Hypothetical optimization question:Fight forever

[deuxhero]

I saw a comment about dread necromancers with infinite healing and I recalled a question/challenge I have been meaning to ask/give. What is the most powerful party that can fight forever?


Rules
No Pun Pun, omnicifecer ect. 4 level 20 characters with standard wealth, no cohorts or hirelings except for those granted by class abilities (unless it is leadership as a bonus feat), mounts and that website published feat that gave you an animal companion.
Endless time (to use your infinite healing and such) between encounters, but anything that requires the passage of time greater than minutes does not work (you can't recover /day /week and spell casting abilities, take advantage of natural healing ect..) except for effect length. Characters have no need to eat, sleep or drink (but bonus points if you can get deal with it anyways).

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Crusader w/Ring of Sustainance

Wizard with the Minor Shapeshift Reserve Feat, and a Ring of Sustainance, using the UA rules for recharging magic.

Fistbeard Beardfist w/Ring of Sustainance and an item that generates infinite alcohol.

Elan Psion with one of the tricks that gets infinite PP

Tomb Tainted Soul Warlock with a Ring of Sustainance

Binder

Planar Shepard

[deuxhero]

Except that shape change will go away after 24 (?) hours, even if you can't recover spells. (sorry if I wasn't clear)

[NEO|Phyte]

Hmm, don't feel like going through to come up with solid stats, but I'd guess that Crusaders with the assorted DS healing strikes would be handy, maybe a Warblade with that one IH healing boost, throw in a Binder that takes a minute or two every 24 hours to rebind Buer for fast healing and the ability to heal with a touch...

Probably missing a few things, but eh.

[daggaz]

None of those work by RAW. Rings of sustenance only decrease the time a character needs to sleep, not elliminate it completely. Not to mention, continually fighting (at least if its melee) for long periods of time is an exhausting business. Either way, eventually fatigue and exhaustion set in, and any character that isnt immune to fatigue and which doesnt ever sleep will collapse based on his con score, all after RAW.

So some kind of construct with infinite healing powers, ditto undead.

[deuxhero]

Still removes the need for food/water. It is only for bonus points anyways, characters in this challenge won't get tired from anything short of a spell or what not.

[NEO|Phyte]

None of those work by RAW. Rings of sustenance only decrease the time a character needs to sleep, not illiminate it completely. Not to mention, continually fighting (at least if its melee) for long periods of time is an exhausting business. Either way, eventually fatigue and exhaustion set in, and your character will collapse based on his con score, all after RAW.

The 9th level Devoted Spirit strike pops a Heal spell on someone if it hits. Heal eliminates fatigue/exhaustion.

[daggaz]

Still removes the need for food/water.

Yeah, which is only one of the problems of infinite fighting. You will notice, its not the problem I highlighted, as its kinda pointless to argue about a problem that was solved, rather than the ones which were not. IE Exhaustion and Fatigue.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

None of those work by RAW. Rings of sustenance only decrease the time a character needs to sleep, not elliminate it completely. Not to mention, continually fighting (at least if its melee) for long periods of time is an exhausting business. Either way, eventually fatigue and exhaustion set in, and any character that isnt immune to fatigue and which doesnt ever sleep will collapse based on his con score, all after RAW.


5 2/day wands of Lesser Restoration.

Additional characters:

Tomb Tainted Soul Warlock with Utterdark Blast.


Except that shape change will go away after 24 (?) hours, even if you can't recover spells. (sorry if I wasn't clear)

Minor Shapeshift also allows for temp HP, so there's still something, I suppose...

[deuxhero]

except that the eneteral wands won't recharge...

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Ok, so *nothing* recharges, not even maneuvers?

[jcsw]

Genesis: 24 Hours:1 Round time trait/timeless trait
Raise some livestock in it, pick one of the offspring
Planar Bubble: In that 1 round everything in that bubble has 24 hours.

Very cheesy i know.


Ok, so *nothing* recharges, not even maneuvers?
No but OP specifically said only things which can take place within times defined by minutes can take place.

[NEO|Phyte]

Ok, so *nothing* recharges, not even maneuvers?

Maneuvers don't take longer than "minutes" to recharge, so they can recharge.

[Dixieboy]

Ok, so *nothing* recharges, not even maneuvers?
Those do, Wands NEVER recharge.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

So, I hear things about this "Arcane Swordsage"...

And the UA rules for recharging magic...

[AstralFire]

So, I hear things about this "Arcane Swordsage"...

That's cheating. That's not a class. That's an idea of a class.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

What about the UA rules for recharging magic?

Edit:
So far, we have:

Classes:
Crusader w/Ring of Sustainance

Wizard with the Minor Shapeshift Reserve Feat, and a Ring of Sustainance.

Fistbeard Beardfist w/Ring of Sustainance and an item that generates infinite alcohol.

Elan Psion with one of the tricks that gets infinite PP

Tomb Tainted Soul Warlock with a Ring of Sustainance

Binder

Planar Shepard

Races:
Warforged
Necropolitan

[Cyclocone]

Warforged don't eats or sleep.

I remember a thread where someone mentioned using Wish to recover spells á la BG2.
Now, I'm not sure if that would reasonably be within the limits of the spell. But, assuming it is, a Warforged Dweomerkeeper could fight forever.

[AstralFire]

What about the UA rules for recharging magic?

I suspect that would also not be allowed because that's a variant system-engine component.

[deuxhero]

A variant rule, so no (Will allow the alternete class features and might allow LA buyoff, but that is it).

[Grumman]

4 * Dwarf Crusader 5 / Cloistered Cleric of Wee Jas 2 / Deepwarden 2 / Ruby Knight Vindicator 10 / Warblade 1 with the Extra Granted Maneuver and Touch of Healing feats, Wakeful Mind and Heavy Legs grafts, Rings of Sustainance and glasssteel Mechanus Gear.

They can each use Revitalizing Strike, Rallying Strike and Strike of Righteous Vitality every three rounds. That's 80 points of healing each, every round, with no need to eat, drink, sleep or stop fighting.

If LA buyoff is allowed, make them Spellwarped, too, to make them even tougher and give them SR.

[Yukitsu]

Can't remember how I did this. Cael, my arcane caster found a trick to regain spell slots without resting by abusing metamagic and absorb magic. Every set of castings, he regained absorb magic, as well as 5 levels worth of spells. If he rolled well, he could regain a time stop, and regain many spells while in the time stop (often including the time stop).

He was a baelnorn, so durability was no issue to him.

I think he had a spell like ability feat, and had used metamagic shenanigans to heighten his spell like into a level 8 spell, meaning he'd absorb 8 spell levels for using it (I think it was a scorching ray or something useless.) Of course, if an enemy tried to cast a spell on him, he'd simply happily regain that spell.

Incantrix FTW, I guess.

[ericgrau]

Genesis: 24 Hours:1 Round time trait/timeless trait


You can’t manipulate the time trait on your demiplane; its time trait is as the Material Plane

Did you really think they'd let something like that slip by?

I imagine the optimal way to fight forever would be a source of infinite healing from one party member, rings of sustenance, and fighters. All elves or liches or what have you for the sleep issue. Fighters b/c they'll do more damage than reserve feats and such, barring cheesy tricks, and b/c rage, smite, etc. are out. Warblades and other ToB stuff would probably work even better.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Did you really think they'd let something like that slip by?

Considering all the other things they let slip by?

Hey, I had an idea: Tidesinger had a build that used Twin Spell and Repeating Spell to create more and more copies of a spell, so we could start some sort of infinite spell generation loop matrix resonance cascade thing here...

[ericgrau]

Considering all the other things they let slip by?

Usually it's things like this where it's player error, or a fairly liberal interpretation of the rules. But something as obvious and easy to explain as the time trait isn't going to slip by. At worst you'd get some ambiguous wording about it, or a way to do XYZ to work around some restriction and then alter the time trait.

[Tyndmyr]

Any warforged/construct doesn't need to sleep, right?

Technically, couldn't IHS be used to negate the fatigue from not sleeping? That right there gives you a pretty good variety of possible 24/7 types, albeit mainly melee.

Of course, any elf or char w ring of sustenance only needs 4/2hrs sleep respectively. If the party is fighting in place, you can rotate through those that need to sleep pretty quickly. Rope trick to ensure they stay undisturbed.

The sleep issue is pretty easy to get around. Food is even easier, even low level spells can manage that, same for inexpensive magic items.

Healing...well, a belt of healing apiece for starters. That gives them each three heals a day. You could also make unslotted items with x heals a day....in higher party, ring of regeneration would also work.

What level are we talking at, and how difficult of a fight?

[Jack_Simth]

Let's see...

If everyone takes Tomb-Tainted Soul (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Tomb-tainted_Soul,all) from Libris Mortis, then a one-level dip by someone in the party (could be anyone) into Dread Necromancer (Hero's of Horror), and everyone in the party is at full HP after every combat, although this has been mentioned.

If that's not to your liking, four levels in Warshaper (Complete Warrior) grant Fast Healing. The Binder trick (Beuer) has been mentioned. You can get Fast Healing as a racial ability with the Feral or Saint templates (Savage Species or Book of Exalted Deeds, respectively, at +1 and +2 LA - well within range of LA Buyoff by that point). Warforged with the Overload Metabolism Feat. There's probably several other methods.

That covers HP healing. Ability damage, ability drain, and negative levels will still pose a significant challenge... unless, of course, you find a way to become immune (such as from the Undead or Construct types; a party of Four Ghosts would work well, especially if they all take Draining Touch and one of them takes the Summon Elemental Reserve Feat to deal with the HP).

Ah, here we go: There's a Psionic trick for infinite Power Points that'd cover everything. Affinity Field + Bestow Power. And Psion's get abilities for dealing with Ability Damage, Ability Drain, Negative Levels, Level Drain, and HP damage (although some of those cost XP), with just the XPH. That'd do it.

The Complete Mage (and Complete Champion) reserve feats are a must if you want to include a "traditional" spellcaster (because they're traditional). Reserve Feats of Minor Shapeshift, Summon Elemental, Acidic Splatter, the regular feat of Heighten Spell, and a Permanencied Arcane Sight (or the Magic Sensitive Reserve Feat) let a Wizard or Cleric fight (somewhat) all day long, as well as de-trap all day long ... although they won't be particularly optimal here due to the time needed to regain spells being measured in hours in most cases, making them sub-optimal for this exercise.

Most of the fast Healing tricks require small dips by someone in the party - one Binder / Dread Necromancer coveres HP healing for the entire party. Otherwise, useful classes will be: Binder, Factotum, any Tome of Battle class, Warlock, Marshal, Dragon Shaman, any of the Melee classes, any of the skill-based classes, and probably a few other "infinite" or encounter-based classes that I've missed.

So... my party for this:
Ghost Sorcerer-15 (a bit higher, using LA buyoff, but I'm ignoring that for now)
Important Feats: Heighten Spell (1st), Arcane Preparation (3rd), Acidic Splatter (6th), Minor Shapeshift (9th), Summon Elemental (12th), Fiery Burst (15th). Use Heighten Spell and Arcane Preparation to prepare spells for the Reserve Feats in your highest level spell slots. Use scrolls (or Limited Wish) to Permanency Arcane Sight.
Chosen Ghost Abilities: Draining Touch, Malevolence, Telekenisis (in that order of importance, if we only get one or two)
Ability Score Priority: Charisma, Dex, Wisdom, Intelligence, Strength, Constitution (Strength being - while incorporeal, Con being a total nonability)
Notable Spells: Stuff to fill out the Reserve Feats, plus Limited Wish and Arcane Sight (Arcane Sight, Limited Wish (Permanency) on Arcane Sight)
Notable Items: Third Eye Sense (Expanded Psionic Handbook; for scouting), Ring of X-Ray Vision (also for scouting). Standard Sorcerer items for the rest of it (Cloak of Charisma, Vest of Resistance, Gauntlets of Dexterity, Bracers of Armor, et cetera)
... we could use four of him with different direct-offense reserve feats (trade Acidic Spatter and Fiery Burst out for Invisible Needle, Clap of Thunder, Storm Bolt, and Winter's Blast), as he can fill any roll in the party at least somewhat, himself (Healer? Posess someone, Summon an Elemental, and use Draining Touch on the elemental; healing goes to the possessed person. De-trapping? Look for magical stuff with Arcane Sight, throw reserve feat elementals in advance to trigger the mundane ones, and then blast the trap to bits with direct damage reserve feats, or with smashing objects via Telekenesis. Scouting? Third Eye Sense, or go Ethereal and use the Ring of X-Ray Vision. Arcanist? Got it covered as a Sorcerer, not that he'll be all that grand at it as he can never replenish spells. Melee? Posess an opponent, hold on to him until he dies (healing as needed), and replace him when wears out).

But four copies of one guy is no fun. So we do a ghostly party, picking whatever for the other three, just making sure that they all have Draining Touch, Fast Healing as a racial/PrC ability, a Vampiric Dagger from the Magic Item Compendium, or some other method of limitless healing. Sorcerer provides the targets for Draining Touch or the Vampiric Dagger as needed.

[deuxhero]

Nice, if I could, I'd give a made of win to Jack_Simth.

[woodenbandman]

4 Necropolitans. One is a totemist. Feats include Dragon Tail, the tentacle granting feats, and all that fun stuff. With like a million natural attacks, it is ensured that he'll blend through all the enemies like delicious butter. Would help to have some dragonfire inspiration on this. Needs undead meldshaper, but eh.

The second one is, of course, a bard, who has pimp DFI (+12 or more is trivial at this level). He never stops playing. Why would he? This guy sits behind a trillion protective walls along with everyone else who should never be hit. Or not, he'll be fine, because he gets healed for almost all the damage he takes.

The third person is the healer. They are a Binder/Cleric/Tenebrous Apostate. Once every five rounds, like clockwork, they heal everyone 1d6 per effective turning level. Naturally this is optimized out the butt, and they can be an effective secondary fighter in addition to this by binding Halphax and Chupoclops. On rare occasions they can supplement their 1/5 rounds healing with another burst, and it doesn't specify that you need to rest in order to regain your turning attempts. I'm fairly certain that they won't run out.

The fourth person is an archer. Perhaps a Warblade with Time Stands Still. Don't know if DFI applies to ranged attacks, but if not, no biggy.

The big draw of this party is that they can literally fight for 24 hours out of every day. The original plan was for dragonborn warforged with Tomb Tainted Soul, but that's another feat and more stat points and, while more classy, doesn't work with the Tenebrous Rebuke. This ability allows you to heal people like 40d6 every 5 rounds, which should help them march through murdering the hell out of everything dealing damage measuring hundreds of d6 in a round impunity.

EDIT: Bard needs to take that feat Requiem but otherwise it's all good.

[Eldariel]

Did you really think they'd let something like that slip by?

That's only the Psionic Genesis; different ability. Arcane Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm) manipulates time just fine.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Look closely.


Genesis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm)
Conjuration (Creation)
Level: Sor/Wiz 9, Creation 9
Components: V, S, M, XP
Casting Time: 1 week (8 hours/day)
Range: 180 ft. (see text)
Effect: A demiplane coterminous with the Ethereal Plane, centered on your location
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
The spellcaster creates a finite plane with limited access: a demiplane. Demiplanes created by this power are very small, very minor planes.

A character can only cast this spell while on the Ethereal Plane. When he or she casts the spell, a local density fluctuation precipitates the creation of a demiplane. At first, the fledgling plane grows at a rate of 1 foot in radius per day to an initial maximum radius of 180 feet as it rapidly draws substance from surrounding ethereal vapors and protomatter.

The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize. The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain. This spell cannot create life (including vegetation), nor can it create construction (such as buildings, roads, wells, dungeons, and so forth). The spellcaster must add these things in some other fashion if he or she desires. Once the basic demiplane reaches its maximum size, the spellcaster can continue to cast this spell to enlarge the demiplane, adding another 180 feet of radius to the demiplane each time.

Material Component
A crystalline sphere

XP Cost
5,000 XP.



You will note that the phrase

You can’t manipulate the time trait on your demiplane; its time trait is as the Material Plane does not appear

[Flickerdart]

Iron Heart Surge eliminates fatigue, exhaustion, hunger, thirst, sleep, the sun...