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Jergmo
2009-09-05, 07:54 PM
Alright, so I keep seeing all the threads complaining about how wizards/clerics are totally broken and fighters are worthless in every way and a whole party of wizards would defeat everyone. This is hilariously incorrect, but I've been working on ways to change certain things in any case that are a bit funky. If you see anything that needs to be covered, or want to come up with a situation that proves that wizards/clerics/druids/whatever are SO BROKEN, please share and we can figure out why it's not broken, or if it is, maybe we can figure out how to fix it :smallsmile:

I'll be copy-pasting some stuff from a wordpad that I already have this down on.

I know it's a big honking thing to read, but please bear with me.

And never forget, all those area effect/buff/etc. spells the Wizards/Clerics/Druids/Sorcerers are tossing around are subject to Dispel Magic! A party of four wizards or clerics vs. a fighter, rogue, wizard and cleric would fall apart!

Note: Various variant class rules are allowed. For examle, a fighter can select their own skill set (6 + Craft (or, heck, replace Craft with something if you want. Why should every fighter know how to craft things?)). If you wanted to make a finesse-oriented fighter, you could, for example, go with Balance, Bluff, Escape Artist, Jump, Sense Motive and Tumble, and sacrifice fighter bonus feats for sneak attack progression for flanking and feinting.
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Penalties From Damage

50% health: Mild Injuries (Deeply bruised, pierced, or sliced open)
Arm: -2 to all attacks and all skill checks involved in using that arm. 20% spellcasting failure chance.
Abdomen: -2 to attack rolls involving the tail and Balance, Jump and Tumble skill checks.
Leg: -2 to all Dexterity bonuses for AC (if any) and Balance, Climb, Jump, Move Silently and Tumble skill checks involving that leg.
Torso: -1 penalty to attacks and Balance, Climb, Escape Artist, Jump, Move Silently, Ride, Swim or Tumble checks.
Wing: Flying speed reduced by one-half and maneuverability by one category.
Head: -2 penalty to Initiative, Listen and Balance. 20% spellcasting failure chance.

Note: Body part must be hit again when below 25% health for the penalties to rise.

25% health: Serious Injuries (Bone has been snapped, area severely pierced or split open.) Victim begins suffering from continual bleeding damage until injuries are healed.
Arm: Penalties rise to -8. 40% spellcasting failure chance.
Abdomen: Penalties rise to -8.
Leg: Penalties rise to -8, movement rate reduced by one-half.
Torso: Penalties rise to -5 and movement speed is reduced by one-half.
Wing: Wings can only be used to glide clumsily and can only take off from an elevated position. When attempting to land, victim must roll a Dexterity check (DC 17) or crash, taking 2d6 damage.
Head: Constitution check (DC 17) or go into shock and suffer additional damage equal to base damage of the weapon used to cause the injury.
Bludgeoning: Cannot speak command words properly or cast spells with verbal components.
Piercing: Severe eye damage. -4 penalty to ranged attacks and Spot. An additional hit means blindness.
Slashing: -4 penalty to Initiative, Listen and Balance.

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General Changes
Armor As Damage Reduction is implemented: Full AC as normal, with half damage reduction. In cases such as a breastplate or studded leather, round down. IE: AC +5 = DR 2/-. Natural armor also applies.
Defense Bonus is implemented.

Archer cap added to misc. equipment. Cost: 5 sp. Effect: +1 attack roll with ranged weapons, additional -1 penalty to Spot checks while in combat.

Falchion deals 2d6 instead of 2d4. Khopesh added, deals 1d8. 18-20 x2 crit range.

The Spell Point system is in effect. The spell point cost of a spell is changed to (spell level x spell level /2, round up).

Arcane Archer
Base Attack Bonus requirement lowered to +4, Elf or half-elf requirement removed. 6/10 caster progression, requires Craft Magic Arms and Armor instead of Precise Shot.
Improved Imbue Arrow (Sp):
At 4th level, an arcane archer gains the ability to place a "touch attack" spell upon an arrow and deliver the spell through a ranged attack. When the arrow is fired and successfully hits a target, the spell is activated on the target as though the arcane archer herself had cast it from the correct range. It takes a standard action to cast the spell and fire the arrow. The arrow must be fired in the round the spell is cast, or the spell is wasted.

Arcane Trickster
Spellcasting requirements lowered to at least one arcane spell of 2nd level.

Blackguard
Base Attack Bonus requirement lowered to +4. (I don't even know what all I'll do with this poor class.

Cleric
A cleric may choose between being a battle cleric or a full spellcaster. If a cleric chooses to become a full spellcaster, they gain the Spell Point pool of a sorcerer as well as a sorcerer's armor and weapon proficiencies and hit die progression. Battle clerics gain proficiency in their deity's favored weapon and clerics with the War domain gain proficiency with all martial weapons.

Druid
Druids may sacrifice the ability to gain an animal companion in favor of gaining one of the following domains: Plant, Animal, Earth, Fire, Water, Air, Weather.

Druids in animal form retain their base attributes and lose their physical racial attributes while in animal form. (Goodbye, dump stats)

Duelist
Base Attack Bonus requirement reduced to +5.
Canny Defense: Remove the "per duelist class level" part.
Precise Strike: Changed to first level. +2d6 at level 3, +3d6 at level 5, +4d6 at level 7, and +5d6 at level 9.

Dwarven Defender
Base Attack Bonus requirement reduced to +5. (Again, don't know what all I'm going to do with this)

Eldtritch Knight
At first level, an Eldtritch Knight gains Armored mage (light). This increases to Armored mage (medium) at level 8. Requires ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells and +3 BAB.

Fighter
Bravery (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus on Will saves against fear. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd, to a maximum of +5 at 18th level.
Weapon Expertise (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons (Axes, heavy blades, light blades, bows, close quarters, crossbows, double weapons, flails, bludgeoning weapons, pole arms, spears, or thrown). Whenever the fighter attacks with a weapon from this group, it gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls. Every four levels after, the bonus increases by +1 and the fighter can choose a new weapon group. (Little bonuses from Pathfinder)

Loremaster
Reduce Knowledge rank requirements to 8 and the metamagic or item creation feat requirements to two.

Monks
Body Manipulation: At 8th level, the monk further masters his physique and gains the ability to boost his physical statistics, gaining a +2 bonus to Str, Dex, and Con once per day for a number of rounds equal to 3+ wisdom modifier.
Body Control (Ex): At third level, +2 bonus on saving throws against spells and effects from the school of Transmutation, since his studies and introspection give him insights into and better control over his body.
At 5th level, the monk gains the ability to remove fatigue or reduce exhaustion to fatigue 1/day.

Rangers
Ranger level for determining animal companion is level -3 rather than 1/2 level.

Rogue
Rogues can use light shields and bucklers.

Shadowdancer
Lowered required ranks in Hide to 8. Dismissing a shadow does not incur an experience penalty. Shadow Illusion can be used at will. A shadowdancer's shadow companion starts with +2 HD.

Sorcerers
At first level, Sorcerers gain Eschew Materials and Force of Personality as bonus feats.
Add Diplomacy, Intimidate and Sense Motive to Class Skills List.
A familiar's bonuses are increased by PrC caster level increases.
A sorcerer can choose to learn any number of new arcane spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list in place of sorcerer spells he already knows, effectively exchanging them. All new spells learned in this way must be of the same level as the ones they replace. To do so, they must enter a state of meditation lasting eight hours without inerruption, succeeding on a Concentration check equal to 15 + highest spell level exchanged.
Innate Arcana (Ex): Sorcerers may their Charisma modifier rather than Intelligence for Knowledge(Arcana) and Spellcraft checks.
Improved Eschew Materials (Su): Starting at 5th level, the sorcerer can cast any sorcerer spell that has a material component or focus worth 100 gp or less without needing that component or focus. (Don't get me started, I've argued with several people about the spell changing thing)

Wizards
A familiar's bonuses are increased by PrC caster level increases.
Specialist wizards do not ban schools; instead, spells from penalized schools have a cost equal to one spell level higher. 9th level spells for penalized schools cost 24 points.

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Metamagic Feat Changes
Chain Spell: Unavailable.
Cooperative Spell: The spell point cost of a cooperative spell is split by the number of spellcasters contributing. IE: If three level 5 wizards were to work together to create a fireball, each would pay 1 spell point rather than 3. If there is an uneven point distribution, such as the same example with two wizards, round the point cost up after division; each wizard would pay two spell points.
Innate Spell: Works like the Archmage High Arcana Spell-Like Ability.

Spell Changes

Any Spell That Causes Attribute Damage/Penalty: These spells can only bring a creature's base attribute score down to 3. IE: If you were to cast Ray of Enfeeblement on an average ogre (21 strength), you could bring it down to 13 strength. (This idea was taken from older editions, or at least it worked this way in BG2, where Ray of Enfeeblement, could only reduce it to 3 and you couldn't do a cheesy thing like kill it with an additional spell)

Sorcerer/Wizard
Alter Self: Duration of 1 min./level and increased to 3rd level.
Blindness/Deafness and Glitterdust: 3rd level
Celerity/Greater Celerity: Unavailable.
Dispel Magic: Targeted Dispel only.
Enlarge/Reduce Person: Increase to 4th level. Attribute changes are equal to those of a creature increasing or reducing in size category. Enlarge/Reduce Person, Mass increased to 7th level.
Fabricate: Allows you to convert 1 cubic foot per level for all materials.
Freedom of Movement: Grants a +5 circumstance bonus to s, aves against paralysis/slow/grapple/escape artist checks/etc., and allows you to move at full speed through environmental effects such as solid fog/web/etc.
Gate: If you attempt to call a creature, it receives a Will save.
Knock: Substitutes Open Lock for Spellcraft.
Mage's Disjunction: Negates the effects of magic items for 1d4 rounds instead of destroying them, and is centered on the caster in a 20 ft. radius burst.
Magic Mouth: Trigger range of Close.
Mage's Magnificent Mansion: Doesn't allow you to bar creatures from entering, should they discover the portal.
Polymorph: Takes a full round and provokes attacks of opportunity, increase to 5th-level.
Polymorph Any Object: Does not exist.
Protection from X: Grants a +4 bonus on saves against possession/charm/compulsion etc. instead of immunity. Summoned creatures must make a Will save with a +10 DC to attack.
Ray of Enfeeblement/Exhaustion/Energy Drain/etc.: Allows a Fortitude save to negate.
Rope Trick: Increase to 5th-level.
Statue: Returning to normal state uses a standard action.
Shapechange: Takes a full round and provokes attacks of opportunities, does not grant supernatural/spell-like abilities.
Sleep, Greater: 4th level spell added, as sleep, but with no limit to HD and affecting a single creature. (Hey, Beholders get it, why not the rest of us?)
Solid Fog: Halves movement speed, rather than reducing it to 5 ft.
Time Stop: Only allows you to cast spells within your personal bubble.
True Strike: Increased to 3rd level.
Wall of Force/Forcecage: Subect to Dispel Magic, albeit at a +10 DC.
Foresight: Duration of 1 min./level.
Wail of the Banshee: Centered on you and allows a Will save if it is higher.
Wind Wall: Range of Close and 10 ft./two levels long and 5 ft./two levels high. Same deal for Wall of Force/etc. Magical projectiles have a 50% chance of being deflected.
Cleric/Druid
Blasphemy/Holy Word: Allows a Will save.
Dispel Evil/etc.: Allows a Will save for Outsiders to resist being banished.
Elemental Swarm: Allows you to summon 2d4 Large elementals, 1d4 Huge elementals, or 1 greater elemental and lasts 1 min./level.
Entropic Shield: Arrows, rays, and other ranged attacks have a 20% miss chance instead of automatically missing.
Magic Circle against X: Increased to 4th level.
Protection from X: Grants a +4 bonus on saves against possession/charm/compulsion etc. instead of immunity. Summoned creatures must make a Will save with a +10 DC

Elfin
2009-09-05, 08:07 PM
But casters still own the game. The problem isn't that fighters need to do more damage; good builds can dish out tons of it. The problem is that all a wizard needs to do to win is put up Solid Fog and watch the fireworks.
And wind wall still makes archery obsolete.

olentu
2009-09-05, 08:12 PM
Ray of enfeeblement does not do damage it applies a penalty.

Jergmo
2009-09-05, 08:15 PM
But casters still own the game. The problem isn't that fighters need to do more damage; good builds can dish out tons of it. The problem is that all a wizard needs to do to win is put up Solid Fog and watch the fireworks.
And wind wall still makes archery obsolete.

So, contribute ideas as to how this can be fixed a little, rather than just bring up the same old complains?

Edit:

Solid Fog: Opposing spellcaster casts Gust of Wind, or Wind Wall, or they step out of it, and if they're close to the caster, the caster is slowed as well.

Wind Wall: Same level as Dispel Magic, and you don't have to shoot arrows at the wizard's front like a buffoon.

Edit Edit: Also, who says your opponents have to sit around fighting while letting your area of effect spells and buffs work? The DM should have your opponents act intelligently if they've got the scores - guerilla tactics were invented for a reason.


Ray of enfeeblement does not do damage it applies a penalty.

I'm not RAW Nazi. A penalty is a penalty, whether it's damage or not.

Elfin
2009-09-05, 08:18 PM
That seems uncalled for. :smallconfused:

My opinions about Wind Wall and Solid Fog- the former should grant a miss chance against projectiles instead of blocking them automatically (much like your Entropic Shield fix), and the latter should grant a miss chance+ make an area act like difficult terrain.

shadow_archmagi
2009-09-05, 08:20 PM
This is hilariously incorrect,

I'd suggest that we try running a party of four wizards through a series of adventures, at varying levels and with various themes, except I'm pretty sure this forum already did that at some point.

I think I may have been a part of it before I got myself killed (it was my first time as a PC, if I recall correctly).

SparkMandriller
2009-09-05, 08:21 PM
You kinda made energy drain completely pointless there bro.

Jergmo
2009-09-05, 08:22 PM
That seems uncalled for. :smallconfused:

My opinions about Wind Wall and Solid Fog- the former should grant a miss chance against projectiles instead of blocking them automatically (much like your Entropic Shield fix), and the latter should grant a miss chance+ make an area act like difficult terrain.

(Sorry if that seemed rude). I agree with you on the latter, however, for the former it doesn't make sense. It isn't a little wall of force that you have to penetrate - it's a wall of rushing air that deflects projectiles.


You kinda made energy drain completely pointless there bro.

Debuff your opponent first with other spells, and then use it, or use it on an enemy spellcaster.


I'd suggest that we try running a party of four wizards through a series of adventures, at varying levels and with various themes, except I'm pretty sure this forum already did that at some point.

I think I may have been a part of it before I got myself killed (it was my first time as a PC, if I recall correctly).

It'd be cool if we can get that organized.

olentu
2009-09-05, 08:25 PM
So, contribute ideas as to how this can be fixed a little, rather than just bring up the same old complains?



I'm not RAW Nazi. A penalty is a penalty, whether it's damage or not.

I was assuming that correctly phrased houserules would help people make accurate comments as the comments would be based on accurate information. Then there is the fact that even without this change ray of enfeeblement could not drop strength below one.

Jergmo
2009-09-05, 08:28 PM
I was assuming that correctly phrased houserules would help people make accurate comments as the comments would be based on accurate information. Then there is the fact that even without this change ray of enfeeblement could not drop strength below one.

Ah, but if you combined it with another spell, it could - with this, the purpose is to make it so you cannot combine spells to do that. There is only a base that you can reduce it to.

Elfin
2009-09-05, 08:29 PM
(Sorry if that seemed rude). I agree with you on the latter, however, for the former it doesn't make sense. It isn't a little wall of force that you have to penetrate - it's a wall of rushing air that deflects projectiles.

Hmm...how about it blocks all nonmagical projectiles, but against magical ammunition it just has a miss chance? Or DR?

Zipding
2009-09-05, 08:32 PM
It doesn't matter what bonus damage the fighter does, he will never win against a high level wizard, simply put, a level 20 wizard will turn the fighter into mincemeat. Time Stop, Dimensional Anchor, Forcecage, Cloudkill. It doesn't matter what the fighter's Fort save is, he cannot escape the Forcecage at all and is subject to death by Cloudkill

SparkMandriller
2009-09-05, 08:32 PM
Debuff your opponent first with other spells, and then use it, or use it on an enemy spellcaster.

Still worthless. Why would I waste a level 9 slot on a save or be debuffed when I can get save or dies in much lower ones?

Hat-Trick
2009-09-05, 08:32 PM
Hmm...how about it blocks all nonmagical projectiles, but against magical ammunition it just has a miss chance? Or DR?

+1 For this idea.

Jergmo
2009-09-05, 08:35 PM
It doesn't matter what bonus damage the fighter does, he will never win against a high level wizard, simply put, a level 20 wizard will turn the fighter into mincemeat. Time Stop, Dimensional Anchor, Forcecage, Cloudkill. It doesn't matter what the fighter's Fort save is, he cannot escape the Forcecage at all and is subject to death by Cloudkill

With this change, the wizard cannot do that. It can only cast spells at its feet and spells that affect itself - it turns the spell, for the most part, into what it was designed to be for - giving the wizard time to cast personal buffs.


Still worthless. Why would I waste a level 9 slot on a save or be debuffed when I can get save or dies in much lower ones?

Feel free not to. :smallsmile:

Jergmo
2009-09-05, 08:37 PM
Hmm...how about it blocks all nonmagical projectiles, but against magical ammunition it just has a miss chance? Or DR?

Miss chance works. Same as Entropic Armor, or should it be higher?

SparkMandriller
2009-09-05, 08:38 PM
Feel free not to. :smallsmile:

I don't think making spells pointless really improves the game all that much. :/

olentu
2009-09-05, 08:38 PM
Ah, but if you combined it with another spell, it could - with this, the purpose is to make it so you cannot combine spells to do that. There is only a base that you can reduce it to.

That is not really my point. My point was that if one means that all spells that directly reduce ability scores can not reduce said scores below three it should probably actually say that so that people do not have to guess.

Jergmo
2009-09-05, 08:39 PM
That is not really my point. My point was that if one means that all spells that directly reduce ability scores can not reduce said scores below three it should probably actually say that so that people do not have to guess.

Okay, then I'll change it.

Elfin
2009-09-05, 08:40 PM
Miss chance works. Same as Entropic Armor, or should it be higher?

Higher, I'd say.

Jergmo
2009-09-05, 08:43 PM
Higher, I'd say.

Changed it to 50%, hopefully that's good. Also, on the Solid Fog deal...instead of 5 ft./round, it should probably halve their movement speed.

Elfin
2009-09-05, 08:45 PM
Yea, that's what I was thinking.

Jergmo
2009-09-05, 08:47 PM
Alright, cool. So far I've only looked into the spells that The Logic Ninja has put on the Stinky Cheese list, and some others on another list; I haven't looked much outside of Core, so if there are any smelly spells in other common sourcebooks, please bring them up.

Milskidasith
2009-09-05, 08:47 PM
Your balance changes are pretty bleh... for example, your change to disjunction makes it weaker than an area dispel (which there aren't any) that can't even be aimed, Holy Word and the like are now terrible for 7th level spells (requiring more HD than the enemy and allowing a will save? There are save or dies that don't need you to find a way to buff your CL up by +10), and, in general, your changes don't do much to actually alleviate the problems with balance, I.E. Wizard's can't be hit.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-05, 08:50 PM
Penalties From Damage


Congratulations, you've just made melee characters the worst possible option. No one is going to play a melee character when those types of penalties are going to be popping up every encounter (it isn't uncommon for a tank to get knocked into unconscious status). Oh, and this does nothing to casters, who (if played right) will never take damage.
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General Changes
Armor As Damage Reduction is implemented: Full AC as normal, with half damage reduction. In cases such as a breastplate or studded leather, round down. IE: AC +5 = DR 2/-. Natural armor also applies.

That option is widely regarded as crap compared to normal AC. You get hit more often, and the DR doesn't make up for it.


Archer cap added to misc. equipment. Cost: 5 sp. Effect: +1 attack roll with ranged weapons, additional -1 penalty to Spot checks while in combat.

Doesn't make sense.


Falchion deals 2d6 instead of 2d4. Khopesh added, deals 1d8. 18-20 x2 crit range.

And now the Greatsword is completely worthless compared to the Falchion. Not that this wasn't the case all ready, but oh well. And the Khopesh is in Sandstorm.


The Spell Point system is in effect. The spell point cost of a spell is changed to (spell level x spell level /2, round up).

You implement one of the most broken options ever printed, and then nerf it? I'd just tell everyone playing a caster that they now have to play a Psionic character (and ban the hell out of the Erudite). But this option is horrible, especially for partial casters like Bards.


Blackguard
Base Attack Bonus requirement lowered to +4. (I don't even know what all I'll do with this poor class.

Take a look at the Shadowbane Inquisitor. That's a fairly decent idea of what to do with the Blackguard (turn it into a Rogue/Paladin dualclass PrC).


Cleric
A cleric may choose between being a battle cleric or a full spellcaster. If a cleric chooses to become a full spellcaster, they gain the Spell Point pool of a sorcerer as well as a sorcerer's armor and weapon proficiencies and hit die progression. Battle clerics gain proficiency in their deity's favored weapon and clerics with the War domain gain proficiency with all martial weapons.

Thank you for making the Cleric more broken than it all ready was.


Druid
Druids may sacrifice the ability to gain an animal companion in favor of gaining one of the following domains: Plant, Animal, Earth, Fire, Water, Air, Weather.

Druids in animal form retain their base attributes and lose their physical racial attributes while in animal form. (Goodbye, dump stats)

Doesn't solve the problem, it just improves their MAD. They can still turn into a T-Rex, a Fleshraker, or any number of other creatures.


Duelist
Base Attack Bonus requirement reduced to +5.
Canny Defense: Remove the "per duelist class level" part.
Precise Strike: Changed to first level. +2d6 at level 3, +3d6 at level 5, +4d6 at level 7, and +5d6 at level 9.

So now the class is a level long? Thanks!


Dwarven Defender
Base Attack Bonus requirement reduced to +5. (Again, don't know what all I'm going to do with this)

Change to Deepstone Sentinel, in Tome of Battle.


Eldtritch Knight
At first level, an Eldtritch Knight gains Armored mage (light). This increases to Armored mage (medium) at level 8. Requires ability to cast 2nd-level arcane spells and +3 BAB.


Not complaining about this. It needs class features.


Fighter
Bravery (Ex): Starting at 2nd level, a fighter gains a +1 bonus on Will saves against fear. This bonus increases by +1 for every four levels beyond 2nd, to a maximum of +5 at 18th level.
Weapon Expertise (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons (Axes, heavy blades, light blades, bows, close quarters, crossbows, double weapons, flails, bludgeoning weapons, pole arms, spears, or thrown). Whenever the fighter attacks with a weapon from this group, it gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls. Every four levels after, the bonus increases by +1 and the fighter can choose a new weapon group. (Little bonuses from Pathfinder)

You've completely failed to address the problems the Fighter has (something that requires 400 pages of text and a ton of reworking). Instead, you chose to take the easy way out, and just put them higher on the Random Number Generation. Now, they never miss a damn attack. They still have crappy Will saves too.



Monks
Body Manipulation: At 8th level, the monk further masters his physique and gains the ability to boost his physical statistics, gaining a +2 bonus to Str, Dex, and Con once per day for a number of rounds equal to 3+ wisdom modifier.
Body Control (Ex): At third level, +2 bonus on saving throws against spells and effects from the school of Transmutation, since his studies and introspection give him insights into and better control over his body.
At 5th level, the monk gains the ability to remove fatigue or reduce exhaustion to fatigue 1/day.

Ikk. This isn't even a fix, so much as a random patch. Doesn't solve the problems with the Monk.


Rangers
Ranger level for determining animal companion is level -3 rather than 1/2 level.

Nothing wrong with this.


Rogue
Rogues can use light shields and bucklers.

???? Not that Rogues need a boost, but this really doesn't mean much.


Shadowdancer
Lowered required ranks in Hide to 8. Dismissing a shadow does not incur an experience penalty. Shadow Illusion can be used at will. A shadowdancer's shadow companion starts with +2 HD.

There's a lot more wrong with this class than just what you've covered. Like lack of Sneak Attack progression and poor skills for a class that was designed for the Rogue, and the fact that their Dimension Door effect is vastly inferior to the Horizon Walker's version. Or the Warlock's.


Sorcerers
At first level, Sorcerers gain Eschew Materials and Force of Personality as bonus feats.
Add Diplomacy, Intimidate and Sense Motive to Class Skills List.
A familiar's bonuses are increased by PrC caster level increases.
A sorcerer can choose to learn any number of new arcane spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list in place of sorcerer spells he already knows, effectively exchanging them. All new spells learned in this way must be of the same level as the ones they replace. To do so, they must enter a state of meditation lasting eight hours without inerruption, succeeding on a Concentration check equal to 15 + highest spell level exchanged.
Innate Arcana (Ex): Sorcerers may their Charisma modifier rather than Intelligence for Knowledge(Arcana) and Spellcraft checks.
Improved Eschew Materials (Su): Starting at 5th level, the sorcerer can cast any sorcerer spell that has a material component or focus worth 100 gp or less without needing that component or focus. (Don't get me started, I've argued with several people about the spell changing thing)

Congratulations, the Sorcerer is... still Tier 2. Barely though, you've effectively given them a mass PsiReform every other level.


Wizards
A familiar's bonuses are increased by PrC caster level increases.
Specialist wizards do not ban schools; instead, spells from penalized schools have a cost equal to one spell level higher. 9th level spells for penalized schools cost 24 points.

And now the Wizard is the best class in the game, bar none.



Spells


And you've missed majorly on this one. Time Stop wasn't fixed at all (the 4E version is a better nerf, but still broken), you didn't touch Wish or Gate (a Will save? You seriously think the Wizard can't all ready boost the Save DC to the point where they still get the effect 90% of the time?), and Shapechange still acts like an Elephant in the room (it just sucks up bigger actions to use, though they can still just turn into a Choker and dominate the action economy anyway).

IMO, there's more bad than good here. It's like you listened to Jason when he was making Pathfinder, and took his words to heart (hint: BAD IDEA). You also left the Paladin untouched (one of the weaker classes in the PHB), and didn't even bother with the Bard (other than nerfing its spellcasting into oblivion).


In other words, most of this is fairly poor-quality.

Jergmo
2009-09-05, 08:50 PM
Your balance changes are pretty bleh... for example, your change to disjunction makes it weaker than an area dispel (which there aren't any) that can't even be aimed, Holy Word and the like are now terrible for 7th level spells (requiring more HD than the enemy and allowing a will save? There are save or dies that don't need you to find a way to buff your CL up by +10), and, in general, your changes don't do much to actually alleviate the problems with balance, I.E. Wizard's can't be hit.

...Okay, so, what changes would you suggest making? :smallsigh:

The Dark Fiddler
2009-09-05, 08:50 PM
The game? It doesn't need to be improved.


Because I lost The Game, and you lost The Game.

Sorry, horrible Will save.

Milskidasith
2009-09-05, 08:59 PM
...Okay, so, what changes would you suggest making? :smallsigh:

There really aren't any. D&D is a high magic system; rewriting all the spells to make Wizard's and such balanced just isn't going to happen. I mean, even the simplest spells like Color Spray outmatch melee classes (at low levels).

No matter how many changes you make, all you are doing is changing the order that spells get picked; Holy Word is now along the lines of "preparing a CLW in my ninth level slot as a standard cleric" in terms of usefulness, so they just pick, say, Symbol of Stunning (well, cast it on an item at the beginning of the day, anyway.)

Until you recognize that it would be easier to pick up an entirely new system than it would be to balance all of D&Ds save or dies compared to "hope the barbarian doesn't hit or be killed/gravely injured if he rolls badly", there really isn't much else advice to give.

Jergmo
2009-09-05, 09:03 PM
@ Sinfire Titan

2) No, you have the same AC as before.

3) Yes, it does. Such hats existed, and were used by light-armored archers and hunters. The point of the hat in your line of vision would help with focusing your sights.

5) No, I made the spell point cost increase quadratically, just like spell power does. And partial spellcasters only get up to 4th level spells, meaning they never deal with the really high spell point cost/powerful spells.

7) How's that, exactly? Giving them the choice between being a squishy clothie like a wizard for more spell points? Or giving them a single martial weapon in almost all cases? Uh-huh... (and that's even assuming their deity's favored weapon is a Martial weapon)

Blah...

On fighter changes: I'm not saying that fixes everything, those are just a couple things I was thinking of implemented. Like I said, the purpose is to compile ideas.

Same thing for Monks...

On rogues: I know, but I felt it made sense. Older edition rogues got light shields, why not 3.5? Besides, one of the potential uses of rogue is the "fast-talking swordsman", and I thought maybe it should have the option of a shield.

On wizards: Whoops, I shoulda taken out that 24 points part. Anyway, with the quadratic increase of spell point cost, specialist wizards are still suffering. Besides, it makes no sense whatsoever that the schools are banned.

{Scrubbed}

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-05, 09:09 PM
There really aren't any. D&D is a high magic system; rewriting all the spells to make Wizard's and such balanced just isn't going to happen. I mean, even the simplest spells like Color Spray outmatch melee classes (at low levels).

No matter how many changes you make, all you are doing is changing the order that spells get picked; Holy Word is now along the lines of "preparing a CLW in my ninth level slot as a standard cleric" in terms of usefulness, so they just pick, say, Symbol of Stunning (well, cast it on an item at the beginning of the day, anyway.)

Until you recognize that it would be easier to pick up an entirely new system than it would be to balance all of D&Ds save or dies compared to "hope the barbarian doesn't hit or be killed/gravely injured if he rolls badly", there really isn't much else advice to give.

Or just make a new game system yourself. But I agree. Not even doubling the cost of a spell is going to prevent the full casters from dominating. You've effectively halved their spells/day, and a Wizard can function just fine on that many spells (he just has to rest every so often).

You also neglected one of the biggest problems with 3.5: Bonus spells/day. Here's the thing; most people don't see it as unbalanced, but it actually is one of the biggest gaps that separates Casters from Noncasters. Everyone sees the chart in the Core rules, and assumes that this is balanced because it applies to all casters equally. But it isn't, and its a massive Elephant here.

See for yourself.

Essentially, every single bonus spell the Wizard gets for a high Int is an extra resource/day, but it's something a bit more significant than that. Each spell does something different, turning a single bonus spell into a new type of action entirely. A Wizard who gets 10 bonus spells per day is getting 10 additional types of actions.

It goes without saying that this is far better than bonuses to attack or hide. If the Wizard is effectively getting a variant on Magic Missile for every single bonus spell, the Fighter's equivalent would be a variant of Disarm. The Rogue's would be new applications for Hide/MS/DD/Sneak Attack.

I think we all understand that bonuses to attacks are not equal to bonus spells on at least a subconscious level; I'm just bringing it into the limelight here. The Wizard is getting more options with every few points of Int, so the solution is to give the noncasters similar benefits. Bonuses to attack rolls doesn't cut it. It's just not the same thing. Its a bonus compared to an entire option, be it in combat or out of it. Comparing a +4 bonus to an additional use of Scry each day is asinine.


God this is huge. You never really even think about how huge it is until you look at it like +4 to hit vs Scry.

Jergmo
2009-09-05, 09:12 PM
Or just make a new game system yourself. But I agree. Not even doubling the cost of a spell is going to prevent the full casters from dominating. You've effectively halved their spells/day, and a Wizard can function just fine on that many spells (he just has to rest every so often).

You also neglected one of the biggest problems with 3.5: Bonus spells/day. Here's the thing; most people don't see it as unbalanced, but it actually is one of the biggest gaps that separates Casters from Noncasters. Everyone sees the chart in the Core rules, and assumes that this is balanced because it applies to all casters equally. But it isn't, and its a massive Elephant here.

See for yourself.

The Spell Point system already has stuff for bonus spell points based on attribute bonuses, and also, the 5 minute workday shouldn't be allowed. There are such things as wandering monsters, and if a wizard uses all of its spells and then makes the party sit around so it can rest, and there isn't a risk of being ambushed, the DM is doing it wrong. Also, the DM is doing it wrong if he/she allows that time to be their time sleeping.

Milskidasith
2009-09-05, 09:16 PM
The Spell Point system already has stuff for bonus spell points based on attribute bonuses, and also, the 5 minute workday shouldn't be allowed. There are such things as wandering monsters, and if a wizard uses all of its spells and then makes the party sit around so it can rest, and there isn't a risk of being ambushed, the DM is doing it wrong. Also, the DM is doing it wrong if he/she allows that time to be their time sleeping.

Saying things such as "The DM is doing it wrong" is not a good way to do things.

Anyway, wandering monsters are worthless. Rope Trick. Boom. Yet another spell you have to fix.

Jergmo
2009-09-05, 09:18 PM
Saying things such as "The DM is doing it wrong" is not a good way to do things.

Anyway, wandering monsters are worthless. Rope Trick. Boom. Yet another spell you have to fix.

Already have. And it isn't when it's true. It's not always the game's fault.

Milskidasith
2009-09-05, 09:22 PM
{scrubbed}

Jergmo
2009-09-05, 09:24 PM
{scrubbed}

I'm just saying, someone doesn't have room to complain if they're contributing to the problem. You wanna do it that way, you can, but you have to accept that you're reinforcing the problems with the game.

Milskidasith
2009-09-05, 09:25 PM
I'm just saying, someone doesn't have room to complain if they're contributing to the problem. You wanna do it that way, you can, but you have to accept that you're reinforcing the problems with the game.

First of all, it's only a problem if you consider it a problem. 3.5 is fun to play, if inbalanced. A wizard can just play down, or you can agree not to play wizards. Your attempts to make the fix the problem don't do anything, so you are only aggravating the problem; if you introduce all these rules to make casters seem weaker, they only seem stronger because they need so many and are still 100% invincible.


Also, Rope Trick being changed to 5th level does not affect anything. That's exactly my point. As long as Rope Trick even exists, at all, Wizards will never get ambushed during their sleep. However, a melee class can easily be slaughtered by a CDG delivered by somebody who has a very high move silently modifier.

Jergmo
2009-09-05, 09:28 PM
First of all, it's only a problem if you consider it a problem. 3.5 is fun to play, if inbalanced. A wizard can just play down, or you can agree not to play wizards. Your attempts to make the fix the problem don't do anything, so you are only aggravating the problem; if you introduce all these rules to make casters seem weaker, they only seem stronger because they need so many and are still 100% invincible.


Also, Rope Trick being changed to 5th level does not affect anything. That's exactly my point. As long as Rope Trick even exists, at all, Wizards will never get ambushed during their sleep. However, a melee class can easily be slaughtered by a CDG delivered by somebody who has a very high move silently modifier.

Higher point cost means less spells. And if you don't think it's a problem, then why are you here? This thread exists because plenty of people do think it's a problem.

Roland St. Jude
2009-09-05, 09:30 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please keep it civil in here.

Hat-Trick
2009-09-05, 09:31 PM
Trump card for Rope Trick. One caster able to cast dispel magic at +1 spell level and transdimensional spell. Boom. Wizard's on his 455 in the middle of a group of monsters.

I personally have no problem with a caster being the trump for another caster. Any fighter stupid enough to fight a wizard one on one is playing a INT 3 character, even if the sheet doesn't say it. The wizards (casters in general, in a way) trump each other, spelling and counterspelling to give their fellows a chance to do something. The fighters, rogues, rangers, monks, paladins, CW Samurai (something that I agree definitely needs fixing, it has nothing for itself), and the like duke it out with their counterparts.

Milskidasith
2009-09-05, 09:32 PM
Look, the higher point cost doesn't matter when you are casting rope trick, because you get to recover all of your spells/spell points. You completely ignored my point to point out that, yes, it costs a few more spell points. That doesn't change that it's, in fact, not going to matter because they can rest in total safety.

As for being a problem; it's only a problem if your players make it a problem, and it's an unfixable one if they do. You can easily play a non broken caster, but it's impossible to play a fighter at the same level a caster does. Your "fix" does little to change that.

EDIT: If casters have to be used to counter casters... then the fix isn't working, because it's supposed to make wizards and melee classes balanced.

SparkMandriller
2009-09-05, 09:36 PM
Trump card for Rope Trick. One caster able to cast dispel magic at +1 spell level and transdimensional spell. Boom. Wizard's on his 455 in the middle of a group of monsters.

You... frequently encounter enemies with who can see through invisibility and have transdimensional dispels prepared?

Jergmo
2009-09-05, 09:38 PM
I'm not trying to make it completely balanced, that's an exercise in futility. I'm just trying to address things that are commonly brought up and prevent "brokenness".

Hat-Trick
2009-09-05, 09:39 PM
You want to knock the wizard down a peg, they will.

I never said it would be common, but if they're impervious to everything in that little dimension, it should be a level 10 spell (therefore, not available until epic). they aren't. Throw an enemy caster at them and make them feel the burn a little.

Jergmo
2009-09-05, 09:40 PM
You... frequently encounter enemies with who can see through invisibility and have transdimensional dispels prepared?

Tucker's Paranoid Arcanists. "Comb the forest!"


You want to knock the wizard down a peg, they will.

I never said it would be common, but if they're impervious to everything in that little dimension, it should be a level 10 spell (therefore, not available until epic). they aren't. Throw an enemy caster at them and make them feel the burn a little.

I think the main problem with Rope Trick is that you are able to bring the only entrance up with you. That should have the effect of putting a portable hole in a bag of holding. :smallamused:

Milskidasith
2009-09-05, 09:41 PM
You aren't helping the brokenness any, and having to have very absurdly specific enemies to kill Wizard's in Rope Trick is a sign that it's not balanced. Any Wizard who could do that would kill any melee party member.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-05, 09:42 PM
EDIT: If casters have to be used to counter casters... then the fix isn't working, because it's supposed to make wizards and melee classes balanced.

All right, I've been agreeing with you up until this point, but I have to say something about this: No fix is going to bring full casters into the balanced territory. Not even the Beguiler, Warmage, and Dread Necromancer (two Tier 3's and a Tier 5) are completely balanced, as all three of them can outshine a noncaster easily.

Paizo realized this when they were making Pathfinder: Attempting to fix 3.5's casters to be balanced will do nothing but hurt profits the fix brings in and produce complaints from the fan boys who aren't in favor of nerfing casters. This is why the blatantly overlooked the errors with casters, ignoring all posts and only making minor tweaks to make it seem like they fixed things.

WotC also realized this. This is the reason they print intentionally broken material and then issue errata to prevent game breakers. They're never going to touch Orbizards because they aren't game-breakingly powerful yet, but you can bet your ass that when they do print something that breaks the Orbizard completely that they will errata it for the sake of putting up a front.

The only way to fix 3.5 is to ban the top two Tiers, and even that doesn't cover everything. Hell, it makes the problem worse, as everyone becomes underpowered if you ban the top two PrC Tiers (the +2 and +1 tiers, respectively).

The alternative is to make a new version that is a thinly veiled shout-out to 3.5, and call it something else entirely, then balance that to hell and back. This process takes months, or even years depending on how complex you want this system to be, or how many options you want your players to have.

Milskidasith
2009-09-05, 09:44 PM
All right, I've been agreeing with you up until this point, but I have to say something about this: No fix is going to bring full casters into the balanced territory. Not even the Beguiler, Warmage, and Dread Necromancer (two Tier 3's and a Tier 5) are completely balanced, as all three of them can outshine a noncaster easily.

Paizo realized this when they were making Pathfinder: Attempting to fix 3.5's casters to be balanced will do nothing but hurt profits the fix brings in and produce complaints from the fan boys who aren't in favor of nerfing casters. This is why the blatantly overlooked the errors with casters, ignoring all posts and only making minor tweaks to make it seem like they fixed things.

WotC also realized this. This is the reason they print intentionally broken material and then issue errata to prevent game breakers. They're never going to touch Orbizards because they aren't game-breakingly powerful yet, but you can bet your ass that when they do print something that breaks the Orbizard completely that they will errata it for the sake of putting up a front.

The only way to fix 3.5 is to ban the top two Tiers, and even that doesn't cover everything. Hell, it makes the problem worse, as everyone becomes underpowered if you ban the top two PrC Tiers (the +2 and +1 tiers, respectively).

The alternative is to make a new version that is a thinly veiled shout-out to 3.5, and call it something else entirely, then balance that to hell and back. This process takes months, or even years depending on how complex you want this system to be, or how many options you want your players to have.

I said earlier it would be impossible to balance them. We aren't disagreeing on anything. I'm just saying, as far as I can tell this was intended to make casters balanced with melee (an impossible task) or non broken (a nearly impossible task not helped by the fact the current changes don't actually do much).

Jergmo
2009-09-05, 09:45 PM
(a nearly impossible task not helped by the fact the current changes don't actually do much).

Right, so, contribute something or leave it be. You're continuing to just bring up the fact that the changes aren't sufficient when the entire point of this thread is to bounce ideas around to improve on it.

Speaking of which, the thread is completely derailed now. Whee.

Milskidasith
2009-09-05, 09:48 PM
Right, so, contribute something or leave it be. You're continuing to just bring up the fact that the changes aren't sufficient when the entire point of this thread is to bounce ideas around to improve on it.

Speaking of which, the thread is completely derailed now. Whee.

My point is that this is essentially pointless. To make casters non broken, you need to go around banning basically every save or die (because, with optimization, they hit more enemies more often than a melee character can), you'd need to ban a lot of PrCs, and change the way a lot of utility spells (Rope Trick) work, or completely remove them.

SparkMandriller
2009-09-05, 09:50 PM
Speaking of which, the thread is completely derailed now. Whee.

If you didn't want the thread to get destroyed you probably shouldn't have mentioned your belief that wizards aren't overpowered like three times in the first post. I mean what did you expect to happen?

Jergmo
2009-09-05, 09:50 PM
I'm...not even going to bother responding to that. It's not as if any progress is going to be made with this now.

SparkMandriller
2009-09-05, 09:52 PM
Gonna need a lot more perseverance than that if you're looking to fix 3.5 dude.

Milskidasith
2009-09-05, 09:54 PM
What do you want me to say? I can't explain how to keep Wizard's from being broken when you seem unwilling to accept even simple things like Color Spray are way more efficient than melee and that intentionally singling out the wizard with incredibly specialized monsters just to get rid of a one spell trick proves they are broken.

You don't seem to think that wizards are overpowered, and what changes you do have are essentially making broken spells cost a few more spell points or giving saves to spells that only even work because they don't have a save? I mean, a simple fix for Holy Word would be it uses your cleric level+any PrC levels that advance cleric casting, but instead you give it a save, making it a very, very costly to use Symbol of Stunning, and you think that making Rope Trick cost a few more spell points makes it balanced.

I can only state that this is a very difficult task and you are probably approaching it the wrong way, but if you don't agree, then there is nothing to do but wish you the best of luck.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-05, 09:56 PM
I said earlier it would be impossible to balance them. We aren't disagreeing on anything. I'm just saying, as far as I can tell this was intended to make casters balanced with melee (an impossible task) or non broken (a nearly impossible task not helped by the fact the current changes don't actually do much).

Ok, then I misread you. My apologies.

Jergmo
2009-09-05, 09:56 PM
To quote dear ol' Jack from As Good As It Gets, "I'm drowning, and you're describing the water!"

Milskidasith
2009-09-05, 10:00 PM
To use an analogy that works, let's say you have a guy who's sick with a bunch of different diseases (let's say the patient's name is David Neville Douglasson the third and a half). I'm telling you why he's sick and giving you a general idea of what to do to make him better, but also explaining how it's not an easy task and needs to be approached by entirely eradicating certain diseases, and you're giving him a few asprin and cutting off his pinky toes.

Jergmo
2009-09-05, 10:03 PM
I was just thinking it was more of an infection than a horrible disease. Poor Mr. Douglasson. :smalltongue:

Feh, I'll just get to work, I guess.

Kesnit
2009-09-06, 12:08 AM
Thank you for making the Cleric more broken than it all ready was.

How did the OP do that? The major issue with the Cleric is that they can buff, heal, and fight. The OP takes away either their ability to fight (by taking their armor and weapons profs) or their casting (which I assume was the idea, though the details on how that is done were left off).


Doesn't solve the problem, it just improves their MAD. They can still turn into a T-Rex, a Fleshraker, or any number of other creatures.

One major issue with Druids is they are SAD. All they need is WIS, since they take the STR, DEX, and CON from the creature they WS into. With this change, they can still turn into all those creatures, but they don't get the STR/DEX/CON increases. It is far from perfect (as they still have the animal companion and the special abilities of the WS form), but it forces them to spread out their attributes more and keeps their AB's in WS down, since they're stuck with their normal STR/DEX.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-06, 12:24 AM
How did the OP do that? The major issue with the Cleric is that they can buff, heal, and fight. The OP takes away either their ability to fight (by taking their armor and weapons profs) or their casting (which I assume was the idea, though the details on how that is done were left off).

Taking away....... what? They lose practically nothing (Divine Power). The Cloistered Cleric variant proved that armor and weapons profs mean nothing to a Cleric.

In exchange, he's giving them more spells per day. That's like putting a nickel into a change machine and getting a quarter back. You lose, what, 5 points of BAB, three "feats" that only matter if the DCFS is involved, and a class feature that can be recovered by dipping into PrC Pally. And you can get all of that and the extra spells by casting Divine Power. Note that the OP's spell changes completely overlooked the spell.



One major issue with Druids is they are SAD. All they need is WIS, since they take the STR, DEX, and CON from the creature they WS into. With this change, they can still turn into all those creatures, but they don't get the STR/DEX/CON increases. It is far from perfect (as they still have the animal companion and the special abilities of the WS form), but it forces them to spread out their attributes more and keeps their AB's in WS down, since they're stuck with their normal STR/DEX.

Or just cast Bite of the WereX spells to boost their stats to relevant levels, and just leave Str and Dex at 10. They maxed out Con anyway.

horseboy
2009-09-06, 01:23 AM
Until you recognize that it would be easier to pick up an entirely new system than it would be to balance all of D&Ds save or dies compared to "hope the barbarian doesn't hit or be killed/gravely injured if he rolls badly", there really isn't much else advice to give.
True this. If you want fighters to stay relevant past level 3 or so their weapons have to retain their save-or-die status. If you want to spit wad ideas, I'd say something like "If the attack does damage, then a fort save is rolled, the target number being 10+the total modified roll-target's AC or something. That way you still power attack some to make sure you get past their DR, but your "skill" with the weapon actually matters more. Of course, in order to get this to work you'd probably have to make it a blanket rule to help the other martials as well. Yeah, casters would still be more versatile, but martial would at least be able to do their job of killing things with pointy sticks.

Milskidasith
2009-09-06, 01:26 AM
Druids could also still benefit from the way it's currently worded, by the way. They can get a race that buffs wisdom and hurts a physical stat... and when they wildshape, they lose that racial modifier but keep the + wisdom. Not a bad trade, eh? If there's a +4 wis LA 0 race somewhere, it would be the perfect time to use it.

olentu
2009-09-06, 01:38 AM
Offering up the possibility of an anthropomorphic bat or perhaps toad seems more relevant then talking about language that I still think could be better. So there are some LA +0 races with bonus wis and penalties to strength and in the case of toad dexterity. Though one would have to take the charisma hit. Most of the other 1 HD anthropomorphic animals would work but have less of a wis boost.

Milskidasith
2009-09-06, 01:43 AM
So you could have an Antromorphic Bat and take no penalty on anything important by negating the penalties. Go RAW abuse!

Tyndmyr
2009-09-06, 11:03 AM
I'd suggest that we try running a party of four wizards through a series of adventures, at varying levels and with various themes, except I'm pretty sure this forum already did that at some point.

I think I may have been a part of it before I got myself killed (it was my first time as a PC, if I recall correctly).

If this idea hasn't already been done, I would gladly volunteer to participate in such a campaign.

kjones
2009-09-06, 01:36 PM
Other people have said this already, but I'd like to emphasize the point. There exist other systems besides D&D. If your primary goal is to balance non-magical characters with magical characters, D&D is not the system for you. Unless you're strongly married to D&D 3.5 for some reason, play something else. Without making any judgements as to its other merits, 4th edition D&D solves a lot of these balance issues.

Why get a dog and try to turn it into a cat when you can just get a cat? Square pegs, round holes, etc.

Doc Roc
2009-09-06, 01:55 PM
If you firmly believe that fighters are the equals of wizards, I invite you into my humble test of spite where we can attempt some tasty empirical testing. :) If you like, we can include in the test set your rules on top of the test of spite rules. I'd be delighted to offer such an opportunity.


Not a single champion of the fighter class has taken me up on this. You could be the first! Say what you will about Giacomo, he's at least put his money where his mouth is.

9mm
2009-09-06, 01:59 PM
Not a single champion of the fighter class has taken me up on this. You could be the first! Say what you will about Giacomo, he's at least put his money where his mouth is.
I (and by extention Slade and John) feel hurt...

(yes I'm ignoring they were orgionaly Generic Warriors)

SparkMandriller
2009-09-06, 01:59 PM
Unless you're strongly married to D&D 3.5 for some reason, play something else.

3.5=my waifu. Got a d20 hug pillow and everything. All eating meals with a DMG on the other side of the table and posting online about how real women are terrible.



(hot glue on minis)

nightwyrm
2009-09-06, 02:11 PM
3.5=my waifu. Got a d20 hug pillow and everything. All eating meals with a DMG on the other side of the table and posting online about how real women are terrible.



(hot glue on minis)

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f5/HangmenHeaven/Argue%20Disapprove/1246096134201.jpg

Yeah, I know it's silly and not completely accurate.

Doc Roc
2009-09-06, 02:21 PM
I (and by extention Slade and John) feel hurt...

(yes I'm ignoring they were orgionaly Generic Warriors)

Right, but you went in knowing what tier you were, and expecting pain with your glory.