The Test of Spite [3.51]

[PhoenixRivers]

Believe it or not, there aren't feats that let you gain cover like that in sandstorm, there are only feats that give a bonus to hide in sandy areas.

The feat in question explicitly states that you're burying yourself in sand, and explicitly states that it does not grant cover or concealment.

It'd be kinda silly to think that someone without the feat would get cover or concealment from the same exact action, no?

[Human Paragon 3]

it's also strange that being covered in sand does not grant cover or concealment.

[Doc Roc]

The issue is actually: What is cover for a fine creature? I suggest you bring The Smallest Tower Shield. :))

[PhoenixRivers]

Now, what's REALLY strange, is that you can hide behind a tower shield, and, since it's an attended object, it hides with you.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Anyone want an exhibition against my Warmarked?

[Claudius Maximus]

Wat are the parameters for speaking IC? How much can we say as a free action? Can we speak out of turn? If so, how much?

[Doc Roc]

It's classically a word for free action, and you can speak out of turn.

[sofawall]

One word per free action?

This is going to be sending (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0337.html) all over again.

[Doc Roc]

Link to the problem or more info please?

[Claudius Maximus]

About the talking as a free action/out of turn thing? We did it here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126655&page=2) (posts 40 and 41). I took what you said to mean that we can say one word at any time as a free action. Since we have 30 free actions a round, I thought that meant there would be a 30 word limit.

[Doc Roc]

That is correct.

[PhoenixRivers]

That is correct.

Less, if you plan on using free actions for other things.

[Doc Roc]

Less, if you plan on using free actions for other things.

Why would I do anything other than talk? :)

[Cieyrin]

Why would I do anything other than talk? :)

Well, so much for witty banter in combat anymore for archers.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Well, so much for witty banter in combat anymore for archers.

Bah, who needs it? Archer banter consists of MOAR ARROWS!

[Doc Roc]

Bah, who needs it? Archer banter consists of MOAR ARROWS!

Interestingly, the cap on free actions places a max on the number of arrows a character can fire in a round. It may, as a result, need to be increased slightly.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Interestingly, the cap on free actions places a max on the number of arrows a character can fire in a round. It may, as a result, need to be increased slightly.

Is there a build that needs to fire more than 30 arrows a round (not including splitting arrows)? :smalleek:

[Doc Roc]

A few, yeah.

[Claudius Maximus]

I actually have some free time this weekend, so I'm going to get back to checking sheets. I'm going to favor older sheets and characters that can qualify for the dungeons over exhibition-only characters. If anyone is still expecting word back from me, please contact me and I'll tell you what's up with your sheet. Also, if anyone is withdrawing any characters, tell me ASAP.

[9mm]

Munster the Cuddley is now done.

[IthilanorStPete]

My first character's submitted. Cleric, I'd guess tier 3 or 4.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

My first character's submitted. Cleric, I'd guess tier 3 or 4.

Wow... that's impressive. Making a Cleric Tier 4 is just as difficult as making a CW Samurai Tier 3... it's hard to sub-optimize a cleric that far down unless you start gimping his spell list deliberately.

I mean, right out of the box, it's hard to take down a Cleric due to all the healing he can drop on himself, he can usually engineer situations in which he can have several pre-buff rounds to make himself a better fighter than most of the Core 'tank' classes, and has a decent "Save or Screwed" spell selection which includes some Save or Die effects.

That's without DMM Shenanigans, without Arrow Demon tricks, without Cracksticks, and without certain other methods of cheese.

[IthilanorStPete]

Well, it's just a rough guess; my optimization-fu isn't strong enough to get more than a rough feel for how powerful it is. And I'm going by the tier system for just here in the ToS, the one Tide laid out here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6562949&postcount=1136). Actually looking at that post, I'd say I'm pretty definitely in tier 3.

[sofawall]

Reading that post, I managed to come up with an example for a Tier 0.5.

The Borg Cube.

[Adumbration]

Reading that post, I managed to come up with an example for a Tier 0.5.

The Borg Cube.

Care to specify? My google-fu fails due to the borg part: too many hits.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Care to specify? My google-fu fails due to the borg part: too many hits.

I believe it exploits Hive Mind in ways that makes Leadership green with envy...

[sofawall]

Not even close.

I made a build using Stronghold Builder's Guide, and unless you were ready for it, chances were you couldn't even touch me.

[PhoenixRivers]

Not even close.

I made a build using Stronghold Builder's Guide, and unless you were ready for it, chances were you couldn't even touch me.

Exploit of cover rules?

[9mm]

Exploit of cover rules?

*has seen the build*

Oh how I wish it were that simple....

[PhoenixRivers]

*has seen the build*

Oh how I wish it were that simple....

Has not seen the build.

[Signmaker]

*has seen the build*

Oh how I wish it were that simple....

*has FOUGHT the build*

It was a draw, a close one. I drew by virtue of "I can go underground, and you can't see underground." So unless he felt like systematically drilling away the earth, I managed to not die scot-free.

Having to make fourteen saves before that were to occur was NOT amusing.

[Claudius Maximus]

I guess this explains why SBG is banned. I never noticed until now. Is it recent?

[Arakune]

I guess this explains why SBG is banned. I never noticed until now. Is it recent?

Yes, it was a runtime ban.

[Claudius Maximus]

I never saw that battle. Anyone care to link it or to put it on the front page?

[Signmaker]

I never saw that battle. Anyone care to link it or to put it on the front page?

As per Sofa's request, both the battle and the runtime ban were kept discreet. Cause there's something about a borg cube that surprises you. It's not so fun when everyone knows about it.

[Doc Roc]

we need some more sheet checkers. Thoughts, guys?

[sofawall]

If anyone wants to fight it to see what it does, I'm game.

EDIT: The Borg cube, that is.

[PhoenixRivers]

No thanks.

I just looked in the SHBG. If it is what I think it is, I'd need to build a AMF Focused grapple character with all saves in the +20-25 range.

EDIT: Or a warmarked with the same saves.

[Mushroom Ninja]

If anyone wants to fight it to see what it does, I'm game.

EDIT: The Borg cube, that is.

Sure, it sounds really interesting, and I've been wanting to play around with my warmarked anyway. Do you want to set up the thread?

[sofawall]

You go ahead.

I don't know where any maps are or anything.

EDIT: If you sign into the Test of Spite chat room (in Doc Roc's sig) it'd help. Like, a ton.

[Mushroom Ninja]

You go ahead.

I don't know where any maps are or anything.

EDIT: If you sign into the Test of Spite chat room (in Doc Roc's sig) it'd help. Like, a ton.

Alright, it's up and ready.

[Adumbration]

Questions for DM:

A) Will you allow the use of Siren prestige class from Savage species?
B) Is bardic music considered sufficient innate, sonic mind-affecting ability for qualifying?

[Claudius Maximus]

Adumbration:
I'll leave the approval to Doc Roc, but as for your second question, I'd say that Bardic Music is not innate.

[Doc Roc]

I am unwilling, in general, to allow anything from SS. In this case, there's no compelling reason to bend on that.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Few questions

1. Can I buy a sack of rabbits for my swordsage?
2. Can I use coup de graces with Great Cleave?
3. Can I attack the rabbits during my buff rounds?
4. What are the prices for buying rabbits?
5. Can I swap out the Cloistered Cleric's Lore ability for Bardic Knack (Cleric Knack)? since Lore says it is identical to bardic lore?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Few questions

1. Can I buy a sack of rabbits for my swordsage?
2. Can I use coup de graces with Great Cleave?
3. Can I attack the rabbits during my buff rounds?
4. What are the prices for buying rabbits?
5. Can I swap out the Cloistered Cleric's Lore ability for Bardic Knack (Cleric Knack)? since Lore says it is identical to bardic lore?

Please tell me this is not a prep for the Warmind Loop... or Blood In The Water for 'auto-confirming crits on CDG'...

[PinkysBrain]

Is an infinite loop which only becomes finite because of the action limit still considered an infinite loop as far as the rules is concerned? (Hounds etc.)

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Please tell me this is not a prep for the Warmind Loop... or Blood In The Water for 'auto-confirming crits on CDG'...

Maybe... but what is the Warmind Loop?

Cleric question is unrelated

[Mushroom Ninja]

You go ahead.


Here's the thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7050056#post7050056)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Maybe... but what is the Warmind Loop?

Cleric question is unrelated

Warmind 5 has the ability:


Sweeping Strike (Ex)

At 5th level, a war mind gains the ability to make great, sweeping swings with a melee weapon. On each melee attack a war mind makes, he can choose squares he threatens that are adjacent to each other, and his attacks apply to creatures in those two squares equally. A war mind can use this ability on any attack, even an attack of opportunity or a cleave attempt.

A war mind cannot use this ability if he has moved more than 10 feet since the end of his last turn. If a war mind drops one or both of his foes with a sweeping strike, he can attempt a cleave normally; however, he makes only one cleave attempt per sweeping strike, even if he drops more than one foe.

Combine this with Great Cleave, which gives you a free attack per kill.

So you get into melee range with opponent, and attack a bunny, and a free attack on your opponent. But you kill the bunny, so due to great cleave, you get another attack. Which you use on another bunny. Rinse, wash, repeat.

However, since you were using both Swordsage and CDG (which has to be a full round action, or a Standard Action with a feat from Complete Adventurer), I'm betting on Blood In The Water to pump up your Threat range to Yes.

Your combo does not work, because CDG is not an attack action, thus you cannot use it with the attack granted by Great Cleave. You would need something that can give at least a standard action to perform a CDG with it.

Also, a CDG can only be applied to a creature which is "Helpless". This is a condition I am trying to find a way to inflict for my own build, which is a CW Samurai which literally scares you into submission. However, he takes 20+ rounds to finally whittle your health down, which sucks. If I can make someone Helpless, I can CDG them down, and move on to the next victim quicker, however for a non-caster, that is trickier than I first believed.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Well, I was hoping to maybe use a low level magic item to put them all to sleep or something, because I don't think they have a full hit die.

As for the full round, isn't there a feat that allows him to CDG as a standard action?

btw Blood in the Water doesn't increase just Crit Confirmation, it's a +1 bonus to Attack and Damage rolls

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, I was hoping to maybe use a low level magic item to put them all to sleep or something, because I don't think they have a full hit die.

As for the full round, isn't there a feat that allows him to CDG as a standard action?

btw Blood in the Water doesn't increase just Crit Confirmation, it's a +1 bonus to Attack and Damage rolls

I mentioned the feat which CDG's as standard action. However, Standard Action *IS NOT* an Attack Action, which is the only thing the Great Cleave allows.

So no, your combo does not work.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Oh well, time to move on

Any idea about replacing Cloistered Cleric Lore with Bardic Knack?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

GM's only please:Okay, according to the SRD, the condition for being Helpless is:


A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy Italics part placed for emphasis.

For my CW Samurai build, once I get them Cowering, they are completely at my character's mercy, because they can take no actions. Does this qualify for the Helpless condition and allow my character to CDG?

Mostly, I'm trying to speed things up once I have someone locked down and make him viable enough to actually use in qualification rounds to truly join the Test of Spite.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

DM's
The feat Spell Thematics says it allows me to choose a theme for my spells, is there a limit to what I can pick for it, mechanics aside? Could I say, pick Enervating Rays or Shadows as my theme?

[Doc Roc]

DM's
The feat Spell Thematics says it allows me to choose a theme for my spells, is there a limit to what I can pick for it, mechanics aside? Could I say, pick Enervating Rays or Shadows as my theme?


Spell thematics affects ONLY the visual themes. Beyond that, the limits are that you cannot do anything that would make the spell generally less visible, like pick Two-Dimensional Sprites as your theme, or Nothing At All as your effects. You might be looking more for the False Theurgy skill trick.

[Doc Roc]

Preemptive ban for Amulet of Peace.

[Thelas]

Just asking so I understand this properly...
The differences between an exhibition and a qualifier are:
a) sometimes exhibitions may be less stringent in rules requirements
b) the winner of a qualifier gets sent into the dungeon proper
c) the loser of a qualifier gives their items to the winner.
-----------
Questions:
a) If you lose a qualifier, do you have to retire the character?
b) If so, can your new character be the same general theme, but with minor changes? (IE different magic items/different spells prepared/etc.)
c) If you lose a qualifier, do you give identified magic items or just, for example, "a light red potion" or somesuch?

[9mm]

Just asking so I understand this properly...

Questions:
a) If you lose a qualifier, do you have to retire the character?
b) If so, can your new character be the same general theme, but with minor changes? (IE different magic items/different spells prepared/etc.)
c) If you lose a qualifier, do you give identified magic items or just, for example, "a light red potion" or somesuch?

A) no, just a tick in the lose collum
B) you can go an tweak, but you need to get the character re-approved
C)no, because they go to sigil and everything will get IDed.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Spell thematics affects ONLY the visual themes. Beyond that, the limits are that you cannot do anything that would make the spell generally less visible, like pick Two-Dimensional Sprites as your theme, or Nothing At All as your effects. You might be looking more for the False Theurgy skill trick.


Doc Roc
So choosing Shadows, so I can fool my opponent into thinking I'm using the Shadow spells line, as my theme would be out?

[Doc Roc]

Doc Roc
So choosing Shadows, so I can fool my opponent into thinking I'm using the Shadow spells line, as my theme would be out?

No, that's allowed, but it isn't mechanically superior to the benefits already listed for the feat. In other words, it doesn't offer a greater benefit than the .... +4 is it? that the feat itself gives. Now, just as a reminder...

Sharn

That feat is a pre-req for halruaan elder, from shining south, one of the best remaining options for meta-magic cost reduction.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Noted, however do you know any PrCs for Favored Souls? I figure Sacred Exorcist is a give for Turn Undead, but perhaps Contemplative and Divine Oracle for domains?

[Doc Roc]

Sacred Exorcist is awesome for them.... Depends on what you want to do with your FS, after that.

[PinkysBrain]

Preemptive ban for Amulet of Peace.
Damnit. 10ch

[PhoenixRivers]

Damnit. 10ch

Yeah, you can thank me for pointing that one out.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Does getting domains grant domain slots or do I have to use my regular slots?

On a side note, some of these things on the list don't seem like could be used at the current level. Are you writing some of these rules based on the fact that characters might level up?

Wow, LoS is hard, everyone has to have some kind of special vision.

[PhoenixRivers]

Does getting domains grant domain slots or do I have to use my regular slots?Per RAW, when a class that normally does not have domain slots (Favored Soul, Druid, etc) gains them, they may choose to use one (and only one) of their normal slots at each level for a domain spell. They do not receive bonus spells for those domains.


On a side note, some of these things on the list don't seem like could be used at the current level. Are you writing some of these rules based on the fact that characters might level up?They can be. Any sufficiently advanced optimization is indistinguishable from cheating. ;)


Wow, LoS is hard, everyone has to have some kind of special vision.
Time consuming is more accurate. Take each person, one at a time. Trace LOS to everyone else. If LOS exists, check sight modes to see if they can. If it's distance based (True Seeing, for example, with a range of 120'), treat diagonals as if you were moving a character (1st diagonal = 5 feet, 2nd diagonal = 10 feet) to see if the vision mode is in range. If cover or concealment exists and applies, compare hide vs spot. Roll if necessary.

Repeat for all characters involved.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

True, but I'm referring to all the abilities that everyone has and the fact that no ever stays 45 or 90 degrees of eachother and that's without factoring the z axis from flying and such

[PhoenixRivers]

True, but I'm referring to all the abilities that everyone has and the fact that no ever stays 45 or 90 degrees of eachother and that's without factoring the z axis from flying and such

Follow it as close as you can. If I'm in A1, and my opponent's in D13, 20 feet up, count diagonals from A1 to D4 (4 diagonals, 30 feet). Then diagonals from D4 to D8(+20) (4 diagonals, 30 feet) Count the remaining in a straight line. (D8-D13 - 5 squares, 25 feet). Add it together. (85 feet)

Done. And yes, it's accurate. As long as a straight line is clear, this method will yield correct D&D distances.

Z axis is easiest to handle by flipping it sideways. Turn big problems to little problems, and it all works out.

[Signmaker]

True, but I'm referring to all the abilities that everyone has and the fact that no ever stays 45 or 90 degrees of eachother and that's without factoring the z axis from flying and such

So your issue is three-dimensional hypotenuses of triangles? That's actually not too bad.

Step 1. Calculate x axis difference.
Step 2. Calculate y axis difference.
Step 3. Calculate z axis difference.
Step 4. Square steps 1,2,3.
Step 5. Add the squared differences.
Step 6. Square root the sum of the squares.
Step 7. Round to nearest 5 foot increment.

Edit: Actually, I'm not quite sure how that compares with the block distance system of 3.5. You may want to compare calculated values and see if the above is accurate enough to warrant use.

If you need any help mediating the qualifier sharnian, feel free to ask. I've been observing the thread, and holy crap are you being burdened with a lot. While they've been doing a pretty good job helping you out (Claudius quite so thus far), I don't envy you. :smalltongue:

[Thelas]

Once my character gets approved, anyone up for an exhibition with a (probably) very-badly built generalist wizard?

[IthilanorStPete]

Once my character gets approved, anyone up for an exhibition with a (probably) very-badly built generalist wizard?

I would be, once my cleric gets approved.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Once my character gets approved, anyone up for an exhibition with a (probably) very-badly built generalist wizard?

My warmarked isn't approved yet either. Want do an exhibition just for fun?

[Thelas]

My warmarked isn't approved yet either. Want do an exhibition just for fun?

As in before they get approved? Sure, but I can't for a while, I still haven't decided on my spell preps for PvP. As soon as that's done, I'll give it a shot if you're willing.

(Spellbook's done, just not actual preps.)
Also, I am liable to die very fast. Just a warning.

EDIT: Spell preps done. If you want to run a pre-approval exhibition, will you please start the thread, as this is my first time?

[Olo Demonsbane]

I have a Cleric that would like to fight people. Anyone up for an exhibition? He's not checked yet because I havent finished items, but I would like to discover any glaring weaknesses before I submit him.

[Thelas]

Really, I'm up with a pre-approval exhibition with anyone who wants to, though I may die REALLY fast. (As I said, generalist wizard who isn't optimized enough.)

[Olo Demonsbane]

Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7057169#post7057169)

I am mostly defensive focused, so this should be interesting. Plus, I only have about 75% of my money spent...

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Link (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126655&page=5)

We need DM adjucation, it's been confusing

[PhoenixRivers]

So your issue is three-dimensional hypotenuses of triangles? That's actually not too bad.

Step 1. Calculate x axis difference.
Step 2. Calculate y axis difference.
Step 3. Calculate z axis difference.
Step 4. Square steps 1,2,3.
Step 5. Add the squared differences.
Step 6. Square root the sum of the squares.
Step 7. Round to nearest 5 foot increment.

Edit: Actually, I'm not quite sure how that compares with the block distance system of 3.5. You may want to compare calculated values and see if the above is accurate enough to warrant use.


While this is accurate IRL, it does not match up with 3.5 movement/distance rules.

[Claudius Maximus]

Follow it as close as you can. If I'm in A1, and my opponent's in D13, 20 feet up, count diagonals from A1 to D4 (4 diagonals, 30 feet). Then diagonals from D4 to D8(+20) (4 diagonals, 30 feet) Count the remaining in a straight line. (D8-D13 - 5 squares, 25 feet). Add it together. (85 feet)

Done. And yes, it's accurate. As long as a straight line is clear, this method will yield correct D&D distances.

Z axis is easiest to handle by flipping it sideways. Turn big problems to little problems, and it all works out.

This yields a distance greater than Sign's method. Are you sure this method is right? The distance from e.g. A1 to G10 +20 ft. would be 70 feet? What if you were to go up and horizontally diagonal at the same time? Like going from A1 to B2 +5 ft? Would it only cost 7.5 feet of movement? This would yield a distance of 60 ft. between the two points above.

[PhoenixRivers]

This yields a distance greater than Sign's method. Are you sure this method is right? The distance from e.g. A1 to G10 +20 ft. would be 70 feet? What if you were to go up and horizontally diagonal at the same time? Like going from A1 to B2 +5 ft? Would it only cost 7.5 feet of movement? This would yield a distance of 60 ft. between the two points above.

Actually, his method is reminiscent of the pythagorean theorem, but it's not.

Now, you can use Pythagorean Theorem to get it.

A1 to G10 (alt +20).

A-G = 30 feet
1-10 = 45 feet

A(sqr) + B(Sqr) = C(Sqr)
900 + 2025 = C(Sqr)
Sqrt(2925) = C
C = 59.083 (approx)

This is actual 2D distance. It's also the line of one of the parts of the triangle for the 3D (Straight line from A1-G10).

The second is easy. Vertical. 20.

A(sqr) + B(Sqr) = C(Sqr)
2925 + 400 = C(sqr)
(sqrt)3325 = C
C = 57.663 feet (approx)

That's your final 3D distance IRL.

DnD? My method yields a distance of 60 feet. Which is, RAW, the distance, even if IRL, it isn't.

(Final equation, simplified - this is combining the two formulas above into one):
sqrt(( horizontal(sqr) + vertical(sqr) ) + alt(sqr))

[ex cathedra]

My wizard, which I have chosen to be exhibition-only, was just approved, and I'm looking for challengers.

[PhoenixRivers]

My wizard, which I have chosen to be exhibition-only, was just approved, and I'm looking for challengers.

If you would like to face my warmarked, I'll go with him.

[ex cathedra]

Sure. I'll make the thread. Are you okay with the expanded arena map?

[PhoenixRivers]

Works for me. It's a better test than that 50 x 50 one.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Does Divine Defiance require 3 actual divine caster class levels? or can I just take practiced spellcaster and be done with it?

[ex cathedra]

Joining the Test of Spite chat would be helpful, if you could. Would you like a buff round + all days, or do you prefer something else?

[PhoenixRivers]

Joining the Test of Spite chat would be helpful, if you could. Would you like a buff round + all days, or do you prefer something else?

Unfortunately, my IRL location (place of employment) prevents access to ToS livechat.

If you would like buff rounds, I'm fine with that. No more than 3, however.

I do feel all-day buffs is a reasonable and fair minimum in any match.

[ex cathedra]

Excellent. Thread has started and is here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127309)

[PhoenixRivers]

I've made my initial post. :)

[ex cathedra]

Sorry for the delay, I had a short talk with Jake about Antimagic Fields. As my last post might have suggested.

[Doc Roc]

I will be largely inactive for the next seven days.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

And we shall notice no difference.

[Doc Roc]

I take that to be a testament to the excellent people we have who work very hard to keep this sucker going.

[PinkysBrain]

Why is circle magic not banned?

[PhoenixRivers]

Woo, my next caster is done!

If anyone fancies a match versus a character with a primary focus in divine spellcasting, I've got some time.

[Signmaker]

My latest characters have yet to make it through the sheetchecker gauntlet (clogged it is), so I'll have to take a raincheck on that.

[PhoenixRivers]

This one isn't in the gauntlet 'o checkers, either. It'd be unofficial.

[Signmaker]

This one isn't in the gauntlet 'o checkers, either. It'd be unofficial.

I would, but Tide specifically told me to get it checked. So... =P

[PhoenixRivers]

Bah.

And that is all I have to say to that.

[Signmaker]

Fine. Go ahead and start a thread then. =P

[PhoenixRivers]

The link's in the mail. Logging into ToS livechat, to see if it'll speed things up. :)

[Claudius Maximus]

I'll check your sheet right now, Sign. Which one is it?

Also, we just got like five new sheets in this week. I'll be surprised if I can handle two. I just can't keep the rate I had over the summer anymore. We really need some more sheet checkers. I've been the only one doing it for a while now, and I just can't keep up. Any volunteers?

[Doc Roc]

Split Psionic Ray has received a small errata.
No further characters using spelldancer should be made, as it will be almost certainly getting banned very soon.

[Claudius Maximus]

That's what aethernox was up to, wasn't it? I knew it.

Anyway, are touch spells valid for persist? I have seen it argued that they are variable range spells under the justification that their range varies by melee reach.

[ex cathedra]

It certainly is. It worked fairly well, additionally, or at least I think so.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Once again, does Divine Defiance require actual divine caster class levels or just taking Practiced Spellcaster would be okay?

[Claudius Maximus]

You need to have at least one real caster level in a divine casting class to have Divine Defiance. You need to have level in a class before you can apply Practiced Spellcaster to it.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

I wonder if there's anyway to get around that without taking a level in a divine class?

Perhaps UMDing divine casting, here's my reasoning:
Just UMD to get the feat and when time runs out, you lose access to the feat. Just UMD again to reaccess feat. Valid?

[Doc Roc]

It should actually say that touch isn't persistable, in the 3.51 fix list. If it doesn't, or it's not clear, let me know.

[PinkysBrain]

"# Feats, abilities, and other benefits granted by spells or items may not be used to fulfill any qualification requirement. This excludes Psychic Reformation and similar instantaneous effects."

[ex cathedra]

A feat != a device. Try again.

[Olo Demonsbane]

We still need a DM to look at the 2v2 and make a ruling:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7057482&posted=1#post7057482

[Thelas]

And after getting utterly humiliated (seriously. round 1 death.) by Olo, I'd like another [pre-approval] exhibition. After I make one little change to my magic items that is completely unrelated to the match. (As in, seriously, it was suggested in the ToS chat before we even started.)

[ex cathedra]

Thelas, relax. A one-round kill isn't uncommon, much less humiliating, especially on certain smaller maps.

You can alter your character and re-use/re-submit it if you would like at any time.

[Mushroom Ninja]

And after getting utterly humiliated (seriously. round 1 death.) by Olo, I'd like another [pre-approval] exhibition. After I make one little change to my magic items that is completely unrelated to the match. (As in, seriously, it was suggested in the ToS chat before we even started.)

Once you've made the change, I'd enjoy trying my warmarked playtest against your character.

[Doc Roc]

Upon reflection, prestige paladin and prestige bard are no longer allowed.

Spelldancer joins it on the ban list. Spelldancers may finish any in progress fights, and should then be submitted for storage and vivisection via the front page link.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Most of the time I fight in one rounders...ask Sharnian...I still havent figured out what his SaBer can do, because I keep killing him/killing myself in one round :smallsmile:

And this is one of my most powerful characters. Not including my minionmancers or ones that rely on now banned things.

EDIT: And this one hits the books...or do I get grandfathered in, like I did with Lightning Mace?

[Thelas]

Once you've made the change, I'd enjoy trying my warmarked playtest against your character.

Change has been made. Whenever you'd like.
Though see the note to Olo. (The one about incompetent optimizing.)

[IthilanorStPete]

Due to the backlog in getting sheets approved: anyone up for an exhibition match against an unapproved character?

[Mushroom Ninja]

Change has been made. Whenever you'd like.
Though see the note to Olo. (The one about incompetent optimizing.)

Alright, it's up (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7063824#post7063824).

[Mushroom Ninja]

Due to the backlog in getting sheets approved: anyone up for an exhibition match against an unapproved character?

Sure, I've got an unapproved Warmarked Playtest that I've been running through several exhibitions. Do you want to start the thread?

[Doc Roc]

Aptitude Weapons are now banned.

[IthilanorStPete]

Mushroom Ninja: Sure. Thread's up here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127413).

[9mm]

Aptitude Weapons are now banned.

... Slade is off the list; AGAIN.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Since Lightning Maces is now banned, that is much less harmful than it previously was...

[Olo Demonsbane]

Upon reflection, prestige paladin and prestige bard are no longer allowed.

Spelldancer joins it on the ban list. Spelldancers may finish any in progress fights, and should then be submitted for storage and vivisection via the front page link.

You probably should ban prestige ranger as well...I have a couple of plans that involve them...one of which involves Druid and Wizard spells of 9th level.

[Doc Roc]

You probably should ban prestige ranger as well...I have a couple of plans that involve them...one of which involves Druid and Wizard spells of 9th level.

We use an allow list system for ToS when it comes to UA. Ranger has never been on it.

[Olo Demonsbane]

...Oh.

Nevermind me here...

If a dragon gains HD, does it improve as if it advanced age categories? (Weird sentace structure, but you can probably figure out what I mean...)

[Doc Roc]

Tell me why you're asking?

[Olo Demonsbane]

Not the Supermount lite build that I was asking about before, no worries :smallsmile:

I have a character with a Dragon Familiar that gains some other benifets. Namely, HD. I want to know if my familiar gets more Strength, Con, the works.

[Claudius Maximus]

A Dragon's Age Category is a function of its age. If it really gets actual HD, it advances as normal for its creature type. This may result in it having as much HD as an older dragon, but it normally does not make it an older dragon.

[Olo Demonsbane]

A Dragon's Age Category is a function of its age. If it really gets actual HD, it advances as normal for its creature type. This may result in it having as much HD as an older dragon, but it normally does not make it an older dragon.

I would normally agree with you, but Dragons actually gain additional stuff for having more HD...look at the Advanced Dragons from ELH and Draconocmicon...it also says that you can apply this progression to younger dragons...

[Doc Roc]

Ugh.... I know where this goes.

[sofawall]

Then your response should be simple.

[Olo Demonsbane]

...In that case, I have an Archivist build that Ive been itching to try...

[PhoenixRivers]

Archivists are fun. I was debating making another.

[Doc Roc]

Speaking of archivists, is everyone satisfied with the allowed spell lists for them?

[IthilanorStPete]

Could you say in the OP whether or not Divine Bard stuff is allowed, or is it a case-by-case decision?

[Doc Roc]

As it stands, it is currently disallowed for Archivist spell selection, as it's basically a huge source of problems.

[IthilanorStPete]

I meant, is it allowed as a way for Archivists to get spells?

[Doc Roc]

No, as I had always meant to ban it, and just forgot. It's now explicit.

[Claudius Maximus]

Woah, this is new to me. I need to do some significant changes to my Archivist now.

Doc Roc:
So is membership in the Zhentarim kosher? If so, what kind of spells can it get my Archivist? The RAW on the matter puts no limitations on class lists, so I could even get Wizard scrolls (though they would be useless to me). Are you going to impose any restrictions, other than the preexisting Archivist spell choices?

Previously, you gave me permission to use certain Divine Bard spells, including Celerity and Infernal Threnody. Have you taken back this permission with this recent ruling?

Another thing: Can I get some small animals or something for my Archivist? Right now I'm using a freaking Soulspark Familiar for fuel, and I'd prefer something that doesn't cost me a feat. I've seen others use animals for Consumptive Field, but I was never clear on whether that was actually legal.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Finnaly got Jaya back on her feet in the Monkening...lets see what revenge the evoker has prepared :smallbiggrin:

On the other hand, Im hiding in a box :smalltongue:

[Mushroom Ninja]

Ithilanor and I have finished our exhibition. If anyone's interested in reading it, here it is. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127413)

[Doc Roc]

Woah, this is new to me. I need to do some significant changes to my Archivist now.

Doc Roc:
So is membership in the Zhentarim kosher? If so, what kind of spells can it get my Archivist? The RAW on the matter puts no limitations on class lists, so I could even get Wizard scrolls (though they would be useless to me). Are you going to impose any restrictions, other than the preexisting Archivist spell choices?

Previously, you gave me permission to use certain Divine Bard spells, including Celerity and Infernal Threnody. Have you taken back this permission with this recent ruling?

Another thing: Can I get some small animals or something for my Archivist? Right now I'm using a freaking Soulspark Familiar for fuel, and I'd prefer something that doesn't cost me a feat. I've seen others use animals for Consumptive Field, but I was never clear on whether that was actually legal.

CM:

I'd like to talk this over in real time. Can it wait until tomorrow?

[Claudius Maximus]

CM:

I'd like to talk this over in real time. Can it wait until tomorrow?

Doc Roc:
Sure, but I don't think I will be available until about 6:00-6:30 pm server time. Are we to converse via the ToS chat, or some other medium?

[Doc Roc]

Doc Roc:
Sure, but I don't think I will be available until about 6:00-6:30 pm server time. Are we to converse via the ToS chat, or some other medium?

whatever's convenient. all my info is readily available.

[9mm]

Slade is legal... AGAIN.

[Claudius Maximus]

So, Doc Roc or sofawall, do either of you want to check out the situation in this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126655&page=5) thread? I'm trying to redo an action, and a neutral DM's opinion on the matter would be appreciated.

[PhoenixRivers]

We've got a rewind on that match above, to post 90. Could we get a ref of sorts to step in and make an LOS check in the match linked above?

[Doc Roc]

In the next four days, I will be setting up a new chat service, due to deficiencies in meebo.

Thoughts on tomb-tainted soul with respect to negative levels from enervation?

[Signmaker]

In the next four days, I will be setting up a new chat service, due to deficiencies in meebo.

Thoughts on tomb-tainted soul with respect to negative levels from enervation?

I thought increasing your ECL through any artificial means was considered a "No. Just no." I would assume this would apply to somehow gaining positive levels through enervation (if that's what you're referring to. If it's just a healing effect or a minor buffing of some sort like changing all the minuses of negative levels to plusses, that might be a different story).

Lord knows I've tried with my wight/vampirization items.

Edit: Note to self: read spell description to understand relevant discussion. Silly me.

[Cieyrin]

Thoughts on tomb-tainted soul with respect to negative levels from enervation?

I don't think they'd get any special defense for having it, as the feat says you get no other penalties or bonuses of the undead type, which would include immunity to energy drain effects.

As for treating it as being healed by negative energy, as there isn't a definition for positive levels, I don't think they'd be getting power boosts that way.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I don't think they'd get any special defense for having it, as the feat says you get no other penalties or bonuses of the undead type, which would include immunity to energy drain effects.

As for treating it as being healed by negative energy, as there isn't a definition for positive levels, I don't think they'd be getting power boosts that way.

They don't get positive levels from Enervation. According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm) they gain temp hp

[Cieyrin]

They don't get positive levels from Enervation. According to the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/enervation.htm) they gain temp hp

I didn't say they get positive levels, either. All Tomb-Tainted Soul lets you do is to be healed by negative energy and you get no other Undead benefits. Your type is still whatever type you have, so I don't think you'd gain temporary hit points from it, I think you get energy drained like any other living creature.

[PhoenixRivers]

I didn't say they get positive levels, either. All Tomb-Tainted Soul lets you do is to be healed by negative energy and you get no other Undead benefits. Your type is still whatever type you have, so I don't think you'd gain temporary hit points from it, I think you get energy drained like any other living creature.

Agreed. The standard baseline is that effects do what they say. No more, no less.

If something says you're harmed by positive energy and healed by negative energy? Great. If you take positive energy, you get injured. If you take negative energy, you get healed.

Any side effects or riders, beyond simple damage, happen as normal. This includes negative levels, status effects, temp hp, etc.

[ex cathedra]

Tomb-Tainted Soul states that
you are healed by negative energy ... as if you were undead.

Enervation is a "Ray of negative energy" effect that explicitly states
An undead creature struck by the ray gains 1d4x5 temporary hit points for one hour.

As such, I disagree with PR and Cieyrin.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

DMs
Does the caster level check to break mind blank also apply to psionic mindblank?

[PhoenixRivers]

Tomb-Tainted Soul states that

Enervation is a "Ray of negative energy" effect that explicitly states

As such, I disagree with PR and Cieyrin.

Temporary HP is not healing.

The Vigor power does not heal.

Healing is restoration of standard HP, no more, no less.

To illustrate, compare the following:
Cure Minor Wounds (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cureMinorWounds.htm) and Virtue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/virtue.htm).

Both are level 1 spells. One heals, one provides temporary HP.

The one that heals is Conjuration (Healing).
The one that adds temporary HP is Transmutation.

[Claudius Maximus]

Sharnian:
Yes, as it is derivative of Mind Blank.

[Doc Roc]

In this case, I back PR's reading. It's clear that the RAI of Tomb-tainted soul could very reasonably include this interpretation, but the RAW does not. Further, I would prefer we not make tomb-tainted soul effectively into an essential feat for most contestants, though that does present a really vivid and interesting motif.

[Doc Roc]

Divine bard has moved back onto the list of Archivist castables, in the approval only section.
Celerity's daze can no longer be obviated.
Iron Heart Surge is banned pending a re-write.
Psionic Lion's Charge now has a duration of one round as intended, instead of the ridiculously stupid instantaneous it currently possesses.
Limits on affiliations and group membership now exist.


Do you guys feel the fix-list is too extensive?

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Tide/DocRoc/DMs

Need information on Mindblank fix, like how to handle the Caster Level check, is it opposed? Or is the DC equal to the caster's CL? What are the relevant penalties as referenced on the front page

[Doc Roc]

The consensus of the community is that we should freeze the banlist for the time being. Until the 25th, there will be no more bans excluding requested bans and run-time bans, which I plan to keep rare.

[Olo Demonsbane]

*Goes off to unleash my actually powerfull stuff*

Jk, Jk.

[9mm]

John B. Quick is know legal again after months of procrastination.

[Doc Roc]

He should remain legal for quite a while, I hope. :)

[Cieyrin]

Further, I would prefer we not make tomb-tainted soul effectively into an essential feat for most contestants, though that does present a really vivid and interesting motif.

Would be very Ravenlofty, that.

[PhoenixRivers]

My clerics would all memorize Heal for very different reasons.

[sofawall]

The one that heals is Conjuration (Healing).
The one that adds temporary HP is Transmutation.

Hee hee. You just tried to use healing and temp hp being in different schools as proof.

We all know schools make no sense, and are largely strange in their uses.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Is Hidecarved Dragon legal? Not that I'd use it (seems pretty weak for a supposed Dragon Class), but do items count for its Natural Armor requirement?

[Claudius Maximus]

I don't think so, because of this general rule:

Feats, abilities, and other benefits granted by spells or items may not be used to fulfill any qualification requirement. This excludes Psychic Reformation and similar instantaneous effects.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Also, is Deathless a template that I can apply to a race?

[Doc Roc]

Does it have a listed LA?

[Cieyrin]

Also, is Deathless a template that I can apply to a race?

Deathless are a type. You'd have to be a critter with the type to get the type, unless there's some template in Eberron somewhere that grants it.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Oh, ok didn't read it right, crushes my hopes of being a better sorcerer

[sofawall]

What does Deathless do?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

What does Deathless do?

Basically Undead without all the negative problems associated with Undead (i.e. not able to be turned, not able to be harmed by positive energy effects)

[T.G. Oskar]

What does Deathless do?

Basically Undead without all the negative problems associated with Undead (i.e. not able to be turned, not able to be harmed by positive energy effects)

Technically, it's a "reverse Undead". As Shneekey said, it gets healed by positive energy and harmed by negative energy as usual.

Turning and rebuking act differently. Good clerics (and neutral clerics that choose Turn Undead) rebuke, control or bolster Deathless while Evil clerics (and neutral clerics that choose Rebuke Undead) turn or destroy them.

Spells such as Consecrate and Hallow act as if Desecrate and Unhallow. In terms of Consecrate, this means -3 to rebuke undead/turn deathless, +1 sacred bonus on attack & damage rolls and saving throws, and +1 HP per HD to summoned Deathless (which is odd to mention nonetheless), with double bonus if area is dedicated to a good deity. Hallow grants -4 on rebuke undead checks (hence, -4 to turn deathless) and +4 to turn undead (hence, +4 to rebuke deathless)

Spells such as Hide from Undead and Undeath to Death still affect deathless as they would undead. Spells such as Disrupt Undead heal the deathless, are detected by Detect Undead and Detect Good spells (and identified as deathless, actually), and spells such as Chill Touch, Magic Stone, Searing Light, Sunbeam, Sunburst and Wall of Fire don't affect deathless as they affect undead. They can't be resurrected unless using Reincarnate or True Resurrection.

Finally, they can't be constructed by normal means. Only the Create Deathless spells from Eberron are known to create Deathless.

Just in case, this is from the BoED, where deathless appear first. The base deathless templates appear here, and act much like good skeletons/zombies (Crypt Warden) or ghosts (Sacred Watcher) in regard.

You *can* be a Sacred Watcher, but it's a +5 LA template and pretty much equal to a ghost in regard. The other choice is to be an Aereni elf from the Undying Court, and a few of those are actually reaching epic levels so it's a massive no. Lowest is an Undying Soldier and those have no Level Adjustment and 4 HD.

P.S.: I apparently seem to have a slight conflict between deity and race, given that I wish to make a test character with some particularly strong flavor. Without more information than the following:

--Cleric; must be chaotic or evil.
--Draconic deity
--Race apparently does not allow any form of neutral.

What do you suggest? Keep the race and change the deity or keep the deity and change the race?

Mostly Doc "Tide" Roc and sheet checkers:
Since it's a work for a ToS character, I have to place this on spoilers.

Essentially, the original idea was to get Cloistered Cleric, Dragonfire Adept and then enter Eldritch Disciple as it doesn't require Eldritch Blast dice and DFA is basically a Invocation-using class so it's more than legal (except not exactly eldritch).

Thing is, I originally had gone with Aasterinian, a CN deity. When I looked for decent races, I decided to add some Incarnum to the mix and went for Azurin. However, Azurins tend to have this slight problem of being extremists, and apparently always choose extreme alignments and extreme-aligned deities, which would mean one of two: either choose CG and go with Hlal, or CE and go with Garyx to keep the flavor going (dragon deity grants divine spells and draconic invocations to an azurin.

So...should I keep being an Azurin and change my deity and alignment (and possibly ditch a feat? Or should I change my race and keep Aasterinian (which means also getting the Initiate feat for her)

Just in case, I get into Dragonfire Adept first for Dragontouched and Breath feats, 2nd level for Breath effect and scales, and then levels of Cloistered Cleric while taking the first level of Dragonblooded Cleric for Turn Energy (which works exactly as Turn Undead for purposes of qualifying for prestige classes, so Eldritch Disciple isn't affected) Since I'm planning only for 4 levels of Cloistered Cleric, that means I can't get the Initiate feats for either Garyx or Hlal, and at least in Hlal's case it's a lost cause even if I had it.

[sofawall]

Can you be an Undying Necropolitan? Do any requirements for Necropolitan fail to be met by Undying?

[ex cathedra]

That's certainly an interesting idea...

Also, sofa, sorry. Connection issues, but it was getting late anyways. Perhaps we could continue some other time.

[Claudius Maximus]

Oskar: Clerics are not alignment locked in the Test of Spite.

[Cieyrin]

Can you be an Undying Necropolitan? Do any requirements for Necropolitan fail to be met by Undying?

The thing with that is, as Oskar pointed out, the only way to become Deathless other than being a creature with the type is to be a Sacred Watcher, which can't be applied to Undead like a Necropolitan. The same occurs if you start as a Sacred Watcher, which isn't a viable type choice to gain Necropolitan status.

While it would certainly be interesting to be a Deathless Necropolitan, that'd fall distinctly in the arena of homebrew in making such a template, so that instead of becoming Undead, you'd become Deathless.

[Doc Roc]

I think I'd be hard-pressed to become a deathless. At least in any remotely reasonable way.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Rules question:

If you purchase a weapon of spell storing, could you also purchase the spell to store in it, using the cost tables in the DMG for Spellcasting Services? I'm having an idea about how to get Takahashi able to make his targets truly Helpless so CDG's can make endings quicker...

[PhoenixRivers]

I can't see why not, though I'm sure you'd probably wanna run the specifics by Doc Roc, much like he does for the Extra Spell feat.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Say, Shneeky, do you have any IM contact info?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Say, Shneeky, do you have any IM contact info?

I don't normally give that information out on public forums, but check your PM's.

[Claudius Maximus]

Rules question:

If you purchase a weapon of spell storing, could you also purchase the spell to store in it, using the cost tables in the DMG for Spellcasting Services? I'm having an idea about how to get Takahashi able to make his targets truly Helpless so CDG's can make endings quicker...

I don't see why you couldn't, and I don't have a problem with this. Of course I can be overruled, though.

[sofawall]

I also see nothing wrong with it, considering we already banned a couple trouble spells when people were getting scrolls of them.

[T.G. Oskar]

Sorry if I couldn't answer earlier: not going for particulars but let's say I was sleepless and with little food for a long time. Let's get this straight...


Oskar: Clerics are not alignment locked in the Test of Spite.

Problem is, this isn't a problem with the cleric (as in, I can't do it because I'm of a diametrically opposite alignment than the deity's), but mostly a rules problem within the race and PrC itself. Lemme go a bit more deeper:

Thing is, Azurins are the ones causing the problem. Since Azurins only allow the extreme alignments (LG, CG, LE, CE), and given the restrictions (Eldritch Disciple means I must have a chaotic OR evil deity), it means I can only be Chaotic Good, Chaotic Evil, or Lawful Evil. Normally, unless it's obligatory to have an evil alignment, I tend not to be evil (roleplaying issues), so playing any evil is usually out of the equation.

Problem is the religion section of the Azurin race:

Azurins worship deities that embody their alignments. Numerous azurins choose careers as priests or
paladins, using their profession as a platform for espousing their extremist viewpoints. They can also choose more secular philosophies instead of religious dogma, but underlying either belief is the fundamental certitude of law versus chaos and good versus evil.

The trouble lies in that the cleric restriction is a racial restriction instead of a class restriction: i.e., Azurins wouldn't on their sane mind worship Aasterinian, either CG Azurins would worship Hlal or CE Azurins would worship Garyx (and LE Azurins would naturally worship Tiamat) The wording, however, is pretty lax in whether its an always restriction (which RAI would support) or if it's a usually restriction (which would play oddly considering the wording of the Azurin cleric substitution level)

So, what would be the choice:
A) Keep deity (Aasterinian), change race (Azurin to X)?
B) Keep race (Azurin), change deity (Aaasterinian to Hlal, Garyx or Tiamat), change alignment proper (to CG, CE or LE)?
C) Keep both deity and race, change alignment to CN, play with Azurin cleric suggestion? (Currently going with this one)

I know it sounds silly since it's more of a roleplaying restriction than a purely mechanical one, but it's still good to clear that out.

[Zaq]

T.G., I've always interpreted the "Azurins are never Neutral" line as "Azurins are never True Neutral." Remember that "True Neutral" is not a term that the books actually use. They just call it "Neutral."

Don't forget that "always X" alignments are never set in stone, unless you're an outsider with the alignment subtype (and even then you'll get people willing to argue the point).

Also, we all know that example characters are nothing more than inside jokes on WotC's part, but the example Sapphire Hierarch is an LN azurin.

[T.G. Oskar]

T.G., I've always interpreted the "Azurins are never Neutral" line as "Azurins are never True Neutral." Remember that "True Neutral" is not a term that the books actually use. They just call it "Neutral."

Don't forget that "always X" alignments are never set in stone, unless you're an outsider with the alignment subtype (and even then you'll get people willing to argue the point).

Also, we all know that example characters are nothing more than inside jokes on WotC's part, but the example Sapphire Hierarch is an LN azurin.

That would be quite reasonable, were it not because of the slight insistence on mentioning "extreme alignments". Usually, that's shorthand for the group that's farthest from (True) Neutral, such as LG, CG, LE and CE. I had the same notion at first, but later reading inclined my position towards "Azurins are never Neutral, only extreme alignments".

As for the always X, consider that it requires some degree of justification to explain why your character is the dissonant one, aside from "s/he is an adventurer" (and I've seen at times that justification is considered as sufficient).

And in the case of the example characters (which seem to be made by people that have an agenda of creating unreasonable characters, more than inside jokes), I found there's a slightly more solid suggestion for clerics breaking the mold of general Azurins. The Azurin cleric racial substitution level has a slight and almost insignificant line, which isn't fixed on any errata since the MoI errata doesn't exist at all: "A Neutral Azurin gains no benefit from [the Soulbound Weapon] class feature".

Thing is, since I've done some sheet revision before and usually tend to be a tad strict with the rules and the revision of math, I expect to clear any odd rulings before presenting the character, so as to aid the sheet-checker on his/her revision and clear it faster. Since the Azurin restriction is roughly implicit rather than explicit, it becomes much more difficult to interpret the way it was both written and intended; hence, why I present the dilemma and request a ruling towards it (favorable or not), as well as recommendations since the small community we've formed tends to help each other as much as possible.

[Claudius Maximus]

I'd allow you to be a neutral Azurin. The sub level text implies that it's possible, if rare.

I have some questions for the good doctor:

Are all effects that grant immunity to mind-affecting effects subject to a CL check, or is it just Mind Blank and its derivatives?

What happens if I have multiple (different) effects that halve the damage I take? Do they stack?

Doc Roc only:
These questions mostly hinge on the spell Empyreal Ecstasy, which I'm trying to get on my Archivist. Since it's a Bard spell, I need approval. May I have it?

Even if I can't get it, those questions up there should probably get rulings.

[ex cathedra]

I have a wizard awaiting an exhibition match, for anyone interested.

[IthilanorStPete]

I'd be up for that.

[ex cathedra]

Excellent, make a thread. Map and buff rounds to your liking.

[IthilanorStPete]

Thread: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7102788#post7102788

[Doc Roc]

I'd allow you to be a neutral Azurin. The sub level text implies that it's possible, if rare.

I have some questions for the good doctor:

Are all effects that grant immunity to mind-affecting effects subject to a CL check, or is it just Mind Blank and its derivatives?

What happens if I have multiple (different) effects that halve the damage I take? Do they stack?

Doc Roc only:
These questions mostly hinge on the spell Empyreal Ecstasy, which I'm trying to get on my Archivist. Since it's a Bard spell, I need approval. May I have it?

Even if I can't get it, those questions up there should probably get rulings.

Page cite?

[Claudius Maximus]

For the Azurin thing, it's on page 43 of MoI.

As for the spoiler:
Page 98 of BoED.

[Doc Roc]

Consider the Azurin fluff stripped. Play him however you want.

[T.G. Oskar]

Consider the Azurin fluff stripped. Play him however you want.

Thank ye kindly, mate.

Now, for other pretty interesting stuff (which has to be spoilered for the protection of my character)...

Doc Roc and DMs:
How does the following things interact with each other?
Given that Eldritch Disciple only requires least invocations, which Dragonfire Adept provides, it would be reasonable to consider that the levels in an Invocation class as presented affect both the acquired invocations and the power and save DC of the breath weapon. However: (a) does it also allow to get new breath effects? (b) Do breath effects qualify as "eldritch essence invocations" for purposes of Eldritch Spellweave? (CM 53 and 54)
I'm using the Dragonblood Cleric racial substitution level, thanks to the bonus feat of Dragontouched granted by the Dragonfire Adept. The level I'm replacing is first, which replaces Turn Undead with Turn Energy (essentially a slow-scaling limited Protection from Energy). The page specifies it qualifies for feats, prestige classes and such that require Turn Undead uses. Does this mean that classes that increase your effective cleric level for TU also increase Turn Energy? (RotD 106)
The following Gifts of the Divine Patron make reference to Eldritch Blasts: Corrupting Blast, Wild Frenzy. Given that the EB equivalent for the Dragonfire Adept is the Breath Weapon, does that mean said gifts apply as spoken to the breath weapon? (CM 53 and 54)

[Claudius Maximus]

After weeks in the shop, my Archivist is ready for exhibitions again. Any takers?

As an aside, I won't be as active as normal this week, as midterms are rolling around. Sheet reviews from me will drop from "infrequent" to "none". I'd like to once again stress our need for more sheet checkers.

[ex cathedra]

CM, I have a wizard ready for exhibitions. Would you like to try your hand against him?

[Claudius Maximus]

Sure, but remember I won't be posting as often as I'd like. Including almost all today, unfortunately. Make a thread, and I'll post in it when I can.

Doc Roc:
So how 'bout Empyreal Ecstasy? And concerning the half damage thing, one of the effects is EE, which halves damage from numbness or something, and the other is a redirect like Shield Other. Would those stack?

[ex cathedra]

Take your time, it's fine. Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128140).

[Doc Roc]

unfortunately, I'm AFB for a bit.

[Cieyrin]

I think I'd be hard-pressed to become a deathless. At least in any remotely reasonable way.

Upon further research, there is a quicker and LA-less method into becoming Deathless, though that's through Risen Martyr, which has some major restrictions of its own (namely, you can only advance as a Risen Martyr from then on). The class isn't all that great, either, as it essentially just gives you more Deathless features, and is also a bit bizarre, as it's the only prestige class I've ever seen that has a 0th level, which may need to be looked at.

I'd have posted earlier about it but the one-two punch of internet troubles and RL issues out to get me postponed it. On that note, I'll be online less for the time being, especially in the evening.

EDIT: Okay, so my internets are back on again. Way to go, Internets!:smallbiggrin:

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Anyone here up for a qualifier against my skillmonkey?

Also, I don't mean to rush, but it's your turn Olo.

[IthilanorStPete]

Question: can I use the Divine Magician ACF from Complete Mage to replace the Knowledge domain a Cloistered Cleric gets?

[PhoenixRivers]

I don't believe so. I believe Divine Magician goes off the standard 2 Domains a cleric gets. Cloistered Cleric's Knowledge Domain isn't one of those. You could, I believe, exchange Knowledge domain for the Knowledge Devotion feat, if you had 1 other Devotion feat.

[IthilanorStPete]

Question answered by Tide in the chat.

[PhoenixRivers]

I can see it both ways though. We do use CLoistered as a 'base' cleric class. By that, it may be solid enough to swap.

[IthilanorStPete]

Anyone up for an exhibition against my (not checked yet) Cleric mk. 2?

Note to self: Remember the items I have this time.

[PhoenixRivers]

I'll have a go, if you like. Would you prefer my Warmarked, or a caster based challenge?

[IthilanorStPete]

Let's go with Warmarked.

[PhoenixRivers]

Fair enough. Make a thread, and I'll scrounge up my Warmarked.

On a side note: I'm working on a new warmarked. I intend to have some fun with some unusual abilities.

[IthilanorStPete]

Thread here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128237).

[PhoenixRivers]

In the thread. :)

[lvl 1 sharnian]

DocRoc
Can I use the Smoke Poisons from Serpent Kingdoms?

[Doc Roc]

DocRoc
Can I use the Smoke Poisons from Serpent Kingdoms?

No, sorry.

[Doc Roc]

Can I get some thoughts and retrospectives on war-marked so far?

[PhoenixRivers]

It's solid. The Marks are supposed to be similar in power level to casting.

As I expressed with you earlier, I feel that a mark that provides Spell Resistance (tied to level, I'd say) would be appropriate. It would likely belong in the Magical Beast / Aberration mark area. I wouldn't put it all the way into Outsider marks, though. As it stands, a magical beast/aberration mark is a significant resource. Limiting it to Outsider means that you choose between SR and anything else.

Casters can get a solid SR with a 4th level spell, at level 7. I think access at level 9 is not too out of line.

[Mushroom Ninja]

War-marked is a lot of fun. There is a huge range of options in character creation, even straight classed, because of the choice in marks. The marks themselves are powerful, but not gamebreaking and allow War-marked to be competitive against some casters. Although the build I've been using (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=154354) is far from the most powerful, it is still very fun and provides a reasonable challenge for most opponents.

Some of the marks could use a little clarification in the wording. For instance, Mark of the Baatezu says "Iron weapons you wield gain the wounding property while you wield them". It is unclear whether this applies to ammunition, and what exactly qualifies as an "iron" weapon (ie: does cold Iron count?). Also, as was brought up in meebo last night, Mark of the Blink Dog's name ability doesn't specify whether the ability is a spell, Spell-like Ability, Supernatural ability, etc.

All in all, War-marked is a very enjoyable class. I look forward to seeing what is done with this class.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Rules Question:

Do things like the penalties from Nets stack? Specifically, if I throw two nets at my target, does he get a -8 to Dex? I'm trying to find a quick, cheap, and easy way to make opponents Helpless...

Also, considering making up a Warmarked as a Lockdown/Battlefield Control specialist, focusing on Mark of the Chain and Mark of the Lash, and Mark of Valor for extra damage output...

[Cieyrin]

Rules Question:

Do things like the penalties from Nets stack? Specifically, if I throw two nets at my target, does he get a -8 to Dex? I'm trying to find a quick, cheap, and easy way to make opponents Helpless...

Also, considering making up a Warmarked as a Lockdown/Battlefield Control specialist, focusing on Mark of the Chain and Mark of the Lash, and Mark of Valor for extra damage output...

I don't think nets would stack, as you can only be so entangled. Getting out of multiple nets would be their own checks, though, so there's still reason to throw multiple nets.

If you used multiple weapons that put out those sorts of effects, I could see synergy, like if you bola'd someone, followed by a net and finally a lasso. They're all discreet effects and do separate things that can effectively disable someone fairly quickly.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I don't think nets would stack, as you can only be so entangled. Getting out of multiple nets would be their own checks, though, so there's still reason to throw multiple nets.

If you used multiple weapons that put out those sorts of effects, I could see synergy, like if you bola'd someone, followed by a net and finally a lasso. They're all discreet effects and do separate things that can effectively disable someone fairly quickly.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

I'd really prefer to have an official GM make a ruling, but thanks for your opinion. That's really why I am asking, because it is not explicitly stated you can't do it multiple times. Neither is it explicitly prohibited, either.

[Cieyrin]

I'd really prefer to have an official GM make a ruling, but thanks for your opinion. That's really why I am asking, because it is not explicitly stated you can't do it multiple times. Neither is it explicitly prohibited, either.

Fair enough.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

DocRoc
Do the dragon archetypes from Dragons of Ebberon add Cleric spells to the sorceror's spells known or just the ability to choose from them? When it says you may cast Cleric Spells as Arcane Spells?

Can I trade out the 1st Favored Enemy from Stalking Wyrm for Favored Enemy Arcanists?

Can I use the Manuever granting Wyrm of War? What is it's going off of for readying and such?

[PhoenixRivers]

If a net merely provides a status effect, then no, they would not. There are no rules for being doubly entangled.

Otherwise, it may run afoul of "multiple modifiers from the same source don't stack".

[Doc Roc]

DocRoc
Do the dragon archetypes from Dragons of Ebberon add Cleric spells to the sorceror's spells known or just the ability to choose from them? When it says you may cast Cleric Spells as Arcane Spells?

Can I trade out the 1st Favored Enemy from Stalking Wyrm for Favored Enemy Arcanists?

Can I use the Manuever granting Wyrm of War? What is it's going off of for readying and such?

I need to see the character sketch before we can discuss this.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If a net merely provides a status effect, then no, they would not. There are no rules for being doubly entangled.

Otherwise, it may run afoul of "multiple modifiers from the same source don't stack".

So what about a Net plus a Lasso plus a Barbed Net (different type of item)?

[lvl 1 sharnian]

I need to see the character sketch before we can discuss this.

Well for any of these to work, I would have to be a dragonwrought kobold:

First one:
Add to Spell Known version:

I would be one of the most versatile sorcerors ever, it would allow me to pick some more limited use spells for the sorcerer side, knowing that I wouldn't be sacrificing too much versatility.

Add to Spell List version:

Not as powerful, but would be able to pick up useful spells such as divine power and such.

2:

Probably more as a gish character that'll be able to take down casters a little bit better, with levels of eldritch knight or maybe go swiftblade

3:
Probably for entry into Jade Phoenix Mage without losing a caster level and I was hoping for swordsage progression and recovery, although I would only get Tiger Claw stuff.
Note however, that it still probably won't grant full Initiator levels e.g. Sorc 8 is still IL4, not IL8

Edit:
A few more bugging questions:

Can we still use dungeoncrasher fighter?
Does Swordsage share in the Full BAB that the old monk had?

[Claudius Maximus]

Sharnian, may I look into your spoiler, is it for Doc Roc only?

People should generally differentiate between spoilers for Doc Roc and spoilers for DMs, which can also be opened by sofawall and myself.

Anyway, if you're talking about Rainbow Servant, it definitely only adds to your list, not your spells known. This is why there are Beguiler and Warmage Rainbow Servants.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Go ahead, I wasn't sure whether it would DocRoc only as it's mainly an allowable question.

The questions are referring to the Sovereign Dragon archetypes.

Specifically how most of them allow you to cast cleric spells as arcane spells.

[Claudius Maximus]

I actually don't have Dragons of Ebberon, so I can't help you with your questions without seeing the text of the ability.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Claudius

Shh... don't tell

A passion's flame can cast cleric spells and spells from the Madness and Passion domains as arcane spells

[Claudius Maximus]

Sharnian:
That would not give you the spells as known spells. It's essentially the same ability that certain breeds of dragons get. They still need to learn these spells like any other. I believe there are references in Draconomicon to dragons opting to learn Heal, suggesting that they need to learn these spells.

Here's an example of the dragon ability, for reference:

[A Red Dragon] can also cast cleric spells and those from the Chaos, Evil, and Fire domains as arcane spells.
You can see how similar they are.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Hmm, so it's best would probably be early entry into geomancer?

Any idea about the other two ideas?

[Amphetryon]

Doc Roc:
I'm requesting access to the Spell-touched feat Stench of the Dead, from UA.

[Doc Roc]

Doc Roc:
I'm requesting access to the Spell-touched feat Stench of the Dead, from UA.

Approved for hilarity.

[sofawall]

Approved for hilarity.

This method of choosing has lead to a few scary builds.

Including The Borg Cube, the least interesting build to fight!

[T.G. Oskar]

Reposting because of being swallowed by the pages without an apparent answer:


Doc Roc and DMs:
How does the following things interact with each other?
Given that Eldritch Disciple only requires least invocations, which Dragonfire Adept provides, it would be reasonable to consider that the levels in an Invocation class as presented affect both the acquired invocations and the power and save DC of the breath weapon. However: (a) does it also allow to get new breath effects? (b) Do breath effects qualify as "eldritch essence invocations" for purposes of Eldritch Spellweave? (CM 53 and 54)
I'm using the Dragonblood Cleric racial substitution level, thanks to the bonus feat of Dragontouched granted by the Dragonfire Adept. The level I'm replacing is first, which replaces Turn Undead with Turn Energy (essentially a slow-scaling limited Protection from Energy). The page specifies it qualifies for feats, prestige classes and such that require Turn Undead uses. Does this mean that classes that increase your effective cleric level for TU also increase Turn Energy? (RotD 106)
The following Gifts of the Divine Patron make reference to Eldritch Blasts: Corrupting Blast, Wild Frenzy. Given that the EB equivalent for the Dragonfire Adept is the Breath Weapon, does that mean said gifts apply as spoken to the breath weapon? (CM 53 and 54)

Also...how's things at the chat? It's been a while since I have visited...

[IthilanorStPete]

It's been pretty busy this week, actually.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Well for any of these to work, I would have to be a dragonwrought kobold:

First one:
Add to Spell Known version:

I would be one of the most versatile sorcerors ever, it would allow me to pick some more limited use spells for the sorcerer side, knowing that I wouldn't be sacrificing too much versatility.

Add to Spell List version:

Not as powerful, but would be able to pick up useful spells such as divine power and such.

2:

Probably more as a gish character that'll be able to take down casters a little bit better, with levels of eldritch knight or maybe go swiftblade

3:
Probably for entry into Jade Phoenix Mage without losing a caster level and I was hoping for swordsage progression and recovery, although I would only get Tiger Claw stuff.
Note however, that it still probably won't grant full Initiator levels e.g. Sorc 8 is still IL4, not IL8

Edit:
A few more bugging questions:

Can we still use dungeoncrasher fighter?
Does Swordsage share in the Full BAB that the old monk had?

Reposting for DocRoc/DMs

[Doc Roc]

We desperately need sheet checkers. There's almost 35 unapproved or unreviewed characters in the ToS mail box. Any help would be welcome.


Dragonwrought Kobolds do not qualify for Sovereign Archetypes.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Lol, well that's out of the way... gotta find another way to pimp out sorcerers

Edit: Unrelated to sorcerers, but can we use the Nine Swords weapons?

[imperialspectre]

At least one build already has, although the one-trick build that got the 9th-level Shadow Hand maneuver failed pretty miserably in practice.

[Claudius Maximus]

How did that build get a hold of a 9th level maneuver? The IL requirement is pretty hard to beat, and I know of no means to do so.