Power Attack and Weapon finesse at the same time

[Freelance Henchman]

Is it possible by the 3.5E rules under any circumstances to 2-hand a finesseable weapon and get the double damage return from using Power Attack with it? Basically relying on DEX both for AC, AB, and indirectly for damage?

[Kylarra]

I believe the cheese-chain does... in addition to everything else.

[raitalin]

IIRC, the only 2-handed weapon that you can apply Weapon Finesse to is the Elven Fullblade (?), so yeah, if you're using one of those you can use weapon finesse and power attack on a 2-hander.

You can use WF and PA together whenever you want, I just think that's the only 2-handed weapon that allows WF. I'm sure someone will dig up something more obscure.

EDIT: Ah, right. I suppose when you use a spiked chain with reach its considered 2-handed and WF capable.

EDIT: *Court*blade, thats it!

[T.G. Oskar]

Only exotic weapons allow that.

IIRC, Elven Courtblade (from Races of the Wild) applies for Weapon Finesse, and it's a 2-handed weapon. Spiked Chain (the kind of chain that has spikes made of Cheddar) also applies, since it can be wielded in two hands.

Aside from that, so far none, unless you decide to go for an oversized weapon?

[Kylarra]

I'm sure someone will dig up something more obscure.Or possibly one from Core. :smallbiggrin:

[Mathius]

I allow it. I don't see why you wouldn't. I also allow weapon finesse on any weapon. Just because its big, doesn't mean it can't be quick and deadly. The Dex would only count for attack and ac, damage would still rely on strength (If I read your question right).

In 2nd edition, I played character with a 2 hand sword with a speed factor of 3. Normally it had a factor of 10.

[Freelance Henchman]

Does a short sword count as a medium weapon for a small race? That would be finesseable I think? And then you could power-attack with it while using it 2-handed?

[Kylarra]

Does a short sword count as a medium weapon for a small race? That would be finesseable I think? And then you could power-attack with it while using it 2-handed?

With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls. emphasis mine.

[Mathius]

Does a short sword count as a medium weapon for a small race? That would be finesseable I think? And then you could power-attack with it while using it 2-handed?

Short answer: Yes.

[Freelance Henchman]

With a light weapon, rapier, whip, or spiked chain made for a creature of your size category, you may use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on attack rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty applies to your attack rolls.


If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies.

So if it's a light weapon, you never get any Power Attack damage bonus at all then? But it looks like you do get it from Rapier and Spiked Chain.

[Freelance Henchman]

Short answer: Yes.

But a short sword *for a small race* would be a light weapon and as such it doesn't really work any more though? And if you use a human's short sword for a small race it would not be a light weapon any more?

[Kylarra]

So if it's a light weapon, you never get any Power Attack damage bonus at all then? But it looks like you do get it from Rapier and Spiked Chain.
Yes. :smalltongue:


But a short sword *for a small race* would be a light weapon and as such it doesn't really work any more though? And if you use a human's short sword for a small race it would not be a light weapon any more?


A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

Yep. In any case, even if it didn't "change size" it would no longer be an appropriate weapon via the text of weapon finesse.

[kamikasei]

You could also be Corellon Larethian and finesse a longsword. I'm not sure that's the most excessively specific build advice I've ever seen offered over a single point of optimization. :smallwink:

[Freelance Henchman]

So is "power attacking with a rapier" a fairly frequently used concept? It sounds kinda weird to me, doesn't quite fit with the whole "Finesse" thing.

[kamikasei]

Not that I've ever heard of. One-handed power attack? What'd be the point?

[Freelance Henchman]

Not that I've ever heard of. One-handed power attack? What'd be the point?

But I thought from the SRD entries you can get double damage bonus for using a rapier 2-handed? :smallfrown:

[Kylarra]

But I thought from the SRD entries you can get double damage bonus for using a rapier 2-handed? :smallfrown:Just use a Falchion. :smalltongue:

[kamikasei]

But I thought from the SRD entries you can get double damage bonus for using a rapier 2-handed? :smallfrown:

"You can’t wield a rapier in two hands in order to apply 1½ times your Strength bonus to damage."

...although I suppose you could argue that this doesn't preclude wielding a rapier in two hands for some other purpose, such as boosting your PA multiplier, that'd be pretty strained. It's a rapier, it's one-handed, not just usable with one hand but only capable of being held with one hand. That's how I always considered it, at least.

[Freelance Henchman]

Could just use a Falchion. :smalltongue:

Well yes, but you can't finesse that...

[Kylarra]

Well yes, but you can't finesse that...But you'd be less MAD, and as I apparently forgot, rapier specifically precludes the 1.5x strength bonus from two-handed. I knew there was a reason I didn't mention it first.

[Freelance Henchman]

"You can’t wield a rapier in two hands in order to apply 1½ times your Strength bonus to damage."

...although I suppose you could argue that this doesn't preclude wielding a rapier in two hands for some other purpose, such as boosting your PA multiplier, that'd be pretty strained. It's a rapier, it's one-handed, not just usable with one hand but only capable of being held with one hand. That's how I always considered it, at least.

Hm, that makes sense. Rapiers are finesseable despite being medium but can't be 2-handed at all.

[Freelance Henchman]

But you'd be less MAD, and as I apparently forgot, rapier specifically precludes the 1.5x strength bonus from two-handed. I knew there was a reason I didn't mention it first.

That was sort of the point of my first question, i.e. could you build a fighter that hasn't any need for STR beyond carrying things but rather uses high BAB and high DEX both for improved AC, to hit things and also to get good damage. It sounds like the Spiked Chain allows exactly that.

[Kylarra]

Chain of cheese for the ... win I guess.

[Freelance Henchman]

I'm not saying I'm going to play nothing else from now on. :smallwink: It was just something I was wondering about.

[Grumman]

An Iaijutsu Master can also use Weapon Finesse with a bastard sword.

[Indon]

If there's any way to make an unarmed strike count as a 2-handed weapon for PA purposes, you could use that, since unarmed strike is finessable and supports power attack.

[Kylarra]

If there's any way to make an unarmed strike count as a 2-handed weapon for PA purposes, you could use that, since unarmed strike is finessable and supports power attack.
I don't even want to think about what you'd be two-handing to make an unarmed strike like that... :smalleek:

[kamikasei]

If there's any way to make an unarmed strike count as a 2-handed weapon for PA purposes, you could use that, since unarmed strike is finessable and supports power attack.

It's called "being Jim Kirk".

In fact, I have a feeling there's a feat somewhere that does exactly this. Hammer Blow, or something like that.

[Delaney Gale]

"You can’t wield a rapier in two hands in order to apply 1½ times your Strength bonus to damage."

...although I suppose you could argue that this doesn't preclude wielding a rapier in two hands for some other purpose, such as boosting your PA multiplier, that'd be pretty strained. It's a rapier, it's one-handed, not just usable with one hand but only capable of being held with one hand. That's how I always considered it, at least.

Rapiers are just flat uncomfortable to wield two-handed, and ineffective besides. They're piercing blades that rely on mobility, so they pretty much need to be wielded one-handed to do anything properly. A longsword, having edges, could theoretically do more damage if you use both arms- you'd be swinging it, which gets more power if you use both (i.e., baseball bat), while if you poke something precisely with a baseball bat, it's actually harder to do two-handed.

I love me some rapiers but that's soooo weird to think of them as a two-handed weapon. They really lend themselves to two-weapon far more than two-handed.

[Deepblue706]

...although I suppose you could argue that this doesn't preclude wielding a rapier in two hands for some other purpose, such as boosting your PA multiplier, that'd be pretty strained. It's a rapier, it's one-handed, not just usable with one hand but only capable of being held with one hand. That's how I always considered it, at least.

You can totally 2-hand PA with a Rapier. You're just getting 1xSTR MOD to the base damage.

I once wanted to make a Barbarian who thought that carrying a rapier would make him appear more "civilized". But when combat started, he'd just grab it in two hands and charge at people with it.

[kamikasei]

You can totally 2-hand PA with a Rapier. You're just getting 1xSTR MOD to the base damage.

That's what I'm calling a strained interpretation. "You cannot wield a rapier two-handed in order to..." That's some damn awkward phrasing if the part in italics is the only important part. "You can only deal 1xSTR even when wielding the rapier two-handed" is how it should be phrased if only the bonus damage, not the two-handed wielding, is what's prohibited.

There's room for disagreement, as I said, but I don't think you can fairly say that the rule unambiguously allows you to wield a rapier two-handed.

[Kylarra]

You can totally 2-hand PA with a Rapier. You're just getting 1xSTR MOD to the base damage.

I once wanted to make a Barbarian who thought that carrying a rapier would make him appear more "civilized". But when combat started, he'd just grab it in two hands and charge at people with it.

A weapon from a more civilized time eh?

[Freelance Henchman]

A weapon from a more civilized time eh?

Lightsabers are definitely finesseable and 2-handable! I've seen it in the movies. :smallbiggrin:

[Deepblue706]

That's what I'm calling a strained interpretation. "You cannot wield a rapier two-handed in order to..." That's some damn awkward phrasing if the part in italics is the only important part. "You can only deal 1xSTR even when wielding the rapier two-handed" is how it should be phrased if only the bonus damage, not the two-handed wielding, is what's prohibited.

There's room for disagreement, as I said, but I don't think you can fairly say that the rule unambiguously allows you to wield a rapier two-handed.

Actually, yeah, I've always thought them to just be really poor with phrasing.

I'd argue that you can actually wield a Rapier in two hands without fumbling it, but what is actual and what is present in D&D appears to differ on a number of occasions.

I suppose I wouldn't be too surprised to hear a DM disagree with my ruling, but I'd still make appeals regardless.

[kamikasei]

Lightsabers are definitely finesseable and 2-handable! I've seen it in the movies. :smallbiggrin:

Yeah, but they're exotic weapons.


Actually, yeah, I've always thought them to just be really poor with phrasing.

The intent always seemed clear to me: rapiers are one-handed but finessable, because their construction makes them act like light weapons, and so you can't two-hand them. And indeed, the image of two-handing a rapier in RL just seems bizarre. So, though the RAW isn't totally unambiguous I think it's clear enough how it ought to be read.

[Mathius]

But a short sword *for a small race* would be a light weapon and as such it doesn't really work any more though? And if you use a human's short sword for a small race it would not be a light weapon any more?

I was giving the answer I would allow for my players.

This is actually something you would have to take up with your DM. I would assume since you are a small character, then the rules for you (like carrying capacity and equipment sizes) are subject to change. By that dynamic, since a short sword is indeed medium for you (as it would be for any small race) that it would then recieve the bonuses. It is, however a matter of what the DM will and will not allow.

In my opinion RAW is WAR (Written As Rediculous)

I think the characters should be badasses. Even from the start. So I would let you do it just because it would be awesome to see a halfing gut an ogre with a shortsword.

[Kylarra]

I was giving the answer I would allow for my players.

This is actually something you would have to take up with your DM. I would assume since you are a small character, then the rules for you (like carrying capacity and equipment sizes) are subject to change. By that dynamic, since a short sword is indeed medium for you (as it would be for any small race) that it would then recieve the bonuses. It is, however a matter of what the DM will and will not allow.

In my opinion RAW is WAR (Written As Rediculous)

I think the characters should be badasses. Even from the start. So I would let you do it just because it would be awesome to see a halfing gut an ogre with a shortsword.The flipside to that train of thought though is, weapon finessing a large shortsword (read longsword) as a medium sized character...

[awa]

keep in mind you get a penalty to hit using inappropriately sized weapons

[Kylarra]

keep in mind you get a penalty to hit using inappropriately sized weaponsHa. I am totally off my game today. I keep thinking that there are reasons why these things aren't done and I can't think of them, but thank you for making me remember that I am not completely crazy. :smallsigh:

[Wings of Peace]

Erased because I can't read text.

[Cybren]

Early rapiers, with edged blades, were fairly heavy weapons. It wasn't until the later french smallsword that swords were the tiny, puny thing that people imagine.

[Kylarra]

Early rapiers, with edged blades, were fairly heavy weapons. It wasn't until the later french smallsword that swords were the tiny, puny thing that people imagine.
Don't speak too loudly (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0017.html).

[KillianHawkeye]

Yeah, but they're exotic weapons.

Not in SECR. Lightsabers have their own weapon group.

[Cieyrin]

You could also use an elven thinblade in two hands for the 1.5 Str and 2xPA. Why you'd want to over just using a courtblade, idk, but it's still an option, since it doesn't have the rapier clause.