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king.com
2009-09-07, 04:55 AM
Been reading a bit of the wizard = Imaharginmawhateverthehellineedtobedoingatthetimes pell posting.

What would be interesting would be a wizard only campaign, maybe starting in an academy or somesuch. Anyone actually tried this and if so at what point does it become impossible to challenge the party (assuming you have skilled players).

kamikasei
2009-09-07, 04:57 AM
Multiclassing and/or PrCing allowed?

Temet Nosce
2009-09-07, 04:59 AM
What would be interesting would be a wizard only campaign, maybe starting in an academy or somesuch. Anyone actually tried this and if so at what point does it become impossible to challenge the party (assuming you have skilled players).

I haven't but I've wanted to play in a 1 class campaign for a while. As for challenging them? Pretty much never, you need to remember... You're the DM. Anything the players can do, you can do better. You have access to everything they do, and a massive amount more.

Now, if you were just pulling monsters from the MMs, then it might get harder. Still, provided you use encounter CRs of at least overpowering once they hit middle levels you should be ok.

Pika...
2009-09-07, 05:00 AM
Multiclassing and/or PrCing allowed?

Kinda defeats the purpose doesn't it?

I'd say it'd make a great one-shot. Say a rogue wizard from the group's academy steals X items and runs, and you all are instructed to get it (and possibly him?) back?

kamikasei
2009-09-07, 05:06 AM
Kinda defeats the purpose doesn't it?

PrCing doesn't. Multiclassing, well, depends on whether the purpose requires pure wizards or just wizard-focused builds.

Grumman
2009-09-07, 05:09 AM
If it was me, I'd encourage the players to fill the normal archtypes just for variety, something like:

Fighter-wizard: Jade Phoenix Mage gish
Rogue-wizard: Spellthief / Wizard / Unseen Seer / Arcane Trickster
Druid-wizard: Arcane Heirophant
Wizard-wizard: Ultimate Magus

Fizban
2009-09-07, 07:14 AM
Last time I heard this idea there was either a proposed party or a game someone actually played that they listed their characters. I think it was an incantatrix blaster, some sort of generalist, a dedicated summoner, and another generalist.

Project_Mayhem
2009-09-07, 07:29 AM
Rogue-wizard: Spellthief / Wizard / Unseen Seer / Arcane Trickster

Theres a disgruntled Begiler who wants a word with you

kamikasei
2009-09-07, 07:33 AM
Theres a disgruntled Begiler who wants a word with you

Tell him to go find an all arcanist or all int-based game instead.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2009-09-07, 07:51 AM
It might be interesting for a few sessions; but eventually things would break down between the group because wizards have too much faith in the power of magic.

Oooh... here is something to make it interesting.

All Wizard campaign in a Low Magic setting. Nothing available beyond 4th level spells, and even then you don't get any time management gouda (celerity, anyone?) or shapechanging brie. Heh heh, cheese.

Even Gandalf was a Gish. Remember that.

Grumman
2009-09-07, 07:59 AM
Theres a disgruntled Begiler who wants a word with you
Sure, that works. Perhaps make the gish a Wu Jen and the Ultimate Magus a Wizard/Sublime Chord build, too.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-07, 08:09 AM
Even Gandalf was a Gish. Remember that.

No, Gandalf was an angel.

You know, d10 HD, 1/1 BaB, proficiency in all martial and simple weapons, all armour and shields, cleric spellcasting?

Kaiyanwang
2009-09-07, 08:19 AM
No, Gandalf was an angel.

You know, d10 HD, 1/1 BaB, proficiency in all martial and simple weapons, all armour and shields, cleric spellcasting?

This. Gandalf is like a stereotyped disguised good outsider.

Cyclocone
2009-09-07, 08:19 AM
No, Gandalf was an angel.

You know, d10 HD, 1/1 BaB, proficiency in all martial and simple weapons, all armour and shields, cleric spellcasting?

The books even specifically say Gandalf, Saruman and co. are supernatural beings disguised as humans and posing as wizards.

So yeah, a Solar would be much better at emulating Gandalf than a wizard would.

-Also, Saruman got himself Mind Raped. Sure sounds like a solar to me.:smallwink:

Tyndmyr
2009-09-07, 08:21 AM
I would love to participate in this.

Basically, I'd do straight wizzie until time for PrC classes. Seems like the best way to test the original idea.

IMO, start it at level 1. Four wizards, any normalish(read, non massive LA) race. Standard 32 pt buy, perhaps less. After all, the point is to show how powerful wizards can be.

Start with straight level appropriate encounters as per the DMG, and scale from there according to how easy the encounters are. Definitely try some days with plenty of encounters as well as some with few...get a good variety of tests, yknow?

But anyhow, yeah, I'd gladly play a straight wizard for this(or a wizzard, if preferred) if anyone else is up for actually trying it out. I hear people saying that it *could* work, but that's different than actually doing it.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-07, 08:22 AM
Oh, I too would love to participate if this ended up as a PbP game. Just so you know. :smallwink:

All-Wizard parties save cartloads of gold on spell research, at least. They can master each others' spellbooks.

J.Gellert
2009-09-07, 08:26 AM
It's great because you don't approach all fights equally. The "buff the fighter" tactic just works too well after a while, in a typical game.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-07, 08:27 AM
It instead becomes "buff the Transmuter" after he casts Tenser's Transformation.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-07, 09:08 AM
And let's not forget monster summoning and buffing. =) We could have an entire front line of summoned stuff.

deuxhero
2009-09-07, 09:22 AM
The spelltheif class is begging to be a major villan (The Dragon?) in this campaign. (speak of, spelltheif was in a web preview, anyone have the link?)

kamikasei
2009-09-07, 09:25 AM
The spelltheif class is begging to be a major villan (The Dragon?) in this campaign. (speak of, spelltheif was in a web preview, anyone have the link?)

First result (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20050107a).

quick_comment
2009-09-07, 09:31 AM
It instead becomes "buff the Transmuter" after he casts Tenser's Transformation.

No self respecting transmuter casts tenser's transformation :smallcool:

No, you buff the polymorphed transmuter.

Cespenar
2009-09-07, 09:38 AM
I faintly remember an old game that Gaurd Juris DM'd (IIRC) that had 4-5 wizards, all specialists (I was the Diviner :smallbiggrin:). Except one was a Spellthief, I guess. Anyway, to summarize it rather bluntly, our wizards were going to a re-union of an arcane academy but when we arrived the place, it was all blood and gore. Someone or something apparently had butchered everyone and left, and if we weren't a little late to attend, we probably were going to be a part of the massacre ourselves.

Then the game died of course.

dragonfan6490
2009-09-07, 09:53 AM
I was in an all wizard game once, pretty damn epic. We had an Evoker, Transmuter, Conjurer, Abjurer and Enchanter. Nothing stood in our way. That is, until the DM threw golems at us. Then, we died. It was a great one shot though.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2009-09-07, 10:35 AM
No, Gandalf was an angel.

You know, d10 HD, 1/1 BaB, proficiency in all martial and simple weapons, all armour and shields, cleric spellcasting?

Actually, I was thinking something a lot more simplistic. I know all that. :smallbiggrin:

Casts in DND terms low level spells (for the most part).
Beats the ever-loving crap out of stuff with his staff. not casting.
Has mounted combat ability. Also not spellcasting.

deuxhero
2009-09-07, 10:36 AM
Actually, I was thinking something a lot more simplistic. I know all that. :smallbiggrin:

Casts in DND terms low level spells (for the most part).
Beats the ever-loving crap out of stuff with his staff. not casting.
Has mounted combat ability. Also not spellcasting.

Omnicifecer?

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-07, 10:38 AM
Actually, I was thinking something a lot more simplistic. I know all that. :smallbiggrin:

Casts in DND terms low level spells (for the most part).
Beats the ever-loving crap out of stuff with his staff. not casting.
Has mounted combat ability. Also not spellcasting.

...So?

Angels can choose not to use their most powerful spells when posing as mortals, too. It helps with the charade.

AmberVael
2009-09-07, 10:47 AM
I've played in an all wizard game once.... or twice, actually.
First time I completely dominated as it was around 5th level, and I was playing an optimized blaster, and the other two were more typical save or die and battlefield control types.
And we were fighting undead.
I think the other casters were more focused on working against humanoids or something, because they didn't seem to get much done.

Second game, Tippy was in the party with Cindy.
'nuff said, I think. So it was more like party and Tippy.

I think a good Wizard only game would indeed have different wizards focusing on different things, mostly just to keep it so each person has something they excel and do best, rather than one person dominating more frequently.


As for the Gandalf discussion... I've always thought of Gandalf as a Factotum.

He doesn't cast many spells, but can draw on a huge range without needing a spellbook (just like a Factotum)- he's good at fighting, even though he is an old man (sign of his Int score aiding him all over the place), he seems to know and be able to do anything (lots of skill points...)

So yeah, I think that's probably the best class for him. I can see good outsider, which would fit with his background, but I think class wise, Factotum works best.

Yukitsu
2009-09-07, 10:54 AM
Been reading a bit of the wizard = Imaharginmawhateverthehellineedtobedoingatthetimes pell posting.

What would be interesting would be a wizard only campaign, maybe starting in an academy or somesuch. Anyone actually tried this and if so at what point does it become impossible to challenge the party (assuming you have skilled players).

Doing this now, basically, but taken a step further.

Party basically consists of three focused specialist necromancers, focused in an even smaller sub genre of necromancy. I'm playing a curse/fear caster, another raises undead, another focuses on save or dies. We've yet to find an encounter that actually challenges all three of us, up to and including CR 16s when we're level 9.

The save or die necromancer has stated that this is in a large part because I know how to play a debuffer well, and because I'm overly prepared.

We had one problematic battle due to SR 26 when we were level 7. The undead necromancer dealt with that, and the rest of us bought wands of true casting.

ericgrau
2009-09-07, 11:16 AM
I'd like to see this done with single classed wizards at a nice middle level, like level 10. And then please post the results.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-07, 11:18 AM
Are you offering to DM?

woodenbandman
2009-09-07, 12:17 PM
Here is how it goes down.

Level 1: Run around with 5 color sprays/day, x4. Crossbows still a decent option. Fear clerics, as their good will save will probably give you a bad day at some point.

Level 3: Glitterdust, Ray of Enfeeblement/Touch of idiocy... you're not worried.

Level 5+ win the game.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-07, 12:23 PM
Grease is good at low levels for dealing with the odd thing that color spray can't touch.

I always pack something that can deal with an immunity to mind effecting/etc, just because of undead.

Low levels will probably be the most difficult though. Seriously, just look at the duelists in the Arena? Wizards are not terribly common, but ToB melee types are. I popped in a reasonably optimized level 1 wizard (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=152153), just on principle to test it out, but I suspect some of the warforged types might be a bit of a pain to deal with, as will long ranged archery.

Anything that's vulnerable to color spray is doomed, though.

Quirinus_Obsidian
2009-09-07, 12:25 PM
...So?

Angels can choose not to use their most powerful spells when posing as mortals, too. It helps with the charade.

Exactly my point. One does not need high level spellcasting to do anything really. the only really high level magic anyone needs, NEEDS is True Resurrection.Time stop, wish, miracle, reality revision, all of those are unnecessary.
<~segueway~>
Another part of the point that I am trying to get across is that the magic system in DND is too powerful, a very large percentage of the spells and abilities out there for spellcasters are not even being used.

Thus; Gandalf never used what we would call epic spellcasting in DND. Heck, if we equate every spell that he cast in the books, then he would be what? The fact that he can do all of that and more, and chose not to use the abilities are two seperate things. He could have teleport'ed without error to Mordor, dropped the blasted ring in the lava, and then teleported out. In DND terms, that is 18 seconds of activity. He did not do that because the adventure, the companionship, the fight, all of what made the story great would never have been written. That is what DND is about. The story, the companionship, the fight.

What is the point of epic spellcasting? Is it like the mountain? Do you climb it because it's there? Do you prepare for epic spellcasting because you can?

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-07, 12:30 PM
Not every fantasy story is Lord of the Rings, and Lord of the Rings isn't every fantasy story.

Middle Earth is a very low-magic fantasy setting, honestly. The whole point of the story is that the world is becoming more mundane and less fantastic - it's a 'secret history' of the real world, set just before 'real' history started.

However, in other fantasy stories (they do exist!), wizards are far more powerful and regularly do things that are basically "epic spellcasting" in all but name.

The very premise of comparing Lord of the Rings with Dungeons and Dragons is flawed. Dungeons and Dragons is far, far more high-magic, and in all but very few exceptions, it's set in a world that's full of magic, has been for centuries, and is unlikely to stop being full of magic any time soon.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-07, 01:09 PM
Thus; Gandalf never used what we would call epic spellcasting in DND. Heck, if we equate every spell that he cast in the books, then he would be what? The fact that he can do all of that and more, and chose not to use the abilities are two seperate things. He could have teleport'ed without error to Mordor, dropped the blasted ring in the lava, and then teleported out. In DND terms, that is 18 seconds of activity.

Can't you drop an item as a free action? Even without quicken, we can get this down to 12 seconds.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-07, 01:55 PM
How I would build this party:
Focused Conjurer/Malconvoker.
Focused Transmuter.
Focused Illusionist/Unseen Seer or similar.
Focused Conjurer/Incantrix.
Summoned demons for meatshields, Orbs for direct damage, a bunch of persisted buffs on the entire party for survival, and the ability to pull out any spell necessary at any time.

king.com
2009-09-08, 03:23 AM
Well i've never GMed a DnD game and would hate to start with this kind of crazy setup. Was more thinking if it would get really boring or would be one of those forum posts someone will talk about years from now.....

jseah
2009-09-08, 04:52 AM
Can't you drop an item as a free action? Even without quicken, we can get this down to 12 seconds.

Teleport Object - 6 seconds

=)

At least if the ring fails it's save. (I'm assuming it's at least an intelligent item here)

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-08, 06:09 AM
Teleport Object - 6 seconds

=)

At least if the ring fails it's save. (I'm assuming it's at least an intelligent item here)

It's an artifact. It doesn't even need to be intelligent to have an obscene Will save.

Gorbash
2009-09-08, 06:20 AM
We had an Evoker, Transmuter, Conjurer, Abjurer and Enchanter. Nothing stood in our way. That is, until the DM threw golems at us. Then, we died.

How'd this happen? :smallconfused:

I mean, you could have just... Fly out of their reach, and since you have a Conjurer, blast them to oblivion with Orbs.

Omegonthesane
2009-09-08, 06:54 AM
How'd this happen? :smallconfused:

I mean, you could have just... Fly out of their reach, and since you have a Conjurer, blast them to oblivion with Orbs.

There's this amazing thing called a "ceiling". It stops people from flying up, up, and away.
There's this amazing thing called a "pair of walls". Together they stop anything being further apart than they are in a given direction.
Put two "pairs of walls" and a "ceiling" together, and suddenly your proposition is much less viable.

PId6
2009-09-08, 07:00 AM
Conjurer = Summons. Conjurer = Orbs. Conjurer = Grease. Conjurer = Pwn.

king.com
2009-09-08, 07:10 AM
There's this amazing thing called a "ceiling". It stops people from flying up, up, and away.
There's this amazing thing called a "pair of walls". Together they stop anything being further apart than they are in a given direction.
Put two "pairs of walls" and a "ceiling" together, and suddenly your proposition is much less viable.

I call BS on that. Thats what incorporeal is for :smallbiggrin:

Cyclocone
2009-09-08, 07:32 AM
There's this amazing thing called a "ceiling". It stops people from flying up, up, and away.
There's this amazing thing called a "pair of walls". Together they stop anything being further apart than they are in a given direction.
Put two "pairs of walls" and a "ceiling" together, and suddenly your proposition is much less viable.

Passwall, Etheral Jaunt, Phase Door, Disintegrate, Stone Shape.

And seriously, golems are among the least challenging opponents a wizard is likely to face, ever. Illusions and Grease pwns them, so does Web, Solid Fog, Sleet Storm, Reverse Gravity, Walls +Incendiary Cloud, and then there's summons and poly.
Other than their vaunted "magic immunity" golems have precisely nothing going for them.

I, too, would sincerely like to know what went wrong.:smallsmile:

Tyndmyr
2009-09-08, 07:43 AM
Well i've never GMed a DnD game and would hate to start with this kind of crazy setup. Was more thinking if it would get really boring or would be one of those forum posts someone will talk about years from now.....

I fully expect the latter. =)

GMing isn't actually that hard...though I reccomend against GMing more than, say, two campaigns at once. One, ideally. Easier to keep track of stuff. Just start with book standard encounter difficulties, and tweak until the party is properly challenged/in fear of their lives. As for actual plot...you can be wildly creative, or just rip off any number of existing plots.

dragonfan6490
2009-09-08, 10:37 AM
How'd this happen? :smallconfused:

I mean, you could have just... Fly out of their reach, and since you have a Conjurer, blast them to oblivion with Orbs.

It was a core-only game, so we didn't have Orbs, and as another poster said, it was in a room. There were lots of golems. Like, a dungeon full. Our employer apparently wanted us dead for stealing his fancy magic items. I can't imagine why. :smallbiggrin: And our employer also being a wizard, had taken the proper precautions to make sure we couldn't pull the fancy tricks such as going incoporeal, etheral jaunting, or the like.

P.S. It was a one-shot game, so we fully expected to die somehow.

stenver
2009-09-08, 11:46 AM
The way to make this kind of game interesting is easy -

Make the campaign based on cleansing any kind of magic in the world

That way the party of wizards are hunted anywhere they go and if entire world is against them, their not that unstoppable anymore.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-08, 11:59 AM
The way to make this kind of game interesting is easy -

Make the campaign based on cleansing any kind of magic in the world

That way the party of wizards are hunted anywhere they go and if entire world is against them, their not that unstoppable anymore.

You mean that the party gains lots of free XP as they're hunted by non casters? :smalltongue:

I'd love to play in that campaign, if someone got it going.

imperialspectre
2009-09-08, 12:05 PM
The way to make this kind of game interesting is easy -

Make the campaign based on cleansing any kind of magic in the world

That way the party of wizards are hunted anywhere they go and if entire world is against them, their not that unstoppable anymore.

So, no magic items? No spellcasting classes? For any of the enemies?

Well, this might be the first campaign in 3.5 history where fireball is actually a good spell for the PCs. Starts at a range that archers can't reliably hit. Means our team of magical terrorists is damn near invincible at 5th level, and completely untouchable at 9th.

AmberVael
2009-09-08, 12:09 PM
Well, this might be the first campaign in 3.5 history where fireball is actually a good spell for the PCs.

Fireball is always a good spell for the PCs. Because the ability to toast a large group of creatures on demand, while not always the most effective strategy, is hilarious.

Radar
2009-09-08, 12:10 PM
So, no magic items? No spellcasting classes? For any of the enemies? (...)
No convenient spell component pouches at stores? Not that much of a cakewalk anymore. :smallamused:

Eldariel
2009-09-08, 12:11 PM
No convenient spell component pouches at stores? Not that much of a cakewalk anymore. :smallamused:

...except if the Wizards are aware of this (and thus can make choices in accordance during their study), there's this feat called Eschew Materials...

Myrmex
2009-09-08, 12:19 PM
So, no magic items? No spellcasting classes? For any of the enemies?

Well, this might be the first campaign in 3.5 history where fireball is actually a good spell for the PCs. Starts at a range that archers can't reliably hit. Means our team of magical terrorists is damn near invincible at 5th level, and completely untouchable at 9th.

Just outlaw arcane magic, and have the antagonists be archivists, which are superior to wizards in virtually every way.

Lysander
2009-09-08, 12:19 PM
Ideas that will challenge and intrigue wizards:

Level 1 wizards studying at the same magic academy. Each session they learn one new spell, and are given a challenge that requires clever use of it.

Level 10 spellcasters offering magical support to a giant army en route to face an evil level 20 wizard and his minions

Wizards hunting for new spells, in a world where there are very few known spells. Lots of venturing into ancient magically protected dungeons to find low level spells that have been lost in time

Wizards on a guest to find and kill a powerful demon that slew their master. Even a high level wizard doesn't take searching through the lower planes lightly.

Wizards stranded on a plane with very few spell ingredients. They'd better conserve what they have with them as they search for a way home.

stenver
2009-09-08, 12:28 PM
Okei, so i will back my previous point up

Campaign based on banning all arcane magic (for whatever reason) and the "good side" uses power of the gods to help them (that means divine magic)

Now the wizards are in a world of trouble. And a special squad consisting of level 10 elite anti-wizard units would still put wizards in a world of trouble, even without magic weapons and divine magic. Seeing as some non core classes specialize in killing an arcane mage. The DM can make the world respond to wizard superiority even without divine magic. Like applying elite units of high level and number against them.

Eldariel
2009-09-08, 12:28 PM
Just outlaw arcane magic, and have the antagonists be archivists, which are superior to wizards in virtually every way.

I Abrupt Jaunt your statement and Celerity your objection.

Myrmex
2009-09-08, 12:30 PM
I Abrupt Jaunt your statement and Celerity your objection.

Archivists get Celerity. Abrupt Jaunt is ok. It still isn't going to save you from a CL 50 Dictum, though.

Eldariel
2009-09-08, 12:38 PM
Archivists get Celerity. Abrupt Jaunt is ok. It still isn't going to save you from a CL 50 Dictum, though.

Archivists need few of the more questionable spell sources to get Celerity though (specifically someone turning arcane spells to divine for them)! They also have similar trouble accessing Maw of Chaos and Wish (no Domain has 'em, nor do any of the divine classes). :smalltongue:

Oh, and Wizards directly qualify for Incantatrix! That has to count for something (yeah, yeah, Dweomerkeeper me this...)! Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil too! If I need to save the Wizard from Dictum...well, you know how high level optimized casters fight. Contingent This goes off followed by Contingent That, responded by Celerity, responded by the familiar's Celerity, etc. Classes stop mattering at that point.


Now, on lower levels though, Abrupt Jaunt is niiiice. Also, Wizards make better Summoners! Rapid Summoning + free Augment Summoning = nice Malconvoker!

Myrmex
2009-09-08, 12:41 PM
Archivists need few of the more questionable spell sources to get Celerity though (specifically someone turning arcane spells to divine for them)! They also have similar trouble accessing Maw of Chaos and Wish (no Domain has 'em, nor do any of the divine classes). :smalltongue:

Yeah, but since you're the DM, if your players question you, you CRUSH THEM. :smallbiggrin:


Oh, and Wizards directly qualify for Incantatrix! That has to count for something (yeah, yeah, Dweomerkeeper me this...)! Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil too! If I need to save the Wizard from Dictum...well, you know how high level optimized casters fight. Contingent This goes off followed by Contingent That, responded by Celerity, responded by the familiar's Celerity, etc.

Craft Contingent Spell is dumb. It is easily the worst feat ever printed in any book, ever.

But yeah, then it just comes down to whoever has the most cleverly worded contingent spells.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-08, 12:42 PM
Now the wizards are in a world of trouble. And a special squad consisting of level 10 elite anti-wizard units would still put wizards in a world of trouble, even without magic weapons and divine magic. Seeing as some non core classes specialize in killing an arcane mage. The DM can make the world respond to wizard superiority even without divine magic. Like applying elite units of high level and number against them.
Poorly, I might add.

Set
2009-09-08, 02:00 PM
Doing this now, basically, but taken a step further.

Party basically consists of three focused specialist necromancers, focused in an even smaller sub genre of necromancy. I'm playing a curse/fear caster, another raises undead, another focuses on save or dies. We've yet to find an encounter that actually challenges all three of us, up to and including CR 16s when we're level 9.

I want to play in this game! It sounds awesome.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-08, 02:59 PM
The only way to kill a well-prepared Wizard is with magic. Mainly copious dispels. A world with no magic (or hardly any magic) will be a Wizard party's playground.

Flickerdart
2009-09-08, 03:07 PM
The only way to kill a well-prepared Wizard is with magic. Mainly copious dispels. A world with no magic (or hardly any magic) will be a Wizard party's playground.
Until you start to really explore the implications of a non-magical world. No scrolls for sale (though the Wizard bunch can crib off each other), no Rods or Ioun Stones or other items that some shenanigans rely on, no stores stocking tongues of newt and black onyx...Eschew Materials might alleviate that a little bit, but when you have to mine the stone yourself if you want to get any Animating Dead done today, it makes the Wizard slightly less powerful (and more engaging to play: every spell's a quest!).

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-08, 03:08 PM
Sure, but if his enemies don't have any magic items either...

How do you kill an ethereal wizard without magic, exactly?

And if everyone takes Collegiate Wizard and no one picks the same spells... who needs scrolls?

Ozymandias9
2009-09-08, 03:15 PM
The way to make this kind of game interesting is easy -

Make the campaign based on cleansing any kind of magic in the world

That way the party of wizards are hunted anywhere they go and if entire world is against them, their not that unstoppable anymore.

Honestly if they're the only ones with magic, the ones hunting them become less dangerous, not more.

The way I would spin it is a war on arcane magic. That leaves divine magic in the hands of their hunters. Some relatively minor home-brewing would also be in order.

Perhaps...

Olympian Witch Hunt
Setting Breif:
Five years ago the Archmage Krieuessa began her war on the heavens in retaliation for Zeus's rape of her daughter. Having defeated her, Olympus has turned its anger upon all mortal arcane casters, becoming intent that no mortal should again become powerful enough to challenge the gods. Schools of Wizardry are shut down. Arcane casters, when found, must either take powerful oaths of fealty to Zeus that prevent the use of their powers or be hunted by the church. Many have faked their deaths and gone into hiding.

Cosmology:
Based primarily on the mythological Greek Pantheon, as it seems to fit rather well. Many Olympians should be flavored a bit more gritty than Deities and Demigods presents: i.e. the initial conflict has Zeus as both the god of Power and Rulership and the god of Rape (obviously, he also gets Sky, Air, and Thunder).

Structurally, this should be closed polytheism with a tendency towards Pantheon Polytheism. We don't want to limit entirely to the Olympians, but it is a closed system and the Olympians are clearly in charge with Zeus at the top.

There should be a monolithic Olympian church. The clerics thereof might generally have a single primary deity, but a cleric of Athena heals by praying to Hermes (or perhaps by praying to Athena to intercede with Hermes). Shrines to individual gods should exist, but the church structure should be monolithic to create a backing for this organized war against arcane magic.

Particularly relevant Deities: (Note especially Hecate)
Zeus, spun LN: God of Sky, Air, Lightning, Kings/Rulers, Honor, Truth , Fealty, Power, Patricide, and Rape. If we draw from myth, Zeus has dominion of all things under the open sky. Thus a house, building, cave, etc is outside his direct domain. Primary force behind the war: his anger and wrath should be unforgiving.

Athena: Normal LG spin. But as the goddess of strategic warfare, her clerics may very well be in charge of the crusade against arcane users. A reasonable position to the conflict is that she viewed Krieuessa's anger and injury as valid and just, but her war on Olympus as dangerous and reckless. She views the dangers of mortals with godlike powers as far more dangerous than the lusts of Zeus and other less noble gods. You could probably spin the turncoat wizards already mentioned, who took powerful oaths to prevent spellcasting, as her attempts at forcing a compromise. If you flavor Ares closer to the Greek Ares than the Roman Mars (see Ares below), she may be the primary patron of any Paladins hunting the wizards.

Ares: CE (if after the Greek Ares) or LN (if after the Roman Mars). Ares in the Greek Tradition is the god of War insofar as he is the god of violence, conflict, bloodlust and slaughter. He is the patron of the gore and blood of battle rather than a god of generals and strategy. Most statues and temples to him in Greece were added during the Roman period and more are more accurately presented as being dedicated to the Roman Mars, who the Romans identified as the same deity (a notable exception is in Sparta, where a statue of Ares in Chains symbolized that war and battle should never be allowed to leave the city. If you Ares with this spin, he should encourage the conflict purely for the sake of conflict and bloodlust.

The Roman Mars, in contrast, was a god of agriculture and war that was held in much higher esteem. He was a god of military duty and the patron of the citizen-soldier who sought only a peaceful life minding his estate but answered the call to war without question out of duty (in the model of, for example, the quasi-historical Cincinnatus). He is the patron of generals in conjunction with Athena, but he is also the patron of the solders at large. If you play him with this flavor, you might have him as the patron of paladins rather than Athena.

Hecate: CN or CG spin. Particularly important. Despite the fact that Deities and Demigods place an evil spin on her (partially justified by later myths), early accounts of Hecate are far kinder. She is initially given a measure of the honor and power of all the Olympians. She also dwells in the Underworld with Hades, which is out of Zeus's direct domain. Add this to the fact that she is a patron of magic and you have a way for the PC wizards to get limited divine aid (i.e. some limited magical healing before limited wish).
From a fluff point of view, I would say that she fought with Olympus against Krieuessa, but is opposing the war on arcane magic. She is highly honored among the gods, and her relationship with Hades (a very powerful god) grants her some protection, so she is in no personal danger. But Zeus has forbidden other gods from aiding her Clerics when they interfere with the war on arcane users. Moreover, he prevents her personal exercise of power within his direct domain (i.e. under the open sky) and expects other deities to do the same in theirs.
She still has a portion of the powers of every Olympian, so one of her clerics at one of her personal shrines (or perhaps somewhere else out of Zeus or another Olympian's sight, such as in a cave or home with the hearth extinguished to obscure the sight of Hestia) might be able to provide some succor to the party, though with perhaps a more limited spell list than a cleric might other wise be entitled to.

Hermes, Apollo, Prometheus: These gods can provide a different angle for divine healing if you like. Hermes is both the god of healing and the trickster god: you can play with a lot from that angle.
Apollo invented healing before handing the power over to Hermes in trade for purview over cattle and the domestication of livestock. He may still have some capacity with healing that he has hidden from the other Gods.
Prometheus game man their initial capacity for natural healing: you may be able to do something with that if you free him from his torturous prison.

New spell acquisition:Communicating with other wizards should be fairly difficult in the setting. Getting a new spell (except perhaps from another party member) should be somewhat difficult, even merely in terms of the new spells wizards are entitled to automatically as they advance. The independent research rules might become necessary for new spells even for spells from the base spell list. And as there are ex-wizard "turncoats," the Olympian Crusade probably knows what kind of purchases to look out for in terms of someone stocking for spell research.
An alternative might be to risk contact with a know npc wizard in hiding, which brings risks of detection for both parties.
Scrolls found with spells of higher level than the players can cast might become significantly more valuable. This is something they might save till they can learn the spell rather than simply using it to deal with a harder encounter.

Arcane Magic items and Spell Components:
Again, there are ex-wizard turncoats who know what is involved in crafts related to wizardry. The Olympian Crusade (someone give me a better name) knows this as well. Dealing in magical items like scrolls, wands, etc. with wizard spells should be difficult.

If you really want to go for internal consistency, you might toy with the presumption of spell component availability (and presumably ban or limit eschew materials). While I would generally avoid telling the players that they lack the guano to cast a fire ball on a regular basis, telling them when the decide to learn fireball that they will need to find a way to acquire bat guano and sulfur every month or so and that doing so will risk suspicion. I would generally decide make a non-specific endeavor to acquire the more obscure components sufficient rather than requiring separate endeavors to acquire the sulfur for fireballs and the phosphorus for fire shield. If they can't make the general attempt every month or two (or are unwilling because of the attention it would bring), they might need to ration spells with such obscure components and lean more on spells using more common or naturally available components. As I said, however, this is really getting into high internal consistency, and I would limit it to tables that value that aspect of a campaign.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-08, 03:31 PM
I'd play it. Starting level, allowable races/books?

Ozymandias9
2009-09-08, 03:50 PM
I'd play it. Starting level, allowable races/books?

Feel free to take it and expand or alter as you like. Honestly, this is just something I put tohether off the top of my head as I did laundry.

Given that this is essentially a low magic setting (for the PCs at least) I would recommend taking a cherry picking approach to the allowing non-core elements for them (essentially, more supplements taken as a whole means more homebrew work for each book added). But if you want to add a specific book or book in bulk, you just need to sit down and homebrew that book to fit the setting as well.

I would generally avoid a strong emphasis on races with a strong arcane affinity, but any player race can be made to work if the only concern is having the PC use that race.

As an example:
Standard elves would be far less amenable to such a war if you retained their favored class:wizard and the fluff that went with it. If you do include a race with a strong affinity to arcane magic you need to home-brew them to:
~Have a sparse local population. Either the Elven homeland is a great distance removed or you need to make their population sparse and fairly mobile-- closer perhaps to the more fey elves in german myth than Tolkien's highly civilized elves
~Be fairly insular and perhaps even xenophobic. If they are willing to give safe harbor to the party on a regular basis, it negates a great deal of the setting.
~Draw their patron deities from the closed Pantheon polytheism system setup already presented.
Grey elves would require slightly more extreme refluffing.

The easiest thing to do would be to limit it to a strictly human campaign, but that won't sit well with a lot of people.

The other easy option is to present all races as a part of a single highly multicultural society. The elves might be have more people cheesed about Zeus's war, but they live in the same society and are governed by the same church state and thus have no unique seat of power from which to oppose the Church's actions. If someone wants to play a specific race, this is probably the way to go, but it may require some significant re-fluffing of the race in question (and perhaps re-crunching if they are a LA race with an arcane SLA).

horseboy
2009-09-08, 04:15 PM
Last time I heard there was someone that did 4 warforged. They pounded through every encounter the DM threw at them. Wouldn't be surprised.

Ozymandias9
2009-09-08, 04:54 PM
Last time I heard there was someone that did 4 warforged. They pounded through every encounter the DM threw at them. Wouldn't be surprised.

If you find that, in practice, a CR 8 encounter is not challenging enough (or too challenging) for your level 8 party, try designing encounters with a slightly higher (or lower) CR. Not every group plays with the same efficiency or creativity, and you should be tailoring the campaign to the table.

Xaklin_Magewrit
2009-09-08, 06:35 PM
No I got all grey elves generalist wizard all take Collegeiate Wizard feat and copy each other spell book DM = rage quit.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-08, 07:41 PM
Well, it's a batch of grey elves that went to wizardry college together.

Strong sure, but they all have the same strengths and weaknesses.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-08, 10:05 PM
Well, it's a batch of grey elves that went to wizardry college together.

Strong sure, but they all have the same strengths and weaknesses.What are these weaknesses of which you speak?

Tyndmyr
2009-09-08, 10:35 PM
-con, mainly.

That, and no diversity in strengths. They're a good race, mind, but it could be worse. Could be warforged scout, anthropromorphic bat, grey elf, and lesser tiefling. The first is a bit of an odd wizard choice, but the point is, the above party would unlikely to all be vulnerable to the same thing.

Yukitsu
2009-09-08, 10:42 PM
My grey elves seem to always get sexually molested by drow priestesses. :smallfrown:

Kylarra
2009-09-08, 10:49 PM
My grey elves seem to always get sexually molested by drow priestesses. :smallfrown:Clearly you need either higher or lower CHA.

Eldariel
2009-09-08, 10:53 PM
Clearly you need either higher or lower CHA.

...AD&D-style Str as Cha with Percentile would come in handy here. 18/01; use 18 when you want to tell someone not to molest you and 01 when you want someone to miss you and molest your friend instead. :smalltongue:

king.com
2009-09-08, 11:40 PM
I actually really like the idea of giving all the wizards a new spell and having a trial to use it each time. What would make it more interesting is whoever wins each test gets to keep the spell?

Yukitsu
2009-09-08, 11:46 PM
Clearly you need either higher or lower CHA.

I play a lot of planar binding conjurers, or tricky illusionists, so I need my charisma pumped up. It's often my wizard's second highest stat.

Skorj
2009-09-09, 12:44 AM
You know, this sounds like a blast to DM as a PbP, and I have small amounts of free time scattered throughout the day, and lots of time on weekends. Is anyone else taking this up? :smallamused:

EDIT:

OK, unless someone is already in motion to start this game, I want to do it - assuming some player interest? I really need a veteran of both 3.5 and PbP to help me with the logistics, however. From what I can tell I should set up an OOC thread for recruiting?

The specific game I'm thinking of is not going to be specially focused on the world killing wizards, or low-magic, or populated entriely by golems, or set in a continent-wide AMF, or any such loophole. This needs to be about full frontal cheese, or what's the point. However, I have no books! So I'm limited to the SRD or other stuff legally online, at least at first (I'd be happy to buy needed books if this really gets going, however, so I'm open to PrCs from the non-setting books, plus probably underdark). Does that restrict the cheese too much?

Given the somewhat limited source material, I'd broaden the premise a bit to allow any build that gave 9th level arcane spells at level 20. Game would start fairly low level, but with artifically fast advancement (as much as anything is fast in PbP). Given the obvious party power, the game will be brutal - Gygaxian D&D brutal, given the amount of save-or-die that will eventually be happening - but with a minimal death penalty.

Cheese-wise, I want to allow anything that's merely encounter breaking, blocking only the game-breaking stuff like infinite loops and infinite casting. But everything except arcane magic will be on a very short leash, mostly because we're going for a specific flavor of cheese here.

If there's some interest shown in this thread (and someone's willing to coach me on the play-by-post aspects) I'll flesh this out to a full campaign start description.

BRING THE CHEESE!

Rainbownaga
2009-09-09, 02:45 AM
Until you start to really explore the implications of a non-magical world. No scrolls for sale (though the Wizard bunch can crib off each other), no Rods or Ioun Stones or other items that some shenanigans rely on, no stores stocking tongues of newt and black onyx...Eschew Materials might alleviate that a little bit, but when you have to mine the stone yourself if you want to get any Animating Dead done today, it makes the Wizard slightly less powerful (and more engaging to play: every spell's a quest!).

In a non-magic world, how would crafting work? It is assumed you can find the components easily in the market (hence the 1000's of gold worth of components). Low magic may make crafting scrolls much harder which would prevent the wizard's "oh, i just happen to have that spell here" strategies.

olentu
2009-09-09, 02:51 AM
You know, this sounds like a blast to DM as a PbP, and I have small amounts of free time scattered throughout the day, and lots of time on weekends. Is anyone else taking this up? :smallamused:

EDIT:

OK, unless someone is already in motion to start this game, I want to do it - assuming some player interest? I really need a veteran of both 3.5 and PbP to help me with the logistics, however. From what I can tell I should set up an OOC thread for recruiting?

The specific game I'm thinking of is not going to be specially focused on the world killing wizards, or low-magic, or populated entriely by golems, or set in a continent-wide AMF, or any such loophole. This needs to be about full frontal cheese, or what's the point. However, I have no books! So I'm limited to the SRD or other stuff legally online, at least at first (I'd be happy to buy needed books if this really gets going, however, so I'm open to PrCs from the non-setting books, plus probably underdark). Does that restrict the cheese too much?

Given the somewhat limited source material, I'd broaden the premise a bit to allow any build that gave 9th level arcane spells at level 20. Game would start fairly low level, but with artifically fast advancement (as much as anything is fast in PbP). Given the obvious party power, the game will be brutal - Gygaxian D&D brutal, given the amount of save-or-die that will eventually be happening - but with a minimal death penalty.

Cheese-wise, I want to allow anything that's merely encounter breaking, blocking only the game-breaking stuff like infinite loops and infinite casting. But everything except arcane magic will be on a very short leash, mostly because we're going for a specific flavor of cheese here.

If there's some interest shown in this thread (and someone's willing to coach me on the play-by-post aspects) I'll flesh this out to a full campaign start description.

BRING THE CHEESE!

I would play in this though my cheese is a bit rusty from lack of use it looks fun. Though I am wondering how I got rusty cheese but probably would not like it if I found out.

Skorj
2009-09-09, 03:14 AM
I would play in this though my cheese is a bit rusty from lack of use it looks fun.

That's actually my primary motivation to start at low level - to give players a chance to get into the spirit of things and shake off the rust (and share ideas) before too much in the way of build and items has been committed. There will be plenty of time to research/plot ways to be overpowered once the game begins, even at the fastest rate I can throw XP at a party in PbP.

Also, it gives me time to sharpen my cheesegrater. :smallbiggrin:

PId6
2009-09-09, 03:15 AM
You know, this sounds like a blast to DM as a PbP, and I have small amounts of free time scattered throughout the day, and lots of time on weekends. Is anyone else taking this up? :smallamused:

EDIT:

OK, unless someone is already in motion to start this game, I want to do it - assuming some player interest? I really need a veteran of both 3.5 and PbP to help me with the logistics, however. From what I can tell I should set up an OOC thread for recruiting?

The specific game I'm thinking of is not going to be specially focused on the world killing wizards, or low-magic, or populated entriely by golems, or set in a continent-wide AMF, or any such loophole. This needs to be about full frontal cheese, or what's the point. However, I have no books! So I'm limited to the SRD or other stuff legally online, at least at first (I'd be happy to buy needed books if this really gets going, however, so I'm open to PrCs from the non-setting books, plus probably underdark). Does that restrict the cheese too much?

Given the somewhat limited source material, I'd broaden the premise a bit to allow any build that gave 9th level arcane spells at level 20. Game would start fairly low level, but with artifically fast advancement (as much as anything is fast in PbP). Given the obvious party power, the game will be brutal - Gygaxian D&D brutal, given the amount of save-or-die that will eventually be happening - but with a minimal death penalty.

Cheese-wise, I want to allow anything that's merely encounter breaking, blocking only the game-breaking stuff like infinite loops and infinite casting. But everything except arcane magic will be on a very short leash, mostly because we're going for a specific flavor of cheese here.

If there's some interest shown in this thread (and someone's willing to coach me on the play-by-post aspects) I'll flesh this out to a full campaign start description.

BRING THE CHEESE!
Sounds damn fun, actually. Glad it's not restricted to wizard only; I'd love to apply as a sorcerer (kobold lore-drake if possible :smallamused:).

Crystal Keep (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php) has a lot of things from supplements you can check, though the info can be a bit limited sometimes, especially with PrCs and such. Just core would definitely limit a large amount of cheese, or at least variety thereof. There's plenty of cheese in core, but it's of the type that everybody's going to end up with the same/similar cheese, which might defeat the point of some of this.

I'd suggest having someone else with more access check everything submitted. That, or just have players PM you info with things you don't have access to and open up sheet access to everyone. I would think that with the amount of optimizers you're bound to attract, "peer review" would be more than enough to guarantee fair play.

Gnorman
2009-09-09, 03:41 AM
Hell, I'd always be down to contribute a malconvoker.

Or perhaps a shadowcraft mage with a sideline in skillmonkeying.

Or, you know, I've never done Unseen Seer before.

Skorj
2009-09-09, 03:50 AM
Sounds damn fun, actually. Glad it's not restricted to wizard only; I'd love to apply as a sorcerer (kobold lore-drake if possible :smallamused:).

The problem with true wizard-only is you can so easily end up with no party face, and everyone dumping CHA. I hope for "mostly wizard", however.



Crystal Keep (http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/index.php) has a lot of things from supplements you can check, though the info can be a bit limited sometimes, especially with PrCs and such. Just core would definitely limit a large amount of cheese, or at least variety thereof. There's plenty of cheese in core, but it's of the type that everybody's going to end up with the same/similar cheese, which might defeat the point of some of this.

I'd suggest having someone else with more access check everything submitted. That, or just have players PM you info with things you don't have access to and open up sheet access to everyone. I would think that with the amount of optimizers you're bound to attract, "peer review" would be more than enough to guarantee fair play.

Yeah, I've used the Crystal Keep stuff before, and in general would be open to anything that I can get enough details on to run. I planned to count on peer review, but also on pre-clearing most cheese.

I need to think about "monsterous" races. I think this will be more fun if the focus is on creative use of spells, rather than abuse of the character creation system. Templates and paragons and the like just seem like the wrong direction to take this, but I don't want to reject non-abusive creative character concepts out of hand, and most races wouldn't actually matter much at the power level the party will reach.

Gnorman
2009-09-09, 03:56 AM
The problem with true wizard-only is you can so easily end up with no party face, and everyone dumping CHA. I hope for "mostly wizard", however.

Sir, I accept your challenge. I shall now endeavor to add a Social Proficiency Enchanter into the mix.

olentu
2009-09-09, 04:09 AM
I suppose if it is not straight wiz 20 just wiz based an unseen seer gets the face skills.

B9anders
2009-09-09, 04:12 AM
I played in an all-wizards campaign in Dragonlance once, from 6th to 14 lvl iirc. Variety came in the shape of wziards of all three robes having to work together and of course all of us specialising in different fields.

You'll definitely need your blasters without meatshields plowing the way for you, but it was fun to see just how varied an array of solutions to problems we could deal with.

Securing a stronghold for ourselves under the sea, cloud battles against a squadron of dragons. Good times.

Eldariel
2009-09-09, 04:14 AM
You'll definitely need your blasters without meatshields plowing the way for you, but it was fun to see just how varied an array of solutions to problems we could deal with.

A summoner works better and a bit later on, Planar Bindings solve this. Although a game where the Wizards completely ignore killing capability, disable stuff and plop at it with Longbows could be amusing if impractical. Though having access to some damage won't kill the party either.

olentu
2009-09-09, 04:15 AM
I played in an all-wizards campaign in Dragonlance once, from 6th to 14 lvl iirc. Variety came in the shape of wziards of all three robes having to work together and of course all of us specialising in different fields.

You'll definitely need your blasters without meatshields plowing the way for you, but it was fun to see just how varied an array of solutions to problems we could deal with.

Securing a stronghold for ourselves under the sea, cloud battles against a squadron of dragons. Good times.

Someone could do a summoner if we need things to stab things with pointy things.

Skorj
2009-09-09, 04:20 AM
OK, so if someone will explain to me how to get this started on the PbP boards? I think I make a recruiting thread first (where we can discuss character creation details and such), then later an OOC thread and IC threads as the game begins?

I'm sure this forum is the wrong place ...

Eldariel
2009-09-09, 04:22 AM
Someone could do a summoner if we need things to stab things with pointy things.

Yeah, I'd definitely rather have a Malconvoker than a b00m b00m blaster. Though with 3 Incantatrixes, everyone could just blast accidentially and it wouldn't really matter. But ya, if not being ridiculous, and focusing, a Conjurer (Malconvoker)/Diviner (Unseen Seer)/Illusionist (Shadowcraft Mage) seems like a good bunch with completely different foci. Toss in an Abjurer (IotSV) to make life hell for opposing spellcasters (while still being a Wizard) if you have an extra slot.


OK, so if someone will explain to me how to get this started on the PbP boards? I think I make a recruiting thread first (where we can discuss character creation details and such), then later an OOC thread and IC threads as the game begins?

I'm sure this forum is the wrong place ...

Yes.

Gnorman
2009-09-09, 04:38 AM
Eh, I consider it a righteous challenge to have an all-wizard party without the Incantatrix.

Way I see it, you'd need:

The Malconvoker for versatility and walls of HP, also binds and general conjuration. Fog spells and cloud spells, vast battlefield control. My favorite archetype.

A Shadowcraft Mage for stealth/skills and a sideline in divination, also can be a capable blaster with figments. Illusionary fireballs burn just as badly if you believe.

A social Enchanter with a Mindbender dip to act as the party face and throw down buffs/debuffs. They keep the party members prepped and at the top of their game while denying the enemy those same benefits - while hopefully sowing seeds of confusion and betrayal.

And a crazy Necromancer to throw even more versatility in there, as well as more meaty minions to draw enemy fire.

Nobody bans Conjuration or Transmutation, of course. As many try to keep Illusion and Abjuration as possible. Everybody's a Focused Specialist. The Conjurer bans Illusion, Evocation, and Necromancy. The Shadowcraft Mage bans Evocation, Abjuration, and Enchantment. The Enchanter bans Evocation, Necromancy, and Illusion. The Necromancer bans Evocation, Enchantment, and Abjuration. The Enchanter could easily be switched to a Transmuter while still retaining the same basic role.

To use Complete Mage's archetypes: A Summoner/Strategist, a Blaster/Spy, a Controller/Booster and a Necromaster. Plenty of roles fulfilled.

Between the hosts of familiars, summons, binds, and undead, it's not so much a party as it is a damned army.

Ideally, they'd all be warforged so that they could heal themselves and not need to sleep. But hey, healing's cheap.

PId6
2009-09-09, 04:48 AM
I need to think about "monsterous" races. I think this will be more fun if the focus is on creative use of spells, rather than abuse of the character creation system. Templates and paragons and the like just seem like the wrong direction to take this, but I don't want to reject non-abusive creative character concepts out of hand, and most races wouldn't actually matter much at the power level the party will reach.
Sorcerers are as close to wizards as you can get. And Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) is a common sorcerer method to get equal casting to a wizard. Loredrake goes a bit further, granting another +2 to spellcasting, but you can't say sorcerers don't need it in a party of snobbish wizards. The whole point is to advance spellcasting. Having a sorcerer opens up lots of Wings of Cover/Flurry and Arcane Spellsurge/Fusion cheese.

And besides, it's kobolds! :smallbiggrin:

olentu
2009-09-09, 04:53 AM
Sorcerers are as close to wizards as you can get. And Greater Draconic Rite of Passage (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a) is a common sorcerer method to get equal casting to a wizard. Loredrake goes a bit further, granting another +2 to spellcasting, but you can't say sorcerers don't need it in a party of snobbish wizards. The whole point is to advance spellcasting. Having a sorcerer opens up lots of Wings of Cover/Flurry and Arcane Spellsurge/Fusion cheese.

And besides, it's kobolds! :smallbiggrin:

Well allowing that might lead to the all wizard game being mostly kobold sorcerers.

PId6
2009-09-09, 04:55 AM
Well allowing that might lead to the all wizard game being mostly kobold sorcerers.
What's wrong with that? All hail kobolds! The scalykind shall conquer all! :smallbiggrin:

Though honestly, I doubt it. Wizards still have much higher potential for breakage overall, with their much easier PrC access and vast repertoire of spells. (Well, as long as we're not allowing kobold epic feats... :smalltongue:)

olentu
2009-09-09, 05:07 AM
What's wrong with that? All hail kobolds! The scalykind shall conquer all! :smallbiggrin:

Though honestly, I doubt it. Wizards still have much higher potential for breakage overall, with their much easier PrC access and vast repertoire of spells. (Well, as long as we're not allowing kobold epic feats... :smalltongue:)

Well without knowing the limitations who knows how valuable kobold sorcerers would be.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-09, 05:29 AM
So... what, is this "core only", or "PM me everything that isn't core"?

Because this game sounds like fun but I hate "core only". :(

Edit: Also, if it's not core-only, I wanna play a Shadowcraft Mage. Gnomes are fun. >.>

Skorj
2009-09-09, 05:40 AM
So... what, is this "core only", or "PM me everything that isn't core"?

Because this game sounds like fun but I hate "core only". :(

Edit: Also, if it's not core-only, I wanna play a Shadowcraft Mage. Gnomes are fun. >.>

I'll make a detailed recruiting post soon in the right forum in the next day or so. Not "core only" for races/classes, but I'm bookless here and I need somehting to go on. If you don't need the non-core class day 1 (ie., PrCs), I can shop for books that might be necessary.

OTOH, I'm a bit skeptical of non-core spells. Really, do you need more than core to break things? But I might be talked into non-core blaster stuff, if someone really wants to go that route.

olentu
2009-09-09, 06:11 AM
I'll make a detailed recruiting post soon in the right forum in the next day or so. Not "core only" for races/classes, but I'm bookless here and I need somehting to go on. If you don't need the non-core class day 1 (ie., PrCs), I can shop for books that might be necessary.

OTOH, I'm a bit skeptical of non-core spells. Really, do you need more than core to break things? But I might be talked into non-core blaster stuff, if someone really wants to go that route.

Well then save me a spot. I would be initially considering a malconvoker but I think Gnorman already expressed interest.

And I would say that one does not need to leave core to break the game given that there are many broken spells in core but then again most of the non core spells are not really broken at all.

PId6
2009-09-09, 06:19 AM
*cough*Celerity*cough*

Though besides that, it's only outside core that sorcerers get any love. All sorcerer-only spells are outside core though, so unless you'd rather just change back to wizard only, some out-of-core spells might need to be allowed.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-09, 06:23 AM
Nothing outside of core is particularly broken when compared to some of the whoppers inside core.

Except Celerity. My God that thing is broken. And awesome.

Edit: Also, if I were playing, there are several non-core things I would need day one. Focused specialist. Gnome illusionist racial level. Collegiate Wizard (because it's awesome). :smallwink:

olentu
2009-09-09, 06:38 AM
Well I did say most rather then all. And I think he said non core races and classes would be alright.

Gnorman
2009-09-09, 06:39 AM
Yesss...

Rapid Summoning. Enhanced Summoning. Focused Specialist. As many Malconvoker summons as I can peruse Monster Manuals for... Fiendish Codices... Dragon Magazine... mwahhahaha. Um. Don't mind me. Remember, I've vetted almost every single evil outsider printed for my fiend-summoning guide.

But seriously, if you're interested in playing a Malconvoker, go for it. I'm already playing one in a different game. They just happen to be my favorite PrC ever.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-09, 06:46 AM
Am I correct in thinking that Illusion Mastery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#illusionMastery) is pretty dang awesome?

The other specialist varients are eh, but this one is nice.

olentu
2009-09-09, 06:47 AM
Yesss...

Rapid Summoning. Enhanced Summoning. Focused Specialist. As many Malconvoker summons as I can peruse Monster Manuals for... Fiendish Codices... Dragon Magazine... mwahhahaha. Um. Don't mind me. Remember, I've vetted almost every single evil outsider printed for my fiend-summoning guide.

But seriously, if you're interested in playing a Malconvoker, go for it. I'm already playing one in a different game. They just happen to be my favorite PrC ever.

I am interested as I have never got around to playing one and they do look like fun. So I shall take you up on your offer barring unforeseen circumstances.

Edit: Well giving up the bonus spells per day could hurt.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-09, 06:48 AM
But Focused Specialist gives it back, anyway.

PId6
2009-09-09, 06:49 AM
Am I correct in thinking that Illusion Mastery (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/specialistWizardVariants.htm#illusionMastery) is pretty dang awesome?

The other specialist varients are eh, but this one is nice.
Lose a spell slot? Eh, I'd rather just take Spell Mastery if I really wanted it that much. It's not like Killer Gnomes need anything other than Silent Image anyway...

olentu
2009-09-09, 06:51 AM
Lose a spell slot? Eh, I'd rather just take Spell Mastery if I really wanted it that much. It's not like Killer Gnomes need anything other than Silent Image anyway...

And I one signature spells silent image in any case.

Killer Angel
2009-09-09, 06:51 AM
Nothing outside of core is particularly broken when compared to some of the whoppers inside core.
Except Celerity.


and metamagic reducers.
and craft contingent spell.

and (maybe) orb spells, which, if not broken, are overpowered.

and (certainly) some other stuff i don't remember now.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-09, 06:52 AM
Eh, I guess. Collegiate Wizard takes care of the extra spells, too.

I still think it's nice, but Shadowcraft Mage doesn't really need it, no.

olentu
2009-09-09, 06:53 AM
and metamagic reducers.
and craft contingent spell.

and (maybe) orb spells, which, if not broken, are overpowered.

and (certainly) some other stuff i don't remember now.

Well the orb spells are the only spells that you have listed and I think that was what the subject was at the time. I mean the are those skiraughts or whatever they are called and I think we all would know about them.

PId6
2009-09-09, 06:53 AM
and metamagic reducers.
and craft contingent spell.

and (maybe) orb spells, which, if not broken, are overpowered.

and (certainly) some other stuff i don't remember now.
I think in context, that was referring to spells only.

And orbs aren't broken; they're just very very good.

Killer Angel
2009-09-09, 07:00 AM
I think in context, that was referring to spells only.


Ah, yes, i noted now Skorj's post. My bad.
Then yes, the spells in Core are generally more broken than outside.

Stabby
2009-09-09, 07:08 AM
I've always wanted to play a necromancer. Hmm... to the bookcave!

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-09, 07:13 AM
So, I'm thinking Focused Illusionist 5/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Master Specialist 10. I'll take the first level gnome illusionist racial substitution level. Not entirely sure about the fifth - free extended illusions are great, but I'm not sure about losing the bonus feat...

Any thoughts? Am I jumping the gun a little? >.>

PId6
2009-09-09, 07:19 AM
Shadowcrafter? Also, why not start taking Master Specialist at 4?

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-09, 07:21 AM
Shadowcrafter?

You can take Master Specialist at level 4? ... Wow. So you can. That's pretty weird compared to... every other PrC ever.

PId6
2009-09-09, 07:25 AM
Bah, meant Shadow Adept, from FRCS.

And yeah, that's why you can almost always fit 2 levels of Master Specialist on any build.

Edit: Okay, any specialist wizard build at least.

Edit2: Actually, I meant Shadow Adept and Shadowcrafter. Ugh. Mornings. Underdark, I think.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-09, 07:28 AM
Don't have any Forgotten Realms books. Summarise please?

PId6
2009-09-09, 07:30 AM
IIRC Shadowcrafter has +DCs and +quasireality. Shadow Adept just has bonus feats or something like that. Former is quite nice while latter is decent for dip.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-09, 07:32 AM
Hm. Well, I do like Master Specialist 10's Illusionist capstone quite a bit... free Silent, Stilled and material-less illusion spells are nice.

Would two levels of Shadowcrafter be too little?

Stabby
2009-09-09, 09:45 AM
Out of curiosity, what level would this theoritically be starting at? Just curious and all.

Also, looking at Wizard 3(Focused Specialist: Necromancy)/Master Specialist 10/Dunno yet ?

Any suggestions?

PId6
2009-09-09, 10:16 AM
Hm. Well, I do like Master Specialist 10's Illusionist capstone quite a bit... free Silent, Stilled and material-less illusion spells are nice.

Would two levels of Shadowcrafter be too little?
I have no idea; away from books right now. But if you've 100% quasireality anyway and you don't care for punishing True Seers, it probably doesn't matter that much.


Out of curiosity, what level would this theoritically be starting at? Just curious and all.

Also, looking at Wizard 3(Focused Specialist: Necromancy)/Master Specialist 10/Dunno yet ?

Any suggestions?
1, but with fast leveling.

No experience with necromancers, but... Pale Master maybe?

Eldariel
2009-09-09, 11:11 AM
Hm. Well, I do like Master Specialist 10's Illusionist capstone quite a bit... free Silent, Stilled and material-less illusion spells are nice.

Would two levels of Shadowcrafter be too little?

Shadowcrafter you really want 7-8 levels of to make the most of it. Also, it's worth noting that Master Specialist level 10 abilities are only 3/day; Master Illusionist is quite weak. Also, I personally prefer Wizard 5 for Illusionist to get Spontaneous Divination.

But yeah, I'd go Wizard 5/Shadow Adept 1/Shadowcrafter X/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Shadowcrafter ->

Tyndmyr
2009-09-09, 11:11 AM
I'd probably just take a gnome, specializing in whatever nobody else does. Whisper gnome, if Im feeling cheesy.

We've got a necro, they should be able to handle the tanking, a malconvoker for random cheddar and defence...what else?

Summoner or blaster seems interesting. Obviously, not top tier power, but I haven't played one in a bit.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-09, 11:58 AM
Well that teaches me to not read class descriptions thoroughly.

...I'll work something out, I'm sure.

Skorj
2009-09-09, 12:00 PM
Some notes before I get the recruiting thread started.

Starting level will be low: ECL 4, max LA +2, humanoid (with no racial HD, if that's not redundant) . But we won't use the normal XP rules: XP will come in level-sized chunks, and fairly frequently. This is partly to give the party a chance to grow as a unit, giving players less familiar with optimization a chance to consult with others, and partly because surviving the fragile lower levels is part of the wizard experience.

Short background/world summary: characters are all recent graduates from an arcane academy (so the school won't really feature in the game much), all know and trust one another well, and the world theme is Roman empire with moderate magic (high level casters are rare, and don't rule the world).

I didn't see anything above class/race wise that I'd object to on principle, BTW (but don't take that note as official approval of anything :smallwink:), and I like racial substitution level rules. I'm worried about contingent spells in a PbP setting - let me think about that. Are there (legal) descriptions of the orb spells online anywhere? Of the stuff in CArc I'm most OK with those (and I prefer overpowered blaster to summoner just in terms of time to resolve melee rounds, though I suspect we'll get both). I'll get the recruiting thread started today (PST) so we can move character creation discussion there.

EDIT: Someone should maybe think about finding a way to have a healing spell or two. Just sayin'. Also, I'm hoping someone will be looking for bragging rights and RP opportunity, and bring an INT penalty race with a level in barbarian or some such, but only if your CharOp skills are really up to making that work.

Eldariel
2009-09-09, 12:01 PM
I could be interested in playing anything. Probably Diviner though since it seems they aren't that liked here and I just so happen to love Diviners. Though I'd probably be Rogue 1/ 'cause those extra skillpoints really help.

Yukitsu
2009-09-09, 12:07 PM
Oh blast, did I ever go to sleep at the wrong time. :smallsigh:

Mando Knight
2009-09-09, 12:40 PM
(Thread's moved on way past this, but it's kinda relevant... maybe...)

Casts in DND terms low level spells (for the most part).

Doesn't need to. The next most powerful character in the Fellowship is Aragorn, who at his most magical possible build is a Ranger 3/Paladin 3, with Legolas right behind him as a Ranger 3/Fighter X (likely 0-2) (Gimli as a possible Fighter 3-5...). A Solar (Gandalf) who doesn't want to attract the sole attention of a rival Solar/Pit Fiend (Sauron) and while traveling with a low-level party (the Fellowship) won't use anything more awesome than what is normal for the characters around him use. Note that he also hides his ring of power and outright refuses to take any of the other rings.

Stabby
2009-09-09, 12:43 PM
I'm guessing point-buy. 28 or 32? rolling? Who knows.

Almost done with my strongheart halfling Necro.

PId6
2009-09-09, 01:09 PM
I'm very tempted to go Ultimate Magus, focusing on sorcerer side. With greater rite and loredrake, I can get full sorcerer casting with a final CL 24 before boosts. That makes for some nice persisting/buffing. However, I kinda wanna go blaster with sorcerer instead, which obviously screams Incantatrix. Decisions decisions decisions...

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-09, 01:15 PM
So... what are the prerequisites for Shadowcrafter? I'm going to get the book it's in next week-ish, but I need to know now so I don't totally screw myself over..

PId6
2009-09-09, 01:18 PM
So... what are the prerequisites for Shadowcrafter? I'm going to get the book it's in next week-ish, but I need to know now so I don't totally screw myself over..
Greater/Spell Focus (Illusion), 4 ranks in Disguise, able to cast 3rd or higher Illusion (Shadow).

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-09, 01:45 PM
Oh. Simple enough then. I can get Greater Spell Focus from the third level of Master Specialist, and the other prereqs are easy...

PId6
2009-09-09, 01:53 PM
Hmm, um, how's Dragon Magazine? :smalltongue:

*cough*Easy Metamagic*cough* Don't shoot me!

olentu
2009-09-09, 02:53 PM
Some notes before I get the recruiting thread started.

Starting level will be low: ECL 4, max LA +2, humanoid (with no racial HD, if that's not redundant) . But we won't use the normal XP rules: XP will come in level-sized chunks, and fairly frequently. This is partly to give the party a chance to grow as a unit, giving players less familiar with optimization a chance to consult with others, and partly because surviving the fragile lower levels is part of the wizard experience.

Short background/world summary: characters are all recent graduates from an arcane academy (so the school won't really feature in the game much), all know and trust one another well, and the world theme is Roman empire with moderate magic (high level casters are rare, and don't rule the world).

I didn't see anything above class/race wise that I'd object to on principle, BTW (but don't take that note as official approval of anything :smallwink:), and I like racial substitution level rules. I'm worried about contingent spells in a PbP setting - let me think about that. Are there (legal) descriptions of the orb spells online anywhere? Of the stuff in CArc I'm most OK with those (and I prefer overpowered blaster to summoner just in terms of time to resolve melee rounds, though I suspect we'll get both). I'll get the recruiting thread started today (PST) so we can move character creation discussion there.

EDIT: Someone should maybe think about finding a way to have a healing spell or two. Just sayin'. Also, I'm hoping someone will be looking for bragging rights and RP opportunity, and bring an INT penalty race with a level in barbarian or some such, but only if your CharOp skills are really up to making that work.

While the latest version of the orbs are in the spell compendium they are also in complete arcane.

So how much cheese can come from race, limits on campaign specific material, how specifically can I choose random traits, and is level adjustment buyoff being used as depending on those answers I might consider the possibility of an extra 9 levels of sorcerer casting on a kobold to be valuable enough to change builds. Even the extra 3 might be enough.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-09, 02:56 PM
Healing is optional. It might be rough for the first couple levels, but frankly, wizards shouldn't need much healing anyhow. Once there's a bit of money about to deal with healing via itemization, the problems solved.

Edit: In progress, but here's my char so far, assuming 32pt buy. http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=152669

Gnorman
2009-09-09, 03:29 PM
Int penalty, eh? Perhaps... an orc...?

Tyndmyr
2009-09-09, 03:30 PM
Someones going to play a wizard with an int penalty? Why? What's the point of a wizard without casting?

Gnorman
2009-09-09, 03:34 PM
Someones going to play a wizard with an int penalty? Why? What's the point of a wizard without casting?

Well, if you're playing a summoner, a gish, or a corpsecrafter, for example, INT isn't as crucial.

And besides, playing Grukk, the Orcish Wizard, is soooo much bragging rights.

Eldariel
2009-09-09, 03:39 PM
Well, if you're playing a summoner, a gish, or a corpsecrafter, for example, INT isn't as crucial.

And besides, playing Grukk, the Orcish Wizard, is soooo much bragging rights.

Water Orc Wizard Gish would work very well. You can still get 15-16 Int which is sufficient to get 9th level spells in time and save DCs aren't that important for a Gish anyways and they'll use spells more sparingly. The +4 Str/+2 Con would come in handy.

I mean, c'mon, when a Wizard walks up to a Barbarian and RIPS IT APART WITH HIS BARE HANDS, that's got to be pretty awesome.

Gnorman
2009-09-09, 03:50 PM
I mean, c'mon, when a Wizard walks up to a Barbarian and RIPS IT APART WITH HIS BARE HANDS, that's got to be pretty awesome.

Dear god I'm almost convinced.

My other idea is a Tomb-Tainted Corpsecrafter with Destruction Retribution, so I can create tons of little critter bombs and eat one now and then when I'm feeling a bit under the weather.

Stabby
2009-09-09, 04:02 PM
Dear god I'm almost convinced.

My other idea is a Tomb-Tainted Corpsecrafter with Destruction Retribution, so I can create tons of little critter bombs and eat one now and then when I'm feeling a bit under the weather.

B-b-but that was my idea!?!? I already stated him out already!

Gnorman
2009-09-09, 04:04 PM
B-b-but that was my idea!?!? I already stated him out already!

Cheerfully withdrawn.

At this rate, all I'm going to have left is the Enchanter.

olentu
2009-09-09, 04:12 PM
Bah even though through loosely restricted race choices I could gain significant power doing so would not sit right with me for an all wizard game.

So what do you guys think.

Focused Conjurer Wizard 3/Master Specialist 2/Malconvoker 8

Of course using the appropriate conjuration substitution levels.

Then perhaps throw on some more master specialist, some prognostic apostle, sacred exorcist or mindbender.

Or perhaps Wizard 5 for the divination sub level and all that comes with it.

Skorj
2009-09-09, 04:16 PM
OK, the Recruiting Thread is here! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6896055#post6896055)

I had ruled out Orcs, but I'm liking the RP fun if someone wants to go that way. You might survey the race list for other fun approaches for Grukk. Fill me in on Tomb-Tainted in the recruiting thread - that's a class feature not a monster race template, right?

It looks like there is a good variety of ideas here, BTW, nicely creative instead of everyone hitting the same point of optimization.

Gnorman
2009-09-09, 04:23 PM
How do you feel about Snowcasting?

The crux of it works out like this: Snowcasting, a feat from Frostburn, turns any spell I add ice or snow to as a material component into a [cold] spell. As a Silverbrow Human (from Dragon Magic) with a Draconic Aura of cold, I get a scaling bonus, (up to +4 eventually) to the DCs of my cold spells - and with Eschew Materials, that's technically... every single spell I have.

It's cheap, it's cheesy, but I'm using it for an Enchanter. So perhaps that mitigates it.

It would, also, significantly boost the DCs of an Uttercold Assault Necromancer, if anyone else is making one. Just sayin'.

Also: Flaws kosher?

Skorj
2009-09-09, 05:45 PM
I think we'll be cheesy enough without flaws. I was trying to avoid artic themed stuff, and IIRC snowcaster had some extreme cheese that relied on a dodgy rules reading, but maybe I could be convinced (but let's take it to the recruiting thread).

Tyndmyr
2009-09-09, 06:01 PM
Traits allowed?

They're slightly less cheesy than flaws, because the benefit and downside are linked, making it difficult to get an amazing ability without a tradeoff.

I'll level my char up to four, and sort out what Im doing. I like the low magic theme, should make for good fun and games trying to hunt down specific scrolls.

Kami2awa
2009-09-10, 11:36 AM
Can't you drop an item as a free action? Even without quicken, we can get this down to 12 seconds.

As Bilbo shows at the start of LOTR, dropping the One Ring is NEVER a free action.

Arakune
2009-09-10, 11:54 AM
As Bilbo shows at the start of LOTR, dropping the One Ring is NEVER a free action.

It is, he just keep failing that damn will save :smallmad:

PId6
2009-09-10, 01:45 PM
Moment of Perfect Mind to the rescue! What can't ToB do? :smallwink:

quillbreaker
2009-09-10, 04:43 PM
The way to make this kind of game interesting is easy -

Make the campaign based on cleansing any kind of magic in the world

That way the party of wizards are hunted anywhere they go and if entire world is against them, their not that unstoppable anymore.

Sean Russell is an author that you may be interested in.

World Without End, Sea Without a Shore, Beneath the Vaulted Hills, The Compass of the Soul.

Ozymandias9
2009-09-10, 10:36 PM
How do you feel about Snowcasting?

I'm not involved in the PbP game, I don't often like to PbP, but I'm still really worried.

Just please, please tell me you're not asking for permission to use a locate city bomb.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-10, 11:15 PM
He's abusing Snowcasting to get major save DC bonuses, not for Locate City.

On the healing front: Arcane Disciple(Healing Domain)+Touch of Healing(reserve feat).

PId6
2009-09-10, 11:22 PM
Meh, my sorcerer can just UMD a Wand of Lesser Vigor. Any wizard can do it too with a dip in Loremaster.

Ozymandias9
2009-09-10, 11:35 PM
He's abusing Snowcasting to get major save DC bonuses, not for Locate City.

I know it has other potential avenues of use. But it also seems to be the first thing people ask for when they're looking to use a LC bomb, and they usually do so by presenting other, less alarming options. And thus it sets off my knee-jerk, "oh, no, not this smelly old cheese again: time to run" reflex.

Gnorman
2009-09-11, 01:32 AM
I know it has other potential avenues of use. But it also seems to be the first thing people ask for when they're looking to use a LC bomb, and they usually do so by presenting other, less alarming options. And thus it sets off my knee-jerk, "oh, no, not this smelly old cheese again: time to run" reflex.

I don't like the Locate City bomb trick, as one can easily throw down the old "two-dimensional" defense. I was merely attempting to make an Enchanter with massive save DC bonuses, yes.

Ozymandias9
2009-09-11, 11:00 AM
I don't like the Locate City bomb trick, as one can easily throw down the old "two-dimensional" defense. I was merely attempting to make an Enchanter with massive save DC bonuses, yes.

Hooray! A solid victory for people not being complete tools!