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Cicciograna
2009-09-06, 02:13 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0126.html

This strip clearly exemplifies one of the thing that I like least in D&D: I don't like the easiness with which PC can develop brand new abilities, often some that in game would be very complex, such as learning Magic, in such a small amount of time. I can't cope with the "retroactive assumption that the would-be has been looking over another [previous class]'s shoulder and taking notes about [new class' abilities]"; besides, I like the idea of Fighters' College, Magical Academies, Bardic Camps and the like, so I tried to come up with some way to restrict the access to Immediate Knowledge.

Then I opened my PHB to page 109, specifically looking at Table 6-4:Random Starting Ages (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/description.htm#age): I figured that the random value for each class to add to adulthood age for each race could give me a strarting point for my task, that those random rolled years could represent the actual school or apprenticeship years to learn the peculiar skills connected to each class. This could be good for me.

As the rules for random starting age are a bit strict for the time scale of an adventuring party, I decided not to take those rules and simply apply them, as this would dramatically slow the pace of adventures ([I]Hey, I'm taking my first level of Wizard, see you in...[rolls dice]...aww, 12 years...); so I decided that random time to pick a new class should be taken ONLY for the 1st level, and that the rolled number are months, not years (Hey, I'm taking my first level of Wizard, see you in...[rolls dice]...12 months! Woohoo, back to school!).

Going further and taking note of DMG variant rules for gaining class benefits, described on page 198 of DMG, the learner should attend to some sort of school to pick a new class (such as Fighter College) and pay some sort of fee, otherwise the time needed to get the new class would double (or triple, in case of particularly study-oriented classes, such as Wizard): after the first level, whose learning rules I described earlier, the DMG rules would come into play, thus requiring one week of training in a specialized school for every two class levels gained, time doubled without attending school. This scheme summarizes my idea:


Time needed to gain 1st level: roll on Table 6-4 from PHB from the appropriate list entry; the resulting number are the months needed to get 1st level in chosen class. These months should be spended attending to a relevant school, training with a proficient NPC, performing apprenticeship with a high level character and the like. The fees are up to the DM, but I think that 100-200 gp per month could be a reasonable price.
Time needed to gain further levels: see page 198 on DMG, in the paragraph "Gaining class benefits"; one could diminish or increase the fee according to the prestige of the school, increasing or decresing accordingly the time needed to learn.
This variant could be applied to previous point too: Henry the Hermit only takes 50 gp per month to teach you magic, but it would take three time the normal time to learn from him; the Elven School for High Uses of the Art would instead charge you 1000 gp per month of study, but you could learn the secrets of Magic in a quarter of the time.
Failure to find teachers or schools: this results in decreased fees (at DM's discretion, up to 0 gp, for self-taught skills), but increased learning time. One could learn the art of fighting practicing alone with the sword, but this would take way more time than having a teacher showing you the correct movements, parries and thrusts.

Drawbacks

Elves have a hard time. An unfortunate elf could pick the first level of Cleric in 60 months, that is to say 5 years. A lot less than 10d6 years, but still way too much for a running campaign. If you want to diminish learning time you could decide to roll double the dice you would normally roll and consider the result as the needed weeks to learn the 1st level in a new class: the previous unfortunate elf could now pick her 1st Cleric level in 20d6 weeks, to a maximum of 120 weeks, that is to say something more than 2 years (but he had to roll twenty 6 to achieve this result...).

Money easily goes away with this method: you could decrese the fees to keep your PC rich, deciding that an average cost of 100 gp per week of training is enough.

To avoid training time altogether for just one class, one could choose to incorporate a 3.0 rule, the 1st Level Multiclass, which you can find on page 40 of 3.0 DMG, or here (http://www.iourn.com/dnd/classes/apprenticecharacters.htm):with this rule, one could pick two starting classes, increasing her starting age and assuming that she attended to the proper learning before her adventuring career began, thus cutting the time needed to pick 1st level in new classes.

This is what I made up. What do you think of this ruleset? Do you have similar issues? Which solutions did you find? :smallsmile:

nightwyrm
2009-09-06, 02:17 PM
Nothing prevents the players from saying "our PCs all take 12 months off so everyone can gain a level in a new class"

kamikasei
2009-09-06, 02:23 PM
Most classes don't require such careful handling. For those that do, it's generally best to have the player plan his character's development somewhat in advance, and play as already having the groundwork needed.

Roderick_BR
2009-09-06, 02:34 PM
Mechanically, there's no restrictions. What you could have, if you want to avoid level dipping, or the "I was a fighter last level, and now I popped out a level of wizard from nothing", is a compromise with your group to roleplay how they get those levels. In my group, we have the habit of setting up what we'll do beforehand. For example, if I want my fighter to get wizard levels, I annouce that my fighter started studying magic. So, the next level, I take a normal fighter level, but then the following level, I get a wizard level, as long as the DM thinks I got enough study (maybe buying scrolls, or hiring a wizard teacher).
A seasoned fighter have a little more experience than a new guy just starting adventuring life, so it's not hard for him to take dabble a bit in something new, it just takes time.
For level dumping, you can make a house-rule that you can only get a level in a new class after all your current classes have, say, at least 3 levels to it.

Cicciograna
2009-09-06, 02:54 PM
I think that I must give you some other infos.

There are two reasons behind this house rule.
The first is mechanical, as I once had a player that on level 6 was 1st level in six different classes: quite fune for him (as he had amazing ST) but awful roleplaying-wise.

The second is that I confess that I intended to get some inspiration from Harry Potter: the idea of the PC attending to some sort of school and living adventures in it entices me, so I thought to actively roleplay their life in school as a mean to adventure.



A seasoned fighter have a little more experience than a new guy just starting adventuring life, so it's not hard for him to take dabble a bit in something new, it just takes time.
I agree with you. This is why the dice rolled represent months, not years; more, in the DMG the "Gaining class benefit" rule speaks of weeks.


Nothing prevents the players from saying "our PCs all take 12 months off so everyone can gain a level in a new class"
This is not nice.

:roy:: Okay guys, it's time to level up!

:elan:: Woo hoo!

:roy:: We'll stop and train for...let's say 12 months.

:xykon: [scrying on the OOTS with TeeVo]: Exxxxxcellent.

SparkMandriller
2009-09-06, 03:16 PM
I really like the idea of a guy taking time off to go to barbarian school.

kamikasei
2009-09-06, 03:17 PM
The first is mechanical, as I once had a player that on level 6 was 1st level in six different classes: quite fune for him (as he had amazing ST) but awful roleplaying-wise.

You don't need a houserule for such situations. You just need to say "...what? Are you high?"

Cicciograna
2009-09-06, 03:28 PM
I really like the idea of a guy taking time off to go to barbarian school.

Not quite a Barbarian School (this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0132.html) maybe? :smallsmile: ) as much an older barbarian teaching him how to channel his raw power.

Ernir
2009-09-06, 03:28 PM
Ugh. I do not particularly like the idea of enforced training times for multiclassing.
Mostly because I do not see classes as anything that has any in-game relevance. I see classes as an abstraction used to mechanically represent the character's abilities.
I have a Fighter/Monk/Swordsage/a few more multiclassed monstrosity of a character that self-identifies as a paladin of Thales. He does not have any actual Paladin levels. When asked "Why can you not heal wounds! Paladins are supposed to be able to do that" he replies "Thales has not yet blessed me with the ability to heal wounds." He still thinks and behaves like a paladin.
I am also DMing in a game where one of the players is using the Paladin class to represent an extremely strict and rule-abiding marine, not a warrior of a church.


Now... I still agree with you that sometimes this gets silly. Especially when someone suddenly turns into a wizard, complete with spellbook and beard.
I propose two solutions:

1. Have everyone plan out their characters in advance. Every class and feat, at least. That way, you can incorporate the elements of the classes that have not shown up yet into the story.
The fighter intends to take his first wizard level at level 5? No problem, the player must only mention that instead of only practicing with swords, the character also spends much of its time studying spellbooks that he was always fascinated with, but never got a chance to study as a kid.
If you like schools - as a DM, make it abundantly clear that if the character can't find and enroll at the appropriate school before the level is attained, the character will not be able to gain a level in the class.

2. After levelling up and taking a class level, feat(s), skills, etc., the player must announce what class, feat, skills and such the character will take the next time it gains a level. That way, you get at least a bit of time to prepare the story. The Fighter who takes a Bard level gets a sudden desire to learn how to play the lute, and spends every night practicing.
If you like schools, multiclassing means "OK, you need to find the proper school now, if you haven't already."
And if he gains another level within a few weeks of in-game time... whaddayaknow, the dumb Fighter turned out to be a natural!


Both may sound thin, but at least they should be better than "it is hereby retroactively assumed that I have been looking at your notes."...

Kylarra
2009-09-06, 03:30 PM
D&D isn't really the best model for needing extensive training times for levels. Particularly not if you want to have some sort of ongoing adventure at the same time.

Also pointing out that with your proposed system, no character can afford paying the fees to even get to level one in the first place.

I guess if you're play E6 it's okay, but needing to take the better part of a year for every levelup just means that you can't have a real ongoing campaign.

"Sorry guys, can't save the world tonight, I've got homework or the gods won't grant me new strength."

Even if it's just for multiclassing, it pigeonholes you or punishes you severely for trying to break out of your box.

kamikasei
2009-09-06, 03:32 PM
Even if it's just for multiclassing, it pigeonholes you or punishes you severely for trying to break out of your box.

This is a common problem with the strange prevalence of houserules restricting multiclassing. In general, it doesn't make your character stronger. Why punish people for handicapping their character?

Skorj
2009-09-06, 03:42 PM
Classes are a very silly abstraction. They are pure mechanics.

As others have pointed out on many threads, multi-classing (other than PrCs) is almost the opposite of character optimization. It's a way to try to bring some flavor and originality to a character in a silly class-based system, at the expense of effectiveness.

Want to punish or discourage multi-classing? Have difficult encounters.

Dixieboy
2009-09-06, 03:43 PM
This is a common problem with the strange prevalence of houserules restricting multiclassing. In general, it doesn't make your character stronger. Why punish people for handicapping their character?
Because they don't want people to handicap their character?

Random832
2009-09-06, 03:45 PM
This is a common problem with the strange prevalence of houserules restricting multiclassing. In general, it doesn't make your character stronger. Why punish people for handicapping their character?

One of the perceived problems (as someone mentioned above) is saving throws. But a simpler solution to that is to just say the +2 to good STs from the first level of each class doesn't stack (and apply fractional progression so that the +0 to the others doesn't hurt you as much if you take one or two levels)

kamikasei
2009-09-06, 03:46 PM
Because they don't want people to handicap their character?

But the approach seems to be along the lines of "huh, you tripped? Well, now we'll cut off your feet. That'll teach you to walk right!"

Kylarra
2009-09-06, 03:47 PM
Because they don't want people to handicap their character?That doesn't seem to be the case here, given the premise outlined in the first post.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-06, 03:52 PM
But the approach seems to be along the lines of "huh, you tripped? Well, now we'll cut off your feet. That'll teach you to walk right!"

+8. It's very poorly thought out. It actually implies that the person feels multiclassing is overpowered. It actually just depends on the classes involved. Sorcerer multiclassing into Barbarian? Poor choice. Bard taking levels in Sublime Chord? Good use of multiclassing.

Dixieboy
2009-09-06, 03:57 PM
But the approach seems to be along the lines of "huh, you tripped? Well, now we'll cut off your feet. That'll teach you to walk right!"

I NEVER said it was a good idea, I just answered the question.

kamikasei
2009-09-06, 03:58 PM
I NEVER said it was a good idea, I just answered the question.

Okay. But I think you're incorrect as to why people do it.

Cicciograna
2009-09-06, 04:03 PM
Okay, from the opinions expressed I deduct that you don't think it's a good idea to strictly manage level gaining. That's not a problem, and this was the reaction that I expected: I like coming up with systems to manage different parts of the game, and sometimes (quite often, actually :smallredface:) I tend to drift in my effort...

Now, apart from any consideration from advantages of multiclassing, I think I've been a bit misunderstood on this choice: I don't want to penalize multiclassing, I don't think it's bad nor I want to punish players for a wrong character selection (geez, I made countless bad characters myself!).
But, don't get me wrong, when my player made up tham monstruosity I decided to put some realistic cap to his multiclass frenzy: since we're up to start a new campaign, and I know that he'll do the same thing again, I thought that instead of telling him "Stop with this crap!" it was better to put some realistic cap to what he can or cannot do.


2. After levelling up and taking a class level, feat(s), skills, etc., the player must announce what class, feat, skills and such the character will take the next time it gains a level. That way, you get at least a bit of time to prepare the story. The Fighter who takes a Bard level gets a sudden desire to learn how to play the lute, and spends every night practicing.
If you like schools, multiclassing means "OK, you need to find the proper school now, if you haven't already."
And if he gains another level within a few weeks of in-game time... whaddayaknow, the dumb Fighter turned out to be a natural!

Besides, I like this.

kamikasei
2009-09-06, 04:08 PM
I thought that instead of telling him "Stop with this crap!" it was better to put some realistic cap to what he can or cannot do.

No - it's better to talk to the player than to try to head off problematic behaviour via mechanics alone.

Dixieboy
2009-09-06, 04:08 PM
Okay. But I think you're incorrect as to why people do it.

Still, that will remain my theory until I find a more plausible one.

Anyway.

While the idea adds realism it is simply unfeasible for a standard campaign.
Expecting there to be more than one period in the game with several months, if not years, is a bit optimistic. (Or pessimistic depending on a lot of things)

And the ideas you have for solving that problem seems to either do nothing or are very hard to actually use. (starting a guy one level above the others in exchange for a bit of aging?
Munchkinism would seem to be the logical outcome)

Atleast IMO.

Cicciograna
2009-09-06, 04:19 PM
No - it's better to talk to the player than to try to head off problematic behaviour via mechanics alone.

Hmmm...already done...didn't worked...
And please, don't suggest me to ditch this player: he's one of my best friends and, apart from this problem, he's a very good player...
Multiclassing in my group has always been a major issue: once, one of my players complained as V for the total unrealism of gaining new class levels without training...

Dixieboy
2009-09-06, 04:21 PM
Enforce Roleplaying restrictions on level gaining? (Like, if you want to take a level in wizards atleast have your guy read over the wizards shoulder a couple of times)

I have heard this solution a couple of times, wondering if it would be viable.

Cicciograna
2009-09-06, 04:24 PM
Enforce Roleplaying restrictions on level gaining? (Like, if you want to take a level in wizards atleast have your guy read over the wizards shoulder a couple of times)

I have heard this solution a couple of times, wondering if it would be viable.

You mean phisically standing behind the player who controls the Wizard and, say, assisting him when preparing spells? This could be a good idea, if the characters can learn on from another, but it couldn't work if the mentor is an NPC...

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-06, 04:27 PM
I think that I must give you some other infos.

There are two reasons behind this house rule.
The first is mechanical, as I once had a player that on level 6 was 1st level in six different classes: quite fune for him (as he had amazing ST) but awful roleplaying-wise.

Was the player poor at roleplaying, or did the multiclassing somehow drag down his roleplaying ability?

I cannot see how that would happen. I assume that you meant the player who dipped in 6 classes was a poor roleplayer. In that case, why not teach him to roleplay?

Your build and your ability to roleplay are not closely related. Restricting people's classes does not produce better roleplayers than allowing free multiclassing.

Cicciograna
2009-09-06, 04:34 PM
Was the player poor at roleplaying, or did the multiclassing somehow drag down his roleplaying ability?


The latter, because after this class selection, that campaign had become a joke for him, so he began to play poorly.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-06, 04:41 PM
The latter, because after this class selection, that campaign had become a joke for him, so he began to play poorly.

He may just need to be introduced to a source that has flavor in his interest. If needed, reflavoring a class to his standards could provide incentive to RP.

Find out what books/shows/comics he enjoys that you have common grounds with, and try reflavoring something like the XPH to suit him.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-06, 04:50 PM
The latter, because after this class selection, that campaign had become a joke for him, so he began to play poorly.

This seems like a problem with the player's mindset more than a direct effect of the class choices he chose for his character.

Kylarra
2009-09-06, 04:54 PM
The latter, because after this class selection, that campaign had become a joke for him, so he began to play poorly.
This doesn't sound like an issue that is solvable by mechanic implementation.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-06, 05:40 PM
Hmmm...already done...didn't worked...
And please, don't suggest me to ditch this player: he's one of my best friends and, apart from this problem, he's a very good player...
Multiclassing in my group has always been a major issue: once, one of my players complained as V for the total unrealism of gaining new class levels without training...

Is it actually a problem? While I think a level each of all the base classes wouldn't actually be effective in any way, I do think it'd be a blast to roleplay.

If the player is taking it as a joke, and isn't bothering to roleplay it, he won't play any better if there are in game restrictions on multiclassing, he'll do something else as a joke instead.

Mr. Mud
2009-09-06, 05:43 PM
Hmm... this sounds interesting. But would one have to necessarily go to a academy or other school to learn the skill, or could he/she be taught by a fellow party member? Maybe as a quasi-self training/apprenticeship?

Starbuck_II
2009-09-06, 06:01 PM
I think that I must give you some other infos.

There are two reasons behind this house rule.
The first is mechanical, as I once had a player that on level 6 was 1st level in six different classes: quite fune for him (as he had amazing ST) but awful roleplaying-wise.


What roleplaying issue:

Steven: Robit, did you just cast True Strike, but I thought you were a warrior?
Robit: Warrior? Why because I can use a weapon and armor. I've always been able to cast it, but didn't till now.
Steven: Yeah, I guess.

I mean, out of character: think of the Duskblade: they use armor and cast spells. So even in character it is believeable to use armor and spells.

Even in Core he could be Bard without wanting to use Inspire Courage (maybe he didn't want the skill tax into performance). They can't even cast 1st level spells till 2nd.


I'd need to know ewhat classes he took 1st level to see how they fit, but yeah I cam probably see it.

Class abilities are metagame concepts. Sure, they know wizard cast the spells that make people fall down (FF1 quote), but they don't know the difference between Wu jen and a Sublime Chord Bard (both cast high level arcane magic) without serious knowledge skills.

Curmudgeon
2009-09-06, 06:05 PM
You fix it by role-playing the training or aspirations to try something new. It only seems jarring because D&D is a simplified model of a fantasy world. You can add in the elaborations of level gain the same way you can add in descriptions of combat. ("She thrusts at your midsection, but you twist sideways and narrowly avoid her rapier, then riposte with your short sword to cause her to backpedal quickly as her second attempt to strike you comes up short." Or: she rolled to hit twice, and missed twice.)

Cicciograna
2009-09-07, 03:58 AM
Hmm... this sounds interesting. But would one have to necessarily go to a academy or other school to learn the skill, or could he/she be taught by a fellow party member? Maybe as a quasi-self training/apprenticeship?
Teaching by fellow member would be completely available and definitely a way to save money.


I'd need to know ewhat classes he took 1st level to see how they fit, but yeah I cam probably see it.


Ranger, Samurai, Cleric, Druid, Barbarian and Sorcerer, IIRC. Plus, he was a vampire lycanthrope. Wow!

Kylarra
2009-09-07, 10:32 AM
If that's CW Samurai, it's clear by the second choice that he thought this campaign was a joke. >.>


Allowing the vamp-lycan seems like a dm mistake more than a player one (and also a telling sign of non-seriousness).

Cicciograna
2009-09-07, 10:34 AM
If that's CW Samurai, it's clear by the second choice that he thought this campaign was a joke. >.>


Allowing the vamp-lycan seems like a dm mistake more than a player one (and also a telling sign of non-seriousness).

Can't remember the source of the Samurai was... From Complete Warrior, IIRC, but I could be wrong.
For what concerns vamp-lycan, he became first lycan, refused to cure himself, then he became vampire, and after this event, indeed, the campaign ended because it'd become a joke...

warrl
2009-09-07, 09:39 PM
Now, apart from any consideration from advantages of multiclassing, I think I've been a bit misunderstood on this choice: I don't want to penalize multiclassing, I don't think it's bad nor I want to punish players for a wrong character selection (geez, I made countless bad characters myself!).

But, don't get me wrong, when my player made up tham monstruosity I decided to put some realistic cap to his multiclass frenzy: since we're up to start a new campaign, and I know that he'll do the same thing again, I thought that instead of telling him "Stop with this crap!" it was better to put some realistic cap to what he can or cannot do.
Well, 4E does strictly limit multiclassing.

But 3E doesn't, so I'm assuming that's what you're talking about.

3.5 at least contains a rule to make imbalanced multiclassing undesirable: an XP penalty if your lowest class-level and your highest class-level (or for humans your second highest class-level) are too far apart. But Sr. Vorpal Kickasso (who at level 11 will have one level in each of the 11 classes in the 3.5 PHB) will never fall afoul of that rule.

Why not add an XP penalty if your *number* of classes is too big compared to your highest class level(s)? Say, your level in at least half your classes (rounded down, and excluding ONE favored class from the count but allowing it to be among the half) must be equal to or greater than your number of classes (again excluding ONE favored class), or you get the penalty.

Justify it as saying that you aren't able to keep properly in practice on the basic achievements of that many classes. (If you were higher-level, the basics of at least one class would be more firmly ingrained and thus you'd need less practice.)

And yes, these rules can and will interact, so sometimes there will be no way to add another class without taking on an XP penalty for a while.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-07, 10:38 PM
Teaching by fellow member would be completely available and definitely a way to save money.



Ranger, Samurai, Cleric, Druid, Barbarian and Sorcerer, IIRC. Plus, he was a vampire lycanthrope. Wow!

So he starts out as a TWfing warrior who specilalizes at killing certain creatures. He goes deeper into Twfing by focusing on his free Ancestral swords. Then he finds a spiritual center that grants him a few magic miracles. He decides to go deeper into his animalistic side and gains a friendly pet named Einstien. Einstien makes him angry by eating his favorite pair of shoes and he under goes a bliss-like state of peace and fury.
During this time he is bitten by a Lycanthrophe. He likes his new gift of strength from his animal sides so he refuses a cure. He was bitten by a rogue demon hunter who was a vampire (never trust those rogue demon hunters). His vampiric powers grant him mastery of arcane magic flowing through his blood.
He uses his new dark powers to right wrongs and truimph over evil.

Or something like that.

I'd need to know when he was bitten/sired to exactly know.

Kylarra
2009-09-07, 10:45 PM
Well, 4E does strictly limit multiclassing.
Unless you're a half-elf bard! :smallwink:

warrl
2009-09-08, 01:44 AM
Unless you're a half-elf bard! :smallwink:

Compared to 3E, even then.