DM Question: What to do with sidequests and the plot?

[Rhiannon87]

I'm in the midst of DMing my first campaign now, and I'm finally getting close to wrapping up the first section (a pre-written adventure). I realize that I didn't do a very good job in this half of the game of making the main plot-- stopping a demonic army from returning to the material plane-- seem really important or interesting, even. The party is mostly going from event to event because they're being told to do so and are getting paid well for it. I'm hoping to improve upon that in the second half of the game, which I've written myself.

Part of the problem, I think, stems from the fact that I created a bunch of sidequests that don't have anything to do with the main plot. The idea was that, well, stuff happens in this area that isn't directly connected to the main arc; other people have problems, and adventurers might get called in to solve them. Apparently that was a mistake, as my group frequently loses track of the main plot and has to ask me what we're doing. (This may also be a function of the fact that we haven't played my game in quite some time.)

So, here's my dilemma. I need to throw them one more sidequest to get them to the right level to send them through the final dungeon in the published module. I have a sidequest more or less written up; I kind of like it, it's got a horror/insane asylum thing going on. However, it has absolutely nothing to do with the main plot and I have NO idea how to hook my players into it. Alternatively, I could spend the next week before we play again trying to put together a sidequest that relates more directly to the main quest, and perhaps even foreshadows the second half of the adventure.

What do other DMs think? And on a broader scale, should the sidequests you throw the players almost always connect to the main plot? In the second half of the adventure, I've done that a lot more-- almost everything they'll be doing will tie into the main plot. But I know I'm going to need to fill out things at later stages in the campaign... should I plan for a few unconnected quests as well?

[Katana_Geldar]

Don't sweat it, this is your first time and the fact that you have gotten them through it without throwing up the sponge is something you should be proud of.

As for the sidequest, sometimes they don't need to connect to the main plot directly and can be used as one big red herring. The players may just assume the sidequest is connected to the plot and come up with theories for you.

Anyway, you may get halfway through the sidequest and find a way to connect it, it often happens that way.

[Ranos]

Villains. It's hard to really make your players really hate the villain, but if you manage that, if you know they'll chase him through hell and high water, then the rest of the campaign writes itself. Give them the hint of a possible clue towards his location, and that's your sidequest right there.

[CarpeGuitarrem]

Villains indeed. For this specific case, link it if you want, there's lots of ways to link sidequests.

My general advice, as far as plotting goes, is to rethink the way you view plot. It's not a sequence of events that happen to characters. That's called a railroad. It needs to be more flexible than that, because the players should have a role in shaping it too.

The key to successful plotting for RP games, IMO, is to construct a plot out of modules, components. Each component interacts with the players in a different manner, and has interesting ways to interact with them. It keeps the players involved and integrated with everything. Savvy? And then you can move the modules around as needed. Here's some examples.

Characters as Modules
Roughly make characters by sketching out their key traits. Choose traits that go together, but that also contrast and interact in unique ways. Use that to form a single, coherent character. Then, use lots of different events to reveal that character's persona in subtle ways. And don't be afraid to link PCs into things. That integrates them into the story and connects them.

Billy the Evil Overlord
1. Hopeless Romantic
2. Vicious When Crossed
3. Fiendishly Brilliant
4. Horribly Charismatic

"You see a figure in a white lab coat sitting at the other end of the room, writing in a book and staring wistfully off into the distance (1). He takes notice of the party, and sets the book on the table, standing up. He bows to you, with a warm smile on his face (4).

" 'Good evening,' he says. 'You have come to join me for dinner, it looks like. Excellent. You realize that I have already prepared my reception for you? Indeed, the moment I heard the reports, I knew it had to be your group...all of the signs were lining up right. So I have prepared things accordingly. (3) Would you like to discover just what I have in store for each and every one of you?'

"As he pauses in his speech, he glances at [party member]. 'You should have seen this moment coming a long time ago, old friend. A long time ago.' (2)"

Events as Modules
Things happen, but often they happen semi-independently. Rooms and encounters are the best examples of these. If you plan a room, use the fluidity principle: a room's location is never determined until you concretely announce it to the players. Have a 50-room castle? Unless your players are utterly obsessed with exploring the whole thing (which you can easily put a damper on by introducing a time pressure), start by planning 10 rooms that can easily fit in anywhere, and flow with it. Ink in the planned rooms in specific locations, and they never need to know you never planned anything else. It's like the RP equivalent of a stage set.

Same goes for encounters. They should follow more of a logical progression, but think about making vaguer encounters, and then ways to specificize them for the situation.


Hopefully that helps. Also think of random ways you can tie together a subquest to the main plot, or tie subquests together. It really lends to a cohesive feel, which draws the players farther into the plot.

Repeating characters
Similar themes/motifs
Multiple pieces of a giant puzzle
Two different sides of an issue

[Rhiannon87]

Thanks for the advice. I think I'm doing stuff that's closer to what Carpe suggested in the second half of my game, with a big mystery, although I'm not revealing the BBEG until very late in the game (it'll be someone they've trusted and worked with, so hopefully when they do find him, hunting him down and battling him will be satisfying). I'm trying to figure out how to structure the next half and avoid some of the railroading I've been doing thus far... problem is the main idea that I have involves the party traveling around a big area and collecting stuff for the BBEG-in-disguise, and I'm not quite sure how to do that in a non-railroady way. I've been struggling with it for a while now.

Luckily people seem to be enjoying it, railroading and all. First-time DMing is hard. >.<

[Raum]

Part of the problem, I think, stems from the fact that I created a bunch of sidequests that don't have anything to do with the main plot. The idea was that, well, stuff happens in this area that isn't directly connected to the main arc; other people have problems, and adventurers might get called in to solve them. Have you thought about tying them back into your central plot? Let 'em find out that McGuffin they found way back when is suddenly helpful...hidden information, a power which helps against the BBEG, useful as a bribe with someone else, etc.


So, here's my dilemma. I need to throw them one more sidequest to get them to the right level to send them through the final dungeon in the published module. I have a sidequest more or less written up; I kind of like it, it's got a horror/insane asylum thing going on. However, it has absolutely nothing to do with the main plot and I have NO idea how to hook my players into it. Alternatively, I could spend the next week before we play again trying to put together a sidequest that relates more directly to the main quest, and perhaps even foreshadows the second half of the adventure.Put an insane former (maybe still...) demon summoner in the asylum, then let the PCs find out he may have information and / or items which may help with the main plot. They'll have to go in after him...and talk an insane inmate into helping once they do find him. :)


What do other DMs think? And on a broader scale, should the sidequests you throw the players almost always connect to the main plot? In the second half of the adventure, I've done that a lot more-- almost everything they'll be doing will tie into the main plot. But I know I'm going to need to fill out things at later stages in the campaign... should I plan for a few unconnected quests as well?I try to build NPCs and plots with several unrealized goals and / or unresolved (by the PCs) issues. Then use those to tie them into other plots, goals, and NPCs. Often in ways I hadn't thought of until the opportunity came up. :smallwink:


Thanks for the advice. I think I'm doing stuff that's closer to what Carpe suggested in the second half of my game, with a big mystery, although I'm not revealing the BBEG until very late in the game (it'll be someone they've trusted and worked with, so hopefully when they do find him, hunting him down and battling him will be satisfying). Drop a few subtle clues...something off about the guy. But always have some excuse or reason for the oddity! If it's subtle enough, they'll have an "I should have known that!" moment when he finally shows his true colors.


I'm trying to figure out how to structure the next half and avoid some of the railroading I've been doing thus far... problem is the main idea that I have involves the party traveling around a big area and collecting stuff for the BBEG-in-disguise, and I'm not quite sure how to do that in a non-railroady way. I've been struggling with it for a while now.The simplest method of avoiding railroading is to concentrate on what the NPCs "want" to do...their goals. As long as you're planning NPC goals and desires and not PC actions, you'll be able to avoid most tracks.


Luckily people seem to be enjoying it, railroading and all. First-time DMing is hard. >.<That's a good thing to remember - some people prefer tracks. Know the players! Someone used to railroads may be just as uncomfortable in a sandbox as the sandbox player is on tracks.

[OrangeQuarter]

Any advice on what players tend to, y'know, hate about villians? What particular aspects of the villian makes tehm chase of them? I mean, is it the deeds, or the personality?

[Raum]

Any advice on what players tend to, y'know, hate about villians? What particular aspects of the villian makes tehm chase of them? I mean, is it the deeds, or the personality?Just make it personal. Attack them and escape. Steal something (even if it's not all that valuable). Put obstacles in their way. Betray them. Anything to make it personal...that matters far more than any trait of the villain.

[Rhiannon87]

Just make it personal. Attack them and escape. Steal something (even if it's not all that valuable). Put obstacles in their way. Betray them. Anything to make it personal...that matters far more than any trait of the villain.

I'm a big fan of betraying trust for villains. I've got plans for a pair of mini-villains, a husband and wife that the party will work with, fight with, probably hang out with at the tavern... then they find out that she's a psychotic serial killer and he helps make sure she gets away with her crimes. The couple might escape that encounter, but they'll probably make a later appearance when the BBEG reveals himself. Or gets revealed, not quite sure how the end game is going to play out yet.

But yeah, in my experience, having someone that the party has grown to like turn on them really pisses them off.

[woodenbandman]

For me it's the double cross. Or, even better, actually be their ally, but make sure that they don't know the nature of what they're doing. If they think they're saving the world, but are actually destroying the world, THAT is really personal.

[Cyrion]

Find a way to make all of your plots (side and main) personal and connected to your players. That way they bite the plot hooks without you having to force it. Pay attention to what both the players and their characters would be interested in. For example, if you've got a swashbuckling type, usually just hinting at a damsel in distress or giving them the opportunity to solve the problem with style and panache will drag them in. On side plots, if you've got a hook for one you'll usually get all of them willing to participate. Just make sure that everyone gets a spotlight from time to time.