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Zain
2009-09-06, 03:18 PM
dear playgrounders

after reading some of the many "wizards are overpowered" threads i had a brainwave, what if we had the fighters amour project an Anti-magic field, say 30ft, yes he would have to use and masterwork weapon, but could the caster do much, if anything against this?

i am not every familiar with the rules for AMF and spell-casting. but it seems like a good idea

thoughts? opinions? counters?

SparkMandriller
2009-09-06, 03:19 PM
Enemy wizard casts fly. And laughs.

Myou
2009-09-06, 03:23 PM
Craft Contingent Spell: Dimension Door/Teleport

Continency: When I would otherwise enter an antimagic field.

AstralFire
2009-09-06, 03:24 PM
Problem with Fighter v. Wizard is not the Fighter's ability to do damage when within range of the Wizard. It's not PvP. Problem is that the Fighter does almost nothing but damage without spending a lot of money on magic items and has to get within range of whoever they're fighting (not just the Wizard), while the Wizard can decide whether or not they're even going to have a fight. And picking when you fight? Is very powerful.

Eldariel
2009-09-06, 03:26 PM
The principal issue with AMF is that you need, among other things, natural wings for it to be useful. Really, aside from Shaped Anti-Magic Fields, you generally gotta be an Initiate of Mystra to make it really good.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-06, 03:33 PM
Craft Contingent Spell: Dimension Door/Teleport

Continency: When I would otherwise enter an antimagic field.
Personally I wouldn't allow it ... something about to possibly occur is not a circumstance, or rather the circumstance is always true (potentially you are always one moment away from entering an AMF, the future is wide open ... without Foresight contingencies can not look into the future in my opinion). Thinking you are about to enter an AMF is a circumstance.

Myou
2009-09-06, 03:38 PM
Personally I wouldn't allow it ... something about to possibly occur is not a circumstance, or rather the circumstance is always true. Thinking you are about to enter an AMF is a circumstance.

I'm afraid your post there was gibberish. :smallamused:

As far as I know, by RAW and RAI, my contingency works just fine. Bieng about to enter an AMF is a circumstance and it works just fine. you can't change the meaning of words for the ake of sopping tricks.The spell has nothing to do with what the caster is thinking.

Anyway, I'm not going to get into a debate about it if you still disagree.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-06, 03:39 PM
The future is unknowable, at any moment in time a teleport on a creature with a contingent AMF on seeing people with weapons drawn can go wrong and plant that creature next to you ... the circumstance is always potentially true.

Eldariel
2009-09-06, 03:41 PM
"When there's an AMF 5' from me" works just as well and is specific and doesn't look into the future. Though if you've got Foresight on, Contingency-triggers regarding immediate future could work out fine too depending on a thousand things. Then again, they could anyways. It's...difficult area to rule.

Myou
2009-09-06, 03:44 PM
The future is unknowable, at any moment in time a teleport on a creature with a contingent AMF on seeing people with weapons drawn can go wrong and plant that creature next to you ... the circumstance is always potentially true.

Sorry, but really, that's just gibberish, it's just not true and goes against all logic. :smalltongue:

Anyway, I'm not trying to change your opinion, I don't want to argue, it's too easy for tempers to flare over the 'net, so this is it for me in this discussion. See you around. :smallsmile:

Grumman
2009-09-06, 03:44 PM
As far as I know, by RAW and RAI, my contingency works just fine. Bieng about to enter an AMF is a circumstance and it works just fine.
I agree with PinkysBrain. It should not be possible to trigger a contingency based on future events. The contingency cannot detect the antimagic field until you are in the antimagic field, and by then it's too late.

Eldariel
2009-09-06, 03:45 PM
I agree with PinkysBrain. It should not be possible to trigger a contingency based on future events. The contingency cannot detect the antimagic field until you are in the antimagic field, and by then it's too late.

"Being 5' from Anti-Magic Field" is a viable condition though and doesn't have anything to do with future. As creatures with AMF can't Teleport anyways (or if they can, you also have the ability to counter teleportation), that pretty much solves it.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-06, 03:46 PM
"When there's an AMF 5' from me" works just as well and is specific and doesn't look into the future.
This is true, no beef with that.

I'm not comfortable with contingencies being triggered by an omniscient entity but I'll readily admit the RAW supports that (omniscient in the "knows all that is knowable" sense, which doesn't include the future).

Paganboy28
2009-09-06, 03:53 PM
Why not make or create armour that bestows some uber-Spell Resistance or Spell deflection?

Make a sword that can cut through Force effects so no trapped by Force Cages etc....

Maybe an arrow that is invisible, force effect that if hits cuts the caster off from their source of spell power.

Just off the top of my head.

Or against psionics, a weapon/armour effect that drains pp per round out to a large range.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-06, 03:55 PM
As creatures with AMF can't Teleport anyways (or if they can, you also have the ability to counter teleportation), that pretty much solves it.
Shadow Jaunt/Blink are not Su, but they can be delayed with Anticipate Teleportation.

I'd personally also rule that "a creature with a contingent AMF getting within 20 feet of me" is a complicated condition (this is not rule 0 territory, the spell simply has some DM fiat build in). So you'd need foresight to avoid contingent AMF's (which would be hard since it would be banned).

Skorj
2009-09-06, 03:56 PM
Well, for a fighter to PvP a wizard, he wants the AMF on the wizard, not himself. Use-activated AMF arrows can be fun, but can still be countered. The quickest way for a fighter to kill a wizard is generally to kill himslef and roll a Tier-1 class (even if his new character has to level up from 1-20, it's still faster).

However, in the more interesting and usual case of contributing to a fight involving both the wizard and the fighter, the wizard (and especiall the cleric) is often most effective with a fighter to buff and handle the mop-up, so making impossible for the full catser to buff you really isn't the way to go.

IMO the place where D&D is broken is the place where the full caster is also a better fighter than the fighter. An AMF does nothing to prevent the friendly caster saying "I fill every square in the entire dungeon with summons - how many XP do I get?".

Yukitsu
2009-09-06, 03:56 PM
This is true, no beef with that.

I'm not comfortable with contingencies being triggered by an omniscient entity but I'll readily admit the RAW supports that (omniscient in the "knows all that is knowable" sense, which doesn't include the future).

Prediction based on the obvious is actually fairly cogent. If someone who is trying to kill you (known) moves towards you with an anti magic field (known) and can do so (known) then it is cogent to say that you will.

That aside, you can't get an AMF 30 foot radius. You'd have to get it to 20 feet, paying the cost of AMF shackles with enlarge applied to them. As such, the wizard steps back 30 feet and proceeds to cast a dimension door several hundred feet straight up.

Even if you paid the epic cost that AMF 30 feet would cost, you'd see him walk 30 feet away, be 35 feet away from you and out of the AMF, and cast dimension door several hundred feet up.

Against my wizard, you move towards me, are blocked by a horde of skeletons and outsiders for the round. I move back a bit, command them all to attack you, and proceed to cast walls of iron and shrink object.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-06, 04:05 PM
Prediction based on the obvious is actually fairly cogent. If someone who is trying to kill you (known) moves towards you with an anti magic field (known) and can do so (known) then it is cogent to say that you will.
The AMF is invisible, if you didn't see it being cast or observed the effects it's not known. A hide in plain sight character could also simply sneak up on you with it on. If contingencies had to depend on character knowledge there would be a whole host of tactics to get around them.

This would be a good thing in my opinion ... but as I said, I readily acknowledge that by the RAW it's simply triggered by an omniscient entity.

Yukitsu
2009-09-06, 04:10 PM
Merely pointing out that in this instance, the omniscience does include what will happen in the future.

Eldariel
2009-09-06, 05:26 PM
Shadow Jaunt/Blink are not Su, but they can be delayed with Anticipate Teleportation.

This is why I added the "then you'll have Anticipate Teleport" anyways; in Core, there are no non-magical ways of teleporting and once they are added, so are anti-teleport tools.

AslanCross
2009-09-06, 05:29 PM
A Fighter walking around with an AMF would only screw up his party. What if the only way for him to breach the monster's DR was the cleric casting Align Weapon on his sword?

It only makes him more useless. This is not a PvP issue.

Zain
2009-09-06, 09:41 PM
well in the party that this would take effect in, we have no magic

no wizard, cleric, bard, etc

we have 2 rouges, 1 fighter (me) and one barbarian

one of the rouges is a trap finder, the other is a sneak attack uber-hide check
as for the barbarian is a power-attacking with a two hander
and I have a sword and broad

so being in a AMF seems like no big deal, also, the world is normal-magic

DR is the big issue, but there our plan b, run like heck

AstralFire
2009-09-06, 09:42 PM
You wield broads?

Anyhoodle, I say 'trust your DM' and that 'this method would fix little and possibly hurt more than it helped'.

Yukitsu
2009-09-06, 09:43 PM
Most people in general agree that against most encounters, AMF screws over the party more than the encounter, since most encounters don't rely on magic, while the party requires magic gear to keep up with things like polar bears and demons.