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PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2009-09-06, 01:05 AM
The LA4 half-fiend template sounds steep... Would taking away these abilities render it LA3 or LA2?:
"# No additional attacks
# Natural armor boost
# Immunity poison.
# Resistance to acid 10, cold 10, electricity 10, and fire 10.
# Damage reduction: 5/magic (if HD 11 or less) or 10/magic (if HD 12 or more).
# A half-fiend’s natural weapons are treated as magic weapons for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction." "Smite Good (Su): Once per day the creature can make a normal melee attack to deal extra damage equal to its HD (maximum of +20) against a good foe.

Spell-Like Abilities: A half-fiend with an Intelligence or Wisdom score of 8 or higher has spell-like abilities depending on its Hit Dice, as indicated on the table below. The abilities are cumulative. Unless otherwise noted, an ability is usable once per day. Caster level equals the creature’s HD, and the save DC is Charisma-based.
HD Abilities
1–2 Darkness 3/day
3–4 Desecrate
5–6 Unholy blight
7–8 Poison 3/day
9–10 Contagion
11–12 Blasphemy
13–14 Unholy aura 3/day, unhallow
15–16 Horrid wilting
17–18 Summon monster IX (fiends only)
19–20 Destruction"

All I want to know is if this is balanced. Let me know if there are other suggestions for an LA3 or LA2 version of the template also.

Basically, is this pruned version worth LA2?:
Become an evil, native outsider
average maneuverability bat wings, fly at atleast your base land speed
Spell resistance = HD + 10 (maximum 35).
Str +4, Dex +4, Con +2, Int +4, Cha +2

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-06, 01:07 AM
LA 2 version. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fiendishCreature.htm)

Alternatively, Lesser Tiefling for a LA 0 fiendish humanoid.

PId6
2009-09-06, 01:22 AM
LA 2 version. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fiendishCreature.htm)
Ugh, that's just a terrible template.

Frankly, most LAs are greatly overvalued (and a few are undervalued; see Black Ethergaunt). It probably wouldn't be too strong at LA +3 even if you don't take away anything.

Glyde
2009-09-06, 01:25 AM
I gave my half-fiend a natural weapon, smite good, and 1 natural armor. *Shrug*

Course, the natural weapon was a Glabrezu claw

Mongoose87
2009-09-06, 01:26 AM
LA 2 version. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/fiendishCreature.htm)

Alternatively, Lesser Tiefling for a LA 0 fiendish humanoid.

That doesn't look worth +2 LA at all.

PId6
2009-09-06, 01:27 AM
That doesn't look worth +2 LA at all.
It's almost not worth LA +0, at least, not worth the effort of typing it up.

Mongoose87
2009-09-06, 01:35 AM
I hate DR/magic. Useless past the earliest levels.

Kylarra
2009-09-06, 01:38 AM
Rather than post the removals, post what remains of the template.


admittedly that's because I'm too tired/lazy to make a list and cross things off.

Grynning
2009-09-06, 10:24 AM
The best things about the half-fiend are its impressive ability score bonuses and its wings. The SR and the natural attacks are also pretty potent. These are the main things that will really make it better than someone playing an out of the box LA +0 race.

However, it really depends on the character the template is being applied to and what kind of game you're playing.

If the person who want to be a half-fiend is playing a tier 4 or below class (like a straight fighter or a monk or something) in a game that includes full casters, I'd say it's fine to allow as is - Stat bumps help but don't break non-casters and the flight is nothing that couldn't be replicated by a spell.

If everyone is playing around the same tier, I would say just give the half-fiend player fewer points to buy stats with and get rid of the 3 natural attacks and maybe the wings. If you're playing a game without full casters the wings will make the character shine, otherwise, meh. If the other characters aren't playing casters you may want to ditch the spell-likes as well.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2009-09-06, 11:18 AM
Rather than post the removals, post what remains of the template.


admittedly that's because I'm too tired/lazy to make a list and cross things off.I didn't do that specifically because I was going to remove these abilities on an already modified template (but its still non-homebrew :))

But the question could - less usefully, and more off-task be:
Become an evil, native outsider
average maneuverability bat wings, fly at atleast your base land speed
Spell resistance = HD + 10 (maximum 35).
Str +4, Dex +4, Con +2, Int +4, Cha +2

ericgrau
2009-09-06, 11:46 AM
Frankly, most LAs are greatly overvalued (and a few are undervalued; see Black Ethergaunt). It probably wouldn't be too strong at LA +3 even if you don't take away anything.

Monsters maybe, but templates tend to be stronger. In both cases you also need to consider the impact of monster special abilities when used optimally, not when used haphazardly. The LA assumes you make full use of a monster's unique abilities, which PCs might normally have difficulty getting access too.

Anyway I thought what the OP wants is exactly what a tiefling was supposed to be. Why not just use that? Or make up something halfway in between for LA +2.

PId6
2009-09-06, 10:51 PM
Monsters maybe, but templates tend to be stronger. In both cases you also need to consider the impact of monster special abilities when used optimally, not when used haphazardly. The LA assumes you make full use of a monster's unique abilities, which PCs might normally have difficulty getting access too.
Most templates aren't really that playable either in normal games (not so true with gestalt). There are a few very broken ones (Mineral Warrior, Lolth-Touched, etc) but the vast majority are either like Fiendish (total crap) or like Half-Fiend (decent in some cases, but usually not worth it).

And I really don't think LA follows much of a logical pattern at all. Can you think of any way to make full use of the Celestial template's (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/celestialCreature.htm) DR/magic, terrible SR, and weak energy resistance to make it worth LA+2? There are numerous examples like that one as well. And Planestouched are pretty weak for LA+1's, unless you're using Alter Self cheese.

herrhauptmann
2009-09-06, 11:03 PM
I personally think the half fiend/celestial templates would be playable as a LA +0 if you got rid of everything except the wings and level dependent abilities darkness/desecrate etc.
And gave it a good backstory/motivation.

ericgrau
2009-09-06, 11:22 PM
Half dragon is a commonly used strong template, just as an example. The fiendish/celestial ones seem to be set the way they are b/c of special abilities, so like monsters with special abilities the LA seems high unless you know how to best use the abilities.

PId6
2009-09-06, 11:47 PM
Half dragon is decent for classes without too many/good class features (i.e. fighters), but LA just can't compare if you're actually playing a good class/multiclassing out/taking PrCs. Generally you can always build a stronger character using a good LA+0 race than you can with LA, barring extremely broken races/templates like ones listed above. Class features are just better than what LA can offer.

And Fiendish/Celestial Creature have no special abilities worth using. 1/day subpar Smite attack is pretty much completely useless. Darkvision 60 isn't anything LA+0 races can't have. DR/magic is worthless past level 4. Weak energy resistance can easily be gotten via cheap magic items or spells. And the spell resistance is almost completely ineffective against any casters that are remotely level-appropriate. What other abilities are you referring to? Making Int at least 3?

ericgrau
2009-09-07, 12:22 AM
Well I'd compare core templates to core classes and non-core templates to non-core classes, to be fair.

You get 48k in energy resistances, plus that'd take 4 rings slots. And more types than allowed by spells. Good SR worth 10k per level starting at level 3. Wings are worth 17k-54k. And don't pretend everyone doesn't always harp about flight. Total: 65k-102k + 10k per level, not counting DR against many monsters and minor stuff. Up to 1/3rd of your level 20 WBL, and more than all your WBL for most levels. So, practically speaking, it's hard to get elsewhere; no one would bother spending that much of their money on it before epic levels. Plus the stats are already worth LA +2.

PId6
2009-09-07, 01:02 AM
With core melee classes, fine, I'll agree there that LA might be worth it if the templates are good, especially since the classes are terrible (barbarian not as much) and there aren't many PrC options. Step out of core though, and there's no question there.

Potion of Resist Energy is 300 gp. And you can always ask your wizard friend to buff you if you're facing the energy type that much. As for fly, I'll grant you that it's good, but you can get the same from dragonborn and raptorian if you want it that much, not to mention the wizard friend and potions/UMD scrolls. In non-core, class abilities+feats (and everything else from levels, like BAB/skills/HD) are just better.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2009-09-07, 08:35 AM
Thanks for the interest guys, but the OP was a fairly simple question. I understand the nature of templates, I only wanted reinforcement to my conclusions. Keep in mind I will be using the LA buyoff so I'm going to hit ECL20 either way.

All I want to know is if this is worth LA2 (like I think) or LA3 (Also possible)?
1. Become an evil: [This is bad. Like alot. I hate playing evil characters, but I can stomache LE.]
2. Native outsider [This is good. However I don't won't use the proficiencies, etc]
3. Average maneuverability bat wings, fly at atleast your base land speed [This is slightly useful because its natural, but your bat wings sort of scream evil... So its not like you can party with anyone remotely good... Also getting flight is really easy, since I play outside core]
4. Spell resistance = HD + 10 (maximum 35) [This is kinda nice, but its not gonna stop anyone focused on getting you. It will only help when you don't need it, for weak casters. But hey, its better than nothing.]
5. Str +4, Dex +4, Con +2, Int +4, Cha +2 [This is nice. Not loth-touched nice since the gains are not focused, but still decent.]

Cyclocone
2009-09-07, 09:19 AM
Compare it to the Fiend-Blooded (it's a Sorc PrC from Heroes of Horror)

It loses one level of casting and gives (IIRC):
+2 str/dex/con/int
+1 cha.
+1 NA
resist 5 cold/fire/acid/electricity
Imunity to poison

and yet these are not the class abilities that make it worth taking (and you can avoid CL loss entirely by only taking 9 levels in the class.)

What you list:
1. Become an evil: [This is bad. Like alot. I hate playing evil characters, but I can stomache LE.] This one doesn't matter CR wise.
2. Native outsider [This is good. However I don't won't use the proficiencies, etc] This allows Alter Self cheese, but if you're not a caster and you already have wings?
3. Average maneuverability bat wings, fly at atleast your base land speed [This is slightly useful because its natural, but your bat wings sort of scream evil... So its not like you can party with anyone remotely good... Also getting flight is really easy, since I play outside core] "Winged" template is LA +1 i belive
4. Spell resistance = HD + 10 (maximum 35) [This is kinda nice, but its not gonna stop anyone focused on getting you. It will only help when you don't need it, for weak casters. But hey, its better than nothing.] SR sucks, period.
5. Str +4, Dex +4, Con +2, Int +4, Cha +2, Natural armor +1 (stacking) [This is nice. Not loth-touched nice since the gains are not focused, but still decent.] Depends on your build really. If you're a wizard, +4 Int is very good, and I would make the template +3, easily. If you're a fighter, the stat boosts still won't save you at higher levels, and the LA will ensure you suck at lower levels. However, the extra Dex and Int could be a godsend in helping you to qualify for various feats despite your MAD.

So +2 LA overall wouldn't be too low for a fighter type (IMO), and +3 would be a b!tch to buy off*. If you let Lolth touch you and get your mineral on you end up with way better physical stats (and DR, and Burrow, and Fear-Immunity...) for +2 LA, and it really isn't too broken because of the mental penalties.
But that's just my oppinion, YMMW (or, more specifically, your DM's may)

*Note: I'm assuming LA-buyoff is allowed. Otherwise, just stay away from templates.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2009-09-08, 02:09 PM
Okay... so 1 vote for LA2.

Do I hear any more? Anyone for LA3?