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Fishy
2009-09-14, 11:01 PM
So, no Maximized Streamers, then?

Doc Roc
2009-09-14, 11:04 PM
I'm planning to have the rewrite done quite soon. I'll be nerfing them in some respects but they'll probably still be the game's premier damage spell at our level.

Human Paragon 3
2009-09-14, 11:09 PM
But can Iron Heart Surge end Streamers?

Doc Roc
2009-09-14, 11:11 PM
There's a reason that sucker is on the rewrite list.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-15, 12:02 AM
Where is Streamers located, by the by?

Doc Roc
2009-09-15, 12:05 AM
Shining South. A.. book full of useful things.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-15, 12:10 AM
Interesting. I need to pick that up, then.

On a side note, I'm here all night. If anyone fancies assisting me in putting my characters through their paces, I'm always up for it.

Human Paragon 3
2009-09-15, 12:19 AM
Shining South. A.. book full of useful things that probably shouldn't have been printed.

FTFY

this is at least 10 characters.

ex cathedra
2009-09-15, 12:43 AM
Shining South. A.. book full of useful things.

Mm. Shadow pounce should be more widespread. I meant to make one (A shadow-pouncer, that is), but it takes too much investment at this level for me to be comfortable with it.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-15, 12:52 AM
Mm. Shadow pounce should be more widespread. I meant to make one (A shadow-pouncer, that is), but it takes too much investment at this level for me to be comfortable with it.

The limits on full attacks per round are actually pretty harsh towards shadowpounce. I've seen a solid RKV shadowpouncer get about a dozen full attacks in a round, while dual wielding wounding marrowgrinding weapons.

This system limits it down pretty harshly.

FinalJustice
2009-09-15, 09:14 AM
I need to get my paws on this book.

I hate to be annoying, but how about my little questions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6926466&postcount=199) before? Can anyone take a look at them? Thanks. =P

Doc Roc
2009-09-15, 09:54 AM
FJ

1- Runestaves:
- If my character cannot craft, am I still able to get custom Runestaves, say, from a friendly Artificer?

Yes

- IIRC, as I am far from my books, the Runestaff rules mention you attune when preparing/meditating, and you need to reattune if you want to use another one. In this case, can I attune to a runestaff, cast long duration buffs and then reattune to another runestaff I keep with my person.

Yes

- Does Vestige Metamagic, from the Anima Mage, work with Runestaves? (I assume it does, but just to be sure)

Yes, spells cast via runestaff are just like spells cast by you.


2- Spellblade
- Does a Runestaff count as a quarterstaff for enchanting purposes? And can I enchant both sides of said quarterstaff as +1 Spellblade weapons? Can't have enough defenses against casters :P
(Spellblade, IIRC, is in Player's Guide to Faerun)

No, but you only need one hand to manipulate a runestaff so you can probably hold both. Just chain the short rod of the rune staff to your belt, basically.

3- Extraordinary Spell Aim + Antimagic Field
- Is it kosher?
Yes.

- Does it work against Streamers? I believe they have nowhere to *exist* around my character to attack him, but I'm not sure.
Depends, does spell aim cover a 5 ft square?

- If someone attacks me with a weapon, are the magic properties of their weapon suppressed?
Yes.

- Will I get eaten by the houds for this? :P
No, but it's less effective than people think. Basically, it doesn't block LoE or incoming orbs of force, etc.

ex cathedra
2009-09-15, 10:00 AM
I need to get my paws on this book.

I hate to be annoying, but how about my little questions (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6926466&postcount=199) before? Can anyone take a look at them? Thanks. =P

Streamers, the second of the two legitimate sources of Shadow Pounce, a handful of other prestige classes of varying quality, and a few more spells are most of the important things in there. It has a few good enhancements, as well, but I'm fairly sure that they were mostly all included in MiC.

Doc Roc
2009-09-15, 10:05 AM
Well it also has Halruaan Elder, one of the few ways to MM stack that are still allowed in ToS. And it has the second best player race in the game, the Beguiler. It also covers in detail the great reaches of the south, and is a pretty good GM resource. Interesting places. :)

ex cathedra
2009-09-15, 10:09 AM
Yay, Beguilers!

Obligatory Beguiler Beguiler reference.

Ah, Halruuan Elder, that it did. And the prerequisites aren't even that terrible. Too bad it's limited to one or two MM feats at this level, though. It's among the more reasonable MM reducers around, considering the limitations.

Though that isn't saying much, I guess, since it is still a full casting class that reduces MM.

Doc Roc
2009-09-15, 10:16 AM
it also grants signature spells, which sounds crummy until you realize that it basically does that for free. It's no incantatrix, but incantatrix is banned for a jolly good reason.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-09-15, 11:30 AM
Question:
In a qualifier or exhibition, if all-day buffs are accepted, do you have to spend a spellslot on buffs that last longer than a day?

FinalJustice
2009-09-15, 11:35 AM
Tide: Thanks a lot for your attention. (And patience as well ;) )

Tide:


About Extraordinary Spell Aim, I am fairly sure that it excludes one target from the spell area, not the target square(s). It says: "you can attempt to shape the spellís area so that one creature within the area is unaffected by the spell. To accomplish this, you must succeed on a Spellcraft check (DC 25 + spell level)."

Btw, can I get a custom +10 spellcraft item? My character is going to be a sorcerer, and will not be able to pull off ESA shenanigans without one.

About LoE, that's my 'anti-non-spellcasters', no my main protection against spells (ironically). Basically, ESA's Antimagic Field means every weapon hitting me is non-magical. I throw in a Starmantle to disintegrate nonmagical weapons hitting me. I will probably need a ruling on the interaction between Starmantle and natural weapons, since the spell says any weapon. It's not Starmantle + Evasion, but you ninja banned that one away from me *grumble* *grumble*. It is also very resource intensive... =/

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-15, 11:42 AM
Question:
In a qualifier or exhibition, if all-day buffs are accepted, do you have to spend a spellslot on buffs that last longer than a day?

I've always been of the mindset that they need to last at least 40 hours to not cost a slot. That's 24 hours for the previous day, and 16 hours for the current one. Not sure what the powers that be say on the issue, though.

IthilanorStPete
2009-09-15, 11:58 AM
Tide said a couple pages ago that it's >= 36 hours for two-day buffs, and >= 12 hours for all-days.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-15, 12:12 PM
Well that settles that. :)

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-15, 12:49 PM
Also, I'm looking to test my new casty build. It's still working its way through the approval process, but it should be good for an exhibition, for any interested.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-09-15, 01:47 PM
I don't remember if I asked this in the last thread or not:
If you make a character with the Necropolitain template, do you have to start out a level lower (ie 12th level)?

ex cathedra
2009-09-15, 01:49 PM
I don't remember if I asked this in the last thread or not:
If you make a character with the Necropolitain template, do you have to start out a level lower (ie 12th level)?

Yes. Assuming you take Necropolitan at the earliest available level, you lose precisely 3000 xp.

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-15, 02:20 PM
Tidesinger, can I get a clarfication about this rule:

Feats, abilities, and other benefits granted by spells or items may not be used to fulfill any qualification requirement. This excludes Psychic Reformation and similar instantaneous effects.

Does this mean that a character couldn't, for example, qualify for a large-only feat or PrC by virtue of being able to cast Enlarge Person? What if the spell was cast with Permanency? Could a character with 10 strength pick up Power Attack if they have a Belt of Giant's Strength +4?

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-15, 02:23 PM
Yes. Assuming you take Necropolitan at the earliest available level, you lose precisely 3000 xp.

Close, but slightly off.

Per: DMG, p.296.

When that player loses a level, the XP is set to the midpoint between the two levels.

A character with 3000 xp (level 3) loses a level. XP is set to the midpoint between level 2 and level 3. That means that XP is set to 2000 xp. The character then loses an additional 1000 xp, per the necropolitan template (Libris Mortis). XP goes to 1000.

This means, that at the earliest possible moment a player can take the necropolitan template, they'd lose 2000 xp, not 3000.

ex cathedra
2009-09-15, 02:26 PM
It seems I was mistaken. It also seems like that (DMG 296) was written in regards to losing levels by way of permanent level drain, but it is unclear and (regardless) I'm almost certainly wrong.

Apologies.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-15, 02:30 PM
It seems I was mistaken. It also seems like that (DMG 296) was written in regards to losing levels by way of permanent level drain, but it is unclear and (regardless) I'm almost certainly wrong.

Apologies.

It's made vague enough to also apply to other things, such as the level lost from being the unfortunate subject of Raise Dead. It could definately be placed better. In the SRD, it's in the special attacks section (but completely seperate from Energy Drain and Negative Levels).

Doc Roc
2009-09-15, 02:47 PM
Tidesinger, can I get a clarfication about this rule:


Does this mean that a character couldn't, for example, qualify for a large-only feat or PrC by virtue of being able to cast Enlarge Person? What if the spell was cast with Permanency? Could a character with 10 strength pick up Power Attack if they have a Belt of Giant's Strength +4?

No, Yes, No, respectively. :)

Unless I just said yes to hulking hurler.

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-15, 03:00 PM
I think you just did, but it's unclear since it was a question based on "couldn't". I'm actually not sure what your first two answers are. Could you clarify?

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-15, 03:34 PM
No, Yes, No, respectively. :)

Unless I just said yes to hulking hurler.

Provided you allowed permanencied Enlarge Person to qualify for PrC's, feats, and the like, yes, you did.

Doc Roc
2009-09-15, 03:40 PM
Okay, permit me to change my answer:

The answer to all of those questions, is no, you cannot qualify using those means.

9mm
2009-09-15, 03:45 PM
ToS...

Making Tide do back flips since the beginning!

Don't worry you'll soon have rullings for every eventuality, hang in there buddy!

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-15, 03:47 PM
It can still be done with half ogre and LA buyoff, I think.

Side note... anyone interested in an exhibition?

Doc Roc
2009-09-15, 04:22 PM
Actually, I've really enjoyed this. You guys keep me on my toes.

Doc Roc
2009-09-15, 04:24 PM
Penny-Dreadful monk drops at midnight, it looks like!
It won't be ToS legal, but I'll set up a wee little arena just for it. Unless, of course, demand is so high that I have to allow it. :: winks happily ::
KANPAI!

Milskidasith
2009-09-15, 05:16 PM
What's the Psionic-Magic transparency level in the ToS?

sofawall
2009-09-15, 05:26 PM
I suspect powers and spells interact fully, but skills (like psicraft or UPD) do not interact.

This is how I played it once, under Tide.

Doc Roc
2009-09-15, 05:29 PM
It's full, excluding skills, basically.

T.G. Oskar
2009-09-15, 07:13 PM
Penny-Dreadful monk drops at midnight, it looks like!
It won't be ToS legal, but I'll set up a wee little arena just for it. Unless, of course, demand is so high that I have to allow it. :: winks happily ::
KANPAI!

Penny-Dreadful? You lost me at that.

Also, since it kinda died on the Homebrew forums...mind if you playtest and aid me on balancing some of the homebrew I've made, even if it's not ToS legal? I know it's a shameless plug, but it hasn't progressed at all.

Oh, just to mention: one of Phoenix's builds has been approved. I've told him which build was approved, and all sheet-checkers will know. Maybe later I'll work with another, if I find the moment.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-15, 08:08 PM
How about class abilities which temporarily make you Large size?

Specifically, I'm talking about Mountanous Rage Goliath Barbarian ACF from Races of Stone, which trades the Str and Con bonuses, but flat increases your size to Large.

sofawall
2009-09-15, 08:13 PM
Might I suggest that you cannot qualify for anything using anything temporary*?

*Disappears in an AMF and/or lasts for less than 6 years

I chose my definition of temporary entirely arbitrarily, and without much thought, mind you. For instance, it screws over a number of things, but I'm lazy and don't want to think.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-15, 08:28 PM
Actually, my "barbarian" build was more of a Zhenatarim fighter build.

Imperious Command FTW!

I had Skill Mastery and a +54 on Intimidate IIRC :smallbiggrin:

sofawall
2009-09-15, 08:32 PM
And yet I bet you wouldn't even touch me :P

I need my brother to get off the computer with my stuff so I can finally finish my build.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-15, 09:08 PM
I was Tier 3...a 1.5 trick pony (Dungeoncrasher against Cowering opponents let me deal ~100 damage a hit). I'd also bet that I couldnt hit you :smalltongue:

sofawall
2009-09-15, 09:09 PM
You wouldn't even get to me, never mind hit me. :P

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-15, 09:14 PM
Tide: Do White Raven maneuvers that affect "allies" affect their initiator in general, or is WRT a specific exception?

9mm
2009-09-15, 10:04 PM
Boomers done...

finally... two more to go. *sigh*

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-15, 11:14 PM
I have one approved character (Grizzle) and one character awaiting approval (Yora). I'm available for matches, either exhibition or official. I'll be up and about this evening, so let me know. :)

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-16, 12:04 AM
And it has the second best player race in the game, the Beguiler.Well, now you've got me curious. What's the top one, and why is Beguiler so good? Beyond the cool factor, of course.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-16, 12:05 AM
Post in The Monkening
*Kicks Sstoop into a pit.*

Doc Roc
2009-09-16, 12:34 AM
Well, now you've got me curious. What's the top one, and why is Beguiler so good? Beyond the cool factor, of course.

Good stats, small size, buffs to good skills, can pretend to be an animal, always up true-seeing. Last one is a biggie. Also, prehensile tail + iaijatsu == curiously bad-ass.

I consider Greensnake Naga to be probably the strongest LA +1 race out there, with infinite range telepathy, a trick against surprise, a total of +12 in stat modifiers, alternative form for females, at will poison, and a few other things.

Doc Roc
2009-09-16, 01:06 AM
Some notes:

Grafts and Stances can qualify you for PrCs, etc. They're always there, and stances are in fact class features. This is not a glitch, this is intended.

Lokey
2009-09-16, 01:53 AM
Couple times in ToS matches I see people throwing actions after a Dimension Door. Wondering how this is possible since I don't see a rule change.

I don't think Belt of Battle covers it by itself, and there's probably maneuvers/spells I'm not familiar with that might do it.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-16, 02:19 AM
Don't believe it generally is, though there are exceptions. For example, a Shadowpouncer can explicitly full attack after a dim door.

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-16, 09:27 AM
I've noticed that too. I'll call it out when I see it, in case they don't have a means to act.

Tide: I'm building a Warmarked. Do their marks qualify them for stuff?

Human Paragon 3
2009-09-16, 09:54 AM
They might have arcane spellsurge on, letting them DD as a swift.

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-16, 10:04 AM
That's not really the problem:


After using this spell, you canít take any other actions until your next turn.

Now that I think about it, this would even prevent Immediate actions.

Master_Rahl22
2009-09-16, 10:23 AM
I'm up for an exhibition with somebody. My guy is probably Tier 3 since I'm not the best at optimization but I think he's pretty good.

Doc Roc
2009-09-16, 10:46 AM
What do you mean when you ask if their marks qualify them for things? :: curious :: I didn't think we'd offered anything that would serve as qualification material until quite late.

The general answer though, is yes they do.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-16, 10:58 AM
I'm up for an exhibition with somebody. My guy is probably Tier 3 since I'm not the best at optimization but I think he's pretty good.

I'll go against you. You want my Dual progression caster, or my druid 13?

Master_Rahl22
2009-09-16, 11:12 AM
Let's give the Druid a shot. Would you like to create the thread? I'm fine with the standard columns map.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-16, 11:21 AM
Umm... Where's the standard Column map?

edit: Nevermind, found it.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-16, 11:24 AM
Couple times in ToS matches I see people throwing actions after a Dimension Door. Wondering how this is possible since I don't see a rule change.

I don't think Belt of Battle covers it by itself, and there's probably maneuvers/spells I'm not familiar with that might do it.

Using DimDoor is a Standard Action. They also get a Move Action that round, in which they can use other things with.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-16, 11:24 AM
Umm... Where's the standard Column map?


{table=head]|A|B|C|D|E|F|G|H|I|J|K|L
1||||||||||||
2|
3|||C|C|||||C|C||
4|||C|C|||||C|C||
5||||||||||||
6|
7|
8||||||||||||
9|||C|C|||||C|C||
10|||C|C|||||C|C||
11|
12|||||||||||[/table]

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-16, 11:27 AM
Using DimDoor is a Standard Action. They also get a Move Action that round, in which they can use other things with.

The text he's referring to is:

You instantly transfer yourself from your current location to any other spot within range. You always arrive at exactly the spot desiredówhether by simply visualizing the area or by stating direction. After using this spell, you canít take any other actions until your next turn. You can bring along objects as long as their weight doesnít exceed your maximum load. You may also bring one additional willing Medium or smaller creature (carrying gear or objects up to its maximum load) or its equivalent per three caster levels. A Large creature counts as two Medium creatures, a Huge creature counts as two Large creatures, and so forth. All creatures to be transported must be in contact with one another, and at least one of those creatures must be in contact with you.

If you arrive in a place that is already occupied by a solid body, you and each creature traveling with you take 1d6 points of damage and are shunted to a random open space on a suitable surface within 100 feet of the intended location.

If there is no free space within 100 feet, you and each creature traveling with you take an additional 2d6 points of damage and are shunted to a free space within 1,000 feet. If there is no free space within 1,000 feet, you and each creature travelling with you take an additional 4d6 points of damage and the spell simply fails.

EDIT: MasterRahl, the match awaits (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125227).

Master_Rahl22
2009-09-16, 11:33 AM
LOL, ok we'll use yours.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-16, 11:41 AM
Fair enough. :) I've posted in the thread.

Arakune
2009-09-16, 12:30 PM
Tidesinger, are you mentioning my match against olo? The one where he tryied to pull an infinite (illegal) combo?

Master_Rahl22
2009-09-16, 01:15 PM
Question for refs:

What happens if I crit on a Greater Insightful Strike? The maneuver says that weapon properties and strength mod don't apply to damage, but it says nothing about what happens with crits.

Also, is it possible to use Swooping Dragon Strike, which requires a Jump check, while flying?

imperialspectre
2009-09-16, 07:35 PM
Using DimDoor is a Standard Action. They also get a Move Action that round, in which they can use other things with.

The problem is that the Dim Door text says you can't take any other actions until the beginning of your next turn, meaning that you effectively lose those actions.

sofawall
2009-09-16, 07:49 PM
Question for refs:

What happens if I crit on a Greater Insightful Strike? The maneuver says that weapon properties and strength mod don't apply to damage, but it says nothing about what happens with crits.

Also, is it possible to use Swooping Dragon Strike, which requires a Jump check, while flying?


Rahl:
I don't have ToB on hand, but the second one, Jump checks never say you need to be on the ground :P

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-16, 07:54 PM
I cant figure out my last 3 feats :smallannoyed:

ToSers, what are some good, general, fighter feats? I havent been able to finish this stupid Warmarked, and I want to try it out...

Thank Pelor for the gleemax forums. Anyone want to fight a Tier 3 Warmarked?

sofawall
2009-09-16, 08:34 PM
I would, but 1) I'm not quite done (Tide needs to check it. Claudius does not get to see it :P) and 2) I think a Tier 3 Warmarked would be.. Well, quite frankly, useless. Even a Warmarked, pinnacle of melee combat.

EDIT: Although if one were awesome enough, I'd basically be reduced to chasing you until you fall asleep, as I am both extremely hard to kill and extremely slow.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-16, 08:38 PM
Yeah, I dont think I want to face your character. I did make Jarka so that she has very few weaknesses, relative to a normal melee character of course.

Then again...sofawall...a caster...*shudder*

sofawall
2009-09-16, 08:39 PM
Actually, I'm a commoner 13.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-16, 08:55 PM
Suprisingly, that scares me even more.

sofawall
2009-09-16, 08:59 PM
I learned most of my optimization from AIM convos with Tidesinger. You are right to be afraid.



:smallwink:

9mm
2009-09-16, 09:25 PM
I learned most of my optimization from AIM convos with Tidesinger. You are right to be afraid.



:smallwink:

... lucky, I learned all I know from desperate attempts to survive the unbelievable amount of crap a DM I know throws at his players.

Current experiment: Rouge/Spellthief in a gestalt pathfinder game.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-16, 10:19 PM
Does Greater Dimension Door allow you to take actions after dding?

And does anyone know a way to get in a 4HD, 3LA race?

Doc Roc
2009-09-16, 10:23 PM
Oh and, STK:

The Zeroth Player Race. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19861802/The_Most_Broken_PC_Race_EVER)

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-16, 10:25 PM
And theres your 4HD +3 LA Race!

Since this is a new page...anyone want to fight my Warmarked. Tier 3.

9mm
2009-09-16, 10:34 PM
And theres your 4HD +3 LA Race!

Since this is a new page...anyone want to fight my Warmarked. Tier 3.

... Do I even dare try?

Human Paragon 3
2009-09-16, 10:34 PM
I'll take you on. My sheet isnt officially OKd but if there are problems with it they are little.

Doc Roc
2009-09-16, 10:53 PM
Penny-Dreadful? You lost me at that.

Also, since it kinda died on the Homebrew forums...mind if you playtest and aid me on balancing some of the homebrew I've made, even if it's not ToS legal? I know it's a shameless plug, but it hasn't progressed at all.


Penny Dreadfuls is a group of ten or so of us who basically snapped, and decided it was time to move **** along to a more reasonable place. I'd be very happy to help you test out your 'brew.

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-16, 11:02 PM
Tide, what are your stances on some issues:

Must you use a defending weapon to gain its benefit?

Can the benefits of multiple speed weapons be used in the same round?

Can Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster advance PrC features beyond the max level of the class?

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-16, 11:03 PM
Gaurd Juris: Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6943962#post6943962)

9mm: I use a shield too. Maybe we can fight at a later date, and not have a 1 round battle :smallsigh:

Doc Roc
2009-09-16, 11:28 PM
Tide, what are your stances on some issues:

Must you use a defending weapon to gain its benefit?

Can the benefits of multiple speed weapons be used in the same round?

Can Legacy Champion and Uncanny Trickster advance PrC features beyond the max level of the class?

Yes.

Not to stack them.

Depends on the specific instance, unfortunately, as it's a matter of very specific wording in the features.

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-16, 11:34 PM
Thanks, but I forgot another question I wanted to ask you:

Do White Raven maneuvers that target "allies" affect the initiator in general, or is WRT a specific exception?

Doc Roc
2009-09-16, 11:48 PM
Generally, they do, yes.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-17, 08:22 AM
If anyone fancies an exhibition match, I've got a psion I'd like to test out.

Master_Rahl22
2009-09-17, 09:00 AM
I still have a question for refs, thanks sofawall for answering the other:

What happens if I crit on a Greater Insightful Strike? The maneuver says that weapon properties and strength mod don't apply to damage, but it says nothing about what happens with crits.

Also, can Iron Heart Surge end a grapple?

Saph
2009-09-17, 09:54 AM
So, a brief Test of Spite: Monkening update . . . the PvP battle is still going, due to some delays caused by a player dropping out. Pharaoh's taken over the character while we look for a long-term replacement.

At present the combined effects of all the spellcasters have resulted in the entire battlefield being completely whited out from all view, meaning that not only is no-one sure who's on who's side, no-one can see anything either. Further developments are anyone's guess. :)

Link to current page: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116095&page=33

Human Paragon 3
2009-09-17, 10:38 AM
So, a brief Test of Spite: Monkening update . . .

Hilarious.

Master_Rahl22
2009-09-17, 12:11 PM
In addition to my question from above, we need a GM ruling here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6946594&posted=1#post6946594). The short version is spoilered below.


Phoenix cast Spiritjaws, which says that it attacks automatically, but I\if you become unable to command the jaws, they vanish. I stunned him, meaning he can't take actions. Do the Spiritjaws vanish?

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-17, 12:21 PM
Addendum to above question:I need not take actions for Spiritjaws to do what it does. My foe was already designated, and I'm not incapacitated. As such, something which only takes away my actions (such as stunned) shouldn't impact spiritjaws.

Master_Rahl22
2009-09-17, 12:27 PM
Additional addendum: :)

The crux of the matter is how is "unable to command the jaws" defined. If it's defined as "unable to take actions" then the spell ends. If it's possible to be unable to take actions and yet somehow still able to command the jaws, then the spell continues. The only thing I see in SpC about commanding it is here: "As a free action, you can direct the jaws to pin a grappled opponent instead of dealing damage with a grapple check." Can't take actions means free ones too.

Aharon
2009-09-17, 12:29 PM
Assuming I tried to make a Truenamer, how do Utterances from the Lexicon of the Perfected Map work? In the introduction, it is stated that "Unless stated otherwise, all the utterances from this lexicon affect a 20-foot-radius spread area and have a range of 100 feet."

However, many utterances from this lexicon copy spells from the PHB, stating "functions as ..., except as noted here."

So what is the range and area of these utterances. For example, would Conjunctive Gate produce a Gate with 20-foot-radius spread area?
Or do the range and area descriptions in the PHB constitute a part of the "unless stated otherwise" clause?

Doc Roc
2009-09-17, 12:34 PM
First, some notes:
True Namers are allowed item familiars. I suggest you take one.
Gate is banned.

If a effect Functions As Per, the general guideline is that it uses all the characteristics of that effect except those specifically over-ridden.

@ MR:
I'm not coming up with any clear precedent or any ruling that makes me immediately happy.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-17, 02:41 PM
Additional addendum: :)

The crux of the matter is how is "unable to command the jaws" defined. If it's defined as "unable to take actions" then the spell ends. If it's possible to be unable to take actions and yet somehow still able to command the jaws, then the spell continues. The only thing I see in SpC about commanding it is here: "As a free action, you can direct the jaws to pin a grappled opponent instead of dealing damage with a grapple check." Can't take actions means free ones too.


For that option to be valid, the jaws would need to grapple my foe, and then be entitled another attack.

Otherwise, I'm unable to direct the jaws to do that the instant I cast the spell (because I can't direct the jaws to do that when there is no grappled opponent), and the jaws would vanish. If that is the measure by which we judge when the jaws vanish, the spell would never function at all. As that interpretation would yield a spell with no function at all, I'm sure it's not the most accurate interpretation.

Master_Rahl22
2009-09-17, 03:00 PM
For that option to be valid, the jaws would need to grapple my foe, and then be entitled another attack.

Otherwise, I'm unable to direct the jaws to do that the instant I cast the spell (because I can't direct the jaws to do that when there is no grappled opponent), and the jaws would vanish. If that is the measure by which we judge when the jaws vanish, the spell would never function at all. As that interpretation would yield a spell with no function at all, I'm sure it's not the most accurate interpretation.


Ah, but you're able to take a free action when you cast the spell, so you're able to direct the jaws, even if the situation in which you'd need to direct them hasn't happened yet. The only thing the spell says about directing it, is "as a free action..." and you currently can't take free actions, or any other kind. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-17, 03:07 PM
Ah, but you're able to take a free action when you cast the spell, so you're able to direct the jaws, even if the situation in which you'd need to direct them hasn't happened yet. The only thing the spell says about directing it, is "as a free action..." and you currently can't take free actions, or any other kind. Seems pretty cut and dry to me.


While yes, I am able to take a free action when the spell is cast, that option "As a free action, you can direct the jaws to pin a grappled opponent instead of dealing damage with a grapple check" is only available when all of the following are true:

1) I am able to take free actions.
2) The jaws are currently grappling an opponent.
3) The jaws are able to make a grapple check.

If being unable to direct it to pin would end the spell, then the spell ends as soon as it's cast. I am unable to direct the jaws to pin, when they are not grappling a foe.

In this instance "unable to direct" does not equal "unable to direct to pin". If it did, then the spell would end the instant it's cast. You're getting hung up on issue 1. Issue 2 would also invalidate the spell, and would prevent the spell from functioning at all.

In other words, I am no more or less able to command the jaws to pin now than before I was stunned. Stunning has had no impact on my ability to direct the jaws in the way you're contending.

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-17, 03:29 PM
What are the limits on customizing potions, wands, etc? Can we have them at any CL we pay for, or is there a maximum (like CL 20)?

Could we get metamagic'd versions of these items, e.g. a potion of extended bull's strength? The existence of heightened wands points towards yes on this one, but I want to be sure.

Doc Roc
2009-09-17, 03:45 PM
While yes, I am able to take a free action when the spell is cast, that option "As a free action, you can direct the jaws to pin a grappled opponent instead of dealing damage with a grapple check" is only available when all of the following are true:

1) I am able to take free actions.
2) The jaws are currently grappling an opponent.
3) The jaws are able to make a grapple check.

If being unable to direct it to pin would end the spell, then the spell ends as soon as it's cast. I am unable to direct the jaws to pin, when they are not grappling a foe.

In this instance "unable to direct" does not equal "unable to direct to pin". If it did, then the spell would end the instant it's cast. You're getting hung up on issue 1. Issue 2 would also invalidate the spell, and would prevent the spell from functioning at all.

In other words, I am no more or less able to command the jaws to pin now than before I was stunned. Stunning has had no impact on my ability to direct the jaws in the way you're contending.


While I am inclined to agree, I feel his concern was perfectly reasonable given how weird the wording on spiritjaws was.

Doc Roc
2009-09-17, 03:48 PM
Could we get metamagic'd versions of these items, e.g. a potion of extended bull's strength? The existence of heightened wands points towards yes on this one, but I want to be sure.

CL Cap is 20, as we pretend there are no epic levels and no epic rules, and we're going to assume you haven't found a friendly crafter who lives inside a fully-charged consumptive field. :)

Unless that friendly crafter is you. In which case :: sob ::

I believe you can indeed metamoogix a wand or potion during creation, but I'm gonna go ahead restrict it to heighten, empower, and extend.

ex cathedra
2009-09-17, 03:50 PM
Now that the Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125308) has gone live, how will it interact here?

My development test character has nothing to do...

pleasepleaseplease

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-17, 04:05 PM
Just finished my Warmarked. Anyone care for an exhibition against him?

Also, I still have an approved Tier 3 character. If anyone in that bracket wants a qualifier, I'm game.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-17, 04:14 PM
Just finished my Warmarked. Anyone care for an exhibition against him?

Also, I still have an approved Tier 3 character. If anyone in that bracket wants a qualifier, I'm game.

I'll exhibition it, if you like. I have a Psion that needs testing.


While I am inclined to agree, I feel his concern was perfectly reasonable given how weird the wording on spiritjaws was.

Agreed, and I didn't begrudge him the question. It's why I provide the spells I'm casting, even though his character can't identify them. I like a second set of eyes on me. Keeps me from making a mistake.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-17, 04:19 PM
Oh and, STK:

The Zeroth Player Race. (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19861802/The_Most_Broken_PC_Race_EVER)

Lol, exactly what I was thinking... maybe I should have it die a little bit before I asked, but hey, what's so broken that a caster couldn't pull off already?

Also does Greater Dimension Door allow actions after dimension dooring?

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-17, 04:29 PM
Pheonix: Make a thread, please.

Sharnian: The action stopping text is copied from Dimension door, since GDD is "like Dimension Door, except as noted." You can not act after "using" Greater Dimension Door. I assume that means after each jump.

Doc Roc
2009-09-17, 04:37 PM
Lol, exactly what I was thinking... maybe I should have it die a little bit before I asked, but hey, what's so broken that a caster couldn't pull off already?

Also does Greater Dimension Door allow actions after dimension dooring?

The issue is that as soon as a shaedling has the dexterity to handle objects, it ascends to over-deity status.

I believe it does. I think psionic dim door does too.

Master_Rahl22
2009-09-17, 04:52 PM
So Tide, the official ruling with me vs. Phoenix is that his spell continues?

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-17, 04:52 PM
Pheonix: Make a thread, please.

Sharnian: The action stopping text is copied from Dimension door, since GDD is "like Dimension Door, except as noted." You can not act after "using" Greater Dimension Door. I assume that means after each jump.

Your wish is my command (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6948433#post6948433).

Doc Roc
2009-09-17, 04:57 PM
So Tide, the official ruling with me vs. Phoenix is that his spell continues?

Yes, that is correct. Thank you for your patience and tolerance, MR.


Greensnake Naga just got a limit on its telepathy range for mindsight purposes. It's still probably strong enough to merit consideration for banning, but we just had our first submission for that.

Master_Rahl22
2009-09-17, 05:03 PM
Ok, these questions have become important based on that ruling. GMs:

What happens if I crit on a Greater Insightful Strike? The maneuver says that weapon properties and strength mod don't apply to damage, but it says nothing about what happens with crits.

Also, can Iron Heart Surge end a grapple?

Doc Roc
2009-09-17, 05:04 PM
Affected as weapon damage.

No, it does not, I don't think.

Test Of Spite
2009-09-17, 08:11 PM
ToS Live chat (http://www.meebo.com/room/techin/) is now up, driven by meebo. Password is dog.

sofawall
2009-09-17, 08:20 PM
hmm... My school uses dog as the default password when a new account is made, before you set a new one.

Doc Roc
2009-09-17, 08:22 PM
I considered foo or bar, but dog seemed easier for the lay-person to remember. I see people agree with me.

Master_Rahl22
2009-09-17, 08:40 PM
Looking at the grapple rules, it says you can make opposed grapple checks in place of an attack. Does that mean that since I have 3 iteratives and am dual wielding that I can try 6 grapple checks as a full-round action?

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-17, 09:12 PM
Are there any players here who are awaiting word back from me concerning their sheet? I don't mean those of you who have as yet unchecked sheets, but rather those whom I have contacted before who are still awaiting approval.

Most of the unapproved characters are such because I am awaiting changes from your end, but I would not be surprised if I forgot one of them myself. Contact me if you think this is the case with your character(s).

Human Paragon 3
2009-09-17, 09:18 PM
I updated my sheet recently and am waiting for approval. The unapproved character is facing off with olo's warmarked right now.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-17, 09:50 PM
Looking at the grapple rules, it says you can make opposed grapple checks in place of an attack. Does that mean that since I have 3 iteratives and am dual wielding that I can try 6 grapple checks as a full-round action?


Attack Your Opponent

You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

You canít attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.

That should resolve the dual wield portion of the question.

Doc Roc
2009-09-17, 10:55 PM
Vermin Lord is banned.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-17, 11:12 PM
Are there any players here who are awaiting word back from me concerning their sheet? I don't mean those of you who have as yet unchecked sheets, but rather those whom I have contacted before who are still awaiting approval.

Most of the unapproved characters are such because I am awaiting changes from your end, but I would not be surprised if I forgot one of them myself. Contact me if you think this is the case with your character(s).

Well, I'm only waiting for you to confirm that I can use bladed gauntlets and you said it would be approved after that

T.G. Oskar
2009-09-18, 12:09 AM
@Tide:
Are the following ACFs or feats:
Harmonious Knight ACF for Paladin
From Smite to Song
Initiate of Milil

qualify as "bardic music" for the purposes of the following PrC or feats? These are:
[LIST] Sublime Chord PrC. Alternatively, any PrC that requires Bardic Music.
Dragonfire Inspiration
Snowflake Wardance
Metamagic Song
Extra Music (the one that grants you extra uses of Bardic Music)
any else I might have forgotten.

I thought of a build earlier ago, and wanted to see how effective it may be on a ToS battle. I also am a bit eager to battle again, something I haven't done for a long time.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-18, 12:38 AM
Tide, or another DM:

If I could get you to peek in on an exhibition match, and give a ruling for me:

Match is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6950948#post6950948).

I've listed out the entire argument, with reference text from the power involved in the dispute (Anticipatory Strike), and a play by play of the first 2 rounds of the battle, for ease of reference.

I've also included a summary of the current point of contention, though the original text is above in the match thread.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-09-18, 07:21 AM
I've made myself a sweet War-marked dude who I'd love to test out as soon as I get him approved. Are there any takers?

Arakune
2009-09-18, 07:48 AM
Can I count Temporal Acceleration as just extra actions instead of extra turns?

imperialspectre
2009-09-18, 08:24 AM
Shroom Ninja: I also have a War-Marked character. Want to set up a thread?

Mushroom Ninja
2009-09-18, 08:26 AM
Shroom Ninja: I also have a War-Marked character. Want to set up a thread?

I've not been approved yet (just sent in my sheet this morning), but as soon as I am, I'd love to.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-18, 09:10 AM
Can I count Temporal Acceleration as just extra actions instead of extra turns?

Asked that a few days ago. Temporal Acceleration is extra turns, not extra actions within one turn.

Arakune
2009-09-18, 09:21 AM
Asked that a few days ago. Temporal Acceleration is extra turns, not extra actions within one turn.

I guess I need to remake my psion again... :smallfrown:

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-18, 09:28 AM
I guess I need to remake my psion again... :smallfrown:

Why? Extra turns means that the action limit resets with each turn. Only possible issue is with short duration powers and effects.

Adumbration
2009-09-18, 01:25 PM
Would anyone like to have a quick match against the character I made last weekend? It would have to be quick, for I only have this weekend time. My character has not been checked yet, so it would have to be purely an exhibition match.

Any takers? I would also appreciate if anyone wanted to rate my charater's tier. I'm very bad at evaluating that.

Doc Roc
2009-09-18, 03:24 PM
Tide, or another DM:

If I could get you to peek in on an exhibition match, and give a ruling for me:

Match is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6950948#post6950948).

I've listed out the entire argument, with reference text from the power involved in the dispute (Anticipatory Strike), and a play by play of the first 2 rounds of the battle, for ease of reference.

I've also included a summary of the current point of contention, though the original text is above in the match thread.

I'm not prepared to make a ruling, but depending on the ruling, there's a good chance anticipatory strike will be hitting the restrict\ban list after your match.

Arakune
2009-09-18, 07:26 PM
Why? Extra turns means that the action limit resets with each turn. Only possible issue is with short duration powers and effects.

:confused:

Can anybody explain to me the new action economy rules and how power/feats/spells that give you extra turns work? (except time stop, that is explicity banned)

Doc Roc
2009-09-18, 07:33 PM
I'll do you one better. I'll refurbish them to make them easier to grasp.

Doc Roc
2009-09-18, 07:35 PM
As written, you are right, it doesn't, due to the use of the language "per round."

I'm not sure this is a bad thing, guys. Thoughts?

Arakune
2009-09-18, 07:46 PM
As written, you are right, it doesn't, due to the use of the language "per round."

I'm not sure this is a bad thing, guys. Thoughts?

So, per written, Phoenix is right?

Lord_Gareth
2009-09-18, 07:47 PM
Quick question - homebrew, provided it A. comes from this site and B. meets with some form of approval? There's plenty of great 'brew around here, and, frankly, I'm not an optimizer. If I'm gonna die anyway, I may as well look cool doing it.

(And by, "not an optimizer", I mean, "I read the rules, nodded my head once, and asked someone else what the hell half of them meant. Also, why the hell did you ban FIGHTER, of all classes?)

Arakune
2009-09-18, 07:47 PM
Quick question - homebrew, provided it A. comes from this site and B. meets with some form of approval? There's plenty of great 'brew around here, and, frankly, I'm not an optimizer. If I'm gonna die anyway, I may as well look cool doing it.

(And by, "not an optimizer", I mean, "I read the rules, nodded my head once, and asked someone else what the hell half of them meant. Also, why the hell did you ban FIGHTER, of all classes?)

Too weak. :smallwink:

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-18, 08:17 PM
Match bitterness aside, Anticipatory Strike doesn't seem too overpowered. It's pretty much an immediate White Raven Tactics with the caveat that you need to spend PP each round or lose a turn. It should be fine in an environment with daze-immune Celerity users and such.

I imagine some abuses can be pulled with it, but I can't think of any offhand. I support a ban if you can pull off any nonsense, though.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-18, 08:28 PM
BTW, most immediate action feats mention something about when they take effect (ie. after being hit but before taking damage for instance). For spells this is however generally not the case. A couple of situations I'm wondering about. You have to make a save, can celerity (and psionic equivalent) allow you to act before it takes effect? Same question for identifying a spell with spellcraft. Same question for being hit with a weapon.

Also about contingencies ... are they omniscient? (ie. can they trigger on someone starting to attack/cast a spell at you and interrupt that activity even though you could not possibly detect it?) I assume they can't look into the future? (So any trigger has to be something which is happening, not something which will happen.)

sofawall
2009-09-18, 08:42 PM
BTW, most immediate action feats mention something about when they take effect (ie. after being hit but before taking damage for instance). For spells this is however generally not the case. A couple of situations I'm wondering about. You have to make a save, can celerity (and psionic equivalent) allow you to act before it takes effect? Same question for identifying a spell with spellcraft. Same question for being hit with a weapon.

Also about contingencies ... are they omniscient? (ie. can they trigger on someone starting to attack/cast a spell at you and interrupt that activity even though you could not possibly detect it?) I assume they can't look into the future? (So any trigger has to be something which is happening, not something which will happen.)

Contingencies are omniscient.

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-18, 08:43 PM
Contingency takes effect whether or not you are aware of the conditions. It can't, however, see into the future.

As for immediate actions, I seem to recall that Tidesinger had made or was making a set of rules for this sort of thing. A "stack" mechanic, IIRC.

Personally, of all the examples you gave, I'd only accept casting Celerity when identifying a spell. For an incoming attack, you either cast the spell before it happens are get hit and suffer the consequences. Same story for saves.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-18, 08:52 PM
For an incoming attack, you either cast the spell before it happens are get hit and suffer the consequences.
Can you see an arrow coming? (Shot by an attacker you can't see.)

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-18, 08:57 PM
Yes, and you can respond to it. However, you can not respond to it after you know whether or not it hits, because the only way to know if it hits IC is if it hits you. This can be a problem in PbP because people often publicly roll thier attacks when they announce them. I've started spoilering my rolls for his very reason.

The same applies to saves. You can't announce that you interrupt thier spell once you've made your save. Either it affects you and you roll your save or you interrupt it. This is less of a problem in matches because the rolls are made on your end.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-18, 09:01 PM
The same applies to saves. You can't announce that you interrupt thier spell once you've made your save.
But you can take an immediate action when you are told to roll a save before you actually roll it? (I'd say the spell has hit the moment you have to roll.)

PS. putting dust of disappearance on every arrow is going to be an expensive trick.

Doc Roc
2009-09-18, 09:28 PM
So, per written, Phoenix is right?

As written you are right, actually. And it may stay that way. it fixes a LOT of problems.

Doc Roc
2009-09-18, 09:31 PM
Match bitterness aside, Anticipatory Strike doesn't seem too overpowered. It's pretty much an immediate White Raven Tactics with the caveat that you need to spend PP each round or lose a turn. It should be fine in an environment with daze-immune Celerity users and such.

I imagine some abuses can be pulled with it, but I can't think of any offhand. I support a ban if you can pull off any nonsense, though.

I take it anticipatory strike was deciding factor in the match? can I get a link?

Were you satisfied with the war-marked?


Quick question - homebrew, provided it A. comes from this site and B. meets with some form of approval? There's plenty of great 'brew around here, and, frankly, I'm not an optimizer. If I'm gonna die anyway, I may as well look cool doing it.


In general, no. On a case by case basis, please ask me. A few pieces of our own homebrew are permitted, such as the War-marked or the Monk Fix, both of which are provisionally allowed for exhibitions only.

War-marked is extremely easy to build, so you might find that to your liking.

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-18, 09:48 PM
The match isn't over, actually. The "bitterness" was referring to the fact that we spent half the thread argiung about Anticipatory Strike. Ultimately, I think Phoenix was right. Anyway, here's a link, easily copied and pasted for archive purposes:

Claudius vs. PhoenixRivers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125362)

Concerning the Warmarked, I haven't been able to do enough to get a good feel for it, but in retrospect my character is rather poorly built. I'll probably have another exhibition after this one. Hopefully I'll be able to give you an opinion by then.

Human Paragon 3
2009-09-18, 10:31 PM
I have a couple ideas for feats for the ITL Monk. Are you accepting homebrew suggestions?

9mm
2009-09-18, 10:39 PM
i'm bored, anyone up for exhibition from either of my two fighters?

Doc Roc
2009-09-18, 10:43 PM
Many of the authors are friends from ToS.

In other words, yes.

Arakune
2009-09-18, 11:03 PM
As written you are right, actually. And it may stay that way. it fixes a LOT of problems.

To treat the time acceleration as extra actions for the same round?

Well, other than that, I don't know how you could get two actual standard actons or extra stuff except from the belt of battle and some psionic powers.

Doc Roc
2009-09-18, 11:16 PM
Yes. How do you feel about it?

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-19, 12:19 AM
Match bitterness aside, Anticipatory Strike doesn't seem too overpowered. It's pretty much an immediate White Raven Tactics with the caveat that you need to spend PP each round or lose a turn. It should be fine in an environment with daze-immune Celerity users and such.

I imagine some abuses can be pulled with it, but I can't think of any offhand. I support a ban if you can pull off any nonsense, though.

The real advantage of AS is that it's an immediate action. There are some effects that can make it worse (Temporal Acceleration to get rid of the round lost, for example), but the PP cost to do such things gets pretty prohibitive, and you also need to be manifesting another ability that grants extra actions (like schism), or you don't get to do anything with your rounds. Even so, with schism, your offense is at reduced Manifester level. You're looking at 20-30 pp per round you do it, not even counting what you do with the actions. I don't know how many pp most players have, but my guy's got under 200. Psions without PP are pretty much Auto-lose, so if a psion is doing that, weathering the storm is the name of the game.

Unfortunately, psions are very efficient in establishing action economy. They have a high DC stun effect, and a host of abilities to provide for extra turns. Make it a cerebremancer, to take advantage of effects that stun and exhaust, and it gets worse. That's the current theme of my character, is establishing action advantage, and exploiting it for profit.

Adumbration
2009-09-19, 12:32 AM
i'm bored, anyone up for exhibition from either of my two fighters?

If you are just coming online for the day, I would be most willing. (Morning here, not much to do today.) Up for beating some caster that has an obscure prestige class?

Doc Roc
2009-09-19, 12:32 AM
@PR: I've been rather impressed. I'm a big believer in the idea that action economy is the only economy. We'll sit down and talk fixes after your match is done, okay?

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-19, 12:55 AM
@PR: I've been rather impressed. I'm a big believer in the idea that action economy is the only economy. We'll sit down and talk fixes after your match is done, okay?

Roger that. Fixes for AS, or warmarked? lol.

Doc Roc
2009-09-19, 01:04 AM
Yes
Stupid character limit on the stupid posts.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-19, 01:33 AM
Anyone want to fight? Ive got ~25 characters, and most of them can fight.

Adumbration
2009-09-19, 01:50 AM
Anyone want to fight? Ive got ~25 characters, and most of them can fight.

I'm starting to think that no one reads my posts anymore... :smallfrown:

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-19, 01:54 AM
I thought you were fighting 9mm...

What type of character would you like to fight?

Adumbration
2009-09-19, 01:56 AM
I thought you were fighting 9mm...

What type of character would you like to fight?

9mm apparently went offline, and as stated, I have about a day or two of intensive fighting in me.

Anything you've got is fine by me. I just want to test my char... I mean spite. :smalltongue:

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-19, 01:58 AM
Would you be fine with a quasi-minionmancer? As in, buff rounds include summoning allowed?

Adumbration
2009-09-19, 01:59 AM
Would you be fine with a quasi-minionmancer? As in, buff rounds include summoning allowed?

Sure, I've got no problem with that. Shall you set up the thread, or shall I?

EDIT: How many buff rounds would you like?

EDIT 2: In the thread now.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-19, 02:03 AM
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6956898#post6956898)'s the thread. Lets continue the discussion there.

Adumbration
2009-09-19, 02:05 AM
Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6956898#post6956898)'s the thread. Lets continue the discussion there.

Waay ahead of ya. :smallwink:

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-19, 03:26 AM
My psion is available for another match, for those interested.

Tide, whenever you wish to speak, I'll pm you my Yahoo Messenger account name.

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-19, 10:40 AM
Phoenix and Tide: I posted some of my feelings on the Warmarked in the match thread.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-19, 11:07 AM
I saw, and I still disagree.

Mark of Lumi needs a hard cap, as almost every spell does. Variable caps aren't caps, especially when the variable cap is tied to the stat that increases the ability DC. They're at best, guidelines. The ability, as it currently stands, is like a wizard ability that let them sacrifice up to half their spells memorized for 1d6 damage per spell level, fort save half. Nova strikes shouldn't come gift wrapped in a nice, easy, 1 ability package.

But let's look at the ability for balance. At your level, with only mark of the Lumi at its current level, could you likely defeat any number of CR-appropriate enemies, with about a 10 minute rest between each one for the Fast healing the same mark gives you to recover you to full?

Spell cancelling ability is usable at will, every other round, out of the box. It's far more useful than Wings of Cover. 1/encounter per 10 initiator levels? I'd buy. Saving throw or Concentration to negate? I'd buy.

But right now Warmarked has far too much offense/defense/special teams potential. And it can do all three at once, with relatively little optimization.

Incantatrix isn't allowed here. Other ways to hit (Level x4)d6 damage should be as well.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-19, 11:24 AM
Nova strikes shouldn't come gift wrapped in a nice, easy, 1 ability package.
Meh.

Incantatrix isn't allowed here. Other ways to hit (Level x4)d6 damage should be as well.
This is a much stronger statement than the former one ... and to make this true the list would need to get longer, a whole lot longer. There are a lot of ways of doing LOL damage.

imperialspectre
2009-09-19, 11:29 AM
Dude, (4xLvl)d6 damage is easy to hit. Arcane Spellsurge + Twin + Arcane Thesis: Orb that's Not Force via a Sorcerer/Halruaan Elder build, for example, can crank out that much damage fairly easily. Several other damage spells, with Recaster or Halruaan Elder or Mage of the Arcane Order, do effectively more damage than that because they have a higher die size. If you want to figure out several ways to maintain concentration, you can do better than that with fricking Manyjaws - I had a character who did that.

Now, that said, a couple things:

You're probably right on Mark of the Lumi. There should probably be a cap there.

Other than that, though...the lesson to learn from Mark of the Lash is that we're dramatically extending the threat range of even melee combatants. Frankly, the balance problem with spellcasters in combat is that they're effective from almost any range (if they try to be), and have the mobility to control the range of the fight. The way to counteract that is for non-casters to get at least enough mobility to force casters to spend actions on maintaining distance, and the capability to largely negate casters who come into their ideal range.

Since getting two spells per round is largely trivial for casters at the level we're dealing with, the real result of a power like Mark of the Lash is forcing the casters to use their actions strategically, instead of using their actions to bulldoze people who don't get as many actions.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-19, 11:51 AM
Dude, (4xLvl)d6 damage is easy to hit. Arcane Spellsurge + Twin + Arcane Thesis: Orb that's Not Force via a Sorcerer/Halruaan Elder build, for example, can crank out that much damage fairly easily. Several other damage spells, with Recaster or Halruaan Elder or Mage of the Arcane Order, do effectively more damage than that because they have a higher die size. If you want to figure out several ways to maintain concentration, you can do better than that with fricking Manyjaws - I had a character who did that.So you're saying that 2 Feats, multiple spell slots, specific PrC's... Versus an ability and stack con.

I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying it shouldn't be freakin' gift wrapped and given to them out of the box.

"Warmarked? Check! Here's your 400 damage ability."


Now, that said, a couple things:

You're probably right on Mark of the Lumi. There should probably be a cap there. Agreed.


Other than that, though...the lesson to learn from Mark of the Lash is that we're dramatically extending the threat range of even melee combatants. Frankly, the balance problem with spellcasters in combat is that they're effective from almost any range (if they try to be), and have the mobility to control the range of the fight. The way to counteract that is for non-casters to get at least enough mobility to force casters to spend actions on maintaining distance, and the capability to largely negate casters who come into their ideal range. There are many situations where no amount of actions will effectively control distance. Many arena maps qualify for that. The capability to negate is fine. The unavoidable, repeatable capability to negate on a platform easily capable of 1 shotting is another.


Since getting two spells per round is largely trivial for casters at the level we're dealing with, the real result of a power like Mark of the Lash is forcing the casters to use their actions strategically, instead of using their actions to bulldoze people who don't get as many actions.
And getting 2 attacks/full round actions per round is largely trivial for a warmarked, with incredibly easy access to maneuvers that grant exactly that. This is another example where, out of the box, the warmarked gets abilities that the caster has to search for, and cleverly combine.

It's not that it does several of these things.

It does all of them. With 300+ HP, and the ability to laugh off enough spells to get the several 1 shots the build can easily obtain.

Adumbration
2009-09-19, 12:07 PM
Ahh, what the heck. Don't want to aggravate anyone unintentionally.

Lord_Gareth
2009-09-19, 12:13 PM
I was actually thinking Revised Harrowed, minus the bonus feats; the feats are neither finished nor balanced.

sofawall
2009-09-19, 12:16 PM
If something is considered overpowered out of the box in an arena where the point is to defeat other optimized characters, what do you think it will look like in a normal game with merely moderately optimized characters?

Reminds me of another homebrew. Lightning warrior, it was called, I think?

(Note, this is from reading the match and the comments&refutations. I have not yet read the Warmarked, although I'm just about to. I'll be back after reading, possibly with a changed opinion.)

EDIT: To clarify, this post isn't meant to compare the Warmarked to Lightning warrior in anything but the power level.

The point of Warmarked is that it's extremely high-powered, enough so to make him semi-relevant in a party containing a Wizard.

Lord_Gareth
2009-09-19, 12:23 PM
The point of Warmarked is that it's extremely high-powered, enough so to make him semi-relevant in a party containing a Wizard.

Most homebrewers will tell you that balancing relevant to Wizard is number two or three on Worst Homebrew Ideas Ever. So you're aware.

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-19, 12:30 PM
I'd just like to note that the only Warmarked abilities that came into play in that match were pounce, the spell cancellation, the ability to delay save effects, and the ability to fly. Everything else could have been done by a Barbarian 13, and most of these can be obtained through items or race choice anyway.

If I didn't have the save delay ability (the only ability that isn't easily reproduced), I would have given myself a relevant will save (at least +18) at the cost of only 2 feats.

It is up there in power, but I'm not under the impression that the Warmarked is designed for anything other than optmized play.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-19, 12:32 PM
"Warmarked? Check! Here's your 400 damage ability."
Agreed.
There are many situations where no amount of actions will effectively control distance. Many arena maps qualify for that. The capability to negate is fine. The unavoidable, repeatable capability to negate on a platform easily capable of 1 shotting is another.
Unavoidable? I can think of dozens of ways to avoid touch attacks ... AC being the obvious one :)

Doc Roc
2009-09-19, 12:53 PM
Mark of the Lumi has been somewhat nerfed.
Moment of Succor is changed.

The penny dreadful monk is provisionally allowed for early runs as exhibitions only. While many people consider balancing against the wizard evil, we're actually using the sorcerer as our balance point. I come from a very different school of design than the locals here.

Perhaps, Gareth, you would be willing to read the war-marked and then comment?

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-19, 01:06 PM
Adumbration: Ready at the old thread: Here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6958649&posted=1#post6958649).

imperialspectre
2009-09-19, 01:21 PM
Okay, at the top, there is a very important balance consideration that people need to think about. In D&D 3.5, casters have material in almost every single WotC book ever published as a resource to draw from in terms of optimization. In almost every one of those cases, some of that material is mechanically useful - it's strong enough that it can be used to base a combination of some kind. Spell Compendium literally isn't big enough to hold all of it - core, Races of X, Dragon Magic, and a number of the spells in the Completes don't make it in.

This is not the case for melee characters. I could seriously condense all of the useful melee optimization material into a single book, and it wouldn't even be hard. And even with all of that material in play, a melee character (or, for that matter, a ranged non-caster) is inferior to a caster at every single level of optimization (except possibly complete non-optimization, where "I hit him with my longsword" might actually beat "I cast Fireball, centered on myself"). At the highest levels of optimization, I'll see your Hulking Hurler and raise you a Twice-Betrayer of Shar (or an Incantatrix with Superior Invisibility and Mind Blank).

This means that from a design standpoint, any product we produce for non-casters has to be strong out of the box. A "high level of optimization" for a Fighter produces inferior results compared to a "high level of optimization" for a Sorcerer or Favored Soul, which means that the Fighter replacement has to function well at a lower level of optimization to even be competitive.


And getting 2 attacks/full round actions per round is largely trivial for a warmarked, with incredibly easy access to maneuvers that grant exactly that. This is another example where, out of the box, the warmarked gets abilities that the caster has to search for, and cleverly combine.

It's not that it does several of these things.

It does all of them. With 300+ HP, and the ability to laugh off enough spells to get the several 1 shots the build can easily obtain.

2 attack actions, sure. 2 full attacks, no. Seriously, point out a maneuver that gives two full attacks at L13. Doesn't exist. I can get two attack actions a bunch of different ways, but those can ALSO be negated by things that casters have - for one thing, 2 attacks versus a Blink spell is probabilistically identical to only getting 1 attack in a round.

I would be open to an argument that the War-Marked defensive abilities should require a larger action investment - but the one that you were complaining about is an immediate action, which means that it trades off with offense in a manner similar to many defensive spells favored by casters.

Again, how many immediate-action or longer-than-1-round-duration counters or defensive abilities do beatsticks get in 3.5? There are a few save boosters from Diamond Mind, there are a couple attack-negating tricks from Iron Heart + the infamous IHS, and Instantaneous Rage + Imperious Command sorta qualifies if you start out within 30 feet. Other than that, I'm not coming up with anything at all. Compare to the options available to a core-only sorcerer, who can avoid attacks, spells, and a number of other things - and that's without RotD and SpC, both of which are ToS legal in their entirety.


Most homebrewers will tell you that balancing relevant to Wizard is number two or three on Worst Homebrew Ideas Ever. So you're aware.

First off, if "most homebrewers" includes people who are just producing classes they like without doing same-game testing, looking at whether the classes are balanced with regard to the rest of the 3.5 system that they're keeping, etc., then those people are basically right out because they're not producing material that's usable in a RAW 3.5 game.

Second, if you're producing material that's intended to just stick into a 3.5 game, either that material is comparable to at least Beguiler/Crusader power levels or else your material isn't worth anything from a balance standpoint. It doesn't even function in a game that includes a huge range of 3.5 material, including all of the strong material.

Third, if you're trying to rebuild the 3.5 system so that it's better, you have to do one of two things (or else your rebuild sucks from a balance standpoint). Either you have to reduce the power level of casters, or you have to balance your non-casters to the casters' power level. Fax is trying to do the first, and I think he's on the right track in a lot of ways for that approach. Frank and Keith from the Gaming Den tried to do the second, but their Tomes never got finished and we don't like some of the later material.

We're going with an approach that removes the most broken options from 3.5, gives non-casters meaningful options, and doesn't exclude the range of strong, useful material published during 3.5. That means non-casters have to match up to Sorcerers (not Wizards or Archivists, as Tide already mentioned).

So, THIS....IS....GAME DESIGN!!!*


*Tide asked me to say that at least once.

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-19, 01:56 PM
I generally agree, but I'll point out that White Raven Tactics lets you do another full attack.

I disagree with your characterization of homebrew that does not focus on balance. These projects can still be worthwhile contributions to a game, especially if the game isn't optimized to a great extent.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-19, 02:02 PM
I really like the Warmarked...though seeing how much better Claudius's was than mine made me go cry in a corner.

I was beaten by a self considered Tier 3. If that helps at all.

imperialspectre
2009-09-19, 02:13 PM
I disagree with your characterization of homebrew that does not focus on balance. These projects can still be worthwhile contributions to a game, especially if the game isn't optimized to a great extent.

I'm trying to differentiate between RAW games and "non-optimized" games that don't really care that much about balance. If someone is trying to create balanced classes and isn't incorporating the testing and balance considerations above, they're objectively failing at that design goal.

If someone is just trying to create a flavorful class that does [insert cool thing], then they aren't incorporating "balance" as a design goal for their project. That may be fun for them, and their work may be a worthwhile contribution to their own games or games that are run similarly to their own. Their work is, however, not compatible with a 3.5 game based on RAW and including characters making choices geared toward increasing their own survivability/utility ("optimization") - and therefore, design principles on which such work is based are not applicable to the 3.52 project.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-19, 02:57 PM
Okay, at the top, there is a very important balance consideration that people need to think about. In D&D 3.5, casters have material in almost every single WotC book ever published as a resource to draw from in terms of optimization. In almost every one of those cases, some of that material is mechanically useful - it's strong enough that it can be used to base a combination of some kind. Spell Compendium literally isn't big enough to hold all of it - core, Races of X, Dragon Magic, and a number of the spells in the Completes don't make it in. In fairness, about half of spell compendium isn't mechanically useful. The other half is. Remove the dead weight, I'm sure you could get every non-setting-specific thing into 1-2 books.


This is not the case for melee characters. I could seriously condense all of the useful melee optimization material into a single book, and it wouldn't even be hard. And even with all of that material in play, a melee character (or, for that matter, a ranged non-caster) is inferior to a caster at every single level of optimization (except possibly complete non-optimization, where "I hit him with my longsword" might actually beat "I cast Fireball, centered on myself"). At the highest levels of optimization, I'll see your Hulking Hurler and raise you a Twice-Betrayer of Shar (or an Incantatrix with Superior Invisibility and Mind Blank). People here have a heavy level of optimization experience. This might lend well to balancing for high optimization.

It lends very poorly for typical optimization levels. When I can name off half a dozen status effects, and the majority of people on the Warmarked project can rattle off an obscure item costing under 8k gold that protects versus it? That is not the typical knowledge the average player carries. When you look at this class "out of the box", it carries abilities comparable to highly optimized characters. Add that to the fact that the list of choices is short, and it's almost impossible NOT to be a powerhouse with this class.

That's what I'm trying to bring out. In an open field, yeah, the caster may have an edge. In any closed environment, this class is truly a mage-slayer. At low to mid-level, the difference will be substantial. At high level, less so, but there.


This means that from a design standpoint, any product we produce for non-casters has to be strong out of the box. A "high level of optimization" for a Fighter produces inferior results compared to a "high level of optimization" for a Sorcerer or Favored Soul, which means that the Fighter replacement has to function well at a lower level of optimization to even be competitive. D&D has long stuck to certain benchmarks, or approximate power levels that are adhered to. Now, it's possible to circumvent them, but generally, direct damage/save effects are limited to 1d6/level, double that at the absolute maximum. There is a difference between functioning well at low optimization, and functioning at high optimization at low optimization.


2 attack actions, sure. 2 full attacks, no. Seriously, point out a maneuver that gives two full attacks at L13. Doesn't exist. I can get two attack actions a bunch of different ways, but those can ALSO be negated by things that casters have - for one thing, 2 attacks versus a Blink spell is probabilistically identical to only getting 1 attack in a round.Pounce Charge + White Raven Tactics?


I would be open to an argument that the War-Marked defensive abilities should require a larger action investment - but the one that you were complaining about is an immediate action, which means that it trades off with offense in a manner similar to many defensive spells favored by casters. That's exactly the argument I posited earlier. This class is built for action economy. While action economy isn't a bad thing, (Action Economy + Full Initiator Maneuvers + Rock solid vision modes + Rock solid movement modes + great defensive modes + high output damage modes) all on a single chassis? That is a bad thing. There is little investment needed.


Again, how many immediate-action or longer-than-1-round-duration counters or defensive abilities do beatsticks get in 3.5? There are a few save boosters from Diamond Mind, there are a couple attack-negating tricks from Iron Heart + the infamous IHS, and Instantaneous Rage + Imperious Command sorta qualifies if you start out within 30 feet. Other than that, I'm not coming up with anything at all. Compare to the options available to a core-only sorcerer, who can avoid attacks, spells, and a number of other things - and that's without RotD and SpC, both of which are ToS legal in their entirety.There's Mad Foam Rager, for one. That's just off the top of my head. And I'm not as elite an optimizer as some.


First off, if "most homebrewers" includes people who are just producing classes they like without doing same-game testing, looking at whether the classes are balanced with regard to the rest of the 3.5 system that they're keeping, etc., then those people are basically right out because they're not producing material that's usable in a RAW 3.5 game. I understand that we're all confident in our abilities. But the entire point of testing is to identify strengths and weaknesses, and see what needs to be changed. Not to let analysis go in one ear, out the other, and dismiss the field testing of each of our pet projects in the class. For testing to produce quality results, we must approach this with a clinical detachment.


Second, if you're producing material that's intended to just stick into a 3.5 game, either that material is comparable to at least Beguiler/Crusader power levels or else your material isn't worth anything from a balance standpoint. It doesn't even function in a game that includes a huge range of 3.5 material, including all of the strong material.It also needs to be able to scale. The wizard and sorceror are overpowered because every spell opens another option.

Ubercharger is possible because every sourcebook is another piece of the puzzle.

What happens when something gets added to this? Like the combined feats and maneuvers released? It's rather generous in both.


Third, if you're trying to rebuild the 3.5 system so that it's better, you have to do one of two things (or else your rebuild sucks from a balance standpoint). Either you have to reduce the power level of casters, or you have to balance your non-casters to the casters' power level. Fax is trying to do the first, and I think he's on the right track in a lot of ways for that approach. Frank and Keith from the Gaming Den tried to do the second, but their Tomes never got finished and we don't like some of the later material.

We're going with an approach that removes the most broken options from 3.5, gives non-casters meaningful options, and doesn't exclude the range of strong, useful material published during 3.5. That means non-casters have to match up to Sorcerers (not Wizards or Archivists, as Tide already mentioned). Correct. However, currently, this class has capabilities that exceed casters in many ways at low-mid level optimization.

Defending with no action investment? Even casters need to buff. And at mid level optimization, let's not assume MM-reducer Persistent buffs. That limits it to hours/level buffs in most cases. This excludes most detection modes, but not general buffs and some status defenses. Energy Resistance, Stat improvement, Mind-affecting protection, drowning protection, and the like.

It does not include many of the abilities that we take for granted are functioning 24/7 for the warmarked, without action, effort, or limitation. That is why there's an issue.

A warmarked, 50% of the time, can negate most caster's standard actions (low-mid level optimization generally doesn't include multiple spell/round casters until high levels of play (15+), or at least, not without 1 being a weak spell). The other 50%, we have the delay ability. That means that effectively the warmarked has 3 free rounds in such an enviroment.

Surely we can do better. Surely we can build this so that it offers competition for serious optimizers, and still has value for more casual play.

Doc Roc
2009-09-19, 03:05 PM
It does not include many of the abilities that we take for granted are functioning 24/7 for the warmarked, without action, effort, or limitation. That is why there's an issue.

A warmarked, 50% of the time, can negate most caster's standard actions (low-mid level optimization generally doesn't include multiple spell/round casters until high levels of play (15+), or at least, not without 1 being a weak spell). The other 50%, we have the delay ability. That means that effectively the warmarked has 3 free rounds in such an enviroment.

Surely we can do better. Surely we can build this so that it offers competition for serious optimizers, and still has value for more casual play.

I think we can, and I think we will. As I said, I fully expect it to take no less than a week per mark.
There's a good chance this project will run for quite a long time. We have an immense amount of dedicated testing to do.

Aharon
2009-09-19, 03:39 PM
Further Questions concerning Truenamers:
1.) I assume they only get the skill ability of the Item Familiar? Is there a minimum level at which I can take the feat? Normally, you have to use an item worth at least 2000 GP, which wouldn't be available for 1st level characters.
2.) What is your stance on being a member of organisations? Is it allowed at all?
2.a.) If so, the Paragnostic Assembly (or something similar Paragnostic) in Complete Champion is a bit unclearly written. Could you give me a ruling on the +1 Truespeak bonus/hour research this organisation offers? Is it permanent, or do you have to study 5 hours each time you wish to obtain it? If so, how long does it last?
(Addendum: it seems to be a commonly used interpretation that it is an instanteous bonus that lasts forever, both Zaq (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114269) and Bonzai (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872942/CO_Diary_Truenamer?post_id=346679593#346679593) report using that ruling.)
3.) What is your stance on alternative magic items (Complete Arcane)? One of the substitutions for potions are ceramic tiles, which have to be broken to have an effect. How would that interact with the Rebuild Item utterance from the Lexicon of the Crafted Tool?
4.) In the section about effective spell level, it is mentioned that you can heighten Utterances by applying +4 to the DC of your Truespeak check. In the Section about the Law of Sequence, it is stated that you can use higher level versions of utterances while lower level ones are in effect. This is (as the example makes clear) intended to clarify that you can use, for example, Word of Nurturing and Minor Word of Nurturing at the same time. But, RAW, it would allow you to gain, for example, the benefits of 4 Universal aptitudes at the same time, if you spend 4 rounds using one and heightened versions in following rounds. It would also change the progression of the DCs from
15+2xCR, 15+2xCR+2, 15+2xCR+4, 15+2xCR+6, 15+2xCR+8, 15+2xCR+10 etc. to
15+2xCR, 15+2xCR+2, 15+2xCR+4, 15+2xCR+4, 15+2xCR+6, 15+2xCR+6, etc.

Would you go with that ruling, or take the standard one to be correct?

5.) The above ruling would also have a curious interaction with Boost Spell-like Ability and Mortalbane from BoVD. Per the Rules, every Utterance is a seperate spell-like ability, and higher-level versions of the same utterance count as seperate spell-like abilities. That would mean that BSA and Mortalbane essentially improve every single utterance you use with a save/damage.

Slightly silly question, but I'm not entirely sure about the RAW, and there might be feats that require expending spells (not arcane or divine), which Utterances could be used with then. So:

6.) How do Utterances interact with other abilities? In the Tome of Magic, p. 233, it is stated that they have an effective spell level for interacting with spells and other abilities, such as Globe of Invulnerability. Do other abilities include those offered by feats?


That's it for now, but I'm still looking through my books :smallsmile:

Hope it's not too much work for you.

Thanks and best regards,

Aharon

imperialspectre
2009-09-19, 03:46 PM
D&D has long stuck to certain benchmarks, or approximate power levels that are adhered to. Now, it's possible to circumvent them, but generally, direct damage/save effects are limited to 1d6/level, double that at the absolute maximum. There is a difference between functioning well at low optimization, and functioning at high optimization at low optimization.

This is probably the most important thing in your post, and I want to address it specifically.

Part of the problem with 3.5 is that the "benchmarks" for casters and non-casters are fundamentally different.

Part of the problem with the War-Marked as it currently stands is that we haven't incorporated clear benchmarks for specific abilities. That's something that has to change pretty quickly, and we'd appreciate your help in that area.


That's exactly the argument I posited earlier. This class is built for action economy. While action economy isn't a bad thing, (Action Economy + Full Initiator Maneuvers + Rock solid vision modes + Rock solid movement modes + great defensive modes + high output damage modes) all on a single chassis? That is a bad thing. There is little investment needed.

Remember that if you're going for initiating maneuvers, you have to either spend a feat per non-refreshable maneuver (Martial Study) or take levels in a class that isn't War-Marked. The class doesn't grant any maneuvers itself. This means that you're directly trading maneuvers for other things that would increase your offensive abilities, and vice versa.

The vision and movement modes seriously should be always-on. By Level 10, any caster who really wants to be flying all the time probably can be. Frankly, at that level, anyone SHOULD be able to leap tall buildings/fly/however you want to fluff it. And the vision modes that marks grant are usually either short-range or duplicates of long-duration spells - the only ability that grants True Seeing starts at 12th level, and True Seeing is a fairly long-duration spell anyway (120 minutes when it's first accessed by arcane casters is a long time by anyone's measure, especially with the speed at which things progress at that level).

Now, you're probably right that a lot more of the defensive abilities should take immediate actions to initiate. But they need to be available through marks, because there's no other way for non-casters to access most of those abilities, and those abilities are the only way for characters to function at higher levels. And since casters have a much higher ability to control the terms of when a fight starts, the non-casters can't afford to be spending standard actions "buffing up" (nor does that really make sense from an IC perspective).


I understand that we're all confident in our abilities. But the entire point of testing is to identify strengths and weaknesses, and see what needs to be changed. Not to let analysis go in one ear, out the other, and dismiss the field testing of each of our pet projects in the class. For testing to produce quality results, we must approach this with a clinical detachment.

If you feel I'm being dismissive of the testing results, I'm really sorry. Part of the reason that the last post was relatively polemic in nature was because it was dealing with a basic question of design philosophy that a lot of people on this site don't appear to "get." If that overall philosophy isn't clear, then nothing else we're doing makes sense.

We've already made a lot of changes in abilities that weren't working. If there's a clear problem in any part of the marks, the plan is to rip out anything that can't be fixed and put it back together better. If you have ideas for improvements, we can talk about them in the War-Marked thread, in chat rooms, or via comments on the class page.


Defending with no action investment? Even casters need to buff. And at mid level optimization, let's not assume MM-reducer Persistent buffs. That limits it to hours/level buffs in most cases. This excludes most detection modes, but not general buffs and some status defenses. Energy Resistance, Stat improvement, Mind-affecting protection, drowning protection, and the like.

See Invis and True Seeing both have 10 min./lvl buffs, meaning that extending them at mid-levels (10-12) puts them in play for a sizable chunk of anyone's adventuring day. Blindsense is available as long as you want it from a Diamond Mind stance (comes online around 10th level). And getting any of these abilities from a mark involves tradeoffs with offensive abilities.

I think maybe a better approach to detection modes would be to evaluate what spell level they equate to, so that a mark that comes online around L8 would only give 2nd level or lower detection modes, while a mark ability that comes online around L13 would be able to access higher-level detection modes. We can take more concrete examples up in the appropriate threads or discussion areas.

The bottom line is that I agree with you that some level of action investment should be required for many of the defensive and utility abilities that War-Marked get. Some of them, on the other hand, should always have been available to non-casters, and we shouldn't be shy about making those available.


There's Mad Foam Rager, for one. That's just off the top of my head. And I'm not as elite an optimizer as some.

I think I've mentioned that, in our view, barbarians are the most effective non-casters in 3.5 in terms of filling their intended role. While they get some buffs from 3.52, the buffs are mostly later on in the class progression and not really that large. They get hardly anything from the War-Marked side of things, so I'd hope that the barbarian-exclusive feats are good.


A warmarked, 50% of the time, can negate most caster's standard actions (low-mid level optimization generally doesn't include multiple spell/round casters until high levels of play (15+), or at least, not without 1 being a weak spell). The other 50%, we have the delay ability. That means that effectively the warmarked has 3 free rounds in such an enviroment.

Surely we can do better. Surely we can build this so that it offers competition for serious optimizers, and still has value for more casual play.

So help us out on that one. We'll listen to anyone. At least, we'll listen to anyone who makes as much of an effort to flesh out a critique as you have. :smallsmile:

PinkysBrain
2009-09-19, 04:11 PM
direct damage/save effects are limited to 1d6/level
There aren't any metamelee rods of maximize though.

low-mid level optimization generally doesn't include multiple spell/round casters until high levels of play (15+), or at least, not without 1 being a weak spell).
With low-mid level optimization hold person is not a weak spell.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-19, 04:26 PM
There aren't any metamelee rods of maximize though.I believe the Feat you're looking for is "Power Attack". :smallbiggrin:

With low-mid level optimization hold person is not a weak spell.
Situational. Allows a save every round, only affects humanoids. Powerful when it works, but so much is immune to it, and a commonly sought out DMG item stops it cold (Ring of FOM).

Good when it works, but hardly a guaranteed must have fight ender.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-19, 04:46 PM
Part of the problem with 3.5 is that the "benchmarks" for casters and non-casters are fundamentally different. Across the board, whether it's warmind, initiator, or caster, there are certain dice caps to damage. Starting at or near those may provide a good starting point. From there, it can be tweaked as needed.


Part of the problem with the War-Marked as it currently stands is that we haven't incorporated clear benchmarks for specific abilities. That's something that has to change pretty quickly, and we'd appreciate your help in that area. I've been mulling things over. I'll say more when I see more. As is, we haven't even gotten to capstone abilities, and this class is lookin beefy.


Remember that if you're going for initiating maneuvers, you have to either spend a feat per non-refreshable maneuver (Martial Study) or take levels in a class that isn't War-Marked. The class doesn't grant any maneuvers itself. This means that you're directly trading maneuvers for other things that would increase your offensive abilities, and vice versa. 1 level of initiator would do it, as the warmarked levels stack for IL.


The vision and movement modes seriously should be always-on. By Level 10, any caster who really wants to be flying all the time probably can be. That's an example of a bit of a disconnect. Movement, I can see. Vision, not so much. Perhaps an ability that hints when things should be turned on (Spot check at DC 10+HD of creature? Require some skill investment?)
Frankly, at that level, anyone SHOULD be able to leap tall buildings/fly/however you want to fluff it. And the vision modes that marks grant are usually either short-range or duplicates of long-duration spells - the only ability that grants True Seeing starts at 12th level, and True Seeing is a fairly long-duration spell anyway (120 minutes when it's first accessed by arcane casters is a long time by anyone's measure, especially with the speed at which things progress at that level). [/quote]Then 2 hours at a time, a couple times a day would be reasonable for Warmarked too. It's a long time by anyone's measure, especially concerning that speed.


Now, you're probably right that a lot more of the defensive abilities should take immediate actions to initiate. But they need to be available through marks, because there's no other way for non-casters to access most of those abilities, and those abilities are the only way for characters to function at higher levels. And since casters have a much higher ability to control the terms of when a fight starts, the non-casters can't afford to be spending standard actions "buffing up" (nor does that really make sense from an IC perspective). I can see each mark offering a Constant effect, commisserate with a long term buff, a swift/immediate action short term buff/counter (on the round/level stage), and a move/standard action special ability. Outsider marks, possibly an instantaneous action as well.


If you feel I'm being dismissive of the testing results, I'm really sorry. Part of the reason that the last post was relatively polemic in nature was because it was dealing with a basic question of design philosophy that a lot of people on this site don't appear to "get." If that overall philosophy isn't clear, then nothing else we're doing makes sense. Not intentionally. I think that some people may be too vigorous in defending aspects of their creation, personal attachment and all. I wanted this out beforehand. The class may need a vision, but the design philosophy needs a thoroughly open mind.


We've already made a lot of changes in abilities that weren't working. If there's a clear problem in any part of the marks, the plan is to rip out anything that can't be fixed and put it back together better. If you have ideas for improvements, we can talk about them in the War-Marked thread, in chat rooms, or via comments on the class page. Heading there shortly.

See Invis and True Seeing both have 10 min./lvl buffs, meaning that extending them at mid-levels (10-12) puts them in play for a sizable chunk of anyone's adventuring day. Blindsense is available as long as you want it from a Diamond Mind stance (comes online around 10th level). And getting any of these abilities from a mark involves tradeoffs with offensive abilities. Yeah, but these both require significant resources to keep up for an entire adventuring day. If 3.52 is also to stop the Nova/rest 22 hours MMM philosophy, these concepts need rethinking as well.


I think maybe a better approach to detection modes would be to evaluate what spell level they equate to, so that a mark that comes online around L8 would only give 2nd level or lower detection modes, while a mark ability that comes online around L13 would be able to access higher-level detection modes. We can take more concrete examples up in the appropriate threads or discussion areas. Can do.


The bottom line is that I agree with you that some level of action investment should be required for many of the defensive and utility abilities that War-Marked get. Some of them, on the other hand, should always have been available to non-casters, and we shouldn't be shy about making those available. Yup. The trick lies in seperating them.


I think I've mentioned that, in our view, barbarians are the most effective non-casters in 3.5 in terms of filling their intended role. While they get some buffs from 3.52, the buffs are mostly later on in the class progression and not really that large. They get hardly anything from the War-Marked side of things, so I'd hope that the barbarian-exclusive feats are good. LOL, I'd like to see barbarian rage as a Alternate Class Feature, as most fantasy barbs don't get mad and hit stuff harder.


So help us out on that one. We'll listen to anyone. At least, we'll listen to anyone who makes as much of an effort to flesh out a critique as you have. :smallsmile:
Will be over to the more concrete areas shortly. This was an after battle report that kinda blew up. :smallwink:

PinkysBrain
2009-09-19, 05:20 PM
Situational. Allows a save every round, only affects humanoids. Powerful when it works, but so much is immune to it, and a commonly sought out DMG item stops it cold (Ring of FOM).
Which is more expensive than a metamagic rod of quicken, for which allowing you 3 freebie hold persons is only a small part of it's potential.

Good when it works, but hardly a guaranteed must have fight ender.
I didn't say it was, I said it wasn't a weak spell in a low/mid optimized game. Any decent chance of ending the fight with it makes it not weak considering the resource investment (35K for 3/day).

Doc Roc
2009-09-19, 09:28 PM
I just ended a CR 7 encounter with grease, for a bit of a reminder on what happens when you hit-and-stick an SoS.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-19, 09:57 PM
Which is more expensive than a metamagic rod of quicken, for which allowing you 3 freebie hold persons is only a small part of it's potential.And a ring of FoM protects against much more than Hold Person. Several environmental hazards, many control spells from second to 7th level. So for that buck, you get a lot more bang than a protection versus a low level Save or Lose.


I didn't say it was, I said it wasn't a weak spell in a low/mid optimized game. Any decent chance of ending the fight with it makes it not weak considering the resource investment (35K for 3/day).
Decent? 15 types that the spell is useless against, 1 type that's useful. Humanoids are one of the common types, but then, so are outsiders, and undead.

It has a decent chance of being effective once or twice every couple days. Perhaps worth keeping on a spell list. But not up there with the likes of Web, or Stinking Cloud for CC. Both can effectively remove multiple foes from combat, one of which is also an effective defense versus ranged attacks. Not weak? I'll give you. Strong? Not so much. It qualifies as "situational" for me. In arena combats? A good deal better, as there are limited nonhumanoids out there to use (Jermlaine and Elan spring to mind, as does Goliath, aasimar, tiefling, and necropolitan).

Doc Roc
2009-09-19, 10:00 PM
Forgot Neraph! :)
I find anything from limbo interestin'

Human Paragon 3
2009-09-19, 10:34 PM
Well, I just feebleminded Lvl 1 Sharnian, so that bout is now essentially over.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-20, 01:09 AM
You never know...Ive had two battles where I easily could have won after I was feebleminded...only missing for 6 turns in a row due to concealment kept me from dealing 130 damage.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-20, 02:04 AM
It qualifies as "situational" for me. In arena combats? A good deal better, as there are limited nonhumanoids out there to use (Jermlaine and Elan spring to mind, as does Goliath, aasimar, tiefling, and necropolitan).
Those however are not low/mid level optimization ... unlike that metamagic rod of quicken, which will allow the low/mid level optimized caster to get save or suck spells off as swift actions. Which are not weak spells.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-20, 02:30 AM
Well, my character lost because I forgot to bring a ranged weapon...probably would have lost anyway though, not being able to melee is a killer for Tallis...

Im going to make another Warmarked now.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-20, 09:34 AM
feebleminded..., every casters worst fear

Can you counterspell if you can't see somebody?

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-20, 09:40 AM
Those however are not low/mid level optimization ... unlike that metamagic rod of quicken, which will allow the low/mid level optimized caster to get save or suck spells off as swift actions. Which are not weak spells.

Elan Psion and Goliath Barbarian both fit in the mid-level optimization category, depending on what else is used. Metamagic rods of quicken are generally also mid-level optimization (low includes extend, and maximize).

Outside of mid level optimization are things like uberchargers, metamagic reducer casters, killer gnomes. Generally Tier 4 characters or lower qualify as "light optimization".

imperialspectre
2009-09-20, 10:26 AM
Shadowcraft Gnome isn't really beyond mid-level optimization in and of itself. The Beguiler version in particular just moves the Beguiler up a tier, and the Wizard version that abuses Arcane Disciple and Residual Magic is the only one that actually goes up into high-level optimization.

Other than that, Phoenix is pretty much right on the above issue.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-20, 11:32 AM
Shadowcraft Gnome isn't really beyond mid-level optimization in and of itself. The Beguiler version in particular just moves the Beguiler up a tier, and the Wizard version that abuses Arcane Disciple and Residual Magic is the only one that actually goes up into high-level optimization.

Other than that, Phoenix is pretty much right on the above issue.

Killer Gnome isn't just "shadowcraft gnome". It's the other PrC's and feats that let you cast miracle out of 3rd level spell slots. Anytime you're casting 9th level divine spells out of arcane slots of 7-8 or lower? That's high levels of optimization.

By itself, you're right, shadowcraft mage isn't high optimization.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-20, 11:48 AM
Elan Psion and Goliath Barbarian both fit in the mid-level optimization category, depending on what else is used. Metamagic rods of quicken are generally also mid-level optimization (low includes extend, and maximize).
Sure, but which leaves still a very high chance of running into a humanoid.

Hold person isn't the only iconic SoS you could expect to be quickened by someone playing on the optimization level of iconic characters ... slow isn't complete ineffective either. Even if they just use it for damage it's 12d6 (minus 10 probably). An extra level 1-3 spells per round simply isn't weak even if you stick to the immediately obvious stuff.

Even at the lowest end of the spectrum stuff like contingency and metamagic rods already inflate caster action budgets once you get far above level 10 ... so so should homebrew classes.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-20, 12:17 PM
Sure, but which leaves still a very high chance of running into a humanoid.Look at the monster manual. PC's don't normally interact with other PC's only. Typically, Ogres, Mindflayers, giants, aboleths, chokers, treants, dryads, black pudding, pixies, dragons, and many other creatures are faced, along with humanoids. For every humanoid entry in the MM's, there's typically 9-10 that aren't.


Hold person isn't the only iconic SoS you could expect to be quickened by someone playing on the optimization level of iconic characters ... slow isn't complete ineffective either. Even if they just use it for damage it's 12d6 (minus 10 probably). An extra level 1-3 spells per round simply isn't weak even if you stick to the immediately obvious stuff.

Even at the lowest end of the spectrum stuff like contingency and metamagic rods already inflate caster action budgets once you get far above level 10 ... so so should homebrew classes.

What you're not grasping is that caster action budgets are increased at a cost. The homebrew class action budget is increased for free. There should always be a cost to increase action economy. Always. Whether it's +4 spell level, expended spell slots, a decent chunk of gold for limited usage, or what have you, there is always a cost (at least, at low-mid optimization. High optimization bends that rule). If action economy comes at the cost of penalties, status effects, etc, I'd be cool. For example, if homebrew could turn a swift action to immediate or immediate to instantaneous at the cost of fatigue for a certain amount of time, that's fine. That's a cost for the action economy.

If it was an item that offered limited access to that ability for free, that's fine. That's a cost.

Doc Roc
2009-09-20, 12:53 PM
This isn't necessarily true, PR. A number of extremely good swift or immediate action spells exist, many of them dominant in the extreme. If we expand it to include powers, then there are a great many things that a caster can do, effectively for free. Temporal Acceleration is a superb example coming online at 11th, and fully online at 13th.

In the case of war-marked, much of the cost comes from the fact that you must invest very deeply in being a war-marked. You get an extraordinarily limited set of generally strong options. I won't disagree, however, that there are a number of effects that need to be moved from non-actions to swift or immediate actions. The issue is that right now, we just need a lot more data.

I'm prepared to move on an ability-by-ability basis. If the weight of testing suggests that I'm an idiot, which it very well may, we'll start to make large scale changes to the over-all structure of the war-marked. Right now though, we need to know more.

imperialspectre
2009-09-20, 01:02 PM
What you're not grasping is that caster action budgets are increased at a cost. The homebrew class action budget is increased for free. There should always be a cost to increase action economy. Always. Whether it's +4 spell level, expended spell slots, a decent chunk of gold for limited usage, or what have you, there is always a cost (at least, at low-mid optimization. High optimization bends that rule). If action economy comes at the cost of penalties, status effects, etc, I'd be cool. For example, if homebrew could turn a swift action to immediate or immediate to instantaneous at the cost of fatigue for a certain amount of time, that's fine. That's a cost for the action economy.

If it was an item that offered limited access to that ability for free, that's fine. That's a cost.

The problem is that casters effectively have a much larger budget than non-casters because casters generally are less MAD, virtually never need to invest much into weapons, and have spells (often low-level ones) to duplicate many of the things that non-casters have to spend money on.

So sure, casters make trade-offs in terms of what abilities they want to emphasize. But they are, in general, either making trade-offs between good options and really bad options (Stinking Cloud vs. Fireball) or making trade-offs between various ways to get good things (Rod of Quicken vs. Runestaff with Arcane Spellsurge vs. three Belts of Battle).

The bottom line is that you're right that non-caster homebrew should have costs for accessing the action economy. But those costs are only balanced if the non-caster homebrew has ways to access a bunch of the things that casters get essentially for free (i.e., as class features that don't have any gp cost attached).

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-20, 01:40 PM
This isn't necessarily true, PR. A number of extremely good swift or immediate action spells exist, many of them dominant in the extreme. If we expand it to include powers, then there are a great many things that a caster can do, effectively for free. Temporal Acceleration is a superb example coming online at 11th, and fully online at 13th.

In the case of war-marked, much of the cost comes from the fact that you must invest very deeply in being a war-marked. You get an extraordinarily limited set of generally strong options. I won't disagree, however, that there are a number of effects that need to be moved from non-actions to swift or immediate actions. The issue is that right now, we just need a lot more data.

I'm prepared to move on an ability-by-ability basis. If the weight of testing suggests that I'm an idiot, which it very well may, we'll start to make large scale changes to the over-all structure of the war-marked. Right now though, we need to know more.

Immediate and swift actions still have a cost. You only get 1 immediate/swift action normally. There is no such limit on Instantaneous actions. If we look at what an instantaneous action is, it's most comparable to things which require no thought or effort. Speaking. Breathing (such as taking a breath before going underwater, to allow you to hold your breath). To this effect, they should likely be kept defensive in nature, and something that the body can do practically on its own, with practice. I'm currently working on a mark, when I have it looking good by my reckoning, I'll submit it for critique.

Doc Roc
2009-09-20, 04:56 PM
Immediate and swift actions still have a cost. You only get 1 immediate/swift action normally. There is no such limit on Instantaneous actions. If we look at what an instantaneous action is, it's most comparable to things which require no thought or effort. Speaking. Breathing (such as taking a breath before going underwater, to allow you to hold your breath). To this effect, they should likely be kept defensive in nature, and something that the body can do practically on its own, with practice. I'm currently working on a mark, when I have it looking good by my reckoning, I'll submit it for critique.

Agree completely. Offensive effects should never be linked to instantaneous actions. Any place they are is probably a failure on my part. :smallbiggrin:

My exception would be Mark of the Grasp, because canceling FoM is something that must be made to stick if the mark is to be useful at all.

Human Paragon 3
2009-09-20, 06:19 PM
Hey. Just won my first dungeon qualifier and have a couple questions. I heard we get a day at sigil to relax before being taken to the dungeon. Does that mean I can buy and sell items? How much can I sell the items I looted off my fallen foe for?

He spent a good chunk of change on a tome, which I assume is useless to me since he read (consumed) it.

Also, what's the deal with consumables in the dungeon? Do they re-appear if you respawn?

And lastly, any idea when the new dungeon will start? It looks like most of the DMs are pretty tied up at the moment.


EDIT: I also heard somewhere that teleportation effects, planeshifting effetcs, ethereal jaunting and the like don't work in the dungeon? Is that right?

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-20, 06:46 PM
Agree completely. Offensive effects should never be linked to instantaneous actions. Any place they are is probably a failure on my part. :smallbiggrin:

My exception would be Mark of the Grasp, because canceling FoM is something that must be made to stick if the mark is to be useful at all.

Could be made an instantaneous action that focused on the warmark. Any grapple the warmark initiates on that turn are rolled normally, regardless of magic or other special abilities that would normally prevent or provide automatic successes on grapples. That way, the target still keeps FoM. It just doesn't do squat against the Warmarked.

Doc Roc
2009-09-20, 06:53 PM
Could be made an instantaneous action that focused on the warmark. Any grapple the warmark initiates on that turn are rolled normally, regardless of magic or other special abilities that would normally prevent or provide automatic successes on grapples. That way, the target still keeps FoM. It just doesn't do squat against the Warmarked.

That would pretty much be an ideal wording.. hum

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-20, 07:47 PM
Hey, guys? The ToS Monkening test needs a new Aspect Druid because ours dropped.

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-20, 07:53 PM
Sorry I have not been of much use lately with regards to sheet checking. I have an awful lot of schoolwork and I've not been able to access my books (my roommates would probably beat me to death with a keg if they knew I played D&D, so I left them home). Once things clear up a bit I'll get to work on those approvals.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-20, 08:09 PM
Hey, guys? The ToS Monkening test needs a new Aspect Druid because ours dropped.

Im not the most experianced druid-ish person, but I'd definitely do it if theres no one else.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-20, 08:15 PM
Alright, if you're interested, talk to Saph. I can give you the sheet and specs of the old druid and let you control him for now (hint: Summon a damn unicorn) but after that, you may be able to make on as you choose.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-20, 08:46 PM
Ok, I'll PM Saph to see if I should start.

EDIT: I HATE having to buy specific weapons for my build to work. Its getting really expensive.
EDIT: With about 100k more, and the Dragonwraught-no-get-epic-feats fix revoked, this guy could destroy the moon. With a crossbow. ...Actually, put like that, it doesnt sound that impressive.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-20, 09:06 PM
Keep in mind, it's core-only, with the exception that Druids must use the Aspect Druid variant.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-20, 09:10 PM
Not that character, sorry...Test of Spite Warmarked.

I'll start building him once I get conformation from Saph. I'll probably just run Dok for the rest of the encounter, and then find my character somewhere nearby while Dok consoles the disheartened Preists of Pelor :smalltongue:

EDIT: Anyone want to face my Warmarked?

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-20, 09:34 PM
I'll go against him with my psion.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-20, 09:55 PM
OK, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6968457#post6968457)'s the thread.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-20, 10:03 PM
Ok, I'll PM Saph to see if I should start.

EDIT: I HATE having to buy specific weapons for my build to work. Its getting really expensive.
EDIT: With about 100k more, and the Dragonwraught-no-get-epic-feats fix revoked, this guy could destroy the moon. With a crossbow. ...Actually, put like that, it doesnt sound that impressive.


Dragonwrought kobolds can get epic feats now??? Awesome!!!

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-20, 10:04 PM
No, they cant, thats what I meant by that (sorry, I wasnt clear)

Doc Roc
2009-09-20, 10:38 PM
Battle Jump is now banned.

ex cathedra
2009-09-20, 10:58 PM
Isis, my 3.52 monk dev character, has been vetted and is now ready to face challengers. Anyone have a free character?

9mm
2009-09-20, 11:19 PM
Isis, my 3.52 monk dev character, has been vetted and is now ready to face challengers. Anyone have a free character?

sure, just not tonight, slade or boomer?

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-20, 11:59 PM
So, how's everyone doin' this evening?

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-21, 12:18 AM
Im back at the fight, sorry.

Doc Roc
2009-09-21, 12:22 AM
Stairways, Reloaded (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6969281#post6969281)
An old friend returns! Hope you guys enjoy this, it's a fight between a War-marked and a 10-Level Monk.

If you want to reuse the map, please rehost it or you'll crack my poor little bandwidth in half.

Doc Roc
2009-09-21, 01:30 AM
Lightning Maces is now banned, with an exception for exhibition matches only for Olo's current character presuming disclosure. Additionally...

Congratulations, both of you. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6968457#post6968457)

And welcome to the hall of fame.

9mm
2009-09-21, 07:50 AM
Lightning Maces is now banned, with an exception for exhibition matches only for Olo's current character presuming disclosure. Additionally...

Congratulations, both of you. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6968457#post6968457)

And welcome to the hall of fame.

... But I JUST FINISHED UPDATING SLADE!

... balls, Slade, master of the one round fight, withdrawn.

edit: Olo really needs to stop killing himself...

FinalJustice
2009-09-21, 08:03 AM
Lightning Maces is now banned, with an exception for exhibition matches only for Olo's current character presuming disclosure. Additionally...

Congratulations, both of you. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6968457#post6968457)

And welcome to the hall of fame.

That match was a pile of pure, undiluted awesome.

Aharon
2009-09-21, 08:05 AM
Tidesinger,

perhaps you didn't see my questions in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6959598&postcount=441) post?

Some more added:
7) Are the +4 circumstance bonus for using your personal truename mentioned on page 233 and the +4 unnamed bonus for the Class/Prestige Class abilities Known personal truename the same?
CustServ ruled so, but it's CustServ...

8) Do the unnamed boni for "Known Personal Truename" from Truenamer, Acolyte of the Ego and that Monk PrC stack?
The Sages ruling on the similar case of the AC boni from Monk, Swordsage and Ninja would indicate this, but I thought asking doesn't hurt - I think the ruling could go both ways and wanted to know yours.

9) Can you UMD Runestaves?

10) On page 233, under "Target", it says that "You must be able to see your target (or at least perceive it in some other way that gets you as much information as sight.)". What information is sufficient for this purpose? Does it suffice to pinpoint the target via listening?

11) Can somebody under the effect of slow still take immediate, swift and free actions?

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-21, 08:50 AM
10) On page 233, under "Target", it says that "You must be able to see your target (or at least perceive it in some other way that gets you as much information as sight.)". What information is sufficient for this purpose? Does it suffice to pinpoint the target via listening?Pinpointing (whether by listen check, scent, blindsense, or what have you) still grants the target total concealment (50% miss chance). Blindsight, Touchsight, or some other way that offers you the ability to attack without penalty should suffice, I think.

That's the only one I'm versed enough to answer with any degree of assuredness.

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-21, 09:50 AM
I agree with Phoenix on the concealment thing.

You only have one personal truename and you can only know it once. The bonuses don't stack.

Runestaves can be UMD'd. UMD would only let you act as if you had the spells on your list, though; you still need a spell slot to power it.

Slow keeps you from taking swift and immediate actions.

As usual, Tidesinger can overrule me.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-21, 10:28 AM
That Slow ruling pretty much makes FoM or a Ring of FoM required for all participants. Well, either that, or Rings of spellstoring with haste.

Human Paragon 3
2009-09-21, 11:17 AM
DMs:

If I polymorph into a tiny scorpion, can I still wear and use a magic belt? The polymorph spell says you can still use items in your new form and that they change size to fit you, as long as you still have the appropriate body slot. In my opinion, a tiny scorpion would not be able to use a ring because he doesn't have fingers, but a belt should be usable because he does have an abdomin for it to fasten around.

Lord_Gareth
2009-09-21, 01:12 PM
@Tidesinger: I'll take a look at the War-Marked, but I do believe that our play styles are going to lead to some friction in our reviews; my general philosiphy involves banning large segments of RAW rather than dealing with the optimization problems. Thusly, I don't balance my classes relevant to Wizards/Sorcerers/just about any Tier 3 class. Incidentally, as far as the Witch Doctor is concerned, I'm aiming for Tier 2.

Any verdict on using the Revised Harrowed (minus Bonus Feats/any Harrowed Feats at all)?

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-21, 01:12 PM
Juris:
Keep in mind that most forms of Polymorph are banned. If you do have a way to turn into a scorpion, you would have:

-Arm slots as normal
-A belt slot
-No head or throat slot, and a face slot seems unlikely
-No ring slots
-Feet slots as normal
-Almost surprisingly, you'd have a hands slot
-Torso, shoulders, and body slots as normal.

I'm using the MIC as a guide here.
Tide: How's that Streamers rewrite coming along? I have a character who uses them, so I was wondering if they could be maximized.

I'd also suggest limiting the Streamers' trigger condition to move, standard, immediate, swift, and full round actions to prevent people from (for example) trying to make you take damage from your free spot/listen checks or from making knowledge checks. Maybe some free actions or instantaneous actions can be included, though.

Human Paragon 3
2009-09-21, 01:41 PM
CM:

What about eye slot? A scorpion does have eyes, so I see no reason that an item such as eyes of the eagle should cease to function. And I do have a legal way of polymorphing into a tiny scorpion.

Wings of Peace
2009-09-21, 01:43 PM
That match was a pile of pure, undiluted awesome.

This is what we get if we go into the forests of the midwest and build an illegal distillery for purifying awesome. What class was Olo playing that got a gun? Or was he just using guns and I'm radically out of date on my list of weapons in D&D(A very powerful possibility.)

ex cathedra
2009-09-21, 01:44 PM
This is what we get if we go into the forests of the midwest and create an illegal distillery for purifying awsome. What class was Olo playing that got a gun? Or was he just using guns and I'm radically out of date on my list of weapons in D&D(A very powerful possibility.)

Hand crossbows.

Guns and other renaissance-era+ weapons are included in core, iirc, though.

Edit:

Speaking of which, are Antimatter Rifles cool to use?

Doc Roc
2009-09-21, 02:11 PM
Speaking of which, are Antimatter Rifles cool to use?

D20 modern != anything wholesome or good.
No.

ex cathedra
2009-09-21, 02:17 PM
But it's core. :smallredface:

Fine, then. Pistols/Muskets?

IthilanorStPete
2009-09-21, 02:29 PM
How was he getting a decent sized threat range with guns hand crossbows? 19-20 base, x3 from Improved Critical and Disciple of Dispater = 15-20 range, which doesn't seem like enough to be getting as many extra attacks as he was.

Arakune
2009-09-21, 02:29 PM
But it's core. :smallredface:

Yeah! And core is totaly and absolutely balanced :smallannoyed:








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