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Saph
2009-09-07, 07:31 AM
You're playing in a core-only game run in the Level 1-10 range, and you've decided to play a martial character. With your regular feats at levels 1, 3, 6, and 9, plus a couple more from fighter levels, you're going to get a total of 6 feats, 7 if you're human. So what do you think are the best 6-7 core melee feats out there?

Obviously Power Attack is going to get on most lists, but from there on it gets more tricky. What about feats like Improved Initiative, Quick Draw, Blind-Fight, and Cleave - how do they stack up against the Mounted Combat feat tree? Is something like Iron Will worth putting in there, or would you be better off going for Expertise/Trip?

So rank your top 7 in the order of which ones you think are best.

And just to head off the inevitable smartass comments: :smalltongue:
No, Leadership is not a melee feat.
No, you can't play a ToB character. Core means the PHB and DMG and MM.
No, you can't choose Natural Spell.
I don't care if druids are better fighters than fighters are, it says "martial character".
No, Augment Summoning isn't . . . look, just answer the question, okay? Please?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-07, 07:37 AM
What about Magical Aptitude and Skill Focus: UMD?

Cyclocone
2009-09-07, 07:40 AM
Does Improved Initiative count as a melee feat? When Natural Spell doesn't?

Well, i'd say:

Power Attack
Improved Initiative
Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes
Improved Trip
EWP: Spiked Chain

Eloel
2009-09-07, 07:40 AM
A rogue is better off with Quick Draw, TWF, ITWF, Imp Init, Weapon Finesse..
A tripper is better off with Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise, Improved Initiative, Improved Trip, Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Spiked Chain)
An archer would pretty much like the entire archery tree.

Useless feats would include;
Shield-tree
Anything-but-Power Attack from PA tree.
Improved Disarm/Feint
Whirlwind Attack
Dodge tree

Kaiyanwang
2009-09-07, 07:42 AM
Maybe

Power Attack
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Combat Reflexes
Cleave
Improved Initiative
Improved Disarm OR Sunder and know how to use them

And a reach weapon. Heavy melee-type (I mean for heavy fighter and barbarian, light say, a rogue).

Saph
2009-09-07, 07:44 AM
Does Improved Initiative count as a melee feat?

Think of it as: "If you're playing a core-only fighter/ranger/barbarian/whatever, what seven feats would you take?"

Quirinus_Obsidian
2009-09-07, 07:45 AM
Power Attack
Improved Bull Rush
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack (though it sucks to get there)

FMArthur
2009-09-07, 09:09 AM
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness

Seriously guys. Toughness is probably the best feat ever, especially for the front-line melee guy. If you're getting Toughness every third level, it's like you've increased your Constitution by a full 2 points for crying out loud! So if you take it at first level, and every fighter bonus feat level... well, you'll have a lot of HP now, won't you? It's practically the path to immortality. They'll just keep hitting you and hitting you and you just won't die!

Others may decry Toughness in favor of Power Attack and other well-known traps, but if Toughness is going to make you last twice as long in a fight, you're effectively doubling your number of attacks, at no attack penalty at all! That beats the hell out of Power Attack even if it doubled your damage, which it doesn't. The ultimate charger feat, Toughness lets you rush heedlessly into danger, repeatedly. If you're properly roleplaying a fighter with 3 intelligence, 3 charisma and physicals in the 20s, you need Toughness to get through life.

Myshlaevsky
2009-09-07, 09:12 AM
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness

Seriously guys. Toughness is probably the best feat ever, especially for the front-line melee guy. If you're getting Toughness every third level, it's like you've increased your Constitution by a full 2 points for crying out loud! So if you take it at first level, and every fighter bonus feat level... well, you'll have a lot of HP now, won't you? It's practically the path to immortality. They'll just keep hitting you and hitting you and you just won't die!

Others may decry Toughness in favor of Power Attack and other well-known traps, but if Toughness is going to make you last twice as long in a fight, you're effectively doubling your number of attacks, at no attack penalty at all! That beats the hell out of Power Attack even if it doubled your damage, which it doesn't. The ultimate charger feat, Toughness lets you rush heedlessly into danger, repeatedly. If you're properly roleplaying a fighter with 3 intelligence, 3 charisma and physicals in the 20s, you need Toughness to get through life.

I was expecting this, but it was still excellent.

Doc Roc
2009-09-07, 10:15 AM
I guess core doesn't include the XPH here?

Cieyrin
2009-09-07, 10:19 AM
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness
Toughness

Seriously guys. Toughness is probably the best feat ever, especially for the front-line melee guy. If you're getting Toughness every third level, it's like you've increased your Constitution by a full 2 points for crying out loud! So if you take it at first level, and every fighter bonus feat level... well, you'll have a lot of HP now, won't you? It's practically the path to immortality. They'll just keep hitting you and hitting you and you just won't die!

Others may decry Toughness in favor of Power Attack and other well-known traps, but if Toughness is going to make you last twice as long in a fight, you're effectively doubling your number of attacks, at no attack penalty at all! That beats the hell out of Power Attack even if it doubled your damage, which it doesn't. The ultimate charger feat, Toughness lets you rush heedlessly into danger, repeatedly. If you're properly roleplaying a fighter with 3 intelligence, 3 charisma and physicals in the 20s, you need Toughness to get through life.

Can't take Toughness as a Fighter feat. :smalltongue:


Power Attack
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Improved Initiative
Weapon Focus(Halberd)
Weapon Specialization(Halberd)
Greater Weapon Focus(Halberd)


I ran out of good feats, so I might as well make it more reliable to Pow for the extra damage to make them fall down faster.:smalltongue:

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

ericgrau
2009-09-07, 11:26 AM
Power attack (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87339) usually falls behind weapon specialization in pure core (no leap attack, etc.). That AB penalty really hurts. That's also why weapon focus is much higher up than people would think, or at least above improved initiative in most non sneak attack cases. Improved crit also gives more damage than PA by the time you get it; though a friendly caster, etc. can give it to feat starved classes for free. Toughness is in fact very powerful at low levels for the reasons stated, but at high levels the % increase in HP is low and you really need to be running out of feat choices to take it. The amusing thing is that PA is also front-loaded (in core), so at low level or high toughness beats it; assuming you don't already have enough HP to stay in the longest/hardest fights.

Outside of that the core feats tend to be situational, so I can't really rank them. Tripper builds are popular, but they rely somewhat on humanoids. Etc.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-07, 11:27 AM
Isn't that the thread where most people disagreed with your assessment because you failed to consider how AB scales up faster than AC?

ericgrau
2009-09-07, 11:31 AM
Nope. But elsewhere people asked and I already showed that it doesn't about 57 times now, including average monster AC by CR tables for crying out loud. Do I really have to do this again? Hey, this time how about someone else pull out the tables before making such a claim?

EDIT: Here's a copy-paste for your convenience. But I'm not doing any formatting or other work beyond that this time:




hp init AC touch ff_ac bab fort ref will
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 1/10 (2 detail records)
Avg 1.00 1.50 15.50 15.50 14.00 0.00 2.00 3.50 2.00
Max 1 2 16 16 14 0 2 4 2
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 1/8 (2 detail records)
Avg 1.00 2.00 14.00 14.00 12.00 0.00 2.00 3.00 0.50
Max 1 2 14 14 12 0 2 4 1
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 1/6 (4 detail records)
Avg 4.50 1.75 13.75 13.25 12.00 0.25 2.50 4.00 1.00
Max 11 2 14 14 12 1 4 4 2
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 1/4 (8 detail records)
Avg 3.88 1.75 14.50 13.25 12.75 0.25 2.50 2.88 0.38
Max 11 3 17 15 14 1 4 5 2
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 1/3 (7 detail records)
Avg 4.43 2.57 15.71 13.14 13.71 0.14 2.29 3.14 1.14
Max 6 5 17 15 16 1 4 5 3
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 1/2 (29 detail records)
Avg 6.59 1.41 14.69 11.86 13.38 0.76 2.62 2.00 0.03
Max 16 4 18 16 18 2 5 6 3
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 1 (46 detail records)
Avg 12.24 1.54 15.28 11.78 13.80 1.28 3.00 2.85 0.98
Max 31 7 23 20 18 3 6 6 5
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 2 (51 detail records)
Avg 20.55 2.39 15.76 11.84 13.94 2.33 4.35 4.35 2.69
Max 42 8 23 15 22 5 8 10 6
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 3 (72 detail records)
Avg 27.26 2.68 16.14 11.51 14.64 3.30 4.58 4.18 3.31
Max 55 9 23 18 23 6 9 9 7
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 4 (40 detail records)
Avg 48.23 2.23 16.00 10.45 15.05 5.20 6.45 5.10 4.60
Max 94 6 20 18 20 9 11 9 9
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 5 (51 detail records)
Avg 56.33 3.16 17.16 10.55 15.73 6.08 7.47 5.82 4.82
Max 95 11 25 16 25 11 12 13 10
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 6 (26 detail records)
Avg 69.12 3.27 18.88 11.00 17.27 7.60 8.08 6.85 6.08
Max 133 13 29 29 24 12 14 12 12
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 7 (45 detail records)
Avg 86.98 2.91 18.07 10.38 16.44 8.38 8.67 6.98 6.56
Max 152 13 25 17 24 13 15 19 12
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 8 (31 detail records)
Avg 96.48 3.19 20.00 10.58 18.32 9.43 9.19 7.65 7.45
Max 180 10 27 20 26 15 16 14 11
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 9 (31 detail records)
Avg 130.65 3.61 21.74 10.45 19.68 11.97 12.13 9.81 8.58
Max 230 14 29 18 28 18 19 22 13
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 10 (19 detail records)
Avg 136.53 2.79 22.58 9.26 21.42 13.21 11.63 8.58 9.11
Max 305 8 33 13 33 24 22 19 14
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 11 (24 detail records)
Avg 163.83 3.96 23.71 10.92 21.38 14.25 13.75 10.63 10.3
Max 228 15 29 25 27 24 20 25 14
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 12 (12 detail records)
Avg 196.33 1.58 21.75 7.17 21.42 17.00 15.42 9.33 9.08
Max 300 5 28 13 28 30 25 12 15
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 13 (12 detail records)
Avg 167.00 2.92 27.33 10.25 26.00 14.42 14.17 9.83 12.4
Max 230 5 32 14 31 20 18 14 16
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 14 (12 detail records)
Avg 180.33 4.50 27.00 11.00 25.17 16.17 15.92 11.83 14.0
Max 287 8 35 14 35 23 19 13 18
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 15 (8 detail records)
Avg 224.63 3.50 29.75 8.13 29.50 18.88 15.75 10.63 15.8
Max 312 5 34 11 33 24 19 14 20
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 16 (11 detail records)
Avg 239.09 4.27 31.91 10.00 30.73 21.18 17.09 13.27 16.6
Max 378 8 42 16 42 31 23 16 23
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 17 (7 detail records)
Avg 244.86 3.29 28.00 9.57 26.86 20.14 19.57 11.29 16.2
Max 337 7 34 13 34 27 25 15 19
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 18 (8 detail records)
Avg 302.25 6.00 32.75 8.50 31.25 24.25 19.50 15.63 19.0
Max 375 20 37 14 37 30 23 24 23
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 19 (10 detail records)
Avg 355.80 4.80 36.00 9.20 35.20 27.60 22.10 16.30 19.7
Max 445 12 38 16 38 33 25 20 21
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 20 (9 detail records)
Avg 409.33 6.00 36.44 9.11 34.44 29.56 24.22 18.67 21.2
Max 858 12 40 17 39 48 38 29 23
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 21 (13 detail records)
Avg 393.00 4.31 38.69 8.77 37.31 27.69 23.31 16.15 20.5
Max 522 7 51 17 44 36 28 22 25
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 22 (9 detail records)
Avg 452.33 7.44 40.22 11.56 36.33 29.56 23.00 19.67 23.7
Max 536 22 47 24 47 37 28 25 27
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 23 (11 detail records)
Avg 480.09 8.27 39.91 12.45 35.27 31.00 26.00 21.82 24.6
Max 893 18 46 28 42 38 41 35 28
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 24 (8 detail records)
Avg 622.25 9.25 42.38 12.88 37.75 37.50 29.50 24.25 27.3
Max 900 27 44 40 44 48 39 38 38
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 25 (11 detail records)
Avg 600.27 8.55 44.18 18.36 39.82 34.09 27.55 24.00 28.7
Max 1105 26 52 50 50 40 45 36 41
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 26 (7 detail records)
Avg 420.29 10.43 44.29 27.14 39.57 27.00 21.14 20.14 26.2
Max 680 17 50 48 43 40 32 29 32
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 27 (4 detail records)
Avg 625.25 10.00 46.75 19.25 40.25 43.50 31.75 27.75 32.7
Max 817 20 52 32 45 75 40 37 41
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 28 (4 detail records)
Avg 894.25 16.25 53.50 26.50 43.25 42.50 37.00 37.00 31.5
Max 1102 25 57 47 57 60 45 44 35
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 29 (2 detail records)
Avg 472.00 12.00 50.50 30.00 42.50 21.50 25.00 25.50 24.5
Max 814 17 51 38 48 33 40 39 32
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 30 (4 detail records)
Avg 1064.25 2.00 40.75 13.50 40.25 48.25 36.00 26.25 38.7
Max 1785 6 58 26 58 70 47 37 50
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 31 (2 detail records)
Avg 788.50 3.50 58.00 16.00 56.50 42.50 34.00 24.50 33.5
Max 877 4 64 20 64 45 37 25 38
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 32 (1 detail record)
Avg 433.00 18.00 40.00 20.00 30.00 42.00 19.00 29.00 29.0
Max 433 18 40 20 30 42 19 29 29
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 33 (2 detail records)
Avg 605.50 -2.00 60.00 0.00 60.00 72.00 32.00 30.00 33.0
Max 608 -2 60 0 60 72 32 30 33
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 34 (2 detail records)
Avg 1100.00 9.50 54.00 16.00 50.50 52.50 42.00 32.50 39.5
Max 1362 15 61 19 61 62 48 42 43
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 35 (5 detail records)
Avg 1011.80 12.60 62.00 13.80 53.20 48.40 41.60 34.20 31.0
Max 1075 24 67 18 67 50 46 52 43
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 36 (1 detail record)
Avg 1676.00 11.00 58.00 3.00 57.00 72.00 55.00 47.00 39.0
Max 1676 11 58 3 57 72 55 47 39
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 37 (1 detail record)
Avg 1292.00 4.00 74.00 20.00 74.00 55.00 46.00 29.00 47.0
Max 1292 4 74 20 74 55 46 29 47
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 39 (3 detail records)
Avg 1430.00 7.00 66.67 18.00 62.33 68.00 55.67 37.67 45.0
Max 1728 13 81 22 81 96 75 55 52
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 41 (1 detail record)
Avg 1856.00 14.00 58.00 16.00 44.00 96.00 76.00 56.00 42.0
Max 1856 14 58 16 44 96 76 56 42
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 42 (1 detail record)
Avg 1984.00 12.00 60.00 14.00 48.00 96.00 77.00 54.00 42.0
Max 1984 12 60 14 48 96 77 54 42
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 43 (2 detail records)
Avg 1516.00 4.00 79.50 21.50 79.50 59.00 50.00 31.00 50.5
Max 1787 4 88 24 88 65 55 34 56
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 48 (1 detail record)
Avg 1479.00 4.00 78.00 21.00 78.00 58.00 50.00 31.00 50.0
Max 1479 4 78 21 78 58 50 31 50
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 50 (2 detail records)
Avg 2472.50 7.00 83.50 19.00 78.50 83.00 72.00 44.50 51.5
Max 2880 10 95 26 95 96 84 52 61
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 52 (1 detail record)
Avg 1732.00 4.00 85.00 23.00 85.00 63.00 54.00 33.00 54.0
Max 1732 4 85 23 85 63 54 33 54
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 57 (2 detail records)
Avg 1517.00 7.00 81.00 26.50 81.00 60.00 49.00 33.00 43.0
Max 2006 10 92 28 92 68 59 36 59
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 59 (1 detail record)
Avg 2362.00 4.00 102.00 28.00 102.00 75.00 64.00 39.00 65.0
Max 2362 4 102 28 102 75 64 39 65
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 61 (1 detail record)
Avg 2299.00 4.00 99.00 27.00 99.00 73.00 63.00 38.00 63.0
Max 2299 4 99 27 99 73 63 38 63
Summary for 'challenge_rating' = 66 (1 detail record)
Avg 2613.00 4.00 106.00 29.00 106.00 78.00 68.00 41.00 68.0
Max 2613 4 106 29 106 78 68 41 68



EDIT #2: Hmm, actually with a couple buffs you might be able to pull it off for single attacks. But not full attacks. And you could only afford a couple -1's.

Thrawn183
2009-09-07, 11:50 AM
I'd have to go with Combat Expertise, Improved Trip and Combat Reflexes.

For the most part, these three feats will get you a melee'r that will do the job.

Everything else is icing on the cake that makes things easier for the casters. Blind-fight? Means the casters don't have to help you out as much with invisible opponents. Quick Draw? In dungeons I don't ever have my character put his two handed weapon down. He's got a free hand if he needs it.

Mounted Combat is pretty decent, but it's also situational.

FMArthur
2009-09-07, 12:36 PM
Can't take Toughness as a Fighter feat. :smalltongue:

I'm starting to think Toughness's author was more of an ***hole than an idiot. That's just mean, really. :smallconfused:

Person_Man
2009-09-07, 01:16 PM
IMO, the strongest core only melee combo is Mounted Combat, Ride by Attack, Spirited Charge, Leadership, and Power Attack.

Being mounted gives you a high movement rate, and a second target to draw attacks. This is especially useful with Spirited Charge, which let's you use hit and run tactics against the enemy.

Leadership gives you a highly useful mount, or Bard or Cleric cohort to use as a buff bot.

A lance used two handed with Spirited Charge and Power Attack deals the highest damage available in core. Though with the too-hit penalty and no Shock Trooper, you'll want to pick up a Brilliant Energy weapon and/or get a hold of plenty of buffs from your friends.

Thorin
2009-09-07, 01:34 PM
I guess you should rate best the feats you are going to use more often first and the situational ones as not-so-much

Weapon Prof
Weapon focus
Greater weapon focus
Weapon Specializacion
Power attack

Would be the top (hit often and hit hard, and hitting SHOULD be your priority)


If you have great dex, but not so-great str:

-In most cases, the +4 to init from improved init is not great... unless you have an already good dex modifier; but you roll init once poer combat, so I would skip it anyhow

-Combat reflexes would be great if you are using a spiked chain or a good reach weapon

-Weapon Finesse if you are going to pump dex anyway


Improved critical is useful if you go for the TWF tree and/or if your weapon has a high crit range, otherwise I would skip it.

deuxhero
2009-09-07, 01:41 PM
I'd say
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Combat Reflexes
Exotic Weapon Proficiency:Spiked Chain
Power Attack

The rest depends on other things.

Thajocoth
2009-09-07, 01:59 PM
It seems like Whirlwind Attack & Cleave aren't incredibly popular. Why is that? I figured more options = good.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-07, 02:36 PM
It seems like Whirlwind Attack & Cleave aren't incredibly popular. Why is that? I figured more options = good.

Cleave is ok.

Whirlwind requires you to take a lot of poor prerequisites, and be surrounded by enemies. This is a bad thing.

quick_comment
2009-09-07, 02:45 PM
It seems like Whirlwind Attack & Cleave aren't incredibly popular. Why is that? I figured more options = good.

Cleave doesnt trigger very often. It only triggers when you kill an enemy (and how many enemies do you usually fight at once) and are adj to another enemy.

Its useful only against hoardes of mooks, which really arent a problem anyway. Getting cleave is spending a feat to deal with someone that isnt a problem.

casper
2009-09-07, 02:46 PM
If most expected enemies are subjects to critical hits, I'll probably make barbarian 2/fighter 8 (both count as martial characters, I guess :-) And probably choose orc as race. So we have total of 10 feats, 6 of which are fighter bonus feats. If I need to name 7:

1. Power attack
2. Weapon focus (falichion)
3. Cleave
4. Great cleave
5. Weapon specialisation (falchion)
6. Improved Critical (falchion)
7. Greater weapon focus (falchion)

Isn't too original, I understand. But sometimes works :-)

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-07, 02:51 PM
It seems like Whirlwind Attack & Cleave aren't incredibly popular. Why is that? I figured more options = good.

As Pharaoh said. Whirlwind Attack has 3 feats are requirements, only one of which can be used while performing Whirlwind Attack.

Cleave sucks because it's effect triggers 1/encounter, tops. You wasted a feat to get a single free attack when the same cost (a single feat) gets you additional attacks/round equal to your Dex+1. Cleave was redeemed by CW thanks to Combat Brute, but this is Core melee feats only, so that doesn't matter.

quick_comment
2009-09-07, 02:54 PM
Cleave+great cleave should be one feat.

Weapon Focus + Greater Weapon Focus should be one (tiered) feat, with greater weapon focus kicking it at level 8ish I think. Same for weapon spec and greater weapon spec.

Dodge+mobility should be one feat.

Improved Disarm, Feint and Trip should be one feat.

Improved bullrush, overrun and sunder should be one feat.

Having weapon focus and weapon spec in a weapon should grant improved critical for free.

Saph
2009-09-07, 02:58 PM
Cleave sucks because it's effect triggers 1/encounter, tops. You wasted a feat to get a single free attack when the same cost (a single feat) gets you additional attacks/round equal to your Dex+1.

Bear in mind that you can take Combat Reflexes AND Cleave, and in fact the two work together pretty well (more reach makes it easier to have multiple enemies in range to hit). Actions are the currency of D&D combat, so Cleave is a fairly good feat simply because it gives you more actions. If you're playing a killy-type, you should be dropping an enemy fairly often. At low levels (1-5) when groups of goblins, kobolds, and orcs are the norm, being able to Cleave is almost as good as having an extra standard action each round.

9mm
2009-09-07, 03:52 PM
Bear in mind that you can take Combat Reflexes AND Cleave, and in fact the two work together pretty well (more reach makes it easier to have multiple enemies in range to hit). Actions are the currency of D&D combat, so Cleave is a fairly good feat simply because it gives you more actions. If you're playing a killy-type, you should be dropping an enemy fairly often. At low levels (1-5) when groups of goblins, kobolds, and orcs are the norm, being able to Cleave is almost as good as having an extra standard action each round.

*snaps back to his first ever D&D champain*

CLEAVE-A-THON!

*clears room of Drow*

Eldariel
2009-09-07, 04:10 PM
How I'd rate them:

1. Improved Trip
2. Power Attack
3. Combat Reflexes
4. Combat Expertise (yeah, it's a prerequisite but meh)
5. Cleave
6. EWP: Spiked Chain
7. Improved Initiative

There, 7 feats spent without taking anything crappy! Though Mounted Combat-feats aren't bad; Spirited Charge is by far the best damage dealer in Core. It's just that they're hard to make work. Also, Spirited Charge costs you 3 feats. Though Trample and Ride-By Attack are both pretty useful; it's really Spirited Charge that actually deals DAMAGE in Core.

After that, you end up with Quick Draw, Weapon Focus-line, Dodge, Improved Disarm, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Grapple, Improved Critical, TWF, Rapid Shot (this is by far the best archery feat in Core, but alone not enough to make it anything but horrible), etc.


As for Whirlwind Attack, the second problem with it is that you typically need to be adjacent to 4+ opponents at the start of your turn to make it better than just plain full attack. That's just not happening.

theMycon
2009-09-07, 05:17 PM
*snaps back to his first ever D&D champain*

CLEAVE-A-THON!

*clears room of Drow*

I remember once, in an early game with a "theoretical optimizer"...
Me: "What do you mean, you didn't take fireball?"
Wiz: "I barred evocation! It's worthless! You do the hurting and stand between us!"
Me: "There's a dozen frickin' Ant-monsters, clumped together, right there, ready to shoot past me and kill you."
Wiz: "But... but I didn't expect to run into archers! Kill them fast! You hit on a three!"
Me: "How the heck to I kill a dozen guys at... Oh, sweet."
Me: *jumps over their heads, into the middle of the swarm of enemies.* *power attacks as he lands* One down... *great cleave* 8 more down...
Me: "Well, poot. I'm all out of targets."
3 surviving ant-monsters: "Uhh... ignore the last two hours of us swarming at you. We can't see lawful characters anymore."

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-07, 05:18 PM
What's the point?

If they were that easily killed, how much of a threat were they really?

And was Fireball the only spell that would have been useful in that situation? What did the wizard prepare so that nothing he had could be used?

quick_comment
2009-09-07, 05:24 PM
That situation is why wizards keep around scrolls of chain lighting. You dont need to prepare spells for the rare situation that you actually need some blasting.

Edit: Or they cast solid fog and laugh.

Cieyrin
2009-09-07, 06:49 PM
Cleave is a decent feat for that extra attack when you do drop something. Great Cleave isn't that great, as it's only useful for taking out mooks. Cleave means that after you drop one heavy, you start into the next one.

The only reason I'd take Great Cleave is if I was going to get Supreme Cleave afterwards (which is PRC only, as far as i'm aware).

quick_comment
2009-09-07, 07:24 PM
The only reason I'd take Great Cleave is if I was going to get Supreme Cleave afterwards (which is PRC only, as far as i'm aware).

Supreme Cleave + ability to hit on an 11 + enough damage to kill someone in 1 hit + aura of perfect order + press the advantage + sparring dummy of the master = kill entire army in 1 action.

You need master of 9 or gestalt for the build, since you need dual stances and devoted spirit and a level of monk.

The above lets you not worry about missing on a one, lets you take 10ft steps instead of 5ft steps, and whenever you take a 5ft step, you can take another 1.

So you kill a mook, move up to 20ft, kill another mook, repeat. Dead army in 1 attack.

For extra hilarity, do it in gestalt with iaijutsu master on the other side with a gnome quickrazor.

Cieyrin
2009-09-07, 08:01 PM
You need master of 9 or gestalt for the build, since you need dual stances and devoted spirit and a level of monk.

Eh, UMD the Sparring Dummy. You got skill ranks to spare, right? I wouldn't dip 1 level of monk just for that and UMD is pretty useful for any build, even if it's cross class. I'm sure you can throw together enough temporary skill bonuses to ensure you can make the DC 20 to pull it off.

quick_comment
2009-09-07, 08:04 PM
Eh, UMD the Sparring Dummy. You got skill ranks to spare, right? I wouldn't dip 1 level of monk just for that and UMD is pretty useful for any build, even if it's cross class. I'm sure you can throw together enough temporary skill bonuses to ensure you can make the DC 20 to pull it off.

I suppose that works. That simplifies the build to warblade 20 with martial stance: aura of perfect order

Badgercloak
2009-09-07, 08:25 PM
Weapon Focus
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave
Improve Critical
Power Critical

Perferably using a two handed weapon.

Arbitrarity
2009-09-07, 08:29 PM
Cleave doesn't use original attack roll, so you need to start rolling cleave attacks, because Aura of Perfect Order is 1/round.

quick_comment
2009-09-07, 08:33 PM
Cleave doesn't use original attack roll, so you need to start rolling cleave attacks, because Aura of Perfect Order is 1/round.

Huh, never noticed that before.

Cieyrin
2009-09-07, 09:15 PM
Weapon Focus
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave
Improve Critical
Power Critical

Perferably using a two handed weapon.

Power Critical isn't Core, unfortunately. :smallannoyed:

Eldariel
2009-09-07, 09:21 PM
Power Critical isn't Core, unfortunately. :smallannoyed:


Nor is it any good so it's just pure plus that it isn't available.

Glimbur
2009-09-07, 10:29 PM
Power Attack (sometimes you fight an ooze, sometimes you fight a wall, etc.)
Blind Fight (situational, but denying a popular route for Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike/etc can be good. Other fringe benefits)
Combat Reflexes (We've got plenty of feats, teams well with...)
Combat Expertise (pre-req)
-Improved Trip (useful v humanoids)
Iron Will(I guess +2 isn't all bad, situational)
Improved Initiative (Less critical due to Combat Reflexes, but going sooner is nice)

I know there's no Spiked Chain on that list, but you can get by with a reach weapon and armor spikes. The things that are hard to trip are generally Large or larger, so you can focus on the reach weapon for enchanting.

Eldariel
2009-09-07, 10:39 PM
I know there's no Spiked Chain on that list, but you can get by with a reach weapon and armor spikes. The things that are hard to trip are generally Large or larger, so you can focus on the reach weapon for enchanting.

It's hard to power attack with armor spikes though; in Core, they really provide little benefit. If something corners you so that you can't use your Guisarme, you are pretty ****ed even if you can hit it for 1d6+Str damage per turn.

warrl
2009-09-08, 12:22 AM
Whirlwind requires you to take a lot of poor prerequisites, and be surrounded by enemies. This is a bad thing.
In the campaign our group just finished, the lowland-troll rogue would leap into the midst of enemies so he could use Whirlwind Attack on large numbers of them. Of course he was a Large creature himself, and had natural reach, so his whirlwind went through 28 squares. Oh, and the DM liked to throw small armies of individually weaker creatures at us - outnumbering us six-to-one on at least a couple occasions.

Eldariel
2009-09-08, 12:25 AM
In the campaign our group just finished, the lowland-troll rogue would leap into the midst of enemies so he could use Whirlwind Attack on large numbers of them. Of course he was a Large creature himself, and had natural reach, so his whirlwind went through 28 squares. Oh, and the DM liked to throw small armies of individually weaker creatures at us - outnumbering us six-to-one on at least a couple occasions.

Cleave + Full Attack is more than sufficient to clean out mooks. Saves you 3 feats. If Whirlwind Attack were a standard action, it would be useful, but as a full-round action, it's no faster than a full attack and very rarely more efficient.

warrl
2009-09-08, 04:38 AM
Cleave + Full Attack is more than sufficient to clean out mooks. Saves you 3 feats. If Whirlwind Attack were a standard action, it would be useful, but as a full-round action, it's no faster than a full attack and very rarely more efficient.

Sorry, no, I can't agree that killing 6 in one turn if you make all your attack rolls is as efficient as killing 9 mooks in one turn after allowing for misses.

(Perhaps you didn't read carefully enough to notice I was talking about a Large creature with Reach.)

AslanCross
2009-09-08, 04:59 AM
Power Attack (sometimes you fight an ooze, sometimes you fight a wall, etc.)
Blind Fight (situational, but denying a popular route for Sneak Attack/Sudden Strike/etc can be good. Other fringe benefits)


I thought Blind Fight only allows you to reroll miss chance against unseen opponents? It's Uncanny Dodge that negates sneak attack.

Thespianus
2009-09-08, 05:08 AM
Cleave doesnt trigger very often. It only triggers when you kill an enemy (and how many enemies do you usually fight at once) and are adj to another enemy.

Its useful only against hoardes of mooks, which really arent a problem anyway. Getting cleave is spending a feat to deal with someone that isnt a problem.
But it's fun to have the whole table chant "Cleave! Cleave! Cleave!" after downing some mook while being within range of another. :smallsmile:

It's more fun than to fireball them all to death, even if the fireball is more effective.

Cyclocone
2009-09-08, 05:11 AM
I thought Blind Fight only allows you to reroll miss chance against unseen opponents? It's Uncanny Dodge that negates sneak attack.

No, Blind-Fight also prevents you from losing dex to AC against invisible opponents.

BTW: Would a Fighter/Rogue count as a martial build for the purpose of this thread?

horseboy
2009-09-08, 06:20 AM
Hmm, what about LG feats? Can I grab Well Read so I'm mechanically allowed to know something? I hate playing stupid characters.
Other than that, yeah I'd go with the trip chain, though with gusairme, spiked chains are just too silly. If it's core there's probably no dred commando for the init boost and no hold the line, so yeah, I'd go with improve init next. After that mounted combat, never know when that's useful. After that it's a big bag of "meh." so I'd pick up power attack when I'm starting to loose effectiveness then squander feats on weapon focus.

AslanCross
2009-09-08, 06:27 AM
No, Blind-Fight also prevents you from losing dex to AC against invisible opponents.


Ah, ok. So it does both. I have to admit it's one feat I don't look at much.

daggaz
2009-09-08, 06:32 AM
Cleave + Full Attack is more than sufficient to clean out mooks. Saves you 3 feats. If Whirlwind Attack were a standard action, it would be useful, but as a full-round action, it's no faster than a full attack and very rarely more efficient.

Erm... I think you are forgetting that to duplicate whirlwind like that, you need Greater Cleave... so other than PA its two kinda lame feats in order to wipe the floor with mooks, rather than just one.

Aotrs Commander
2009-09-08, 07:30 AM
I think Cleave and Great Cleave can be extremely useful, if your DM, like me, doesn't have fighting 4-5 opponentsm but 10-20 with another 10-20 archers as backup, plus spellcaster support, on a regular basis...

Personally, I'd go with (and I'm assuming human, since that just about all everyone ever plays):

Weapon Focus
Power Attack
Cleave
Great Cleave
Weapon Specialisation
Greater Weapon Focus
Improved Initiative

For a straight foward sword and board or THFer.

Alternatively, using ten of the 11 feats a level 10 human fighter has (i.e. 1,1f,h,2f,3,4f,6,6f,8f,9,10f):

Point Blank Shot
Weapon Focus (Dagger)
Precise Shot
Quick Draw
Two Weapon Fighting
Weapon Specialisation (Dagger)
Rapid Shot
Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Improved Weapon Focus
Far Shot


Which, with a good Dex and a nearly as good Str, gives you a barrage of daggers, which is suprisingly capable of dealing out a fiar whack of damage. (This build is better with non-core, obviously; you can take Many Shot - evene though it doesn't work with daggers - so you can get Improved Many Shot and of course Ranged Weapon Focus...it all adds up. I have a Fighter/Ranger on this sort of build, and one of my players is using a similar one. Though to be fair, Fighters in my games get an upgrade so they gets a feat every level, so he's got to that sort of point before level 10. But he's on six attacks a round (one from haste) at level 8, four of them at full BAB, dealing D4+9 damage (plus Point-Blank shot). Which is not too bad at all.)

quick_comment
2009-09-08, 08:23 AM
Erm... I think you are forgetting that to duplicate whirlwind like that, you need Greater Cleave... so other than PA its two kinda lame feats in order to wipe the floor with mooks, rather than just one.

What?

Cleave+great cleave is two feats. They require power attack (a good feat)

Whirlwind attack requires combat expertise, dodge, mobility AND spring attack.

So its two feats (plus one you were going to take anyway) vs 5 feats, none of which you would otherwise take.

kjones
2009-09-08, 08:49 AM
Cleave is OK. The problem with Great Cleave, as others here have already pointed out, is that if you're capable of dropping more than one enemy in a single round... how much of a threat do they really pose? How often do you fight large groups of tightly bunched, high damage-dealing, low HP, low AC enemies? Because that's really the only situation in which Great Cleave is worth it.

Glyde
2009-09-08, 08:54 AM
Exotic Weapon Proficiency - Spiked Chain
Power Attack
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip
Cleave
Great cleave
Combat Reflexes


That's... That's what I'd probably get.

Eldariel
2009-09-08, 11:35 AM
Sorry, no, I can't agree that killing 6 in one turn if you make all your attack rolls is as efficient as killing 9 mooks in one turn after allowing for misses.

(Perhaps you didn't read carefully enough to notice I was talking about a Large creature with Reach.)

I did. Just, "Hit + Cleave + Haste + Cleave + 2nd Hit + Cleave + 3rd Hit + Cleave + 4th Hit + Cleave" seems quite sufficient for dropping mooks. Sure, there are the natural 1s that miss, but statistically you should only roll ½ a 1 on that attack roll.

Cieyrin
2009-09-08, 11:39 AM
But it's fun to have the whole table chant "Cleave! Cleave! Cleave!" after downing some mook while being within range of another. :smallsmile:

It's more fun than to fireball them all to death, even if the fireball is more effective.

I immediately thought of this upon reading this post: http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0102.html

Draz74
2009-09-08, 11:46 AM
Cleave + Full Attack is more than sufficient to clean out mooks. Saves you 3 feats. If Whirlwind Attack were a standard action, it would be useful, but as a full-round action, it's no faster than a full attack and very rarely more efficient.

And outside of Core, if there ever was a use for Whirlwind Attack, it's now been replaced by the Whirling weapon enhancement from MIC. :smallamused: 3/day is easily sufficient for most uses of the "feat."