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stenver
2009-09-07, 03:18 PM
I few days ago, i was explained, that HD is not Level. So a PC level 10 fighter/whatever is HD 1. So that means, that level 1 fear spell is a threat to level 20 wizard
(assuming the caster, who casted fear has INT 90, so DC is insane)
Cloudkill always stays a threat and so on and forth,

So if inter party fight breaks out in the game, the low level spells really start hurting everyone

Am i right?

Flickerdart
2009-09-07, 03:21 PM
No. Class levels are hit dice with benefits: a 10th level fighter is at least 10HD.

Myou
2009-09-07, 03:21 PM
Err, not quite.

HD are hit dice. The number of d4s, 6s, 8s, 10s and 12s that you've rolled to get your total HP.

So a Fighter 10 is HD 10, because all classes give you one hit die per level.

Kylarra
2009-09-07, 03:26 PM
Sounds like this is something that was brought up when undead making is on the table.

For the purposes of Zombies (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/zombie.htm)/skeletons (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm) you don't count class levels and only count RHD.

penbed400
2009-09-07, 03:26 PM
Err, not quite.

HD are hit dice. The number of d4s, 6s, 8s, 10s and 12s that you've rolled to get your total HP.

So a Fighter 10 is HD 10, because all classes give you one hit die per level.

yes unless you are being silly and cheesy such as taking the LA+3 and becoming a skullcrushing ogre fighter who gets 8d8 to start. thus even keeping with the LA a skullcrushing ogre fighter 7 has 15 HD.

So your first part is right, second part is wrong

Myou
2009-09-07, 03:29 PM
yes unless you are being silly and cheesy such as taking the LA+3 and becoming a skullcrushing ogre fighter who gets 8d8 to start. thus even keeping with the LA a skullcrushing ogre fighter 7 has 15 HD.

So your first part is right, second part is wrong

No, I'm entirely right. Reread my post. :smallannoyed:

10 fighter levels give 10 HD.

All classes give 1/level.

Flickerdart
2009-09-07, 03:31 PM
yes unless you are being silly and cheesy such as taking the LA+3 and becoming a skullcrushing ogre fighter who gets 8d8 to start. thus even keeping with the LA a skullcrushing ogre fighter 7 has 15 HD.

So your first part is right, second part is wrong
A LA+3 8HD race with 7 class levels is an 18th level character with 15 HD. Does that clear it up?

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-07, 03:31 PM
yes unless you are being silly and cheesy such as taking the LA+3 and becoming a skullcrushing ogre fighter who gets 8d8 to start. thus even keeping with the LA a skullcrushing ogre fighter 7 has 15 HD.

So your first part is right, second part is wrong

Uuuuh...

What are you saying here, exactly?

Something with 8 racial hit dice and seven class levels is Character Level 15?

Basic math. Well done...?

PinkysBrain
2009-09-07, 03:37 PM
For adjudicating spell effects which depend on level it's 15. For adjudicating experience necessary for leveling (and stuff like leadership and WBL) it's 18.

PS. I know you know this, but the OP obviously doesn't ... and sarcastic posts with only tid bits of easily misunderstood information will only serve to confuse him.

Flickerdart
2009-09-07, 03:53 PM
Let's make this a bit clearer:

LA: Empty "padding" meant to represent a more powerful race. It counts only to determine your ECL (level), from which your EXP to level up and WBL are derived.

RHD: Hit dice, pretty much "levels that suck". All hit dice have their own BAB, skills, saves and hit points, they also advance your regular feats and every-4th-level stat boosts. They also count for ECL.

Class levels: The good stuff. Like RHD but better, they count for everything including actually advancing on class ability tables.

So your Ogre would be an 18th level character, with 7 Fighter levels and 8 Racial Hit Dice. He's not a 10th level character with 8 free HD, nor is he a 15th level character because you can't buy off 3 LA at that point.

Pro tip: Having Racial Hit Dice sucks unless they're Outsider or Dragon RHD.

stenver
2009-09-07, 03:56 PM
So HD is effectively equal to class level, UNLESS it is used for raising undead purposes, even though it is specifically not noted anywhere.

so a level 10 fighter is HD 10, for the purposes of sleep spell. But for Animate dead, he is HD 1, but where exactly is this written down?

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-07, 04:33 PM
In the skeleton (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/skeleton.htm) and zombie (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/zombie.htm) templates.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-07, 04:45 PM
Specifically :


Drop any Hit Dice gained from class levels (to a minimum of 1) and raise remaining Hit Dice to d12s.

Gan The Grey
2009-09-07, 04:57 PM
Pro tip: Having Racial Hit Dice sucks unless they're Outsider or Dragon RHD.

Says the D&D snob...

Kylarra
2009-09-07, 04:59 PM
So HD is effectively equal to class level, UNLESS it is used for raising undead purposes, even though it is specifically not noted anywhere.

so a level 10 fighter is HD 10, for the purposes of sleep spell. But for Animate dead, he is HD 1, but where exactly is this written down?

T_T

I linked it earlier because I knew it would come up.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-07, 05:01 PM
Says the D&D snob...

...Uh...

No, really, most racial hit dice suck worse than the Complete Warrior Samurai.

At least the Samurai has class features.

quick_comment
2009-09-07, 05:03 PM
Some races get neat stuff with their HD, like sorcerer casting and SR.

Kylarra
2009-09-07, 05:03 PM
...Uh...

No, really, most racial hit dice suck worse than the Complete Warrior Samurai.

At least the Samurai has class features.Well some hit dice cause size advancement. >_> <_<


magical beast is at least better than npc warrior!

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-07, 05:08 PM
Some races get neat stuff with their HD, like sorcerer casting and SR.

Monsters with spellcasting tend to have insultingly ridiculous LAs, though. So they make bad PC spellcasters regardless.

Gan The Grey
2009-09-07, 05:20 PM
If you focus too much on "X sucks because Y is better," then everyone may as well just play a wizard, or pretend that D&D is just math class. Because that's what it's going to turn into.

Random832
2009-09-07, 05:20 PM
Pro tip: Having Racial Hit Dice sucks unless they're Outsider or Dragon RHD.

You forgot Aberration.

Specifically, *cough*Black Ethergaunt. Wizard casting above their RHD and LA of only +4.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-07, 05:22 PM
If you focus too much on "X sucks because Y is better," then everyone may as well just play a wizard, or pretend that D&D is just math class. Because that's what it's going to turn into.

No. Really. When something is equal to the Warrior, it's very bad.

Gan The Grey
2009-09-07, 05:28 PM
All it takes is a little imagination to make any character cool. One of the coolest characters I ever played was a shovel-wielding warrior named Gideon. I find highly optimized characters less interesting, simply because they do things TOO well.

Then again, it could just be me. I like a challenge. :smallsmile:

Kylarra
2009-09-07, 05:31 PM
All it takes is a little imagination to make any character cool. One of the coolest characters I ever played was a shovel-wielding warrior named Gideon. I find highly optimized characters less interesting, simply because they do things TOO well.

Then again, it could just be me. I like a challenge. :smallsmile:
I like being passably useful so I don't weigh down the group.

Then again, it could just be me. I like not being a liability. :smallsmile:

None of which is to say that TO or CO to the max is necessarily the best course of action, but I feel that the counterpoint is made.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-07, 05:36 PM
There is a difference between being "cool" and being "useful".

Adventurers generally need to be good at what they do. Otherwise they get killed. Adventuring is a dangerous job. Why would you do it if you're useless?

Gan The Grey
2009-09-07, 05:37 PM
None of the people I play with particularly like optimizing their ears off either. So everything is kinda balanced.

The whole "X is better than Y" character build argument is a really good example of escalation. One person is a D&D group reads about how to optimize better, takes it back to his group. His character greatly outperform everyone else, so the DM has to up the campaign difficulty. The other players end up dying horribly, have to learn to optimize better, and the cycle continues, until suddenly, no one plays paladins anymore because they are a subpar class. (Yes, I know there are MANY issues with the pally, but let's focus on the fact that I'm using it as an example)

I think optimization sorta squashes certain aspects of the imagination. I encourage my players to make interesting characters instead of powerful characters because interesting characters tend to be...interesting longer.

EDIT You are only useless if the DM allows you to be, or if you as a player just suck. If the DM doesn't give you situations to shine, then yes, you will be useless. But a good DM can allow for ANY character to be useful and fun.

Kylarra
2009-09-07, 05:44 PM
Well then most likely you won't have to deal with RHD/LA so you're soapboxing for the sake of soapboxing I guess?

I'm not really sure what the point you're trying to make is.


Yes, characters should be optimized within a certain level of each other. This is both to prevent one (or more) characters from dominating, and one (or more) characters from utterly failing to contribute.

In a vacuum, most RHD are significantly weaker than having class levels. Mechanically "they suck". This statement is no more snobbery than saying mechanically a fighter is better than an NPC warrior.

Gan The Grey
2009-09-07, 05:59 PM
Uh...why would you think I wouldn't have to deal with RHD/LA? I and my friends play characters with RHD and LA all the time.

Yes. You are right. Mechanically speaking, some RHD's are not as good as class levels. But one being better than another doesn't mean one 'sucks'. That's like saying the winner of a high school track meet 'sucks' because he isn't a fast as Usain Bolt.

I wasn't trying to be a jerk. Is it because I didn't put a :smallsmile: at the end of all of my statements that made you think that?

I'm playing the other side. I think if everyone came on this forum and all they ever saw was 'X is better than Y because Y sucks', they might miss out on making a cool character. 'Y sucks' is an opinion; I was just stating mine. Is that cool? :smallsmile:

Kylarra
2009-09-07, 06:07 PM
Uh...why would you think I wouldn't have to deal with RHD/LA? I and my friends play characters with RHD and LA all the time.

Yes. You are right. Mechanically speaking, some RHD's are not as good as class levels. But one being better than another doesn't mean one 'sucks'. That's like saying the winner of a high school track meet 'sucks' because he isn't a fast as Usain Bolt.

I wasn't trying to be a jerk. Is it because I didn't put a :smallsmile: at the end of all of my statements that made you think that?

I'm playing the other side. I think if everyone came on this forum and all they ever saw was 'X is better than Y because Y sucks', they might miss out on making a cool character. 'Y sucks' is an opinion; I was just stating mine. Is that cool? :smallsmile:

Well okay I will simply say "strictly worse than" then. :smallwink:

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-07, 06:08 PM
Personally, I'll just keep saying they suck.

All the good things you get in addition to racial HD are covered by LA anyway. :smalltongue: Racial HD are always bad.

Gan The Grey
2009-09-07, 06:12 PM
Well okay I will simply say "strictly worse than" then. :smallwink:

Lol touche.

Actually, one thing I've never liked about racial hit die is that they seem to represent 'age' as opposed to 'experience'. Like certain monsters that start out as small and reach medium once they reach a certain HD. If I was to play the character at a smaller HD, they would never really reach the next size category until I took a few more 'levels' of my race. Which is just weird to me.

Like, why don't humans have racial hit die? Like 1-2 HD makes them small, and at 3 HD they are full grown? Why do RHD have to count for levels? Boooo...

Flickerdart
2009-09-07, 06:16 PM
I take offense to being called a snob. I don't mind unoptimal characters. I don't play Batmen. But "if X is worse than Y then X sucks" is true when Y is literally everything. That's the definition of sucking. We're not talking about the high school track champ, we're talking about the greasy fat kid who rolls faster than he runs.
RHD is fine on monsters, that's what it's there for. But for players, it's pretty damn bad. To use your own example against you, unless everyone in the group is playing high RHD/LA races, the guy taking them will suck and the DM will have to make the game easier. If everyone is playing those races and someone doesn't want to, they will, 90% of the time, unintentionally pull ahead: not because they're optimizing, but because they're adhering to a basic standard of competence assumed within the system AKA not sucking. A dwarf among midgets is still the tallest.

Yuki Akuma
2009-09-07, 06:18 PM
Humans have racial hit die.

Die. One.

But when you have a single RHD, it's replaced with a class level at adulthood.

Gan The Grey
2009-09-07, 06:33 PM
I know humans have one hit die, but their single hit die doesn't seem to represent age like monster hit die does. Class levels represent experience, which can come with age, but a lot of the time racial HD seem to represent just age, as is seen when a monster's size increases at a certain point of progression.

And Flicker...calm down. Don't take it so personal. Just because I didn't put a :smallsmile: after it, doesn't mean I was trying to insult you. Forgive me if it sounded like I was disparaging your entire existence. If wanna get all technical, I could claim offense at you saying my choice to play a character with bad RHD/LA makes me 'un-pro' or a noob. But frankly, I'm not that sensitive.

About 'using my example against me'. That really doesn't prove anything. A smart player can make a high RHD/LA character work just fine. Pen and paper D&D is not Neverwinter Nights. Thinking outside the numbers will always benefit you. I've never run into a circumstance where a smart player can't make an underpowered character fun and useful. And THAT'S the point I'm making.

Flickerdart
2009-09-07, 06:40 PM
I know humans have one hit die, but their single hit die doesn't seem to represent age like monster hit die does. Class levels represent experience, which can come with age, but a lot of the time racial HD seem to represent just age, as is seen when a monster's size increases at a certain point of progression.

And Flicker...calm down. Don't take it so personal. Just because I didn't put a :smallsmile: after it, doesn't mean I was trying to insult you. Forgive me if it sounded like I was disparaging your entire existence. If wanna get all technical, I could claim offense at you saying my choice to play a character with bad RHD/LA makes me 'un-pro' or a noob. But frankly, I'm not that sensitive.

About 'using my example against me'. That really doesn't prove anything. A smart player can make a high RHD/LA character work just fine. Pen and paper D&D is not Neverwinter Nights. Thinking outside the numbers will always benefit you. I've never run into a circumstance where a smart player can't make an underpowered character fun and useful. And THAT'S the point I'm making.
You have to be very good at optimization or very quick thinking in order to keep up with a class-only character when you have LA/RHD sitting on your head. Thinking outside the numbers is good and all but it has nothing to do with mechanics, and mechanically, RHD suck. And "smart player" is quite the cop-out: you couldn't keep up? Then you must not be smart. Next! That really doesn't cut it.

Gan The Grey
2009-09-07, 06:54 PM
You have to be very good at optimization or very quick thinking in order to keep up with a class-only character when you have LA/RHD sitting on your head. Thinking outside the numbers is good and all but it has nothing to do with mechanics, and mechanically, RHD suck. And "smart player" is quite the cop-out: you couldn't keep up? Then you must not be smart. Next! That really doesn't cut it.

No, you don't, not in all circumstances. If you are playing in an optimization-heavy campaign with a DM who's got it out for you, then yes. But I don't treat D&D like a powertrip like some people do, and neither do my friends. If you just wanna make a character that's better than someone else's, I'm sure you won't have a problem with that. We can munchkinize all day long. But as a DM I can tear a munchkin down to nothing and have my RHD/LA unoptimized warrior win the day anytime I want. Bad rolls can do the same thing.

And, no, smart player is not a cop-out. A smart player can make anything work, with the cooperation of the DM. I hope your DM isn't that much of an ass that he designs a campaign where one of his players can't do anything. Challenges should be tailored to the characters. Easy enough for them to win, but hard enough for there to be a possibility of failure. Not every campaign should be 'Tomb of Horrors.'

D&D isn't all 'mechanics'. The players handbook and the dungeon master's guide both say that these rules are to be used as a 'guideline'.

BTW only a sith deals in absolutes. There are many reasons for why a player 'fails'. Not being smart isn't the only one.

Now, can we play nice-nice again? :smallsmile:

Flickerdart
2009-09-07, 07:03 PM
"It's fine because the DM makes it ok" is Oberoni fallacy. I, for one, do not want to give the person without whom there would be no game extra headaches because my character can't take on CR-appropriate challenges. This, again, has nothing to do with the mechanical inferiority of sucky hit dice. You can stop now.
I'm also not sure what you mean by "again", as I am neither playing mean, nor have ever seen you before.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-07, 07:10 PM
BTW only a sith deals in absolutes. There are many reasons for why a player 'fails'. Not being smart isn't the only one.

Now, can we play nice-nice again? :smallsmile:

You do realise "only sith' is an absolute.

Gan The Grey
2009-09-07, 07:22 PM
"It's fine because the DM makes it ok" is Oberoni fallacy. I, for one, do not want to give the person without whom there would be no game extra headaches because my character can't take on CR-appropriate challenges. This, again, has nothing to do with the mechanical inferiority of sucky hit dice. You can stop now.
I'm also not sure what you mean by "again", as I am neither playing mean, nor have ever seen you before.

I just mean, drop the hostility. "You can stop now?"

We aren't arguing the same thing at this point, sir. I'm not arguing the mechanics angle. I'm arguing against the 'you suck if you have anything but dragon, outsider, or class HD" argument. So really we're just butting heads.

Here, I'll help this along. Yes, generally speaking, from a mechanical angle, racial hit die do not provide for a character as well as class levels do. Yes, by taking a class, you are improving your mechanical character build. Your numbers will generally be higher. So, yes, from a mechanical standpoint, racial hit die are generally subpar to class levels.

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but by your logic, I should never play an minotaur, an intelligent undead, a werecreature of any kind, because, regardless of cool factor, I will not be able to keep up with the rest of the party unless they are playing similar characters. I will be useless.

My argument is this: A character with racial hit die can be just as cool and fun and effective in his niche as one with class levels. Just because he isn't the best in the world, doesn't mean he sucks.

I agree with you about racial hit die being subpar. But that was never my point. Reread my posts and you'll see that. From your responses, I'm not sure you've done that.


EDIT Starbuck. Lol. Touche.

/seppuku

Flickerdart
2009-09-07, 07:39 PM
I'm not sure what it is you're arguing then, because hit dice, whether racial or class, have nothing to with creativity or options.
I will correct you because you are wrong. I was talking about specifically creatures with high RHD: Giants, Illithids, that sort of thing. You're talking about comparatively low values which don't gimp a character all that much. And in return, you get a bevy of cool abilities. I have nothing against those abilities, or races with RHD. It's just that you gain nothing thematically from the RHD themselves. You can be an interesting Minotaur Cleric. You can't be an interesting Stone Giant Wizard, because there's no room for you to make that character yours. You could just as easily be a Goliath.

In short: Having a flavourful race isn't bad. Being punished for it mechanically is. Are we clear now? Can you stop willfully misinterpreting my statements?

Ozymandias9
2009-09-07, 07:49 PM
"It's fine because the DM makes it ok" is Oberoni fallacy. I, for one, do not want to give the person without whom there would be no game extra headaches because my character can't take on CR-appropriate challenges. This, again, has nothing to do with the mechanical inferiority of sucky hit dice. You can stop now.
I'm also not sure what you mean by "again", as I am neither playing mean, nor have ever seen you before.

No, the Oberoni Fallacy is saying that there is no problem because rule 0 solves the problem. He's not denying the problem: he's saying that if it's a solvable problem and that if a person wants to play a character with a level adjustment for non-mechanical reasons, then the presence of the problem should not preclude that option. The problem is, after all, solvable.

Essentially, you're using different definitions of suck. He's saying characters with racial hit die can be fun and enjoyable to play. You're saying that they are underpowered.

Gan The Grey
2009-09-07, 07:54 PM
Calm down. I'm not willfully misinterpreting anything. Don't use indefinable words like 'high' if you don't want people to misunderstand you. Gimme a number I can agree with.

And really, at this point, we can both just argue back and forth providing examples for why we are right. I could say that while I couldn't make a good Storm Giant Cleric, I could make a good Storm Giant Fighter.

I wasn't saying you were an idiot. I called you a snob. A snob is someone who looks down on things they consider beneath them. And I wasn't serious. Which I pointed out earlier. So stop being so defensive. It isn't necessary.

Gan The Grey
2009-09-07, 07:56 PM
No, the Oberoni Fallacy is saying that there is no problem because rule 0 solves the problem. He's not denying the problem: he's saying that if it's a solvable problem and that if a person wants to play a character with a level adjustment for non-mechanical reasons, then the presence of the problem should not preclude that option. The problem is, after all, solvable.

Essentially, you're using different definitions of suck. He's saying characters with racial hit die can be fun and enjoyable to play. You're saying that they are underpowered.

This. Thanks for the help, Ozy.

sofawall
2009-09-07, 08:02 PM
Uh...why would you think I wouldn't have to deal with RHD/LA? I and my friends play characters with RHD and LA all the time.

Yes. You are right. Mechanically speaking, some RHD's are not as good as class levels. But one being better than another doesn't mean one 'sucks'. That's like saying the winner of a high school track meet 'sucks' because he isn't a fast as Usain Bolt.

Except, say Usain Bolt is the wizard. High School track meet winner might be Barbarian.

Most RHD are then the kids who spend all their time sitting in front of the computer playing Starcraft, and can't even run 100m, never mind win it.

ericgrau
2009-09-07, 10:04 PM
ECL
/ \
HD LA
/ \
class racial

ECL = HD + LA
HD = class HD (aka class levels) + racial HD (aka "monstrous" HD)


HD determines all in game effects, including what spells affect you. ECL determines all game balancing effects. i.e., ECL determines how much xp you need to level, you travel with people of similar ECL, etc. Racial HD are like class HD without class features. You get HP, saves, skill points and BAB. Some monsters also get size increases after a certain number of racial HD, which also add on str, con and dex modifiers.

Races with only 1 racial HD ditch that HD when they get their first class HD. Those are all the races you don't think of as having racial HD, like human. Races with 2 racial HD or more keep them forever.

Human Paragon 3
2009-09-07, 10:11 PM
Helpful glossary for the true newbie:

HD: Hit Dice (How many dice were rolled to derive your hit point total. Combines your class levels with Racial Hit Dice in all but the most unusual of circumstances)
RHD: Racial Hit Dice (hit dice derived from race)
LA: Level Adjustment (the padding added onto your Effective Character Level to balance stronger monster races with the normal PC races)
ECL: Effective Character Level (all of the above added together)

stenver
2009-09-07, 11:34 PM
Thank you

/thread

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-08, 01:31 AM
...I have been itching to yell "STORMWIND FALLACY!" at the top of my lungs ever since I started reading this thread...:smalltongue: