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oxinabox
2009-09-06, 08:41 AM
Have you even came up with a totally legal plan only to have the dm say that it's broken?
Eg something that site outside of the box.
has a counter example thats clearly legit.

For example:
Example:
Soulbow who rerolles every miss. (every arrow is lucky)
Counter
Fireball- half damage on a save, and even halved will still do more damage than the arrows.
Diffence:
It's magic

Warblade stays up all night, then gathers his metal resources and Iron Heart Surges away the fatigue.
Counter:
Elan spends 1 powerpoint, and can go without food or drink folr 24 hours.
Differnece:
It's Psionic.

what have you had?

Eloel
2009-09-06, 08:48 AM
Soulbow that rerolls every miss is broken. There are things worse, but Fireball is NOT one of them. You're targeting REFLEX save. Nothing good can come of it.

Also, if a Warblade uses his IHS for fatigue regularly, he's not very smart. He can just shut off the entire sun, or deities with it. (That deity looked at me, it affects me, IRON HEART SURGE!)

Kurald Galain
2009-09-06, 08:49 AM
Warlocks.

It's surprising how many people find those at-will abilities to be overpowered.

kamikasei
2009-09-06, 08:53 AM
Have you even came up with a totally legal plan only to have the dm say that it's broken?

"Legal" and "broken" are not antonyms.

oxinabox
2009-09-06, 08:55 AM
"Legal" and "broken" are not antonyms.
Very true.

Rerolling every miss once itn'ts broken. it's very powerfull, but not broken when some unoptimised things can do better.

Rerolling every miss reroll is.


Warlocks are totally unbroken.
Especially there involkations, they are perfectly fine.
the most broken thing about them is Take10 on use Wand.
Means that with 10 ranks in UMD, you can go out and pick up any wandand cast with it, no failure chance.
But thats not broken.
Not since warlocks get less Invocation than they do lvls,

Lets not get into a discusion of Iron Heart Surging the Sun
Fatigue is lablend in the DMG as a condition, IHS ends conditions, that was the intent.
The ending things that weren't specially labled as conditions was so exotic sourcebooks that do conditions without calling them conditions could be counted.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-06, 09:57 AM
Soulbow who rerolles every miss. (every arrow is lucky)
If you allow melee abilities on ammunition you also have to allow spellstoring ... spellstoring weapons have to be wielded which limits the abuse, but drawing from a stack of spellstoring arrows with vampiric touch for your melee attacks still gets a bit broken.

The damage the soulbow does with this trick might not be broken in and of itself, but the trick opens up other abuses.

Kylarra
2009-09-06, 10:05 AM
If you allow melee abilities on ammunition you also have to allow spellstoring ... spellstoring weapons have to be wielded which limits the abuse, but drawing from a stack of spellstoring arrows with vampiric touch for your melee attacks still gets a bit broken.

The damage the soulbow does with this trick might not be broken in and of itself, but the trick opens up other abuses.
Actually it doesn't since lucky is explicitly written on the Soulbow's list of possible enchantments, trumping the general rule that it is a melee enchantment, whereas you have no specific rule citing that you can enchant spellstoring onto ranged weapons to refer to.

oxinabox
2009-09-06, 10:08 AM
Actually it doesn't since lucky is explicitly written on the Soulbow's list of possible enchantments, trumping the general rule that it is a melee enchantment, whereas you have no specific rule citing that you can enchant spellstoring onto ranged weapons to refer to.
precisily what i was about to say

woodenbandman
2009-09-06, 10:50 AM
Soulbow: Better than other archers, but worse than wizards. Just because it's the best possible choice (which it really isn't, there are better choices for an archer) doesn't make it broken. Just because it's broken doesn't make it the best possible choice either (Polymorph is broken, but shapechange is better).

FMArthur
2009-09-06, 11:09 AM
Has anyone else ever had a class banned from use after outshining a hugely incompetent player of a similar class? It's happened a lot in one of my groups. Some examples:

Rogue/Chameleon > Mystic Theurge
Psion > Wizard
Warlock > Wizard
Factotum > Rogue
Swordsage > sword 'n board RANGER

This is all within one group. The warlock > wizard argument was particularly distressing; the party wizard only played blaster, and was so bad at it that a warlock was outdamaging him.

woodenbandman
2009-09-06, 11:21 AM
In a roundabout way I had tome of battle banned because I was DMing a game where the NPC Ruby Knight Vindicator was outshining an Incarnate of Good. Not only was that bad DMing on my part, but it was also a bad build for what the incarnate was trying to accomplish (We'd both built tank characters, and my tank had low AC and Iron Guard's Glare + Faith Unswerving, so most enemies targeted her. The Incarnate had an AC of like 30 at level 6, and did little damage, so nobody gave a crap). That player was the DM of another game I play in and now believes ToB is wildly overpowered, and nobody will believe me that it's not despite me being BY FAR the best optimizer in the group. And yet they insist on arguing with me when I say something optimization related.

ericgrau
2009-09-06, 11:22 AM
On archers: 11th-12th level ish archer, around when a fireball hits 10d6 (35 avg or 17.5 half), with a composite bow using a reasonable portion of his WBL usually does about 1d8 + (1d6-2d6) + 3 damage per arrow, or an average of 11-14.5 each. Add rapid shot and boots of speed for 5 attacks. Fireball only wins against enough clustered targets or a very high AC, and I imagine a soulbow would negate a big chunk of the AC problem. Hitting 3/4 of the time instead of 1/2 would bump damage up from ~33 per round to ~50. If half the baddies make their reflex save vs. the fireball, that'd be 26 avg against multiple targets. Or 42 avg with a single target scorching ray, minus a little for misses b/c some things do have an ok touch AC. Both fireball and scorching ray are doable a limited number of times per day, unlike the arrows.

Also the fact that fireball targets a reflex save has absolutely nothing to do with how good a fireball is or isn't. Reflex is the most common low save in D&D, and the fireball still does half damage on a successful save.

Back on topic: Something I may have mentioned before is that a DM in my current group thinks monks are wildly overpowered, due to many things including early improved evasion and SR, and bans them. I'm not on either side of the fence, but I find his comments an amusing contrast to these boards.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2009-09-06, 11:39 AM
Warlocks.

It's surprising how many people find those at-will abilities to be overpowered.

Agreed. They are (Sp); which means they are basically spells. Golems? Anti-magic fields? Spell resistance? yeah. All of that can basically ignore eldritch blast.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2009-09-06, 11:44 AM
Very true.

Rerolling every miss once itn'ts broken. it's very powerfull, but not broken when some unoptimised things can do better.

Rerolling every miss reroll is.


Warlocks are totally unbroken.
Especially there involkations, they are perfectly fine.
the most broken thing about them is Take10 on use Wand.
Means that with 10 ranks in UMD, you can go out and pick up any wandand cast with it, no failure chance.
But thats not broken.
Not since warlocks get less Invocation than they do lvls,

Lets not get into a discusion of Iron Heart Surging the Sun
Fatigue is lablend in the DMG as a condition, IHS ends conditions, that was the intent.
The ending things that weren't specially labled as conditions was so exotic sourcebooks that do conditions without calling them conditions could be counted.

IHS was meant to be used within reason. Using it to overcome fatigue from resting in heavy armor is kinda.. well, lame. True that it can be used for that, and it only takes a swifty to re-charge the mechanic. It is meant to stave off the effects of crap like entanglement, nausea, etc that can actually take him out of the battle.

You cannot IHS the sun. No. Just... no. :smallfurious:

infinitypanda
2009-09-06, 11:50 AM
Actually, the lucky Soulbow trick doesn't work. The reroll isn't you firing another arrow, it's your first arrow having a chance to rewrite history so it hits. So only one reroll per shot.

ericgrau
2009-09-06, 12:06 PM
That's what I was assuming, and the resulting damage still seemed a bit high compared to a fireball or scorching ray. Unless soulbows get mid BAB or less weapon damage than normal or something; I'm not all that familiar with them.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-06, 12:27 PM
Soulbows have 3/4 BaB. And as it's a PrC for a class that is also 3/4, they'll have a slightly lower BaB than a full-classed Archer Cleric.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-06, 12:45 PM
before Divine Power.

But yeah. Soulbows are 3/4ths BAB, but they do more average damage, since they get +wis to damage on their arrows. Since they also take Zen Archery, that makes them pretty darn focused on that, and tends to help with damage per round.

Diamondeye
2009-09-06, 12:46 PM
People thinking that the number of base classes or PrCs in a build, or how many "dips" of 1-3 levels are direct indicators of cheese/overall power.

ericgrau
2009-09-06, 12:52 PM
before Divine Power.

But yeah. Soulbows are 3/4ths BAB, but they do more average damage, since they get +wis to damage on their arrows. Since they also take Zen Archery, that makes them pretty darn focused on that, and tends to help with damage per round.

That stacks with the +1d6 or +2d6 from a magic bow, or is it psionically created like a mind blade? (which falls behind magic weapons IIRC). Assuming no other special abilities, equal damage, etc., the reroll miss would roughly cancel out a mid BAB.

Divine power is a trap, btw. You could be doing damage instead of casting it. Helps given a non-surprise combat w/ a buff round, tho, and barely helps on fights lasting over 5 rounds. Around the 5th-ish round you break even on the damage you lost.

daggaz
2009-09-06, 12:52 PM
People thinking that the number of base classes or PrCs in a build, or how many "dips" of 1-3 levels are direct indicators of cheese/overall power.

Actually, if you are dipping lots of front-end-loaded classes, which most dip builds do, it is a damn good indication of cheese/overall power.

OP: Power attack + Leap attack, without shocktrooper+frenzied+etc+etc.. just all by itself. Cuz god forbid a meleers damage starts actually scaling up and competing with a blaster. :smallyuk: Had this come up twice now.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-06, 01:00 PM
That stacks with the +1d6 or +2d6 from a magic bow, or is it psionically created like a mind blade? (which falls behind magic weapons IIRC). Assuming no other special abilities, equal damage, etc., the reroll miss would roughly cancel out a mid BAB.

Divine power is a trap, btw. You could be doing damage instead of casting it. Helps given a non-surprise combat w/ a buff round, tho, and barely helps on fights lasting over 5 rounds. Around the 5th-ish round you break even on the damage you lost.

What are you talking about? Divine Power lasts all day.

Unless you didn't take Divine Metamgic: Persistent Spell, but then, why wouldn't you? ;)

kamikasei
2009-09-06, 01:02 PM
Actually, if you are dipping lots of front-end-loaded classes, which most dip builds do, it is a damn good indication of cheese/overall power.

The thing is that the most powerful builds that aren't TO are straight-classed casters with PrCs to taste, while many not-particularly-powerful non-full-caster builds need to dip or blend a few classes to cover weaknesses or gain versatility.

tyckspoon
2009-09-06, 01:10 PM
That stacks with the +1d6 or +2d6 from a magic bow, or is it psionically created like a mind blade? (which falls behind magic weapons IIRC). Assuming no other special abilities, equal damage, etc., the reroll miss would roughly cancel out a mid BAB.

They're created like mind blades. You can make them Lucky Flaming Frost (although at that point I'd probably go Collision or Wounding) mindarrows if you've taken enough levels in Soulbow, but that would require a comparison against higher-level spells and standard archers. You can also charge your first arrow with a Psychic Strike (if you actually took enough Soulknife levels for it) and Psionic Shot/Greater Psionic Shot, which you can select as Soulbow bonus feats. And if you take this line seriously

Likewise, these enhancement bonuses also improve your soulknife base attack bonus then the Soulbow also gets +2 BAB, but I don't think anybody has ever figured out quite what they really meant to say there. Soulknife Weapon Focus for the Mind Blade also applies to the Mind Arrows.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-06, 02:02 PM
That stacks with the +1d6 or +2d6 from a magic bow, or is it psionically created like a mind blade? (which falls behind magic weapons IIRC). Assuming no other special abilities, equal damage, etc., the reroll miss would roughly cancel out a mid BAB.

Divine power is a trap, btw. You could be doing damage instead of casting it. Helps given a non-surprise combat w/ a buff round, tho, and barely helps on fights lasting over 5 rounds. Around the 5th-ish round you break even on the damage you lost.

It's a psionic creation, but if I recall, it's ahead of a normal magic bow, but behind a GMWed Bow with some WBL spent on it.

And Divine Power is Persistable, like all Personal Range Buffs.

penbed400
2009-09-06, 02:41 PM
Rod of Undead Mastery, with most of the corpsecrafter feats and the necro variant from unearthed arcane.

Apparently an army of 80 skeletons and a skeleton general is ridiculous :-P

Tyndmyr
2009-09-06, 03:06 PM
Definitely not ridiculous. See, the thing about skeletons is...they're still skeletons. By the time you get this army, an equal character can go through skeletons pretty rapidly.

Belt of Healing. It is good, I won't deny that, but so many people out there have hatred for it. It's a limited use per day magic item that takes a body slot. Basically, a cheaper, much more restricted and limited wand of CLW. It's main value is that it's sufficiently cheap to be taken at a low level. It's not something I'd bother buying at medium-high levels.

ericgrau
2009-09-06, 03:12 PM
It's a psionic creation, but if I recall, it's ahead of a normal magic bow, but behind a GMWed Bow with some WBL spent on it.

And Divine Power is Persistable, like all Personal Range Buffs.

So said the white text as well, but I thought he was just being silly cheesy. It's not persistable, it's DMM persistable, from the realm of gouda. And why stop at divine power? You can take things so much farther with DMM persist...

Kelpstrand
2009-09-06, 03:15 PM
Definitely not ridiculous. See, the thing about skeletons is...they're still skeletons. By the time you get this army, an equal character can go through skeletons pretty rapidly.

No, one said 1HD skeletons.

At level 5, running around with 2 Fire Giant Skeletons is more melee muscle than your average Fighter brings to the table.


So said the white text as well, but I thought he was just being silly cheesy. It's not persistable, it's DMM persistable, from the realm of gouda. And why stop at divine power? You can take things so much farther with DMM persist...

And you do. Which is why Cleric Archers are the best Archers in the game.

Random NPC
2009-09-06, 03:21 PM
Things people think are broken but aren't:

Tome of Battle
Psionics sans Erudite
Warlock

/thread

Myou
2009-09-06, 03:24 PM
Things people think are broken but aren't:

Tome of Battle
Psionics sans Erudite
Warlock

/thread

Quoted for truth. I've seen a ridiculous number of people who think that ToB is broken. :smallsigh:

Kelpstrand
2009-09-06, 03:26 PM
Things people think are broken but aren't:

Tome of Battle
Psionics sans Erudite
Warlock

Things people think are broken that aren't:

Erudite.

kamikasei
2009-09-06, 03:27 PM
Quoted for truth. I've seen a ridiculous number of people who think that ToB is broken. :smallsigh:

What wrecks my head are the people with stories like "once a guy in our group played a psion, and he was the only one who had read the psionics rules, and he was ridiculously OP. Also he cheated a lot. So, we don't allow psionics anymore."

Myou
2009-09-06, 03:32 PM
What wrecks my head are the people with stories like "once a guy in our group played a psion, and he was the only one who had read the psionics rules, and he was ridiculously OP. Also he cheated a lot. So, we don't allow psionics anymore."

Ugh, yes.
Or people who say 'One time we had a guy who played a swordsage, and he was dealing more damage than the blaster wizard!'. That just boggles the mind. x_x

Eldariel
2009-09-06, 03:33 PM
Things people think are broken that aren't:

Erudite.

I dunno, Spells to Powers Erudite has more infinite loops and major stupidity than any other class alone.

OracleofWuffing
2009-09-06, 03:37 PM
One DM has banned me from playing a Divine Bard ever again. Because they can cast Glitterdust. I can play a Wizard, Sorceror, or normal Bard, but none of this "Broken Divine Bard phooey."

Random NPC
2009-09-06, 03:39 PM
Things people think are broken that aren't:

Erudite.

With Spell to Power it can get cheesy. Besides, the class appears in the Splatbook-that-should-not-be-named

Myou
2009-09-06, 03:40 PM
One DM has banned me from playing a Divine Bard ever again. Because they can cast Glitterdust. I can play a Wizard, Sorceror, or normal Bard, but none of this "Broken Divine Bard phooey."

Divine bard? :smallconfused:

Tyndmyr
2009-09-06, 03:49 PM
One DM has banned me from playing a Divine Bard ever again. Because they can cast Glitterdust. I can play a Wizard, Sorceror, or normal Bard, but none of this "Broken Divine Bard phooey."

This is hilarious, mostly because he apparently doesn't realize who can cast glitterdust.


As for the skeletons, Isn't most undead control restricted by hit die? I presumed the massive swarm of skeletons meant 1 hit die skeletons(excluding general of course). That'd be a fun low level bad guy, incidentally.

OracleofWuffing
2009-09-06, 03:50 PM
Divine bard? :smallconfused:
Here's a link (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#bardVariantDivineBard) . You get all bard spells as normal (plus some more), but they're divine and you need WIS to learn and cast them, but everything else still runs off of CHA. I was mainly using it easily get into the Divine Prankster Prestige Class, 'cause I liked the flavor.

Hey, where are all the ninjas? I should get ninja'd on this.

Myou
2009-09-06, 03:52 PM
This is hilarious, mostly because he apparently doesn't realize who can cast glitterdust.


That's what confused me, I thought I just didn't know what a divine bard was. xD

Kelpstrand
2009-09-06, 04:05 PM
I dunno, Spells to Powers Erudite has more infinite loops and major stupidity than any other class alone.

I'll agree it has more Major stupidity. As far as I know it has one infinite loop that a Psion can't match, and that one infinite loop requires you to ignore Psionic/Magic transparency.

Nope. Spell to Power Erudite is generally at Sorcerer level competence. It might have one more infinite power loop than Sorcerers. But that actually has no bearing on anything, since if the DM allows a number of infinite Power loops greater than 0, it doesn't matter what class you choose.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-06, 04:09 PM
In practice, I suspect if I ever tried an infinite loop, it would only last until the point where the DM recognized it was going to be infinite. I can't imagine any decent game ruling it any differently.

Your second candle of invocation does in fact summon you an efreet. He wonders why you called him back so soon. No, he doesn't have more wishes today.

Random NPC
2009-09-06, 04:13 PM
I'll agree it has more Major stupidity. As far as I know it has one infinite loop that a Psion can't match, and that one infinite loop requires you to ignore Psionic/Magic transparency.

Nope. Spell to Power Erudite is generally at Sorcerer level competence. It might have one more infinite power loop than Sorcerers. But that actually has no bearing on anything, since if the DM allows a number of infinite Power loops greater than 0, it doesn't matter what class you choose.

WHAT?!

Erudites are a Tier 1 class

Kelpstrand
2009-09-06, 04:17 PM
As for the skeletons, Isn't most undead control restricted by hit die? I presumed the massive swarm of skeletons meant 1 hit die skeletons(excluding general of course). That'd be a fun low level bad guy, incidentally.

Not rebuking undead, which works well with repeated Animate Deads causing you to lose control. And Animate Undead is 4HD per CL when used well. CL being an easy thing to boost, this means that a level 5 Cleric can easily bring to the table:

A number of 2-5 HD skeletons limited only by amount of money willing to be spent. (And not even that for Pale Master dips).

Along with: CL 8, a level 5 Cleric can be running around with two of these (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm#fireGiant) as his pets.

And that's a lot more melee muscle than your average fighter.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-06, 04:18 PM
WHAT?!

Erudites are a Tier 1 class

And Monks are Tier 1 classes according to Giamoco. Your point?

Dixieboy
2009-09-06, 04:19 PM
Rod of Undead Mastery, with most of the corpsecrafter feats and the necro variant from unearthed arcane.

Apparently an army of 80 skeletons and a skeleton general is ridiculous :-P

CR 81? (I was never good with CR and stuff like that)
That sounds pretty ridicoulus.

Anyway, Monks.
I know, I know.

Everyone on the internetz know it is not in fact broken.
But I got quite a lot of friends who thinks so.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-06, 04:20 PM
Invite them to the Test of Spite, then :smallsmile:

Tyndmyr
2009-09-06, 04:21 PM
Not rebuking undead, which works well with repeated Animate Deads causing you to lose control. And Animate Undead is 4HD per CL when used well. CL being an easy thing to boost, this means that a level 5 Cleric can easily bring to the table:

A number of 2-5 HD skeletons limited only by amount of money willing to be spent. (And not even that for Pale Master dips).

Along with: CL 8, a level 5 Cleric can be running around with two of these (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/giant.htm#fireGiant) as his pets.

And that's a lot more melee muscle than your average fighter.

Oh, I wont argue that. I was simply stating that the giant swarm of skeletons wasn't really all that overpowered. A pair of fire giant skeletons...yeah, definitely. Of course, keep in mind that you first need access to a pair of dead fire giants.

Edit: Yes...in theory, a swarm of 1HD skeletons might have a higher CR, Dixie, but all that proves is that CR is a weak estimate of danger. Even at moderate level, a party can flatten a ridiculous number of CR1 mobs without much danger. I'd guess that nearly any level 8 PC should be able to down that CR81 mob.

Dixieboy
2009-09-06, 04:25 PM
Invite them to the Test of Spite, then :smallsmile:

I consider disillusionment to fall under the "Cruel and unsusual punishment"' category.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-06, 04:28 PM
Oh, I wont argue that. I was simply stating that the giant swarm of skeletons wasn't really all that overpowered. A pair of fire giant skeletons...yeah, definitely. Of course, keep in mind that you first need access to a pair of dead fire giants.

Well, as I was explaining, the Giant Skeleton Swarm can actually be 80 5HD skeletons as easily as 80 1HD skeletons.

And at level 5, the Cleric running around with 80 5HD skeletons is still a big deal.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-06, 04:28 PM
I consider disillusionment to fall under the "Cruel and unsusual punishment"' category.
I feed off of shattered hopes and dreams.

Tiktakkat
2009-09-06, 04:29 PM
People thinking that the number of base classes or PrCs in a build, or how many "dips" of 1-3 levels are direct indicators of cheese/overall power.

In many cases, I consider them direct indicators of something close to the opposite.

Too many such builds in action rely on the rest of the party to keep said character alive, sucking up xp, for the first 5-10 levels of its existence, until the half dozen synergies of the build finally kick in, and the rest of the party is reduced to follower (not even cohort) status.

If a build has multiple levels where it is either sub-optimized compared to another character of that class and level, or where it is incapable of contributing as even an ordinary character of that level, it definitely qualifies as "something". Perhaps not "cheese" or "overpowered/broken", but something not particularly useful, and definitely not deserving of admiration just because its empowered form is capable of soloing multiple outer planes without resting.

Dixieboy
2009-09-06, 04:31 PM
I feed off of shattered hopes and dreams.

Awesome.
In that case you can answer a question I have been asking myself for a long time.
How does shattered hope taste?
And does it go well with salmon?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-06, 04:35 PM
Awesome.
In that case you can answer a question I have been asking myself for a long time.
How does shattered hope taste?
And does it go well with salmon?
It tastes like the blood of virgins.

Which goes well with salmon if you pan sear it.

Dixieboy
2009-09-06, 04:36 PM
I always found the blood of virgins to have a bit too much of a sweet undertone to it, not really a fan of the Bouquet either.

Oslecamo
2009-09-06, 04:40 PM
Quoted for truth. I've seen a ridiculous number of people who think that ToB is broken. :smallsigh:

Because it is. Ever seen IHS? If you use the same logic casters use, then you can claim anything is an effect on you, and end it. Including the world. Including the galaxy. Including the universe.

At level 5, the warblade can end the universe as a standard action. Explain to me why that isn't broken?

Also, arcane swordsage. Time stop at will=batman wizard crying himself to sleep every night.

Kurald Galain
2009-09-06, 04:40 PM
I always found the blood of virgins to have a bit too much of a sweet undertone to it, not really a fan of the Bouquet either.

It goes well with Fillet of Soul...

mostlyharmful
2009-09-06, 04:40 PM
I always found the blood of virgins to have a bit too much of a sweet undertone to it, not really a fan of the Bouquet either.

Then try the blood of the late middle aged, it's an aquired taste but well worth the effort for the delicate layerings of flavour in the aftertaste provided by decades of accrued misery and disappointment with life. Or else milk, that works too.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-09-06, 04:47 PM
Because it is. Ever seen IHS? If you use the same logic casters use, then you can claim anything is an effect on you, and end it. Including the world. Including the galaxy. Including the universe.

At level 5, the warblade can end the universe as a standard action. Explain to me why that isn't broken?

Also, arcane swordsage. Time stop at will=batman wizard crying himself to sleep every night.

The problem here is that people equate three legitimately broken, badly-written things (IHS, WRT, and Arcane Swordsage) with ToB as a whole, when using common sense on the first one, houseruling the second, and disallowing the last (which is only a hardly-fleshed-out suggestion anyway) solves the problem entirely. This, as opposed to something like the wizard where you would have to ban over 2/3 of all possible arcane spells to prevent infinite loops, unintended synergy, and other shenanigans.

Sholos
2009-09-06, 04:49 PM
Because it is. Ever seen IHS? If you use the same logic casters use, then you can claim anything is an effect on you, and end it. Including the world. Including the galaxy. Including the universe.

At level 5, the warblade can end the universe as a standard action. Explain to me why that isn't broken?

Also, arcane swordsage. Time stop at will=batman wizard crying himself to sleep every night.

Please explain the last two.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-06, 04:50 PM
Sneak attack more than once per round

OracleofWuffing
2009-09-06, 04:59 PM
Because it is. Ever seen IHS? If you use the same logic casters use, then you can claim anything is an effect on you, and end it. Including the world. Including the galaxy. Including the universe.
What sort of caster-logic gives the universe a duration of 1 or more rounds? If anything, caster-logic makes the universe collapse on itself, immediately.

paddyfool
2009-09-06, 05:00 PM
Even in the action, Divine Power still has its place.

For instance: PCs attack and disrupt a cultists' sacrificial ceremony. The high priest tells his fellow cultists to get slaughtered stuck in while he spends a round buffing up and watching the PCs to figure out which threats deserve his personal attention. Divine Power is downright perfect for this.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-06, 05:06 PM
What is this caster logic Ozzy rants on about? Do all casters use the same logic or something? Is this a defined term? Please explain, Ozzy.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-06, 05:08 PM
Well, as I was explaining, the Giant Skeleton Swarm can actually be 80 5HD skeletons as easily as 80 1HD skeletons.

And at level 5, the Cleric running around with 80 5HD skeletons is still a big deal.

Possible, but same issue...you need a source of 80 5HD dead creatures, no? This is a lot easier than the fire giants, but still, you're likely not going to have access to an infinite number of dead bodies to raise, the time to do it, etc at low level.

It's one of those things that could be quite broken in theory, but in the course of an actual game, is likely to be much less so. Still quite potent though.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-06, 05:10 PM
What sort of caster-logic gives the universe a duration of 1 or more rounds? If anything, caster-logic makes the universe collapse on itself, immediately.

The universe has a duration of 10^100 years, iirc.

Myou
2009-09-06, 05:10 PM
Because it is. Ever seen IHS? If you use the same logic casters use, then you can claim anything is an effect on you, and end it. Including the world. Including the galaxy. Including the universe.

At level 5, the warblade can end the universe as a standard action. Explain to me why that isn't broken?

Also, arcane swordsage. Time stop at will=batman wizard crying himself to sleep every night.

I refer you to PairO'Dice Lost. :smallsmile:

What's WRT though?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-06, 05:12 PM
Because it is. Ever seen IHS? If you use the same logic casters use, then you can claim anything is an effect on you, and end it. Including the world. Including the galaxy. Including the universe.
No you can't, and I have never seen anyone define effect this way. Your point is not valid.


Also, arcane swordsage. Time stop at will=batman wizard crying himself to sleep every night.
The arcane swordsage is a barely shelled out suggestion in the back of the book's adaptations section. It is not an official class or variant. Your point is not valid.

Myou
2009-09-06, 05:19 PM
Ah, WRT is white Raven Tactics, which effectively gives an ally an extra turn.

Dixieboy
2009-09-06, 05:20 PM
What sort of caster-logic gives the universe a duration of 1 or more rounds? If anything, caster-logic makes the universe collapse on itself, immediately.

Using "Caster logic" (I call it Munchkin logic personally)
The universe does indeed last more than one round.

Lamech
2009-09-06, 05:20 PM
Yeah, "effect" is poorly defined. The galaxy has an effect on me, as it has a gravitational pull. Then if we apply quantum physics mumbo-jumbo we claim matter is an effect. Then we end the galaxy. At the very least we can pop the strong nuclear force with a permisive DM.

Just... use common sense. A forest fire? Say its a bunch of localized fires. The dazing by the sun for drow? No longer dazed. Forcecage? Gone. Its a powerful dispel but warriors need it in a world with forcecages.

And whats wrong with WRT unless you go out of your way to combo it? It doesn't adversly effect balance as it is purely buffing. Yes monsters must get more powerful, but thats why we have protean scourges.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-06, 05:21 PM
Gravity does not exist in DnD.

lsfreak
2009-09-06, 05:22 PM
No you can't, and I have never seen anyone define effect this way. Your point is not valid.

If you are an extreme nihilist, you -and everything else- are under the negative effect knows as existence. Use IHS to remedy this problem. (This is due to the FAQ's horribad ruling, though, and not actually the maneuver as-written).

EDIT: Are you... seriously going to argue gravity doesn't exist in D&D? Nuclear physics and that I can understand, but gravity?

Woodsman
2009-09-06, 05:25 PM
Please explain the last two.

The first one of those two is the maneuver Iron Heart Surge. The description states choosing a spell, effect, or other condition effecting you for more than one round. The maneuver allows to end it. People claim that by RAW you can end the universe. This is a stupid way to interpret it. I say if it's not listed in the back of the DMG or it doesn't hinder you in some statistical way, it ain't gonna fly.

The second is an adaptation of the swordsage mentioned in ToB, where a swordsage uses existing spells as maneuvers instead of the ones listed in the ToB. Combined with Adaptive Style (Full-round action gaining maneuvers back w/ unlimited use), you could theoretically use Time Stop at will at a high enough level. Again, this is poor RAW, but any DM who thinks long enough wouldn't let a player do this.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-06, 05:28 PM
EDIT: Are you... seriously going to argue gravity doesn't exist in D&D? Nuclear physics and that I can understand, but gravity?

Not gravity as we know it, no...

Not Newton's Gravity. Not Gravity as in "Acceleration due to gravity is 9.81 m/s^2, KE = 1/2 MV^2, PE = mgh, http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/9/8/1/981c4a7801639525969c8d798aca28ce.png

Deepblue706
2009-09-06, 05:33 PM
I've encountered folks who considered the following to be absolutely broken:

Ultimate Magus (It's TWO THINGS)
Mystic Theurge (It's ALSO TWO THINGS)
Eldritch Knight (ZOMG TWO THINGS)
Frenzied Berserker (A THING!!!)
Warlock (LOTS OF THINGS!)
Paladin (THINGS!!!)

Woodsman
2009-09-06, 05:36 PM
Paladin (THINGS!!!)

Any one who thinks Paladin is broken needs to stop and think.

Melamoto
2009-09-06, 05:39 PM
Paladin (THINGS!!!)

You are not being serious. Please tell me that people don't seriously think Paladins are broken.

Dixieboy
2009-09-06, 05:41 PM
You are not being serious. Please tell me that people don't seriously think Paladins are broken.

They are broken.

I mean, remove all their class abilities if they don't follow an arbitrary ill-defined set of rules?

Tyndmyr
2009-09-06, 05:42 PM
Sadly, yes I have. It was explained as "practically as good as a fighter and they get spells too".

I have absolutely no explanation for this.

Myou
2009-09-06, 05:44 PM
And whats wrong with WRT unless you go out of your way to combo it? It doesn't adversly effect balance as it is purely buffing. Yes monsters must get more powerful, but thats why we have protean scourges.

Err, no, White Raven Tactics is a swift action that sets an ally's initiative count to your own -1, and, if they have already acted that round, lets them immediately act again.

lsfreak
2009-09-06, 05:45 PM
You are not being serious. Please tell me that people don't seriously think Paladins are broken.

Well, let me put it this way: I know people who think monks are broken because they get more attacks in a round than the statted-out gods.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-06, 05:52 PM
You are not being serious. Please tell me that people don't seriously think Paladins are broken.

Broken bad, not broken good.

See Pun-Pun is broken good (because he is so awesome he is broken).

Pallys are broken bad: because DMs liketo screw them and make them warriors without abilities.

kamikasei
2009-09-06, 05:54 PM
The second is an adaptation of the swordsage mentioned in ToB, where a swordsage uses existing spells as maneuvers instead of the ones listed in the ToB. Combined with Adaptive Style (Full-round action gaining maneuvers back w/ unlimited use), you could theoretically use Time Stop at will at a high enough level. Again, this is poor RAW, but any DM who thinks long enough wouldn't let a player do this.

It's not RAW at all. It's a sketch of a class the DM can flesh out at his option. There are no fixed rules to abuse; it's even sillier than claiming the item creation guidelines are broken (as opposed to not infallibly useful).

Also, what Dice said.

Kurald Galain
2009-09-06, 05:59 PM
http://upload.wikimedia.org/math/9/8/1/981c4a7801639525969c8d798aca28ce.png

Please, think of the catgirls!

Woodsman
2009-09-06, 06:00 PM
It's not RAW at all. It's a sketch of a class the DM can flesh out at his option. There are no fixed rules to abuse; it's even sillier than claiming the item creation guidelines are broken (as opposed to not infallibly useful).

Also, what Dice said.

This is true. It's also why I said DM's should think about allowing it.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-06, 06:02 PM
Possible, but same issue...you need a source of 80 5HD dead creatures, no? This is a lot easier than the fire giants, but still, you're likely not going to have access to an infinite number of dead bodies to raise, the time to do it, etc at low level.

It's one of those things that could be quite broken in theory, but in the course of an actual game, is likely to be much less so. Still quite potent though.

As someone who has played many a Necromancer, it is absolutely broken in game.

There are basically infinite sources of 5hd dead people. I have personally raised half of an army from a mass grave at a battle, torn up village using it's own graveyard, killed off poor commoners to use their bodies, and set up an elaborate cult where people came to me for immortality and I offed them and raised their bodies.

All of that has happened to various Cleric of level 8 and lower.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-06, 06:12 PM
Well, my experiences as a necromancer were much more limited. I could raise plenty of things we fought, sure. Occasionally the odd abandoned body. Slaughtering piles of townspeople would have led to Bad Things happening to me very rapidly, especially what with the raising. As it was, people weren't terribly fond of undead, so whenever I needed to deal with people, I typically had to stash em somewhere. And that's not even mentioning the stench...worse than an unwashed halfling, I tell ya.

In seriousness, it's a DM difference I suspect. The fact that you built your own cult that came to you to die and be raised, and were allowed to run an undead isn't really a failing of the class or it's abilities, it's simply a part of a campaign. I don't think that's very representative of most campaigns, or how most people would be able to play.

Skorj
2009-09-06, 06:16 PM
Gravity does not exist in DnD.

Gravity doesn't exist inn D&D [edition I dislike], the world just sucks! :smallbiggrin:

Myrmex
2009-09-06, 06:18 PM
People thinking that the number of base classes or PrCs in a build, or how many "dips" of 1-3 levels are direct indicators of cheese/overall power.

Which, when compared to a base class they are trying to emulate, tends to be true.


At level 5, running around with 2 Fire Giant Skeletons is more melee muscle than your average Fighter brings to the table.

How do you get two fire giant skeletons at level 5?


Gravity does not exist in DnD.

Is that a houserule?


Yeah, if you previously cast Touch of Idiocy on the DM.

That's why he prefaced it by with "caster logic". Most arguments for casters being extremely broken depend on not having a competent DM.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-06, 06:18 PM
As someone who has played many a Necromancer, it is absolutely broken in game.

There are basically infinite sources of 5hd dead people. I have personally raised half of an army from a mass grave at a battle, torn up village using it's own graveyard, killed off poor commoners to use their bodies, and set up an elaborate cult where people came to me for immortality and I offed them and raised their bodies.

All of that has happened to various Cleric of level 8 and lower.

5HD dead people? A human skeleton has 1 HD. Period. No more. Class levels do not count when making a skeleton or zombie.

The best way to abuse necromancy is to create an undead that creates spawn under its control and sic it on a village.

Dixieboy
2009-09-06, 06:20 PM
Ehmm, +4 HD humanoids...

I can't think of any :smallredface:

Kelpstrand
2009-09-06, 06:20 PM
In seriousness, it's a DM difference I suspect. The fact that you built your own cult that came to you to die and be raised, and were allowed to run an undead isn't really a failing of the class or it's abilities, it's simply a part of a campaign. I don't think that's very representative of most campaigns, or how most people would be able to play.

It's not a failing of the class that it can do many interesting and fun things. It is a failing of the class that it can build a better fighter than the fighter, and that can be done without much work at all.

More accurately. It is a failing of the fighter that the Cleric can build a better fighter with just skeletons of defeated enemies.

Mike_G
2009-09-06, 06:20 PM
Because it is. Ever seen IHS? If you use the same logic casters use, then you can claim anything is an effect on you, and end it. Including the world. Including the galaxy. Including the universe.



Yeah, if you previously cast Touch of Idiocy on the DM.

The best guideline for IHS is that it can end any "effect" that would make Conan mutter "What sorcery is this?" then free himself of with a roar and a flexing of his mighty thews. (Yay, Thews!!) Blindness, Slow, Ray of Enfeeblement, Touch of Fatigue, Paralysis, sure.

I have a hard time picturing the iconic Cimmerian, struggling through the blistering heat of the desert, casting his eyes heavenward and shouting "CROOOOMMM!!!!!!!!!" and making the sun fade.

If a player tries to justify this anywhere but an internet forum, I think DM Surge would end the effect of his presence at the table.

Dixieboy
2009-09-06, 06:22 PM
I don't see a problem with a guy staving off the desert sun through willpower though.

Myou
2009-09-06, 06:23 PM
I don't see a problem with a guy staving off the desert sun through willpower though.

Staving off it's effect on him, yes, as a reasonable DM would allow.

Staving off the actual sun, no.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-06, 06:24 PM
If you want to put out the sun, play Nobilis. It's given in the rulebook as a pretty basic miracle.

Actually, play Nobilis anyway. More people should.

Mike_G
2009-09-06, 06:28 PM
I don't see a problem with a guy staving off the desert sun through willpower though.


Exactly what Myou said.

Ending the effect of thirst, of fatigue, etc, sure.

This "Warblade can end the world" is just rules lawyering and trying to look smart at the expense of one ambiguously defined word. No sane DM would ever have a problem with it if he applied an amount of common sense normally required to dop one's trousers before defecating.

sofawall
2009-09-06, 06:29 PM
Staving off it's effect on him, yes, as a reasonable DM would allow.

Staving off the actual sun, no.

I dunno, it is Conan...

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-09-06, 06:33 PM
Which, when compared to a base class they are trying to emulate, tends to be true.

Expand, please? Sheer number of classes is almost never an indicator of power level or brokenness. Generally speaking, Fighter 2/Barbarian 2/Ranger 2 is less powerful than Wizard 6 but more powerful than Soulknife 6, and Wizard 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 10 is more powerful than Wizard 5/Loremaster 10 but less powerful than Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10--and particular build choice can mess with build power even then.

Myou
2009-09-06, 06:37 PM
I dunno, it is Conan...

You're right, his int is so low he doesn't even know what the sun is.

"Aaaargh! Yellow man in sky burn Conan skin! Iron Heart Suuuurge!"

"...."

"Why Conan skin still burn?! Why little man in sky not dead?!"

Myrmex
2009-09-06, 06:41 PM
Expand, please? Sheer number of classes is almost never an indicator of power level or brokenness. Generally speaking, Fighter 2/Barbarian 2/Ranger 2 is less powerful than Wizard 6 but more powerful than Soulknife 6, and Wizard 5/Mage of the Arcane Order 10 is more powerful than Wizard 5/Loremaster 10 but less powerful than Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10--and particular build choice can mess with build power even then.

Sure. Pounce Barbarian 1/fighter 4/prestige classes x y z is more powerful than Barbarian 20 or Fighter 20 in virtually all cases.

Even with casters, you get the same results.

A killer gnome is stupendously more powerful than wizard 20, but to maximize its super power, needs 5ish prestige classes, from about as many sources.

With the exception of the druid, all tier 1 & 2 classes can be made better with prestige classes, usually dipping two or three. Tier 3 classes tend to be an exception, but those tend to be really well designed classes- duskblade, beguiler, psychic warrior, ToB stuff. Below tier 3, you get a lot more power out of multi-dipping, but that's because it's much easier to "move up", as you're at least halfway down the power ladder.

With more niche builds, the more dipping the better- gish & theurges being the best examples.

SilveryCord
2009-09-06, 06:41 PM
"effect, or other condition currently affecting you and with a duration of 1 or more rounds." clearly refers to things that fit that definition *as per the game's rules*. The only person at the table who can add game rules is the DM. If the DM determines that the sun is an artifact that casts Epic Solar Power each morning and it has the effect of heating and lighting the planet, then in that case sure you can use Iron Heart Surge to negate its effect *on yourself*.

darkblust
2009-09-06, 06:44 PM
One of the guys i play with thinks a low-level duskblade is overpowered beacause you can cast shocking grasp,blade of blood,and true strike in 2 turn to deal 7d6 damage + weapon damage.I dont know.

Gorgondantess
2009-09-06, 06:47 PM
One of the guys i play with thinks a low-level duskblade is overpowered beacause you can cast shocking grasp,blade of blood,and true strike in 2 turn to deal 7d6 damage + weapon damage.I dont know.

When people see a lot of d6s, they tend to freak out. If you said the duskblade could cast a lot of spells and do on average a bit over 30 damage, they wouldn't so much.

The Glyphstone
2009-09-06, 06:48 PM
D&D Gravity is the Archimedian type, where objects just naturally fall towards the earth because that's where they belong at a flat speed.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-06, 06:55 PM
More accurately. It is a failing of the fighter that the Cleric can build a better fighter with just skeletons of defeated enemies.

That's the key right there. And it's not a failing that occurs only with clerics raising dead, but in a wide array of other examples as well. The blame definitely falls on the fighter being weak rather than everything else being too strong.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-06, 06:55 PM
Sure. Pounce Barbarian 1/fighter 4/prestige classes x y z is more powerful than Barbarian 20 or Fighter 20 in virtually all cases.

Even with casters, you get the same results.

A killer gnome is stupendously more powerful than wizard 20, but to maximize its super power, needs 5ish prestige classes, from about as many sources.

A Pounce Barbarian 20 is better than most Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/PrC X/PrC Y builds. The difference is you let one of the dip Barbarian have Pounce, and not the other one.

A Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10 is more powerful than a Wizard 2/Master Specialist 3/Shadow Adept 2/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Whatever else you think Killer Gnomes need here.

A Wizard 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5 is more powerful than a Wizard 2/Master Specialist 3/Divine Oracle 2/Loremaster 1/Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil 7

sofawall
2009-09-06, 06:59 PM
A Pounce Barbarian 20 is better than most Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/PrC X/PrC Y builds. The difference is you let one of the dip Barbarian have Pounce, and not the other one.

Wizard 20 is more powerful than Wizard 2/Focused Specialist 3/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 3/Mindbender 1/Fatespinner 1 if you don't allow the PrC build to have 9th level spells.


A Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10 is more powerful than a Wizard 2/Master Specialist 3/Shadow Adept 2/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Whatever else you think Killer Gnomes need here.

Debatable. Very debatable.


A Wizard 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5 is more powerful than a Wizard 2/Master Specialist 3/Divine Oracle 2/Loremaster 1/Initiate of the Seven Fold Veil 7

Even more debatable. Iot7V is particularly hilarious.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-06, 07:09 PM
IoT7V is quite powerful...however, it's power, like many of the prestige classes, is weighted torwards the latter levels. If you merely took a dip in it, you'd be wasting a ton of feats for relatively little advantage.

Not every prestige class has the same top-level weighting of power, but a very large portion of them do, so yeah, I'd agree that generally maxing out a prestige class is going to do more for you than repeated dipping. There are a few exceptions, and sometimes the levels add up such that you have enough for a dip/another prestige class after your first, but in general, heavy multiclassing is very difficult to do without weakening your character.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-06, 07:13 PM
Wizard 20 is more powerful than Wizard 2/Focused Specialist 3/Incantatrix 10/Archmage 3/Mindbender 1/Fatespinner 1 if you don't allow the PrC build to have 9th level spells.

You demonstrate your lack of design chops by showing you don't know the actual rules under discussion:

Barbarian 20 with Pounce > Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/PrC X/PrC Y with pounce

Now. His contention is that:

Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/PrC X/PrC Y > Barbarian 20 without pounce.

Where did the first build get Pounce? Oh right. Barbarian 1.

He's the one taking away class abilities from the single classed build for no reason but giving them to the multi class one.

As for 'debatable' You saying it doesn't make it so. Incantatrix is better than Kill Gnomes. Being invulnerable and having touch attack = die spells is better than spontaneous casting. Spontaneous casting is better than Veils.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-06, 07:16 PM
No, really, the Shadowcraft Mage isn't better than the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. Io7V is very strong. Shadowcraft Mage is just useful and can throw around some blasty magic better than an evoker. That's not hard.

Why do you think the killer gnome is better than the veil guy? Honest question.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-06, 07:21 PM
No, really, the Shadowcraft Mage isn't better than the Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil. Io7V is very strong. Shadowcraft Mage is just useful and can throw around some blasty magic better than an evoker. That's not hard.

Why do you think the killer gnome is better than the veil guy? Honest question.

Shadowcraft Mages can Spontaneously cast any Conjuration or Evocation spell at greater than 100% existence, and cast 9th level spells from 0th level slots. (Or 6th level spells at level 11, or whatever their highest level spell is). That is better than a standard action Veil a few times a day, or at level 14-15, a Immediate action veil or double veil.

Yukitsu
2009-09-06, 07:23 PM
Strictly speaking, I'd not say that that is stronger than using veils. An initiate has just as good spells on the whole, save for much maligned damage ones, as well as a variety of instant defensive measures that put them a cut above a killer gnome in survivability. For offense, they have at their disposal all the necessary spells anyway, even if less per day.

sofawall
2009-09-06, 07:32 PM
You demonstrate your lack of design chops by showing you don't know the actual rules under discussion:

You make me laugh. I think I have a fair amount a design chops. I may not toss it around on GitP, but seeing what happened to Tidesinger when he tossed a few ideas (not even Algernon, or the Theoretical Physics thread, but simple stuff) I tend not to use it here. I mean, other than ToS. You don't get attack for char op there.


Barbarian 20 with Pounce > Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/PrC X/PrC Y with pounce

Now. His contention is that:

Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/PrC X/PrC Y > Barbarian 20 without pounce.

Where did the first build get Pounce? Oh right. Barbarian 1.

He's the one taking away class abilities from the single classed build for no reason but giving them to the multi class one.

Yeah, I misread what you said. It seemed too stupid to read it the other way. Barb 20 with pounce will often be weaker than Barb 1/Fighter 4/PrC X/PrC Y without it.


As for 'debatable' You saying it doesn't make it so. Incantatrix is better than Kill Gnomes. Being invulnerable and having touch attack = die spells is better than spontaneous casting. Spontaneous casting is better than Veils.

Veils are hardcore. Seriously. Immediate action "**** you" is amazing.

Also, if you're saying Incantatrix but meaning TBoS, well, that's a bit of a leap.

EDIT: Also, New-Max seemed to think highly of Iot7V, as did BG (although there is admittedly great overlap). I, not even counting my own opinion, would believe those site over GitP, overall, and what's ,ore, you've had 2 nays and 0 yays, even on these boards.

(Note, I'm not saying GitP sucks at Char Op, but Gleemax is on a whole different level. The Eldariel/ToS level.)

Eldariel
2009-09-06, 07:34 PM
The number of classes has nothing to do with power-level. Optimized builds often have more than 1 class, yes, but that's a by-product of the existence of "Prestige Classes", which actually are often finished if the PrCs are any good (such as the playable caster ones mostly).

Prestige Classes, by their mere existence, force players to multiclass if they are interested in making an "Enter PrC here", 'cause you can't start out as a PrC. And of course, in most cases, a multiclassed build is weaker than a singleclassed build.


One of the most powerful Wizards you can build is a simple Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5. Yes, Tainted Scholar-using build is more powerful, but this is pretty much the next best thing. And Tainted Scholar is fundamentally even more broken than either of the above classes since it ties your spellcasting to something that's pretty much a multiple of a stat of yours. In other words, it multiplies your spellcasting stat.

Also, it's completely unplayable due to associated rules. So Tainted Scholar doesn't really count. Therefore this is pretty much the best Wizard you can build and it contains 3 classes, taking all of them all the way. We could also have a much more fair Wizard, such as Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Fatespinner 4/Loremaster 6/Divine Oracle 4/Archmage 4, which basically amounts to a Diviner/Enchanter with far less power than the above character, and now it's broken 'cause we have more classes?

Or Druid 20 vs. Druid 10/Master of Many Forms 10; Druid wins any day. Druid 5/Master of Many Forms 7/Nature's Warrior 3/Warshaper 5; Druid 20 wins even harder.


And yes, Barbarian/Fighter multiclass is stronger than straight Barbarian or straight Fighter outside Core, but that just so happens to be because because both classes gain very diminishing returns from additional class levels; they're front-loaded. In Core, straight Barbarian is better 'cause you have no Extra Rage and 'cause the feats you get from Fighter aren't really worth taking.

Now, Rogue 20 vs. Rogue 16/Fighter 4; Rogue 20 is far better (even with the dead level 20). The way the game is designed, some classes are solid all the way which means you don't need to multiclass them to make them good. Then other classes are designed poorly with only few worthwhile abilities and thus multiclassing them makes them better.

Yes, in the case of Fighter or Monk, multiclassing is usually a sign of the player's character improving (or just the player having a concept that requires multiclassing), but in the case of a Druid, a Rogue, or to lesser extent a Wizard or a Cleric, multiclassing can just as often mean weakening the character.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-06, 08:11 PM
Veils are hardcore. Seriously. Immediate action "**** you" is amazing.

You mean standard action. Not all games start at level 14 and above. Even when you do get immediate action, it's still at level 14, blocks only a very few types of attacks, and you get 2 per day. While still doing nothing but small direct damage to anyone attacking you through it with melee, and even that is subject to SR.

Not terribly impressive.

Compare that to a level 14 Shadowcraft Mage who is already casting 110% real Spontaneous Conjuration spells of 7th level from 0th level slots, this with 4 dead levels in which he can pick up Wyrm Wizard for Wings of Cover if he really cares.

Veils are pretty much about equal to Wings of Cover. A Shadowcraft Mage with Wings of Cover has more per day immediate action defenses, at the cost of one PrC level, instead of 7. And it's just about as effective.

If you care that much about immediate defenses, be a Conjurer with Abrupt Jaunt, then it costs one feat instead of 7 class levels.


Also, if you're saying Incantatrix but meaning TBoS, well, that's a bit of a leap.

No, I mean Incantatrix. I have no idea how you can say with a straight face that IotSFV is better than Shadowcraft because of it's defense, but Shadowcraft is better than Incantatrix.

Incantatrix is the master of both offense and defense. He has been rocking Persisted buffs since level 8, and has the bonus feats and metamagic adjustment to throw around level 4 spells that kill people.

Incantatrix gets the ability to be immune to everything all the time, instead of 2-5 times a day.


EDIT: Also, New-Max seemed to think highly of Iot7V, as did BG (although there is admittedly great overlap). I, not even counting my own opinion, would believe those site over GitP, overall, and what's ,ore, you've had 2 nays and 0 yays, even on these boards.

(Note, I'm not saying GitP sucks at Char Op, but Gleemax is on a whole different level. The Eldariel/ToS level.)

Lots of people value IotSFV highly. Lots of people also value Killer Gnomes highly. If you put them next to each other and demonstrate actual abilities at any level, most people can see which one is better. But especially optimization heavy places tend to focus so much on abilities, that they forget to compare it against level appropriate enemies, or opportunity costs of paying for it.

Different places have their biases, like gitp for save or X over other legitimate tactics, or BGs obsession with infinite loops, but in general most places aren't much better than any others.

I wouldn't go looking at the new gleemax just yet, the old one was dying pretty steadily, and the reboot mostly killed it more than revived.

sofawall
2009-09-06, 08:25 PM
If you care that much about immediate defenses, be a Conjurer with Abrupt Jaunt, then it costs one feat instead of 7 class levels.

hmm, I seem to recall it pigeonholing you into wizard and costing a familiar. So not Kobold Sorcerer shenanigans. A bit of a trade, IMO.


No, I mean Incantatrix. I have no idea how you can say with a straight face that IotSFV is better than Shadowcraft because of it's defense, but Shadowcraft is better than Incantatrix.

I don't seem to have said Incantatrix was less powerful than Shadowcraft, although there are situations where Shadowcraft could be more useful.


Incantatrix is the master of both offense and defense. He has been rocking Persisted buffs since level 8, and has the bonus feats and metamagic adjustment to throw around level 4 spells that kill people.

Incantatrix gets the ability to be immune to everything all the time, instead of 2-5 times a day.

And this is why I assumed you were talking about TBoS. Being hard to kill does not mean immune to everything. There is a large difference between Incantatrix-bufs and Twice-Betrayer level immunity. Pun-Pun had trouble touching the Twice-Betrayer, at one point.


Lots of people value IotSFV highly. Lots of people also value Killer Gnomes highly. If you put them next to each other and demonstrate actual abilities at any level, most people can see which one is better. But especially optimization heavy places tend to focus so much on abilities, that they forget to compare it against level appropriate enemies, or opportunity costs of paying for it.

Iot7V is useful for yet another reason. you don't need to be a gnome. Sure gnomes are great and all, but maybe you want the elven substitution levels, or outsider type.


Different places have their biases, like gitp for save or X over other legitimate tactics, or BGs obsession with infinite loops, but in general most places aren't much better than any others.

I wouldn't go looking at the new gleemax just yet, the old one was dying pretty steadily, and the reboot mostly killed it more than revived.

Hmm, Save and Dies are universally loved, although most tend to prefer no save, just die. Infinite loops, well, when you optimized everything finite, why not go infinite?

Kelpstrand
2009-09-06, 08:38 PM
hmm, I seem to recall it pigeonholing you into wizard and costing a familiar. So not Kobold Sorcerer shenanigans. A bit of a trade, IMO.

Well yes, being a Specialist Wizard does require being a Wizard. But Sorcerers aren't actually compatible with IotSFV anyway, and they don't gain anything from it, because veils are just not worth seven class levels three feats, several spells known choices, and some cross class knowledge ranks when you already have Wings of Cover.

But that huge limitation of being a Wizard gives you more immediate action defenses, that often work better, and oh yeah... It gives you them 13 levels sooner.

Since most games last only a couple levels, if we assumed that any given game had an equal chance of starting at any given level, IotSFV would give you exactly zero immediate action defenses for 60% of all games. I think the number of games you might want to play a Kobold Sorcerer IotSFV would be fewer that 60%.


And this is why I assumed you were talking about TBoS. Being hard to kill does not mean immune to everything.

Incantatrixes are not hard to kill. They are invulnerable against any CR = Level to CR = Level + 5 enemy. That's invulnerable for all practical purposes.


Iot7V is useful for yet another reason. you don't need to be a gnome. Sure gnomes are great and all, but maybe you want the elven substitution levels, or outsider type.

There are lots of situations in which you might not want to play a Killer Gnome. That doesn't mean those things are as powerful or more so than Killer Gnomes. It means they are different and less powerful. The Elven Generalist is good, it does not make up for the gross loss of power. It makes a different also fun character.

Myrmex
2009-09-06, 11:16 PM
Now. His contention is that:

Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/PrC X/PrC Y > Barbarian 20 without pounce.

No it's not.

My contention is:
Barbarian 1/Fighter 4/PrC X/PrC Y > Barbarian 20


The number of classes has nothing to do with power-level. Optimized builds often have more than 1 class, yes, but that's a by-product of the existence of "Prestige Classes", which actually are often finished if the PrCs are any good (such as the playable caster ones mostly).

Prestige Classes, by their mere existence, force players to multiclass if they are interested in making an "Enter PrC here", 'cause you can't start out as a PrC. And of course, in most cases, a multiclassed build is weaker than a singleclassed build.


One of the most powerful Wizards you can build is a simple Wizard 5/Incantatrix 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5. Yes, Tainted Scholar-using build is more powerful, but this is pretty much the next best thing. And Tainted Scholar is fundamentally even more broken than either of the above classes since it ties your spellcasting to something that's pretty much a multiple of a stat of yours. In other words, it multiplies your spellcasting stat.

Also, it's completely unplayable due to associated rules. So Tainted Scholar doesn't really count. Therefore this is pretty much the best Wizard you can build and it contains 3 classes, taking all of them all the way. We could also have a much more fair Wizard, such as Wizard 5/Mindbender 1/Fatespinner 4/Loremaster 6/Divine Oracle 4/Archmage 4, which basically amounts to a Diviner/Enchanter with far less power than the above character, and now it's broken 'cause we have more classes?

Or Druid 20 vs. Druid 10/Master of Many Forms 10; Druid wins any day. Druid 5/Master of Many Forms 7/Nature's Warrior 3/Warshaper 5; Druid 20 wins even harder.


And yes, Barbarian/Fighter multiclass is stronger than straight Barbarian or straight Fighter outside Core, but that just so happens to be because because both classes gain very diminishing returns from additional class levels; they're front-loaded. In Core, straight Barbarian is better 'cause you have no Extra Rage and 'cause the feats you get from Fighter aren't really worth taking.

Now, Rogue 20 vs. Rogue 16/Fighter 4; Rogue 20 is far better (even with the dead level 20). The way the game is designed, some classes are solid all the way which means you don't need to multiclass them to make them good. Then other classes are designed poorly with only few worthwhile abilities and thus multiclassing them makes them better.

Yes, in the case of Fighter or Monk, multiclassing is usually a sign of the player's character improving (or just the player having a concept that requires multiclassing), but in the case of a Druid, a Rogue, or to lesser extent a Wizard or a Cleric, multiclassing can just as often mean weakening the character.

Go back an reread my post. I covered all that, though I forgot to say Artificer doesn't benefit much from multiclassing.

Virtually every tier gains a lot of from multiclassing, save a handful of tier 1 and tier 3 classes.

I know that whenever someone asks for build advice here, it's almost always base class x/base class y/ prc 1/ prc 2/ prc 3. Exceptions tend to be druid, artificer, beguiler & duskblade, and, if books are limited, sorc, wizard and cleric.

Eldariel
2009-09-06, 11:23 PM
Go back an reread my post. I covered all that, though I forgot to say Artificer doesn't benefit much from multiclassing

The most contentious part of your phrase was the "5 PrC combination" of Killer Gnome while in fact, it's two finished PrCs. In general, I don't think straight PrCs should count as multiclassing per ce, rather than a character of that PrC with certain necessary lead-in. Under such a view, dipping is really rare for anything over tier 4.

Then tier 4 and under tend to be a dipping fest 'cause there's only 2-3 worthwhile class features per class and they're almost never on the top levels so if you don't want to wait 10 levels for your next class feature, you take a class that gets it immediately. *Shrug* I think that only speaks volumes of the Tier 4- class design (there are few exceptions like the Knight and the Rogue, which work out quite fine single-classed [save for Rogue level 20]).

Sophismata
2009-09-07, 03:34 AM
You mean standard action. Not all games start at level 14 and above. Even when you do get immediate action, it's still at level 14, blocks only a very few types of attacks, and you get 2 per day. While still doing nothing but small direct damage to anyone attacking you through it with melee, and even that is subject to SR.

As an immediate action, 4 times per day, raise two veils for 7 minutes that can do any one of the following:

Block everything (alternative: block all those listed below). Will save or end up on another plane.
Block all spells. Will save or insanity.
Block all divinations and mind-effecting effects. Save or be petrified.
Block all breath weapons. Save or die. 1d6 con damage on a successful save.
Block all gasses, clouds and petrification. 80 electric damage, save half.
Block all magical ranged attacks. 40 acid, save half.
Block all mundane ranged attacks. 20 fire, save half.

(You are still a full caster. Your own veils do not affect you.)

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-07, 06:23 AM
My favourite Io7V trick is to load up an enemy with spells and then Kaleidoscopic Doom him...

It's fun!

Kaiyanwang
2009-09-07, 06:50 AM
Please, think of the catgirls!

Too late.

Oh my.. never seen so much blood..

Jalor
2009-09-07, 07:06 AM
Tome of Battle. I have not yet played under a DM real-life who did not ban it for being "broken", and have only seen it in action on the internet despite being the most well-balanced book ever printed for 3.5. I've had DMs approve Incantatrixes, Warmage/Rainbow Servants, and Initiates of the Sevenfold Veil, but refuse to let someone be a Crusader. It's broken for an 8th level character to deal an extra 8d8 damage on a single melee attack that combat, but not to cast Black Tentacles an lock down an entire combat? Explain please.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-07, 07:16 AM
Explanation: humans are not logical creatures. Humans are beings of emotion and do not have the problem solving abilities they think they have.

Your DMs are human. They are not perfectly logical beings.

People get scared by lots of d6s, without stopping to think what that means. They'll think "8d6! That's 48 maximum damage!" without stopping to think that the minimum is eight, the chances of hitting either the maximum or minimum is one in ten million, seventy-seven thousand, six-hundred and ninety-six and the average is only 28.

Kaiyanwang
2009-09-07, 07:20 AM
Tome of Battle. I have not yet played under a DM real-life who did not ban it for being "broken".

You are lucky. I've never seen a paper copy in italian because the italian company that prints wotc books dropped planned 3.5 book when 4th edition was announced.

Nevertheless, my gaming group, we played years without it and we played happy meleers.

Not to say the book is useless- quite the opposite, and i LOVE tiger claw. I simply love it. (IHS is just fine without rule lawyers - that you'll ban anyway). My only beef with the book is the (ex) healing of the devoted spirit, IMHO is senseless (and I don't accept morale as an answer, sorry). But the book have 9 disciplines - take what you want and drop what does not fit with your world.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-07, 08:07 AM
Duskblade: deals too much damage with spell combos.

Seriously, the DM told me that.

I even asked what I gimped myself to straight 8's in stats? I just wanted to try it out.
He still said no so I went with dragon parehntage (1/2 dragon warlock). He has no issues with Warlock happily.

Yora
2009-09-07, 08:09 AM
You are lucky. I've never seen a paper copy in italian because the italian company that prints wotc books dropped planned 3.5 book when 4th edition was announced.
So it's apparently much better than the german prints. You could get the core books, some monster manuals and some of the completes. I think the FR and Eberron basic books, but that is it. I don't know anyone who actually uses the german books. We all get the english ones.

Kaiyanwang
2009-09-07, 08:13 AM
So it's apparently much better than the german prints. You could get the core books, some monster manuals and some of the completes. I think the FR and Eberron basic books, but that is it. I don't know anyone who actually uses the german books. We all get the english ones.

(sorry offtopic I'll end it now)

Some of us, we buy english books by internet or conventions , but I didn't see so many do it, or so many shop sell english books.

deuxhero
2009-09-07, 08:30 AM
If gravity doesn't exisit, what does the spell Reverse Gravity do?

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-07, 08:32 AM
If gravity doesn't exisit, what does the spell Reverse Gravity do?

It's named that because D&D spellcasters think gravity exists, even though it doesn't. :smallwink:

Diamondeye
2009-09-07, 08:43 AM
Because it is. Ever seen IHS? If you use the same logic casters use, then you can claim anything is an effect on you, and end it. Including the world. Including the galaxy. Including the universe.

At level 5, the warblade can end the universe as a standard action. Explain to me why that isn't broken?

Easy. Because, since the wording is vague anyhow, we can refer to this guy called the "DM" who can say "no".


Also, arcane swordsage. Time stop at will=batman wizard crying himself to sleep every night.

Arcane swordsage is really just a suggestion, not even a true alternate class. It says nothing about ToB overall.

Diamondeye
2009-09-07, 08:50 AM
Sure. Pounce Barbarian 1/fighter 4/prestige classes x y z is more powerful than Barbarian 20 or Fighter 20 in virtually all cases.

"More powerful than one particular base class" =/= broken.


With the exception of the druid, all tier 1 & 2 classes can be made better with prestige classes, usually dipping two or three. Tier 3 classes tend to be an exception, but those tend to be really well designed classes- duskblade, beguiler, psychic warrior, ToB stuff. Below tier 3, you get a lot more power out of multi-dipping, but that's because it's much easier to "move up", as you're at least halfway down the power ladder.

I think you may have missed the point of PrCs in the first place.

shadow_archmagi
2009-09-07, 08:54 AM
When I met my DM, he was steadfastly convinced that monks were broken and that wizards were not.

...

I played with them for five sessions, with an artificer in an ultra-low-wealth campaign.

He is no longer going to DM 3.5 ever again.

deuxhero
2009-09-07, 09:49 AM
Isn't the Master of the Nine from ToB also considered broken (in the truenamer sense) without cheese (UA bloodlines)? or are they fine beyond the completely misleading name?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-07, 09:53 AM
If gravity doesn't exisit, what does the spell Reverse Gravity do?

The graviton fluxuations caused by a reversal of the gravitational constant would cause the fabric of space-time to be punctured, leading to a tear in reality along the boarder of the anti-gravity field. The tachyon emissions would proceed to destroy the universe.

The name "Reverse Gravity" is a misnomer. What the spell actually does is create a force pushing upwards opposite to the downwards force experienced by everything on the plane. We can blame WotC for not being physicists and saddling us with improper phraseology.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-07, 10:00 AM
The ability to reverse gravity in a given area instantly creates a perpetual motion machine. The laws of physics aren't just violated, they're beaten and left for dead afterwards.

But, yknow....it's magic. Can't really try to get too realistic with physics in that sorta world.

shadow_archmagi
2009-09-07, 10:15 AM
I am totally going to make a character who utilizes reverse gravity for purposes of perpetual motion.

Cyclocone
2009-09-07, 10:56 AM
As an immediate action, 4 times per day, raise two veils for 7 minutes that can do any one of the following:

Block everything (alternative: block all those listed below). Will save or end up on another plane.
Block all spells. Will save or insanity.
Block all divinations and mind-effecting effects. Save or be petrified.
Block all breath weapons. Save or die. 1d6 con damage on a successful save.
Block all gasses, clouds and petrification. 80 electric damage, save half.
Block all magical ranged attacks. 40 acid, save half.
Block all mundane ranged attacks. 20 fire, save half.

(You are still a full caster. Your own veils do not affect you.)

And that's not even getting in to the whole "veils block AMF" headache.:smallsmile:

OracleofWuffing
2009-09-07, 11:11 AM
When I met my DM, he was steadfastly convinced that monks were broken and that wizards were not.
While we're talking about monks, certain people think Vow of Poverty monks are pretty broken. They don't typically think flying is a concern.

riddles
2009-09-07, 12:13 PM
psionics as a whole system. especially as most of the arguments against it boil down to people using the system wrong!

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-07, 12:16 PM
While we're talking about monks, certain people think Vow of Poverty monks are pretty broken. They don't typically think flying is a concern.

The Something Awful forums as a whole seem convinced that Vow of Poverty is horribly broken.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-07, 12:33 PM
As an immediate action, 4 times per day, raise two veils for 7 minutes that can do any one of the following:

Block everything (alternative: block all those listed below). Will save or end up on another plane.
Block all spells. Will save or insanity.
Block all divinations and mind-effecting effects. Save or be petrified.
Block all breath weapons. Save or die. 1d6 con damage on a successful save.
Block all gasses, clouds and petrification. 80 electric damage, save half.
Block all magical ranged attacks. 40 acid, save half.
Block all mundane ranged attacks. 20 fire, save half.

(You are still a full caster. Your own veils do not affect you.)

Once Again. Compare that to Wings of Cover:

Blocks: Everything.

Now, let's see what a level 13 IotSFV can do:

"As an standard action, 2 times per day, raise one veil for 3 minutes that can do any one of the following:

Block all gasses, clouds and petrification. 80 electric damage, save half.
Block all magical ranged attacks. 40 acid, save half.
Block all mundane ranged attacks. 20 fire, save half."

How about level 14 where it becomes immediate action and you get to add:
"Block all breath weapons. Save or die. 1d6 con damage on a successful save."

How may 9th level spells is a single veil worth?

At level 17, A IotSFV can raise 4 double veils each day. Or one per encounter.

A Shadowcraft mage on the other hand has 6 more 9th level spells than you, and can spontaneously cast spells prepared as something else into any Conjuration or Evocation spell at greater than 100% reality.

So is a single veil worth more than a 9th level spell? Because from where I sit, it's worth about a second level spell, called Wings of Cover.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-07, 01:03 PM
Trying to arbitrarily compare spell levels as if all spells of a given level were equally valuable is probably futile.

Iot7V is ridiculously powerful...you don't give up any caster progression for that, and at level 7 in it, you get nifty features like Kaleidoscopic Doom, which make a lot of 9th level spells look frankly weak.

In particular, Wings of Cover only blocks a specific attack. The veils can function against any number of attackers. It's a different style of defense.

Edit: oh...and it doesn't even burn the attackers action. He can opt to do something else instead. So...you're fine, but another one of your party members takes the hit instead. It's a good second level spell, sure, but it's not a replacement for an entire PrC.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-07, 01:16 PM
Edit: oh...and it doesn't even burn the attackers action. He can opt to do something else instead. So...you're fine, but another one of your party members takes the hit instead. It's a good second level spell, sure, but it's not a replacement for an entire PrC.

No. They can't. Immediate actions come out later. Wings of Cover burns the attackers action.

And yes, some 9th level spells suck. You don't cast them. You cast good ones. Which are better than veils. The opportunity cost is seven PrC levels three feats. There are a lot more things you can do with seven levels.

ZeroNumerous
2009-09-07, 01:26 PM
The Something Awful forums as a whole seem convinced that Vow of Poverty is horribly broken.

It is.

It's horribly, horribly broken.

I'd never allow a player to take Vow of Poverty.

It'd gimp them far too much.

:smalltongue:

Yukitsu
2009-09-07, 01:27 PM
No. They can't. Immediate actions come out later. Wings of Cover burns the attackers action.

And yes, some 9th level spells suck. You don't cast them. You cast good ones. Which are better than veils. The opportunity cost is seven PrC levels three feats. There are a lot more things you can do with seven levels.

Like? :smallconfused:

If it didn't give out caster levels, you'd have a good point, but since you have your ninths, I can't really see what you would be missing.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-07, 01:29 PM
Like? :smallconfused:

If it didn't give out caster levels, you'd have a good point, but since you have your ninths, I can't really see what you would be missing.

Umm.. Shadowcraft Mage. Incantatrix. Domains. Archmage.

Pick any two.

quick_comment
2009-09-07, 01:31 PM
Umm.. Shadowcraft Mage. Incantatrix. Domains. Archmage.

Pick any two.

You can still get Incantrix. Wizard 5/Incantrix 3/IotSV 7/Archmage 5.

You get metamagic effect, immediate action veils and spellpower/whatever you wanted from archmage. If you want domains, take the arcane disciple feat.

Yukitsu
2009-09-07, 01:37 PM
You only really want 1 of archmage. Maybe 2. I'd go with more incantrix, less archmage.

quick_comment
2009-09-07, 01:38 PM
You only really want 1 of archmage. Maybe 2. I'd go with more incantrix, less archmage.

W/e. The point is you can get more than just immediate action double veils.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-07, 01:54 PM
You can still get Incantrix. Wizard 5/Incantrix 3/IotSV 7/Archmage 5.

You get metamagic effect, immediate action veils and spellpower/whatever you wanted from archmage. If you want domains, take the arcane disciple feat.

If you have metamagic effect you don't need veils. If Incantatrix is in, I'd trade those levels of IotSFV for seven Incant levels. It's 5 more feats, and you have spells for defense that are already better than Veils.

Arcane Disciple. Well sucks terribly if you aren't Shadowcraft, since it needs Wisdom, and doesn't give Domain abilities. Why would you spend three feats and seven levels to get something easily replaceable with spells and not as good as what you can also get from those levels.

Yes, IotSFV is one of the best non game breaking PrCs. It is still much worse than Incantatrix and Shadowcraft, which both create a character that is just straight up so awesome that you have to redesign every encounter around this PrC's abilities. Not true for an IotSFV who just throws up a single defensive measure that isn't even level appropriate most of the time.

Yukitsu
2009-09-07, 01:59 PM
Umm.. Shadowcraft Mage. Incantatrix. Domains. Archmage.

Pick any two.

Explain to me what any of those can do, on a practical level, that an initiate cannot.

Simply put, you cannot. Any particular spell effect can be done just as well by the initiate, because they, like the rest of them, have ninth level spells.

You can say an incantrix can use spell combo bla bla bla that an initiate cannot use, but in nearly every case, you'll wind up with the same end to the problem at hand. Dead or disabled enemies, and complete invulnerability to everything. The fact that you used different spells to do so is entirely academic.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-07, 02:05 PM
Explain to me what any of those can do, on a practical level, that an initiate cannot.

Simply put, you cannot. Any particular spell effect can be done just as well by the initiate, because they, like the rest of them, have ninth level spells.

You can say an incantrix can use spell combo bla bla bla that an initiate cannot use, but in nearly every case, you'll wind up with the same end to the problem at hand. Dead or disabled enemies, and complete invulnerability to everything. The fact that you used different spells to do so is entirely academic.

Incantatrixes are immune to everything from level 8. Initiates are immune to nothing until level 14, and then only to crappy things. Why does no one look at what actaully exists? IotSFV is not a defensive power house. It's 2 encounters a day with a useful but not overpowering defense.

Shadowcraft Mages get double the 9th level spells, double the 8th, double the 7th, ect, and spontaneously cast.

Incantatrixes get a full suite of Persisted buffs that actually make them immune to everything.

IotSFV gets to wait 10 levels later to get Wings of Cover once an encounter except against melee attacks.

Both the other classes get Offense, Incantatrixes get better defense. Shadowcraft Mages get more spells. IotSFV spends 3 feats and seven class levels to get an effect not as good as a 7th level spell.

Yukitsu
2009-09-07, 02:23 PM
Incantatrixes are immune to everything from level 8. Initiates are immune to nothing until level 14, and then only to crappy things. Why does no one look at what actaully exists? IotSFV is not a defensive power house. It's 2 encounters a day with a useful but not overpowering defense.

Anything with full caster levels is fully immune to everything by 9, due to at will astral projection from lesser planar binding.


Shadowcraft Mages get double the 9th level spells, double the 8th, double the 7th, ect, and spontaneously cast.

Shadow craft mages get double spells of certain types. Of course you could use it for larger than life miracles, but then you can't honestly say you're getting a ninth level spell out of the deal. Other than that, no more powerful in my opinion than a level or 2 of archmage. More importantly, you don't actually need that many spells per day unless either you or your DM is going a bit too all out.


Incantatrixes get a full suite of Persisted buffs that actually make them immune to everything.

Not many worthwhile persistable buffs on the wizard list. Name some. In particular, names ones that are worthwhile before you get your ninth level etherealness. Also, mention ones that actually make you immune to everything. Not many of them are persistable. The ones that do can be made all day with cheap meta rods, and a high caster level, such as shapechange, which coincidently, can provide all the immunities you'll get from persistable spells, by going through the list of monsters for SU abilities.


IotSFV gets to wait 10 levels later to get Wings of Cover once an encounter except against melee attacks.

Actually, initiates do have a chance of stopping a melee attacker, so long as he is not already in melee range, and you have decent DCs on your veils. And unlike wings of cover, if you're doing anything right, this will not only stop the attacker, it will remove him from the encounter. Something wings can't do. That and wings of cover don't block 100 minutes of attacks of a type.


Both the other classes get Offense, Incantatrixes get better defense. Shadowcraft Mages get more spells. IotSFV spends 3 feats and seven class levels to get an effect not as good as a 7th level spell.

I'd argue that it's not worse. Wings of cover while a nice spell for negating an attack does not negate a large series of attacks over multiple rounds, does nothing in an offensive manner, and requires spell slots devoted to its use. On the contrary, few encounters will force you to draw from more than 2 colours, and in those cases, it lasts the entire encounter, can actually kill melee types, and requires no spells slots devoted to its specific useage.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-07, 03:45 PM
Not many worthwhile persistable buffs on the wizard list. Name some. In particular, names ones that are worthwhile before you get your ninth level etherealness. Also, mention ones that actually make you immune to everything. Not many of them are persistable.

Ray Deflection, Greater Blink, Greater Invis, Superior Invis, Greater Ironguard.


The ones that do can be made all day with cheap meta rods, and a high caster level, such as shapechange, which coincidently, can provide all the immunities you'll get from persistable spells, by going through the list of monsters for SU abilities.

You can only be one form at a time. And basically nothing offers Ray Deflection or Greater Blink or Superior Invis or Greater Ironguard.


Actually, initiates do have a chance of stopping a melee attacker, so long as he is not already in melee range, and you have decent DCs on your veils.

Oh, so if they are only non level appropriate enemies who don't have SR and have low saving throws. You can stop their melee attacks. Or when facing enemies that don't suck, you can watch them punch you through the veils.

Please keep in mine you can't even kill anyone at all until level 15, and then only if they have crappy fort saves and no SR. Which applies to... None of the MM.


And unlike wings of cover, if you're doing anything right, this will not only stop the attacker, it will remove him from the encounter. Something wings can't do. That and wings of cover don't block 100 minutes of attacks of a type.

It won't ever remove the opponent if it's level appropriate. And it blocks one or two types of attacks, but that doesn't help much because after the first one, they can just use different attack types or attack other people.

Of course, at levels 1-13, they can just never waste a single action, because you don't have immediate action defenses.


I'd argue that it's not worse. Wings of cover while a nice spell for negating an attack does not negate a large series of attacks over multiple rounds, does nothing in an offensive manner, and requires spell slots devoted to its use. On the contrary, few encounters will force you to draw from more than 2 colours, and in those cases, it lasts the entire encounter, can actually kill melee types, and requires no spells slots devoted to its specific useage.

Yes. It absolutely doesn't cost spells slots. Of course, Wings of Cover doesn't cost 6 9th level spell slots. Which is about half the opportunity cost IotSFV.

Yukitsu
2009-09-07, 04:09 PM
Ray Deflection, Greater Blink, Greater Invis, Superior Invis, Greater Ironguard.

None are relevant with all day etherealness, which is level 9. So you could burn through all those spells flaunting the free metamagic, or you could get your horse to use its at will ability and grant you the same.


You can only be one form at a time. And basically nothing offers Ray Deflection or Greater Blink or Superior Invis or Greater Ironguard.

See above. As well, shapechange actually does allow you to grab supernaturals, as argued by char op. You lose spell likes, extraordinary abilities and physical features, but it does not say that you lose innate supernatural abilities when you shift forms from one to another using shapechange. Although I do admit a reasonable reading of this means you don't lose your base supernatural abilities before the shapechange.


Oh, so if they are only non level appropriate enemies who don't have SR

I'm confused. SR is a problem now? :smallconfused: When's the last time any listed value of SR in the monster manual gave you a problem?


and have low saving throws. You can stop their melee attacks. Or when facing enemies that don't suck, you can watch them punch you through the veils.

Not really. A typical competent monster will fail on their weak save about 1/4 of the time, if they have a really high poor save. A full round attack at a veil or two is pretty much guaranteed to A) kill him B) confuse him C) planeshift him.


Please keep in mine you can't even kill anyone at all until level 15, and then only if they have crappy fort saves and no SR. Which applies to... None of the MM.

Evidently, you have difficulty achieving high intelligence characters. 18 start, 20 race, 23 levels, 29 item, 2 luhix, and 1 point damage. DC 28 at level 15. Ability focus: veils as a level 15 feat makes it DC 30.

Looking at dragons, since I doubt you'll be happy with CR 15, I'm looking at CR 19s. All of which are dragons for no particularly good reason. Ancient black dragon, +23 fortitude. With a protection from alignment spell of your type, that's a +25, or he fails 1/4 of the time. This is a very difficult encounter, BTW. Every attack he makes takes a 25% chance of death. And he's 4 CRs above this guy's solo ECL.

The highest save of the level is a white dragon wyrm, with SR of 25 (in other words, autobypassed by my non-conjurer casters.) and a save of +25.


It won't ever remove the opponent if it's level appropriate. And it blocks one or two types of attacks, but that doesn't help much because after the first one, they can just use different attack types or attack other people.

Same dragon here, options are melee, breath (both are a poor decision when attacking a green veil, BTW.) or week magic. He could try AMF, but that doesn't work on veils. It does, happily enough work on wings of cover. He could use any number of piddly weak attacks that won't really threaten a level 15 caster, basically. Same goes for the other dragons CR 19, who are also level 11 casters.


Of course, at levels 1-13, they can just never waste a single action, because you don't have immediate action defenses.

To be fair, none of them are what they are until 5, shadow casters don't gain much extra until later, and incantrix can't pull meta shenanigans until later anyway. None of their major tricks are bigger or earlier than etherealness at 9 for defense, and none of them are major in the field of offense.


Yes. It absolutely doesn't cost spells slots. Of course, Wings of Cover doesn't cost 6 9th level spell slots. Which is about half the opportunity cost IotSFV.

I'd have to ask how few castings you honestly think you can get away with of this spell. I've used it in play, and frankly, it's not anywhere near the level of power that you seem to portray it as. I for one, get attacked by more than one attack in a round on a frequent basis, often of the same, or of a predictable type. So much so that I would indeed have to burn several extra slots in a difficult encounter.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-07, 05:59 PM
None are relevant with all day etherealness, which is level 9. So you could burn through all those spells flaunting the free metamagic, or you could get your horse to use its at will ability and grant you the same.

So you advoacte completely giving up your ability to cast spells on enemies. Why not just use Teleport if you are going to contribute zero to offense?


I'm confused. SR is a problem now? :smallconfused: When's the last time any listed value of SR in the monster manual gave you a problem?

When was the last time you faced Stock MM opposition while playing a non Core Heavily optimized Wizard?


Evidently, you have difficulty achieving high intelligence characters. 18 start, 20 race, 23 levels, 29 item, 2 luhix, and 1 point damage. DC 28 at level 15. Ability focus: veils as a level 15 feat makes it DC 30.

Evidently you think insulting people is an appropriate solution to your problems.

So, we now have another feat spent, in addition to the 3 you already spent to get into the class, then you also have a +2 luhix bonus to Int, and a +1 point damage bonus to Int. Which are things I have never heard of.

So... Back to reality, you have an Int score of 29 and a DC 27 veil. Which doesn't compare favorably to the +21/+14/+19 of the CR 14 Nalfeshnee. Or the Trumpet Archons +20/+17/+17, both of which are immune to the Green and Blue and Yellow Veils.

And do I need to remind you again that you only get one Veil at level 15, and you don't even get the Confuse or Planeshift ones.

By the way SR 22 and 29 at level 15. Since you've been spending all your feats on pre reqs and ability focus, you probably don't have CL boosts against SR, and you almost certainly can't afford an Orange Ioun Stone, but let's assume you have one anyway, your CL is 16, so you have a 30 and 65% chance that your veil does nothing to them anyway. And that's Stock MM.


To be fair, none of them are what they are until 5, shadow casters don't gain much extra until later, and incantrix can't pull meta shenanigans until later anyway. None of their major tricks are bigger or earlier than etherealness at 9 for defense, and none of them are major in the field of offense.

Level 8: Persisted buffs that also allow you to attack back.
Level 5: The first level you can be a Shadowcraft mage who spontaneously casts Conjurations spells of your highest level.

Yukitsu
2009-09-07, 06:43 PM
So you advoacte completely giving up your ability to cast spells on enemies. Why not just use Teleport if you are going to contribute zero to offense?

You can contribute. You simply have to use other spells in addition to do anything from there. Such examples include leading around undead, outsiders, etc. or using astral projection when you have a demi plane. Heck, if you can make a safe fortress on the astral, you could astral project as low as the level that persisting any of those spells is possible.


When was the last time you faced Stock MM opposition while playing a non Core Heavily optimized Wizard?

That is why I increased the CR by 4 in the below example.


So, we now have another feat spent, in addition to the 3 you already spent to get into the class, then you also have a +2 luhix bonus to Int, and a +1 point damage bonus to Int. Which are things I have never heard of.

Damage isn't a bonus. Luhix is in the book of vile darkness. It gives a +2 bonus to all stats, but you take 1 point of stat damage to all stats.


So... Back to reality, you have an Int score of 29 and a DC 27 veil. Which doesn't compare favorably to the +21/+14/+19 of the CR 14 Nalfeshnee. Or the Trumpet Archons +20/+17/+17, both of which are immune to the Green and Blue and Yellow Veils.

Just because, as I said, you don't have the knowledge to fully increase intelligence on characters doesn't mean others can't, and as such, your dismissal is rather premature. As well, as the save triggers for each attack with a non-reach weapon, it rather does make a significant difference. Even the damage in those instances is enough to cause significant harm to one of those creatures. The fact that you get cover and they don't is a nice plus, as if you are significantly hurt, you could always just hide.


And do I need to remind you again that you only get one Veil at level 15, and you don't even get the Confuse or Planeshift ones.

Yes, however, you have dismissed the class in full, not just at 15.


By the way SR 22 and 29 at level 15. Since you've been spending all your feats on pre reqs and ability focus, you probably don't have CL boosts against SR, and you almost certainly can't afford an Orange Ioun Stone, but let's assume you have one anyway, your CL is 16, so you have a 30 and 65% chance that your veil does nothing to them anyway. And that's Stock MM.

No, I just take arcane mastery. 1 more feat. Also, an orange ioun stone costs 30K, and a level 15 character has 150K. I fail to see why that's so far beyond reach. If necessary, I can use true casting before casting it, though the likelyhood that I would do so is fairly low.

Of course, the highest I can find in core is a 25 at level 15. What were you looking at? Incidently, the same as what you see at 19. A caster can of course, cast it themselves, and get just enough for arcane mastery to automatically defeat, assuming NPC wealth per level, and having a single item worth only a fifth of my WBL, or less than a 7th, if you get the ring.


Level 8: Persisted buffs that also allow you to attack back.
Level 5: The first level you can be a Shadowcraft mage who spontaneously casts Conjurations spells of your highest level.

Which persistable buffs are available at 8? Because none of the ones you mentioned as necessary for invincibility are. At any rate, the DC to do so is 10X3+18, or a DC 48. Attainable at that level, but you're spending more than you're letting on. (11x2 from ranks and a feat, 8 easily from intelligence, still off by 18.)

Also, I remembered to check the text for those spells. Several, such as greater invisibility, which is available this level, are not legitimate spells for persist, though I may be wrong if they added some errata on the feat. They have variable range, and are not personal, making it impossible to persist them.

I've also said that I'm not at all concerned about spontaneous conjurations. Twice saves on a these conjurations makes the majority of good conjurations somewhat less worthwhile.

Also, you can't get that at fifth. You need 4th level illusions to get into that class. It's level 8 minimum. I also forgot that you don't get that ability until third level of shadowcrafter, meaning you don't get that until level 11. Not level 5.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-07, 06:45 PM
Transdimensional Spell is a great feat if you're going to spend your whole day ethereal.

Skorj
2009-09-07, 06:50 PM
I see the "things that aren't broken" thread has devolved into arguing over which of 2 broken things is more broken. :smallfrown:

Myou
2009-09-07, 06:59 PM
I see the "things that aren't broken" thread has devolved into arguing over which of 2 broken things is more broken. :smallfrown:

Standard forum procedure. :smallsigh:

Kelpstrand
2009-09-07, 07:00 PM
Just because, as I said, you don't have the knowledge to fully increase intelligence on characters doesn't mean others can't, and as such, your dismissal is rather premature. As well, as the save triggers for each attack with a non-reach weapon, it rather does make a significant difference. Even the damage in those instances is enough to cause significant harm to one of those creatures. The fact that you get cover and they don't is a nice plus, as if you are significantly hurt, you could always just hide.

Just because I don't assume 3.0 evil only spells that only help when you have an odd stat are universal does not mean I don't have the knowledge to have high Int. Since my example Int score was -1 compared to yours. Heck if you are bringing in BoVD, you can have a +12 enhancement bonus to Int too.


Yes, however, you have dismissed the class in full, not just at 15.

I "dismissed" the class as the third best Caster PrC. I also dismiss Ray of Stupidity as the third best 2nd level spell. (It's probably more like 6th, but I'm not going to actually go through the list for this example.)

At higher levels, you are dealing with higher level enemies, with higher saves, and often immunity to mind affecting, or the ability to Plane shift.


Of course, the highest I can find in core is a 25 at level 15.

Then you should look harder, since CR 10 Rakashas have SR 27, and CR 14 Trumpet Archons, you know, the example I just gave you, have SR 29.


Which persistable buffs are available at 8? Because none of the ones you mentioned as necessary for invincibility are.

Greater Blink/Greater Mirror Image. Which is decidedly better than Etherealness, seeing as you can still actually contribute.


They have variable range

No they don't.


Also, you can't get that at fifth. You need 4th level illusions to get into that class. It's level 8 minimum. I also forgot that you don't get that ability until third level of shadowcrafter, meaning you don't get that until level 11. Not level 5.

You are already running Earth spell shenanigans, so you are already casting level 3 spells at level 3. With Sanctum, you are casting level 4. And at level 6 you get the ability to Spontaneously cast. Retrain Sanctum at level 5 for whatever you want.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-07, 07:47 PM
If you have metamagic effect you don't need veils. If Incantatrix is in, I'd trade those levels of IotSFV for seven Incant levels. It's 5 more feats, and you have spells for defense that are already better than Veils.

Arcane Disciple. Well sucks terribly if you aren't Shadowcraft, since it needs Wisdom, and doesn't give Domain abilities. Why would you spend three feats and seven levels to get something easily replaceable with spells and not as good as what you can also get from those levels.

Yes, IotSFV is one of the best non game breaking PrCs. It is still much worse than Incantatrix and Shadowcraft, which both create a character that is just straight up so awesome that you have to redesign every encounter around this PrC's abilities. Not true for an IotSFV who just throws up a single defensive measure that isn't even level appropriate most of the time.

The ability to make a "you shall not pass" area can break plenty of encounters, and definitely must be planned for.

But you, you could have almost all of incantrix in addition to full IoT7V(or full incan, nearly full IoT7V if you prefer). You may not NEED the veils in addition to the metamagic goodness, but hey, long as we're breaking things, why not?

The entrance requirements are significant, but they're not a complete waste. Spell focus/GSF never really are.

Yukitsu
2009-09-07, 08:23 PM
Just because I don't assume 3.0 evil only spells that only help when you have an odd stat are universal does not mean I don't have the knowledge to have high Int. Since my example Int score was -1 compared to yours. Heck if you are bringing in BoVD, you can have a +12 enhancement bonus to Int too.

Spells are questionable, as you are required to play a specific alignment to a specific degree. Luhix is just a drug. If I were willing to ever play a vile character, I would consider those. Much like how I know a taint based caster is better than any of these three, I just don't care to mention it.


At higher levels, you are dealing with higher level enemies, with higher saves, and often immunity to mind affecting, or the ability to Plane shift.

I've rarely seen ones with all of the above.


Then you should look harder, since CR 10 Rakashas have SR 27, and CR 14 Trumpet Archons, you know, the example I just gave you, have SR 29.

I said at 15. Those are not exactly challenging encounters, veils or not. What with how they have lower than ECL CRs that should be evident. A Rakshasa couldn't get past even a few skeletons (dealing only d4+1 and d6 per hit is not impressive), and a trumpet archon has saves in the low to mid 10s, deals low damage, and has almost nothing but defensive buffs. If you do happen to succeed in beating its SR, it's save vs. your poison is low enough that it will fail. If that isn't enough, it doesn't deal enough damage to prevent you from simply hitting it with a spell that can kill it. Probably the same one that the incantrix or killer gnome would use, because both of them require as many feats to properly function and both of them have similar spell penetration, except the gnome, who likely has higher, but also is less likely to have SR ignoring orbs prepared. The incantrix ironically, is superior on offense here, the typical initiate in the middle, and the typical shadow caster is worst.


Greater Blink/Greater Mirror Image. Which is decidedly better than Etherealness, seeing as you can still actually contribute.

No they don't.

Touch is not a set range. As soon as you get longer arms, the range changes. As well, one can always use astral projection from 9 instead, though I've never really liked that one. Probably because my DM sends things tailored to cut the silver chord after me.


You are already running Earth spell shenanigans, so you are already casting level 3 spells at level 3. With Sanctum, you are casting level 4. And at level 6 you get the ability to Spontaneously cast. Retrain Sanctum at level 5 for whatever you want.

When that nonsense is available, you can use cleric 1, wizard 2 and get ninth level arcane spell slots, simply using sanctum and divine meta heighten, with extra spell slot at level 3. Then go into shadow crafter 5, incantrix 1, initiate 7, incantrix 4. Even with only initiate, when you head into this level of broken, there is no longer any difference between them in power (which is to say "absolute" in all cases)

As well, retraining explicitly requires you prove you could qualify for the feats when you took the level. In your case, it's a pre-req at the time you had it, and as such, cannot be retrained. Perfectly viable for this build anyway to have it, though it simply shows that the build requires a larger degree of feat dependancy than the initiate.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-07, 08:49 PM
a trumpet archon has saves in the low to mid 10s, deals low damage, and has almost nothing but defensive buffs. If you do happen to succeed in beating its SR, it's save vs. your poison is low enough that it will fail.

1) it has saves of +20/+17/+17 minimum, being a Cleric.
2) It is immune to Poison, being, you know, a Cleric.
3) Trumpet Archons are pretty challenging for CR 14 encounters. Especially since you can use them as is with feat and spell changes to play for different tactics.


Touch is not a set range. As soon as you get longer arms, the range changes. As well, one can always use astral projection from 9 instead, though I've never really liked that one. Probably because my DM sends things tailored to cut the silver chord after me.

It is 0ft from your body. 30ft Radius Emanation is not a set range, as soon as your size changes, the range changes.


As well, retraining explicitly requires you prove you could qualify for the feats when you took the level. In your case, it's a pre-req at the time you had it, and as such, cannot be retrained.

You can qualify for whatever feat you sub in for sanctum at that level. Using feats to gain high spell levels and then retraining them when you reach those spell levels has been a known exploit since PHB II came out.

Stephen_E
2009-09-07, 09:03 PM
Since it wasn't mentioned in the 1st 2 pages, or the last.

Spiked Chain has got to be one of the top
"Things people think are broken but aren't"

I've seen all the claims -
"It's the only core Exotic Weapon people spend a feat on so it muct be broken"

"It's a 2HW that you can Weapon Finnesse so it's broken"

"It's got reach and adjacent so it's broken"

"It's got trip so it's broken"

"you can do "x" so it's broken" where "x" is something that the rules don't actually allow.

"Fighter aren't completely underpowered with Spiked Chains, so it's broken"

"Spiked Chain is completely unrealistic so it's broken" (note: These people never have a problem with magic)

Stephen E

Sholos
2009-09-08, 12:03 AM
Um, Shapechange specifically says you lose any Supernatural abilities when you change.

oxinabox
2009-09-08, 01:12 AM
Ever heard the saying that
"only wizards and druids can have nice things?"

I hate it when things (esp game mechanic things) are justified just 'cos there 'magic'.
remember kid, warrioir types can't be allowed to compeate on a fair playing field with casters.

Hi, I'm a wizard, one of my lvl 1 spells replaces that skill you've been putting max ranks in every lvl.

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-08, 01:39 AM
Hi, I'm a wizard, one of my lvl 1 spells replaces that skill you've been putting max ranks in every lvl.

...And it can do things now that you won't even be able to do after you hit epic.

Aotrs Commander
2009-09-08, 09:00 AM
I once read a thread by a poor player whose DM thought the SOULKNIFE was broken such that he had to nerf it. Because it had a magic weapon...

I mean seriously, the freakin' SOULKNIFE!

The mind boggles...

Signmaker
2009-09-08, 09:41 AM
I once read a thread by a poor player whose DM thought the SOULKNIFE was broken such that he had to nerf it. Because it had a magic weapon...

I mean seriously, the freakin' SOULKNIFE!

The mind boggles...

The way our group works is that the DM insists that the soulknife isn't weak solely due to the fact that they free up WBL and can thus distribute it elsewhere. What usually ends up happening is that the soulknife player buys almost nothing, somehow doesn't die, and gets an airship piloted by cubi. Somehow.

So yeah, apparently soulknife is broken. :smallamused:

Aotrs Commander
2009-09-08, 05:48 PM
I'd post the link to the thread, but WotC's new cruddy boards don't have the archives yet, and trying to get it through google appears to divert the links to the new homepage...One assumes this is because they're still fiddling, but I have to say they my impressions so far are not favourable. (What the heck kind of boards don't have any VB code tags?!)

Seffbasilisk
2009-09-08, 08:05 PM
I had to threaten to beat a player with a PHB before he stopped calling the Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords the Book of Broken Rules.

I've had Warlocks called broken because most of thier abilities are at-will.

I've know some to profess Monks are broken.

And I had a DM take me aside before a game, tell me that I had to have a nerf because the character I was playing was just too powerful. Said character?

Halfling Rogue.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-08, 08:14 PM
I had to threaten to beat a player with a PHB before he stopped calling the Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords the Book of Broken Rules.

I've had Warlocks called broken because most of thier abilities are at-will.

I've know some to profess Monks are broken.

And I had a DM take me aside before a game, tell me that I had to have a nerf because the character I was playing was just too powerful. Said character?

Halfling Rogue.

Could you further explain what was so strong? too much damage, too many dodged reflex saves, or too many gtood skill checks?

Something must have went off to make him think that.

Dixieboy
2009-09-08, 08:21 PM
"Spiked Chain is completely unrealistic so it's broken" (note: These people never have a problem with magic)

Stephen E

I can see their angle though.

I personally don't mind magic, but the Dire flail makes me go :smallconfused:

Faleldir
2009-09-08, 08:32 PM
Flaws. Yes, you are getting something for nothing. So what? Thanks to 3e's feat chains, you only spend those extra slots on useless prerequisites that should never have been separate feats in the first place. Anything that would be overpowered can't be taken at level 1 anyway.

quick_comment
2009-09-08, 08:35 PM
Flaws. Yes, you are getting something for nothing. So what? Thanks to 3e's feat chains, you only spend those extra slots on useless prerequisites that should never have been separate feats in the first place. Anything that would be overpowered can't be taken at level 1 anyway.

Dragonwrought.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-08, 08:57 PM
Also, Metamagic.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-08, 09:11 PM
Flaws. Yes, you are getting something for nothing. So what? Thanks to 3e's feat chains, you only spend those extra slots on useless prerequisites that should never have been separate feats in the first place. Anything that would be overpowered can't be taken at level 1 anyway.

I agree, flaws aren't so bad...provided you follow the rule and take a flaw that has actual mechanical downsides for your character. Yes, some of the homebrewed ones are absolutely terrible. Fear of penguins (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Sphenisciphobia_(3.5e_Flaw))? Really?

Also, taking a flaw is like painting a target on your face. You *know* your DM is going to be dry on ideas sometime and suddenly remember your dehabilitating fear/desire.

quick_comment
2009-09-08, 09:12 PM
I agree, flaws aren't so bad...provided you follow the rule and take a flaw that has actual mechanical downsides for your character. Yes, some of the homebrewed ones are absolutely terrible. Fear of penguins (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Sphenisciphobia_(3.5e_Flaw))? Really?

Also, taking a flaw is like painting a target on your face. You *know* your DM is going to be dry on ideas sometime and suddenly remember your dehabilitating fear/desire.

The problem with flaws is that you know what your character will do. A wizard for instance, has nearly no need to every worry about -2 on melee attacks.

Think of it this way: Every optimized character takes as many flaws as the DM will allow.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-08, 09:13 PM
"Oh no! I have to roll twice vs concealment and take the worse roll! Lucky I'm a Dragonfire Adept..."

Tyndmyr
2009-09-08, 09:15 PM
The problem with flaws is that you know what your character will do. A wizard for instance, has nearly no need to every worry about -2 on melee attacks.

Think of it this way: Every optimized character takes as many flaws as the DM will allow.

Of course, because optimized characters are going to specialize.

-2 to melee still has risks, though. Touch attacks being the obvious one.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-08, 09:21 PM
Of course, because optimized characters are going to specialize.

-2 to melee still has risks, though. Touch attacks being the obvious one.

Reach Spell. Archmage. Recaster. Three very easy ways to change any Touch spell into a Ray.

quick_comment
2009-09-08, 09:36 PM
And most offensive touch spells arent worth using, because they force you into melee.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-08, 09:43 PM
Right, you can circumvent nearly any flaw, but doing so requires resources.

Of course, it's probably less of a concern at high levels, but early on, it'll likely be noticeable. And not every flaw is as easy to circumvent.

quick_comment
2009-09-08, 09:44 PM
Right, you can circumvent nearly any flaw, but doing so requires resources.


No, it doesnt. Go ahead, name some good wizard spells that are melee touch spells. Spells better than their ranged equivalent. The only one I can think of is bestow curse and bestow greater curse, and even then, its nothing a wizard needs.

oxinabox
2009-09-08, 09:45 PM
halfing rogue is terrible OP, compaired to umm, Halfling warrior.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-08, 09:46 PM
No, it doesnt. Go ahead, name some good wizard spells that are melee touch spells. Spells better than their ranged equivalent. The only one I can think of is bestow curse and bestow greater curse, and even then, its nothing a wizard needs.

Enlarge Person :smalltongue:

Lamech
2009-09-08, 09:59 PM
No, it doesnt. Go ahead, name some good wizard spells that are melee touch spells. Spells better than their ranged equivalent. The only one I can think of is bestow curse and bestow greater curse, and even then, its nothing a wizard needs.

Shivering touch. How else are you supposed to one shot the great red wyrm?

Tyndmyr
2009-09-08, 10:02 PM
It's like picking a focus school. You absolutely can minimize the effect that will have on a finished build, trading mostly stuff you don't use for the stuff you prefer.

It's still a trade though, and even if it's a good one, it's not entirely one sided.

That said, I must confess that my arena character does have that flaw.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-08, 10:11 PM
I actually was playing in a game and found a flaw Pride of Arms, which adds a fairly significant penalty to attack and damage rolls if you're using a non-martial weapon. I said to the DM: "I'm going to be using a Rapier and Kukri, I'll never make an attack with a non-martial weapon; is this still OK?" - to which he said yes. At which point, I have to say... why not just give extra feats? Extra feats, I think would be a good thing. I'd say two level 1 feats (three if human), and (noncaster_level/2)+(spellcaster_level/3) regular progression feats, or something.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-08, 10:30 PM
I actually was playing in a game and found a flaw Pride of Arms, which adds a fairly significant penalty to attack and damage rolls if you're using a non-martial weapon. I said to the DM: "I'm going to be using a Rapier and Kukri, I'll never make an attack with a non-martial weapon; is this still OK?" - to which he said yes. At which point, I have to say... why not just give extra feats? Extra feats, I think would be a good thing. I'd say two level 1 feats (three if human), and (noncaster_level/2)+(spellcaster_level/3) regular progression feats, or something.

1) I wholly and completely support free feats.

2) Why not just give Spellcasters the same number of feats but combine a bunch of non spellcaster feats: IE PB shot is now PB + precise. TWFing is now every TWFing feat in the chain. Ect?

VKO
2009-09-08, 10:31 PM
And most offensive touch spells arent worth using, because they force you into melee.

Introducing: Combust!

Kill one thing dead at low levels with the most efficient per level cast in the game! It has no saving throw and it lights things on fire! Throw it in a spellstoring weapon and watch the fighter cry with joy!

And the best part is, this spell can be yours for the low low price of a 2nd level spell slot!

Tyndmyr
2009-09-08, 10:32 PM
I also support a few free feats.

Hell, Im considering inventing a mechanism to allow characters to trade stat points for feats(They are, IMO, highly overstatted. Too high of a point buy). At low level, feats aren't all that game breaking, and they do add a nice customized feel.

Sholos
2009-09-08, 10:33 PM
I actually was playing in a game and found a flaw Pride of Arms, which adds a fairly significant penalty to attack and damage rolls if you're using a non-martial weapon. I said to the DM: "I'm going to be using a Rapier and Kukri, I'll never make an attack with a non-martial weapon; is this still OK?" - to which he said yes. At which point, I have to say... why not just give extra feats? Extra feats, I think would be a good thing. I'd say two level 1 feats (three if human), and (noncaster_level/2)+(spellcaster_level/3) regular progression feats, or something.

Well, you think you'll never use a non-martial weapon. I doubt Roy ever saw himself using a greatclub.

And yes, I know that's a martial weapon, but my point is that you never know when you're going to be forced into something weird.

Seffbasilisk
2009-09-08, 10:39 PM
Could you further explain what was so strong? too much damage, too many dodged reflex saves, or too many gtood skill checks?

Something must have went off to make him think that.

It was level...8 I believe, and with me putting all of my points in dex (starting 18) and gloves of dex +2, I had a dex of 22. The second highest stat in the party was 17.

The entire group was terrible at character building, I could have made a CW Samurai and made him look overpowered. Seeing as my first DM was a Royal Jackass, coupled with my paranoia...just about every character I make can be a single-handed TPK if s/he so chose.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-08, 10:51 PM
Shivering touch. How else are you supposed to one shot the great red wyrm?

That's an exception: You can legitimately run up and sock it to him. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main.DidYouJustPunchOutCthulhu)

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-08, 11:52 PM
Shivering touch. How else are you supposed to one shot the great red wyrm?

You want to Reach that because getting next to a dragon is very bad.

Eldariel
2009-09-09, 01:03 AM
You want to Reach that because getting next to a dragon is very bad.

Unless said Dragon dies before it does anything. Besides, calmly walking up to a colossal Dragon, poking it and having it go limb is just too awesome an image.

peacenlove
2009-09-09, 02:55 AM
You want to Reach that because getting next to a dragon is very bad.

Also make sure he doesn't have the [cold] subtype or a minor globe of invurnerability up. Or isn't a disguised dragon lich :smallamused:

FMArthur
2009-09-09, 02:56 AM
Unless said Dragon dies before it does anything. Besides, calmly walking up to a colossal Dragon, poking it and having it go limb is just too awesome an image.

Sending in the rest of your party to get wrecked by the dragon's AoOs so that you can touch it, unharmed, is a surprisingly unpopular strategy in my groups.

Eldariel
2009-09-09, 03:55 AM
Sending in the rest of your party to get wrecked by the dragon's AoOs so that you can touch it, unharmed, is a surprisingly unpopular strategy in my groups.

Psh, so take your AoO like the Wizard that you are and slay the Dragon. One AoO ain't killing you.

sofawall
2009-09-09, 04:00 AM
Especially not with Greater Mirror Image, Greater Blink and Blur active...

woodenbandman
2009-09-09, 09:29 AM
Don't forget that the dragon is an optimized sorceror besides and probably has scintillating scales and crap.

Scintillating scales is the bane of everyone.

ZeroNumerous
2009-09-09, 09:44 AM
2) Why not just give Spellcasters the same number of feats but combine a bunch of non spellcaster feats: IE PB shot is now PB + precise. TWFing is now every TWFing feat in the chain. Ect?

Because a spellcaster benefits from feats more than non-spellcasters. I'd personally got with level/4 or level/5 were I giving out free feats.


I've know some to profess Monks are broken.

S'true. Broken to the point of almost being unplayable. Using it as nothing but a two level dip makes it playable though.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-09, 10:14 AM
Because a spellcaster benefits from feats more than non-spellcasters. I'd personally got with level/4 or level/5 were I giving out free feats.

Only because non spellcaster feats mostly suck. Which is why you fix them.

In fact, as is, Spellcasters don't even benefit more from feats, they benefit just as much.

ZeroNumerous
2009-09-09, 10:31 AM
In fact, as is, Spellcasters don't even benefit more from feats, they benefit just as much.

No. Metamagic.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-09, 10:45 AM
I agree, flaws aren't so bad...provided you follow the rule and take a flaw that has actual mechanical downsides for your character. Yes, some of the homebrewed ones are absolutely terrible. Fear of penguins (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Sphenisciphobia_(3.5e_Flaw))? Really?


Haven't you heard of the feared Penguin Knights? They are feared acrss the land
Remember you auto shaken when you see a penguin.

ZeroNumerous
2009-09-09, 10:47 AM
Haven't you heard of the feared Penguin Knights? They are feared acrss the land
Remember you auto shaken when you see a penguin.

Dire Penguin (http://pic.pbsrc.com/spacer.gif)

Dire Penguin falls. Everyone dies.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-09, 10:50 AM
Sending in the rest of your party to get wrecked by the dragon's AoOs so that you can touch it, unharmed, is a surprisingly unpopular strategy in my groups.

Isnt that what summoned mobs are for?

FMArthur
2009-09-09, 11:15 AM
Psh, so take your AoO like the Wizard that you are and slay the Dragon. One AoO ain't killing you.


Especially not with Greater Mirror Image, Greater Blink and Blur active...


Isnt that what summoned mobs are for?

Yeah, yeah. You can make all kinds of defenses, but it takes precious rounds of combat. Dragons don't really need all that much time to cause trouble while you're busy. I'm not saying your party is usually incompetent and solely dependent on the wizard, but while you get ready to enter the fight they're down one member. You can usually take a round out to protect yourself in combat, but against certain types of foes (like dragons), you need more protection than you can usually get in a single round and they are capable of causing a lot more damage than usual even in that single round.

Ernir
2009-09-09, 12:43 PM
No. Metamagic.

Speaking of that.


I say metamagic is one of the things often wrongly believed to be overpowered.

Metamagic cost reducers, on the other hand...

Kelpstrand
2009-09-09, 12:52 PM
No. Metamagic.

No, metamagic without cost reducers isn't a big deal at all.

Shocktrooper, Trip Chains, Travel Devotion, metabreath feats

Non casters benefit as much as casters from more feats. Casters just start from a better chassis.

ZeroNumerous
2009-09-09, 02:04 PM
No, metamagic without cost reducers isn't a big deal at all.

Two spells a round (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#quickenSpell). Reach Spell: Turning Shivering Touch into a Ray. Split Ray: Two spells in one action. Twin Spell: Two spells, again, in one action.

Sure, without cost reducers you're 'merely' using 5th or lower level spells. But the thing is: You're still ending encounters as a swift action or throwing out two encounter-ending spells in one turn. Compared to that, what feat does a non-caster get that ends an encounter?

Even when you first get 4th or 5th level spells. 1st Level Spell and a 5th level spell in the same round can easily end an encounter. A split ray'd 2nd level spell can very easily end an encounter.

No. A free metamagic feat every 3rd level is far greater than anything non-casters can bring to the table with feats every other level.


Shocktrooper, Trip Chains

The other two feats are for casters. But Shock Trooper, Combat Expertise and Improved Trip compared to picking up Quicken, Reach, Split Ray and/or Twin spell? No: the caster comes out far ahead in comparison.


I say metamagic is one of the things often wrongly believed to be overpowered.

More accurately that it's wrongly blamed. Metamagic on it's own isn't as bad since you're not looking at more than 7 feats barring Chaos Shuffle, Flaws or other "free feat" grabs. That makes metamagic manageable since it's smaller part of your toolbox. The real problem is that metamagic comes with spells, and a majority of those are broken.

None the less: My point is not that metamagic is broken. Simply that a caster gets far more utility and power out of any one metamagic pick than a non-caster will get out of one feat pick.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-09, 02:12 PM
Sure, without cost reducers you're 'merely' using 5th or lower level spells. But the thing is: You're still ending encounters as a swift action or throwing out two encounter-ending spells in one turn. Compared to that, what feat does a non-caster get that ends an encounter?

Even when you first get 4th or 5th level spells. 1st Level Spell and a 5th level spell in the same round can easily end an encounter. A split ray'd 2nd level spell can very easily end an encounter.

Just No.

I'll add freaking Wizards to the list.

A split Rayed 2nd level spell does not end encounters at level 7 unless those encounters were a joke.

A level 1 and level 5 spell doesn't end an encounter at level 9 at all.

Spells don't end encounters against CR appropriate opposition.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-09, 02:33 PM
Just No.

I'll add freaking Wizards to the list.

A split Rayed 2nd level spell does not end encounters at level 7 unless those encounters were a joke.

A level 1 and level 5 spell doesn't end an encounter at level 9 at all.

Spells don't end encounters against CR appropriate opposition.

Split Ray: Shivering Touch. 6d6 Dex damage against a single opponent, enough to take down anything that is vulnerable to Dex damage. Against anything that is dumb enough to fight you solo, that's checkmate.

Solid Fog>Encounters.

Grease>>>>>>Anything that can't fly and has no ranks in Balance (AKA 90% of everything under 10th level without a Fly speed).

Chain Spell: Slay Living>Encounters vulnerable to Death effects (AKA anything Humanoid, Monsterous Humanoid, or Outsider unless specified by that individual monster).

A 1st level spell and a cantrip immobilizes a CR 11. This can be done with a 1st level Wizard (though it only lasts for 1 round, so 3rd or 5th is best). Iron Golems lose to Grease+a cantrip that deals electricity damage in the SC.






In short, Wizards should never be on this list.

sofawall
2009-09-09, 03:03 PM
Ray of Stupidity. Ray of Clumsiness. That one that does 1d6+1/2 CL to either str or dex, I forget.

Ray of Stupidity goes on here 18 times for ending many fights easily.

EDIT: Reasons for wizards to never be on this list, not reasons they should be.

And seriously Kelpstrand, if almost every optimizer since 3.0 came out has been saying casters, and more specifically wizards, are over powered, on many websites, sometimes with no cross-traffic, and has been proven in games, both PbP and PnP, well, maybe you're wrong.

Oslecamo
2009-09-09, 03:21 PM
Split Ray: Shivering Touch. 6d6 Dex damage against a single opponent, enough to take down anything that is vulnerable to Dex damage. Against anything that is dumb enough to fight you solo, that's checkmate.
Great, you took down one of the mooks. Now deal with the boss.



Solid Fog>Encounters.
Because half the monsters totally can't teleport/become ethereal, no sir.



Grease>>>>>>Anything that can't fly and has no ranks in Balance (AKA 90% of everything under 10th level without a Fly speed).

Luckily, DMs are free to change the monster skill points as they can change their feats and weaponry. Anything with positive intelegence modifier in my campaign has balance ranks because everybody has heard of the legends of the greasing wizards.



Chain Spell: Slay Living>Encounters vulnerable to Death effects (AKA anything Humanoid, Monsterous Humanoid, or Outsider unless specified by that individual monster).
Except that it allows a fort save, wich are quite high among most monsters.



A 1st level spell and a cantrip immobilizes a CR 11. This can be done with a 1st level Wizard (though it only lasts for 1 round, so 3rd or 5th is best). Iron Golems lose to Grease+a cantrip that deals electricity damage in the SC.

Welcome to the fearsome world of rock throwing golems. They have hands. They can throw stuff they pick up from the floor. How much HP your 3rd lv wizard has again?

Kelpstrand
2009-09-09, 03:25 PM
Split Ray: Shivering Touch. 6d6 Dex damage against a single opponent, enough to take down anything that is vulnerable to Dex damage. Against anything that is dumb enough to fight you solo, that's checkmate.

Not a Ray.


Solid Fog>Encounters.

Look at CR 9s. The vast majority can escape in a single round. Even ones that can't still don't die, so you better be pulling out some AOE attacks that seriously hurt. Not to mention has nothing to do with metamagic.


Grease>>>>>>Anything that can't fly and has no ranks in Balance (AKA 90% of everything under 10th level without a Fly speed).

No, it makes them flat footed for a single round while they leave. If they have no ranks in balance and can't fly.


Chain Spell: Slay Living>Encounters vulnerable to Death effects (AKA anything Humanoid, Monsterous Humanoid, or Outsider unless specified by that individual monster).

1) not even valid. Slay is touch spell, no chain,

2) secondly, level 8 spell, so what, CR 14 enemies can take it, they can just make a save.

3) Chain grants +4 to each successive target. That doesn't even beat 14 Kobolds at level 14.


A 1st level spell and a cantrip immobilizes a CR 11. This can be done with a 1st level Wizard (though it only lasts for 1 round, so 3rd or 5th is best). Iron Golems lose to Grease+a cantrip that deals electricity damage in the SC.

Yes, an Int - being can be beaten by grease. Of course, it can also be beaten by Silent Image. That's a problem with Int - beings, not with evil metamagic or even spells.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-09, 03:27 PM
Except that it allows a fort save, wich are quite high among most monsters.


He did say Chain spell: Usually when you fight 7 or more enemies, they are lower HD than you. Which means lower Saves. Probably meany Finger of Death (which isn't touch).
But there is higher chance some live.

Oslecamo
2009-09-09, 03:31 PM
He did say Chain spell: Usually when you fight 7 or more enemies, they are lower HD than you. Which means lower Saves. Probably meany Finger of Death (which isn't touch).
But there is higher chance some live.

Except that chain spell also lowers the save DC by -4 for each extra target if I'm not mistaken. You may as well be shooting fireballs in this case.

Also it's easy to throw monsters of lower level than you with actually as much or even higher HD. Aberrations? Vermins? 4HD means only a +1 CR increase Yes please.

Really should finish my monster guide someday...

Kelpstrand
2009-09-09, 03:41 PM
Ray of Stupidity. Ray of Clumsiness. That one that does 1d6+1/2 CL to either str or dex, I forget.

Penalties don't stack. You can penalize a couple monsters a small amount. Approximately close to sickening them.

Ray of Stupidity... only does seriousness to animals, and no one cares, because they are animals.


And seriously Kelpstrand, if almost every optimizer since 3.0 came out has been saying casters, and more specifically wizards, are over powered, on many websites, sometimes with no cross-traffic, and has been proven in games, both PbP and PnP, well, maybe you're wrong.

Overpowered Compared to what? Weaker classes? Sure. But not Monsters. If Evil CR is too hard, and evil Wizards are too broken, it sounds to me like other classes are failures, and Wizards and Druids and Clerics are good.

Not every optimizer since 3.0 came out has been saying casters are overpowered, they have been saying more powerful than other classes. Lots of people see that monsters are generally pretty darn powerful too, and make for good opposition for casters.

quick_comment
2009-09-09, 03:44 PM
Penalties don't stack. You can penalize a couple monsters a small amount. Approximately close to sickening them.

Ray of Stupidity... only does seriousness to animals, and no one cares, because they are animals.



Ray of stupidity is damage, not a penalty.

sofawall
2009-09-09, 03:44 PM
Penalties don't stack. You can penalize a couple monsters a small amount. Approximately close to sickening them.

Ray of Stupidity... only does seriousness to animals, and no one cares, because they are animals.



Overpowered Compared to what? Weaker classes? Sure. But not Monsters. If Evil CR is too hard, and evil Wizards are too broken, it sounds to me like other classes are failures, and Wizards and Druids and Clerics are good.

Not every optimizer since 3.0 came out has been saying casters are overpowered, they have been saying more powerful than other classes. Lots of people see that monsters are generally pretty darn powerful too, and make for good opposition for casters.

Problem is, most wizards laugh at CR appropriate encounters, and if something can seriously inconvenience a wizard, what chance does a fighter have?

If something is better than all the alternatives and oppositions, it is overpowered. If it is meant to be close in power (as the classes and equal-cr encounters are meant to be) but is instead more powerful, it is overpowered.

monkey3
2009-09-09, 03:53 PM
*Puts on flame-retardant underwear*

The Book of Battle is overpowered.

Put the chair down, and let me explain.

Every melee class in that book is so overpowered compared to every melee class outside that book, that it would be a mistake not to use it.

Ahh, but you say, I must compare those classes with wizard! Well, most of the abuses people site as examples of wizard powers would not pass the average DM.

"My wizard turns the monsters into salt and becomes the riches man in the world" -> "NO"

"My wizard double PolymorphAnyObjects himself into a Solar/Titan/GoldDragon" -> "NO"

"My incantantrix wizard uses persistent _fill_in_the_blank_" -> "Sorry persistent doesn't exist, and neither does that prc"

Those are just the most common house rules, never mind the campaigns I have played in where Wish is landmine, wizards are TargetNumberOne, etc.

In fact, I have not seen a campaign that has not nerfed casters to be on par with melee classes. In those campaigns, The book of Nine Swords is a overpowered not just compared to melee, but to casters as well.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-09, 03:53 PM
Problem is, most wizards laugh at CR appropriate encounters, and if something can seriously inconvenience a wizard, what chance does a fighter have?

If something is better than all the alternatives and oppositions, it is overpowered. If it is meant to be close in power (as the classes and equal-cr encounters are meant to be) but is instead more powerful, it is overpowered.

Most Wizards don't laugh at CR appropriate encounters, they slightly overperform, to compensate for under performance of others.

Wizards are not more powerful than equal CR encounters.

If something is better than all the alternatives, then it is unbalanced relative to the alternatives. It could be a flaw in the more powerful option or the less powerful. Overpowered=/=broken. The Fighter is broken. The Wizard is fine.


Ray of stupidity is damage, not a penalty.

See how he mentioned three spells, Ray of Clumsiness, Ray of Enfeeblement, and Ray of Stupidity? See how I separated my response into one section about penalties and a different section about Ray of Stupidity?

Yeah.

Split Ray of Stupidity is a 4th level spell that does an average of 7 Int damage.

Non animals and Wizards ignore this completely. Wizards have to resort to spells without saving throws if they allow you to hit them with both rays, in which case they deserve it.

Compare that to EBT, Solid Fog, which are equally as useful against different sets of numbers.

quick_comment
2009-09-09, 03:54 PM
Most Wizards don't laugh at CR appropriate encounters, they slightly overperform, to compensate for under performance of others.

Wizards are not more powerful than equal CR encounters.



Make a CR 24 encounter, I will defeat it with a level 20 wizard.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-09, 03:54 PM
Great, you took down one of the mooks. Now deal with the boss.


That's precisely how you kill the boss. Nobody bothers with massive ability damage spells on mooks, generally. You don't even have to kill the mooks all the time. Merely disabling them or flying over them to nuke the boss is quite adequate.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-09, 03:59 PM
Make a CR 24 encounter, I will defeat it with a level 20 wizard.

Make a level 13 Wizard, I will kill it with a CR 13 encounter.

Eldariel
2009-09-09, 04:01 PM
Make a CR 24 encounter, I will defeat it with a level 20 wizard.

Considering CR 24 encounter (say Solar with a level) has access to Epic Spellcasting, that seems majorly pointless. You aren't beating an Epic Spellcaster and you know it. How about level 17 Wizard vs. CR 20 encounter?

sofawall
2009-09-09, 04:02 PM
Make a level 13 Wizard, I will kill it with a CR 13 encounter.

Will it be a non-associated class level monstrosity, or something from the Monster Manuals?

quick_comment
2009-09-09, 04:03 PM
Considering CR 24 encounter (say Solar with a level) has access to Epic Spellcasting, that seems majorly pointless. You aren't beating an Epic Spellcaster and you know it. How about level 17 Wizard vs. CR 20 encounter?

Excepting epic spellcasting. Using epic spellcasting is just defeating one wizard with a more powerful one.

I will amend my challenge.

Make a CR 24 encounter that does not make use of a creature with full casting ability, and I will defeat it with a level 20 wizard.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-09, 04:07 PM
Except that chain spell also lowers the save DC by -4 for each extra target if I'm not mistaken. You may as well be shooting fireballs in this case.

Also it's easy to throw monsters of lower level than you with actually as much or even higher HD. Aberrations? Vermins? 4HD means only a +1 CR increase Yes please.

Really should finish my monster guide someday...

No, it is -4 in total not for each.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-09, 04:42 PM
Will it be a non-associated class level monstrosity, or something from the Monster Manuals?

It was going to be MM, but might have involved advancing CR in various ways other than non associated.

But let's go with this. Wizard is only class. Race no LA, no templates. Feats Core + Completes. Spells from Core+SpC. 32PB, average HP per die. I will use only unaltered MM (I, III-V) monsters. Core only items, both parties.

If you have any particularly Wizardly feats or spells from other sources, just let me know.

Since spells are supposed to win encounters so easily, PrC class features shouldn't be needed.

I will make 6 encounters of CR 13. I will provide six blurbs of "You are doing X today" for you to prepare spells for. Will take it from there.

Expected outcome:

Wizard faces one encounter per day, as per CR difficulty for party of 1.

My contention: Wizard wins 3-4 encounters (slightly overperforming based on CR). Loses 2-3.

Your contention: Wizard easily wins... Spells are just that good, 5-6 wins, with some encounter expending very few spells.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-09, 04:58 PM
Reach Spell: Turning Shivering Touch into a Ray.
No it does not. It makes it a Ranged Touch Attack. Which is not necessarily a Ray. It says nothing about becoming a Ray.

Same reason the Orb of X spells can't be Split Ray'd.


Except that chain spell also lowers the save DC by -4 for each extra target if I'm not mistaken. You may as well be shooting fireballs in this case.
No, it's full DC on the primary, and every other one gets a single -4. So if the full DC is 24, and you use Chain to hit 5 targets, 1 has a 24 DC and the other four have a 20 DC. Not 24/20/16/12/8. That would be thoroughly useless.


1) not even valid. Slay is touch spell, no chain
Reach + Chain should be valid. Many DMs ban it because they consider it broken (personally, eh... not so sure about that. That's a lot of spell levels and two feats, or a high level class ability, a fair number of spell levels, and a feat), but RAW it works.


*Puts on flame-retardant underwear*

The Book of Battle is overpowered.

Put the chair down, and let me explain.

Every melee class in that book is so overpowered compared to every melee class outside that book, that it would be a mistake not to use it.

Ahh, but you say, I must compare those classes with wizard! Well, most of the abuses people site as examples of wizard powers would not pass the average DM.

"My wizard turns the monsters into salt and becomes the riches man in the world" -> "NO"

"My wizard double PolymorphAnyObjects himself into a Solar/Titan/GoldDragon" -> "NO"

"My incantantrix wizard uses persistent _fill_in_the_blank_" -> "Sorry persistent doesn't exist, and neither does that prc"

Those are just the most common house rules, never mind the campaigns I have played in where Wish is landmine, wizards are TargetNumberOne, etc.

In fact, I have not seen a campaign that has not nerfed casters to be on par with melee classes. In those campaigns, The book of Nine Swords is a overpowered not just compared to melee, but to casters as well.
Nerfing optimized casters down to melee (especially Fighter or worse Monk power levels) is A. very difficult to do, and B. not often done.

Furthermore, other than that use of PAO, I'll agree those would never fly. As for PAO, sure plenty of DMs ban it (and should), but that's not cheese, that is very clearly RAW and RAI. It's just poorly designed.

Finally, you do not need cheese to play a wizard, cleric, or druid more powerful than swordsage, crusader, or warblade. You don't. Seriously, they're definitely more powerful than most other melee options (actually, with serious optimization, there are plenty of comparable melee builds, they're just hard to pull off - where ToB optimizes itself). Hell, in the Druid's case, it's not even particularly hard to do - a quick scan of the MM for the toughest ACs/WSs, take Natural Spell (do any Druids not?), and be awesome. Probably more awesome than any ToB class. Wizards are easy to play poorly, since their strengths are not as obvious, but played well they're even stronger than druids.

In other words, no, I do not agree.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-09, 05:07 PM
Reach + Chain should be valid. Many DMs ban it because they consider it broken (personally, eh... not so sure about that. That's a lot of spell levels and two feats, or a high level class ability, a fair number of spell levels, and a feat), but RAW it works.

Reach + Chain would put it up to 9th level, since we are discussing metamagic without reducers. In which case, hey look: Wail of the Banshee, larger area, no -4 penalty to all targets except primary, and +4 to DCs because it's 9th level.

I seriously hope no one actually thinks that a Chained Slay Living is an encounter ender at level 17+.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-09, 05:11 PM
Reach + Chain would put it up to 9th level, since we are discussing metamagic without reducers. In which case, hey look: Wail of the Banshee, larger area, no -4 penalty to all targets except primary, and +4 to DCs because it's 9th level.

I seriously hope no one actually thinks that a Chained Slay Living is an encounter ender at level 17+.

For the record, I did mean Chain+Finger of Death. CL in kills if you get the DC high enough (a Sorcerer can do this using Ghost Walk and a few other sources). +4 save bonus be damned.

In other words, everything you send at a character with that option is either immune to Death Effects, has a high Fort save, or can't be targeted by Finger of Death (Spellward Shirt, for example), or it is going to have to Save or Die.

mostlyharmful
2009-09-09, 05:15 PM
metabreath feats.

I'd consider Heighten Breath on a metalic broken unless there's some errata I'm not aware of since it doesn't state how high you can crank the save DC just that you delay the recharge by the same amount of turns. Not all that important if its just elemental damage but the metalics get some pretty nice save or suck/lose that get turned into area auto-lose when you add 450+ to the DC. dumb but legal as far as I know.

Gnaeus
2009-09-09, 05:23 PM
Knight.

I have seen multiple DMs who think Knight is broken strong (and one who felt that Dragon Shaman was.) This just makes my head hurt.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-09, 05:25 PM
For the record, I did mean Chain+Finger of Death. CL in kills if you get the DC high enough (a Sorcerer can do this using Ghost Walk and a few other sources). +4 save bonus be damned.

In other words, everything you send at a character with that option is either immune to Death Effects, has a high Fort save, or can't be targeted by Finger of Death (Spellward Shirt, for example), or it is going to have to Save or Die.

Okay. We just went over this. Finger of Death is a 7th level spell. Chain adds +3.

You now have a 10th level spell that is exactly like Wail of the Banshee, but with -6 to the DC, and it does 3d6+CL damage on successful save.

That is not impressive. That is basically the same thing as Wail of the Banshee, but worse, and taking a higher level slot.

Wail of the Banshee doesn't make Wizards overpowered, neither does Chained Finger of Death.

If you want a Chained Spell that actually doesn't suck, try Fleshshiver.

shadow_archmagi
2009-09-09, 05:30 PM
Cheese? Infinite abuses?

Those are just silly things that board optimizers do for silly fun. Wizards are overpowered because of individual spells that, with no extra thought, destroy typical challenges. Blindness is my personal favorite. Enjoy your sneak attacks, 50% miss chance, and having to guess where the hell I am just to earn your right to an attack roll.

In a perfect world, I should be able to design an encounter based on cinematic value and general fun, and then have it be equally challenging to anyone.

Now, as Kelp and Olsce have pointed out, it is possible to challenge a wizard, and that with sufficient knowledge of the monster manuals and other splatbooks to provide advancements/bonuses, one can say "this encounter is CR appropriate, mr. wizard, and you have no chance."

But the problem with that is

1. This means that many, many options are negated. Running an entire campaign like this means your options are pretty limited. Sure, maybe you can think of 30 different ways to provide "an adequate challenge" but that's a huge amount of work and in most campaigns will require considerable adaption to support having that specific set. For example, I think that orcs make decent antagonists, but I can't use them on a regular basis if my player knows he can just Blind any significant orcthreat. (of course, one might have some way of avoiding Blind, but you can only dispense so many blindfolds of true darkness).

2. Okay, great. You made an encounter that wizards can't stop. How exactly was the rest of the party supposed to kill this thing again?


TL; DR

Kelp, I realize that if you put some thought into it, wizards are beatable. The trouble is that a DM should never have to waste time designing every encounter around a single player.

The correct way to test a class for brokenness is to write a short adventure, that tells a neat little story and wasn't designed with anything particular in mind. Then ask me if my XXX considers that too hard or too easy.

Kelpstrand
2009-09-09, 05:41 PM
Now, as Kelp and Olsce have pointed out, it is possible to challenge a wizard, and that with sufficient knowledge of the monster manuals and other splatbooks to provide advancements/bonuses, one can say "this encounter is CR appropriate, mr. wizard, and you have no chance."

But the problem with that is

1. This means that many, many options are negated. Running an entire campaign like this means your options are pretty limited. Sure, maybe you can think of 30 different ways to provide "an adequate challenge" but that's a huge amount of work and in most campaigns will require considerable adaption to support having that specific set. For example, I think that orcs make decent antagonists, but I can't use them on a regular basis if my player knows he can just Blind any significant orcthreat. (of course, one might have some way of avoiding Blind, but you can only dispense so many blindfolds of true darkness).

2. Okay, great. You made an encounter that wizards can't stop. How exactly was the rest of the party supposed to kill this thing again?


TL; DR

Kelp, I realize that if you put some thought into it, wizards are beatable. The trouble is that a DM should never have to waste time designing every encounter around a single player.

Who's designing encounters around the Wizard? I'm picking stock MM monsters.

From MM I, without even changing spells and feats, most outsiders pose a CR appropriate challenge, also some giants and elementals and aberrations.

Make good feats and spell choices, and half the MM is a good challenge, Dragons, outsiders, aberrations, giants, elementals, class leveled humanoids, undead.

Yes, it is difficult to challenge a Wizard 2/MS 3/whatever Y/Z, with Abrupt Jaunt and ect. But it's also difficult to challenge an Ubercharger who does ein billion damage per attack with Pounce.

And once again "great. You made an encounter that wizards can't stop. How exactly was the rest of the party supposed to kill this thing again?" I made an encounter that is challenging to the Wizard, and is challenging to the party under different circumstances (one of 4 per the day).

Assuming the party is all good characters about where the Wizard is.

See how I never claimed Fighters were good? It's because they aren't. Fighters are bad. Wizards are slightly above average for CR. Druids are maybe a bit above them. Clerics a bit below.

At no point do I have to let my players play a Core fighter in order to say that Wizards are not broken.

Foryn Gilnith
2009-09-09, 05:44 PM
The entire group was terrible at character building, I could have made a CW Samurai and made him look overpowered.

You should have instilled a permanent fear of CW Samurais in the DM. It would be hilarious, and the resulting ban would just stop people from gimping themselves.

Faleldir
2009-09-09, 05:52 PM
Those are just the most common house rules, never mind the campaigns I have played in where Wish is landmine, wizards are TargetNumberOne, etc.
And Monks are balanced if your DM gives them (and only them) an unlimited supply of specific partially-charged wands which they always have time to use, but that's not relevant to the discussion.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-09, 06:03 PM
Okay. We just went over this. Finger of Death is a 7th level spell. Chain adds +3.

You now have a 10th level spell that is exactly like Wail of the Banshee, but with -6 to the DC, and it does 3d6+CL damage on successful save.

That is not impressive. That is basically the same thing as Wail of the Banshee, but worse, and taking a higher level slot.

Wail of the Banshee doesn't make Wizards overpowered, neither does Chained Finger of Death.

If you want a Chained Spell that actually doesn't suck, try Fleshshiver.

I admit I forgot the spell's level. But where does the -6 save DC come from?

Wail of the Banshee is still an encounter-ender at high levels. Out of all of the CR 20's, up to the CR 24's, only two of them have immunity to Death effects. The Solar (due to two castings of Death Ward), and Big T (due to regeneration).

One of those can be Dispelled. The other loses to Fly.

If one spell can end 20 or more CR 24 encounters (even if it is a Fort save with SR), guess what? Overpowered. How can a non-caster even compare to the sheer chance of ending 20 Epic-CR encounters (even the Ancient Gold Wyrm only dies 5% of the time, I haven't even touched what debuffs I can use)?

I can get a DC 33 Wail of the Banshee out of Core, before other buffs, BTW. The Solar needs a 15 or higher before buffs/debuffs (and assuming Death Ward is down) to pass that. In other words, I can kill 14 Solars with one casting. Or more, if I debuff them.

The next best thing to something like this? The Charger build, which can kill up to 5 of them in one round, assuming he's under the effects of a Haste spell, all 5 attacks hit, there are five within his melee reach, and no AoOs. In other words, he's doing 1/3 of the work a Wizard is doing.


Edit:


But it's also difficult to challenge an Ubercharger who does ein billion damage per attack with Pounce.

Difficult Terrain>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Uber Charger build. They more or less lose if there's even a sheet of ice between them and the target. Seriously, they are so easy to deal with that they are Tier 5 for a reason. So many abilities just prevent them from doing a damn thing that it isn't funny.

Contrast: only two abilities are capable of denying a caster their ability to cast spells (their most powerful resource); AMF's and Dead Magic Zones. Grappling can be bypassed thanks to Concentration being so useful. Hell, even the AMF and Dead Magic Zone have a weakness (some Conjuration spells, and a 9th level spell called Invoke Magic).

Oslecamo
2009-09-09, 06:04 PM
For the record, I did mean Chain+Finger of Death. CL in kills if you get the DC high enough (a Sorcerer can do this using Ghost Walk and a few other sources). +4 save bonus be damned.

In other words, everything you send at a character with that option is either immune to Death Effects, has a high Fort save, or can't be targeted by Finger of Death (Spellward Shirt, for example), or it is going to have to Save or Die.

In other words, if you have 10th level spell slots(wince we were assuming no meta reducers), then EVERYTHING you fight will have insane fort saves and/or death immunity, because you'll be fighting freaking epic monsters.

EDIT:Also, you seem to be forgeting that high level monsters start to have enough treasure to actually gear themselves out. A solar who doesn't use his cleric casting to protect himself deserves to die anyway, and if the DM isn't making the dragons use their spellcasting to buff themselves then he's just doing it wrong.

Really, you're throwing your optimized wizard against comatose monsters, wich really never happens with any decent DM.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-09, 06:17 PM
In other words, if you have 10th level spell slots(wince we were assuming no meta reducers), then EVERYTHING you fight will have insane fort saves and/or death immunity, because you'll be fighting freaking epic monsters.

EDIT:Also, you seem to be forgeting that high level monsters start to have enough treasure to actually gear themselves out. A solar who doesn't use his cleric casting to protect himself deserves to die anyway, and if the DM isn't making the dragons use their spellcasting to buff themselves then he's just doing it wrong.

Really, you're throwing your optimized wizard against comatose monsters, wich really never happens with any decent DM.

Metamagic rods aren't reducers: they are free :smallbiggrin: