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darkblust
2009-09-06, 07:23 PM
Okay,We're starting a new campaign.There is a fighter/druid who charges on his dog,a monk(blehk!:smallyuk:) ,a cleric,and a most-likely generalist wizard.

My question,is which is better,a warmage or a wizard?Is there something that the party would be better with (other then a rogue)?

Gorgondantess
2009-09-06, 07:24 PM
Wizard.

/thread

Kylarra
2009-09-06, 07:25 PM
Agreed. Wizard > warmage by a ridiculous amount.

Heck sorcerer > warmage. :smallbiggrin:

Indon
2009-09-06, 07:25 PM
What do you want to do with the character?

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-06, 07:26 PM
If you want to be anything but a blaster, be a wizard.

If you want to be a blaster... still play a wizard. You'll be better regardless.

Myou
2009-09-06, 07:30 PM
In power, wizard.

But it depends on what you want.

Zeta Kai
2009-09-06, 07:31 PM
Wizard: Tier 1.

Warmage: Tier 4.

Wizards are demonstrably better than Warmages in every conceivable way. Gorgondantess was right; this thread is over.

Swordguy
2009-09-06, 07:31 PM
No. Hold up, people. Look at the other members of the damn party. There's a fighter and a monk. That smells like people who are playing the game the way WotC intended it to be played, not a group of optimizers.

So yes, while a wizard is the more powerful option, it's also out of line for the given assumed power level of the group, especially the way people on this board suggest - no, mandate - wizards be played.

Thus, OP, if you want to fit in with the power level of the rest of your group and don't want to double up against the wizard already there, grab the warmage. If you want to break the game and quite possible cause bad feelings by making everybody else NOT have fun so you can play an obscenely overpowered class...play a wizard.

Your call.

Gorgondantess
2009-09-06, 07:31 PM
Actually... I may have spoken too soon. If you don't know what you're doing- which could be assumed, considering you're asking the question (no offense meant at all, we were all beginners at one time- heck, I once went into a fit seeing how much more powerful the warblade is than the fighter, thus calling it broken:smallredface:.) Anyhow, you can't go wrong with a warmage. You throw out a bunch of damaging spells, you do some okay damage, the end. Wizards are easier to mess up. If you go into things wanting to be a blaster mage, warmage is a better choice. But... if you have the sense to realize grease is a good spell, then have the sense to realize glitterdust is a good spell, then have the sense to realize fly is a good spell... wizard, hands down, is more powerful.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-06, 07:32 PM
Even if he plays a blaster-wizard, he'll still be better due to having spells not solely focused on blasting. He will have uses outside of combat.

Even if a beer-and-pretzels casual non-optimization game, the wizard is more useful than the warmage. Always.

If there's another wizard in the party... even better! Master each other's spellbooks. That way, you can focus on getting totally different spells when you level up, and only ever need one copy of a scroll.

HCL
2009-09-06, 07:32 PM
warmage is best for very low level games unless you want to prestige out at level 6

best prestige class to go is rainbow servant if you have complete arcane, prestige bard and lyric thaumaturge are really useful also. the point is you can cast anything on your spell list

If you dont have access to awesome munchkiny prestige classes stick with wizard

darkblust
2009-09-06, 07:36 PM
Yeah,havent been playing for that long,but would anything else be good with the party,you think?

Kylarra
2009-09-06, 07:37 PM
You know what would be good if you wanted a rogue-ish feel but still have spells at your disposal? Beguiler.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-06, 07:40 PM
If you need a rogue, play an artificer instead. All the 'essential' parts of the rogue, plus the best parts of the wizard.

They can also be very blasty, if that's your thing.

Kris Strife
2009-09-06, 07:40 PM
But... if you have the sense to realize grease is a good spell, then have the sense to realize glitterdust is a good spell, then have the sense to realize fly is a good spell... wizard, hands down, is more powerful.

Eclectic Learning ACF, take those spells. :smalltongue: Heck, I intend to take Prestidigiation on mine.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-06, 07:41 PM
Well, there is no rogue ... so maybe go for arcane trickster for a bit of both?

Gorgondantess
2009-09-06, 07:42 PM
Even if he plays a blaster-wizard, he'll still be better due to having spells not solely focused on blasting. He will have uses outside of combat.

Even if a beer-and-pretzels casual non-optimization game, the wizard is more useful than the warmage. Always.

If there's another wizard in the party... even better! Master each other's spellbooks. That way, you can focus on getting totally different spells when you level up, and only ever need one copy of a scroll.

Consider this: At level 1 he enters combat. His spells memorized? Burning Hands, Unseen Servant and, let's assume he's a specialist in whatever, ohhh.... feather fall. That might be a common rookie spells memorized. Who's going to do better in this combat? The wizard or the warmage?

Kylarra
2009-09-06, 07:42 PM
Eclectic Learning ACF, take those spells. :smalltongue: Heck, I intend to take Prestidigiation on mine.
Presti is cool, but kind of not worth a 1st level slot. :( burning cantrips for it though... :smallamused:

Eldariel
2009-09-06, 07:43 PM
Beguiler [PHBII], Artificer [ECS] or Unseen Seer [CMage] (in other words, Rogue 1/Wizard 4/Unseen Seer 10/Whatever 5) are all good options if you want arcane casting and to be a skill monkey.

Beguiler has limited casting, but best skills; Unseen Seer has to multiclass which some might consider a downside and loses 1 level of casting (so he's tied with Beguiler level-wise); Artificer has lots of bookkeeping, smallest skill list and least points, but most raw potential.


I'd go Unseen Seer maself, but then again, I love that class and I love Wizard's versatility spell selection-wise. Also, it has to multiclass which new DMs may frown upon (and you need to burn a feat on Practiced Spellcaster to negate the lost caster levels Unseen Seer bestows upon you). Your choice.

Myou
2009-09-06, 07:46 PM
You know, after re-reading the Warmage, I'm amazed.

It seems to be a sorcerer that trades what little flexability it has for light/medium armour and a few more HP (1 per level).

Oh, and a few bonus feats that a wizard would have had anyway.

Adding int to damage is great at low levels, but it seems pointless at high levels. Plus int is otherwise a dump stat.

Kris Strife
2009-09-06, 07:48 PM
You know, after re-reading the Warmage, I'm amazed.

It seems to be a sorcerer that trades what little flexability it has for light/medium armour and a few more HP (1 per level).

Oh, and a few bonus feats that a wizard would have had anyway.

Adding int to damage is great at low levels, but it seems pointless at high levels. Plus int is otherwise a dump stat.

Its also a spontaneous class that gets the sudden metamagic spells as class features. And I believe you get the spells as appropriate to their level, unless I misread it.

HamHam
2009-09-06, 07:48 PM
The warmage spell list is actually pretty solid, and has plenty of non-blasting spells one it.

Kylarra
2009-09-06, 07:49 PM
Actually if he's going to be a blaster, I'd suggest sorcerer over warmage.

Eldariel
2009-09-06, 07:50 PM
Adding int to damage is great at low levels, but it seems pointless at high levels. Plus int is otherwise a dump stat.

It matters at level 1. It makes Cantrips useful damage-wise. Unfortunately, this doesn't last: By level 5, it's already mostly trivial and by level 7-8, it's completely obsolete. And that's with 18+ Int. Any less and it'll be obsolete by level 5 and hardly useful even on level 1.

Really, for Warmages to be good, they should get some metamagic reduction abilities and Warmage Edge should somehow improve over their progression. Then they'd be decent blasters. As it stands, they're Sorcerers pidgeonholed to sucking.


Frankly, Unseen Seer is great offensively, 'cause you can add precision damage to spells with attack roll. Great for sniping people with rays. Easily has a Warmage beat in damage (and everything else), though damaging area spells will merely be equally good (so you'll have to use the useful ones like Glitterdust; OMIGOSH!).

Why do people always go for Sorcerers for damage anyways? Aren't Wizards just as good or better thanks to specialization? Like, if you wanna play Sorcerer, fine, but if you wanna play a blaster, you could play either one and do fine.

Kylarra
2009-09-06, 07:54 PM
The warmage spell list is actually pretty solid, and has plenty of non-blasting spells one it.
You must be looking at a different list than me. :(

0-Light
1-Accuracy*, Fist of Stone*, True Strike*
2-Continual Flame, Pyrotechnics
3-Gust of Wind, Sleet Storm
4-?
5-?
6-Tenser's Transformation*
7-Waves of Exhaustion*, Earthquake
8-Prismatic Wall*
9-?

Anything *'d has combat application mainly.

So... Continual Flame, Pyrotechnics, Gust of Wind, Sleet Storm, Earthquake; the latter of 3 have some non-combat application, but mainly combat.


Why do people always go for Sorcerers for damage anyways? Aren't Wizards just as good or better thanks to specialization? Like, if you wanna play Sorcerer, fine, but if you wanna play a blaster, you could play either one and do fine.I was mostly throwing it out as a counter to the spells memorized thing, and as something I'd recommend over warmage if he didn't feel like being a wizard.

Jalor
2009-09-06, 07:57 PM
Also, Evocation is a better school than people say it is. Manyjaws, Howling Chain, Wings of Flurry, Streamers, Contingency, Great Thunderclap...

There are a surprising amount of good BC spells in Evocation, and the Warmage can be a ridiculous Glass Cannon with Orb spells and Arcane Thesis.

Taking Rainbow Servant and Arcane Disciple can make it a low Tier 2, and heavy optimization and Arcane Disciple can put it at Tier 3. Also, he can qualify for Incantatrix and Halruaan Elder for even more meta-cheese IIRC.

darkblust
2009-09-06, 07:57 PM
I'm already playing a beguiler,but if i wasnt,it would be my first choice.Thats a really underpowered character though... I took two weapon fighting,and now i just whack things with 2 +2 flaming whip-swords.And i use my spells sometimes,but,yeah.

Did anyone read the original post?I asked two questoins,yeah know...

Are psionics any good?I looked at the power list quickly,and they didnt seem to get much.

Myou
2009-09-06, 07:59 PM
Yeah, I agree with Eladriel and Kylarra, warmages get pretty useless abilities and spells compared to a sorcerer.

Int to damage is great if you're casting scorching hands on tightly packed foes at level 1, but I can hardly imagine any ability that scales more poorly, I actually burst out laughing reading it - it's like a bad joke.


Also, Evocation is a better school than people say it is. Manyjaws, Howling Chain, Wings of Flurry, Streamers, Contingency, Great Thunderclap...

There are a surprising amount of good BC spells in Evocation, and the Warmage can be a ridiculous Glass Cannon with Orb spells and Arcane Thesis.

Taking Rainbow Servant and Arcane Disciple can make it a low Tier 2, and heavy optimization and Arcane Disciple can put it at Tier 3. Also, he can qualify for Incantatrix and Halruaan Elder for even more meta-cheese IIRC.

But you're just describing broken PrCs and feats, any caster can use those tricks, and better than the warmage can. :smallconfused:



@OP: No, probably not.

Gorgondantess
2009-09-06, 08:01 PM
I'm already playing a beguiler,but if i wasnt,it would be my first choice.Thats a really underpowered character though... I took two weapon fighting,and now i just whack things with 2 +2 flaming whip-swords.And i use my spells sometimes,but,yeah.

Did anyone read the original post?I asked two questoins,yeah know...

...If that's the case, I'd strongly advise you ask your DM if you can swap out those levels with something... better for that. Ranger, maybe.
Beguiler would be the first thing I'd say in that case, so... swap out those levels, and play a beguiler in this game.

HamHam
2009-09-06, 08:02 PM
Poison, Evard's Black Tentacles, Contagion, Cloudkill, Prismatic Ray, Circle of Death, Acid Fog (has the normal Solid Fog effect in addition to acid damage), Finger of Death, Prismatic Spray, Scintillating Pattern

Plus Advanced Learning.


So... Continual Flame, Pyrotechnics, Gust of Wind, Sleet Storm, Earthquake; the latter of 3 have some non-combat application, but mainly combat.

I didn't say non-combat, I said non-blasting.

Anyway, your main utility spells are going to be Shatter and Disintergrate. You basically never have to deal with locked doors ever again.

Kylarra
2009-09-06, 08:02 PM
I'm already playing a beguiler,but if i wasnt,it would be my first choice.Thats a really underpowered character though... I took two weapon fighting,and now i just whack things with 2 +2 flaming whip-swords.And i use my spells sometimes,but,yeah.

Did anyone read the original post?I asked two questoins,yeah know...
Well that does clarify the optimization question about average power level.


Anyway, a skillmonkey is nice, but not necessarily needed. If you're already playing a beguiler and don't like it, I'd probably recommend Eldariel's unseen seer build. That'd keep you with blasty spells and still allow you to do whatever.

I guess the bigger question is, what sort of role do you want to fill/type of character do you want to play?

edit: missed this edit


Are psionics any good?I looked at the power list quickly,and they didnt seem to get much.
If you want to play a blaster, a kineticist is an awesome blasty char.

Eldariel
2009-09-06, 08:05 PM
I'm already playing a beguiler,but if i wasnt,it would be my first choice.Thats a really underpowered character though... I took two weapon fighting,and now i just whack things with 2 +2 flaming whip-swords.And i use my spells sometimes,but,yeah.

Did anyone read the original post?I asked two questoins,yeah know...

Are psionics any good?I looked at the power list quickly,and they didnt seem to get much.

The problem is that you aren't telling us what you're trying to do! Warmage vs. Wizards...well, Wizard is better, but for what?! Your party right now...yeah, Wizard is always a good addition, but you really need a skill monkey, so if you don't want to play a Rogue, we listed various ways you can be a full caster while getting enough skill points to handle skillmonkeying without being a Rogue (yes, Unseen Seer has 1 level of Rogue, but that ain't gonna kill you). But we just aren't getting your own desires out of you so this is incredibly difficult.

Psionics aren't as strong as well-used arcane casting, but are great for e.g. blasting. They are plenty good though, but a bit more limited due to the way the schools work for Psions (and others are even worse off in that regard). Don't get me wrong, Psionics are awesome and every game is better with Psionics, but purely power-wise, they aren't quite up there with spellcasting.

Mattarias, King.
2009-09-06, 08:07 PM
:smallbiggrin: Warmage. Hands down. Blowing stuff up is fun!

Jalor
2009-09-06, 08:08 PM
But you're just describing broken PrCs and feats, any caster can use those tricks, and better than the warmage can. :smallconfused:Doesn't make them any less good. In a real game, it's almost better because you're doing what you're supposed to (killing things), but you don't make the rest of the party feel useless.

@OP: Go with psionics if you can. Balanced, fun, better for blasting.

Kylarra
2009-09-06, 08:10 PM
Psionics aren't as strong as well-used arcane casting, but are great for e.g. blasting. They are plenty good though, but a bit more limited due to the way the schools work for Psions (and others are even worse off in that regard). Don't get me wrong, Psionics are awesome and every game is better with Psionics, but purely power-wise, they aren't quite up there with spellcasting.Clearly the solution is to replace all the casters with psions! VIVA LA REVOLUTION DEL MENTE!

Starbuck_II
2009-09-06, 08:11 PM
Yes, vivi le Mind!

Gorgondantess
2009-09-06, 08:13 PM
Doesn't make them any less good. In a real game, it's almost better because you're doing what you're supposed to (killing things), but you don't make the rest of the party feel useless.


Nonsense. A wizard can be awesome, and yet make the rest of the party feel useful. Let's look at the description for battlefield control wizards on Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards: Being a God. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19873034/Treantmonks_guide_to_Wizards_Being_a_God)

In order to be an effective battlefield controller - you should consider your primary goal to line up your enemies flanked by your Glass Cannon and Big Stupid Fighter one at a time and backwards, all while standing on their heads. This will make the BSF and the GC win the combat with little damage to themselves - and they will feel like "they" won. That's the point - you're God after all, let the mortals have their victory.
A good wizard greases the baddies, then lets the Big Stupid Fighter and Glass Cannon rape their prone bodies. You aren't stealing the show- you just make things completely in your party's favor.

@Kylarra: Actually, psions are far better balanced than any other caster. It's really a great system.

Myou
2009-09-06, 08:15 PM
Doesn't make them any less good. In a real game, it's almost better because you're doing what you're supposed to (killing things), but you don't make the rest of the party feel useless.

@OP: Go with psionics if you can. Balanced, fun, better for blasting.

But it's not an argument in favour of the warmage. The warmage is a weak class that can only compete through broken feats or by taking levels in other classes.

In a real game you can do all of that without the warmage, you can do it as a sorcerer or wizard, and do it better, and still not make the party feel useless.

Kylarra
2009-09-06, 08:15 PM
@Kylarra: Actually, psions are far better balanced than any other caster. It's really a great system.
Psionics are my favorite "casting" system tbh. :smallbiggrin:

Eldariel
2009-09-06, 08:18 PM
Psionics are my favorite "casting" system tbh. :smallbiggrin:

Mine would be Tome of Battle, but as it doesn't count as casting, I'll have to go with Psionics too. Man, it's so versatile it's not even funny; augmenting, metapsionics, you can just alter your powers in so many ways that sometimes you're surprised you're even looking at the same power anymore.

AstralFire
2009-09-06, 08:21 PM
Psionics rocks.

Godskook
2009-09-06, 08:26 PM
Try a ToB class. Either Warblade or Swordsage, probably. If you don't mind dipping the first 2 levels into Rogue and grabbing Able Learner, you could probably fill out your party's absolutely needed skillmonkey essentials(If you do that, going Warblade would give you better synergy for your int investment, while Swordsage will give you more skill points/level). Actually, going Warblade would probably be better if you've already got a charger in the group, since white raven tactics is made for make you the friend of other chargers in your group.

AstralFire
2009-09-06, 08:29 PM
While I love Tome of Battle, I think putting in suggestions for it when the topic is clearly about casters - and implying blast-casters - is a bit overmuch.

Indon
2009-09-06, 08:40 PM
While I love Tome of Battle, I think putting in suggestions for it when the topic is clearly about casters - and implying blast-casters - is a bit overmuch.

Sounds like a job for the Arcane Swordsage!

But seriously, dark, it sounds like you want to fill out the party's weaknesses while having an interesting and novel character. Soooo... have you ever heard of the Factotum?

It's a skill-monkey class that picks up a huge variety of little tricks - a couple spells, some minor uses of divine energy, that sort of thing.

kamikasei
2009-09-07, 03:38 AM
Clearly the solution is to replace all the casters with psions! VIVA LA REVOLUTION DEL MENTE!

"Finally, psionic beings rule the world - the mages are dead

The mages are dead

We used psionic classes

And we mindwiped their asses"

If you want someone to blow things up with (totally not) magic, use a psion (kineticist). If you want someone to sneak around and pick locks and stuff, use Eldariel's Unseen Seer build or a Beguiler. Either of those also give you a bunch of options for helping out the rest of the party either by buffing them or hindering the enemy. Just be aware that for a Beguiler, you should be using spells much more than weapons if you want to play to the class' strengths.

FMArthur
2009-09-07, 08:53 AM
If you're already considering taking warmage over wizard, you clearly want a psion. :smallwink:

Rainbownaga
2009-09-07, 04:21 PM
If your problem is that you don't want to be standing their swinging swords around like a commoner with a pitchfork, warmage is probably a safer bet until you get into higher levels.

Wizard- Great if you know what you're fighting, but if you prepare the awesome spells without knowing who you'll be fighting you run the risk of having half your spell list sitting their useless. Also, they have the weakest weapon proficiency list of any class, useless AC and HP which requires burning more spells to compensate for, and your cantrips are a waste of time.

Warmage- If you have a good intelligence, the cantrips deal damage, you can cast a spell every round in combat and it will probably be effective, you have armor and hit points so you don't have to waste spells on shield (you can't anyway).

That said, precocious apprentice+acidic splatter or fiery burst gives wizards all day casting from level 1, so YMMV

woodenbandman
2009-09-07, 05:17 PM
Warmage is a perfectly good class that gets a lot of unnecessary crap from people who don't want to give up the idea that any given wizard will be omniscient, powerful enough to destroy the world, fun to play, and fit into any group perfectly like the proverbial glass slipper.

Warmage is fun. Warmage also has good spells. It is a perfectly viable option to play a warmage all the way from 1 to 20 or to prestige class out and become an uttercold specialist or a born of the three thunders bot or whatever.

For a warmage, I'd suggest that you focus on the damage aspect, and make use of Arcane Thesis. Pick something like Disintegrate or Greater Fireburst. Metamagic goes a long way for a blaster. Don't neglect your Eclectic and/or advanced learning. howling chain is great, so is Wall of Force. Also remember the spells like Stinking Cloud, Black Tentacles, and Cloudkill. Those are very useful to toss out so you can lock enemies down and waste them with spells.

I personally recommend warmage for your group. It'll fit better.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-07, 05:21 PM
But you can do everything a warmage can do as a wizard. You don't even have less spell slots if you're a focused specialist. And you have less MAD, so you will likely have more bonus spells.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-07, 07:45 PM
Warmage is a perfectly good class that gets a lot of unnecessary crap from people who don't want to give up the idea that any given wizard will be omniscient, powerful enough to destroy the world, fun to play, and fit into any group perfectly like the proverbial glass slipper.

For a warmage, I'd suggest that you focus on the damage aspect, and make use of Arcane Thesis. Pick something like Disintegrate or Greater Fireburst. Metamagic goes a long way for a blaster. Don't neglect your Eclectic and/or advanced learning. howling chain is great, so is Wall of Force. Also remember the spells like Stinking Cloud, Black Tentacles, and Cloudkill. Those are very useful to toss out so you can lock enemies down and waste them with spells.

I personally recommend warmage for your group. It'll fit better.Because I'm lazy:and refuse to link to the new Wizards forums

Let's see. As a Warmage, you get... how many Eclectic Learnings? Wow, you know three useful non-Warmage spells (the cantrip doesn't count).
Meanwhile, the blaster sorcerer has, what, one damage spell per level at most, plus metamagic? Hell, let's say two at some levels. He still has vastly more utility and defense.

The Warmage knows a bunch of spells, but with a couple of exceptions--Black Tentacles, say--they all do either single-target or area damage. Having 20 ways to do that isn't any better than having 10 ways, if those 10 are the best.

And then there's the fact that the Sorcerer can take, say, Wings of Flurry, or Maw of Chaos. So the Warmage doesn't even have the best damage spells in the game availible to him. How about Moonbow? Nope, he's out of luck.

Tell me, what do you take for your Warmage's Eclectic Learning? Mirror Image, Fly (which you don't get until level *11*), and Spell Turning would be my choices.

(spell list spoilered for length-SstoopidTallKid)Here's your Warmage's 9th-level spells, by the way: Elemental Swarm (sucks), Implosion (not bad), Meteor Swarm (sucks), Prismatic Sphere (okay, but there are better spells).

Meanwhile, the Sorcerer takes, say, Maw of Chaos, Time Stop, and Shapechange.

Maw of Chaos + Time Stop = Win. Shapechange also = Win. Choker for two spells/round, or Nymph for CHA to AC and saves? Up to you.

8th level spells: Horrid Wilting (okay for a damage spell), Incendiary Cloud (sucks), Polar Ray (sucks, metamagic an Orb for more damage and no SR), Prismatic Wall (okay, but enemies will avoid it), Scintillating Pattern (sucks 90% of the time), Greater Shout (sucks), Sunburst (meh).

What does the sorcerer take? How about Avascular Mass, Veil of Undeath, and Irresistible Dance?

7th level: DB Fireball (sucks), Earthquake (sucks), Finger of Death (OK, but kinda sucks because of the [Death] descriptor), Fire Storm (sucks), Prismatic Spray (sucks), Mordenkainen's Sword (meh), Sunbeam (meh), Waves of Exhaustion (pretty good).

Sorcerer: Spell Turning, Solipsism, Radiant Assault

6th level: Acid Fog (meh), Blade Barrier (meh; pretty good if you have specific party members, i.e. knockback/bullrush through it), Chain Lightning (sucks), Circle of Death (sucks), Disintegrate (sucks--better for utility than for anything else), Fire Seeds (ok if cheesed), Freezing Sphere (sucks), Tenser's Transformation (blows goats for pocket change)

Sorcerer: Greater Dispel Magic, Repulsion, Flesh to Stone

5th: Arc of Lightning (meh), Cloudkill (meh at high levels, everything's poison-immune), Cone of Cold (meh), Mass Fire Shield (decent), Greater Fireburst (crappy), Flame Strike (meh), Prismatic Ray (meh).

Sorcerer: Greater Blink, Moonbow, Teleport, Feeblemind

4th: Blast of Flame (sucks), Contagion (sucks), Black Tentacles (good at first, bad later), Orbs, Phantasmal Killer (craptastic), Shout (craptastic-er), Wall of Fire (sucks)

Sorcerer: Enervation, Wings of Flurry, Orb of Acid, Greater Mirror Image

3rd: Fire Shield (meh), Fireball (sucks), Flame Arrow (sucks), Gust of Wind (sucks), Ice Storm (sucks), Lightning Bolt (sucks), Poison (touch -- sucks), RIng of Blades (sucks), Sleet Storm (pretty bad), Stinking Cloud (good).

Sorcerer: Slow, Stinking Cloud, Fly, Ray of Exhaustion or Dizziness. He had haste until he swapped it out

I won't even bother with 2nd and 1st, but let's just say that the warmage doesn't get Glitterdust or See Invisible or Ray of Enfeeblement and that Wings of Cover is absolutely cheesetastic. The sorcerer takes Heighten Spell, Empower Spell, Split Ray, and Twin Spell or Rapid Metamagic/Quicken Spell. There's even room for Sudden empower/maximize. He picks up Elemental Substitution, unless he waits for Archmage's Mastery of Elements. Maybe Chain Spell.

The sorcerer has both Will/Fort Save or Lose for both single targets and groups, spells with no-save effects (Avascular Mass, Ray of Dizziness, Irresistible Dance, Enervation), has both single-target and group damage in better forms than the Warmage, often with great secondary effects built in (Wings of Flurry has a 1-round daze on the failed Ref save... oh, and no CL cap... Radiant Assault is Will save vs. 1d6 rounds of daze), has better offenses against enemy mages, better defenses against all sorts of enemies (Fly, Wings of Cover, Greater Mirror Image, Repulsion, Spell Turning, Shapechange, Teleport), and has far more versatility.

Which enemies is this Sorcerer worse at fighting--even if he uses primarily blasty spells rather than crap like Split Ray Empowered Enervation plus Quickened --than any Warmage, exactly?


In conclusion, a Sorcerer can be a much better blaster than a Warmage, while having the exact same flavor (military mage), defending himself vastly better, being more mobile, having more utility, and not being limited to only blasting, being able to toss out both AoE and single-target save-or-lose spells for both Fort and Will saves (Including against mind-immune creatures, thanks to things like Heightened Slow).
And it's not just about personal power--you'll contribute a lot more to the party. Maybe you avoided Shapechange and Polymorph because they're broken, and took Superior Resistance as a 6th level spell and Mind Blank as an 8th level spell and you cast them on everyone--can the Warmage do that?


There is no reason to play a Warmage. Pretty much ever.


You can adjust the above list based on preference (maybe you have cheese running through your veins and want Celerity in there, or maybe you realize that this is just an example and you shouldn't ACTUALLY use Polymorph/Shapechange in play); I'll add book-restricted lists to further posts later.

HamHam
2009-09-07, 07:49 PM
Sorcerer's don't get Armored Mage. Or bonus spontaneous metamagic.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-07, 08:01 PM
A sorcerer doesn't need armour. He has defensive spells that make armour class obsolete.

And if he really wants armour, he can wear a +1 twilight mithril chain shirt. It has a 0% arcane spell failure, and has no armour check penalty, so he loses absolutely nothing for wearing it.

Eldariel
2009-09-07, 08:11 PM
A sorcerer doesn't need armour. He has defensive spells that make armour class obsolete.

And if he really wants armour, he can wear a +1 twilight mithril chain shirt. It has a 0% arcane spell failure, and has no armour check penalty, so he loses absolutely nothing for wearing it.

Or he could just learn Mage Armor which is pretty much going to match the bonus granted by any armor Warmage ever learns to wear anyways, while having no speed reductions, ACP, cost or any other similar nonsense. Best standard armor a Warmage can ever wear is a Breastplate and that's +1 higher than Mage Armor (both can be Magic Vestmented).

I suppose he could pick up Mithril Full-Plate, to which Sorcerer could pick up Greater Luminous Armor, still being tied AC-wise (Sorcerer needs to do something about the ability damage...like Lesser Restoration). And this is if he really wants an armor. Most of the time, he just doesn't particularly care.


And honestly, why wouldn't you want to multiclass to some better PrC by midlevels anyways? When talking about Sorc, there's no reason not to so you'll probably be looking at a PrC already by midlevels and since PrCs have better class features than the standard Warmage progression, he'll probably PrC out too.

And once we account for this very obvious eventuality, the Warmage doesn't even get his Advanced Learnings. Warmage is great for one thing: Making damage cantrips count on level 1 with 18+ Int. That's...pretty much it.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-07, 08:38 PM
He could take that one feat that boosts "cast in armour" class abilities by one level.

But then he's spending a feat on something a sorcerer only needs to spend a single spell known on.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-07, 10:30 PM
Sorcerer's don't get Armored Mage. Or bonus spontaneous metamagic.

Don't need the first ability, and prestige classes solve the second problem.

Glimbur
2009-09-07, 10:38 PM
In summary, play Warmage if you want a wide variety of spells that do essentially the same thing, with a few outliers. They have lots of direct damage spells in a fair variety, but cannot easily gain spells from later books that might be more effective.

Play Wizard if you are confident in your ability to pick helpful spells and prepare the right ones. This is actually easier than it sounds, and advice abounds. Also, wizards get more support from later books.

dspeyer
2009-09-08, 12:24 AM
Is there something that the party would be better with (other then a rogue)?

It sounds like there's already a bunch of damage-dealers and a generalist wizard, so maybe this isn't the right approach. A skillmonkey is rather lacking. Have you considered bard? Inspire courage can make a big difference with three melee characters.

AslanCross
2009-09-08, 12:46 AM
"Finally, psionic beings rule the world - the mages are dead

The mages are dead

We used psionic classes

And we mindwiped their asses"

I would like to interrupt this thread to give this man an Internet.

Anyway, my thoughts on this matter:

1. Wizards are much more versatile than the warmage. This is a given.
2. Wizards don't need to be played to the logical broken conclusion. They will still be quite squishy at low levels and only really become crazy above Lv 12.
3. The Psion is an insanely good blaster. There's one in my current group and she solves problems (monsters) just by squinting. If the OP really wants to play a blaster, I would suggest Psion. The Psion's Power Points are far easier to budget per day than spell slots. Just remember that augmentation is not unlimited.

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-08, 01:33 AM
I agree with taking psion as your class.

As far as "psions don't get many damaging powers," you really don't need many. One for ranged touch attacks (energy ray, energy conversion, or crystal shard), one (generally area of effect) power for targeting Ref/Fort saves (energy cone, energy bolt, energy burst or [for precision targeting, but not lots of targets] energy missile], one for Will saves (mind thrust, though you'd be better off finding a way to get psionic dominate), and one to bypass Power Resistance and energy immunities (crystal shard, hail of crystals, or swarm of crystals). And, really, that's actually more than you really need, frankly.

You might actually consider going for shaper levels. Astral construct rocks socks past level 1 or 2, and psionic minor creation is just badass.

Shaper 10/3.5 constructor (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040625b) 10 (or shaper 5/constructor 10/random PrC 5) is an awesome build, all things considered. Tons of utility, great stamina, lots of damage output if you do things right...it's great all around.

Just remember, however, that the best all-around manifester is generally psion 20; prestige classes almost ALWAYS lose you at least one manifester level, so make sure the loss is worth it (and with constructor it so very much is, so long as you can use your astral constructs cleverly and effectively to solve 90% of your problems).