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View Full Version : [3.5] Why does the swordsage maneuver recovery method suck?



Myou
2009-09-05, 10:45 AM
It takes a full round action to recover just one maneuver, why? It seems completely useless.
The Warblade only has to make a standard attack to recover all of them.

Boci
2009-09-05, 10:48 AM
It takes a full round action to recover just one maneuver, why? It seems completely useless.
The Warblade only has to make a standard attack to recover all of them.

They have alot more manouvers readied. It was built with the assumption that if you need to reacover a manouver mid battle, you're desperate already. Would it overpower them to change it? No not really. Maybe allow them to recover all manouvers as a full round action.

tyckspoon
2009-09-05, 10:53 AM
^what he said. With a Swordsage, you should normally not need to recover maneuvers mid-battle. If you do, that's what the Adaptive Style feat is for- not only does it let you recover all of your maneuvers as a full-round action, it lets you change your maneuvers readied. It's normally recommended for Swordsages.

Eldariel
2009-09-05, 10:53 AM
They all pick up Adaptive Style for efficient recovery anyways. But yeah, SS's idea is to use a large variety of maneuvers due to their insane Maneuvers Known and Maneuvers Readied numbers. But yah, Adaptive Style fixes their recovery; if anything, give it to them as a ~level 5 bonus feat.

Myou
2009-09-05, 10:54 AM
They have alot more manouvers readied. It was built with the assumption that if you need to reacover a manouver mid battle, you're desperate already. Would it overpower them to change it? No not really. Maybe allow them to recover all manouvers as a full round action.

Ah, I didn't think to compare the numbers.


^what he said. With a Swordsage, you should normally not need to recover maneuvers mid-battle. If you do, that's what the Adaptive Style feat is for- not only does it let you recover all of your maneuvers as a full-round action, it lets you change your maneuvers readied. It's normally recommended for Swordsages.


They all pick up Adaptive Style for efficient recovery anyways. But yeah, SS's idea is to use a large variety of maneuvers due to their insane Maneuvers Known and Maneuvers Readied numbers. But yah, Adaptive Style fixes their recovery; if anything, give it to them as a ~level 5 bonus feat.

Aha, I see! Well then I'll just tell my player to take Adaptive Style! :smallsmile:

Thanks guys!

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-09-05, 12:40 PM
Honestly? It's probably because ToB was a test run for 4e. You have the guy who can refresh encounter powers at will, the guy whose encounter powers come back randomly, and the guy who can theoretically refresh one encounter power at a time, but who's really better off not doing it. The devs decided to take this one step further to "You really shouldn't recover maneuvers, so we'll just not let you" and the rest is history. If ToB were an early-3e, stand-alone book, I highly doubt the maneuver recovery mechanisms would have turned out the way they did.

quick_comment
2009-09-05, 12:49 PM
Swordsages can recover maneuvers one at a time?

I did not know that.

FMArthur
2009-09-05, 12:52 PM
Adaptive Style just changes your readied maneuvers. It doesn't refresh expended ones. You can use it to turn some of your readied maneuvers into some of the ones you've already expended for a similar effect to recovery, but it's not the same.

Eldariel
2009-09-05, 01:07 PM
Adaptive Style just changes your readied maneuvers. It doesn't refresh expended ones. You can use it to turn some of your readied maneuvers into some of the ones you've already expended for a similar effect to recovery, but it's not the same.

There are about 6000 custserv and FAQ answers on this. For example:

Q The Adaptive Style feat in Tome of Battle allows you to change your readied maneuvers as a full round action rather than spending five minutes to do so. Does this...

A) Allow a martial adept to regain and change all of their maneuvers with a single full round action

or

B) Allow them to change the maneuver that is readied in their unexpended "slots".

A Adaptive Style will actually let you perform option A) from your list. So as a full round action, you can choose a new set of readied maneuvers, and in doing so, reset all of your maneuvers. I hope that clears things up. Have fun and good gaming!


Q With the Adaptive Style feat, will it refresh all the maneuvers of a multiclassed martial adept (Swordsage/Warblade for example), or just one class's maneuvers?

A Yes, it refreshes all the maneuvers of all your classes.


From here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19860966/Tome_of_Battle_CustServ_Q38A_UPDATED_Aug_17).

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-05, 01:11 PM
There are about 6000 custserv and FAQ answers on this. For example:

Q The Adaptive Style feat in Tome of Battle allows you to change your readied maneuvers as a full round action rather than spending five minutes to do so. Does this...

A) Allow a martial adept to regain and change all of their maneuvers with a single full round action

or

B) Allow them to change the maneuver that is readied in their unexpended "slots".

A Adaptive Style will actually let you perform option A) from your list. So as a full round action, you can choose a new set of readied maneuvers, and in doing so, reset all of your maneuvers. I hope that clears things up. Have fun and good gaming!


Q With the Adaptive Style feat, will it refresh all the maneuvers of a multiclassed martial adept (Swordsage/Warblade for example), or just one class's maneuvers?

A Yes, it refreshes all the maneuvers of all your classes.


From here (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19860966/Tome_of_Battle_CustServ_Q38A_UPDATED_Aug_17).Sig. Especially since the CustServ on ToB is remarkably poor quality.

Aneantir
2009-09-05, 01:32 PM
Adaptive Style just changes your readied maneuvers. It doesn't refresh expended ones. You can use it to turn some of your readied maneuvers into some of the ones you've already expended for a similar effect to recovery, but it's not the same.

Actually, I believe they asked the Sage about this once, and he said it refreshes your maneuvers because you're essentially readying them again.

FMArthur
2009-09-05, 02:24 PM
Okay. The sage is wrong.

wadledo
2009-09-05, 02:27 PM
Please provide facts for your arguments, then we might be inclined to think you right.

Boci
2009-09-05, 02:28 PM
Okay. The sage is wrong.

Not really. Its a bit unclear, your interpretation seems less likely then the sages.

FMArthur
2009-09-05, 02:57 PM
Interpretation? It says "you change your readied maneuvers at any time by taking a full-round action". There is no refresh or recovery mentioned there. Just a change. You can 'interpret' any additional clauses onto a sentence in your own mind. It doesn't change what's written.

Boci
2009-09-05, 03:01 PM
Interpretation? It says "you change your readied maneuvers at any time by taking a full-round action". There is no refresh or recovery mentioned there. Just a change. You can 'interpret' any additional clauses onto a sentence in your own mind. It doesn't change what's written.

Yes but the next sentence tells you that if your a crusader you gain new granted manouvers. That implies that the other classes gain similar benefits, such as recovering manouvers.

FMArthur
2009-09-05, 03:07 PM
Yes but the next sentence tells you that if your a crusader you gain new granted manouvers. That implies that the other classes gain similar benefits, such as recovering manouvers.

I don't see the implication. Crusaders have completely a different maneuver system and this exception is only to let them benefit from the feat at all.

Eldariel
2009-09-05, 03:11 PM
I don't see the implication. Crusaders have completely a different maneuver system and this exception is only to let them benefit from the feat at all.

It says you may change your readied maneuvers. That is, you take your maneuvers, lose all you've got right now and choose new ones readied. That this happens to entail them all becoming readied again as you're basically just making a new list in place of the old one. *Shrug* Doesn't feel farfetched to me.

shadow_archmagi
2009-09-05, 03:32 PM
It is hard to change one's ammo type without reloading.

Elfin
2009-09-05, 03:47 PM
Well said, Shadow.

FMArthur
2009-09-05, 04:38 PM
I'm glad to see so many that can only see what they want to see. Really, it's been enlightening, folks. Truly the swordsage must have been built entirely around this stupidly powerful version of Adaptive Style you've created based on assumptions of equivalency to similar actions.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-05, 04:40 PM
It's not "seeing what we want to see", it's asking a question (like so (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070719a)) and getting a response that makes sense.


Q: Dear Sage
If a character uses the Adaptive Style feat (Tome of Battle p28) after he has expended some of his readied maneuvers, does he choose new readied maneuvers equal to the maximum number he can ready, or equal to the number he hasn’t yet expended?
--Matt

A: Using the Adaptive Style feat completely resets the character’s readied maneuvers, making them all available for use.

If you’re a crusader, you also reset your granted maneuvers.

So it seems that the intent of the feat is to spend a full-round action to re-ready all of your maneuvers as if it were the start of the day. And at the start of the day, you have all your maneuvers available to you.

From a bookkeeping standpoint, it's also a pain in the neck to go through and figure out what's readied, what's not--and also very metagameable.

Boci
2009-09-05, 04:41 PM
I'm glad to see so many that can only see what they want to see. Really, it's been enlightening, folks. Truly the swordsage must have been built entirely around this stupidly powerful version of Adaptive Style you've created based on assumptions of equivalency to similar actions.

Stupidly powerful? Your wasting a full round action to do what the other classes do in much less time. Maybe your interpretation is right. I do not care, adaptive style is weak enough is you allow it to recover manouvers. What point is there of taking that if it doesn't?

Oh, and in the normal line, it states you have to take 5 minutes to do the same. Your basically saying that if you take 5 minutes to rearange your manouver, you do not regain any initiated ones.

Wings of Peace
2009-09-05, 04:45 PM
My opinion on all this is take it as you want. Personally I side with Arthur but given that the Sage has a history of disagreeing with itself, correcting itself later, then creating a time space paradox in some distant corner of the web it's really up to you and your dm if you wan't to take the Sage's word as the correct word or not.

Eldariel
2009-09-05, 05:10 PM
My opinion on all this is take it as you want. Personally I side with Arthur but given that the Sage has a history of disagreeing with itself, correcting itself later, then creating a time space paradox in some distant corner of the web it's really up to you and your dm if you wan't to take the Sage's word as the correct word or not.

Considering that both, CustServ and Char Ops agree with The Sage here and it makes the ability actually interesting powerlevel-wise, I'm inclined to actually agree with the Sage here.

Tiki Snakes
2009-09-05, 05:15 PM
Considering that both, CustServ and Char Ops agree with The Sage here and it makes the ability actually interesting powerlevel-wise, I'm inclined to actually agree with the Sage here.

It does seem like all the possible semi-official sources are singing from EXACTLY the same song-sheet. Pretty conclusive, I'd say, short of 'official' errata.

AslanCross
2009-09-05, 05:26 PM
It does seem like all the possible semi-official sources are singing from EXACTLY the same song-sheet. Pretty conclusive, I'd say, short of 'official' errata.


The official errata on ToB is sadly damaged and they never bothered to repair it. -_- Three sources agreeing is the best we can get, true.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-05, 05:31 PM
Considering they dropped the ball on the actual errata (something I will personally never let them live down), every little bit counts for ToB.

That said, I've suggested a fix for the Swordsage's recovery mechanic. Instead of the normal method, try this:

"A Swordsage recovers his maneuvers awkwardly in that the longer the encounter, the less he can recover. He may take a full round action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity to meditate quickly and refresh his mind, recovering a number of maneuvers equal to half the number he recovered on the last attempt (rounding up, in this way he can never run out of maneuvers).

If you have not recovered your maneuvers this encounter, or use the Adaptive Style feat to alter your maneuvers readied, the number of maneuvers you recover is equal to half the maximum number of Swordsage maneuvers you are able to ready, rounded up. You must select which maneuvers are recovered in this way, but you always have control over which ones are recovered and which ones remain expended. The number of maneuvers you can recover with this ability always resets at the beginning of a new encounter."

Still a full-round action, but it's a serious improvement that makes high-level Swordsage recovery playable.

Douglas
2009-09-05, 05:52 PM
Or just let them recover all maneuvers with a full round action. That's still quite a bit worse than either Warblade (swift action for all maneuvers and you can still attack - even with a standard action strike) or Crusader (all maneuvers with no action at all).

Seriously, they've got lower BAB despite being a primary melee combatant, a primary stat that doesn't affect attack bonus, and class features approximately on par with the other two classes. Compensating for their longer list of known and readied maneuvers with an inferior recovery mechanic is reasonable, but making it a full round action is quite enough. Reducing the amount recovered as well is overkill, and dropping it all the way down to one is just absurd.

quick_comment
2009-09-05, 06:02 PM
- even with a standard action strike


No, it specifically says that they cannot combine refreshing maneuvers with a strike

Myou
2009-09-05, 06:20 PM
Seriously, they've got lower BAB despite being a primary melee combatant, a primary stat that doesn't affect attack bonus, and class features approximately on par with the other two classes. Compensating for their longer list of known and readied maneuvers with an inferior recovery mechanic is reasonable, but making it a full round action is quite enough. Reducing the amount recovered as well is overkill, and dropping it all the way down to one is just absurd.

Darn right. :smallamused:


Can anyone tell me what was wrong with the ToB errata? I've never seen it.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-05, 06:24 PM
Darn right. :smallamused:


Can anyone tell me what was wrong with the ToB errata? I've never seen it.

About mid-sentence into the third part of the errata (never mind that they skipped the classes and feats entirely) they got the Copy-Pasta wrong and put Complete Mage's errata in the rest of the document.


Seriously, they've got lower BAB despite being a primary melee combatant, a primary stat that doesn't affect attack bonus, and class features approximately on par with the other two classes. Compensating for their longer list of known and readied maneuvers with an inferior recovery mechanic is reasonable, but making it a full round action is quite enough. Reducing the amount recovered as well is overkill, and dropping it all the way down to one is just absurd.

I think you are overlooking the fact that they have 6+Int skills, a great skill list, and they do get Wis to Attacks with Strikes from their primary discipline.

They also have two of the best styles in the game (Diamond Mind and Setting Sun), a style that allows them to act as the ultimate scout (Shadow Hand), Tiger Claw (the style with the highest damage output), and a few unusual tricks with their worst style (Desert Wind; it may suck by comparison but its still got some good toys).

Myou
2009-09-05, 06:26 PM
About mid-sentence into the third part of the errata (never mind that they skipped the classes and feats entirely) they got the Copy-Pasta wrong and put Complete Mage's errata in the rest of the document.

....

They didn't even proofread it?

Or re-release it?

Or just make it available online?

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-05, 06:28 PM
....

They didn't even proofread it?

Or re-release it?

Or just make it available online?

They never went back and fixed it. And they never will. I've emailed Cust Serv about it, and even asked for permission to take matters into my own hands. They said they have no obligation to fix it due to 3.5 being completely discontinued, and that I would need to abide by the 4E version of the OGL if I did try to errata it myself.

Myou
2009-09-05, 06:31 PM
They never went back and fixed it. And they never will. I've emailed Cust Serv about it, and even asked for permission to take matters into my own hands. They said they have no obligation to fix it due to 3.5 being completely discontinued, and that I would need to abide by the 4E version of the OGL if I did try to errata it myself.

Wow, I knew WotC were incompetent and lazy, but I'm amazed to see such utter disregard for their own customers. :smallannoyed:

Douglas
2009-09-05, 09:36 PM
I think you are overlooking the fact that they have 6+Int skills, a great skill list,
That's only two more than Crusader or Warblade, their skill list isn't that incredibly spectacular, and even changing "no class skills at all" to "all skills are in class" doesn't really mean that much to a combat focused class. Skills just aren't that important in combat, with the possible exception of Tumble - which is on the Warblade list too.


and they do get Wis to Attacks with Strikes from their primary discipline.
Only to damage, and only with one disciple until level 12. Even at high levels, getting it to two disciplines when they have six is no more than on par with the Warblade's situational bonuses from intelligence which includes, btw, damage in a usually easy to obtain circumstance - flanking.


They also have two of the best styles in the game (Diamond Mind and Setting Sun), a style that allows them to act as the ultimate scout (Shadow Hand), Tiger Claw (the style with the highest damage output), and a few unusual tricks with their worst style (Desert Wind; it may suck by comparison but its still got some good toys).
And Warblades and Crusaders get their own powerful maneuvers to match. Iron Heart and Devoted Spirit are two of the top tier disciplines, and they are exclusive to the Warblade and Crusader. White Raven isn't shabby either, and both Warblade and Crusader get it while Swordsage does not. And Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw are also available to the Warblade as well.

The selection of disciplines available to a Swordsage is about even with the other two classes. It is wider and includes some unique and useful stuff, but they still miss out on some very good maneuvers.

I am not overlooking anything here. I think you are neglecting to think about what Crusader and Warblade get instead and how it compares.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-05, 09:53 PM
That's only two more than Crusader or Warblade, their skill list isn't that incredibly spectacular, and even changing "no class skills at all" to "all skills are in class" doesn't really mean that much to a combat focused class. Skills just aren't that important in combat, with the possible exception of Tumble - which is on the Warblade list too.

Skills actually do matter in combat, and the Swordsage only needs to find a way to get Trapfinding and he's able to take up the party's Rogue's place.


Only to damage, and only with one disciple until level 12. Even at high levels, getting it to two disciplines when they have six is no more than on par with the Warblade's situational bonuses from intelligence which includes, btw, damage in a usually easy to obtain circumstance - flanking.

Oh, right. Oh well, a feat gets them Wis to attack rolls when using their Unarmed Strike (yay, more power to the Unarmed Swordsage). Granted, you have to be Good to use that feat, but oh well. And it works with Simple weapons too.


And Warblades and Crusaders get their own powerful maneuvers to match. Iron Heart and Devoted Spirit are two of the top tier disciplines, and they are exclusive to the Warblade and Crusader. White Raven isn't shabby either, and both Warblade and Crusader get it while Swordsage does not. And Diamond Mind and Tiger Claw are also available to the Warblade as well.

Setting Sun, Shadow Hand, and Desert Wind were supposed to make up for that overlap. Remember, there's only 9 base styles and 3 classes to divide them between. There's either going to be overlap or everyone gets 3 styles.


The selection of disciplines available to a Swordsage is about even with the other two classes. It is wider and includes some unique and useful stuff, but they still miss out on some very good maneuvers.

Agreed.


I am not overlooking anything here. I think you are neglecting to think about what Crusader and Warblade get instead and how it compares.

Do you know why the Swordsage is a Tier 3 class, a Tier that also includes the Warblade and Crusader?

Because they are good at what they do, even though they are slightly weaker than the Warblade and Crusader. You can chalk their lower stats up to WotC's incompetence with class design, but that doesn't change the fact that the class is a really good base (in spite of its flaws).

You may just be looking at the class like it were a Front Liner, like the Warblade and Crusader. There's a reason the Swordsage gets Desert Wind, Shadow Hand, and Setting Sun: They are the disciplines that focus on movement and strategy. It requires a little bit of tactical knowledge to play a Swordsage, but even something as simple as Hit and Run is enough to show why they are a good class.

Yes, they are slightly weaker than the Warblade or Crusader. No, they are not unplayable. If anything, they are akin to the Scout, a class that is considered on-par with the Rogue even back when the class was first printed. They are good at covering terrain, scouting, and tactical assaults. The Warblade and Crusader can have White Raven; that's more for ordering others around the battlefield. The Swordsage is able to put people where he wants them to be, and set up situations where the enemy has the low-ground, thanks to things like Setting Sun strikes and counters.

ghashxx
2009-10-30, 10:11 AM
Getting back to the whole adaptive style thing and what the Sage says, who is this sage guy and why is he semi-official?

Then on what I'm thinking. You've got your maneuvers readied for the day, but once you use a maneuver it's no longer readied. Like a spell, it's been spent and it's no longer readied. So a feat that allows you to change your readied maneuvers, that allows you to take your current readied maneuvers and change them to something else, should only change your readied maneuvers, not refresh your entire "spell list". I doubt this will change your minds since you've got these semi-pro guys saying otherwise, but I just wanted to put out the logic of why I'm interpreting it this way, and I have a feeling that FMArthur is thinking something along these lines.

ErrantX
2009-10-30, 10:34 AM
Well, the thing is, even when you use a readied maneuver it's still readied; it's just spent. You then recover it with whatever method you use and can use it again. Think of it like a card in Magic, when you tap it for an effect, it doesn't just go away, it's still there and you can use it again. Same goes for maneuvers.

Adaptive Style allows you to change your readied maneuvers. As Shadow pointed out, it's hard to change the ammo in your weapon without reloading it. If you change your readied maneuvers, then these new maneuvers/your new ammo comes up ready to use. You're not going to put spent shells into your shotgun and hope that they magically fill with powder and shot, are you?

-X

Myou
2009-10-30, 10:36 AM
Getting back to the whole adaptive style thing and what the Sage says, who is this sage guy and why is he semi-official?

Then on what I'm thinking. You've got your maneuvers readied for the day, but once you use a maneuver it's no longer readied. Like a spell, it's been spent and it's no longer readied. So a feat that allows you to change your readied maneuvers, that allows you to take your current readied maneuvers and change them to something else, should only change your readied maneuvers, not refresh your entire "spell list". I doubt this will change your minds since you've got these semi-pro guys saying otherwise, but I just wanted to put out the logic of why I'm interpreting it this way, and I have a feeling that FMArthur is thinking something along these lines.

Spent manuvers are still readied, readied just means chosen from the list of known manuvers. So your logic doesn't work. :smalltongue:

In any case, getting manuvers refreshed is hardly a bad thing.

Blackfang108
2009-10-30, 10:41 AM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't a Crusader's maneuvers auto-refresh? You use all of them and then they recycle?

Not...exactly. The autorefresh doesnt' depend on used maneuvers.
they auto-refresh whenever you can't be granted a maneuver.

Fishy
2009-10-30, 10:43 AM
You're not going to put spent shells into your shotgun and hope that they magically fill with powder and shot, are you?

No, but I might put a new disk in my laptop, and that won't recharge the batteries.

EDIT @V Not actually true (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2).
You can recover all expended maneuvers with a single swift action, which must be immediately followed in the same round with a melee attack or using a standard action to do nothing else in the round (such as executing a quick, harmless flourish with your weapon). You cannot initiate a maneuver or change your stance while you are recovering your expended maneuvers, but you can remain in a stance in which you began your turn.

Zovc
2009-10-30, 10:44 AM
The Warblade only has to make a standard attack to recover all of them.

The warblade cannot attack when recovering his maneuvers, he must perform a "flourish" as a standard (attack-equivalent) action. The book says he's just, like, twirling his sword around "intimidatingly."

Blackfang108
2009-10-30, 10:45 AM
No, but I might put a new disk in my laptop, and that won't recharge the batteries.

Yeah, but you wouldn't put a new disk in in order to recharge the batteries.

The gun example is more accurate. By a lot.

PhoenixRivers
2009-10-30, 10:47 AM
Also, Swordsage has the broadest number of schools to select from, by far.

Myou
2009-10-30, 10:49 AM
The warblade cannot attack when recovering his maneuvers, he must perform a "flourish" as a standard (attack-equivalent) action. The book says he's just, like, twirling his sword around "intimidatingly."

Wow, that's a pretty anal correction, considering I posted that months ago. :smalltongue:

Especially since you're completely wrong.

Read the book. It says he has to use a swift action to begin the recovery, then either make a standard attack or a pointless flourish.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-30, 10:50 AM
The warblade cannot attack when recovering his maneuvers, he must perform a "flourish" as a standard (attack-equivalent) action. The book says he's just, like, twirling his sword around "intimidatingly."

Or attack it says.

You can't use a "Strike" maneuver, but you can use an melee attack.
So you have two choices:
standard action=do nothing
or
Attack (standard attack)

jiriku
2009-10-30, 10:52 AM
The Sage is a dude who runs the Sage Advice column over at WotC. He's the D&D equivalent of a magazine advice columnist; people write into him with rules questions and he publicly answers in his column.

However, WotC has never said anything like "The Sage Is Our FAQ On Legs And The Incarnation Of Our Errata As He Saith So Shall It Be", so basically he's just providing expert advice from a WotC insider on how to interpret the rules.

Thing is, experts are usually right, but they sometimes disagree, and many hardcore enthusiasts of the hobby can also be considered experts in D&D rules, even though they don't draw a paycheck from WotC.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-30, 10:53 AM
The Sage is a dude who runs the Sage Advice column over at WotC. He's the D&D equivalent of a magazine advice columnist; people write into him with rules questions and he publicly answers in his column.

However, WotC has never said anything like "The Sage Is Our FAQ On Legs And The Incarnation Of Our Errata As He Saith So Shall It Be", so basically he's just providing expert advice from a WotC insider on how to interpret the rules.

Thing is, experts are usually right, but they sometimes disagree, and many hardcore enthusiasts of the hobby can also be considered experts in D&D rules, even though they don't draw a paycheck from WotC.

But when everyone at Wotc agrees when asked... that leads to it being pretty official.

Zovc
2009-10-30, 10:54 AM
Wow, that's a pretty anal correction, considering I posted that months ago. :smalltongue:

Especially since you're completely wrong.

Read the book. It says he has to use a swift action to begin the recovery, then either make a standard attack or a pointless flourish.

My bad. Sorry about that. I didn't mean to be so "anal."

Blackfang108
2009-10-30, 10:54 AM
But when everyone at Wotc agrees when asked... that leads to it being pretty official.

Official doesn't mean right. *Points to ToB errata page*

Myou
2009-10-30, 10:55 AM
But when everyone at Wotc agrees when asked... that leads to it being pretty official.

And in any case, RAW may be unclear, but RAI isn't. It's obviously just sloppy wording, otherwise it would say that manuvers aren't refreshed. And swordsages wouldn't have such restrictive recovery.


My bad. Sorry about that. I didn't mean to be so "anal."

I was just teasing. :smallwink:

I'm sorry if my word were a little harsh.

Shhalahr Windrider
2009-10-30, 11:11 AM
However, WotC has never said anything like "The Sage Is Our FAQ On Legs…"
Does that bit actually need to be said when one considers that the entire FAQ is assembled from "Sage Advice"?

jiriku
2009-10-30, 11:25 AM
Does that bit actually need to be said when one considers that the entire FAQ is assembled from "Sage Advice"?

Meh, I don't read his column anyhow. I'm too busy blowing up monsters and collectin' mah lootz. :smallbiggrin:

Blackfang108
2009-10-30, 11:40 AM
Does that bit actually need to be said when one considers that the entire FAQ is assembled from "Sage Advice"?

I've read that FAQ.

There's a lot of crap in there.

crazedloon
2009-10-30, 11:58 AM
Well as far as logic goes in this discussion I think one needs to look at what the feat replaces

As the text after Normal implies this replaces the normal method of readying maneuvers (which takes five minutes) thus you should flip in your book to the page that talks about readying maneuvers (pg 40 for those of you to lazy to find it) Here we can find some text which implies you get them right away.

first at the end of the first paragraph in Readying Maneuvers section we have the line "Only your readied maneuvers are available for immediate use." thus implying that once you ready them they are ready to go (i.e. unexpanded)

The last paragraph is what this feat replaces. And as it states "You can exchange your previously chosen set of readied maneuvers for a new set of readied maneuvers."

The last piece to this puzzle is the concept of "expended" maneuvers. This info can be found on pg 40 in the Recovering Expended Maneuvers section. Here is explicitly states the only way in the entire book of how a maneuver can be expended (ok that is a little bit of a lie there are some prestige class abilities which also can expend a maneuver but for this argument we can ignore those and once again those are specific actions)

So with these three pieces we know that the only way to get an expended maneuver is to initiate it, Any maneuver which is readied is immediately available, and you replace all previous maneuvers with a new set of readied maneuvers which are thus available immediately (baring the crusader which has the text which alters those availability to him).

AstralFire
2009-10-30, 12:09 PM
I can see where the people who say that it shouldn't recover expended maneuvers are coming from. In fact, that is how I read it... but with such broad WotC -and- homebrew agreement, I think the intent of the feat was to simply be a 'feat tax' for most optimal swordsages. But then, I never play very strict on RAW or RAI versus RAAwesome-but-Balanced.

Zeta Kai
2009-10-30, 12:30 PM
Okay. The sage is wrong.

The Sage is never "wrong". If you disagree with the Sage's ruling, then you are free to run your game however you like as a DM. But that's your game. The Sage clarifies RAW for the entire D&D community.


I've read that FAQ.

There's a lot of crap in there.

Yes, there is. Honestly, I was hoping for an official 3.6 book that included all the clarifications & errate from the FAQ. I'd've bought that book, & I wouldn't have been alone. The Rules Compendium is nice, but it only goes so far. And the Sage is as close to the Word of God as you're going to get from WotC.

Zaydos
2009-10-30, 12:47 PM
The Sage is never "wrong". If you disagree with the Sage's ruling, then you are free to run your game however you like as a DM. But that's your game. The Sage clarifies RAW for the entire D&D community.


I remember when I still got Dragon Magazine and the Sage Advice then was questionable. I would use it, I would cite it, but then they started having to put in print "I'm sorry I was completely wrong" and I kind of lost my faith in it. Not sure if it's still the same Sage but if it is (or a continuation of the same office) saying "The Sage is never "wrong"." is itself an incorrect statement.

Even experts can be wrong, they can forget a rule or misquote one.

Shhalahr Windrider
2009-10-30, 12:58 PM
I've read that FAQ.

There's a lot of crap in there.
Doesn't change the fact that Sage == FAQ.

Blackfang108
2009-10-30, 01:01 PM
Doesn't change the fact that Sage == FAQ.

I didn't say it did. There's a lot of self-contrtadictory curd within the FAQ, leaving my group to ignore the FAQ for all purposes but humor.

Shhalahr Windrider
2009-10-30, 01:20 PM
I didn't say it did.
Then why bring this up to me when all I'm saying is that, "Sage == FAQ"?I've long since given up commenting on the quality of the actual advice myself.

ghashxx
2009-10-30, 01:50 PM
@Crazedloon

Your logic piece there definitely won me over. Before your fully and patiently explained logical reasoning I was "we'll just agree to disagree". But definitely, since adaptive style replaces the normal method for recovering expended maneuvers then that means you're fully juiced and ready to go.

So going way back to the original question of why the swordsage re-juicing system sucks. A swordsage has a lot more options open with both more maneuvers readied at any one point in time, and sole access to Shadow Hand. To balance this, they make her need to spend a feat to be able to re-juice as quickly as the other classes.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-30, 01:55 PM
I remember when I still got Dragon Magazine and the Sage Advice then was questionable. I would use it, I would cite it, but then they started having to put in print "I'm sorry I was completely wrong" and I kind of lost my faith in it. Not sure if it's still the same Sage but if it is (or a continuation of the same office) saying "The Sage is never "wrong"." is itself an incorrect statement.

Even experts can be wrong, they can forget a rule or misquote one.

Isn't it good to admit when you are wrong... would it be better if he lied?

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-30, 02:00 PM
I remember when I still got Dragon Magazine and the Sage Advice then was questionable. I would use it, I would cite it, but then they started having to put in print "I'm sorry I was completely wrong" and I kind of lost my faith in it. Not sure if it's still the same Sage but if it is (or a continuation of the same office) saying "The Sage is never "wrong"." is itself an incorrect statement.

Even experts can be wrong, they can forget a rule or misquote one.


IIRC, there's two Sages. One quit for a while, the other took over, and then the original came back.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-10-30, 02:04 PM
Isn't it good to admit when you are wrong... would it be better if he lied?

Best

Being right
Being wrong and admitting it clearly
Saying nothing
Being wrong and admitting it unclearly
Being wrong and saying nothing
Being wrong and lying about it

Worst

Myou
2009-10-30, 02:10 PM
The sage isn't really relevant, as the isue has basically been decided.

ghashxx
2009-10-30, 02:11 PM
Since everyone here seems pretty nice I'm hoping you'll let me ask a stupid question. Since I'm new to all this I don't know what RAW and WotC stand for. "Roland St. Judes" page that refers people to acronym questions just takes me to the Forum page or I would have used that.

Fluffles
2009-10-30, 02:18 PM
Since everyone here seems pretty nice I'm hoping you'll let me ask a stupid question. Since I'm new to all this I don't know what RAW and WotC stand for. "Roland St. Judes" page that refers people to acronym questions just takes me to the Forum page or I would have used that.

Hold on, you are about to feel stupid.

WotC: We observe the Cats
RAW: Rapists are Wizards.

Feel better now?

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-30, 02:20 PM
Since everyone here seems pretty nice I'm hoping you'll let me ask a stupid question. Since I'm new to all this I don't know what RAW and WotC stand for. "Roland St. Judes" page that refers people to acronym questions just takes me to the Forum page or I would have used that.

RAW= Rules as Written, exactly as they appear in the book. Mostly used to abuse or debate, because House Rules are meaningless on forums like this.

WotC: Wizards of the Coast. The guys who make DnD.

Starbuck_II
2009-10-30, 02:23 PM
Since everyone here seems pretty nice I'm hoping you'll let me ask a stupid question. Since I'm new to all this I don't know what RAW and WotC stand for. "Roland St. Judes" page that refers people to acronym questions just takes me to the Forum page or I would have used that.

RAW= Rules as Written. What the paper says. (simple to know usually)
RAI= Rules as intended (this is hard to know)
WotC= Wizard of the Coast, makers of D&D 3.0 and up.
TSR= makers of earlier D&D.

Akal Saris
2009-10-30, 02:58 PM
Best

Being right
Being wrong and admitting it clearly
Saying nothing
Being wrong and admitting it unclearly
Being wrong and saying nothing
Being wrong and lying about it

Worst

Best in life

To crush your enemies, to see them driven before you, and to hear the lamentations of their women
Being right
Being wrong and admitting it clearly
Saying nothing
Being wrong and admitting it unclearly
Being wrong and saying nothing
Being wrong and lying about it
If I die, I have to go before him, and he will ask me, "What is the riddle of steel?" If I don't know it, he will cast me out of Valhalla and laugh at me. That's Crom, strong on his mountain!

Worst in life

Geddoe
2009-10-30, 03:07 PM
Actually, I believe they asked the Sage about this once, and he said it refreshes your maneuvers because you're essentially readying them again.

The Sage also said at one time that if you don't have the prereqs for a maneuver, that you lose the ability to use that maneuver until you get the prereq's back(ie, if you switch out a Shadow Hand maneuver to get a Tornado Throw, you could lose access to Five Shadow Creeping Ice Envervation Strike), which is counter to the entire point of the book and maneuver system.

FMArthur
2009-10-30, 03:16 PM
Does it not seem just a little strange that this single feat offers such a gigantic power spike to the Swordsage, though? It's basically manditory for Swordsages; there is no better option than to take this feat if you're a swordsage, under any circumstance... so why is there an option? Either way, I don't really care whether I was right or wrong about this issue anymore. I've gotten over my attachment to RAW - whether I was right or wrong, me and my players will continue to play with the 'get all of your maneuvers back' interpretation (as we were even when I thought we got it wrong, when this thread was made).

tyckspoon
2009-10-30, 03:17 PM
The Sage also said at one time that if you don't have the prereqs for a maneuver, that you lose the ability to use that maneuver until you get the prereq's back(ie, if you switch out a Shadow Hand maneuver to get a Tornado Throw, you could lose access to Five Shadow Creeping Ice Envervation Strike), which is counter to the entire point of the book and maneuver system.

This is generally how the rest of the game works, tho- if you lose feat or PrC prereqs, you lose the benefits of that feat/class/whatever. It's an understandable mistake (if it was a mistake. I think you do actually still have to meet the prereqs to keep a manuever- the weird thing is that a maneuver counts as part of its own requisites. So as long as you had 5 Shadow Hand maneuvers before you picked Five Shadow, and you still have 5 Shadow Hand maneuvers after you pick Five Shadow and swap out a different Shadow Hand maneuver, you still satisfy Five Shadow's requisite.)

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-30, 03:22 PM
Does it not seem just a little strange that this single feat offers such a gigantic power spike to the Swordsage, though? It's basically manditory for Swordsages; there is no better option than to take this feat if you're a swordsage, under any circumstance... so why is there an option? Either way, I don't really care whether I was right or wrong about this issue anymore. I've gotten over my attachment to RAW - whether I was right or wrong, me and my players will continue to play with the 'get all of your maneuvers back' interpretation (as we were even when I thought we got it wrong, when this thread was made).

Echo Spell, DMM, Natural Spell, Power Attack, Weapon Finesse, what's so bad about Adaptive Style? It doesn't break the class to let them recover faster; if anything it makes them capable of competing in long-duration encounters (I've seen a Swordsage need to recover maneuvers within two rounds).

Akal Saris
2009-10-30, 03:44 PM
It is strange, and it should probably have been made part of the base class.

Myou
2009-10-30, 04:05 PM
Echo Spell, DMM, Natural Spell, Power Attack, Weapon Finesse, what's so bad about Adaptive Style? It doesn't break the class to let them recover faster; if anything it makes them capable of competing in long-duration encounters (I've seen a Swordsage need to recover maneuvers within two rounds).

Echo Spell?

Darkfire
2009-10-30, 05:12 PM
Adaptive Style provides two benefits:

Allows you to change your readied manoeuvres as a full-round action rather than 50 full-round actions
RAW: automatically trigger recovery of a crusader's manoeuvres


The second feature was probably intended to simplify the book-keeping for crusaders (who otherwise have to randomly allocate their newly readied manoeuvres to their expended, granted and withheld lists) but had the unintended consequence of turning the feat into 'do what you can normally do in 5 minutes but in 1 round' for crusaders.

The Sage just took this interpretation and applied to the other martial adept classes in order to "balance" it but ended up turning this feat into a replacement recovery mechanic instead of the intended "don't get screwed over if you've readied the wrong manoeuvres for an encounter".

That said, the swordsage recovery mechanic (or "you'd best hope that this fight's over real quick and that you don't need to use the same thing twice") does need some love as there are only two feats that allow faster recovery: Sudden Recovery (which is 1/day) and Psychic Renewal (which requires psionic focus (and power points) so is probably no better than 1/encounter (unless you're investing in a psionic race/class/feat) and then you'll revert to what you'd do anyway) which both allow a swift action to recover only a single expended manoeuvre (big whoop).

Darrin
2009-10-30, 05:14 PM
Skills actually do matter in combat, and the Swordsage only needs to find a way to get Trapfinding and he's able to take up the party's Rogue's place.


Shape Soulmeld: Theft Gloves + Open Least Chakra.

Lycar
2009-10-30, 06:05 PM
Adaptive Style provides two benefits:

Allows you to change your readied manoeuvres as a full-round action rather than 50 full-round actions
RAW: automatically trigger recovery of a crusader's manoeuvres


...

The Sage ... ended up turning this feat into a replacement recovery mechanic instead of the intended "don't get screwed over if you've readied the wrong manoeuvres for an encounter".

That said, the swordsage recovery mechanic (or "you'd best hope that this fight's over real quick and that you don't need to use the same thing twice") does need some love as there are only two feats that allow faster recovery: Sudden Recovery (which is 1/day) and Psychic Renewal (which requires psionic focus (and power points) so is probably no better than 1/encounter (unless you're investing in a psionic race/class/feat) ...

You raise some very important points here: The opportunity costs of the 3 'blade magic' classes.

Warblades have by far the least manouvers known and readied.

Warblade lv 10: Known 8, readied 5
Crusader lv 10: Known 9, readied 6 (but random access)
Sowrdsage lv 10:Known 15, readied 8

This means that Warblades have a very 'focused' or 'narrow' style. That means that they can only ever cover 2 or 3 bases with their readied manouvers and if they want to get the high-level manouvers, even their choice of known manouvers needs to be focused.

The result is that the Warblade might find himself in a situation where his currently selected set of readied manouvers is of little or no use against the current encounter (otherwise he'll just keep spamming his 'best of'). Which basically turns him into a 'fighter without bonus feats', or maybe a 'barbarian without rage'.

With Adaptive Style though, he can spend a round to ready the other half of his known manouvers, so he has a chance to be not entirely screwed.

Therefore Adaptive Style is immensely useful for a Warblade.

For the Crusader, the setup is basically the same. He has one additional problem though: Even if he has readied the ideal manouver for the current encounter, it might currently be withheld. This may delay him only 1 to 3 rounds or so, but sometimes that is too long. So he can take a gamble and refresh his manouvers, hoping to be granted the one he hopes for.

So for the Crusader, Adaptive Style is even slightly more useful then for the Warblade.

Now let us look at the Swordsage: He has nearly double the amount of manouvers known and readied then the Warblade. But basically, he can only ever use 1 of each in a given encounter, because regaining a manouver is so damn hard to do.

What does this mean? It basically means that the Swordsage is kinda like a Swordmage, his readied manouvers being his spells memorized. Except he gets to regain them between encounters instead of between days.

Now there are basically two options how to interpret the exact effect of Adaptive Style on the Swordsage, and both have different effects on how the class works an plays:

A) You get to change your readied manouvers, but only manouvers (or manouver slots if you will) that were previously unexpended.

Result: The Swordsage can avoid the 'crap, prepared the wrong set of spells manouvers' problem, but still has only 8 discrete manouvers in each encounter before he starts getting desperate.

B) You change your readied manouvers and all your slots refresh.

Result: The Swordsage just got to replenish his entire arsenal for the price of a full-round action. This is something a caster type can only dream of.


Depending on your personal take on things (Swordsage is the most 'bookish/knowledge devoted' of the 3 and thus trades broad rage of manovers known and readied for raw prowess as opposed to Swordsage being the most 'wizardly' of the 3, preparing manouvers like spells), either version has it's merits.

Option A) does not really change much. Except that the Swordsage has to take a little more care to end the encounter before his mojo runs out. Much like a caster type. Which makes playing the class slightly more challenging.

Option B) means that the Swordsage doesn't have to break into a cold sweat as soon as round 9 approaches. It also eases the pressure on having to prepare the right set of manouvers.

Then again, so many people claim that combats tend to be over after 1 or 2 rounds tops at higher levels anyway, so...

Lycar

Darkfire
2009-10-30, 08:41 PM
Indeed: it's a useful feat for all martial adepts regardless of how you read it.


For the Crusader, the setup is basically the same. He has one additional problem though: Even if he has readied the ideal manouver for the current encounter, it might currently be withheld.
Or worse still, expended. Worst case, you could be waiting for 6 rounds (EDIT: or is it 5?) until you can use it again (and, until you hit 10th-level, there's a 60% chance it'll be at least 4 rounds unless you picked up Extra Granted Manoeuvre).


It basically means that the Swordsage is kinda like a Swordmage, his readied manouvers being his spells memorized.
This is exactly how I thought about it when I first saw the class with the exceptions that you can't ready the a manoeuvre more than once and you've got your Stance as well which is more comparable to the Marshall's & Dragon Shaman's auras (some of them at least).


Option B) means that the Swordsage doesn't have to break into a cold sweat as soon as round 9 approaches. It also eases the pressure on having to prepare the right set of manouvers.
If only it were round 9: you can blow through 2 manoeuvres a round if you've got boost/counter+strike combos, more if you can get more actions (White Raven Tactics from an ally and Belt of Battleare the only ones to spring to mind at the moment).

Of the two, B is the option that's got as much official approval as anything's going to get at this stage but A is what I think was originally intended. If you go with A, you just know that you're going to get Swordsages dipping Warblade so that they have something to rely on when encounters aren't over quickly.

Tokiko Mima
2009-10-30, 09:02 PM
Or worse still, expended. Worst case, you could be waiting for 6 rounds (EDIT: or is it 5?) until you can use it again (and, until you hit 10th-level, there's a 60% chance it'll be at least 4 rounds unless you picked up Extra Granted Maneuver).


It's not even really that bad:

Round 1: Two of five Maneuvers granted.
Round 2: Three of five Maneuvers granted.
Round 3: Four of five Maneuvers granted.
Round 4: All Maneuvers granted.
Round 5: Refresh with two of Five maneuvers granted.

When the Crusader gets to level 10, the number granted and total goes up, but the 4 round cycle doesn't change. As a bonus, the Extra Granted Maneuver feat shortens this to a 3 round cycle. If you PrC a Crusader with something that has fast maneuver readied progression, you can do something like start combat with 8 of 10 maneuvers granted, and the odds that the one you want isn't ready is only 20%.

Crusader refresh is NICE.

Darkfire
2009-10-31, 09:22 AM
It's not even really that bad:
Round 1: Two of five Maneuvers granted.
Round 2: Three of five Maneuvers granted.
Round 3: Four of five Maneuvers granted.
Round 4: All Maneuvers granted.
Round 5: Refresh with two of Five maneuvers granted.

My reasoning was more:
End of round 1: 1 expended (the one you want back), 2 granted, 2 withheld
End of round 2: 1 expended, 3 granted, 1 withheld
End of round 3: 1 expended, 4 granted, 0 withheld
End of round 4: Refresh, 2 granted, 3 withheld
End of round 5: 3 granted, 2 withheld
End of round 6: 4 granted, 1 withheld (the one you want)
End of round 7: 5 granted, 0 withheld

You've a 40% chance of the one you want back the most being granted at the end of round 4 then 20% for the end of each of the subsequent 3 rounds. At levels 10-19 it's 50% and 16.6r% respectively; at 20th its ~57.14% and ~14.29% respectively.

Taking extra granted manoeuvre changes the probabilities and reduces the worst case wait by two rounds (refresh happens a round faster and there's one fewer withheld manoeuvre to work through): Levels 1-9: 60% granted, 20% withheld for 1 round, 20% withheld for 2 rounds; levels 10-19: 66.6r%, 16.6r%, 16.6r%; level 20: ~71.43%, ~14.29%, ~14.29%.

Sinfire Titan
2009-10-31, 01:55 PM
Echo Spell?

Secrets of Xen'Dirk IIRC. It gives any spell prepared with it a Pearl of Power-effect; once you cast the spell, that spell is restored after 1 hour (but with a -4 CL penalty per refresh). If the CL penalty would prevent you from casting that level of spell, the effects end. It only works on prepared spells too.


Caster level is almost as easy to boost as skill checks. A "free" Echo spell on any spell only costs Practiced Spellcaster and a +3 metamagic feat. It effectively gives you unlimited spell slots if you know a way to mitigate the feat's slot increase (Anime Mage, Ultimate Magus, Incanatrix, Residual Metamagic, DMM) and can get your caster level high enough.