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lawsofrobotics
2009-09-06, 08:38 PM
I had a question for the optimizers on these boards: If I wanted to build an unarmed and unarmored sneak-attacker, what would be the best combinations of classes? I was thinking a swordsage/rogue, but I was wondering if there was a better mix out there. I like the idea of playing swordsage, as I was looking at Tome of Battle for the first time the other day and was finding all these maneuvers and stances that let you flank opponents really easily at very low levels.

Also, what about feats I often find myself lost with the number of feats out there, and am not sure which ones would be best to take for my sneak. And is there any way to get a monk's fast movement progression as a swordsage? I would love to have that in the mix.

Thanks.

rezplz
2009-09-06, 08:46 PM
Well, if you're going to be unarmed and unarmored anyway... I might take a risk and suggest a few levels of monk. Compared to other classes they aren't good, but if you're already going to take away weapons and armor you might as well.

I don't know much about ToB though so there might be better stuff in there.

Eldariel
2009-09-06, 08:53 PM
Unarmed Swordsage 4 (taken at strategic intervals to maximize maneuver access)/Rogue 16 with Ascetic Rogue-feat should do it. If your DM asks for actual Monk-levels for Ascetic Rogue, take 2. They aren't bad anyways; two handy bonus feats and so on. Flurry is just pretty weak with your BAB.

Straight Unarmed Swordsage would be good, but not much of a Sneak Attacker as...well, it doesn't advance Sneak Attack (Assassin's Stance grants you 2). It'd make for a good sneaky unarmed character though; there are plenty of maneuvers in Shadow Hand that basically are used like sneak attacks. Monk 2/Unarmed Swordsage 8/Shadow Sun Ninja 10 would also work out, and get full Flurry progression while at it.

sofawall
2009-09-06, 08:55 PM
Unarmed Swordsage/rogue sounds decent to me.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-06, 10:03 PM
Unarmed Swordsage >>> Monk. If you have the option to use ToB, then bloody well USE it.

Here's some suggestions:

1) Shadow Blade. Since you are going to be using a lot of Shadow Hand stances anyways (Island of Blades for better flanking and Assassin's Stance for extra sneak attack dice), you might as well let it give you Dex to damage as well. This means Str is a dump stat.

2) Setting Sun has some fun counters for "No, actually you don't hurt me". Baffling Defense and Manticore Parry are two that figure prominently in my mind.

3) Best way to increase precision-based damage is to apply it more often. That generally means Two-Weapon-Fighting. That means a two-level dip in Bloodclaw Master may be of interest to you. Negates TWF penalty and you get full Str (now full Dex with Shadow Blade) to damage with off hand. This is made of Win.

4) Going along that same line of "Best way to increase SA damage is to use it more often", Pouncing Strike is of use to you, getting you into position AND giving him a full attack in one shot. This gets even better with Monk levels thrown in, because you actually get to USE Flurry more than once in a blue moon.

Woodsman
2009-09-06, 10:17 PM
Manticore Parry is Iron Heart, so warblades only.

You could also use Superior Unarmed Strike (Feat from ToB) to gain greater unarmed damage at higher levels. Not as good as a monk's, but better than 1d4.

You could also ask the DM to use the no-armor/unarmed-damage-as-monk variant the ToB mentions as well.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-06, 10:31 PM
Manticore Parry is Iron Heart, so warblades only.

You could also use Superior Unarmed Strike (Feat from ToB) to gain greater unarmed damage at higher levels. Not as good as a monk's, but better than 1d4.

You could also ask the DM to use the no-armor/unarmed-damage-as-monk variant the ToB mentions as well.

Oh yes, I was thinking Fool's Strike, which does the same thing. Then use Shifting Defense to prevent him from hitting you with a full attack. Ever.

Sophismata
2009-09-07, 02:04 AM
Unarmed Swordsage / Rogue. Focus on Dex and Wis, get Weapon Finesse and Shadow Blade (the latter will need to be first). Take Snap Kick and Ascetic Rogue when you can.

I'd probably go Unarmed Swordsage 1 (Shadow hand Focus) / Rogue 3 to begin, then take Swordsage levels as needed to get higher level manoeuvres.