PDA

View Full Version : Class Fixes



TheWerdna
2009-09-05, 03:17 PM
Alot of Classes are not balenced verywell, any ideas on how to fix them?

so far here it what i was thinking about.

Fighter: Gets Bonus Feats as normal as well as the special atack options from the PHB2

Monk: BAB of a Fighter, paladin, exetra. Flury of Blows is extra atk at full BAB with a -2 pentelty on all atacks. At 6th level can move 10 feet but still use Flury of blows

Ranger: Pet is now as a druid of level -3 (insdead of 1/2 level). Combat Style can pick TWF, Dodge, Point Blank Shot, or Combat Expertise. Bonus feats later must require the feat you chose at level 2.

Druid: need ideas to make a druid a little less OP.

Paladin: need ideas

quick_comment
2009-09-05, 03:23 PM
Fighter - d12 HD, 4+int skill points, Give the maneuver progression of a warblade, ability to add a int to a bunch of things and the ability to use two stances at level 20. Also can reassign weapon focus and similar feats each morning. Loses bonus feats.

Druid: Shapeshift variant

Monk: Give swordsage manevuer progression, a bunch of abilities to focus on various schools, some other misc abilities.

Paladin: Give the crusader maneuver progression, gains the ability to delay damage and get extra damage and attack out of it, gains a reroll per day, a few other features. Loses smite, mount, spellcasting.

nightwyrm
2009-09-05, 03:36 PM
1. Get rid of PHB Fighter, Monk and Paladin
2. Rename the Warblade, Swordsage and Crusader into Fighter, Monk and Paladin
3. ????
4. Profit

T.G. Oskar
2009-09-05, 04:19 PM
Fighter - d12 HD, 4+int skill points, Give the maneuver progression of a warblade, ability to add a int to a bunch of things and the ability to use two stances at level 20. Also can reassign weapon focus and similar feats each morning. Loses bonus feats.

Funny, sounds like a bad Warblade. If the intention is say "go play a Warblade", that's not the way.


Monk: Give swordsage manevuer progression, a bunch of abilities to focus on various schools, some other misc abilities.

Forgot to say "loses flurry, things that Monks never see". Again, failed to get the point. Unless...are you intending to let the SSage go nom nom nom on the Monk?


Paladin: Give the crusader maneuver progression, gains the ability to delay damage and get extra damage and attack out of it, gains a reroll per day, a few other features. Loses smite, mount, spellcasting.

Much like bad Warblade above, this sounds like so-so Crusader, or "Crusader with three Paladin levels" (since it apparently keeps Lay on Hands, Divine Grace, and so on). Crusaders get smite, you know (whether you don't like to use it, it's your choice), and their spellcasting isn't anything to joke at; if you were to blend Paladin spellcasting or even Cleric spellcasting with Crusader maneuvers, you could definitely make an awesome Crusading-Paladin.

Since apparently we're in the mood for jokes: I'll be serious later on!!
Fighter: some Warblade maneuvers (from Desert Wind (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Magnum_Break), and perhaps either Iron Heart or Stone Dragon, or even White Raven for White Raven Hammer (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Bash)), the Goad feat for free or even the first ability of the Knight's Challenge (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Provoke), Mettle and later Improved Mettle (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Endure), and fast healing scaling with level (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Increase_HP_Recovery). Also, give the ability to deal more damage with swords (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Sword_Mastery) and greatswords (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Two-Handed_Sword_Mastery) only.

Monk: keep the increased unarmed strike damage (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Iron_Fists), improve Wis to AC to allow light armor (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Flee_%28Skill%29), keep Flurry of Blows (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Raging_Quadruple_Blow) and improve to allow extra attacks with standard attacks (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Raging_Trifecta_Blow) and end the flurry with a rend-like attack that deals extra damage (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Raging_Thrust). Give spellcasting as Sohei from Oriental Adventures (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Acolyte), increased damage to Undead and evil Outsiders (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Demon_Bane), permanent Protection from Evil (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Divine_Protection), encounter-based abilities to reduce the critical threat range of weapon (with extra for fists and maces) (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Fury), and the ability once per day to either deal one attack that deals OMGWTFBBQ damage (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Guillotine_Fist) or reduce all damage to X for one encounter (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Mental_Strength). Perhaps Ki Blast as a bonus feat, with a Monk-exclusive ability to form it and keep it surrounding you, increasing your damage (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Summon_Spirit_Sphere) and allow it to be used for either DR ignoring increased damage (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Occult_Impaction), have them thrown all at once (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Throw_Spirit_Sphere), or recover spell slots (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Spiritual_Sphere_Absorption). Perhaps also Hold Person at will, but you also remain on the same spot (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Root), Dimension Door at will (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Snap), fast healing and the ability to recover spell slots per hour (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Spiritual_Cadence). On Epic, get maneuvers from all disciplines, the ability to touch pressure points, multiplied reserves of Ki Blast, enhancements to your Flurry of Blows, and more (http://ro.doddlercon.com/wiki/index.php?title=Shura)!

Paladin: keep (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Cure) Spell (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Heal)casting (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Resistant_Souls), Smite can only be used with Shields and causes Stun and provokes a bull rush (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Smite), ability to throw a Shield (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Shield_Boomerang) (and later combine it with Smite Evil and iterative attacks (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Rapid_Smiting)), maneuvers from Devoted (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Holy_Cross) Spirit (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Grand_Cross) only, free Improved Toughness feat (which can be stacked with Improved Toughness but just once) plus reduced damage from spells with the [Light] descriptor (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Faith), increased damage to Undead and evil Outsiders (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Demon_Bane), permanent Protection from Evil (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Divine_Protection), ability to use Shield Other and Glory of the Martyr at will (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Sacrifice), extra damage (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Spear_Mastery) and extra attacks with Spears (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Spear_Quicken), ability to completely block one attack per round (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Guard), keep the Mount (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Peco_Peco_Ride), allow the Paladin to reflect part of all melee attacks done to it while wielding a shield (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Shield_Reflect), sacrifice HP to deal more damage per attack (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Martyr%27s_Reckoning), give it Bardic Music abilities (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Battle_Chant), and perhaps some more combat spellcasting (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Gloria_Domini). On Epic, give it more spells, more maneuvers, ability to reflect any damage upon an area, Evasion plus insane Reflex, and some uber stances. (http://ro.doddlercon.com/wiki/index.php?title=Royal_Guard)

Kylarra
2009-09-05, 04:21 PM
Holy crap TG, my eyes burn from all the links.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-05, 04:24 PM
Alternatively, try anything in this thread.

Oslecamo
2009-09-05, 04:29 PM
You know, if you want to give everyone maneuvers weack spells in disguise(or in the case of IHS, just completely broken), you may as well go play 4e, where everybody plays the same mechanics, and save yourself work.

Doc Roc
2009-09-05, 04:34 PM
You know, if you want to give everyone maneuvers weack spells in disguise(or in the case of IHS, just completely broken), you may as well go play 4e, where everybody plays the same mechanics, and save yourself work.

And if you think spells are the same mechanic as maneuvers, I have a clock tower in London I'm willing to sell you. :smallbiggrin:

Hat-Trick
2009-09-05, 04:44 PM
You know, if you want to give everyone maneuvers weack spells in disguise(or in the case of IHS, just completely broken), you may as well go play 4e, where everybody plays the same mechanics, and save yourself work.

Someone understand! Praise the Day!

quick_comment
2009-09-05, 04:46 PM
Someone understand! Praise the Day!

Yeah, because you know, its so much fun to fight when your only options are

1) Move and attack
2) Full attack

Doc Roc
2009-09-05, 04:48 PM
Someone understand! Praise the Day!

So the entirely different mechanism for recovery, the fact that unlike spells they don't scale with level, the way that you can actually afford to use them constant, the way that stances provide crucial passive buffs otherwise unavailable, the excellent and systematic way of assigning an action cost to each ability, and the fact that really it's just a tiered list of active abilities....


All of this counts for nothing to you?

They have three things in common with spells:
Tiered nature
Primarily Actives
Expended on use.


Golly! That sounds exactly like spells.

Morty
2009-09-05, 04:50 PM
Yeah, because you know, its so much fun to fight when your only options are

1) Move and attack
2) Full attack

:smallsigh: Can we have a discussion about classes without ToB fans preaching why everyone who doesn't like manuevers is playing the game the wrong way? Please?
Anyway, those don't look bad. A neat way to balance the druid somewhat, as you're apparently allowing PHB2, is to use the Shapeshift variant from this book. It's much less gamebreaking. Ranger ought to get both spellcasting and animal companion as level -3 rather than 1/2 of level but really, Ranger's problem is that TWF and archery are less than impressive. Making them better would balance the ranger.

Hat-Trick
2009-09-05, 04:54 PM
Sounds close enough for me, friend. A trained fighter doesn't forget or lose the ability to use a trick, he doesn't have to "ready" them each morning, and he shouldn't have to pick and choose his choices for combat. He should be able to pick up a proficient weapon, glance it over, and do the same thing five times in a row if he so feels like it.

EDIT: You could switch the animal companion progressions of the Druid and Ranger, that might be a good alternative.

Boci
2009-09-05, 04:54 PM
:smallsigh: Can we have a discussion about classes without ToB fans preaching why everyone who doesn't like manuevers is playing the game the wrong way? Please?

Can we have a discussion about ToB without any lies such as manouver=spells and that it makes fighters that shoot fire out of their swords?

Boci
2009-09-05, 04:56 PM
Sounds close enough for me, friend. A trained fighter doesn't forget or lose the ability to use a trick, he doesn't have to "ready" them each morning, and he shouldn't have to pick and choose his choices for combat. He should be able to pick up a proficient weapon, glance it over, and do the same thing five times in a row if he so feels like it.

EDIT: You could switch the animal companion progressions of the Druid and Ranger, that might be a good alternative.

In real combat, if you do the same thing 5 times in a row, unless your enemy is stupid, he will kill you the third time you start doing the exact same thing.

Doc Roc
2009-09-05, 04:57 PM
Sounds close enough for me, friend. A trained fighter doesn't forget or lose the ability to use a trick, he doesn't have to "ready" them each morning, and he shouldn't have to pick and choose his choices for combat. He should be able to pick up a proficient weapon, glance it over, and do the same thing five times in a row if he so feels like it.

EDIT: You could switch the animal companion progressions of the Druid and Ranger, that might be a good alternative.

So anything that is expended on use is a spell?


:smallsigh: Can we have a discussion about classes without ToB fans preaching why everyone who doesn't like manuevers is playing the game the wrong way? Please?

All TG said was here are some other interesting ways to do things. Things then turned into bashing ToB. Your cries for tolerance are suspect.

Hat-Trick
2009-09-05, 04:58 PM
I never said he would, nor did I encourage it as a good tactic, he should just be able to if he ever wants to. And using the same trick doesn't mean doing it the exact same way each time. If the fighter wants to remove a limb, he doesn't have to attempt it at the same one each time, does he?

Kylarra
2009-09-05, 05:00 PM
Sounds close enough for me, friend. A trained fighter doesn't forget or lose the ability to use a trick, he doesn't have to "ready" them each morning, and he shouldn't have to pick and choose his choices for combat. He should be able to pick up a proficient weapon, glance it over, and do the same thing five times in a row if he so feels like it.
I've always thought the same about mages and blowing things up.

Boci
2009-09-05, 05:00 PM
I never said he would, nor did I encourage it as a good tactic, he should just be able to if he ever wants to. And using the same trick doesn't mean doing it the exact same way each time. If the fighter wants to remove a limb, he doesn't have to attempt it at the same one each time, does he?

Pretty bad example given that a fighter cannot remove a limb. And objecting to something because it makes it impossibly to do something really stupid is not the best argument ever.

Besides, your playing D&D. Its a system, nothing stands up to scrutiny and indepth comparison to the real world.

Morty
2009-09-05, 05:01 PM
All TG said was here are some other interesting ways to do things. Things then turned into bashing ToB. Your cries for tolerance are suspect.

Oh, for the love of... there was no "bashing ToB". There were two comments by people who don't like it.

Doc Roc
2009-09-05, 05:02 PM
:: gestures thoughtfully :: Basically, this boils down to the simulationist versus gamist arguments. I'm a gamist, through and through. I want a solid system I can do fun things in. If that means that maybe some mechanics require an expenditure of resources, then I'm okay with that. Quite okay with that, really. I guess this boils down to fundamentally incompatible desires regarding the shape of the game.

Hat-Trick
2009-09-05, 05:04 PM
Pretty bad example given that a fighter cannot remove a limb. And objecting to something because it makes it impossibly to do something really stupid is not the best argument ever.

The fact that a trained fighter can't remove limbs is a problem with the system that I always thought needed fixing. It would make HP damage worth something.

As for that second sentence, I may actually be too thick-skulled to understand. Clarify.

FMArthur
2009-09-05, 05:13 PM
Give ranger both of the combat styles instead of forcing a choice.

Hat-Trick
2009-09-05, 05:18 PM
Now there's an idea I can't believe I didn't think up myself. I know why I didn't I didn't mind the choice, but giving both styles would actually be a decent improvement.

quick_comment
2009-09-05, 05:24 PM
Now there's an idea I can't believe I didn't think up myself. I know why I didn't I didn't mind the choice, but giving both styles would actually be a decent improvement.

Not really. Either the ranger has melee feats, like power attack and martial study: pouncing chrge, or the ranger has ranged feats, like point like shot and many shot. Yeah, it gives them a 2nd option that doesnt suck as much, but it doesnt make them better.

Dienekes
2009-09-05, 05:27 PM
Ok

Getting away from TOB and folks mudslinging on both sides, like a pack of children.

1) Needs to fix the attack system itself. All types of warriors should be able to do more than just damage. It may be more complicated but a system of damaging arms and legs doing something would greatly improve the flexibility and use of a Fighter.

2) HP damage should have negative affects. Ex. with 3/4 hp all checks have -2 penalty or something. 1/2 make a save or be stunned for a round. This would also increase the capabilities of said fighter types.

3) Casting spells should be a scaling check. Fighters have to roll to deal damage, but casters can cast spell automatically? Shananigans. I'd use concentration so Wizards require more than 1 good stat.

4) Fix feats, make some scaling.

5) Fix spells, make some not so easily broken. Possibly ban all 9th level spells (before someone yells about this being a terrible idea for whatever, I'm discussing balance not if anyone would enjoy this change). I'd also put everything that buffs cost 1 level higher spell slot if used on themselves.

6) Monks, make them less MAD. Give abilities that replaces Str or Dex with Wisdom completely. Full BAB, and Pathfinders progression with Flurry of Blows. Make a lesser Flurry of Blows to be used as a Standard Action.

7) Fighter. Give some form of class abilities. Even very vague ones.

8) Paladin. Make all special abilities rely on Wisdom or Charisma not both. I would actually give them some of the abilities of the Crusader, if not the Maneuvers.

9) Druid, make them choose between a companion or shapeshifting.

10) Ranger, partly fixed by fixing feats. Improving their companion is a definite boon

I hope some of this helps. I'm a bit new to the balancing part.

TheWerdna
2009-09-05, 05:30 PM
Ya, if i wanted to fix the classes with menuvers then i would go play a friken Warblade.

Im looking for ways to fix those classes without moveing into the ToB rules.

For Rangers' combat styles i think just giveing them 2 other feat choices and haveing the improved and supierior combat style be any feat that that requires the feat chosen at level 2.

For druids, you are right, the PHB2 makes it so they can't cast spells in animal form.

For Fighters in the PHB2 there are some special atack options to take instead of feats, but giveing those along with the feats should balence it out more.

Hat-Trick
2009-09-05, 05:42 PM
Ya, if i wanted to fix the classes with menuvers then i would go play a friken Warblade.

Playing another class feels like a cop-out to me, that's another thing against ToB.

*Slaps self*

Off that topic already.

The system does need to change to allow injuries that actually do something other than get them that much closer to unconsciousness with nothing to show for it. Maybe allowing called shots to remove limbs (as said earlier) or inflict damage to abilities.

T.G. Oskar
2009-09-05, 05:59 PM
Holy crap TG, my eyes burn from all the links.

Ouch. Sorry for that. I guess I went a bit overboard on the joke, methinks.

If you don't want to see many links: Fighter would be Ragnarok Online's Swordman, Monk would be RO's Monk/Champion, and Paladin would be RO's Crusader/Paladin. The Epic references are to the future advanced versions of the last two, Shura and Royal Guard.


All TG said was here are some other interesting ways to do things. Things then turned into bashing ToB. Your cries for tolerance are suspect.

Actually, it was meant to be a joke. But if you want, I can show you a way to improve Knights (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Knight) and Ninjas (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Ninja), nerf Clerics (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Priest) and Wizards (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Wizard) (by driving their uber (http://ro.doddlercon.com/wiki/index.php?title=Arch_Bishop#Skills)-stuff (http://ro.doddlercon.com/wiki/index.php?title=Arch_Bishop#Skills) for later), give a new flavor to Sorcerers (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Sage) and Rangers (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Hunter), make Bards (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Bard#Class_Data)...sorta more interesting, rework the Assassin (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Assassin) to a base class, and even buff the Rogue (http://irowiki.org/wiki/Rogue) a bit.

However, as a real fix, I'd mostly recommend as follows:

First, the class to class swaps are a bit overrated. Some people like the abilities offered by certain classes. Nothing irks me more than say "replace Paladin spellcasting with Crusader maneuvers", then just be lazy and say "replace X with Y". Yes, it shows that you can work your archetype better with X class rather than Y class; no, it doesn't mean X class should have been Y class.

Second, if you love to add maneuvers, use the available Martial Study feats or make them alternate class features (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121939). A fix should work with the problems the class has, not just pin "this class is better, just deal with it". Apologies for the shameless homebrew insert; it's to stress the point on ways to work the problem.
Third, spells >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> maneuvers. Maneuvers are nice and whatnot, but in the end, the sole winners are the Cleric, the Druid, the Archivist, the Erudite, the Artificer and the almighty Wizard. A Paladin with Cleric spellcasting and Battle Blessing would cripple a Crusader in seconds flat. A Monk with Psionics gains great flexibility, one that doesn't turn as situational as a mere maneuver. Fighters are the only ones that have some trouble, mostly because their class abilities aren't up to par with spells (feats); either ways, even the Martial Adepts need feats to do the spectacular stuff (TWF is usually the path to the TSS nova builds, Gem Nightmare Blade maneuvers wouldn't be the same with incrementing damage, and so forth). And in the end, a Wizard well prepared would still top it all off.

I don't say those are bad methods to solve the problem; I am no voice of importance to force anyone to adapt their homebrews and houserules to my own decision. But if someone is asking "I need some ideas for fixes, here's what I got", that response is a tad inadequate.


Ya, if i wanted to fix the classes with menuvers then i would go play a friken Warblade.

Im looking for ways to fix those classes without moveing into the ToB rules.

For Rangers' combat styles i think just giveing them 2 other feat choices and haveing the improved and supierior combat style be any feat that that requires the feat chosen at level 2.

For druids, you are right, the PHB2 makes it so they can't cast spells in animal form.

For Fighters in the PHB2 there are some special atack options to take instead of feats, but giveing those along with the feats should balence it out more.

I'd give Rangers Druid spellcasting (up to 4th-5th spell level and full CL) plus their unique spells, as well as make all combat styles legal (the original ones plus the ones from the Dragon magazine articles); the feats from the combat styles are the ones that need some fixing (you might want to allow the Martial Study feats as a combat style, or even allow to make new combat styles). Also, boost their companion; perhaps either full Druid levels but half-level for choices, or viceversa.

Druids work very well with the Shapeshift variant. They don't become the monsters they usually are with Wild Shape. As well, the spontaneous healing reduces a bit their power, since they can't call at will the hordes of monsters.

Fighters are pretty hard to pin down, really. Fixing the feats fixes the Fighter, but perhaps some abilities for their dead levels should come in order.

As for Monks; I'm a follower of "Psionics make it better". Both the flurry path and the grappling path gain great benefit from just a few psionic powers; Hustle, Expansion, Animal Affinity, Metaphysical Weapon, Inertial Armor, Force Screen, Thicken Skin, Body Adjustment...and I can go on and on. Making them less MAD (such as adding their WIS to damage or their DEX to attack) make them much stronger. Finally, some abilities ought to have more uses; Abundant Step is awesome but only once per day HURTS, Quivering Palm is awesome but it's horrible if it can only be used once per WEEK; changing both to per day or per encounter makes it much, much better and perhaps would provoke people from thinking twice before getting out of 2nd level.

Paladin-wise, I like the spell list despite how limited it is. Core alone, they get Lesser Restoration, Restoration, Resist Energy, Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil, Greater Magic Weapon, Break Enchantment, Holy Sword, Dispel Evil, Bull's Strength, Eagle's Splendor and Owl's Wisdom. Out of Core, it gets much better spells: Mark of Doom, Righteous Aura, Sacred Haven, Holy Storm and Axiomatic Storm, Lawful Sword, Draconic Might, amongst others. Battle Blessing is to Paladins what Natural Spell is to Druids; a class ability outside the class, something that any if not all Paladins should have. Some Cleric spells make more sense to Paladins than to Clerics, so it makes even more sense to expand the list to Cleric spells + Paladin unique spells (much like what happens when you go Prestige Paladin), along with CL equal to caster level. Smite Evil is a cool ability, but it can't be as awesome as it should because it's per DAY; per encounter makes it just about right. The mount is cool, but not always the mount is useful; the Paladin's best class ability can't be used everywhere, and you need more feats than the Paladin has just to use the ability well.

There's material to work with the old classes without having to resort to merely replacing with ToB classes. It's awesome if you consider that the definite fix; just don't expect me in your table. And I'm not the only one who thinks like that (even though I think ToB is awesome, and one good way to tackle the Martial problem).

TheWerdna
2009-09-05, 06:01 PM
Actualy, the group i play in alredy has a limb damageing system in place.

each limb has its own HP equilt to 1/5 the charecter's total HP. When a Limb is damaged to charecter take 1/2 that damage to his total HP

To target a Limb you take a -4 pentelty on Atackrolls for leggs and Arms, and a -8 pentelty to target a head. if the arm is holding a sheild the pentelty is increased to atack that limmb becomes -8.

If a limb's HP drops to 0 or lower then the charecter takes the following pentetlys. if the Limb is reduced to -10 then the limb is useless until healed.

Leg: -10 to movment and a -4 on climb, swim, jumb, move silently, and balence chacks. (these effects stack in both legs are damaged).If leg is reduced to -10HP then the pentelty on skill chekcs becomes -8 and movement reduced by 20 feet.

Arm: -2 on atackroll with weapons and -2 on damge rolls with melee weapons.
For 2 handed weapons the penteltys are only -1. -4 on Climb, Swim and Str checks. If the arm is holding a sheild then the charecter's Ac is reduced by 1

If arm is rudeced to -10 then you can no longer use a weapon in that hand. Sheild bonus is no longer counted if a sheild was in that limb. Spells DCs are now 2 lower for that charecer's spells

Head: -4 pentelty on Atackrolls, Seath anc Stop checks. If the head is ruduced to -10 HP then the charecter'stotal HP instently drops to -1.

Any curing spell cast also heals one limb's HP = to the damage healed to the charecters total HP.

Hat-Trick
2009-09-05, 06:14 PM
Little sketchy, but sounds nice, Werdna. I might personally change a few things, but they're, well, personal nitpicks.

T.G. Oskar
2009-09-05, 06:19 PM
I almost forgot, TheWerdna.

You should nerf a bit spellcasters. Wizards simply can't equip any armor, not even Mithral Breastplates or Mithral Chain Shirts. Clerics can equip perhaps up to Chain Shirts (light, thus?).

Also, make them a bit more blasty. The best spell for Wizards shouldn't be Time Stop or Permanency or even Contingency or Moment of Prescience, it should be TILTOWAIT. Yes, TILTOWAIT. Don't expect to be called Werdna without summoning a Wizardry reference...

Eldariel
2009-09-05, 08:04 PM
I almost forgot, TheWerdna.

You should nerf a bit spellcasters. Wizards simply can't equip any armor, not even Mithral Breastplates or Mithral Chain Shirts. Clerics can equip perhaps up to Chain Shirts (light, thus?).

Also, make them a bit more blasty. The best spell for Wizards shouldn't be Time Stop or Permanency or even Contingency or Moment of Prescience, it should be TILTOWAIT. Yes, TILTOWAIT. Don't expect to be called Werdna without summoning a Wizardry reference...

I dunno, nerfing 'em is all fine, but forcing them to a role redundant to all other character classes? I'd rather retain my "shaper"-role, thank you very much. Nerf them if you will, but please let them choose their specialization rather than forcing them down one path.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-05, 10:47 PM
Ban the big 6. Ban anything tier 5 or lower. Now your weakest class is the Fighter, the strongest is a Psion. That's an acceptable spread.

In all honesty, there's a serious problem with balance in D&D that can't really be fixed without either eliminating the main casters or massive changes to the system. Even Test of Spite has considered banning Wizards due to their incredible capabilities, and if anyone should be able to compensate for imbalance, it's that group.

Also, the game will never be balanced until you fix the monsters.

Hawriel
2009-09-06, 12:15 AM
Yeah, because you know, its so much fun to fight when your only options are

1) Move and attack
2) Full attack

what a tiny little box you live in.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-06, 12:29 AM
what a tiny little box you live in.Without houserules, a Fighter has essentially the following options(all optins chosen on the basis of not wanting to suck[for example, I am ignoring Sunder]): Move+Attack
Full Attack
Charge
Trip(assuming the proper feats)
Bull-rush(assuming Dungeoncrasher+feats)
Archery(assuming feats, gear and stats which make the other options impossible)
Grapple(assuming humanoid noncaster opponent+proper feats)I may have missed one or two, but that's basically it. Most fighters will have all of the first 3 and a couple of the others. That's it. Not a very fun character IMHO.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-06, 12:35 AM
what a tiny little box you live in.

Allow me to expand upon his statement:

Your options as a Fighter are:


Move and attack
Charge
Full Attack and 5ft step
Trip
Disarm
Grapple
Draw another weapon and attack
Bull Rush
Overrun
Sunder (barring some very specific circumstances, this should never happen)
Use a magic item
Use a feat that allows you to do something different (very rare!)


How many of those involve the attack action? I count 8, counting the Full Attack and normal Attack.

Now look at the Warblade: How many options does he have? Answer: All of the above, plus whatever Strikes, Boosts, Stances, and Counters he has. Each one does something different.

Now look at the spellcaster. What actions can he take?


Cast a spell. Rape the Encounter. Move action.
Cast 2 spells, and raoe the encounter twice.
Double Move.
Everything the Fighter can do, thanks to Polymorph.






I fail to understand what people's obsession with Damage Locations is. It does nothing to the caster (as they are never getting hit) and screws the people dumb enough to get up in something's face (where most of the damage is being dealt). Its like some people can't play a game unless its a direct analogue of Real Life. Makes me question why those people are trying to play DnD, a system where a single base class is capable of defying the laws of Physics as a Swift action.

lsfreak
2009-09-06, 12:42 AM
And on top of that, as soon as you're out of combat the fighter has essentially no options besides gear mule. Compared with a caster, who can as we said do everything the fighter can do but can also do all kinds of roleplaying stuff with their spells (negotiations, disinformation, item creation, and so on).

Hat-Trick
2009-09-06, 01:41 AM
And on top of that, as soon as you're out of combat the fighter has essentially no options besides gear mule. Compared with a caster, who can as we said do everything the fighter can do but can also do all kinds of roleplaying stuff with their spells (negotiations, disinformation, item creation, and so on).

You say this as if it's a bad thing. I personally don't mind being the soldier who just does combat. I just want to be effective in someway.

As for hit locations, it allows HP damage to mean something NOW! Not just when they reach 0. A severed arm is a severed arm, no matter if the attack did 7 HP or over 9000 (:P).

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-06, 01:44 AM
You say this as if it's a bad thing. I personally don't mind being the soldier who just does combat. I just want to be effective in someway.

As for hit locations, it allows HP damage to mean something NOW! Not just when they reach 0. A severed arm is a severed arm, no matter if the attack did 7 HP or over 9000 (:P).

It also says "Screw you Fighter, you're going to suck horribly because taking damage makes you less effective and the casters never have to worry about that problem because of Summons or Displacement".

In other words, it widens the gap.

Hat-Trick
2009-09-06, 01:48 AM
Oh, humm, if only there were something to mitigate damage. Oh, wait that mechanic sucks as well. AC.

AC doesn't scale the way it should. A trained warrior is harder to hit than a greenhorn, but not in DnD. There's something else for the drawing board.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-06, 01:51 AM
Oh, humm, if only there were something to mitigate damage. Oh, wait that mechanic sucks as well. AC.

AC doesn't scale the way it should. A trained warrior is harder to hit than a greenhorn, but not in DnD. There's something else for the drawing board.

Fast Healing would help, but nothing less than a Heal spell every round is going to mitigate the damage the front-liners are taking. Healing just doesn't keep up with the damage (this is glaringly obvious in PVP, as Cure Critical Wounds doesn't hold a candle to a Charger build).

Hat-Trick
2009-09-06, 01:56 AM
Better AC, maybe a miss chance to represent skilled evasion, parrying, hardiness, etc. Fast healing would help lessen the need for healing as well. Heck, maybe we can give some sort of DR.

Dienekes
2009-09-06, 01:59 AM
It also says "Screw you Fighter, you're going to suck horribly because taking damage makes you less effective and the casters never have to worry about that problem because of Summons or Displacement".

In other words, it widens the gap.

Hit locations is not for Fighter vs Wizard, it's for a Fighter being useful in combats against monsters.

Let's be fair here, if a dragon swipes at a Fighter it's gonna be near impossible to aim at their arm (if the system is detailed enough). However a Fighter can aim for theirs and affect how they work and make their swiping attack less damaging.

It's not perfect, but it allows Fighters more options. Also different abilities and feats could be made to negate the penalties. Your analogy is not really correct though, since any spell a caster can cast an opposing caster can. So is the caster weaker because their opponents have the same options they have? That's illogical.

Another option is to make such attacks feats or abilities to use. It is less realistic but it gives the Fighter types more options which are useful.

Doc Roc
2009-09-06, 02:01 AM
Maybe you'd enjoy the excellent Savage Worlds system? I think it's closer to what you want.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-06, 02:19 AM
Hit locations is not for Fighter vs Wizard, it's for a Fighter being useful in combats against monsters.

Then why does it also apply to the Fighter? His opponents are going to outnumber him 90% of the time (unless the DM is being an idiot and only throwing 1 creature/encounter at them) to counterbalance the fact that the party would have the advantage in the Action Economy, so odds are he's going to get swarmed, mauled, and rendered useless within the first round.


Let's be fair here, if a dragon swipes at a Fighter it's gonna be near impossible to aim at their arm (if the system is detailed enough). However a Fighter can aim for theirs and affect how they work and make their swiping attack less damaging.

But what about whatever the Dragon summoned the previous round? Or his other minions? What's protecting the Fighter from the penalties imposed by damage those guys are dealing?

Jack. That's it. There's nothing stopping him from being dropped by 3 random mooks, who then move onto the rest of the party.


It's not perfect, but it allows Fighters more options. Also different abilities and feats could be made to negate the penalties.

Great, so now the feat-starved classes are going to have to dip even more levels into the Fighter class to prevent themselves from sucking? More feats isn't the answer; its actually a lot worse if you implement this and make new feats to negate the penalties as it subtracts from the all ready limited options the Fighter has.


Your analogy is not really correct though, since any spell a caster can cast an opposing caster can. So is the caster weaker because their opponents have the same options they have? That's illogical.

PC casters tend to be more powerful than NPC casters due to items and class features. Dragons are innately weaker than the ECLs they are sent against; a CR 24 Great Wyrm that casts as a 19th level Sorcerer isn't going to compare favorably to a 24th level PC Sorcerer. This makes a huge gap in the system.


Another option is to make such attacks feats or abilities to use. It is less realistic but it gives the Fighter types more options which are useful.

Why not just use Tome of Battle and call it a day? No matter how you look at this Injury System, it still is an unnecessary nerf to melee characters.

Tetsubo 57
2009-09-06, 04:54 AM
Maybe you'd enjoy the excellent Savage Worlds system? I think it's closer to what you want.

I have to get myself a copy of this game...

Tetsubo 57
2009-09-06, 04:57 AM
Without houserules, a Fighter has essentially the following options(all optins chosen on the basis of not wanting to suck[for example, I am ignoring Sunder]): Move+Attack
Full Attack
Charge
Trip(assuming the proper feats)
Bull-rush(assuming Dungeoncrasher+feats)
Archery(assuming feats, gear and stats which make the other options impossible)
Grapple(assuming humanoid noncaster opponent+proper feats)I may have missed one or two, but that's basically it. Most fighters will have all of the first 3 and a couple of the others. That's it. Not a very fun character IMHO.

See, I think this is perfect. If I want to play a complex class, I'll play a Wizard or Rogue chock full of skills. But if I want to play a nice, simple character, Fighter is the go to class. I don't want a complex Fighter class. I don't like ToB. There are times, when the best thing to play is a character that grabs a weapon, bellows a challenge at his enemy and beats him to pulp.

"Hulk SMASH!"

Boci
2009-09-06, 06:26 AM
See, I think this is perfect. If I want to play a complex class, I'll play a Wizard or Rogue chock full of skills. But if I want to play a nice, simple character, Fighter is the go to class. I don't want a complex Fighter class. I don't like ToB. There are times, when the best thing to play is a character that grabs a weapon, bellows a challenge at his enemy and beats him to pulp.

"Hulk SMASH!"

But that is more characteristic of a barbarian, with the option of a frenzied beserker.

Ultimately however, its a game about fun, and if everyone in a group has tried ToB and does not think it will increase their enjoyment, then there is no reason for that group to use it.

Paganboy28
2009-09-06, 07:14 AM
Not thought it through but just out of the blue...

Allow non-full caster characters to be gestalt.

So you could have fighter/rogue, fighter/monk, monk/rogue, etc

Boci
2009-09-06, 09:45 AM
Not thought it through but just out of the blue...

Allow non-full caster characters to be gestalt.

So you could have fighter/rogue, fighter/monk, monk/rogue, etc

JaronK had that idea as well, although he recomended that the more powerful melee classes only be able to gestalt with NPC classes.

I though maybe an LA could be used, but I'm not sure if it would work out.