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Signmaker
2009-09-21, 02:33 PM
How was he getting a decent sized threat range with guns hand crossbows? 19-20 base, x3 from Improved Critical and Disciple of Dispater = 15-20 range, which doesn't seem like enough to be getting as many extra attacks as he was.

Splitting. Doubles his attack rolls which increases his threat probability by quite a bit.

IthilanorStPete
2009-09-21, 02:33 PM
Splitting. Doubles his attack rolls which increases his threat probability by quite a bit.

Ah, thanks.

ex cathedra
2009-09-21, 02:34 PM
How was he getting a decent sized threat range with guns hand crossbows? 19-20 base, x3 from Improved Critical and Disciple of Dispater = 15-20 range, which doesn't seem like enough to be getting as many extra attacks as he was.

As I recall, 13-20 Splitting Aptitude Hand Crossbows.

Reflavored as guns. At least, it seems to be this way.

Signmaker
2009-09-21, 02:40 PM
Reflavored as guns. At least, it seems to be this way.

But of course. Desperado Spam is the way to go with Gunslingers.

ex cathedra
2009-09-21, 02:41 PM
But of course. Desperado Spam is the way to go with Gunslingers.

Honestly. Olo has less inherent AoE, though. If slightly more range. But really, who would use anything other than pistols?

It's no sinx, though.

Signmaker
2009-09-21, 02:57 PM
We don't speak of Sinx. Ever.

It's just not fair to the nontrig classes. But yeah, Gunslinger was my favorite class for mobbing. Could take out any MvP while ignoring its summons, so I used mine to loot for my other characters. Like my Gypsy.

ex cathedra
2009-09-21, 03:01 PM
Yeah, desperado was wonderful on mobs. I would generally pvp with clowns and sins, and mvp with champs. This has been wonderfully off topic, though.

Jalor
2009-09-21, 04:41 PM
Hey, I checked p115 of PHB2 and Planning is listed as one of Wee Jas's domains. I'm probably going to dust off my unfinished Windicator and implement that.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-21, 04:58 PM
That was an awesome fight. Does anyone know the ubercharger damage record...I think 44756 damage beats most of them...

Now Im going to update so that I can actually go NI infinite...not truly infinite though.

Signmaker
2009-09-21, 05:19 PM
Other than the fey feats featured in that one wizards article, are there any others that would be useful? My killoren has a lack of feats chosen, and I kind of like the idea of fey feats.

Arakune
2009-09-21, 06:04 PM
Edit: Aparently it was something else, but out of memory it was around 10^...^10~20. It was quite ridiculous.

Edit: this was the link that dealt the insane damage. It's out of reach, however (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=895987)

Edit2:The exact quote



Gideon_Gideonson
07-29-07, 11:51 PM
The world-record for charge damage is currently quite impressive. The highest I've seen so far was Tempest Stormwind and DM Denubis's, located here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=401662). It dealt slightly over 140,000 damage. However, I've managed to reach the BILLIONS with charging, as detailed below.

I can't take credit for this entire build. While I originated (as far as I know) the introduction of multiple weapons into the build and the improvised weapon thing, many of my ideas came from the following people. Thanks a lot guys!

Tempest Stormwind

Swanyu

DM Denubis

Otto the Bugbear

Pinky's Brain
(extra thanks to Pinky's Brain, who's been an enormous help, and deserves co-author credit for pointing out so many things I missed completely (on the last build attempt, but still...)



Race: Human

Base Scores (Using a 25 point buy)
Strength: 13
Dex: 8
Con: 8
Int: 8
Wis: 18 (+5 from levels)
Cha: 14

Breakdown:
1. Ranger: Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Lance), Track
2. Fighter: Mounted Combat
3. Fighter: Monkey Grip, Cleave
4. Fighter
5. Fighter: Weapon Specialization (Lance)
6. Fighter: Leadership
7. Fighter: Power Lunge
8. Physic Warrior: Ride-by Attack
9. Physic Warrior: Spirited Charge, Improved Critical (Lance)
10. Cavalier
11. Cavalier
12. Artificer 1: Multi-Weapon Fighting
13. Artificer 2
14. Artificer 3
15. Artificer 4: Improved Multi-weapon Fighting
16. Artificer 5
17. Wild Plains Outrider 1
18. Wild Plains Outrider 2: Greater Multi-weapon Fighting
19. Wild Plains Outrider 3
20. ??????? (open level :D . Be whatever you want.)



Items• Periapt of Wisdom +6 – 36,000 GP
• Vest of Charisma +4 - 20,000 GP
• Belt of Spare Hands - 22,000 GP
• 10 Wooden Spikes (Under Weapons below) (703,159 gp, which, when cohort is included, I have)
• Ring of Greater Visage of the Deity single use (CL 17, 7,650 GP)
• Bracer’s of Giant Size single use (CL 19, 6,650 GP)
• Gloves of Girallon's Blessing single use (CL 12, 750 GP)
• Helmet of Rhino’s Rush single use (CL 3, 750 GP)
• Goggles of Physchofeedback single use (ML 20, 5,000 GP)
• Cloak of Bite of the Werebear single use (CL 17, 7,650)
• Potion of Divine Favor single use (CL 18, 900 GP)
• Ring of ??????'s Triple Strike (I forget the name) single use (CL 10, 2,300 GP) (guesswork, but purchased with Cohort's funds, so its unimportant)
• Robe of Divine Power single use (CL 7, 1,400 GP)
• Ring of Psionic Lion's Charge single use (CL 20, 2000 GP) (Use Cohort’s gp)
• Ring of Prescience, Offensive single use (CL 19, 950 GP)
• Tome of Wisdom (whatever its called) +5 – 137,500 GP
• 37 Rashimi Fire Wine, aka Jhuld – 2,590 GP
• 1 Casting of Polymorph Other – 1,200


To do this, you need to do some polymorphing early on. Pay someone to cast Polymorph Other, and turn yourself into a Xill or other such creature. You now have multiple arms and can take Multi-weapon Fighting (not use it yet, but you can take it).

For your cohort, take a level 17 Fatespinner, who will use 105,508 GP of his 340,000 GP to purcase a x2 use item of True Mindswitch. He will then cast Gate to summon a Marilith, and use Seal Fate to give it a -10 to its next save. You will take the mindswitching item and steal the Maralith's body, granting you a usable 6 armed form. (as its Will save will only be +4 and the save DC will be 23, you will succeed at least once, if you spread the uses out to one each day so Seal Fate can recover).

You now have 6 arms (8 with your items) and the ability to make an additional round of attacks per round.

1. Activate Greater Visage of the Deity for +4 Strength and +4 Wisdom
2. Now, drink all 37 fire wines for a +74 to Strength, reducing Wisdom to 1.
3. Activate Giant Size to size Gargantuan for a +24 to Strength, remove the ring, and put on other rings
4. Activate Girallon’s Blessing for a total of 10 arms; pick up all 10 weapons
5. Activate Physchofeedback to take -10 to Dex and Con and gain a +20 to Strength (loss of abilities is balanced by Maralith form)
6. Activate Prescience, Offensive for +8 to damage
7. Activate Bite of the Werebear for a +16 to strength
8. Activate Divine Power for good BaB
9. Activate Divine Favor for a +3 to hit and +3 damage
10. Activate the Triple Strike Power
11. Activate Rhino’s Rush and Psionic Lion's Charge for a x2 on your first attack and +20 damage to all attacks this round
12. Charge and watch the carnage unfold!

Strength
29 Maralith form+74 unnamed from fire wines+24 size from Giant Size+20 unnamed from Physchofeedback+4 Greater Visage of the Deity, +16 enhancement from Bite of the Werebear:
Total: 167 (+78)

I can hold 2.233382994x10^12 lbs


While this is going on, my cohort does the following:

Cohort 12 Wizard/5 Fatespinner
Starting Scores

Base Scores (Using a 25 point buy)
Strength: 8
Dex: 9
Con: 8
Int: 18 (+1 from levels)
Wis: 16 (+4 from levels)
Cha: 8

Dragonshape into Mature Adult Red dragon (33 Strength) (and cause he’s your mount)
Goggles of Physchofeedback single use (ML 20, 5,000 GP) (+20 Str)
Periapt of Wisdom +4 (16,000gp)
Ring of Greater Visage of the Deity single use (CL 17, 7,650 GP)
27 Firewines (+54 Str)
Giant Size to Colossal (+32 Str)

Can carry 6.442450944x10^11 lbs and still charge


Factoring in my weight, it can carry approximately 5.442450944x10^11 lbs

That allows me to carry 10 weapons that each weigh in at 5.442450944x10^10 lbs

Each deals about 5.442450944x10^10d6 (no program I have is capable of this math), or, since pointy objects deal damage as if they were twice as heavy, 1.088490189x10^11d6 damage. On average, this is 380,971,566,100 damage per hit.

Wood is cheap. I don’t know the exact cost, but firewood costs 1cp for 20lbs. Using this as a base, the construction of all 10 of my wooden spikes would cost me 272,122,547 gp. A bit too expensive. So lets go with weapons 387 times cheaper (just what I can afford), costing me and my cohort combined a total of 703,159 gp, which we have available (just). My average damage is now 984,442,651 per strike.


I use Power Attack, adding +20 damage for a -20 attack penalty.
My first attack deals an additional x2 damage, and Deadly Charge makes me deal x3 damage with my improvised weapons.
Power Lunge grants me Strx2 to damage instead of normal Strength modifiers.

DAMAGE (Larger dice rolls averaged for convienence)
My primary hand now deals (984,442,651 +78+78+20+1+20+8+3) damage, times 9 or 10, respectively.
My secondary hands now deal (984,442,651 +78+78+20+1+20+8+3)x9 damage
My Slam attack now deals (8d6+39+39+20+20+8+3) damage
My Bite attack now deals (6d8+39+39+20+20+8+3) damage

Since I have the Wild Plains Offensive ability, I can make a full attack from my mount.
I have +75/+75/+70/+65/+61/+55 with my primary hand
I have +75/+69/+64 with 9 secondary hands
I have +77 with my Slam attack
I have +77 with my Bite attack

This totals 36 attacks per round, or, on average, four criticals and two misses (that's out of forty attacks actually, but is the closest approximation).
Assuming a lance attack misses and a lance attack Crits (most likely), my average damage is 4x5x(984,442,651+78+78+20+1+20+8+3)+4x(9 84,442,651+78+ 78+20+1+20+8+3)+3x26x(984,442,651+78+78+ 20+1+20+ 8+3)+(8d6+39+39+20+20+3+8)+(6d8+39+39+20 +20+3+8).

This damage averages at 100,413,171,800.
My damage range (assuming only two misses and four Crits) is 26,580,382,960 – 159,482,169,800.

And because it makes it look more impressive, let's break out the scientific notation.

1.00413,171,800x10^11 damage!

So, in conclusion, to quote Tempest Stormwind on his charger thread...

BOOYAH!

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-21, 06:53 PM
Rofl, that was amazing, but why does that render Lightning Maces banned? Recall that it was death urge that caused the insane damage

Sorry, I just can't think of a way to abuse Lightning Maces unless there was a bow with 18-20 Range

T.G. Oskar
2009-09-21, 06:55 PM
We don't speak of Sinx. Ever.

It's just not fair to the nontrig classes. But yeah, Gunslinger was my favorite class for mobbing. Could take out any MvP while ignoring its summons, so I used mine to loot for my other characters. Like my Gypsy.

EDP got nerfed. It doesn't multiply damage anymore.
(On Renewal, at least)
Also, I prefer rifles to guns. It's a nightmare to accommodate enough AGI and DEX to get near 190 ASPD with Rifles, and then praying for a Lever-Action Rifle for insane critical hits.
Oh, it's going to be troubling when Royal Guard becomes active...
@Tide:
Still haven't answered (or at least I believe you haven't):
What about having Harmonious Knight substitution levels, From Smite to Song, or Initiate of Milil as technical "Bardic Music" prerequisites for several PrCs and feats that require it? Legal or not?

Signmaker
2009-09-21, 06:59 PM
Rofl, that was amazing, but why does that render Lightning Maces banned? Recall that it was death urge that caused the insane damage

Sorry, I just can't think of a way to abuse Lightning Maces unless there was a bow with 18-20 Range

Splitting. It's all you need, really. You double your attack rolls, which nets you more crossbow shots. Simple as that, and also what melee macing lacks. Of course, the tradeoff is damage per hit, but hey.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-21, 07:02 PM
Never quite agreed with that charger build ...

Arakune
2009-09-21, 07:09 PM
Never quite agreed with that charger build ...

There was the former, who did 140,000 damage.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-21, 07:16 PM
Well...now I can do NI damage...but its not an infinite loop, because its statistically impossible for it to go to full infinity. It will end after some time.

9mm
2009-09-21, 07:39 PM
Splitting. It's all you need, really. You double your attack rolls, which nets you more crossbow shots. Simple as that, and also what melee macing lacks. Of course, the tradeoff is damage per hit, but hey.

couldn't we say that it doesn't stack with splitting?

Signmaker
2009-09-21, 07:48 PM
couldn't we say that it doesn't stack with splitting?

Ehhh, it's still the principle of the idea. Mainly, Lightning Mace + volley attack method = tricky business.

Lord_Gareth
2009-09-21, 07:49 PM
Any verdict on using the Revised Harrowed (minus Bonus Feats/any Harrowed Feats at all)?

*Is willing to keep reposting this until it's at least acknowledged, if not answered*

Doc Roc
2009-09-21, 08:21 PM
*Is willing to keep reposting this until it's at least acknowledged, if not answered*

I'm going to read harrowed now.

@TGO:
Unfortunately, technically not because the former isn't categorized as bardic music. Can I get a page cite on the latter so I can go check that one?

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-21, 08:34 PM
Rofl, that was amazing, but why does that render Lightning Maces banned? Recall that it was death urge that caused the insane damage

Sorry, I just can't think of a way to abuse Lightning Maces unless there was a bow with 18-20 Range

No, death urge didn't cause the insane damage. Death urge forced a single attack, which interacted with lightning maces in a devastating way.

Note: Let's look at a typical 40 strength attacker with a greatsword.

Auto crit every round for 4d6+44.
Painful, yes, but compare to a comparable DC Hold Monster/Dominate. Where I can order you to sleep, so that you're helpless. Summon Monster 7 (maximized) for 5 Bearded Devils. 5 Coup de Grace, max power attack, for 5d10+75.

Death Urge doesn't force optional feats. The real advantage is that it gives you three rounds.

Lightning Maces, on the other hand? At the point I stopped my opponent in that match, and he deleted his two followup posts? He was at 40 attacks and counting, with about 15 crits on the stack for extra attacks. More in the current iteration than he started with. It's quite feasible for him to have dropped 100-200 attacks easily in a round with that build.

I appreciate that death urge directed it to him instead of me. But the power of the attack was not due to Death Urge.

In all fairness, I feel that Lightning Maces isn't the feat that should be banned. If anything, Aptitude Weapon should. It's what makes this, and many other combos, possible. Lightning Maces was never designed to interact with 18-20 weapons, or weapons that split themselves.

Doc Roc
2009-09-21, 08:46 PM
Lightning maces is staying banned, but aptitude weapons may be joining them.

Doc Roc
2009-09-21, 09:27 PM
We will not be allowing Harrowed, LG. It looks like it's probably weaker than a warlock in almost all meaningful respects, particularly without the feat support that you'd be abandoning. I do not think you could win in the ToS without some very heavy optimization, which would place undue demands on you and on the sheet readers who are just poor hapless volunteers.

In fact, in general, unless something exceptional is presented, I can't ask my friends who act as sheet-readers to sit down and gobble up even-more-material that they'll have to juggle inside their poor game-ravaged brains.

T.G. Oskar
2009-09-21, 10:35 PM
@TGO:
Unfortunately, technically not because the former isn't categorized as bardic music. Can I get a page cite on the latter so I can go check that one?

From Smite to Song and Initiate of Milil are both feats from Champions of Valor. The first is at page 29, while the other is at page 31.

Though, as how it looks, I might just have to retrace the entire progression by one level. Kudos if you know what I'm attempting.

Hint: look at one of the prestige classes in CoV.

9mm
2009-09-21, 11:01 PM
Slade is now updated to a War-marked as per suggested by tide...

Lets see what happens.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-21, 11:05 PM
Ok then, my only approved chAracters are feebleminded in Official Match and the other is banned for using LMs so have to wait on the otheres:

Skill Monkey and Ray Blaster

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-21, 11:18 PM
Well, if you wanna exhibition, I've got characters.

Signmaker
2009-09-21, 11:36 PM
Borg Cube vs Ghost = Draw.

Doc Roc
2009-09-22, 12:32 AM
SHBG is now banned. Exception is joke-matches only.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-22, 01:01 AM
SHBG? What is this?

Signmaker
2009-09-22, 01:02 AM
A book full of wicked, wicked things.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-22, 01:24 AM
Stronghold Builder's Guide?

Aharon
2009-09-22, 06:34 AM
(Previous questions here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6970344&postcount=487) and here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6959598&postcount=441). 8)-11) have been answered by Phoenix Rivers and Claudius Maximus.)

@PhoenixRivers and Claudius Maximus:
Thanks for your feedback. It's appreciated. It might be bothersome, but the book isn't quite clear on some points, and I want clear rulings on them because I don't really know yet where to go with a Truenamer.
@Total Concealment
Yeah, that makes sense. Would have been to nice to be true otherwise :smallsmile:
@Known Personal Truename
Well, but that's more a fluff than a mechanical reason, isn't it? Plus, the book mentions as one fluff reason for your truename getting harder to pronounce that the universe becomes less tolerant concerning the pronounciation of your truename when you become more powerful and important, so to me, it makes sense that you could get to better know your truename.
@Runestaves
Makes sense, I guess - you can still use them without them becoming too powerful.
@Slow
Cool, I like that.

And again, a new question :smallbiggrin:
12) Per the D&D rules compendium, magic items have the same activation time as the spell they produce. Is that rule in use? So could I use, for example, a minor schema of celerity as an immediate action? Or is there any reason why people don't use that kind of thing?

PinkysBrain
2009-09-22, 08:00 AM
The time it takes is not the same as the action it takes.

Aharon
2009-09-22, 08:02 AM
Yes, but it doesn't take an action...


Action

None. The Use Magic Device check is made as part of the action (if any) required to activate the magic item.

So it doesn't take an action itself, but the same action that is required to activate the magic item - and this action is the activation time, which is the same time as the spell it simulates, i.e. for example an immediate action - that is, if I understood the rules correctly.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-22, 08:14 AM
When you put it like that I can see your point, you can speak outside of your turn too. Makes UMD more powerful, but I think the problem lies more with celerity and low use count items in arena fights than UMD.

Signmaker
2009-09-22, 11:34 AM
So. ACs in the 40s, 150+ HP, and Saves in the mid +20s, but only 3rd-4th level sorcerer casting. Tradeoff = Good/Bad?

imperialspectre
2009-09-22, 12:34 PM
How much of that AC is touch AC, and how much damage can you do in your chosen attack mode? If the answers are "at least 35" and "enough to be life-threatening to most level 13 characters," then you're probably doing fine.

Signmaker
2009-09-22, 01:12 PM
How much of that AC is touch AC, and how much damage can you do in your chosen attack mode? If the answers are "at least 35" and "enough to be life-threatening to most level 13 characters," then you're probably doing fine.

I'd likely be doing a mini-blaster, so 'not enough', and yes, most of it will be Touch AC.

The idea is to just use a tank caster (light on the caster part would be the issue).

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-22, 01:47 PM
Aharon: As I understand it, spell trigger magic items (wands, staffs and the equivalent, including Runestaffs) have the activation time of the spell they hold. A wand of Celerity can be activated as an immediate action if you have it in hand. Spell completion items like scrolls take a standard action regardless of their normal casting time, so a scroll of Celerity is pretty pointless except for scribing purposes.

Since a Minor Schema is a spell completion item, casting Celerity out of it would not be very helpful.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-22, 02:32 PM
Rules compendium removed the minimum standard action from spell completion activation as well.

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-22, 02:37 PM
So it has. Was there ever a point where my statement was correct?

9mm
2009-09-22, 02:40 PM
So it has. Was there ever a point where my statement was correct?

That one...

PinkysBrain
2009-09-22, 02:44 PM
You're just busier than me :) (I looked it up when I made my first reply because I thought the same thing.)

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-22, 03:23 PM
Whew! My warmarked is done, and ready to exhibition.

ex cathedra
2009-09-22, 03:26 PM
Whew! My warmarked is done, and ready to exhibition.

That's both very appealing and utterly terrifying. Rough tier?

After doing more minor monk revision, I'm up for another exhibition. Having offensive troubles.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-22, 04:27 PM
At long last, the match-up everyone has been waiting for!

Takahashi no Onisan vs Fistbeard Beardfist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6979590#post6979590)

Can a CW Samurai compete against the Dwarfiest Dwarf that ever Dwarfed? Stay tuned as the battle unfolds!

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-22, 04:55 PM
That's both very appealing and utterly terrifying. Rough tier?

After doing more minor monk revision, I'm up for another exhibition. Having offensive troubles.

Not entirely sure, to be honest. I think it's got potential. ;) I'd like to test it against a fullcaster. They seem to be what we're trying to balance against.

But I'll test against most anything.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-22, 07:25 PM
Does anyone know how illusion spells work on PbP? Do I wait until they interact with it to roll Disbelief or do I roll disbelief as soon as they see it?

E.g. Shadow Evocated/Silent Image Wall of Force, do they roll disbelief when I cast the spell, or do they have to touch/move through to roll disbelief?

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-22, 07:35 PM
One class has an ability to roll disbelief when they see an illusion, which really suggests that seeing is normally not enough to count as interaction.

Wall of Force is invisible, so I don't even know if you can Silent Image one in the first place.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-22, 07:37 PM
Well, I suppose you could. It'd be a lot like an illusion of air, but hey. Forcecage may be a bit more... substantial in appearance. Perhaps if there was another effect, like fog... Then you could illusion the "hole" in the fog.

Cieyrin
2009-09-22, 07:37 PM
At long last, the match-up everyone has been waiting for!

Takahashi no Onisan vs Fistbeard Beardfist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6979590#post6979590)

Can a CW Samurai compete against the Dwarfiest Dwarf that ever Dwarfed? Stay tuned as the battle unfolds!

This may be utterly epic or an utter flop. I look in utter rapture as I consider whether to try my skills at making a character for ToS finally, now that I have both my book resources and seemingly a stable internet connection to actually compete with.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-22, 07:39 PM
Also do you get an automatic spellcraft check to detect an illusion when you see it? After all it's a spell that’s "already in place and in effect" of which you "can see or detect the effects of the spell". Would that constitute proof it's really an illusion or would you still need a save? (There might be a real wall inside the illusion of a wall ... just because there is an illusion there doesn't mean there is no wall there.)

Would detecting and identifying an illusion spell being cast also give you an automatic save?

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-22, 07:52 PM
One class has an ability to roll disbelief when they see an illusion, which really suggests that seeing is normally not enough to count as interaction.

Wall of Force is invisible, so I don't even know if you can Silent Image one in the first place.

Oh I didn't know they were invisible... atleast they won't know about Shadow Evocated version and waste atleast one turn using it, perhaps blocking LoE

Edit: What class do you speak of, it sounds interesting

Cieyrin
2009-09-22, 08:20 PM
Also do you get an automatic spellcraft check to detect an illusion when you see it? After all it's a spell that’s "already in place and in effect" of which you "can see or detect the effects of the spell". Would that constitute proof it's really an illusion or would you still need a save? (There might be a real wall inside the illusion of a wall ... just because there is an illusion there doesn't mean there is no wall there.)

Would detecting and identifying an illusion spell being cast also give you an automatic save?

I'd assume you'd get a spellcraft check whenever you detect a spell going off. If you realize it's an illusion, I wouldn't say you automatically save just from the knowledge, though a bonus on the save to disbelieve is probably in order.

Eurus
2009-09-22, 09:27 PM
Oh I didn't know they were invisible... atleast they won't know about Shadow Evocated version and waste atleast one turn using it, perhaps blocking LoE

Edit: What class do you speak of, it sounds interesting

Ardent Dilettante, I believe, from the Planar Handbook. It's... odd.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-22, 09:32 PM
Anyone know how high the standard arena is?

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-22, 09:39 PM
Ideally it should be agreed upon beforehand, but the original post by Saph has it at 30 feet.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-22, 09:43 PM
This may be utterly epic or an utter flop. I look in utter rapture as I consider whether to try my skills at making a character for ToS finally, now that I have both my book resources and seemingly a stable internet connection to actually compete with.

I would rate Takahashi as a Tier 3 character, mostly because he's a one-trick pony, but that one trick is almost a win-button.

But yes, this battle could go quickly, or it could drag on. The longer it goes on, the more to Takahashi's advantage it is.

9mm
2009-09-22, 10:28 PM
that... was one short fight.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-22, 10:35 PM
that... was one short fight.

Well, technically it lasted over 20 rounds as Takahashi slowly whittled away Fistbeard's HP. But yes, once Takahashi locked him down, it was all over but the murdering.

Cieyrin
2009-09-22, 10:38 PM
I would rate Takahashi as a Tier 3 character, mostly because he's a one-trick pony, but that one trick is almost a win-button.

But yes, this battle could go quickly, or it could drag on. The longer it goes on, the more to Takahashi's advantage it is.

Hmm, fast battle indeed. Intimidate for the win and congrats on a pure CW Samurai victory.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-22, 10:41 PM
Hmm, fast battle indeed. Intimidate for the win and congrats on a pure CW Samurai victory.
Really fear is a fundamentally broken part of the game and no SoS/SoD should ever have a skill set DC.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-22, 10:42 PM
Although awesome, it was pretty anticlimatic... Maybe I just love a drawn counterspelling mages duel or spring attack match?

To be curious, does this build get shutdown by a certain class's 3rd lvl class feature?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-22, 10:45 PM
Although awesome, it was pretty anticlimatic... Maybe I just love a drawn counterspelling mages duel or spring attack match?

To be curious, does this build get shutdown by a certain class's 3rd lvl class feature?

Which class and which feature?

Cieyrin
2009-09-22, 10:45 PM
Really fear is a fundamentally broken part of the game and no SoS/SoD should ever have a skill set DC.

It's not that broken, I'd say. There are plenty of easy ways to get immunity to fear effects and, without the ToS calling Intimidate as not Mind Affecting, makes it just that much stronger, really, given how many more things are immune to Mind Affecting effects.

EDIT:
Which class and which feature?

Paladin's Aura of Courage.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-22, 10:49 PM
Well, if there are any other matches desired, I'm game. :D

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-22, 10:55 PM
It's not that broken, I'd say. There are plenty of easy ways to get immunity to fear effects and, without the ToS calling Intimidate as not Mind Affecting, makes it just that much stronger, really, given how many more things are immune to Mind Affecting effects.

EDIT:

Paladin's Aura of Courage.

Yes, that would make him immune to Takahashi.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-22, 11:22 PM
Here all night. Available for Warmark testing, etc.

On a side note, if intimidate is not mind affecting, it means that we can stare down golems! Woo! One problem... They don't blink!

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-22, 11:53 PM
C'mon...thats a lame fight, though congrats as doing it as a CW Samurai...

If your character cant take out his opponent in 3 rounds, then you need to up your damage.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-23, 12:03 AM
C'mon...thats a lame fight, though congrats as doing it as a CW Samurai...

If your character cant take out his opponent in 3 rounds, then you need to up your damage.

If your opponent can't do anything, the time it takes is irrelevant.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-23, 12:47 AM
Good Point.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-23, 12:53 AM
Granted, I don't like 50 round fights, where one side is pinned down. Once I achieve lockdown, I like to end quickly.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-23, 01:30 AM
C'mon...thats a lame fight, though congrats as doing it as a CW Samurai...

If your character cant take out his opponent in 3 rounds, then you need to up your damage.

Have you any suggestions on how to increase his damage output while still achieving lockdown? I'll be the first to admit this build is far from optimized.

Technically, you can't CDG a Cowering opponent because he isn't Helpless, otherwise I'd have picked up the feat to CDG as a standard action. That would have made it go by much faster.

Signmaker
2009-09-23, 01:37 AM
Have you any suggestions on how to increase his damage output while still achieving lockdown? I'll be the first to admit this build is far from optimized.

Some sort of cumulative bleeding effect? AoE damaging field? Throwing off negative levels each time you hit?

Or, provided you find a way to make melee touch attacks, convert some of your bonus to Power Attack. Or use shocktrooper to not care about AB, seeing as AC is irrelevant once your lock is set up.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-23, 02:00 AM
Some sort of cumulative bleeding effect? AoE damaging field? Throwing off negative levels each time you hit?

Or, provided you find a way to make melee touch attacks, convert some of your bonus to Power Attack. Or use shocktrooper to not care about AB, seeing as AC is irrelevant once your lock is set up.

shock trooper only works on a charge. Which is a full-round action. As for the rest, how do you propose a full CW Samurai being able to get such effects?

Ironically, if he were level 14, he would be significantly more powerful, and could achieve the trick without any gear requirements.

Also, this character's strength is under 13, so he can't Power Attack at all.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-23, 02:01 AM
Wounding on weapons?

PinkysBrain
2009-09-23, 05:24 AM
It's not that broken, I'd say. There are plenty of easy ways to get immunity to fear effects
But at that point you are just playing rocket tag and absolute defences ... ie. high level optimization. I thought the ToS was about seeing more normal characters in play?

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-23, 05:30 AM
But at that point you are just playing rocket tag and absolute defences ... ie. high level optimization. I thought the ToS was about seeing more normal characters in play?

ToS is competitive PvP, followed by PvE.

In other words, the ideal kind of environment to test the upper limits of experimental changes to rulesets, and what possible rules abuses could be created.

And then there's an evolving ruleset on the front page, and new classes introduced.

I see the hand of genius at work here. Free volunteers, who work for fun <<Beta Testers? >>

EDIT:
I do agree that if the only possible defense to something is to be outright immune to it, then there may need to be a reworking. I mean, isn't that why diplomacy is considered broken?

Kurald Galain
2009-09-23, 05:31 AM
That was really funny. Mind if I include this combat in my Samurai Guide? :smallbiggrin:

Sliver
2009-09-23, 06:08 AM
I must say, that was awesome! Staring someone down and cutting them slowly! Totaly what a honorable samurai is all about:smallbiggrin:

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-23, 07:54 AM
I must say, that was awesome! Staring someone down and cutting them slowly! Totaly what a honorable samurai is all about:smallbiggrin:

Terror and Torture? Hm.

Master_Rahl22
2009-09-23, 10:38 AM
I never did get an answer to the below question.

Looking at the grapple rules, it says you can make opposed grapple checks in place of an attack. How many grapple checks could I possibly make in a round? I have 3 iteratives and am dual-wielding, so 6? If I were to use Dancing Mongoose maneuver, would that give me any more attempts to end a grapple?

Signmaker
2009-09-23, 10:42 AM
I never did get an answer to the below question.

Looking at the grapple rules, it says you can make opposed grapple checks in place of an attack. How many grapple checks could I possibly make in a round? I have 3 iteratives and am dual-wielding, so 6? If I were to use Dancing Mongoose maneuver, would that give me any more attempts to end a grapple?

Ignoring the ToB portion of your question (because I'm not well-versed and there are plenty of other people more capable of answering that), you can replace any 'attack' action in your attack routine with a 'special attack' action that fits the same action type. Therefore, yes you can do multiple grapples, disarms, trips, and throw splash weapons. The only restriction on the above are the special attacks that require movement and are, naturally, restricted to that.

Cieyrin
2009-09-23, 10:43 AM
I do agree that if the only possible defense to something is to be outright immune to it, then there may need to be a reworking. I mean, isn't that why diplomacy is considered broken?

Well, like most skills used in combat, they weren't designed for throwing huge amounts of skill bonuses at to utterly devastate, which is partly the problem here, considering how easy it is to up skills as compared to saves and whatnot. The same goes for the defensive type skills (Spot, Listen, Sense Motive) that don't get nearly as much support as what they're supposed to counter (Hide, Move Silently, Bluff). Maybe if there was an actual defense against Diplomacy and Intimidate other than more or less static DCs, then they wouldn't be quite as bad as they are.

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-23, 01:35 PM
Rahl: You can not use two weapons in a grapple. Multiple natural weapons can't be used either. You are limited only to iterative attacks from BAB, though you could benefit from extra attacks like from Haste. If you can initiate Dancing Mongoose, you would gain only one attack. It is however debated whether or not you can initiate maneuvers during a grapple. I'm personally inclined to say no, since you need to be able to move freely to initiate maneuvers.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-23, 01:47 PM
That was really funny. Mind if I include this combat in my Samurai Guide? :smallbiggrin:

Absolutely! Character sheet found Here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=153726)


I must say, that was awesome! Staring someone down and cutting them slowly! Totaly what a honorable samurai is all about:smallbiggrin:

Hey, he's Lawful Evil. No one ever said a Samurai had to be a good guy :smallbiggrin:

Basically, since his opponent was so weak as to cower before him, he wasn't worthy of being dispatched with the Katana.

I agree, it was a Cheap Trick, bordering on outright Cheese. But then, this IS CW Samurai we're talking about here. It's not like I had a whole lot to work with. So I used the ONE class ability which they do get, and boosted it via other means until it actually became useful.

Signmaker
2009-09-23, 02:28 PM
Hey, he's Lawful Evil. No one ever said a Samurai had to be a good guy :smallbiggrin:

Honor=/=Good. Even dictators have their own creeds.


Aaanyway, slight problem with your build, from an opposing build point of view. Namely, the existence of a companion/mount/spellcasting familiar. For another issue, fast healing + reflexive damage effects. The whole 'ninjas can't catch me if I'm on fire' gambit. Granted, you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone with that particular trait in their build, but I think my second character issue still stands.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-23, 02:38 PM
Honor=/=Good. Even dictators have their own creeds.


Aaanyway, slight problem with your build, from an opposing build point of view. Namely, the existence of a companion/mount/spellcasting familiar. For another issue, fast healing + reflexive damage effects. The whole 'ninjas can't catch me if I'm on fire' gambit. Granted, you'd be hard-pressed to find anyone with that particular trait in their build, but I think my second character issue still stands.

Hey, Takahashi was perfectly honorable. He never attempted to hide, never turned in the face of danger, and upheld the samurai code of honor to every particular. Should he have finished the fight with "There is no shame in this death. It is a good death, the death of a man who has done... fine works" :smallbiggrin:

His Mass Staredown ability lets him lockdown anything within 30' of him. So yes, he can lockdown mooks in addition to his primary target. Basically, it's at-will Never Outnumbered skill trick.

Fast Healing + reflexive damage effects would be harder to deal with, yes.

Again, it's not a perfect combo, and if you have any suggestions, I'd love to hear them. This was just thrown together out of the bowels of my madness and made manifest.

Cieyrin
2009-09-23, 03:22 PM
Hey, Takahashi was perfectly honorable. He never attempted to hide, never turned in the face of danger, and upheld the samurai code of honor to every particular. Should he have finished the fight with "There is no shame in this death. It is a good death, the death of a man who has done... fine works" :smallbiggrin:

His Mass Staredown ability lets him lockdown anything within 30' of him. So yes, he can lockdown mooks in addition to his primary target. Basically, it's at-will Never Outnumbered skill trick.

Fast Healing + reflexive damage effects would be harder to deal with, yes.

Again, it's not a perfect combo, and if you have any suggestions, I'd love to hear them. This was just thrown together out of the bowels of my madness and made manifest.

I was gonna suggest Menacing Brute and Menacing Demeanor but your trick is good enough as is. Getting Sneak Attack to take advantage of that they're denied Dex while cowering through Ronin would probably be a decent path, as well.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-23, 03:34 PM
I was gonna suggest Menacing Brute and Menacing Demeanor but your trick is good enough as is. Getting Sneak Attack to take advantage of that they're denied Dex while cowering through Ronin would probably be a decent path, as well.

I was thinking more along the lines of a one-level dip in Warlock, with a Chaucible of Fell Power to be doing 3d6 as a RTA , which would accelerate the beatdown significantly.

However, for the purposes of this character, I'm trying to keep it straight CW Samurai if possible.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-23, 04:44 PM
Looking at the grapple rules, it says you can make opposed grapple checks in place of an attack. How many grapple checks could I possibly make in a round? I have 3 iteratives and am dual-wielding, so 6? If I were to use Dancing Mongoose maneuver, would that give me any more attempts to end a grapple?

Addendum:

If You’re Grappling

When you are grappling (regardless of who started the grapple), you can perform any of the following actions. Some of these actions take the place of an attack (rather than being a standard action or a move action). If your base attack bonus allows you multiple attacks, you can attempt one of these actions in place of each of your attacks, but at successively lower base attack bonuses.
Activate a Magic Item

You can activate a magic item, as long as the item doesn’t require spell completion activation. You don’t need to make a grapple check to activate the item.
Attack Your Opponent

You can make an attack with an unarmed strike, natural weapon, or light weapon against another character you are grappling. You take a -4 penalty on such attacks.

You can’t attack with two weapons while grappling, even if both are light weapons.
Dual wielding is explicitly prohibited by grappling, so no to the 6 attacks.

On a side note: I'm looking for an exhibition. :)

Cieyrin
2009-09-23, 04:52 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of a one-level dip in Warlock, with a Chaucible of Fell Power to be doing 3d6 as a RTA , which would accelerate the beatdown significantly.

However, for the purposes of this character, I'm trying to keep it straight CW Samurai if possible.

By going Ronin, you get most of the relevant Samurai abilities back plus sneak attack. I'd say that's still very CW Samurai, as Ronin is more or less lumped with the CW Samurai, anyways.

Doc Roc
2009-09-23, 05:18 PM
Honor=/=Good. Even dictators have their own creeds.

I can personally offer verification of that. :)

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-23, 05:33 PM
By going Ronin, you get most of the relevant Samurai abilities back plus sneak attack. I'd say that's still very CW Samurai, as Ronin is more or less lumped with the CW Samurai, anyways.

I don't think he's thinking from a theme perspective. CW Samurai is considered pretty much the weakest class alive. I think he's trying to let it shine.

9mm
2009-09-23, 06:05 PM
On a side note: I'm looking for an exhibition. :)

Fighter, or war-marked?

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-23, 06:35 PM
Tide: If a spell has a duration of exactly 12 hours, how long does it have left at the start of a match?

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-23, 06:44 PM
Fighter, or war-marked?

Well, it's my Warmarked, so...

either.

Doc Roc
2009-09-23, 06:53 PM
Tide: If a spell has a duration of exactly 12 hours, how long does it have left at the start of a match?

according to our established rules, 0. Your thoughts?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-23, 07:02 PM
Hmmm... I'm thinking I have found a way to significantly increase the rate at which Takahashi dispatches his opponents once he has them caught in his trap.

What would the ruling be on using a Use Rope check to bind a cowering opponent? That would then make the opponent Helpless, correct?

9mm
2009-09-23, 07:11 PM
Well, it's my Warmarked, so...

either.

lets do my fighter... Boomer Kwanger I choose you!

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-23, 07:13 PM
according to our established rules, 0. Your thoughts?

Those who have a CL of 12th and lower will suffer without extend spell.
Most of the dedicated caster builds have caster levels higher than 12th, so this hurts gishes and theurges and such more than it does full casters.

I'd let 12-hours have a little bit of duration left, like 1 minute. There would be the possibility that dragging out a fight could cause the loss of all-day buffs. I'd find that more interesting than denying them entirely.

Shneeky: Binding a character takes 1 minute of full round actions.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-23, 07:21 PM
Hmm... I'm trying to figure out how to let my CW Samurai make someone Helpless once they are already Cowering and not doing much of anything. Once I can do that, it would be a fairly straightforward process to get Death Blow feat then CDG as standard action. Force a high enough DC Fort Save or Die on the CDG and opponent is dead.

Also, wanting to find a toy which will let him be able to figure out where opponents are in relation to him which will foil Hide, Invis, and other common ways of not being seen.

Doc Roc
2009-09-23, 07:38 PM
green-snake naga + mindsight?



I agree, CM. I think that's a better option.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-23, 07:45 PM
Hmm... I'm trying to figure out how to let my CW Samurai make someone Helpless once they are already Cowering and not doing much of anything. Once I can do that, it would be a fairly straightforward process to get Death Blow feat then CDG as standard action. Force a high enough DC Fort Save or Die on the CDG and opponent is dead.

Also, wanting to find a toy which will let him be able to figure out where opponents are in relation to him which will foil Hide, Invis, and other common ways of not being seen.

How I did lots of damage...

I could do it as a swift action, which let me knockback+shocktrooper+Full Attack + Power Attack+Etc...

As a standard action...maybe get a level in Warblade? Thats my reccomendation. You can use 3 maneuvers, refresh them, use 3 manuevers...it would significantly increase your damage. Or you could just get Martial Study so you can atleast do one powerful attack.

Once they are cowering...I dont know on that one...

PinkysBrain
2009-09-23, 07:54 PM
Does AMF stop mindsight?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-23, 07:58 PM
How I did lots of damage...

I could do it as a swift action, which let me knockback+shocktrooper+Full Attack + Power Attack+Etc...

As a standard action...maybe get a level in Warblade? Thats my reccomendation. You can use 3 maneuvers, refresh them, use 3 manuevers...it would significantly increase your damage. Or you could just get Martial Study so you can atleast do one powerful attack.

Once they are cowering...I dont know on that one...

Hmm...

Not dipping Warblade, but you have given me an idea. Mwhahahaha!

It'll cost me two feats, but it should increase my damage output. In fact, the more I think about that, the better I like it. Shortsword is a Shadow Hand weapon, after all...

Signmaker
2009-09-23, 07:59 PM
Does AMF stop mindsight?

Corollary: Does anti-telepathy stop mindsight?

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-23, 08:00 PM
Can I use Versatile Spellcaster to use higher level Runestaves?

And can you chain Versatile Spellcaster?
E.g.
4 lvl 1 spells
to
2 lvl 2 spells
to
1 lvl 3 spell?

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-23, 08:04 PM
You can not chain Versatile Spellcaster.

I'm curious myself about the Runestaff thing. I asked about it in Q&A.

Doc Roc
2009-09-23, 08:10 PM
This week's bans:
Walker in the Waste joins its exalted brothers on the ban list.
The Ghost Template from Ghostwalk is now banned, due to its LA+0 status.
Fimbulwinter, for esoteric reasons.

Technically, yes, CM. That... may need fixing.

tyckspoon
2009-09-23, 08:14 PM
Hmm...

Not dipping Warblade, but you have given me an idea. Mwhahahaha!

It'll cost me two feats, but it should increase my damage output. In fact, the more I think about that, the better I like it. Shortsword is a Shadow Hand weapon, after all...

Assassin's Stance + noticing that Cowering removes Dex bonus, huh?

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-23, 09:22 PM
Anyone up for an exhibition against my new Warmarked build?

Cieyrin
2009-09-23, 09:54 PM
Assassin's Stance + noticing that Cowering removes Dex bonus, huh?

This is why I was all "Why not Ronin?" but I suppose this way he can stay completely CW Samurai, though I think he's proved his point by this point that he no longer has to but that's just me, apparently. :smalltongue:

Doc Roc
2009-09-23, 10:41 PM
Change in the shape of the GHOOOOOOOST ban. Ghosts are now allowed, but only for fighting other GHOOOOOOOOOOSTZ.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-23, 11:37 PM
lets do my fighter... Boomer Kwanger I choose you!

Sure. And Claudius, I'll go Warmark vs Warmark, if you like.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-09-23, 11:40 PM
I'm not sure if my warmarked has been approved yet, but if anyone's interested, I'd be up for an exhibition match in the meantime.

Signmaker
2009-09-23, 11:43 PM
Change in the shape of the GHOOOOOOOST ban. Ghosts are now allowed, but only for fighting other GHOOOOOOOOOOSTZ.

It is also a rule that said fights must always take place in an abandoned town of the 'western' style.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-23, 11:45 PM
I'm not sure if my warmarked has been approved yet, but if anyone's interested, I'd be up for an exhibition match in the meantime.

I'm willing too. Set up a thread, and I'm game. I just wanna match, lol.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-09-23, 11:49 PM
Here We Go! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6988639#post6988639)

Doc Roc
2009-09-24, 02:52 AM
Mirror Move (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/sb/sb20000901a) takes its place on the ban list.

Master_Rahl22
2009-09-24, 10:21 AM
Phoenix, I'm ready to continue our exhibition if you still want to. I'll get my turn done some time today.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-24, 11:32 AM
Assassin's Stance + noticing that Cowering removes Dex bonus, huh?

Something like that, yes. Also using Shadow Blade to increase damage output nicely. Maybe a one-level dip in Ronin for a total of 3d6 SA. That gives me 4d6+Dex+enchantment.

Also, does it still take a full minute to bind someone with Manacles? Seems like it would be much faster than tying them up. Anyone know of a source for something like Handcuffs or other item which can be used to bind a target quickly?

Edit: Since I cannot find a decent item which will allow me to detect opponents, he'll also be taking a two-level dip in Warlock. So it'll look like CW Samurai 10/Warlock2/Ronin1. He was disgraced by his display of supernatural powers, and exiled by his Shogun. Now a much darker fellow, he travels the world, looking for honorable death in combat.

Arakune
2009-09-24, 11:35 AM
When you are cowering, doesn't you fight back if you can't run?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-24, 11:44 AM
When you are cowering, doesn't you fight back if you can't run?


Cowering

The character is frozen in fear and can take no actions. A cowering character takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class and loses her Dexterity bonus (if any).

No, the only thing they can do is make a Craft (Piddle) check.

I think I deserve an honorable mention for winning a match with a CW Samurai, even if it was a cheap trick.

Master_Rahl22
2009-09-24, 01:03 PM
ryuan, you're thinking of Turn Undead, where they run unless they can't, and then cower until you approach them and then they fight back.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-24, 01:10 PM
Something like that, yes. Also using Shadow Blade to increase damage output nicely. Maybe a one-level dip in Ronin for a total of 3d6 SA. That gives me 4d6+Dex+enchantment.

Also, does it still take a full minute to bind someone with Manacles? Seems like it would be much faster than tying them up. Anyone know of a source for something like Handcuffs or other item which can be used to bind a target quickly?

Edit: Since I cannot find a decent item which will allow me to detect opponents, he'll also be taking a two-level dip in Warlock. So it'll look like CW Samurai 10/Warlock2/Ronin1. He was disgraced by his display of supernatural powers, and exiled by his Shogun. Now a much darker fellow, he travels the world, looking for honorable death in combat.

Justiciar (PrC) gains the ability to bind targets in a grapple quickly.

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-24, 01:28 PM
So, any takers on fighting my Warmarked? I'd prefer to fight a non-Warmarked opponent, since the idea is to compare performance to standard characters.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-24, 01:46 PM
You've already fought my psion... I have a druid, if you like.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-24, 01:58 PM
Justiciar (PrC) gains the ability to bind targets in a grapple quickly.

Takes at least 5 levels for Hog-Tie and 8 for Improved Hog-Tie and requires grappling, which Takahashi is not particularly good at.

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-24, 02:05 PM
Phoenix: I'll fight that druid of yours.

Thread: Claudius Maximus vs. PhoenixRivers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126103)

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-24, 02:12 PM
K. I'm in the thread.

9mm
2009-09-24, 02:47 PM
Sure. And Claudius, I'll go Warmark vs Warmark, if you like.

got a thread up.. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6991883#post6991883)

IthilanorStPete
2009-09-24, 04:31 PM
Question: Can we use Divination concerning the events of the match?

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-24, 04:38 PM
Divination for preparation purposes is covered in the second post. I get the impression that the offered method is the only means to learn information about your match, but I could be wrong as I did not write the rule.

IthilanorStPete
2009-09-24, 04:51 PM
Yeah, I saw it, I'm just not sure whether that spell counts as consulting a higher power.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-24, 05:45 PM
got a thread up.. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6991883#post6991883)

I'm in the thread.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-24, 06:17 PM
Does Dimension Door count as a purely mental action?

And does Quick Draw allow to draw items from a Belt of Hidden Pouches as a free action?

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-24, 06:25 PM
Does Dimension Door count as a purely mental action?
It has a verbal component, so no. Now, if it were metamagiced with Silent Spell, yes.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-24, 06:31 PM
Also does anyone know where I can find the feat Enhanced Dragon Blood? Basically, it adds spells known for sorcerers equal to Spellcasting Bonus Spells from Ability score

Btw: Anyone up for an exhibition with Jim the Skillmonkey?

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-24, 06:44 PM
Also does anyone know where I can find the feat Enhanced Dragon Blood? Basically, it adds spells known for sorcerers equal to Spellcasting Bonus Spells from Ability score

Btw: Anyone up for an exhibition with Jim the Skillmonkey?

I'll try my warmarked against a skiller.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-24, 06:46 PM
Sure thing, can you make thread?

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-24, 06:49 PM
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6993542#post6993542

there you are.

sofawall
2009-09-24, 07:23 PM
Also does anyone know where I can find the feat Enhanced Dragon Blood? Basically, it adds spells known for sorcerers equal to Spellcasting Bonus Spells from Ability score

Btw: Anyone up for an exhibition with Jim the Skillmonkey?

Where did you find mention of it?

Anyway, a quick google search tells me it's third party, so no feat for you.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-09-24, 09:14 PM
Well, after that sound thrashing by PhoenixRivers' Warmarked, I feel like trying another match.

Anyone up for an exhibition against my Warmarked? (I think he's still unapproved)

Doc Roc
2009-09-24, 10:53 PM
I think I need to roll up some new maps. War-marked have just too-much reach for old columnsy.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-24, 10:57 PM
Well, a humiliating loss for my first skill monkey... Anyone know how to stop touchsight?

Cieyrin
2009-09-24, 11:12 PM
In the rules where it says Fighter is banned except for Dungeoncrasher, does that mean that you can only go up to Fighter 6 or whatever the ACF caps out at?

imperialspectre
2009-09-24, 11:16 PM
Why on earth would you go past Fighter 6?

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-24, 11:17 PM
Well, a humiliating loss for my first skill monkey... Anyone know how to stop touchsight?

There are 2 ways to stop Touchsight, that I know of. I'll PST you with more information.

Doc Roc
2009-09-24, 11:33 PM
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New bigger version of Ol' Columnsy.

Signmaker
2009-09-25, 12:01 AM
Well, a humiliating loss for my first skill monkey... Anyone know how to stop touchsight?

I believe incorporeality is one of the more obvious answers. Can't see what you can't feel. Being underground might also be an option, though I'm not entirely sure.

Doc Roc
2009-09-25, 12:13 AM
Simacrulum is now banned.

Signmaker
2009-09-25, 12:14 AM
But simulacrum is still fine, right? :smallwink:

Doc Roc
2009-09-25, 12:23 AM
But simulacrum is still fine, right? :smallwink:

I hate that word.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-25, 12:23 AM
I believe incorporeality is one of the more obvious answers. Can't see what you can't feel. Being underground might also be an option, though I'm not entirely sure.

Underground and Incorporeal both fall into the same category: Blocking LoE.

Doc Roc
2009-09-25, 12:26 AM
Funny question:

How do you guys feel about tattoos and potions? I'm not sure they fit within the schema of an arena, but I'm really reluctant to ban them because they're RealWorld Items.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-25, 12:29 AM
Funny question:

How do you guys feel about tattoos and potions? I'm not sure they fit within the schema of an arena, but I'm really reluctant to ban them because they're RealWorld Items.

At the very worst, I'd do as the DMG suggests for 1 shot adventures. Multiply the cost by 5.

Reasoning: Take a tattoo of touchsight, augmented to 100 feet.

Level 3 Power, Manifester level 9

3x9 = 15 x 50gp = 750gp
750gp x2 (personal range) = 1500 gp.

Make that x5, and it's now 7500 gp.
Worth it? Probably. A decent chunk of the budget? Yup.

Signmaker
2009-09-25, 12:59 AM
I'd casually like to note that Profane Item is a perma-tilldischarged itembuff spell which hurts animals/plants/goodoutsider/goodshapechangers when contact is made, involving negative energy damage and a save vs flee/cower effect. And, being a cleric spell, a cleric can arbitrarily have a quiver of arrows enchanted with it, since they don't go bad until discharged.

Also, sacred item does the exact same thing, but to evil outsiders, evil shapechanges, and undead.

Just sayin', useful stuff.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-25, 03:48 AM
Funny question:

How do you guys feel about tattoos and potions? I'm not sure they fit within the schema of an arena, but I'm really reluctant to ban them because they're RealWorld Items.
Only casters can have nice things?

Multiplying the price of all charged items (maybe items with less than 1/day uses too by a smaller factor) is one thing, but singling out the ones everyone can use would be silly.

If you multiply the price the Dark Powers should grant them back after every fight though.

Doc Roc
2009-09-25, 04:25 AM
As it stands, your inventory refreshes after all non-qualifier fights. I've got a couple other ideas about tattoos\potions.... We'll talk about it in chat sometime monday. I don't foresee taking any relevant action before then.

Aharon
2009-09-25, 05:49 AM
@all
While awesome, the match with the ~44000 damage wasn't legal. Drawing ammunition is a free action, and per the great rules, you are limited to thirty - so he could have pulled of at most 30 shots.

@Warmarked and new arena
Hm, the standard arena was ok for most builds for the last year. If the reach the warmarked has is to great for it, maybe you should reduce the reach and not enlarge the arena?

@Potions and Tattoos
I agree, the cost shouldn't be changed.

@Tide

Perhaps you should mention your definition of all-day buffs on the front page. I assumed something that lasts for the majority of the day, say, 10 hours or something, would qualify as an all-day buff until I read the last few posts.

Also:
In this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6976659&postcount=534), and in the ones linked in it, are still some unanswered questions regarding Truenaming.
It would be nice if you just shortly acknowledged you saw them and will eventually answer them, right now, I don't know if that's the case.

Alternatively, I could just build a character assuming my assumptions are right, but that would just defer the work of making rulings on the questions from you to whoever has to approve the sheet :smalltongue:

9mm
2009-09-25, 09:17 AM
Why on earth would you go past Fighter 6?

because you want moar feats, or your me, and like testing straight fighter ideas.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-09-25, 09:21 AM
Why on earth would you go past Fighter 6?

Same reason why I made a CW Samurai 13?

Doc Roc
2009-09-25, 10:08 AM
@all
While awesome, the match with the ~44000 damage wasn't legal. Drawing ammunition is a free action, and per the great rules, you are limited to thirty - so he could have pulled of at most 30 shots.


We know. It was too stupid and too funny to enforce it that time.



@Warmarked and new arena
Hm, the standard arena was ok for most builds for the last year. If the reach the warmarked has is to great for it, maybe you should reduce the reach and not enlarge the arena?


I've been considering enlarging the arena for quite a while. It's size was problematic with a wide variety of builds.





@Potions and Tattoos
I agree, the cost shouldn't be changed.


Hrum.




@Tide

Perhaps you should mention your definition of all-day buffs on the front page. I assumed something that lasts for the majority of the day, say, 10 hours or something, would qualify as an all-day buff until I read the last few posts.

Also:
In this post (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6976659&postcount=534), and in the ones linked in it, are still some unanswered questions regarding Truenaming.
It would be nice if you just shortly acknowledged you saw them and will eventually answer them, right now, I don't know if that's the case.

Alternatively, I could just build a character assuming my assumptions are right, but that would just defer the work of making rulings on the questions from you to whoever has to approve the sheet :smalltongue:

I'll see about making all-day buffs obvious. Researching your truename works just once. Items have been discussed. We use, where possible, the most recent version of rules.

Adumbration
2009-09-25, 10:35 AM
By the way, could my build that I pm'ed two weeks ago be checked for this weekend? I think I'll have evening access to a computer next week, so it would be nice to have an actual, legal fight for it. Sent it to Claudius, if memory serves.

Cieyrin
2009-09-25, 11:23 AM
Why on earth would you go past Fighter 6?

Doesn't answer my question, either, though. :smallannoyed:

I also note Iron Kingdoms being tentatively available, so Gun Mage and Magelocks are tentatively available? If I were to build one, I'd need a set price for Magelocks, as they are never straight-out priced in the Character Guide, though there were better guidelines in an article in No Quarter, though I don't have access to it right this minute. :smallfrown:

Doc Roc
2009-09-25, 11:29 AM
Doesn't answer my question, either, though. :smallannoyed:

I also note Iron Kingdoms being tentatively available, so Gun Mage and Magelocks are tentatively available? If I were to build one, I'd need a set price for Magelocks, as they are never straight-out priced in the Character Guide, though there were better guidelines in an article in No Quarter, though I don't have access to it right this minute. :smallfrown:

It should be sitting on the mantle in my apartment. I'll take a look when I get back to my haus. In theory, yes, they are allowed. My experience with gun-mages hasn't been hugely positive, particularly given the overall power level of 3.5.X, but I'd love to see one on the sign-up sheet. I'll handle your sheet-review myself.

Cieyrin
2009-09-25, 01:01 PM
It should be sitting on the mantle in my apartment. I'll take a look when I get back to my haus. In theory, yes, they are allowed. My experience with gun-mages hasn't been hugely positive, particularly given the overall power level of 3.5.X, but I'd love to see one on the sign-up sheet. I'll handle your sheet-review myself.

Sweetness! I'll get on it when you get me the guidelines. I also found that the Magelock article is in No Quarter #6, which I now kinda regret grabbing when I grabbed the rest of my d20 books from storage a couple weeks back. It had further info on Gunmages as well, which hurts a bit more, but I guess that would probably fall under the Dragon and Dungeon Magazine ban, anyways, so it doesn't matter in the end, anyways.

Doc Roc
2009-09-25, 01:19 PM
I don't see a compelling reason not to just treat magelocks like slightly more expensive magical weapons. Why cripple a damaged class?

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-25, 01:24 PM
By the way, could my build that I pm'ed two weeks ago be checked for this weekend? I think I'll have evening access to a computer next week, so it would be nice to have an actual, legal fight for it. Sent it to Claudius, if memory serves.

I've been putting him off due to its complexity, but I am now in a position where I have access to all the relevant books. I'll get to it sooner rather than later. Probably today or tomorrow.

My sheet checking rate has been way down since I went back to school, and it doesn't look like any of the other sheet checkers are active, so it looks like delays like this are not going to be unusual. :smallfrown:
Speaking of qualifiers, I still have an approved tier 3 character. Anyone want to have a qualification match against him? I believe Sofawall has offered to approve my opponent.

Adumbration
2009-09-25, 01:57 PM
I've been putting him off due to its complexity, but I am now in a position where I have access to all the relevant books. I'll get to it sooner rather than later. Probably today or tomorrow.

My sheet checking rate has been way down since I went back to school, and it doesn't look like any of the other sheet checkers are active, so it looks like delays like this are not going to be unusual. :smallfrown:
Speaking of qualifiers, I still have an approved tier 3 character. Anyone want to have a qualification match against him? I believe Sofawall has offered to approve my opponent.

No problem. Going to change two of my feats, at any rate: trickery and travel devotion to sudden metamagic feats.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-09-25, 02:10 PM
Anyone got a character they want to run against my (still unapproved) Warmarked? I'm interested in trying him out against casters, but any matchup would be fun.

Arakune
2009-09-25, 02:18 PM
Anyone got a character they want to run against my (still unapproved) Warmarked? I'm interested in trying him out against casters, but any matchup would be fun.

I want to try. It's a semi-minion mancer. Can you make the thread?

Mushroom Ninja
2009-09-25, 02:29 PM
All right Here's the Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6998006#post6998006)

Human Paragon 3
2009-09-25, 02:30 PM
I've been putting him off due to its complexity, but I am now in a position where I have access to all the relevant books. I'll get to it sooner rather than later. Probably today or tomorrow.

My sheet checking rate has been way down since I went back to school, and it doesn't look like any of the other sheet checkers are active, so it looks like delays like this are not going to be unusual. :smallfrown:
Speaking of qualifiers, I still have an approved tier 3 character. Anyone want to have a qualification match against him? I believe Sofawall has offered to approve my opponent.

I'd throw up my rogue, but you've already played against him.

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-25, 02:43 PM
I also checked him, so that's a double no. Maybe I shouldn't have had so many exhibitions...

Cieyrin
2009-09-25, 03:02 PM
I don't see a compelling reason not to just treat magelocks like slightly more expensive magical weapons. Why cripple a damaged class?

From checking the Unofficial Iron Kingdoms RPG FAQ (http://www.privateerpressforums.com/index.php?showtopic=79042), it would seem that magelocks would probably be of a class beyond masterwork, akin to dwarvencraft. Given most of the properties of magelocks don't really come out for anyone not a Gun Mage, it would seem reasonable to price it along similar lines.

As for the fire arms themselves, would it be as per the Character Guide's description, with Exotic Weapon Proficiency applying to the whole category of fire arms, Craft(Small Arms) and Concentration checks to reload, unreducable reload times except by the Pistoler and Rifleman (which I find frankly a little silly. Most people I play with agree that they should be Rapid Reloadable, possibly also by the Quick Loading property (MiC, pg. 41). Of course, 'most people I play with' isn't you, Tide.:smalltongue:), etc? I also suppose ammunition is the average cost listed (given they're all listed with price ranges and all).

I'm realizing now that this may need a bit more adjudication than I was originally thinking. Ah well, it should be worth the wait, I'd say.:smallamused:

Arakune
2009-09-25, 03:43 PM
Can anyone validade my actions in the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6998006#post6998006)?

DMs only

Basicaly I used Temporal Acc. to "fill' my turnly alowed quota of actions.
Also, when the Astral Constuct will show itself?


Thanks

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-25, 07:15 PM
I would offer someone to face my latest build, but it's something of a "joke match only" character.

sofawall
2009-09-25, 08:43 PM
I'd love to play a joke match.

Signmaker
2009-09-25, 08:51 PM
I'd love to play a joke match.

Oh dear god no.

Cieyrin
2009-09-25, 08:54 PM
I'd love to play a joke match.

A duel of Jesters?

sofawall
2009-09-25, 08:55 PM
Oh dear god no.

It's even scarier. I can actually see things now.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-25, 09:09 PM
I'd love to play a joke match.

In that case, I'll be free in a few hours, after me and the woman enjoy some pie...

...and no, that's not code for anything. I have a chocolate pie here.

sofawall
2009-09-25, 09:10 PM
Heh heh.

Alright, I'd better get some copy-pasta ready. Talk to me on Techin when ready, kay?

EDIT: For those who know my build, I'm also a summoner-lite now.

Yes, now Pheonix knows, but still, not that big a deal.

Master_Rahl22
2009-09-25, 09:43 PM
I'm up for a qualifier with a Tier 3. Claudius checked my sheet, so I'll need to be up against somebody else.

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-25, 09:54 PM
How about a 2v2? If you're on my team, I don't think it would be that big a deal if I knew what your character could do.

We haven't had a 2v2 in a long time, and I've been eager to check out that new larger map, which is quite suited for multiple characters.

sofawall
2009-09-25, 10:02 PM
In that case, I'll be free in a few hours, after me and the woman enjoy some pie...

...and no, that's not code for anything. I have a chocolate pie here.

Sorry, but I overestimated the caffeine in my system. I'll have to take a raincheck. Maybe tomorrow? I'll be alive then, barring tragedy.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-25, 10:07 PM
Sorry, but I overestimated the caffeine in my system. I'll have to take a raincheck. Maybe tomorrow? I'll be alive then, barring tragedy.

Fair enough. :)

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-25, 11:51 PM
Is touchsight affected by Spell Immunity (touchsight)?

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-25, 11:54 PM
No. Touchsight does not affect your opponent, and doesn't allow SR/PR at any rate. Also, it might not qualify for Spell Immunity on the basis of being a psionic power.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-26, 12:11 AM
I thought that ToS had full magic/psionic transparency?

Edit: perhaps mind blank then?

Signmaker
2009-09-26, 12:26 AM
I don't think Touchsight is mind-affecting or divination..

Block LoE and you're fine.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-26, 12:28 AM
It's not divination.

Unless they use transdimensional power it won't detect incorporeal/ethereal creatures.

If you're flying far enough from any objects a minor globe of invulnerability or an AMF should work too (they can feel objects, if you are close to one it will disappear from their touchsight and they know where you are).

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-26, 06:32 AM
Problem with ethereal is that it's very difficult to affect material plane while you're there. Not impossible, but rough.

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-26, 01:54 PM
So Tide changed his name to Doc Roc? That's going to be confusing to anyone reading the older posts.

At any rate, we need to determine what happens when Touchsight interacts with Antimagic Field and Globe of Invulnerability. Is there a conspicuous blind spot that lets the manifester pinpoint the field? Is it even blocked at all? Touchsight isn't technically a magical emanation, after all; it just gives the manifester an extra sense. These spells wouldn't block scent obtained from a buff; would Touchsight be similarly unaffected?

sofawall
2009-09-26, 02:46 PM
I suspect Touchsight would not be affected by an Antimagic Field.

PinkysBrain
2009-09-26, 03:22 PM
Touchsight isn't technically a magical emanation, after all
It's a range "Personal; see text" and the text does mention emanation, so that's debatable.

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-26, 03:37 PM
This kind of debate is why I brought it up. Is it a typical emanation, that can be detected by Detect Magic and excluded from Antimagic Fields, or is it more like a Light spell, where the light emanating from the object is not magical in itself, though it follows the rules for emanations?

By the way, I'm willing to do 3rd party LoS in matches, if anyone wants to opt to do that. It adds to the length of a match, but it does prevent your opponents from knowing your senses and acting on such privileged information.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-26, 03:45 PM
Cladius, that would be pretty useful to do.

Touchsight: I'm not sure about everyone else, but it's pretty powerful, maybe overly so...

If it's not stopped by AMF, then incorpereal and breaking LoE are the only options.

Neither of which are practical; it's hard to affect the opponent while incorporeal, while breaking LoE renders most ranged options used by stealthy people useless as most require LoE to work.

I really don't like how touchsight, a 3rd level power, could completely negate all the hide training that a post-Epic invisible rogue ever had

PinkysBrain
2009-09-26, 03:50 PM
or is it more like a Light spell, where the light emanating from the object is not magical in itself, though it follows the rules for emanations?
Hmm? The light is magical, it doesn't interact with darkness spells like normal light. Also the range isn't see text, so the connection is rather tenuous. IMO for touchsight there is simply not enough rules context to make the decision (hell even globe of invulnerability interaction with psionics though commonly accepted is based on rather circumstantial reading of the rules).

This kind of stuff is simply outside of the rules, DM fiat domain. Personally I'd rule it based on balance and verisimilitude ... so "air is not an object" and "it detects nothing inside globe/AMF".

That said, sniping/hiding is ridiculously overpowered which can lead to very boring arena fights ... but that's a completely different issue (and hell, it's no more boring than getting one shotted after losing initiative).

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-26, 03:58 PM
I'd be inclined to rule that AMF and Globe of Invulnerability stop Touchsight, personally. It's a tad powerful otherwise, and it makes more sense, considering Touchsight is a telekinetic field. What do you guys think?

Mushroom Ninja
2009-09-26, 04:09 PM
Does the Mage Slayer feat work against psionics in Test of Spite?

Arakune
2009-09-26, 05:16 PM
Reporting back. If mageslayer doesn't work, I won. If not, my chances to win are... negligible.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-26, 05:19 PM
Psionics are considered to be spells in all ways, except where it explicitly states nontransparency. There are very few abilities that do this.

Also, DM's:Boomerang Daze, from Races of Eberron...

Does is specify a specific, individual weapon?

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-26, 05:45 PM
While waiting for Touchsight to resolve, anyone up for an exhibition match against Jim?

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-26, 08:24 PM
Well, Ive got a character who hasnt finished being checked...

If you want to face one of Tide's monks...

sofawall
2009-09-26, 08:43 PM
Phoenix
For what purpose. Don't be coy with the DMs :P

EDIT: Wait... Aptitude?

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-26, 08:45 PM
Sure that'd be fine

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-26, 09:02 PM
Ok, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7007057#post7007057) it is...

Oh, and you may be pleased to know, my character is a lot weaker than previously believed...

Doc Roc
2009-09-26, 10:11 PM
So happy to be Doc Roc again.

sofawall
2009-09-26, 10:26 PM
So happy to confuse people reading earlier pages.

Where is this "Tide" person? And why does Doc Roc keep answering for him?

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-27, 12:11 AM
And to make matters worse...some of us will still refer to you as Tide...

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-27, 12:15 AM
By the way, Test of Spiters, if you could PM me your favorite moments of The Monkening, I would appreciate it.

Doc Roc
2009-09-27, 02:40 PM
You already posted mine. :)

Human Paragon 3
2009-09-27, 07:44 PM
Does the forest map (and similar) count as "loose earth" for the purpose of the sand-x feats from Sandstorm? ("As long as the ground is covered in at least 1 inch of sand, ash, dust or loose earth...")

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-27, 07:49 PM
I take that to mean something like a recently plowed field. Grass tends to keep soil in place, sometimes quite firmly.

I'd recommend against an ability that relies on environment you can't create yourself. Get a means to make an area like that, and you won't be limited in your choice of map.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-27, 08:24 PM
Does the forest map's ground count as stone or how the edges of the ground next to the water as sand?

What about the columns map? Does the floor count as worked stone?

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-27, 08:31 PM
You know, a lot of this should probably be agreed upon when you make suggestions for a map. You're free to suggest using the forest map "except it's all sand instead of grass", for example. You could easily just make a map like that anyway.

That said, I'd assume that by default, the column map is worked stone, and the forest map has a soil and grass ground. It doesn't look like there's a significant amount of sand; there is some at the edges of the stream, but there's not a 5-foot square of it or anything.

Human Paragon 3
2009-09-27, 08:34 PM
DMs:
A tiny scorpion is standing in a square covered in 1 foot of sand. Can he use the sand to hide? Can he cover himself in sand for cover? How about total cover?

What if the scorpion was size fine?

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-27, 11:18 PM
Phoenix
For what purpose. Don't be coy with the DMs :P

EDIT: Wait... Aptitude?

@DM's:Exactly. Aptitude. Someone's using the Boomerang Daze ability in a match against me with an Aptitude shield. I just want to verify the legality of such a tactic.

Master_Rahl22
2009-09-28, 07:12 AM
How about a 2v2? If you're on my team, I don't think it would be that big a deal if I knew what your character could do.

We haven't had a 2v2 in a long time, and I've been eager to check out that new larger map, which is quite suited for multiple characters.

I'm up for that if Claudius still needs the fight.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-28, 07:38 AM
I'll do 2v2 as well. Warmarked or not, no matter.

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-28, 09:17 AM
We're talking about a qualifier. I think the Warmarked is only exhibition-legal.

That said, I'm up for a 2v2 exhibition, separate from this one. I'd use a different character, though. Also, I couldn't use the new map with the new character.

Phoenix and the other DMs:
It looks like it would work to me. The feat says nothing about e.g. having to throw a boomerang. I think Aptitude would pretty much go into a feat's text and replace the name of a given weapon with the Aptitude weapon. By that criterion, the Boomdaze trick works.

Doc Roc
2009-09-28, 10:36 AM
We're talking about a qualifier. I think the Warmarked is only exhibition-legal.

That said, I'm up for a 2v2 exhibition, separate from this one. I'd use a different character, though. Also, I couldn't use the new map with the new character.

Phoenix and the other DMs:
It looks like it would work to me. The feat says nothing about e.g. having to throw a boomerang. I think Aptitude would pretty much go into a feat's text and replace the name of a given weapon with the Aptitude weapon. By that criterion, the Boomdaze trick works.

PR&&DMs

I will, in the general sense, support things that enable Captain America.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-28, 12:02 PM
Hm. Well, I'll bow out of qualifier, unless someone wants to ratify my psion for qualifiers.

Doc Roc
2009-09-28, 02:36 PM
Send him to me, PR.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-28, 08:38 PM
Does the Elusive Target tactical feat's ability Negate Power Attack override Shock Trooper's decrease to AC and change it back to an Attack Penalty?

Edit: Finally found rules for fighting while standing on an opponent's head: (Complete Warrior feat Giantbane)
-Opponent gets -4 to attack someone on them
-If they move you go with them
-They can shake you off with a Grapple check opposed by my Climb check, if he succeeds I end up in a random adjacent square

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-28, 08:55 PM
Does the Elusive Target tactical feat's ability Negate Power Attack override Shock Trooper's decrease to AC and change it back to an Attack Penalty?

I wouldn't think so. I you would still negate their extra damage, though.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-28, 11:26 PM
Does the Elusive Target tactical feat's ability Negate Power Attack override Shock Trooper's decrease to AC and change it back to an Attack Penalty?


I do believe that Shock Trooper's decrease to AC overrides Elusive Target's text on Keeping the penalty to attack.

End Result:

Shock Trooper: Wherever you see (penalty to attack), use (penalty to AC) instead, for power attack.

Negate power attack: Negate the bonus to damage from the target you select for your dodge feat. The target still suffers any (penalty to attack) (penalty to AC).

So final ability is, IMO: still keep the penalties, don't get the bonuses (as Claudius stated, but in more detail).

Doc Roc
2009-09-28, 11:58 PM
Thoughts on this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031225a), and if it should be legal as is? if it is, I'm going to need to first post it.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-29, 04:21 AM
The Psion's been ratified, so I'm good for a 2v2. Just let me know who my partner is.

Master_Rahl22
2009-09-29, 08:18 AM
I think it's just you, me, and Claudius involved so far Phoenix. Since Claudius checked my sheet, I'm thinking we should be on the same team. So, anybody want to partner up with Phoenix for our 2v2 qualifier?

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-29, 08:29 AM
I'll go with Phoenix....PR, would you prefer a nova-tastic psion or a summoner cleric? I beat two people at once with both of them. They are two of my actually powerful qualified characters.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-29, 08:46 AM
I've sent my request. Let's blow stuff up... with our minds.

Eurus
2009-09-29, 09:08 AM
Thoughts on this article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031225a), and if it should be legal as is? if it is, I'm going to need to first post it.

I only had time to take a quick look at it, but hypothetically would using that article mean you could make a tattoo of a power with an XP cost (let's say Reality Revision), and link it to a Capacitor and a Transducer? So not only could you manifest a power beyond your normal abilities and bypass any XP costs, but you could recharge the tattoo and do it repeatedly? For just under 10k gold or so?

Also, Relays. That is all.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-29, 09:30 AM
So...who's starting the thread?

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-29, 09:48 AM
2v2 Qualifier Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7023715#post7023715)

Human Paragon 3
2009-09-29, 09:54 AM
Does the Elusive Target tactical feat's ability Negate Power Attack override Shock Trooper's decrease to AC and change it back to an Attack Penalty?

Edit: Finally found rules for fighting while standing on an opponent's head: (Complete Warrior feat Giantbane)
-Opponent gets -4 to attack someone on them
-If they move you go with them
-They can shake you off with a Grapple check opposed by my Climb check, if he succeeds I end up in a random adjacent square

That's only if you have that feat though. I don't think you get all those benefits without it, otherwise, what's the point of the feat?

I still have some unanswered questions in post 722, btw. Would appreciate a DM's ruling.

Doc Roc
2009-09-29, 12:04 PM
That's only if you have that feat though. I don't think you get all those benefits without it, otherwise, what's the point of the feat?

I still have some unanswered questions in post 722, btw. Would appreciate a DM's ruling.

They're really good questions. I'm not sure about an RAW answer.

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-29, 02:01 PM
Anyone interested in doing LoS for our 2v2? We probably have all kinds of different senses flying around, and I'd like to keep metagaming to a minimum.

Doc Roc
2009-09-29, 05:06 PM
I'll try to find someone. :)

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-29, 06:11 PM
I'll do it if you need

Claudius Maximus
2009-09-29, 06:20 PM
I would appreciate that. Try to keep track of any crazy senses people have.

Some things to keep in mind about my character in particular:
I have a ring of Spell-Battle, so I can detect all spellcasting within 60 feet of me. I think this overcomes LoE. Also, I have 100 ft. Mindsight. I have Arcane Sight up too, which can get tedious with all the aura strengths and schools and what have you. If you still want to deal with all that, thank you very much. Hopefully the others have less complicated senses.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-09-29, 06:23 PM
No problem, I think I'll be able to deal with it

sofawall
2009-09-29, 07:29 PM
They're really good questions. I'm not sure about an RAW answer.

Dangit, when Tide Doc Roc asks a RAW question, it usually means he's gonna seek me out next time I log in to Meebo...

Well, I have no clue RAW. Thinking about it, you really can't dig without a burrow speed...

I'd say... Move action to cover yourself with it to get concealment. That is my opinion.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-29, 08:04 PM
Dangit, when Tide Doc Roc asks a RAW question, it usually means he's gonna seek me out next time I log in to Meebo...

Well, I have no clue RAW. Thinking about it, you really can't dig without a burrow speed...

I'd say... Move action to cover yourself with it to get concealment. That is my opinion.

There are feats in Sandstorm that allow for similar moves. I'd say that without them, it's not really feasible. That's my personal opinion, though.

Human Paragon 3
2009-09-29, 08:56 PM
Believe it or not, there aren't feats that let you gain cover like that in sandstorm, there are only feats that give a bonus to hide in sandy areas.