The Western Gods...

[Acero]

can someone explain to me what the Western gods resemble.
Are they a reference, or of Rich's imagination?

We know the dragon queen is a Western god... and maybe cyclops
from x-men.

I do not recall any knowledge of the four-eyed dude.

[BatRobin]

Dragon Queen...you mean Tiamat? That's the 5-headed thing.

IIRC, 4-eyed dude was/is Marduk.


Western Gods are 'real', can't remember where from though...
Eastern=Greek
Northern=Roman
Southern=Asian

[Acero]

Dragon Queen...you mean Tiamat? That's the 5-headed thing.

IIRC, 4-eyed dude was/is Marduk.


Western Gods are 'real', can't remember where from though...
Eastern=Greek
Northern=Roman
Southern=Asian

I believe the northern gods are Norse

the Roman Gods are Renamed Greek Gods.
yes, i watch history channel

[Tanngrisnr]

I believe the Western Gods are based on ancient Mesopotamian culture.

[Acero]

I believe the Western Gods are based on ancient Mesopotamian culture.

i know of these gods less than all other god history, so u might be right.
although, i do not recall any dragon gods from the month i spent studying them... they were'nt nice gods, so it would fit in with the desert lands of childhood robbers known as the western continent

[The Extinguisher]

Tiamat isn't a dragon goddess in the real world. The Fivefold Mother is a pure fantasy creation inspired by the real Tiamat.

[Acero]

Tiamat isn't a dragon goddess in the real world. The Fivefold Mother is a pure fantasy creation inspired by the real Tiamat.

then could the western gods be a UN of gods that dont have their own continent, along with rich's creations?

[Dixieboy]

I believe the Western Gods are based on ancient Mesopotamian culture.

Babylonian seems to be the best fit I can think off.

[Katana_Geldar]

I hardly think they're purely Rich's creation. I think the old D&D books had altenrate pantheons that included the norse gods, the asian 12 gods and the classical gods.

[Woodsman]

I know Deities and Demigods outlines Greek and Norse, but not Asian. I have no idea about them.

Sandstorm outlines the Babylonian Gods, with Tiamat thrown in by Mr. Burlew.

[shadzar]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0273.html

South = Asian = Chinese Zodiac

North = Norse

East = Greek

West = Sumerian/Babylonian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marduk

The gate will likely be found at Abzu temple at Eridu, the site at which the creation was thought to have occurred. Going with previous evidence of illusions, then the gate will also be hidden in a desert mirage.

[AnvilMAn]

I believe the northern gods are Norse

the Roman Gods are Renamed Greek Gods.
yes, i watch history channel

sorry i had to laugh a bit at this. i was taught the roman names first rather then the greek and i saw this special on hercules on the history channel. the entire time they kept calling him hercules (his roman name) but kept using the greek names for the gods. since his name is heracles to the greeks, i kept thinking the entire time "damnit why dont they use the proper name for him" lol im such a nerd for this stuff.

what im trying to say is dont trust the history channel so much :smallbiggrin:

[Katana_Geldar]

Trust people who have a degree in classics and history.

[Laserfish]

The Western Gods are based off of Babylonian mythology. The D&D version of Tiamat is based off a Babylonian sea goddess and "monstrous embodiment of primordial chaos."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiamat

[Katana_Geldar]

There's also a goddess with a crown and a sword, any ideas who that might be?

[shadzar]

There's also a goddess with a crown and a sword, any ideas who that might be?

Sarpanit the consort of Marduk and "mother goddess"?

[Nimrod's Son]

then could the western gods be a UN of gods that dont have their own continent, along with rich's creations?
There is a western continent. It's where the party is now.

There is no eastern continent (presumably, at least), but then again, there aren't any eastern gods any more.

[Acero]

There is a western continent. It's where the party is now.

There is no eastern continent (presumably, at least), but then again, there aren't any eastern gods any more.

no clue what they worship

[shadzar]

no clue what they worship

Isn't Elan from the East?

[Woodsman]

I might go so far as to say the female Western goddess is Inanna, a.k.a., Ishtar (Not just a crappy movie!).

Inanna was a goddess of love, sex appeal, and battle: all at the same time.

[Katana_Geldar]

No, Elan may be from the Western continent but that's pure speculaiton.

We do know Roy was brought up to worship the northern gods, but he's not very religious.

[Elan's Modron]

I'd second Innana/Ishtar as a very good bet for the crowned lady.

Marduk, Tiamat, Innana are probably the only Ancient Middle Eastern Gods most non-specialists would be even remotely familiar with.

And yeah, by using real world pantheons, Rich is following a quite a long-standing D&D tradition- that is- going with the classics.

The totally awesome first edition Deities & Demigods (with bad-ass cover by Erol Otus, see here (http://home.flash.net/~brenfrow/dd1/dd.jpg)
had gods from pantheons like the following all statted up: Chinese, Japanese, Sumerian AND Babylonian as two separate entries, I think, Indian, Native American, Celtic, Greek, (was there Roman distinct from Greek- I can't now remember), Ancient Egyptian, MesoAmerican, and maybe a few others. Oh yeah- Finnish- 'cause Gygax was so into The Kalevala; also there was Norse, of course, of course...

Plus- the very first printing had to get subsequently yanked 'cause it included the intellectual property of Fritz Leiber (i.e. Lankhmar/Nehwon) and H.P. Lovecraft (Cthulhu, etc.)

Good times, good times...

[Katana_Geldar]

It could be Inanna/Ishtar, it could be Astarte or it could be Anat. A lot of those middle eastern fetitlity/war goddesses are very similar.

[Tass]

I hardly think they're purely Rich's creation. I think the old D&D books had altenrate pantheons that included the norse gods, the asian 12 gods and the classical gods.

What? The Norse the asian and the classical? Why are the greek gods more classical?

[Nimrod's Son]

What? The Norse the asian and the classical? Why are the greek gods more classical?
Because that's what "classical" means. (http://www.answers.com/classical) I think you may be confusing it with "classic".

[Athaniar]

I've always assumed that the three were Marduk, Ishtar, and Tiamat (using her modern D&D appearance). Now that I think about it, however, Tiamat is the only one we know for sure.

Nevertheless, there isn't much doubt that it is indeed the Babylonian pantheon.

[Katana_Geldar]

We know about Tiamat and Marduk.

[Janmorel]

The setup for the gods is kind of muddled anyway -- aside from the three surviving Pantheons, you also have the Dark One, and presumably a few other random gods who aren't part of one of the groups. And despite their disagreements over Creation, it seems like gods that share alignments from different pantheons hang out together sometimes.

The Western gods are based on the Mesopotamian ones, so presumably Anu, Ishtar, and some assorted others are around somewhere, too.

[Katana_Geldar]

There's also the Elven gods.

[Herald Alberich]

There's also the Elven gods.

True, and we don't know how many of them there are. We know the elves raised him or them up themselves (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0275.html), like the goblins did with the Dark One, and that V worships the ancient elven god of knowledge (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0081.html), but we don't know if there are any others (in the Stickverse).

[Katana_Geldar]

Apparently this female Western goddess is in charge of druids. And the elves were more ascended, as SOD states they followed Elan's rule of becoming a god by having enough followers.

[Watcher]

On Elan, having fair skin, blonde hair and blue eyes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0503.html) seems very Scandinavian, and pre-Christian Scandinavia generally worshipped the Norse Gods, who are the same as the Gods of the North in the OotSverse. I don't see why people would think Elan, of all people, would be a (Westerner)? Especially since those people (so far) have tan and dark skin.

[Herald Alberich]

On Elan, having fair skin, blonde hair and blue eyes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0503.html) seems very Scandinavian, and pre-Christian Scandinavia generally worshipped the Norse Gods, who are the same as the Gods of the North in the OotSverse. I don't see why people would think Elan, of all people, would be a (Westerner)? Especially since those people (so far) have tan and dark skin.

That's mostly to do with the theory that Elan's and Nale's father is Lord Tyrinar, as we know (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0609.html) Tyrinaria (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0131.html) is on the Western Continent. Even if that theory turns out to be true, it wouldn't surprise me at all if Tyrinar wasn't native to his conquered land.

[Watcher]

Oh, got it. But still, if anything, he's Half-Westerner. I can't see his mother (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html) being anything else. We can't see their father's skin tone.

[TheBibliophile]

Trust people who have a degree in classics and history.

Trust people who have been avidly reading Greek myth all their life, and have also read the Illiad and the Odyssey.

ie. Me.

[Optimystik]

On Elan, having fair skin, blonde hair and blue eyes (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0503.html) seems very Scandinavian, and pre-Christian Scandinavia generally worshipped the Norse Gods, who are the same as the Gods of the North in the OotSverse. I don't see why people would think Elan, of all people, would be a (Westerner)? Especially since those people (so far) have tan and dark skin.

That proves nothing. Roy's family are Northerners as well, and they don't seem very Scandinavian to me. So Elan's mother or father could easily be from the West, and he was merely raised in the North.

[Hann]

Hey, this is a little off topic, but you know how in Start of Darkness, there are two unnamed Northern Gods? One with a beard, and another with a helmet and plate covering the top half of his face? Any Ideas on who they might be? I was thinking the second one might be Tyr, as he has a sword, but he isn't missing a hand, so I'm not sure.

[shadzar]

Hey, this is a little off topic, but you know how in Start of Darkness, there are two unnamed Northern Gods? One with a beard, and another with a helmet and plate covering the top half of his face? Any Ideas on who they might be? I was thinking the second one might be Tyr, as he has a sword, but he isn't missing a hand, so I'm not sure.

So you think they are Hailey's and Elan/Nale's fathers? :smallconfused:
Interesting.

[Acero]

Trust people who have been avidly reading Greek myth all their life, and have also read the Illiad and the Odyssey.

ie. Me.

trust people who study it for 45min every weekday, watch history channel, and watched the movie versions of those books, Jason and the Agronauts, AND hercules (disney got it wrong)

Ie. Me!:smallwink:

[Watcher]

That proves nothing. Roy's family are Northerners as well, and they don't seem very Scandinavian to me. So Elan's mother or father could easily be from the West, and he was merely raised in the North.

There was also the priest of Freya who had dark skin and was an assumed Northerner. But you don't see tan-skinned Northerners or Fair-skinned Westerners. The Southern Lands seem to have no natives with lighter skin than Hinjo's. Since the Western Continent seems to be Middle-East/Africa themed so far, its pretty safe to say none of the pure natives have fair skin unless they have very good reason to have it (like staying holed up underground for 20 years or having a disease). I can't see how Elan's mother could possibly be anything but a Northerner, and I'm leaning toward Elan's father having been a Northerner and conquered parts of the Western Continent. Not sure how exactly to explain the head on the pike here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0050.html).

[Tiktakkat]

the Roman Gods are Renamed Greek Gods.

No, they are not.
Roman deities are distinct, often extremely different, from the Greek deities they are generally equated with.
What the Romans did, as the Greeks before them, was use syncretism as a tool of understanding and assimilation. They would consider all the stories of a foreign deity, consider their attributes, and then declare said deity an aspect of one of theirs, often applying the foreign deities name or location as an appellation of their native deity.


Plus- the very first printing had to get subsequently yanked 'cause it included the intellectual property of Fritz Leiber (i.e. Lankhmar/Nehwon) and H.P. Lovecraft (Cthulhu, etc.)

Yes and no.
The Leiber stuff got to stay, at least for a time, because TSR had a license to do Lankhmar stuff.
The Lovecraft and Moorcock (Elric) stuff got dumped because Chaosium had an license to do both as RPG, and an agreement to cite Chaosium as a source of more material for both that Gygax negotiated was rejected by other TSR partners. That is why you will find 2nd printing versions that make note of that, while 3rd printing versions delete those two altogether.