassuming human form? (This would be more awesome if he was an attractive female.

I rather like what Animorphs did with the clothing deal; tight fitting clothing morphs with them, but anything beyond that falls off if they morphs smaller or shreds if they morph bigger.

Edit: Wow, I skip reading the middle posts, and now I learn I've been ninja'd.

Oh well, I second following the Animorphs approach for clothes.

[Mr. Mud]

Well, maybe the human DNA, fuses with itself, or other magically properties in the blood of Kurien (or maybe even his clothes...), to make "Raven DNA" or something of the like? It'd account for the mass, clothes, and science behind how the shape shifting happened.

Or, since this is the whole, you know, fantasy setting, why would people have to wear clothes! :smalltongue:... But seriously, why use the complex system of molecules and atoms, we use in real life? You could always make you're own, more simplistic system that could be built around where the mass goes, where the clothes go, and how he (or she...? :smallconfused:) changes into beasts.

He should be able to flutter his wings, or maybe imitate how he thinks one would go about flying, but maybe he isn't all that good at it yet? He could be a clumsy flier, but get progressively better.

[Kaelaroth]

When he becomes smaller, excess mass turns to air. When he reforms, surrounding air turns into mass. Which is an issue if he's in a small room - but there's a minor thing for said character to overcome!

[Prime32]

Maybe he gains the shapeshifting ability by making a "contract" with some weird monolith, and the monolith stores his extra mass for him.

[13_CBS]

I think the answer lies in how "hard" (on the Scale of Sci-Fi Hardness, though this isn't sci-fi) you want your character's flavor to be. You mentioned that you don't want "wizards did it", but how "realistic" do you want your magical shape-shifting to be?




Where does the extra mass go when Kurien shifts into an eagle say, 8 pounds in weight? The TV Tropes article Shapeshifter Baggage is about this phenomenon. Although Kurien is from a developing personal fantasy setting, I'm looking for a more satisfying justification than a wizard did it. Currently i like the Marvel explanation (the mass is shunted into an extradimensional pocket), but I wonder if there are other ways.
I'm not considering Kurien assuming a form much greater in mass than his default human form. His wolf form is probably the same mass as his human form.


You could use the baggage from transforming as a plot device if you make it particularly noticeable. For example, Kurien transforms into an eagle--some of his body's mass is magically reconfigured into hollow, smaller bones, teeth become beaks, hair becomes feathers, etc, and any excess mass is expelled or otherwise deposited nearby as a lumpy mass of flesh, bones, fat, organs, etc, and Kurien can't safely shapeshift back into his normal human form without reabsorbing the mass that he shed. Of course, since this sort of transformation leaves behind quite a bit of evidence, and since it makes Kurien vulnerable, this may or may not work for you. But it's an idea.



Where do Kurien's clothes go after changing form? Do they disappear and return when he changes back to human form? Or are they shed, and he is naked upon reassuming human form? (This would be more awesome if he was an attractive female.

Does Kurien obtain all the skills and instincts of his animal forms or do they have to be learned? Example: Can he fly the first time he becomes a bird?


The rest is entirely up to you. Which do you prefer? Which fits better into the setting and Kurien?

[daggaz]

When he becomes smaller, excess mass turns to air. When he reforms, surrounding air turns into mass. Which is an issue if he's in a small room - but there's a minor thing for said character to overcome!

So he turns into a bird with a resounding fart?? :smallamused:

[Khanderas]

I would suggest a squicky option then. :smallbiggrin:
Human/wolf -> bird means dropping all mass behind except for the birds.
In effect, the shapeshifter would "blobifly" (skeleton and other interior dissolves making the creature fall into itself) into a fleshlike cocoon and hatch a hawk from the residual mound of flesh.

Then to shapeshift back up in size, a requisite amount of dead flesh needs to be in physical contact with the hawk, at wich point he can reabsorb the mass and "build" himself either the wolf or humanoid body. His own left behind corpse would be best (see previous paragraph) as it has just the right amount of mass, but a small mound of gophers and rats or a humanoid corpse would also do if the old body is inavailable.

There we go, shapeshifting with mass intact. (technically you can get most of the mass from the air (carbon) so as long as your smaller body still contains the neccecary nutrients, consider a tree for example. Most of its mass is taken from the air, or it would make a big hole in the ground where it grows.
But that solution is not as fun. Heck it can be a quest to get enough flesh / old body back in order to get back from being a bird)

[Kurien]

Thanks for all the posts guys.

Of all of the suggestions so far about mass, Prime32 seems the most workable. Except I think the contract he makes is with a godlike being instead.
FYI: I first got the idea of transformation into a wolf from Twilight Princess. Except I also wanted my character to have the versatility of a flying form, hence the eagle. Raptors are awesome. Apex predators and all that.
In Twilight Princess, Link's equipment seemed to disappear into hammerspace whenever he was in wolf form and reappear when he changed back. I believe I've worked out some kind of functional magic that can explain this on my character.

The Shifter's Collar
A collar that features eight tiny silken pouches that act like small bags of holding, each with a different magic symbol embroidered on the outside. Kurien can mark a corresponding symbol on any eight items with a special ink thjat only comes off with a magic eraser. Upon speaking a command word, each marked item is recalled inside the appropriate pouch with the same symbol.
Items Kurien has marked:

Suit of clothing/armour
Bow
Quiver of arrows
Knife

And he can mark any other four items of his choosing, but these four are essential. The Collar is one size fits all, and fits snugly enough to not fall off easily.
The Collar seems overly complicated for some reason. :smalltongue:
__________________________________________________ ____________

What allows Kurien to Shapeshift? I've thought of two reasons:

Kurien obtained DNA from a wolf and eagle using some ritual and combined it with his own DNA. It is used as blueprints to constructing alternate forms.
Kurien spent years studying the anatomy of the wolf and eagle. Involved disecting numerous animals to have a look a their internal biology so he wouldn't screw up when he tried to shift.

Personally I like the first one more.

What are your thoughts?

[KuReshtin]

When I saw this thread I immediately thought of the "Chronicles of the Cheysuli" by Jennifer Roberson.
There's actually a passage in one of the earlier books that describe what happens with the excess mass and clothes and equipment when the Cheysuli shift into their animal forms.

I can't remember word by word at the moment, but I seem to recall that since the shapeshift is a power granted by the Earth, the excess mass and equipment gets 'held' by the Earth until the Cheysuli shift back into their human form.

They also gain their shapeshift ability by bnding with a 'familiar' that then follows them around until they die. The bond between familiar and Cheysuli is so strong that if the familiar gets killed, the Chaysuli goes mad with grief, and basically has nothing left to live for.

All in all, I like the "Chronicles of the Cheysuli".

[Gullara]

Read the Animorph series. It helps here.
As far as mass goes; pocket dimension or whatever is fine.
Clothes; I always liked the Animorph way of being able to morph very tight clothes, or if you've got great talent, any clothes.
They also deal with the skills thing; there's base animal instincts in the back of your mind. You tap that for how to act. The bird knows how to fly. The wolf knows how to track via scent.

The problem with the animal instincts in the back of you mind in that in the Animorph books they are absorbing the animal's DNA and that is where the instincts come from. In this case that is not possible.

My suggestion is that if his shapeshifting ability is natural that he be born with the instincts of the animals he can turn into. As for the rest of your problems I've got nothing.

[Trobby]

Honestly? This all depends on the method by which the shapeshifter's body is transformed.

Or in other words, up to interpretation by you, or whoever runs the world that you design.

Traditionally, my stance on the "weight" issue is that the shape change is occurring at a rapid subatomic level, restructuring the atoms of your body to create a form that is of a different size and weight, shunting off harmless particle radiation as excess matter, and converting tiny portions of subatomic matter into matter for larger transformations, and if you ever happen to require a transformation in space, saying that "empty space" isn't empty at all, and that all of space contains invisible subatomic particles that can provide matter for your transformation when needed.

Clothing and animal instinct is a bit more touchy...I would have clothing shunted into the body and then reformed upon post-transformation, citing that the matter around you can be transformed if necessary, but that doing so with another living being could be fatal. Or simply say that "No, it doesn't", and you would then have to deal with re-dressing oneself after every transformation.

As for instinct, well...I imagine that being a bird the first time you wouldn't know how to fly, so any shapeshifter would have to spend time as a bird learning how to use their own wings before taking flight. That simple. They might be able to do something as simple as glide a short distance, but that would be it.