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View Full Version : [3.5] Warmage: Better off as a Prestige Class?



Hurlbut
2009-09-07, 11:30 AM
As you know the headline already; is the Warmage better off being a prestige class than a full class?

SilveryCord
2009-09-07, 11:33 AM
Probably, yeah. Unfortunately, it isn't.

Doc Roc
2009-09-07, 11:59 AM
Definitely. And it can be found as one in the Age of Mortals Dragonlance book, the last (that I know of) 1st party dragonlance book.

PairO'Dice Lost
2009-09-07, 12:01 PM
In Dragonlance: Age of Mortals, there's a War Mage (note the space) PrC. In 5 levels, it grants two bonus metamagic feats, the ability to add +3 damage per die to all damaging spells, and the ability to grant 2 or 3 allies a +10 morale bonus to AC. Not only would warmage be better as a PrC, it already is better.

EDIT: Ninja'd.

Myrmex
2009-09-07, 12:04 PM
It depends on the sort of game you're running. Personally, I think the wizard would be better off as a warmage, but some people are really attached to having casters being more powerful than everyone, no matter what.

Johanas
2009-09-07, 12:04 PM
I have to ask....would a straight class Warmage be able to qualify for War Mage? And would the Warmage Edge stack with the other extra dice? Hmm...

Catch
2009-09-07, 12:10 PM
It depends on the sort of game you're running. Personally, I think the wizard would be better off as a warmage, but some people are really attached to having casters being more powerful than everyone, no matter what.

And in only five posts, the debate turns to "Wizards are Overpowered." Nice and passive-aggressive too.

Anyway, the Warmage as a PrC isn't an awful idea - depending on what you include - as it partially makes up for the lost schools of an Evocation specialist or enhances the capabilities of a generalist who likes dealing damage. At present, Warmage is an NPC class at worst and at best a decent choice for an Ultimate Magus.

FMArthur
2009-09-07, 12:33 PM
Well, if there were more than just the trio of Warmage, Dread Necromancer and Beguiler, you could replace specialist wizards pretty well. The problem is that they are generally weaker than wizards, so as long as the wizard class still exists the better choice is a specialist wizard. Beguilers are the only one that actually does what he's supposed to as well as a wizard could, plus other goodies.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-07, 01:41 PM
Well, if there were more than just the trio of Warmage, Dread Necromancer and Beguiler, you could replace specialist wizards pretty well. The problem is that they are generally weaker than wizards, so as long as the wizard class still exists the better choice is a specialist wizard. Beguilers are the only one that actually does what he's supposed to as well as a wizard could, plus other goodies.I'd put DN on the same power level as Beguiler. Yes, it's weaker than a Wizard, but IMHO that's a good thing.

And Arguskos made a couple homebrew specialists (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95336) along those lines to replace the Wizard completely. Pretty good stuff.

Iorthol
2009-09-07, 04:06 PM
Why be a PrC? It's an evocation specialized wizard who can't do anything else.
They're one of the worst classes I've ever seen, because the moment you're not blasting a bad guy, you're completely and utterly useless.
Even more useless than a fighter with no skill class levels.


Also, on beguilers.
I'm playing one in a 3rd level game.
We need to stop fighting zombies and spiders! Rawr!

woodenbandman
2009-09-07, 04:18 PM
Quit ripping on warmages. They're not horrible. They get cloudkill. They get Black Tentacles. They're entirely decent.

AstralFire
2009-09-07, 04:40 PM
Also Warmages work decently with PrCs that boost their spells known, like Exalted Arcanist and Rainbow Servant. If you made Warmage Edge a boost to penetrate SR instead... that'd be good.

arguskos
2009-09-07, 05:14 PM
I'd put DN on the same power level as Beguiler. Yes, it's weaker than a Wizard, but IMHO that's a good thing.

And Arguskos made a couple homebrew specialists (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=95336) along those lines to replace the Wizard completely. Pretty good stuff.
1. Thanks for the prop there Sstoopidtallkid. :smallbiggrin:

2. I personally think that the Warmage is somewhat underpowered, since it doesn't have the better new blaster spells, such as Radiant Assault, Darkbolt, and other great spells it SHOULD have. Further, more damage is not the answer, status conditions are. The Rebalanced Compendium, from Brilliant Gameologists, has a wonderful section about increasing damage on spells and giving energy spells status conditions that matter. It's quite nice.

Riffington
2009-09-07, 06:06 PM
Also, on beguilers.
I'm playing one in a 3rd level game.
We need to stop fighting zombies and spiders! Rawr!

Zombies never disbelieve illusions. You can have fun with this.

Doc Roc
2009-09-07, 06:14 PM
1. Thanks for the prop there Sstoopidtallkid. :smallbiggrin:

2. I personally think that the Warmage is somewhat underpowered, since it doesn't have the better new blaster spells, such as Radiant Assault, Darkbolt, and other great spells it SHOULD have. Further, more damage is not the answer, status conditions are. The Rebalanced Compendium, from Brilliant Gameologists, has a wonderful section about increasing damage on spells and giving energy spells status conditions that matter. It's quite nice.

Can I get an outbound link to the rebalanced compendium? I really should move to BG from 339...

arguskos
2009-09-07, 06:34 PM
Tide: Ta-da! Linkage! (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2096.0)

paddyfool
2009-09-07, 06:34 PM
Well, if there were more than just the trio of Warmage, Dread Necromancer and Beguiler

Well, there's the Duskblade. Not sure that it offers much in the way of casting that any of the others don't, but it does make for a reasonable gish straight out of the box.

arguskos
2009-09-08, 03:19 AM
Tide, I've been wondering what you think of the Compendium? I've wanted a good rules guru's opinions on it for awhile now.

Hurlbut
2009-09-08, 12:21 PM
Zombies never disbelieve illusions. You can have fun with this.But aren't they mindless?

BRC
2009-09-08, 12:23 PM
But aren't they mindless?
Hence why they can't disbelieve illusions. They see the wall there, and even though it wasn't there a second ago, and you are attacking them through it, THEY THINK THERE IS A WALL THERE.

Myrmex
2009-09-08, 12:27 PM
But aren't they mindless?

As long as the illusion spell is a figment, they are SCREWED.

Seffbasilisk
2009-09-08, 12:52 PM
No one's yet answered the question. Is it possible, to be a Warmage/War Mage?

Hurlbut
2009-09-08, 12:52 PM
Well if I take the Zombie and spell Silent Image as example, the zombie does not 'disbelieve' unless it actually interact with whatever is produced by Silent Image. From what I can see, the typical zombie do have a Will Save.

AstralFire
2009-09-08, 12:53 PM
Double the War, double the magic. That's the statement of the great mint of Doublecast Gum.

Myrmex
2009-09-08, 12:55 PM
No one's yet answered the question. Is it possible, to be a Warmage/War Mage?

Yes.


stuffstuffstuff

and things

DragoonWraith
2009-09-08, 01:14 PM
I'm actually going to say no. Warmage, along with Dread Necromancer and Beguiler, are specifically supposed to be more limited arcane base classes than the Wizard or Sorcerer (for very good reason), and it makes sense for the Blaster archetype to be represented in this grouping.

The problem with Warmage isn't that it is a base class, it's just that it doesn't get enough nice things. Armored Mage isn't so hot, even though it is fitting, and fully half of the Sudden Metamagic feats are wasted on the spontaneous Warmage anyway. Warmage Edge is the only unique thing the class gets, and it isn't even that good - a great idea, but it increases MAD, and doesn't offer nearly enough reward for the effort. Past level 6 or so, you're better off ignoring it and pumping other things.

If Warmage had Int-based spellcasting (to complement Warmage Edge), his spell list was considerably better (still blast-y, but at least make it a better blaster than the stock Wizard - remember, a Blaster Wizard is actually fairly well balanced, so if you're removing the utility spells, you can definitely afford to give the Warmage better blasting), and had another unique class feature or two, it would be a solid class. As is, nope.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-08, 01:17 PM
No one's yet answered the question. Is it possible, to be a Warmage/War Mage?

What about a Beguiler Beguiler? Or a Witchalock Witchalock?

AstralFire
2009-09-08, 01:18 PM
Making the Warmage SAD is not a good solution. It effectively is a SAD class as it is, it just doesn't go very far on that one stat.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-08, 01:21 PM
Making the Warmage SAD is not a good solution. It effectively is a SAD class as it is, it just doesn't go very far on that one stat.
I agree, but I think Int makes more sense for a tactician/mage (which is how I generally see them; I suppose that's not directly stated in the fluff), and at least it would mean that Warmage Edge isn't completely worthless. Yes, they're pretty SAD, but that Single Ability is Cha - not Int. Warmage Edge functions on Int, and is therefore more-or-less ignored. Besides, Int is the better ability in most cases anyway, especially for a non-Conjurer... And like I said, they need better spells, and at least a couple more class features.

Mostly, my point was that the Warmage deserves to exist as a base class. That base class just needs to be better than the Warmage currently is.

AstralFire
2009-09-08, 01:25 PM
The Charisma stays. -growls-

Myrmex
2009-09-08, 01:27 PM
I'm actually going to say no. Warmage, along with Dread Necromancer and Beguiler, are specifically supposed to be more limited arcane base classes than the Wizard or Sorcerer (for very good reason), and it makes sense for the Blaster archetype to be represented in this grouping.

The problem with Warmage isn't that it is a base class, it's just that it doesn't get enough nice things. Armored Mage isn't so hot, even though it is fitting, and fully half of the Sudden Metamagic feats are wasted on the spontaneous Warmage anyway. Warmage Edge is the only unique thing the class gets, and it isn't even that good - a great idea, but it increases MAD, and doesn't offer nearly enough reward for the effort. Past level 6 or so, you're better off ignoring it and pumping other things.

If Warmage had Int-based spellcasting (to complement Warmage Edge), his spell list was considerably better (still blast-y, but at least make it a better blaster than the stock Wizard - remember, a Blaster Wizard is actually fairly well balanced, so if you're removing the utility spells, you can definitely afford to give the Warmage better blasting), and had another unique class feature or two, it would be a solid class. As is, nope.

The warmage does suck, a lot. If you were to bring it up to par with a Beguiler, it would be much better. I would give it 3/4 BAB and give it the ability to inflict status conditions with spells a number of times per day.

I'd keep the slight MAD it has, though. I like MAD, and think it's a good thing.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-08, 01:32 PM
The Charisma stays. -growls-
Ohmigosh-it's-AstralFire!

Sorry, that amused me far too much to put down.

Anyway, err, why? Is it a particular favoring of Charisma (in which case, would you favor moving Warmage Edge to Cha?), or is it favoring MAD?


The warmage does suck, a lot. If you were to bring it up to par with a Beguiler, it would be much better. I would give it 3/4 BAB and give it the ability to inflict status conditions with spells a number of times per day.
Sounds like a good start, certainly.

Would a full-BAB caster kill things too quickly? I'd guess that it would become a gish, which it's not supposed to be...


I'd keep the slight MAD it has, though. I like MAD, and think it's a good thing.
In another system, I'd agree. D&D does not handle MAD well. If Warmage Edge became massively better, it might be worth pumping Int for, but as is the general consensus is that it's not really worth even paying attention to. Abilities have very limited opportunity for improvement, and dividing that between multiple abilities is not very good.

I support "VAD", variable ability dependence, where you can get one or the other and be good, to support character customization and diversity. But in the case of true MAD, it's not a matter of making a choice between two good things, it's the necessity of getting both, which D&D makes very difficult to do.

Myrmex
2009-09-08, 01:36 PM
In another system, I'd agree. D&D does not handle MAD well. If Warmage Edge became massively better, it might be worth pumping Int for, but as is the general consensus is that it's not really worth even paying attention to. Abilities have very limited opportunity for improvement, and dividing that between multiple abilities is not very good.

I support "VAD", variable ability dependence, where you can get one or the other and be good, to support character customization and diversity. But in the case of true MAD, it's not a matter of making a choice between two good things, it's the necessity of getting both, which D&D makes very difficult to do.

That's assuming you allow people to play druids, sorcerers, wizards, and other tier 1 classes without similarily bringing them down in power, or removing them altogether.

I would change warmage edge to getting to add a non-int number to each die you roll (say, 1 for every 4 levels you have). Then I would allow the warmage to shape spells & apply status effects a number of times/day equal to 3+int score.

AstralFire
2009-09-08, 01:45 PM
I must admit I enjoy having a fad related to me. >.>


Anyway, err, why? Is it a particular favoring of Charisma (in which case, would you favor moving Warmage Edge to Cha?), or is it favoring MAD?

Yes to both. I'm a supporter of Charisma and I'm a supporter of VAD/MAU. I either proposed earlier in this thread or elsewhere to make Warmage Edge apply to Spell Resistance checks instead and give a flat bonus to all damage the Warmage causes per die over several levels. Move their spell progression up a level (to match the rate at which Wizards get new spell levels). Give them normal Metamagic Feats instead of sudden metamagic, but they can use any Metamagic Feat as Sudden Metamagic a number of times per day equal to 3+Int Mod. Increase BAB to 3/4, give them all good saves, and let Expanded Knowledge or w/e pick any spell off of the Sor/Wiz Class List.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-08, 01:58 PM
That's assuming you allow people to play druids, sorcerers, wizards, and other tier 1 classes without similarily bringing them down in power, or removing them altogether.
I don't think that's necessarily true. Even just looking at the Warmage in a vacuum, looking at what each ability gives you, adding 1 to Int is never worth as much as 1 in Cha. There is no point where it is a good idea to improve Int over Cha. Even with starting stats, you need Dex to hit, you're (hopefully) wearing armor so you can't completely drop Str, Con's always important. You can dump Wis, so that's one dump stat.

And then there's Int. Skill points are nice, but the Warmage can't do a lot with them. Even with Int 10, your 2 skill points per level are enough to max Concentration and Spellcraft - the only things you really need. Know: Arcana and Intimidate are useful, so maybe a +2 Int modifier would be nice, but Know: History rarely comes up, no one actually uses Profession, and the Warmage will never be a great Crafter, so more than 14 Int seems useless from a skill perspective. You could buy things cross-class, but that's going to be very rough; not a lot of things are worth it. UMD and Tumble, maybe? Is 1, 2, 3, or even 4 (assuming ridiculous rolls where you gain two 18's) damage per spell worth going past, say, at most 14 Int? Not really.

I'd probably prioritize both Dex and Con over Int, to be perfectly honest. Maybe Str, too. And then I'd pump Cha as high as I could. Hence, that class feature is entirely wasted, because the cost-to-benefit ratio will never favor Int enough to get a high enough Int to actually matter. And it has nothing to do with what other classes are in the game.


I would change warmage edge to getting to add a non-int number to each die you roll (say, 1 for every 4 levels you have). Then I would allow the warmage to shape spells & apply status effects a number of times/day equal to 3+int score.
Now that seems a reasonable use of Int, where getting a high-ish Int (say, making it your #2 priority after Cha at character creation) is actually worthwhile. And the damage ability is actually quite decent. That's getting somewhere. But as is, the Warmage just ignores Int.


I must admit I enjoy having a fad related to me. >.>
Glad it's not annoying, heh.


Yes to both. I'm a supporter of Charisma and I'm a supporter of VAD/MAU.
Well, I don't really have any compelling argument one way or the other on either point. I also support VAD/MAU, but D&D doesn't often do a very good job of it... As for Cha vs Int, if spellcasting is Cha-based and the class features are Int-based, then the class features need to make it worthwhile to have a decent Int. They currently don't (as I detailed above).


I either proposed earlier in this thread or elsewhere to make Warmage Edge apply to Spell Resistance checks instead
So +Int to checks to overcome SR? Definitely solid.


and give a flat bonus to all damage the Warmage causes per die over several levels.
Like Myrmex also suggested, and I agree.


Move their spell progression up a level (to match the rate at which Wizards get new spell levels).
Interesting. Yeah, I agree. I don't really think the delayed spells mechanic is a good one, in general, really. Spontaneous spellcasting isn't that great a boon to be worth that.


Give them normal Metamagic Feats instead of sudden metamagic, but they can use any Metamagic Feat as Sudden Metamagic a number of times per day equal to 3+Int Mod.
Oh, that's a very good idea.


Increase BAB to 3/4, give them all good saves, and let Expanded Knowledge or w/e pick any spell off of the Sor/Wiz Class List.
I agree with all of that.

Eldariel
2009-09-08, 02:00 PM
I would change warmage edge to getting to add a non-int number to each die you roll (say, 1 for every 4 levels you have). Then I would allow the warmage to shape spells & apply status effects a number of times/day equal to 3+int score.

Meh. I would just make it apply to each damage spell once, but multiplied by 2 on level 5, 3 on 10, 4 on 15 and 5 on 20. So you could get Magic Missiles dealing extra 5*Int (maxed at +13 or so) or 65 damage on level 20.

I think that would make the class feature worthwhile. And before someone cries broken, let's remember that this involves single-classing Warmage, so you're giving up a lot to get those bonuses. Alternative would be making it get multiplied by the spell level the Edge is applied to, or at least adding the spell level to the boost (to make Int slightly less critical to Warmage) along with some multiplier works, but that would make low-level damage spells stay weak on high levels which I don't like.

The whole "pump each die" or such I don't like since it vastly favors certain categories (basically, the spells with smallest die sizes and thus the most dice) over other damage spells; that would make Warmage's focus even more limited which doesn't seem to be a good plan.


Meh, maybe the following Warmage's Edge:
"Add Spell Level^2 + your Int-modifier to the damage caused by any damage spell."

with some level 10 upgrade doubling the Int-mod and level 20 tripling the whole bonus or some such. And yeah, status effects.