Level 8 Fighter Only, Final Destination, No Items

[Doc Roc]

OOC\Skybox thread here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6883419#post6883419)

Here is the thread for the settling of the Fighter Versus Animal companion debate.
We will run seven trials at level eight, and then another seven trials at level 12.
Arenas will be chosen once movement modes are known.


Reminder: Sources are Core-only including XPH.
In the future, if parties are willing, we will go ahead and allow completes, MiC, and MMIII.

Animal companion may chose feats as appropriate and has 8000 gold to spend as its owner sees fit.

Fights end only with the death of one of the participants. Retreat will be... adjudicated. My chances of being forgiving are low.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Andal Durrak (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=26623), level 8 druid, with a Bear animal companion.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hi everyone,

two questions:
1. Is XPH really part of core? It is part of the SRD, but that is not the same I guess.
2. Why the gold restriction on the AC? The fighter has 27,000 to spend. This adds even more to the pile of (already present) disadvantages of the animal.:smallsmile:
Edit: 3. Is there any limit as to how much to spend on a single item (i.e. the 25% DMG recommendation?) Edit End.
Edit2: 4. Shouldn't there be long-term (hour/lvl) druid buffs be allowed on the AC? (like GMF) Edit end

- Giacomo

[Doc Roc]

1: Yes.
2: Largely because no sensible druid is going to burn all his cash on the AC. I'll go raise it to 8k
3: I've never understood that. It seems to just handicap certain classes inexplicably. I know it's supposed to simulate real play, but... I've never found it to help matters.
4: No custom items.

[Sir Giacomo]

Andal Durrak (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=26623), level 8 druid, with a Bear animal companion.

Hi Pharao's Fist,

first question: Why does the brown bear AC of Durrak have +2 higher STR, DEX, CON than the regular brown bear of the SRD, although the druid is only level 8 (brown bear yielding -6 to druid level for AC boosts). Also, it has AC 20 instead of 15. Why? Does it wear an armour?

Will now retreat to peaceful sleep dreaming of core fighters ...:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Hi Pharao's Fist,

first question: Why does the brown bear AC of Durrak have +2 higher STR, DEX, CON than the regular brown bear of the SRD, although the druid is only level 8 (brown bear yielding -6 to druid level for AC boosts). Also, it has AC 20 instead of 15. Why? Does it wear an armour?

Will now retreat to peaceful sleep dreaming of core fighters ...:smallsmile:

- Giacomo

I did not note the -6 druid level when first making the companion.

[Sir Giacomo]

1: Yes.


This (http://www.d20srd.org/) SRD compilation lists core rules as a subdivision of the SRD. But OK, I'll have a look what the psionic rules can offer to the single-class fighter...

2.,3.,4 (yours): OK.
5. Any buffing allowed prior to combat or are the opponents tossed at random distance into an arena?

- Giacomo

[Sir Giacomo]

deleted/double/clarified post.

[Doc Roc]

5. Any buffing allowed prior to combat or are the opponents tossed at random distance into an arena?


No buff rounds on the first three trials.
Builds are not adjusted between trials.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Let me know when you're ready.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Potential Animal Companions possible at level 8:

Bat:
Dire Bat
Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice:6d8+18 (45 hp)
Initiative: +6
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), fly 40 ft. (good)
Armor Class: 22 (-1 size, +7 Dex, +7 natural), touch 16, flat-footed 14 (+2 if reduced due to size and dex modifiers)
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+13
Attack: Bite +11 melee (1d8+7) (+2 if reduced due to size and dex modifiers)
Full Attack: Bite +11 melee (1d8+7)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Blindsense 40 ft.
Saves: Fort +7, Ref +10, Will +6
Abilities: Str 18+2, Dex 23+2, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 14, Cha 6
Skills: Hide +4, Listen +10*, Move Silently +5, Spot +6*, Tumble +13
Feats: Weapon Finesse, Flyby Attack, Skill Focus: Tumble

A dire bat has a wingspan of 15 feet and weighs about 200 pounds.

Combat
Dire bats swoop down upon unsuspecting prey from above.

Blindsense (Ex)
A dire bat uses echolocation to pinpoint creatures within 40 feet. Opponents still have total concealment against the bat unless it can actually see them.

Skills
Dire bats have a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Listen checks. These bonuses are lost if its blindsense is negated.

Gloves of Dexterity +2 4,000
Belt of Strength +2 4,000
35 5 lb rocks in a sack

Brown Bear:
Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 6d8+24 (51 hp)
Initiative: +1
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 19
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+16
Attack: Claw +12 melee (1d10+9)
Full Attack: 2 claws +12 melee (1d10+9) and bite +6 melee (2d6+5)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +3
Abilities: Str 27+2, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Listen +4, Spot +7, Swim +12
Feats: IUS, Improved Grapple, INA: Claw

Items:

Gauntlets of Ogre Strength +2 4,000
Crocodile: Grappler
Elasmosaurus:
Elasmosaurus
Size/Type: Huge Animal
Hit Dice: 10d8+60 (115 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares), swim 50 ft.
Armor Class: 13 (-2 size, +2 Dex, +3 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 11
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+23
Attack: Bite +13 melee (3d8+12)
Full Attack: Bite +13 melee (3d8+12)
Space/Reach: 15 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +15, Ref +9, Will +4
Abilities: Str 26, Dex 14, Con 22+2, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 9
Skills: Hide -4*, Listen +4, Spot +9, Swim +16
Feats: IUS, Improved Grapple, INA: Bite, ?
Environment: Warm aquatic
Organization: Solitary, pair, or herd (5-8)
Challenge Rating: 7
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: 11-20 HD (Huge); 21-30 HD (Gargantuan)
Level Adjustment: —
Though it resides primarily in the water, an elasmosaurus only breathes air. An elasmosaurus has a total length of some 30 feet, including a tail half as long as its entire body, and weighs about 5,000 pounds. Observers who see only its head or tail might easily mistake it for a massive snake.

Combat
An elasmosaurus is aggressive and attacks anything it notices. The creature is strong, fast, and highly maneuverable, able to turn quickly and lunge at prey. When hunting, it travels with its head out of the water, snapping down quickly to seize prey.

Skills
*An elasmosaurus has a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks in water.

Items:
Amulet of Health +2 4,000

Rhinoceros:
Tiger:
Size/Type: Large Animal
Hit Dice: 6d8+18 (45 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 15 (-1 size, +3 Dex, +3 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 12
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+18
Attack: Claw +9 melee (1d8+6)
Full Attack: 2 claws +9 melee (1d8+6) and bite +4 melee (1d8+3)
Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: Improved grab, pounce, rake 1d8+3
Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
Saves: Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +3
Abilities: Str 23, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
Skills: Balance +6, Hide +3*, Listen +3, Move Silently +9, Spot +3, Swim +11
Feats: IUS, Improved Grapple, and Improved Natural Attack (claw).

These great cats stand more than 3 feet tall at the shoulder and are about 9 feet long. They weigh from 400 to 600 pounds.
Combat
Improved Grab (Ex)

To use this ability, a tiger must hit with a claw or bite attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can rake.
Pounce (Ex)

If a tiger charges a foe, it can make a full attack, including two rake attacks.
Rake (Ex)

Attack bonus +9 melee, damage 1d8+3.
Skills

Tigers have a +4 racial bonus on Balance, Hide, and Move Silently checks. *In areas of tall grass or heavy undergrowth, the Hide bonus improves to +8.

Banded Breastplate: 800 +5 AC, -4 ACP, +3 max Dex.

I'm not sure which one I'm going to choose, as they are all have their good and bad points.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

So, are we fighting each other in this ToS, or monsters?

Basically, is this a direct vs combat, or are we comparing our ability to fight encounters?

[Doc Roc]

This is direct combat. I believe Kelpstrand will be running the PvE tests.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I have one or two reservations about PvP, namely that I can build a core wizard that kills monks and fighters rather easily, but Giacomo will not accept that as proof that core is unbalanced.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I guess this is a no go?

[Sir Giacomo]

Sorry, this took a while longer (work and all that last week).

Since in the original animal companion vs fighter debate thread, the great advantage of the mounted lance fighter or archer was already listed, I'll go for a fairly standard sword&board (or rather: flail & board) build that makes use of much of the good stuff out there that a fighter has but an animal companion doesn't.:smallsmile:.

Fighter build level 8

8th level Dwarf Fighter; Lawful Good, 32 pt buy
STR 20 (16 start, 2 stat gains, +2 enhance), DEX 14, CON 16 (+2 racial), INT 14, WIS 12, CHR 6
FEATS: Improved Initiative, Expertise, Improved Trip, Iron Will, Quickdraw, Blind-Fight, Weapon Focus-Flail, Greater Weapon Focus-Flail
SPECIAL: Dwarf racial traits (including 60ft Darkvision).
SKILLS: Listen +8 (WIS, 5.5 ranks, MW item), Ride +14 (DEX, 11 ranks, MW item), Spellcraft +9 (5.5 ranks, MW item), Craft- Weaponsmithing +17 (INT, 11 ranks, Masterwork Item, racial)
ITEMS: Masterwork tools for all above skills (200 gp), 2 spears (4gp), 20 javelins (20 gp), 20 Potions of Enlarge (1000), Gauntlets of Strength +2 (4,000), Figurine of Wondrous Power-Griffon (10,000), Ring of Protection +1 (2,000), Flail, Masterwork (308), Flail +1 (2308), Full Plate +1 (2650), Tower Shield +1 (1180), Horn of Fog (2000), Composite Longbow of STR 20, Masterwork (900gp), 40 arrows (4).
INITIATIVE: +5 (DEX, feat)
MOVE: 15ft
AC 26 (DEX, armour, shield, deflection). Flat-footed: 25, touch: 12.
HITS 72 (max d10 at first level, CON)
SAVES: Fort +9 (+11 vs spells, poison), Refl +4 (+6 vs spells), Will +5 (+7 spells)
BAB: +8/+3
GRAPPLE: +13
FLAIL ATTACK: +16/+11, Damage 1d8+6
LONGBOW ATTACK: +11/+6, Damage 1d8+5


Ready to go.
Tower shield set to total cover. No weapon drawn yet. We can try all the animal companions you listed, if you like.
[roll0]

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Ok. Let's start with the bat.

Initiative: [roll0]

If you don't mind, I would like to start off flying.

[Sir Giacomo]

OK, round one fighter action:

Draws and drinks potion of enlarge.

Turn of bat.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

The bat comes pre buffed with Reduce Animal.

It also wonders where the combat grid is.

I guess I rise to 200 feet above ground and wait for terrain to show up.

And get out a 5 lb rock, I suppose.

[Sir Giacomo]

(I guess you intend that the bat with INT 2 drops stones from 200ft to hit its prey - I guess that is not really realistic. A distinguishing feature of humans over animals, after all, is that the first have learnt how to use tools:smallbiggrin:)

In case the fighter sees only a normal-sized bat, I do not think he would have drunk the enlarge potion after the bat's flying move up.

ALTERNATIVE ROUND 1 Fighter Action
Instead, lose shield, quickdraw longbow, and shoot. I do not know about the range or how the bat manages to fly up 200ft in around with only 40ft speed. Similarly, I do not calculate the bat loses the DEX bonus for doing 4x move. I do think, though, that the bat is not within charging distance while flying up and thus deduct a -2 range penalty.
[roll0]
[roll1]

In case you disagree, I think we should wait for tidesinger to DM.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

(I guess you intend that the bat with INT 2 drops stones from 200ft to hit its prey - I guess that is not really realistic. A distinguishing feature of humans over animals, after all, is that the first have learnt how to use tools:smallbiggrin:)
Chimpanzees.

[Sir Giacomo]

I do not think those that are being close to humans remain at INT 2 ...:smallsmile: (I mean, some have even learned sign language!)

EDIT: thinking of it, I guess it should be allowed that the extra trick for the animal companion is something like that.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

In case the fighter sees only a normal-sized bat, I do not think he would have drunk the enlarge potion after the bat's flying move up.

ALTERNATIVE ROUND 1 Fighter Action
Instead, lose shield, quickdraw longbow, and shoot. I do not know about the range or how the bat manages to fly up 200ft in around with only 40ft speed. Similarly, I do not calculate the bat loses the DEX bonus for doing 4x move. I do think, though, that the bat is not within charging distance while flying up and thus deduct a -2 range penalty.
[roll0]
[roll1]

In case you disagree, I think we should wait for tidesinger to DM.

Started off flying, remember? Altitude determined by me.

If you want to be "realistic" about this, keep in mind that firing directly upwards incurs a rather steep penalty (no pun intended) because gravity works against you.

In physics terms, when firing horizontally, downward acceleration due to gravity does not affect the horizontal velocity of the arrow. They are two different forces. However, when firing upwards, the effect of the downward acceleration due to gravity becomes more pronounced because the arrow is going in a direction opposite to that of gravity.

But I suppose it all depends on how realistic you want to be...

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I do not think those that are being close to humans remain at INT 2 ...:smallsmile: (I mean, some have even learned sign language!)


The DnD Chimp is still INT 2, as are all animals.

[Sir Giacomo]

So with round 2 bat actions coming up, at what altitude and distance do you suppose the bat is and we can take it from there?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I want to start off at 200 feet up.

I assume we're on open ground and outsider.


I'll circle down to 120 feet.

[Sir Giacomo]

OK before round 2 fighter action(s), some issues with your animal companion:
Since it is normal for its kind (as per animal companion description), it gets a bonus feat, but not its usual feats replaced with three feats you listed. Also, the DM chooses the feat normally -but in this case take the one which you think is best for the situation.
Then, I do not know how you fit both gloves of DEX +2 onto the creature and gauntlets of ogre power (STR +2). Additionally, a bat certainly cannot wear these 5-digit-clothes. Imo at least.
But I guess it makes no difference, anyhow.

Fighter Round 2 action:
Full attack with bow.
[roll0]
[roll1]
[roll2]
[roll3]

[Sir Giacomo]

A threat on the second attack:

[roll0]

Bat at 39 hp.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

OK before round 2 fighter action(s), some issues with your animal companion:
Since it is normal for its kind (as per animal companion description), it gets a bonus feat, but not its usual feats replaced with three feats you listed.

Actually, the DM said to assume that Psychic Reformation was cast on the bat at some point.


Then, I do not know how you fit both gloves of DEX +2 onto the creature and gauntlets of ogre power (STR +2). Additionally, a bat certainly cannot wear these 5-digit-clothes. Imo at least.
Gauntlets reslotted to the belt slot. Custom made Gloves for the bat.

In addition, the words partially charged wands, Monks flurrying with Gauntlets, and Masterwork Tools of UMD come to mind.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I shall attack as soon as someone gives me the text of Heroes of Battle wherein they describe dive bombing.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Hold on, I might be able to attack.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

I shall attack as soon as someone gives me the text of Heroes of Battle wherein they describe dive bombing.

Rules for Bombardment:

Dropped weapons have a range increment of 50 ft. From altitudes higher than 2502 ft, objects dropped are always indirect hits.

Attack Rolls: Ranged attack roll against AC 5 to hit a square directly, applying range increment penalties as normal and a -4 for using an improvised weapon. Also an additional penalty for average or lesser maneuverability. Average = -2. Poor = -4. Clumsy = -6. Missed attacks hit a nearby square; same as missed thrown weapons on page 158.

Damage: Damage is based on weight and distance. See DMG 303. Creatures can avoid the damage from hte attack with a DC 15 Reflex save.

Dive Bombing: +2 bonus to hit. Length of the dive is added to the distance of the object has fallen. Dive bombing is treated as a charge, giving -2 AC.

[Sir Giacomo]

Actually, the DM said to assume that Psychic Reformation was cast on the bat at some point.

Oh, I did not know that (not written in your animal companion descriptions). Also, strictly speaking, the psionic rules are non-core and not listed among npc castings available (and not part of the original balance created by the PHB, DMG and MM which is my whole point, but well...).


Gauntlets reslotted to the belt slot. Custom made Gloves for the bat.

OK, more deviations from the original rules setting (custom items). But OK I guess (as I said)


In addition, the words partially charged wands, Monks flurrying with Gauntlets, and Masterwork Tools of UMD come to mind.

Which are, contrary to the stuff for your animal companion, entirely core RAW (excepting flurrying with gauntlets which I never supported, but admit that a case could be made for it).
But that has been debated elsewhere and has no place here.

[Sir Giacomo]

Rules for Bombardment:

Dropped weapons have a range increment of 50 ft. From altitudes higher than 2502 ft, objects dropped are always indirect hits.

Attack Rolls: Ranged attack roll against AC 5 to hit a square directly, applying range increment penalties as normal and a -4 for using an improvised weapon. Also an additional penalty for average or lesser maneuverability. Average = -2. Poor = -4. Clumsy = -6. Missed attacks hit a nearby square; same as missed thrown weapons on page 158.

Damage: Damage is based on weight and distance. See DMG 303. Creatures can avoid the damage from hte attack with a DC 15 Reflex save.

Dive Bombing: +2 bonus to hit. Length of the dive is added to the distance of the object has fallen. Dive bombing is treated as a charge, giving -2 AC.

Good and interesting stuff, but unfortunately not core rules.
:smallsmile:

Edit/core rules: the bat can try to drop the stone and will have to hit the AC normally (plus range increments for thrown stones penalties apply, and a -4 for being non-proficient with throwing stones as per animal description)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Oh, I did not know that (not written in your animal companion descriptions). Also, strictly speaking, the psionic rules are non-core and not listed among npc castings available (and not part of the original balance created by the PHB, DMG and MM which is my whole point, but well...).
He also said that I could think of it as the bat being trained for war from birth. Either or.

[Sir Giacomo]

He also said that I could think of it as the bat being trained for war from birth. Either or.

Tricky, but I guess covered by handle animal (training) skill.

Edit: just read that this is not covered by the handle animal skill. So it's a DM call (houserule)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Thanks for the rules. Giacomo, if you have a problem with Heroes of Battle, would you prefer the DM make up rules for Dive Bombing? I'm fine with that too.

[Sir Giacomo]

Thanks for the rules. Giacomo, if you have a problem with Heroes of Battle, would you prefer the DM make up rules for Dive Bombing? I'm fine with that too.

Oh, he does not need to make up any.
Core rules for throwing/dropping stones exist (see my edit above)

Edit: will go to bed now. Looking forward to what the bat is up to now ...

[Doc Roc]

That's fine, but we'll be using the rules for falling objects for damage.

[Sir Giacomo]

That's fine, but we'll be using the rules for falling objects for damage.

*on way to brush teeth*

Hm. Falling damage, but hitting chances of throwing a rock? That may be the solution closest to RAW that I see.
Could make the fighter even more powerful when built in a similar way.
Overall I am not happy with applying falling damage to combat rules (they are not part of the combat rules).

We're sort of getting further and further away from the core setting here, guys. I thought animal companions were so powerful - why do you need all this stuff then?:smallsmile:

Good night, anyhow.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Overall I am not happy with applying falling damage to combat rules (they are not part of the combat rules).Are you seriously saying that people cannot drop rocks on each other?


I thought animal companions were so powerful - why do you need all this stuff then?
It is core, is it not? Then it should be ok and balanced.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Move up 20 feet to 140 feet, make an Attack Roll for a 5 lb rock: [roll0]

[Pharaoh's Fist]

As it leaves my claws, the rock's weight multiplies by 8 as it leaves the effect of Reduce Animal.

40 lb rock coming your way. Reflex save DC 15 to avoid.

Falling damage rules (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm) state that a 40 lb rock deals 3d6 damage from 120 feet up.

[Sir Giacomo]

I am not saying that people in core cannot drop rocks on each other, only that you need an attack roll to do it -which you have done.
However, your modifier appears to be too high (+16).
You have +13 from the bat which uses its DEX to drop the rock in a timely manner. +1 from higher ground. Then you get -20 for the range (10ft increment for thrown rocks, actually it is out of range, since the max range is 10 increments), -4 for improvised weapon. For a Total of -10 to the roll.
I do not think a reflex save is necessary.

You miss the dwarf's current AC of 21.

But maybe we can continue to discuss tonight. (have to go off to work now). You may wish to reconsider the whole rock strategy since I guess it is quite hard for an animal to hit people with stones from 120ft away.:smallwink:

[PhoenixRivers]

Rules Debate Commentary:
Ok, here's what I see.

Sir Giacomo (good day, sir) contends that Heroes of Battle rules are non core, which establish 50 foot range increment for aerial bombardment, and cannot be used. I suppose this is a valid argument, although I think the rules are quite reasonable (attack the square, treat weapon as improvised, deal damage per the falling object rules in the DMG, allow a DC 15 reflex save to negate), and deal with a vague subject in the core rules (which are ill-suited to aerial maneuvers).

This means we fall back on the following (SRD, or DMG, p.303):
Falling Objects

Just as characters take damage when they fall more than 10 feet, so too do they take damage when they are hit by falling objects.

Objects that fall upon characters deal damage based on their weight and the distance they have fallen.

For each 200 pounds of an object’s weight, the object deals 1d6 points of damage, provided it falls at least 10 feet. Distance also comes into play, adding an additional 1d6 points of damage for every 10-foot increment it falls beyond the first (to a maximum of 20d6 points of damage).

Objects smaller than 200 pounds also deal damage when dropped, but they must fall farther to deal the same damage. Use Table: Damage from Falling Objects to see how far an object of a given weight must drop to deal 1d6 points of damage.

For each additional increment an object falls, it deals an additional 1d6 points of damage.

Objects weighing less than 1 pound do not deal damage to those they land upon, no matter how far they have fallen.

The objects in question are 40 pounds during the fall period. This means, by the table presented (Referenced here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/environment.htm#fallingObjects)) that its increment is 40 feet.

However, by this, it deals with falling objects as an environmental hazard, not as an attack. whether aimed or launched, if dropped in a square, an object becomes a falling object. Regardless of range dropped.

Either it should be an attack, with an increment of 40 feet, improvised weapons, and damage per the DMG/SRD table...

or it is a falling object, and several stones from the bag bag can be dropped as a free action in the square. In this instance, the best guidelines are in the DMG traps section. Closest parallel I could think of would be when a character falls into a pit trap with multiple spikes. 1d4 attacks, at a +10 bonus, no ranged increment. Damage would be per the DMG falling objects guideline.

(On a side note, Sir Giacomo, the maximum range increment for a thrown object is 5 increments, not 10. However, by the SRD rules for objects which fall from great distances, they are falling, not thrown.

By your method, no falling object would be able to hit from a distance greater than 50 feet. This is explicitly contradicted by the table which states that objects weighing 10 pounds or less must fall over 50 feet to even deal damage. By acknowledging that, the SRD states that objects which fall over 50 feet may hit and deal damage. So the 10 foot range increment concept cannot be correct.)



Overall I am not happy with applying falling damage to combat rules (they are not part of the combat rules).
But they don't exist in a vacuum, either. If a fire giant grapples you, and throws you into lava, should you be exempt from lava damage, because it's not in the combat section? If players can use/create environmental hazards, more power to them. If that's possible, then it's using the capabilities of the character.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I am not saying that people in core cannot drop rocks on each other, only that you need an attack roll to do it -which you have done.
However, your modifier appears to be too high (+16).

Giacomo, the attack modifier is +14, which does seem to be off by 1, as +6 from BAB, +7 from Dex is 13. My mistake. That's an attack roll of 29. I'll accept a -4 for improvised weapons (unless you will accept a Druid Stone Shaping 40 lb throwing rocks as acceptable), which leaves me with an attack roll of 25. Range increments... are being debated currently.

I was aiming for your square of AC 5 at any rate, which would force a reflex save to avoid, I believe.

[Sir Giacomo]

Hmmm.

Some other but related issues - but truth to tell, I think this thread revealed to me already why we have such different perceptions about animal companions.

1. I see core rules as PHB/DMG/MM. You seem more inclined to also include psionic rules (part of SRD, but hey - SRD is also full of unearthed arcana stuff). In any case this not what I meant by balanced core rules (in fact, I hardly know the psionic rules.)
This is relevant for the psychic reformation thing that you see as a good way to take better feats for the animals than normal for their kind (the restriction found in the PHB animal companion description).
The alternative way you mentioned that the animal companion received a war training is a houserule since it is not covered by the animal training skill (in fact, the training for war dog and war horses iirc only refer to certain aspects of the ride skill and how much effort you need to control a mount while riding).
So I imo a while customising feats and skills for the animal companion are good ideas for a campaign (and also are a good way to reflect different background stories), they should not be used to illustrate how imbalanced things are (or basically a fighter player could be a prince and be given by the DM followers outside the leadership feat).

2. Having said that, I have discovered that you boosted the grapple capabilities of the large and strong animal companions with the feat improved grapple (and the improved strike prereq).
So basically you turn tigers into kung fu tigers:smallsmile:. While animals meet the prereqs RAW (funnily enough, since they do not have unarmed strikes) I do not think whether DMs would choose it for animals at all.
The point is that whatever feats and skills an animal companion gains through advancing is up to the DM (like saying what animal companions are available due to the surrounding like aquatic areas).
An animal companion is an npc and run by the DM by the RAW. It is only through convenience that the animal companion is played by the player. But it is up to the DM what an animal thinks the best feats and skills would be (and would a bear choose to train humanoid improved grapple moves when it has improved grab?).

3. The animal companions with large/huge size, very high STR and improved grapple would indeed be among the mightiest grapplers already at mid-levels (in particular when polymorph at those levels is banned, i.e. another deviation from the core rules).
Do not get me wrong - fighters would still be completely superior. But the fighter builds would be focused on the best possible only - spiked chain/reach melee and highly mobile archer (both possibly mounted). I thought a high-AC sword&board fighter would also be able to show already how fighters are more powerful but the only thing in melee vs strong grapplers they can force with a tower shield is a draw for a while (since they can stop all attacks; until the shield is sundered).
An example in point is that even non-optimised for ranged fighting, like any hunter with the best of the ranged weapons at his disposal, this 8th level dwarf fighter will simply fly up (on the griffon) and shoot down all animal companions thrown at him. It would only take him longer.

Just saying.
You may wish to continue with this.
But I'd rather move on with a different build to do a duel of an 8th level fighter vs an 8th level druid. Your choice as to whether polymorph and wild shape are in or out.
And I'd also prefer an animal companion normal for its kind as per PHB. But if you insist it can be also done your way.

- Giacomo

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I see core rules as PHB/DMG/MM. You seem more inclined to also include psionic rules (part of SRD, but hey - SRD is also full of unearthed arcana stuff). In any case this not what I meant by balanced core rules (in fact, I hardly know the psionic rules.)

I am inclined to follow directions as set by the DM.

Having said that, I have discovered that you boosted the grapple capabilities of the large and strong animal companions with the feat improved grapple (and the improved strike prereq).
So basically you turn tigers into kung fu tigers. While animals meet the prereqs RAW (funnily enough, since they do not have unarmed strikes) I do not think whether DMs would choose it for animals at all.
This DM does.


The point is that whatever feats and skills an animal companion gains through advancing is up to the DM (like saying what animal companions are available due to the surrounding like aquatic areas).
An animal companion is an npc and run by the DM by the RAW. It is only through convenience that the animal companion is played by the player. But it is up to the DM what an animal thinks the best feats and skills would be (and would a bear choose to train humanoid improved grapple moves when it has improved grab?).
Citation needed.


The animal companions with large/huge size, very high STR and improved grapple would indeed be among the mightiest grapplers already at mid-levels (in particular when polymorph at those levels is banned, i.e. another deviation from the core rules).
You wouldn't have it anyways. It's not an hours long buff.



An example in point is that even non-optimised for ranged fighting, like any hunter with the best of the ranged weapons at his disposal, this 8th level dwarf fighter will simply fly up (on the griffon) and shoot down all animal companions thrown at him. It would only take him longer.
How is your fighter flying? Fly is not an hours long buff, and Overland Flight is one level away.

[Sir Giacomo]

Concerning this...


Giacomo, the attack modifier is +14, which does seem to be off by 1, as +6 from BAB, +7 from Dex is 13. My mistake. That's an attack roll of 29. I'll accept a -4 for improvised weapons (unless you will accept a Druid Stone Shaping 40 lb throwing rocks as acceptable), which leaves me with an attack roll of 25. Range increments... are being debated currently.

I was aiming for your square of AC 5 at any rate, which would force a reflex save to avoid, I believe.

Again, you are using non-core rules in this core comparison. In core, when you wish to hit someone with something, you need an attack roll vs his AC (exception: ray and area attacks, as well as targeted spells. Thrown rocks are neither).
Also, rocks are either improvised weapons or they may the best shaped stones in the world (in fact throwing stones are not listed as weapons in the equipment section)- animals would still be non-proficient with them and thus have a -4 penalty.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Concerning this...



Again, you are using non-core rules in this core comparison. In core, when you wish to hit someone with something, you need an attack roll vs his AC (exception: ray and area attacks, as well as targeted spells. Thrown rocks are neither).
Also, rocks are either improvised weapons or they may the best shaped stones in the world (in fact throwing stones are not listed as weapons in the equipment section)

Swordbreakers aren't listed in the Weapons section either. Guess you take a -4 penalty when using one.


- animals would still be non-proficient with them and thus have a -4 penalty.
Are monks proficient with unarmed strikes?

[Doc Roc]

I actually have never met a GM who ran animal companions as NPCs. I understand your consternation, and we'll be doing multiple trials. I think we should finish this fight, then continue to the next one. Please take the argument to the OOC thread. :| I am the GM here, and I do admit I should have been more cautious in what I allowed. I'm a little frustrated that we couldn't put aside the differences in our interpretations for long enough to drop rocks on each other.


The rocks will be handled as such:

Drop one each per standard action.
Roll to hit.
Damage as per a falling object.
Falling object rules do not give a range increment. Thus, there is no range increment for these suckers, as they are being dropped, not thrown or launched. This, as Phoenix suggests, is the closest guidance that core offers us in such a situation.

I'm going to gently reiterate that this is the final decision, and argument will get you basically nowhere. If you want to buy a griffon or similar, and go bat-hunting next round, I will permit it, Gia. However, you will need to find a way to get a flying mount in core, which is quite difficult and very expensive.


Please finish the round. Debate should be conducted in the OOC thread. My rulings are final.

[Sir Giacomo]

I am inclined to follow directions as set by the DM.

But I am also part of this game. If we agreed before to use core but then disagree on what that is the whole thing will not help us to settle an argument, will it?:smallsmile:


This DM does.

See above.


Citation needed.

Unfortunately I do not have my PHB and DMG with me right here - will look it up during weekend (it is not part of the SRD I think).
It's the basic principle of D&D that the players run their characters and the DM runs everything else. (While there are many groups where players run several characters at the same time I do not think this is the norm.)
Players using the leadership feat likewise do not get to cherry pick everything for their character by the RAW - it's the DM who does it.

- Giacomo

[PhoenixRivers]

On Animals and Feats:


1. I see core rules as PHB/DMG/MM. You seem more inclined to also include psionic rules (part of SRD, but hey - SRD is also full of unearthed arcana stuff). In any case this not what I meant by balanced core rules (in fact, I hardly know the psionic rules.)
This is relevant for the psychic reformation thing that you see as a good way to take better feats for the animals than normal for their kind (the restriction found in the PHB animal companion description).
The alternative way you mentioned that the animal companion received a war training is a houserule since it is not covered by the animal training skill (in fact, the training for war dog and war horses iirc only refer to certain aspects of the ride skill and how much effort you need to control a mount while riding).
So I imo a while customising feats and skills for the animal companion are good ideas for a campaign (and also are a good way to reflect different background stories), they should not be used to illustrate how imbalanced things are (or basically a fighter player could be a prince and be given by the DM followers outside the leadership feat).
There seems to be a misconception on feat assignment.

SRD Entry, monster feats:Feats

The line gives the creature’s feats. A monster gains feats just as a character does. Sometimes a creature has one or more bonus feats, marked with a superscript B (B). Creatures often do not have the prerequisites for a bonus feat. If this is so, the creature can still use the feat. If you wish to customize the creature with new feats, you can reassign its other feats, but not its bonus feats. A creature cannot have a feat that is not a bonus feat unless it has the feat’s prerequisites.
This shows that not all animals have the same feats. Those listed are the most common, but not the only allowed. As the druid is the one who chooses the companion, it makes sense that he could seek out one that had those feats already. As a Dire bat has no bonus feats, any of its feats may be altered to customize the creature.



2. Having said that, I have discovered that you boosted the grapple capabilities of the large and strong animal companions with the feat improved grapple (and the improved strike prereq).
So basically you turn tigers into kung fu tigers:smallsmile:. While animals meet the prereqs RAW (funnily enough, since they do not have unarmed strikes) I do not think whether DMs would choose it for animals at all.
The point is that whatever feats and skills an animal companion gains through advancing is up to the DM (like saying what animal companions are available due to the surrounding like aquatic areas).
An animal companion is an npc and run by the DM by the RAW. It is only through convenience that the animal companion is played by the player. But it is up to the DM what an animal thinks the best feats and skills would be (and would a bear choose to train humanoid improved grapple moves when it has improved grab?).Ran by the DM, chosen by the player. Again, the listings in the MM are typical. The SRD explicitly allows for feat customization. Also, any creature has unarmed strikes. All they must do is choose to forego natural attacks. A bear can headbutt, just as anything else can. As for the other points? The RP/logic portions of your argument are not addressed by the SRD. However, many animals go to great lengths to please their humans. It's very much a symbiotic relationship.



And I'd also prefer an animal companion normal for its kind as per PHB. But if you insist it can be also done your way.
A typical animal can have its feats reassigned, per the "Reading the Entries" section of the MM/SRD. Thus, an animal that's typical for its kind can have different feats than are listed in the stat entries, provided no bonus feats are changed.

[Sir Giacomo]

Swordbreakers aren't listed in the Weapons section either. Guess you take a -4 penalty when using one.

Swordbreaker? Core? Where is that weapon?


Are monks proficient with unarmed strikes?

Ah, an old classic. Since the monk unarmed strike attack bonus table includes no -4 penalty, there apparently is either 1) no proficiency for unarmed attacks/strikes at all or 2) the monk has no such penalty (specific class table trumps general weapon table) or 3) the monk is proficient with natural attacks like all creatures and thanks to his class ability (to have all natural attack effects also affect unarmed strike) has no problems.


I actually have never met a GM who ran animal companions as NPCs.

The way Saph currently runs it in the monkening ToS illustrates that an animal companion is not the same as a player character.
My experience is that USUALLY familiars and animal companions are run for routine stuff by the player. But at critical moments the DM takes over to keep things "neutral". For instance, druid players running their animal companions all the time could get used to simply "forget" to roll for "pushing animal" handle animal checks in extreme situations not covered by tricks.
They are not an attack-generating extension for a character, they are an npc that need to be played with their own character (and this is hard to do for a player all the time).


I understand your consternation, and we'll be doing multiple trials. I think we should finish this fight, then continue to the next one. Please take the argument to the OOC thread. :| I am the GM here, and I do admit I should have been more cautious in what I allowed. I'm a little frustrated that we couldn't put aside the differences in our interpretations for long enough to drop rocks on each other.

OK, let's move on with what you decide for now.
Maybe it will lead to some new insights.


The rocks will be handled as such:

Drop one each per standard action.
Roll to hit.
Damage as per a falling object.
Falling object rules do not give a range increment. Thus, there is no range increment for these suckers, as they are being dropped, not thrown or launched. This, as Phoenix suggests, is the closest guidance that core offers us in such a situation.

I'm going to gently reiterate that this is the final decision, and argument will get you basically nowhere. If you want to buy a griffon or similar, and go bat-hunting next round, I will permit it, Gia. However, you will need to find a way to get a flying mount in core, which is quite difficult and very expensive.

Please finish the round. Debate should be conducted in the OOC thread. My rulings are final.

OK. Fighter is hit. Takes 3d6 damage.
And note that the fighter already has a flying mount (though not yet visible :smallwink:)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Damage: [roll0]

Ok, your turn again.

[Doc Roc]

Please take the debate to the OOC thread.

[Sir Giacomo]

(assumes that fighter survives the 3d6 damage)

Round 3 actions of the fighter:

Ready shield again, using as total cover. Sheathing bow.

End of turn.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Sheath bow: Move action.

Pick up shield: move action

Put on shield: Move/standard action (not sure which one)

Am I missing something?

[Sir Giacomo]

Yes, you do. The shield was loosed, not dropped to the ground.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Giacomo, you had better check the OOC thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124191) for my questions about that.

Namely

Yes, you do. The shield was loosed, not dropped to the ground.



ALTERNATIVE ROUND 1 Fighter Action
Instead, lose shield, quickdraw longbow, and shoot..

I thought you dropped the shield.

In addition, you may want to read this:


Shield, Tower (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/armor.htm)
This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as you are. In most situations, it provides the indicated shield bonus to your AC. However, you can instead use it as total cover, though you must give up your attacks to do so. The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else.

Please address in OOC thread.

[Sir Giacomo]

Edit: moved to ooc thread.

But again it does not matter. To move things on:

Corrected round 3 actions of fighter:
Picking up shield/readying shield with two move actions. Shield set to total cover.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Bow dropped on the ground, I suppose?

[Sir Giacomo]

No. Why should the fighter do this?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

When loosing the shield (i.e. pushing it on your back) with a move action you have your hands free.


You said "lose" the shield, not "loose" the shield.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Ok, so your round 3 action is to

1. Pick up the shield you dropped (Move)
2. Use it for total cover (move action)
3. Holding your Longbow in your other hand

Is this correct? Have I forgotten anything?

[Sir Giacomo]

yes, this is correct.
It's the bat's turn.


You said "lose" the shield, not "loose" the shield.

Sorry, my mistake.

[Doc Roc]

If there's another rules debate in this thread, I'll be calling for a lock. Please, please, for the sake of our viewers, keep it to the OOC.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Ready an action to drop a rock on you when you put aside the shield.

End turn.

(If you keep under cover for more than 2 rounds, I'm going to do something else.)

[Sir Giacomo]

Round 4 fighter action:

Sheathe bow (move eq.)
Draw figurine of wondrous power (move eq.)

End of turn.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

The bat keeps circling.

End turn.

[Sir Giacomo]

(bat still readies action)

Round 5 fighter actions

Activate Figurine of Wondrous Power (standard action). A griffon appears (without saddle yet, that is carried by dwarf).
The dwarf mounts (move eq. action)
He orders the mount to fly away at 4x move (or 320ft, using 40ft of movement to fly up to get 20ft up) to end up about 280ft away.

edit: note that the shield is still used for total cover

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I move 160 feet in your direction, horizontally.

[Sir Giacomo]

Round 6 fighter actions:
Uses his move action to loose shield; quickdraws bow.
Dwarf orders griffon to fly up 4x speed in 45 degree by 80ft to a height of 100ft, again away from bat (horizontal distance to bat now: 200ft)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Move up 40 feet. Height of 160 feet.

[Sir Giacomo]

Round 7 fighter actions

Bat is at 160ft. Griffon at 100ft. Horizontally 200ft away.

Dwarf orders Griffon to fly at 2x speed up another 60ft (using up 120ft of movement) and closing in to about 160ft.

Edit: hp at 63/72

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Move up 35 feet, move away from Giacomo 10 feet, end turn.

[Sir Giacomo]

Round 8 fighter actions

Dwarf order: Griffon also moves up to 195 ft at 2x move (using 70ft to do so). Closes in to 100ft.

Edit: do we really need this to continue? The bat has lost. Starting round 9 the bow attacks start and it cannot fight back.
Will go to bed now.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Heads up, there are some questions for you in the OOC thread.

Bat moves up 40 feet. Altitude of 235 feet.

[Sir Giacomo]

OK, one more for tonight here:
Round 9 fighter actions

Dwarf orders griffon to double move also up to 235ft alt, keeping the 100ft horizontal distance. In mid-movement he remains within the 110ft range increment (by moving a bit closer to bat first, then to the 100ft horizontal distance).
-4 for mounted archery at 2x flying move.

[roll0]
[roll1]

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Giacomo, please look at the OOC thread now. I cannot debate rules here, but you have violated RAW twice by now.

Anyways, you do not hit and I move up 10 feet and close in by 60 feet.

[Sir Giacomo]

*brushes teeth*

Round 10 actions of fighter:

Dwarf orders Griffon to keep same altitude as bat (245ft) and keep the 100ft distance.

Again, attack at -4 with composite longbow (bow henceforth for convenience)

[roll0]
[roll1]

I guess 36 arrows are left.

Edit: of these 36 arrows around 7 are likely to hit, meaning 7d8+35 damage. Should we really continue?
I think it makes no sense.
Think on it while I sleep :smallsmile: Good night!

[Pharaoh's Fist]

If you wish to concede, I will accept.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Here's why we shouldn't run things by probability:

The bat has +7 initiative modifier to your +5. This means of the next 6 matches, he will win slightly more than half.

If he wins, his first action can be to drop 35 40 lb rocks on you. The AC he needs to hit with his +9 attack bonus is 21, so he his on a 12 or higher. He kills you outright slightly less than half the time.

If you get to go first, you mount your gryphon. Congradulations. On the bat's turn, rocks fall and you die.

Well, let's call it a night then. I win about half and you win about half. Entire contest over. We've concluded in one single post that the Fighter is roughly tied with AC for effectiveness.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

The bat will hover and use a Total Defense action for AC 26.

[Sir Giacomo]

Please, Pharao's fist.

You can with a bat only do one attack per round, not 35.

And even if somehow a non-core mechanism that supports your idea can be found somewhere, how often will the bat be able to climb to the altitude necessary AND drop all the rocks?
Plus, you forget that the fighter can easily enter combat (as he did this one) with the tower shield up set to total cover. No line of effect, sorry.

I do not think that me posting another 36 rounds of fighter action will change that. Especially not when a fighter easily for 1 gp/20 arrows could take usually much longer to run out of ammunition.

To the DM/Tidesinger: what do you say?


Again, @Pharao's fist: Admit that you have been wrong on this "animal companion beats fighter in core" thing.
How much even abstracting from non-core rules are you dependent on a DM allowing you to train the animal in such a way, i.e. depend on houseruling?
Even with psychic reformation and all the unusual gadgets that you came up with, the fact remains that with access to command word items, superior weapons and better feats the fighter illustrates nicely why our planet is being dominated by humans, and not bears or bats :smallbiggrin:

But I'm ready to do a fighter vs druid duel (choose the level, but we can remain at 8 if you like). But this time please:
- really only core rules (PHB/DMG/MM, no psionics and animals throwing 35 rocks per round)
- the animal companion is TYPICAL for its kind as per core animal companion class description.
- I'll concede that you can put customised, humanoid-only items on the animal companion if you so desire (although I am sure the DMG for those items' compatibility only refers to size, not type of creature).

- Giacomo

[Pharaoh's Fist]

You can with a bat only do one attack per round, not 35.
I can drop a sack on you. With, you know, rocks in it.


And even if somehow a non-core mechanism that supports your idea can be found somewhere, how often will the bat be able to climb to the altitude necessary AND drop all the rocks?
It really only needs to be about 20 feet above you.



Plus, you forget that the fighter can easily enter combat (as he did this one) with the tower shield up set to total cover. No line of effect, sorry.
I wasn't aware tower shields protected you from what is effectively artillery.


I do not think that me posting another 36 rounds of fighter action will change that. Especially not when a fighter easily for 1 gp/20 arrows could take usually much longer to run out of ammunition.

Again, if you want to quit, I will happily accept your surrender.

But you do know that your character does have weaknesses that can be used against you even at this stage, so you can't declare a victory just yet?


Again, @Pharao's fist: Admit that you have been wrong on this "animal companion beats fighter in core" thing.
A little less condescension helps in getting people to do what you want them to do.

The funny thing is, with all your complaining about my feats... I haven't used any of them in combat yet, nor do I have to with my method of attack. Everything I did, I could have done with a stock bat. Funny thing, ain't it?

How much even abstracting from non-core rules are you dependent on a DM allowing you to train the animal in such a way, i.e. depend on houseruling?
Masterwork Tools of UMD. Magic Marts with partially charged wands that have the exact amount of charges desired.



Even with psychic reformation and all the unusual gadgets that you came up with, the fact remains that with access to command word items, superior weapons and better feats the fighter illustrates nicely why our planet is being dominated by humans, and not bears or bats :smallbiggrin:
So win the fight instead of asking me to concede just because you think that you have won. Play the game you agreed to play. Declaring "Mission Accomplished" before confirming a victory is a mistake.

Make your move.

[Doc Roc]

As this has devolved into pointless arguing, I'm calling for a thread lock. we'll try again with a somewhat different approval process for next time.

[PhoenixRivers]

On the fight in general:
I've ran the numbers, and the fight isn't a landslide for the fighter. There's a lot of room for tactics, and ability.

On the specific issue of dropped rocks:
The method to support falling rocks is outlined in core. If the bat gets above you, it can use a free action to drop a rock. It then becomes a falling object, and is dealt with by the falling objects section. There is no limit to rocks falling, and it's legally possible to drop 35 rocks as 35 free actions, in one round.

The method for determining accuracy would need to be GM adjudicated, but the closest thing I can think of is players falling on pit trap spikes for determining if a falling object hits a stationary one. Those rules indicate an attack with a +10 bonus.

Before saying the rock isn't attacking? Neither is the pit spike. It's an unguided falling object on a parabolic (ballistic) path and a stationary object, and those are the rules used in the DMG for adjudicating it. Total cover would apply from a shield, however, then the shield would take the damage from the object.

All of the above rules are directly from the PHb or DMG.

[Oslecamo]

I wasn't aware tower shields protected you from what is effectively artillery.


A minor nitpick, but raising tick shields above your heads was one of the basic rules for anyone trying to assault an enemy into a fortress, whereas the defenders would indeed drop "artillery" over you, in the form of, you guessed it, rocks. Lots and lots of rocks delivered trough several means that could easily kill even an helmeted man. A raisen shield would mean the diference between living to climb the wall or dying with your brains spilled on the ground.

The romans designed the infamous turtle formation precisely for this reason. They took a lot of barbarian fortresses since the wall of shields would allow them to aproach the tall walls under heavy "artillery" fire whitout needing cover in the way.

Untill gunpowder was created, wich pierced pretty much any man-portable armor, shields were always used to defend against "artillery", specially tower shields. Heck they have tower in their name for a reason, after all.

Of course, the shield isn't indestructible, but it does block line of effect, and untill it takes enough damage to breack it will protect the fighter from one angle of attack.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Indeed, but this is a sack of rocks weighing 1400 pounds total.

[Oslecamo]

Several rocks. Separate attacks. The shield has hardness. An adamantine shield would have hardness 20, and thus the rocks dealing 3d6 damage each can't even scratch it.

After all, just as there are bats able to fly with a ton and half of rocks in D&D there's also super hard metals:P

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Several rocks. Separate attacks.

I'm dropping the bag on him. Not dropping several rocks at him, dropping rocks in a bag on him. As in, tie closed a sack full of door knobs and drop it on someone 5 stories below. As in, I have a bag. It is full of rocks. I do not take the rocks out, I simply let go of the bag. The bag,w ti the rocks in it, falls on a target.

If a shield protects against that, then the next time a trap causes the ceiling to collapse, or a huge boulder to fall, we might as well whip out tower shields and declare our characters invincible.

[Whammydill]

Reduced rocks, 5lbs each x35.
Unreduced rocks 40lbs each x35.

Can you fit that many rocks in one bag? Nice tactic I think at any rate.

[Sir Giacomo]

As this has devolved into pointless arguing, I'm calling for a thread lock. we'll try again with a somewhat different approval process for next time.

Well, I have asked Pharao's Fist to give up and he declined.
I guess we'll have to continue the match since I have the feeling that he'll otherwise declare it undecided despite the imo obvious evidence.



Can you fit that many rocks in one bag? Nice tactic I think at any rate.

Yes, I also think it is nice - with the help of houseruling and/or non-core rules (which without any irony I as a DM may also allow. But then I'd also provide the fighter player with some houseruling in his favour).
But I'll henceforth comment on the duel only in the ooc thread.

Round 11 fighter actions

Bat hovers. Dwarf orders griffon fly at 1x speed up 40ft (new alt at 285), while keeping 100ft distance.
Attacks without penalty

[roll0]
[roll1]

35 arrows left. 63/72 hp

[Lycanthromancer]

{Scrubbed}

[Sir Giacomo]

{Scrubbed}

:smallbiggrin: This comes up time and again. And you'll notice that none of my builds include partially charged wands anymore (although explictly mentioned as part of the game in core RAW and recommended in the MiC).

Check out the ooc thread for what I have to say on houseruling and Pharao's Fist's animal companions.

- Giacomo

[kme]

If the bat drops rocks on you like that, can't you just ready an action to move away as soon as he drops them. After 35 rounds he will be out of rocks. And really, this whole tactic with dropping rocks has nothing to do with the animal companion, it's just an abuse of rules. If that bag can deal 105d6 damage(367 average) then it will one shot most things from MM. Just drop it while they aren't looking and kill them in surprise round.

[Roland St. Jude]

Sheriff of Moddingham: While the OP is not normally the master of the thread, PbP is one area where we do allow the DM to call it quits. Thread locked by request.