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Yora
2009-09-05, 05:56 PM
I guess I'm just not getting this class. When I look at it, it seems completely awful and useless, but still it's listed rather high on tier lists, and it's sometimes recommended for builds.

The "buffs" from vestiges are all nice, but what does a Binder actually do? Be happy with fire resistance and beat people with a club?

If you know more, please explain this class to me. :smallbiggrin:
If there's a useful link, it's also welcome.

Amphetryon
2009-09-05, 06:09 PM
Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=137.0).
Another (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871830/Consolidated_Binder_Handbook).

Kobold-Bard
2009-09-05, 06:36 PM
Handbook (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=137.0).
Another (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871830/Consolidated_Binder_Handbook).

Yeah that's pretty much it. I don't have much else to add, but if you ever get a chance to make it to Epic, they are phenomenal. Also check out The Demented One's sig for some good homebrew Vestiges (that will be alowed by most DM's on the site because he's a trusted figure of game balance.)

Starbuck_II
2009-09-05, 08:11 PM
I guess I'm just not getting this class. When I look at it, it seems completely awful and useless, but still it's listed rather high on tier lists, and it's sometimes recommended for builds.

The "buffs" from vestiges are all nice, but what does a Binder actually do? Be happy with fire resistance and beat people with a club?

If you know more, please explain this class to me. :smallbiggrin:
If there's a useful link, it's also welcome.

Um, remember Augment ability lets you chooce the AC, saves, hit, etc bonuses.

It makes a wonderful Dip, a great splash, and good dive. Really, it is what every class to strive for.

That said: Splashes and dips make it a high tier.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-05, 08:30 PM
It's not just the splashes and dips, some of their Vestiges are wonky. Epic ones too, but everything in Epic is broken one way or another.

There's Vestiges in Cityscape (via Web Enhancement) and Dragon Magic (Ashalardon). There's also a couple of online ones that are just broken. Theres one that acts like Summon Psuedonatural (as in the CArc template) Monster X, with a CL equal to your EBL, and a recharge of 5 rounds. That means you can spam summons that have a duration of 1 round/level. And the level of the spell is determined by your EBL, and you can get up to the 9th level version (last I checked).

Then there's one that gives you a free Item Crafting feat, allowing you to become a mini-Artificer. That be broken, you know?

Finally, they actually play like a Warlock, but slightly better. Amon can be used to qualify for Metabreath feats and Entangling Exhalation, allowing you to play a DFA on crack (save for the Fire problem). And with the right combo of Vestiges and Pact Augmentations (and the Knight of the Sacred Seal PrC) you can tank like the best of them.

Binders, like Meldshapers, shine best in Gestalt though. Crusader/Binder or Totemist/Binder (or Incarnate/Binder) are very good combinations, as is PsiWar/Binder (with the Psionic Vestiges).

woodenbandman
2009-09-05, 10:06 PM
I played a binder 13-20 and I have to say that they're just a blast to play. If your party is low on sneaky things (like mine was), you can simply choose the vestige that gives you sneaking bonuses, and you'll fill that role. I used the combination of Malthos (Morthos?) and Chupoclops to get invisibility once every 5 rounds, use incorporeality to run through walls, and have a slew of useful abilities besides. You can be great in melee with Cupoclops pounce + Tenebrous Teleport, you can be a debuffer with some of your auras from vestiges, your abilities can make you a useful damage dealer with stuff like the called lightning bolts and the breath weapons.

Basically, the reason they're good is that despite what you use your feats on (I personally took Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Weapon Focus, Leadership, Improved Cohort, and Force of Personality) they can still expand to fill a role if one is needed. Say for some reason that you need a scout, bam, you have one. Melee? Sure. That DR 10/Adamantine combos great with your Pounce. Ranged is a bit hard, but other than that they can fill almost any role you want.

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-05, 10:29 PM
I'm not horrifically familiar with binders. Would a gestalt factotum//binder do well?

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-05, 10:41 PM
I'm not horrifically familiar with binders. Would a gestalt factotum//binder do well?

Depends on if you mind taking the penalties imposed by the Vestiges. You dump Charisma, and then fail every binding check for the rest of your life, but still manage to kick ass because you're a Factotum.

Unusually, failing the Binding check just means you are subjected to the Vestige's influence and take penalties unless you act accordingly. the penalties are fairly minor though.

Draz74
2009-09-06, 12:52 AM
You dump Charisma, and then fail every binding check for the rest of your life, but still manage to kick ass because you're a Factotum.

I've seen Factotum builds with high/decent Charisma before, so I really don't understand why you're saying this.

Factotums don't have any class features that depend on Charisma, but they do get all social skills and can function as party faces; and they don't actually need STR/DEX high, especially when Binder levels are giving them cool offensive weapons.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-06, 01:34 AM
I've seen Factotum builds with high/decent Charisma before, so I really don't understand why you're saying this.

Factotums don't have any class features that depend on Charisma, but they do get all social skills and can function as party faces; and they don't actually need STR/DEX high, especially when Binder levels are giving them cool offensive weapons.

I just said it because I could.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-06, 08:52 AM
Ignore Requirements feat is a must take for some vestiges.

Thurbane
2009-09-06, 09:45 PM
The number one feat for Binders is Improved Binding - allows you access to vestiges as if you were two levels higher. And you can take it right at first level. It's like a feat that allows a caster to access his next higher level of spells. :smallwink:

Yora
2009-09-07, 04:33 AM
Thanks for the replies.

But what does a binder actually do? Is it a warrior class?

Boci
2009-09-07, 04:39 AM
Thanks for the replies.

But what does a binder actually do? Is it a warrior class?

What they do depends on which vestidge they have bound.

Edit:

The number one feat for Binders is Improved Binding - allows you access to vestiges as if you were two levels higher. And you can take it right at first level. It's like a feat that allows a caster to access his next higher level of spells. :smallwink:

I was considering this, but I thought it might be over powered at 1st level. Maybe 3rd or 6th.

kamikasei
2009-09-07, 04:41 AM
Thanks for the replies.

But what does a binder actually do? Is it a warrior class?

A whole bunch of things. They can change what they do each day. How you spend your skills and feats (and gear) will influence which vestiges are most useful to you, but essentially a binder can fill a wide range of roles depending on what the party needs right now.

As they make considerable use of CHA, they make good faces.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-07, 06:29 AM
Thanks for the replies.

But what does a binder actually do? Is it a warrior class?

Depends on Vestige:
Warrior vestiges-
1) Paimon: A whirling Dervish. "Spins those blade a right round, like a record baby, right around." You know the song.
2) Leraje: Archer extraordinary- can richoet arrows against foes.
3) Ronove: A monk who can bull rush at ranged (deals auto 1d6 damage). Unarmed damage, speed, and feather fall (instead of slow fall)
4) Savnok: heavy armored warrior who fears arrows. Grants you his armor.
5) Adras: a Knight who smites.
6) Eurynome: Bashes enemies with maul.
7) Kas: you know his story, he was Vecna's best warrior. (dragon magazine details him as a vestige)
8) Balam: Dark swordmen-ish.
9) Eligor: Dragonslayer

But that is only a 1/4th of vestiges.
Some vestiges are diplomancers, others casters (psionic, arcane, and otherwise), others are dead gods (Orcus..I mean Tenebrous lives in you!), etc.

Think of them as ancestral spirits that impart their powers for one more day of life.

Yora
2009-09-07, 06:33 AM
Okay, that explains where the confusion comes from. It IS complex. :smallbiggrin:

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-07, 07:15 AM
I was considering this, but I thought it might be over powered at 1st level. Maybe 3rd or 6th.

You're at first level. The second-level vestiges won't give you phenomenal cosmic power, given your poor EBL and your general frailty.

Fizban
2009-09-07, 07:22 AM
The answer is much like the one in the instruction booklet for Morrowind: whatever [they] want to. This can be quite infuriating if you'd like some direction :smallannoyed:

I've never played one, but in reading the class I figure you basically have to know what all the vestiges do pretty much by heart. This isn't too hard because 1: there isn't much support outside of the book they're in, and 2: you can learn a bit at a time as you level up. So really the best way to find out what a Binder does in the party is to just roll one up at 1st level and see what happens.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-07, 08:02 AM
Okay, that explains where the confusion comes from. It IS complex. :smallbiggrin:

At first, it can be because the Vestige index isn't organized by level you can get them but by alphabet.
There is a table that shows level useage, but can be easy to miss first time.

Luckily, D&D fans make class handbooks.


Really, you should look over choices and think: what are you today?
Like at low levels Ronove (fake monk) is pretty awesome. Almost like at will Magic missile that can bull rush foes.
But then you notice that bull rushing ability never has a great chance to do anytime but damage. The Str score is your efffective Binding level (not Str bonus, but score).

Lejare is pretty good at low levels as well: but Richochet never improves so eventually (when BAB allows additional attacks) you stop using it.

Aym is good no matter what: you are freaking flaming Dwarf! You have fire touch (enemies that hit you also take damage) and fire resist.

Thurbane
2009-09-07, 04:33 PM
Thanks for the replies.

But what does a binder actually do? Is it a warrior class?
Like the Factotum or Chameleon PrC, it can adapt to fit various roles. If you check out the handbooks linked to earlier, there is advice on how to fill various roles - tank, scout, healer, blaster etc.