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TheCountAlucard
2009-09-07, 05:52 PM
So, I've been invited to play in a sixteenth-level D&D game, run by a friend of a friend. I asked the DM if I could play a halfling dread necromancer, and he's allowing me to do so. He also allowed me to take the Necropolitan template.

For ability scores, I got Str 13 (11 as a halfling), Dex 14 (16 as a halfling), Con 8 (Ø as a Necropolitan), Int 12, Wis 10, and Cha 18 (22 after ability increases from levels).

I found myself a little bit starved when it came to skill points, unfortunately. I was able to put a paltry handful of ranks into Bluff ("Necromancer? Not me, sirrah!"), Concentration (Don't want my spells fizzling), Knowledge: Arcana (Just plain nice to have), Knowledge: Religion (What kind of necromancer can't identify undead?), and Spellcraft (Counterspelling, of course).

For feats, I went with Profane Lifeleech (make some use of my rebuking), Extra Turning (although I might take something else, if need be), Weapon Finesse (makes those Charnel Touches a little easier), Corpsecrafter (Combine with Undead Mastery and Desecrate for souped-up minions), and Destruction Retribution (Zombie bombs!). I've still got one feat left to choose - any advice?

Still left with choosing some gear for myself, though. Again, looking for some advice with that - is it worth it to get an eternal wand of Undetectable Alignment? How much of my WBL should I devote to expensive components for undead creation? Would my cloak slot be better suited for boosting my Charisma, or my saving throws?

EDIT: Thought I'd mention, so far the rest of the party consists of a half-orc fighter/barbarian, and a human healer (spontaneous variant).

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-07, 07:51 PM
Life Sense, from LM, is awesome. Take it and never be surprised again.

MIC has better rules on combining magic items(and a bunch of great magic items in general), use it for a Cloak of Resistant Charisma.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-07, 08:06 PM
Can you get some Minor Schemas of Kiss of the Vampire for the fighter/barbarian? It might cause some friction if your exploding zombies blow him up.

PS. nevermind, SpC bumped that up to a 7th level spell and it has a material component anyway ... still, get something to protect your warrior friend from your exploding corpses.

Lycanthromancer
2009-09-07, 08:18 PM
What about Chain Spell? You could get a lot more bang for your necromantic buck if you can spend 1/16th the material cost for the number of undead you create...

[edit] Actually, I'm not sure this would work, due to the wording under the material component section...

Cieyrin
2009-09-08, 12:26 AM
On the cloak issue, I'd go for Charisma and just grab a Vest of Resistance. They made it for the discerning sorcerer, so take advantage of it. I don't think it's any more expensive, either, though I can't check myself. ^^;;

imperialspectre
2009-09-08, 01:30 AM
Runestaves (MIC), knowstones (Dragon), and drake helms (Explorer's Handbook) all expand your spells known. The first is "arcane spells only" (doesn't have to be on your spell list), I don't know about the 2nd, and the third can be any spell evar, off anybody's spell list.

You shouldn't be in melee, so don't worry about Weapon Finesse. If you have to do touch attacks, use Spectral Hand to deliver them.

Profane Lifeleech isn't so great, since you can Charnel Touch yourself to full health out of combat. Likewise, Extra Turning isn't great; if you need more turn attempts just use a Nightstick, a Reliquary Holy Symbol, or something else of that sort.

Getting rid of those three gives you a total of 4 feats left. I would suggest a useful metamagic (Chain Spell, for your ranged attack spells, or maybe Extend -> Persist), Divine Metamagic for that metamagic, and then Southern Magician (Races of Faerun) to let you count your arcane spell as divine (qualifies for DMM and Karma Bead) 1 time per 2 spellcaster levels each day.

If you don't want to go the DMM route, take as many Arcane Disciple feats as your (hopefully useful) deity has domains. That's another great way to expand your spells known. In that case, you could keep Profane Lifeleech because you have nothing else to do with your rebukes.

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-09-08, 01:32 AM
Definitely spellstitch yourself, check Complete Arcane page 161, and make Animate Dead one of your spell-like abilities. Now you can cast it multiple times/day without any costly material components, so free undead army for the one-time price of gaining a superb template. Your other spell-like abilities should include utility spells such as Benign Transpositon. You'll need to boost your Wisdom score considerably for this to work, I'd probably drop both Dex and Str a bit assuming pointbuy and go with venerable age, since undead are immune to penalties to their physical ability scores. If you can take regional feats from PGtF go with a gnome or other race that qualifies for Magic in the Blood (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Magic_in_the_Blood), all of your racial 1/day spell-like abilities become 3/day. Spellstitched is a template, everything it grants is racial, so split your spell-like ability uses to 3/1 or 1/1 and they all become 3/3.

Say your character was turned into a Necropolitan by another Dread Necromancer 8+ with Corpsecrafter, Nimble Bones, Hardened Flesh, and Bolster Resistance, in the area of a Desecrate with an evil altar present. That way your character gets a permanent +4 Str, +4 Dex, +4 initiative, +4 turn resistance, +2 natural armor, +10 ft. movement, and +6 HP/level. All of that is completely free, just include it in your character history, or just assume that this is the case and include the bonuses on your character sheet and only bring it up when questioned about it.

Your Advanced Learning spells should include Awaken Undead (Arrow Demon skeleton, Razorboar skeleton, Cave Troll skeleton, etc.) and possibly Revive Undead for your more important minions. Definitely get a Slaymate from Libris Mortis, when I last played a dread necro his slaymate was his own daughter....

See if you can substitute your martial weapon proficiency for improved unarmed strike. Take Ascetic Mage and wear a Monk's Belt to get your Cha bonus to AC when unarmored.

Be sure to check out the magic item sets in MIC, certain pieces of the Raiment of the Four will greatly expand your spell options for example. Other items to consider include a Mace of the Dark Children, maybe a Rod of Defiance, Ruby Blade if you worship Wee Jas or can UMD it, Reliquary Holy Symbol, Cloak of Turn Resistance, Circlet of Rapid Casting, Scepter of the Netherworld, and a Talisman of Undead Mastery, all from MIC.

TheCountAlucard
2009-09-08, 01:33 AM
On the cloak issue, I'd go for Charisma and just grab a Vest of Resistance. They made it for the discerning sorcerer, so take advantage of it. I don't think it's any more expensive, either, though I can't check myself.Luckily, the cost is exactly the same. Thanks for that. :smallsmile:


Definitely spellstitch yourself.I don't think I'll be able to, considering that there's no listing for LA in the template itself, which tends to indicate that it's off-limits for PCs. Second, I have to take Craft Wondrous Item in order to spellstitch myself, and I'll be getting that for free in three levels, so why buy it?


...assuming pointbuy...Nope, had to roll for ability scores.


Say your character was turned into a Necropolitan by another Dread Necromancer 8+ with Corpsecrafter, Nimble Bones, Hardened Flesh, and Bolster Resistance, in the area of a Desecrate with an evil altar present. That way your character gets a permanent +4 Str, +4 Dex, +4 initiative, +4 turn resistance, +2 natural armor, +10 ft. movement, and +6 HP/level. All of that is completely free, just include it in your character history, or just assume that this is the case and include the bonuses on your character sheet and only bring it up when questioned about it....but I don't want books thrown at me! :smalleek:

Biffoniacus_Furiou
2009-09-08, 01:56 AM
I don't think I'll be able to, considering that there's no listing for LA in the template itself, which tends to indicate that it's off-limits for PCs. Second, I have to take Craft Wondrous Item in order to spellstitch myself, and I'll be getting that for free in three levels, so why buy it?

There isn't a LA listing for it, but there is a gp/xp cost listing for it instead. Most templates you simply take at character creation paying the LA cost, but this one you gain at any point via the magic item crafting rules. Most templates with no LA listing are unavailable to PCs because they would be free, but this is clearly not the case with this one so it should not be prohibited as long as its costs are paid. Plus you can hire an NPC who has the proper feat to assist you, and you contribute everything else including the XP cost. Or just animate someone who has the feat an Awaken Undead them, or use Animate Dread Warrior from Unapproachable East on an Artificer or similarly built NPC and have it help you.

woodenbandman
2009-09-08, 08:35 AM
Improved Turning, Empower Turning, Fell Animate.

Lamech
2009-09-08, 08:54 AM
Hey see if you can count as making your self the necropltalin. Then you can stack corspecrafter, desecrate, and the dread necro special on your self. For a grand total of +4 enhancment to strength, dex, and +6 hit points per hit die. At the very least make sure to get a desecrate when you were undeadified. Thats all I got...

Myrmex
2009-09-08, 12:51 PM
Question: at level 16, is weapon finesse really necessary? Do you plan to be in melee combat a lot? I know there are gish builds out there for DNs, but you don't appear to be using one.

Keld Denar
2009-09-08, 03:07 PM
with venerable age, since undead are immune to penalties to their physical ability scores.

Citation?



Traits
An undead creature possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry).

•No Constitution score.
•Darkvision out to 60 feet.
•Immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects).
•Immunity to poison, sleep effects, paralysis, stunning, disease, and death effects.
•Not subject to critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, or energy drain. Immune to damage to its physical ability scores (Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution), as well as to fatigue and exhaustion effects.
•Cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed. Negative energy (such as an inflict spell) can heal undead creatures. The fast healing special quality works regardless of the creature’s Intelligence score.
•Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).
•Uses its Charisma modifier for Concentration checks.
•Not at risk of death from massive damage, but when reduced to 0 hit points or less, it is immediately destroyed.
•Not affected by raise dead and reincarnate spells or abilities. Resurrection and true resurrection can affect undead creatures. These spells turn undead creatures back into the living creatures they were before becoming undead.
•Proficient with its natural weapons, all simple weapons, and any weapons mentioned in its entry.
•Proficient with whatever type of armor (light, medium, or heavy) it is described as wearing, as well as all lighter types. Undead not indicated as wearing armor are not proficient with armor. Undead are proficient with shields if they are proficient with any form of armor.
•Undead do not breathe, eat, or sleep.


Aging penalites are not damage. Neither is the effect of Ray of Enfeeblement. Both are penalties that affect undead just the same as anyone else, unless you can find some other rule that supercedes the MM.

TheCountAlucard
2009-09-08, 06:25 PM
Do you plan to be in melee combat a lot?Not really. :smalleek:

I rarely get to play an RPG without GMing it, and those have never been high-level games; I do believe I got my Twi'lek Crime Lord in SWSE to 11th level before the game died.

Also, some news: the DM is allowing Spellstitched.

Lamech
2009-09-08, 06:44 PM
Citation?



Aging penalites are not damage. Neither is the effect of Ray of Enfeeblement. Both are penalties that affect undead just the same as anyone else, unless you can find some other rule that supercedes the MM.

Aging and interactions with magic is handled really poorly in DnD. See reincarnate for example. What happens to your aging penalties. Anyway, I would expect your DM to either reset both bonuses and penalties to 0. Or keep them at the day you died. It still may be a good choice.

KillianHawkeye
2009-09-09, 10:03 PM
Fell Animate

A trick I was going to use with my own DN (before he got killed) was to identify downed enemies who were at negative hp and use Fell Animate inflict moderate wounds or similar to cheaply animate them.

Tshern
2009-09-10, 08:23 AM
Remove Weapon finesse, Charnel touch is a crappy attack mode at those levels. Use it for healing, not offense.

Corpsecrafter is quite redundant, but not the worst pick at all. Fell animate, as someone mentioned, is golden though.

Make sure to take Fiend Folio's gift to all Dread Necromancers, a Ghostly visage familiar. Make sure to change one of its feats to Ability focus to boost the paralysis DC.

Split ray is awesome for Enervations.

Cieyrin
2009-09-10, 01:42 PM
Fell Animate

A trick I was going to use with my own DN (before he got killed) was to identify downed enemies who were at negative hp and use Fell Animate inflict moderate wounds or similar to cheaply animate them.

Inflict Moderate Wounds is a little overkill if you're only using it on negative hitpoint critters. Inflict Light Wounds does enough damage, plus, do you really need the higher plus ceiling if you're just trying to kill things that are already dying?

KillianHawkeye
2009-09-10, 03:13 PM
Inflict Moderate Wounds is a little overkill if you're only using it on negative hitpoint critters. Inflict Light Wounds does enough damage, plus, do you really need the higher plus ceiling if you're just trying to kill things that are already dying?

It's for the extra guarantee. 1d8+5 is not always gonna kill somebody at -1 hp. If you think it's worth the chance to use a level 4 slot instead of a level 5 one, then by all means use ILW instead.

Or if you have a means of seeing someone's exact hp value, then you can make a more informed decision on the spot. My way assumes the target is down but that you'd rather go for the surefire animate than risk letting them bleed to death while you make up your mind, or to use the spell and not kill them because you rolled low and then have them bleed to death.

Of course, picking up Sudden Maximize would be another means of solving the problem, but I didn't suggest it because the OP didn't seem to have enough free feats.

TheCountAlucard
2009-09-10, 04:35 PM
Re-did my feats. I decided to drop Weapon Finesse after all (the touch attacks are easy enough to make consistently). I went with Craft Contingent Spell, Split Ray, Corpsecrafter, Destruction Retribution, and Nimble Bones. Again, I'm undecided on my last feat - I'd really like a way to get my hands on Desecrate without taking Arcane Disciple. I don't think it'd be worth it to take Extra Spell. :smalleek:

A few more things...

1) Any recommendations for my four Advanced Learning spells? Revive Undead is an obvious choice (especially when paired with Craft Contingent Spell!).

2) I've got a good chunk of my equipment worked out, but there's still a few things... Would a ring of freedom of movement be worth it, in case of emergency and whatnot, or would the 40k be better off spent on something else?

3) So, I was talking about my character with the GM, not realizing that the guy next to him was one of the other players. Upon noticing the "CE" at the top of my sheet, the player said, "Ooh, I'm going to play a paladin!" :smalleek:

Surprisingly, the GM didn't say anything for it or against it. Hopefully the player was just kidding, but just in case, any advice? (Already bought the eternal wand of undetectable alignment.)

KillianHawkeye
2009-09-10, 06:10 PM
I doubt you need a wand for undetectable alignment. You're 16th level? Yeah, you can spare a level 1 spell slot every day to just cast it yourself. Other than that, just keep the Evil under the table so the paladin doesn't find out about it. If you don't detect as Evil and don't act too Evil around him, there's basically nothing he can do without metagaming. The only thing to watch out for is your undetectable alignment being dispelled.

TheCountAlucard
2009-09-11, 12:30 AM
Wow... so, just for the heck of it, I asked the GM about whether my character could benefit from having been made a Necropolitan by another Dread Necromancer with Undead Mastery with a desecrated altar to an evil god nearby. I was pretty surprised when he allowed it. :smallamused:

Keld Denar
2009-09-11, 01:57 AM
Thats why you don't Fell Animate your Inflict spells at all. Fell Animate a Death Knell! Chances are, save or no, they'll fail it, especially if you have a Death Watch running that basically allows you to cheat and "see" enemies HP. That way, you get a zombie, some temp Str, a juicy temp CL, and some other misc benefits. Its fun for the whole family (well, maybe not).

Also, while a FoM Ring is AWESOME, I think for most characters, you are just as well served by 2-3 pairs of Anlets of Translocation. I mean, unless your DM is using TONS of dimension screw spells like Dim Anchor and Anticipate Teleport and AMF, generally you won't be denied doing it. Even then, your DM would have to include a lot of big grapply monsters inside of such an area...often...to make it really worth it. Not so much. Anklets are 1.4k each and have no attunement period. Wear a pair, and if you have to use them in an encounter, switch to a fresh pair the next time you have ~12 seconds of down time. The other things FoM protects you against are generally covered by your undead traits. Hold? Immune. Poisons? Immune. Other than that, FoM would help you if you were underwater (no hurry, you don't have to breath) and in dense undergrowth or rough rocks, but since you are a caster, and a high level one, you shouldn't need to move a whole lot in most cases to be effective. Can't get close enough to touch? Enervate, etc.

A Lesser MM Rod of Fell Animate (using the MIC rules for a +2 metamagic equiv) would be nice, freeing up the feat for most of your daily undead creation. Generic caster items like +cha, +saves, and a Circlet of Rapid Casting are also very handy.

Doc Roc
2009-09-11, 02:17 AM
I disagree up to a point, though your necropolitan status. FoM Rings are incredibly good. However, Keld is right when he says that they are very expensive, so it can be situational. However, there are plenty of situations where it boils down to either:

Freedom of Movement.

Or

Dead. Well, deanimated.

Cyclocone
2009-09-11, 02:40 AM
1) Any recommendations for my four Advanced Learning spells? Revive Undead is an obvious choice (especially when paired with Craft Contingent Spell!).

Necrotic Skull Bomb!! (Champions of Ruin). It's basically Enervation with 6-7 free levels of meta-magic.


3) So, I was talking about my character with the GM, not realizing that the guy next to him was one of the other players. Upon noticing the "CE" at the top of my sheet, the player said, "Ooh, I'm going to play a paladin!"

Surprisingly, the GM didn't say anything for it or against it. Hopefully the player was just kidding, but just in case, any advice? (Already bought the eternal wand of undetectable alignment.)

Sounds like a recipe for disaster:smallbiggrin: But don't sweat it, Paladins are only prohibited from knowingly asociating with evil, and being oblivious is practically a class-ability for them.

As for feats, what about Rapid Metamagic+Quicken? Black Lore of Moil?

monkey3
2009-09-11, 01:34 PM
Great recommendations. I did not see any help for the extra spells the OP was asking for, except one. Necrotic Skull Bomb is excellent, frankly because it is a swift spell. I don't know how they allow an AOE level drain as a swift action, but they did.

My DN was using the following:
2 L2: Kelgore's Grave Mist (PHB2)
4 L3: Shivering Touch (Frostburn)
6 L6: Fleshshiver (SC) - if =< CL, be stunned no save + take 15d6 damage
8 L8: Avascular Mass (SpC)
9 L7: Greater Consumptive Field (SC) - A Skeleton carries box with 10 live rats

KillianHawkeye
2009-09-11, 06:11 PM
Thats why you don't Fell Animate your Inflict spells at all. Fell Animate a Death Knell! Chances are, save or no, they'll fail it, especially if you have a Death Watch running that basically allows you to cheat and "see" enemies HP. That way, you get a zombie, some temp Str, a juicy temp CL, and some other misc benefits. Its fun for the whole family (well, maybe not).

I'm sure I would've noticed that if my Dread Necro had actually made it past 2nd level. :smallfrown: