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ShneekeyTheLost
2009-11-18, 11:02 PM
Or, if you wanna go old school....

"Sonic BOOM!"

To every problem, there is an equal and opposite HADUKEN!!

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-19, 12:51 AM
To every problem, there is an equal and opposite HADUKEN!!

But sonic boom was done with a punch. ;)

Doc Roc
2009-11-19, 02:21 AM
In this case, no, there was not.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-11-20, 10:45 PM
How long, in days, does it take each of our characters to advance a level as they work their way up to 13th? Or are they instantly granted that amount of XP?

On a COMPLETELY unrelated note, what is the highest possible price for a gem? 10,000gp? More?

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-20, 11:38 PM
How long, in days, does it take each of our characters to advance a level as they work their way up to 13th? Or are they instantly granted that amount of XP?

On a COMPLETELY unrelated note, what is the highest possible price for a gem? 10,000gp? More?

I don't believe RAW, there's a limit. Trap the soul, for example, requires gems that quickly exceed that value.

sofawall
2009-11-21, 10:54 AM
How long, in days, does it take each of our characters to advance a level as they work their way up to 13th? Or are they instantly granted that amount of XP?

On a COMPLETELY unrelated note, what is the highest possible price for a gem? 10,000gp? More?

Artificer?

Aharon
2009-11-21, 11:28 AM
Just wanted to note that I've a lot to do IRL right now. I had the goal to check one sheet a week, but I only did that the first two weeks. I will finish checking Thelas' sheet some time in the future, but I can't set a definite date. Sorry!

For the same reason, the truenamer I thought about building probably won't see the light of day anytime soon.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-11-21, 12:05 PM
Artificer?

Not really.

And, since my second question was answered and I assume we have at least one day to buy our supplies and generally live, I just broke Prestidigitation.

Doc Roc
2009-11-21, 12:52 PM
Just wanted to note that I've a lot to do IRL right now. I had the goal to check one sheet a week, but I only did that the first two weeks. I will finish checking Thelas' sheet some time in the future, but I can't set a definite date. Sorry!

For the same reason, the truenamer I thought about building probably won't see the light of day anytime soon.

No worries. We're just grateful for the help.

sofawall
2009-11-21, 02:30 PM
Not really.

And, since my second question was answered and I assume we have at least one day to buy our supplies and generally live, I just broke Prestidigitation.

Are you making a small object that is not being used for spell components, tools or weapons?

Olo Demonsbane
2009-11-21, 06:00 PM
Are you making a small object that is not being used for spell components, tools or weapons?

No, I'm using the rules (for prestidigitation) in Tome and Blood to change one object into another object, provided that they are both fine size and that they are both of the same type (the example given is changing a coin into a ring).

I buy a 10gp gem, then transform it into a 10,000+gp gem.

Claudius Maximus
2009-11-21, 06:10 PM
The change only lasts for an hour, and let's just say that anybody willing to buy a 10,000 gp gem will make sure it isn't affected by what I would assume is the oldest trick in the book, considering pretty much every arcanist, and most gnomes, can cast Prestidigitation.

Doc Roc
2009-11-21, 09:04 PM
The gem Market in Sigil is backed by the hounds.

You are killed by:

Mr. T Hound

With the:

Toothy jaws

in the:

Marketplace.

Claudius Maximus
2009-11-21, 09:20 PM
There's also the whole WBL concern. You get 110000 gp, and no more. You can craft to get effectively more than that, and you can get free items from organizations or class features and such, but we're not going to just let you have more money than that.

I wouldn't let you use profession or craft for profit in the time before the match, so in similar vein you shouldn't expect to be able to buy and sell imaginary treasure to go over WBL, or hire yourself out for adventures. If you've done that sort of thing in the past, it would be the reason you have that 1100000 gp you get for the match, not a means to exceed it.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-21, 09:34 PM
Not to mention that there's not really RP in the sigil place. It's all "sell an item at half its value", "upgrade an item, by RAW" and "buy items".

A 10gp gem temporarily changed into a more valuable gem is still only worth 10gp, base.

I believe merchants purchase all items, free of non-permanent enchantments.

Doc Roc
2009-11-21, 10:31 PM
Actually, I imagine that high worth deals are finalized inside AMFs where possible.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-22, 01:18 PM
Well, I'd probably go with a Master Dispeller targeting the item. Something like a 20th level caster, optimized for dispel, who can successfully dispel a CL 30 spell regularly. Most high worth items are magical. An AMF wouldn't really help.

Logalmier
2009-11-22, 02:59 PM
It might have been addressed already, but what are the rules for purchasing spells?

Sorry if this is a stupid question...:smallredface:

Eurus
2009-11-22, 03:07 PM
Well, I'd probably go with a Master Dispeller targeting the item. Something like a 20th level caster, optimized for dispel, who can successfully dispel a CL 30 spell regularly. Most high worth items are magical. An AMF wouldn't really help.

Doesn't Greater Arcane Sight work just as well, if you're concerned about temporary spell effects?

Doc Roc
2009-11-22, 03:09 PM
It might have been addressed already, but what are the rules for purchasing spells?

Sorry if this is a stupid question...:smallredface:

My recommendation is the purchase of already-filled spellbooks followed by scribing into a BBB, then reselling the filled spellbook.

Cost:
50 x spell levels

Claudius Maximus
2009-11-22, 03:15 PM
And here I've been buying scrolls of every spell I have. You just made my Archivist much richer.

Doc Roc
2009-11-22, 03:18 PM
I'd been doing that too, but I decided to flex my kung fu and find a better way. I think, basically, that this is probably imba, but it's legal for now.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-22, 10:52 PM
Doesn't Greater Arcane Sight work just as well, if you're concerned about temporary spell effects?

Magic Aura spells can hide it, in theory.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-23, 02:09 AM
I'd been doing that too, but I decided to flex my kung fu and find a better way. I think, basically, that this is probably imba, but it's legal for now.The price of copying spells from someone else's spellbook is only 50 GP x spell level(assuming you have a BBB), by RAW. Keep in mind that during actual games, you can trade spells, boosting your book essentially for free, so this is more expensive, and IMHO RAI.

Although I might recommend having Archivists have to buy the scrolls. How many divine spell books are actually floating around out there, after all?

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-23, 02:39 AM
The price of copying spells from someone else's spellbook is only 50 GP x spell level(assuming you have a BBB), by RAW. Keep in mind that during actual games, you can trade spells, boosting your book essentially for free, so this is more expensive, and IMHO RAI.

Although I might recommend having Archivists have to buy the scrolls. How many divine spell books are actually floating around out there, after all?

Rarity is irrelevant. RAW for whether or not an item is available within a city is determined by cost.

By that logic, prebuying a filled book? How many books are out there with exactly the spells you want, regardless of class?

Doc Roc
2009-11-23, 02:53 AM
Rarity is irrelevant. RAW for whether or not an item is available within a city is determined by cost.

By that logic, prebuying a filled book? How many books are out there with exactly the spells you want, regardless of class?

Well, if they are convenient, and reusable for scribing purposes.... which they are, RAW, you could expect libraries to exist of conveniently filled spellbooks.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-23, 03:03 AM
Well, if they are convenient, and reusable for scribing purposes.... which they are, RAW, you could expect libraries to exist of conveniently filled spellbooks.

Such libraries would much more likely be organized for reference, by school, effect, or even alphabet. Specific combat loadouts would be somewhat less likely to be solid library material.

Then again, most reference material IRL bears marked difference from the techniques used in the field by people with practical knowledge, so that seems sensible.

Doc Roc
2009-11-23, 03:05 AM
I really like this image of a world, in a lot of respects. Remind me, when I'm building the base setting for SUPR, to include some of this.

Doc Roc
2009-11-23, 10:03 PM
Faustian Pacts, as described in FCII, are now banned due to innumerable exploits.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-11-25, 05:01 PM
DMs
What happens when you hide and the opponent enters your square?

Claudius Maximus
2009-11-25, 07:12 PM
DMs and lvl 1 sharnian:
I have no idea, and I've been wondering this for a long time. Unless we can find RAW, I suggest we treat it like an (unintentional) Overrun. You can just choose to step aside.

Milskidasith
2009-11-26, 12:36 AM
So... yeah, I have a build idea. It's actually dirt cheap, too. It's something that probably should have been banned, though. Just need to get the sheet up.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-26, 01:22 AM
So... yeah, I have a build idea. It's actually dirt cheap, too. It's something that probably should have been banned, though. Just need to get the sheet up.

If it should be, chances are it will be, after you build it and run it. That's why I just PM Doc Roc with the issues I see, without wasting my time with a build to demonstrate. If there's a point of contention on whether it's unbalanced, THEN I build something to test it.

sofawall
2009-11-26, 01:25 AM
If it should be, chances are it will be, after you build it and run it. That's why I just PM Doc Roc with the issues I see, without wasting my time with a build to demonstrate. If there's a point of contention on whether it's unbalanced, THEN I build something to test it.

Borg Cube was banned as soon as I mentioned he forgot to ban Stronghold Builder's Guide. It went something along the lines of:

"Hey, you forgot to ban a book. I plan on using it."
"Which book?"
"Not telling."
"Tell me, dammit."
"Stronghold Builder's Guide."
"...**** you, Sofa."

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-26, 01:31 AM
Borg Cube was banned as soon as I mentioned he forgot to ban Stronghold Builder's Guide. It went something along the lines of:

"Hey, you forgot to ban a book. I plan on using it."
"Which book?"
"Not telling."
"Tell me, dammit."
"Stronghold Builder's Guide."
"...**** you, Sofa."

My conversations go similar. I believe there was a lovely talisman that let you use Diplomancy to negate attacks, that was banned the moment I mentioned it.

I've had him swear a few times over Tome of Magic, as it relates to some of the class fixes.

So many <Su> abilities, and the ability to have any <Su> provoke.

Doc Roc
2009-11-26, 03:09 AM
Love's Pain, though I regret it, is banned.

Goodbye funny spell I really liked..... :(

Mil's character, Mclovin, is formally granted an exhibition-only exemption, in case people are curious about the ban, as it is a really interestin' one.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-26, 03:16 AM
Love's Pain, though I regret it, is banned.
I feel obligated to point it out (again) that Bestow Curse can also do nasty things to loved ones as per the BoVD.

Doc Roc
2009-11-26, 03:17 AM
I feel obligated to point it out (again) that Bestow Curse can also do nasty things to loved ones as per the BoVD.

Not.... the same.

IthilanorStPete
2009-11-26, 03:26 AM
Mil, I'd love an exhibiton against my Cleric to see what's up.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-11-26, 03:46 AM
Mil, I'd love an exhibiton against my Cleric to see what's up.

How would you like to square up against a CW Samurai?

Milskidasith
2009-11-26, 03:47 PM
Ok, my guy is essentially done. I don't have his spell list nailed down, but he only needs two spells, really, so I could probably fight.

sofawall
2009-11-26, 03:55 PM
Milskidasith, I want to lend you the Cube for the fight, but I don't have it typed up anywhere on this computer. I know what it does, effectively, but I don't remember specific prices and suchlike. Do you want what I have?

Milskidasith
2009-11-26, 03:56 PM
I probably could not afford the cube, although it would be useful. I'd like to run it with my stuff first, and then I can ditch everything not necessary and use the cube. Is the Cube the same one that had the soft center inside in the other thread?

sofawall
2009-11-26, 04:00 PM
I probably could not afford the cube, although it would be useful. I'd like to run it with my stuff first, and then I can ditch everything not necessary and use the cube. Is the Cube the same one that had the soft center inside in the other thread?

Yes and no. In the thread, where I kept making references that the box was not the same as The Cube? There are some fairly concrete differences.

Milskidasith
2009-11-26, 07:25 PM
So, rules question: Where are people if they get anticipate teleported and have to wait around?

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-26, 07:26 PM
They are lost in the Warp.

lvl 1 sharnian
2009-11-26, 07:28 PM
I know the rules state that Plane Shifted cannot be used to leave the plane, but is there a reason we can't use it offensively, as a SoD? Because currently, the prismatic line has 1/7 chance of doing nothing. I propose atleast the send opponent to random plane be allowed.

Signmaker
2009-11-26, 07:30 PM
Yes and no. In the thread, where I kept making references that the box was not the same as The Cube? There are some fairly concrete differences.

Comparing disarming The Box and The Cube is like the difference between nicking the lock on your brother's door and trying to disarm a nuke.

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-11-26, 07:32 PM
Comparing disarming The Box and The Cube is like the difference between nicking the lock on your brother's door and trying to disarm a nuke.

Just pull the plug.

IthilanorStPete
2009-11-26, 10:11 PM
Just submitted a Warmarked. I'd be up for an exhibition.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-26, 10:12 PM
Just submitted a Warmarked. I'd be up for an exhibition.

Prefer caster or melee?

IthilanorStPete
2009-11-26, 10:14 PM
Caster, I think.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-26, 10:16 PM
I have a cerebremancer that I'd be willing to test you on, if you like.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-11-26, 10:16 PM
Ok, heres something I've been wanting to try for a while now: Team ToS!

A 4 PC vs 4 PC battle, with each player controlling the 4 PCs on his side. Should go much faster than even a normal 2v2.

So we don't have a party entirely composed of Wizards, lets lay out these ground rules:

The first party member must have 10+ BAB
The second party member must be able to cast 6th+ level arcane spells
The third party member must be able to cast 6th+ level divine spells
The fourth party member must be able to find traps and have at least 100 skill points.

Anyone want to make a party?

IthilanorStPete
2009-11-26, 10:21 PM
Olo: That sounds fun, but not...now.

PR: Thread made here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7389383#post7389383).

Claudius Maximus
2009-11-26, 10:28 PM
Olo, I might be up for that, as I have 3 of the 4 roles covered already with existing characters. I could throw together a skillsey type (or borrow one, if anyone's amenable to that) and accept your challenge. We would need a pretty huge arena though. I suggest my recent blowup of Columns 2.

However, this would have to be after finals are over. For the time being I'm pretty swamped. Would you wait a week or two?

Olo Demonsbane
2009-11-26, 10:55 PM
Olo, I might be up for that, as I have 3 of the 4 roles covered already with existing characters. I could throw together a skillsey type (or borrow one, if anyone's amenable to that) and accept your challenge. We would need a pretty huge arena though. I suggest my recent blowup of Columns 2.

However, this would have to be after finals are over. For the time being I'm pretty swamped. Would you wait a week or two?

Sure...I still have to finish my party.

Eurus
2009-11-26, 11:07 PM
Ok, heres something I've been wanting to try for a while now: Team ToS!

A 4 PC vs 4 PC battle, with each player controlling the 4 PCs on his side. Should go much faster than even a normal 2v2.

So we don't have a party entirely composed of Wizards, lets lay out these ground rules:

The first party member must have 10+ BAB
The second party member must be able to cast 6th+ level arcane spells
The third party member must be able to cast 6th+ level divine spells
The fourth party member must be able to find traps and have at least 100 skill points.

Anyone want to make a party?

Now I'm curious. Is there a way to make a single character that can fill all of those requirements? Skill points and arcane + divine casting are easy, but can you get all of that and 10+ BAB (without just abusing Divine Power)?

IthilanorStPete
2009-11-27, 10:15 PM
Phoenix: we still up for the exhibition? thread is at http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132973

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-27, 10:18 PM
Phoenix: we still up for the exhibition? thread is at http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132973

My internet connection is less than awesome. I'll try to copy/paste it in.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-11-28, 01:40 AM
In a task that combined the brilliance of Milskidasith and my determination to ban something, Yain was born. Anyone want an exhibition match?

It can't be that bad, I have 12 levels in commoner...

EDIT: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7396281&posted=1#post7396281

Why the Epic Level Handbook should be banned.

Claudius Maximus
2009-11-28, 12:24 PM
I'm pretty sure you already can't do that based on the item metamagic and CL limits. I seem to remember we determined that there were no epic crafters and that only a certain list of metamagics could be applied to items. I don't quite remember the exact list, but I could probably dig it up in a little while (strapped for time at the moment).

But yeah, we have several rules that aren't explicitly on the first page. We should probably change that and put them there.

Unless I'm crazy and just imagined these rules.

Doc Roc
2009-11-28, 12:56 PM
I talked with Olo, I'm going to allow him one fight, then ban the material related to it explicitly. It's time that we sat down and really firmed up that rule-set.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-11-28, 02:03 PM
Well, I've had my one fight (the link above links to it), so lay down the ban hammer!

Claudius Maximus
2009-11-28, 05:14 PM
Proposed rulings:


Magic Items have a CL cap of 20.

Items that hold spells affected by metamagic can not have their cost modifiers reduced by any means.

The only metamagic effects applicable to spell completion or spell trigger items are Heighten, Extend, Enlarge, Widen, Still, and Silent. Published items are an exception to this.

I'd appreciate criticism for these, especially the list for the third ruling.

I also propose that we explicitly lay out the required durations for all-day buffs in the first page, including the rule that 12 hours durations have 1 minute remaining come match.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-28, 06:15 PM
Proposed rulings:


Magic Items have a CL cap of 20.

Items that hold spells affected by metamagic can not have their cost modifiers reduced by any means.

The only metamagic effects applicable to spell completion or spell trigger items are Heighten, Extend, Enlarge, Widen, Still, and Silent. Published items are an exception to this.

I'd appreciate criticism for these, especially the list for the third ruling.

I also propose that we explicitly lay out the required durations for all-day buffs in the first page, including the rule that 12 hours durations have 1 minute remaining come match.

I can see the first two. I don't see limiting the out of core feats, though.

My ideas:

Items with metamagic effects built in cannot have metamagic costs reduced via any means.

Caster level for items is determined by the minimum level needed to cast the spell, unless spelled out otherwise by RAW (such as potions, which can be crafted by CL). If a level 1 spell is maximized, it's CL 7. Spell level is determined by the level of the spell slot used to hold the spell (the above spell, though it's a level 1 spell for other purposes, is a level 4 spell for item creation purposes).

ML Cap of 20 for ALL purposes, all gear, all items, all effects, all everything.

Claudius Maximus
2009-11-28, 07:39 PM
I can see the first two. I don't see limiting the out of core feats, though.

The restriction was proposed mostly to curb the power of metamagic scrolls. As it stands you can have a scroll of CL 20th Chained Greater Dispel Magic for 4500 gp, which for some reason doesn't sit right with me. Not to mention scrolls of Twinned Celerity for 3000 gp. The ones on my proposed allowed list are there because they seem relatively harmless.


Items with metamagic effects built in cannot have metamagic costs reduced via any means.

I agree, though I don't see how that's different from my second proposal.


Caster level for items is determined by the minimum level needed to cast the spell, unless spelled out otherwise by RAW (such as potions, which can be crafted by CL). If a level 1 spell is maximized, it's CL 7. Spell level is determined by the level of the spell slot used to hold the spell (the above spell, though it's a level 1 spell for other purposes, is a level 4 spell for item creation purposes).

This sounds good to me, except I don't see why we can't let characters make e.g. CL 12 Gauntlets of Ogre's Strength if they choose to make it at 12th level. I definitely agree with the metamagic slot determining minimum CL, but I thought that was how it worked anyway.


ML Cap of 20 for ALL purposes, all gear, all items, all effects, all everything.

I assume this applies to CL too. I certainly agree with it for items and gear, but I'm ambivalent about it applying to characters. I'll leave it up to Doc Roc to decide whether to apply such an extensive cap.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-28, 08:19 PM
Should we adapt the DMG variant where charged items have 1/5th their charges and 1-time use items cost 5x as much? Seeing as these are almost all one-shots where something being consumed doesn't matter, it seems reasonable.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-28, 08:34 PM
Should we adapt the DMG variant where charged items have 1/5th their charges and 1-time use items cost 5x as much? Seeing as these are almost all one-shots where something being consumed doesn't matter, it seems reasonable.

Well the dungeon could be considered more.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-11-28, 08:48 PM
Anyone want an exhibition with a much more sane character?

IthilanorStPete
2009-11-28, 08:49 PM
I'll go for one, Olo.

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-28, 09:03 PM
The restriction was proposed mostly to curb the power of metamagic scrolls. As it stands you can have a scroll of CL 20th Chained Greater Dispel Magic for 4500 gp, which for some reason doesn't sit right with me. Not to mention scrolls of Twinned Celerity for 3000 gp. The ones on my proposed allowed list are there because they seem relatively harmless.You can get better than a +20 Chained Dispel rather easily with a character at level 12. I believe my best was a guaranteed check that would dispel CL 22 spells. I could probably do better though.
I do believe Celerity's text states that after you resolve your action, you're dazed. Which means, after the first one, you'd be dazed for the second?


I agree, though I don't see how that's different from my second proposal.It's not. I just phrased it slightly differently.


This sounds good to me, except I don't see why we can't let characters make e.g. CL 12 Gauntlets of Ogre's Strength if they choose to make it at 12th level. I definitely agree with the metamagic slot determining minimum CL, but I thought that was how it worked anyway.It is, I just felt the need to outline it. However, the static items should be as listed in the book, IMO. Less confusing, IMO, for the sheet checkers.



I assume this applies to CL too. I certainly agree with it for items and gear, but I'm ambivalent about it applying to characters. I'll leave it up to Doc Roc to decide whether to apply such an extensive cap.
Eh, I feel it would handle many current issues, both this and the Holy Word line.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-11-28, 09:05 PM
Ith: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7400235#post7400235

Glimbur
2009-11-28, 10:07 PM
I do believe Celerity's text states that after you resolve your action, you're dazed. Which means, after the first one, you'd be dazed for the second?

That's still good; it makes Celerity a bonus action instead of taking your scheduled action sooner. I don't think it works that way though, the specific text is "you are dazed until the end of your next turn" and Celerity actions are not part of your turn...?

Tshern
2009-11-29, 08:13 AM
Hmmm, Tshern is contemplating. To test his character optimization mettle or not to test it...

ex cathedra
2009-11-29, 08:38 AM
Hmmm, Tshern is contemplating. To test his character optimization mettle or not to test it...

I'm quite interested in any monstrosities you might come up with.

term1nally s1ck
2009-11-29, 08:52 AM
Subscribed. I look forward to testing my wits against the best optimisers here.

Tshern
2009-11-29, 08:54 AM
I'm quite interested in any monstrosities you might come up with.
I have been out of the game for quite a while now, so I wouldn't expect too much. Do people tend to read the character sheets of their opponents or what? Just wondering, because that might take the point of focusing on something peculiar, but blockable.

ex cathedra
2009-11-29, 08:58 AM
I have been out of the game for quite a while now, so I wouldn't expect too much. Do people tend to read the character sheets of their opponents or what? Just wondering, because that might take the point of focusing on something peculiar, but blockable.

Generally, only one person will see your sheet. Once you submit it to the checkers one of us will handle it alone. You aren't forced to share any information with your opponent unless you're using some specific uncommon tactics; for example, minion-mancers and similar groups of enemies generally warrant warning.

Tshern
2009-11-29, 09:03 AM
Generally, only one person will see your sheet. Once you submit it to the checkers one of us will handle it alone. You aren't forced to share any information with your opponent unless you're using some specific uncommon tactics; for example, minion-mancers and similar groups of enemies generally warrant warning.
Oh yes, that I understand. I am a student, which means I am also lazy. Therefore, no minions from me. I'd love to try this without excessive spellcasting, but I would have to find someone willing to limit spellcasting to fourth level spells or something. Let's see what I can come up with.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-11-29, 09:33 AM
Oh yes, that I understand. I am a student, which means I am also lazy. Therefore, no minions from me. I'd love to try this without excessive spellcasting, but I would have to find someone willing to limit spellcasting to fourth level spells or something. Let's see what I can come up with.

Well, if you are looking for a fight against another mostly melee build, and feeling your wheaties, I've got a character you can bout with.

Tshern
2009-11-29, 10:01 AM
Well, if you are looking for a fight against another mostly melee build, and feeling your wheaties, I've got a character you can bout with.
No character made yet and I am still trying to absorb in all the rules, but I am already thinking about different options for both casters and melee characters. However, I am really keen on trying this, so I'll try to come up with something decent in a day or two!

Amphetryon
2009-11-29, 11:03 AM
Oh yes, that I understand. I am a student, which means I am also lazy. Therefore, no minions from me. I'd love to try this without excessive spellcasting, but I would have to find someone willing to limit spellcasting to fourth level spells or something. Let's see what I can come up with.

I've got a potential adversary with only 1st level spells, if you're interested.

Tshern
2009-11-29, 11:05 AM
I've got a potential adversary with only 1st level spells, if you're interested.
I try to come up with a character of my own first. Thanks for the heads up.

term1nally s1ck
2009-11-29, 11:30 AM
Can anyone link me to an editable character sheet online? I'm struggling to find a way to submit a Warmarked....

Also, a couple of questions for DMs


First, can Mark of the Forge's Essence ability apply to your own weapons?

Second, does the concealment from blinking make my opponent flat-footed, or just denied dex...it has relevance to mark of the craven's shape ability?

Third, how does the Splitting enhancement work? Do I roll separately for the extra arrows, does precision damage apply twice, etc..?

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-11-29, 11:33 AM
Myth-weavers.com (http://www.myth-weavers.com)

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-29, 11:37 AM
www.coyotecode/profiler
www.myth-weavers.com
www.thetangledweb.net

Arakune
2009-11-29, 11:49 AM
Challenge! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7403288#post7403288)
---------------------------

On a sidenote, we can make periodic challenges like those from time to time. Any interested?

term1nally s1ck
2009-11-29, 01:26 PM
Just completed a war-marked, and put it in for checking. Assuming the ruling qs go against me, anyone up for a friendly? I need to get used to the whole PbP thingy.

EDIT: Also, Phoenix, I am jealous.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-11-29, 02:29 PM
I have...close to 50 Test of Spite characters at last count, so I will fight anyone who wants with whatever they want. I have Tier 1.5 to Tier 4, so I range the spectrum :smallsmile:

Milskidasith
2009-11-29, 02:45 PM
As a note, McLovin is still available to fight in an exhibition. Granted, he needs some fine tuning, because I don't have a good buff routine yet, but it's still pretty good.

term1nally s1ck
2009-11-29, 03:00 PM
I have...close to 50 Test of Spite characters at last count, so I will fight anyone who wants with whatever they want. I have Tier 1.5 to Tier 4, so I range the spectrum :smallsmile:

Can I go against some sort of Tier 2 thing? I believe the warmarked is supposed to be on par with the casters, so....

I do need to know how splitting works, though....do I roll to attack once or twice?

Olo Demonsbane
2009-11-29, 03:02 PM
Can I go against some sort of Tier 2 thing? I believe the warmarked is supposed to be on par with the casters, so....

I do need to know how splitting works, though....do I roll to attack once or twice?

You roll twice.

Would a Tier 1.5 warmarked suit your needs?

ex cathedra
2009-11-29, 03:02 PM
Can I go against some sort of Tier 2 thing? I believe the warmarked is supposed to be on par with the casters, so....

I do need to know how splitting works, though....do I roll to attack once or twice?

I emailed you something regarding your character, and I believe that I answered that question, as well.

term1nally s1ck
2009-11-29, 03:12 PM
Yeah, that'd be fine, Olo. It would seem, pending an extra feat or 2 I forgot, that the build is fine, so whenever you're ready :)

Olo Demonsbane
2009-11-29, 03:27 PM
Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7404438#post7404438)

Go to this link and we can start fighting :smallsmile:

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-29, 04:31 PM
Just completed a war-marked, and put it in for checking. Assuming the ruling qs go against me, anyone up for a friendly? I need to get used to the whole PbP thingy.

EDIT: Also, Phoenix, I am jealous.

Jealous? Howso?

term1nally s1ck
2009-11-29, 05:01 PM
Your previous post number...I'm in a geeky mood :smallbiggrin:

PhoenixRivers
2009-11-29, 05:15 PM
Your previous post number...I'm in a geeky mood :smallbiggrin:

Ah. Totally didn't even notice that in this thread, I'm 1337.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-11-30, 10:48 PM
Anyone want an exhibition?

Mushroom Ninja
2009-11-30, 10:52 PM
Anyone want an exhibition?

Sure, it's been forever since I've done one. I'll use TODD THE TERRIBLE!

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-01, 10:47 PM
After that fun battle, anyone else want to fight?

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-03, 03:10 PM
So, will any of the d20r classes be allowed to play? I think some of them could be quite... interesting.

Besides, if there's anyone on the boards who will be able to give Fax a statical breakdown of the mechanical viability of his classes, complete with potential exploitable loopholes, it would be us...

Doc Roc
2009-12-05, 05:04 AM
Gentlefolk, it's almost time for a new thread. With it, comes a chance for your opinions to influence the future format of ToS.

Do you want to move up to the 3.x.2 rule-set? or even up to the 3.x.3? We have a lot of opportunities here, and I think it would measurably improve the meta-game in a lot of ways.

What about maps? The map maker I supplied is horribly broken, so I'll hunt down a new one. In the mean-time, are there maps you want?


Dungeons:
I haven't been able to keep up. I'm rather upset about this. Are there any GMs out there with a penchant for violence?

IthilanorStPete
2009-12-05, 09:14 AM
3.52 seems fine; 3.53 is SUPR, correct?

Claudius Maximus
2009-12-05, 11:54 AM
What are the rules for 3.52 and 3.53?

I might be able to handle a dungeon. I'm sure I can handle encounters just fine; it's the planning stage I worry about, since I might not have time to both plan and run the thing. Also, I have never run an actual game with optimized characters, though I don't think this will be too much of a problem. I'm not completely helpless, but it would be nice if you supplied some encounters or dungeon designs or something. Even vague ideas for encounters and traps would be nice.

sofawall
2009-12-05, 12:26 PM
Doc Roc, you know my stance on dungeons.

imperialspectre
2009-12-05, 01:45 PM
SUPR is not a 3.5.x project. It's essentially a spiritual successor to 3.5 that includes a number of fairly massive changes. We'll certainly want to do destructive testing, but ToS itself is 3.5-based and focuses on a different balance point compared to SUPR.

3.5.3 basically means we bring in the replacement Barbarian, start looking into the second "half" of the Monk class progression (or more likely several modular second halves), and maybe a few other things I'm not immediately familiar with.

Doc Roc
2009-12-05, 02:49 PM
SUPR is not a 3.5.x project. It's essentially a spiritual successor to 3.5 that includes a number of fairly massive changes. We'll certainly want to do destructive testing, but ToS itself is 3.5-based and focuses on a different balance point compared to SUPR.

3.5.3 basically means we bring in the replacement Barbarian, start looking into the second "half" of the Monk class progression (or more likely several modular second halves), and maybe a few other things I'm not immediately familiar with.

This is a good summary.

Basically, it'd open up Paladin and Barbarian, though in this case due to protests the non-PD paladin would stay legal. The non-PD barbarian would, however, not.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-06, 12:34 PM
I'd say we should go right into 3.5.3.

I think I might be able to run a dungeon. Just give me a week before I can enjoy my vacation (:smallbiggrin:) and then I can start making it.

Claudius Maximus
2009-12-07, 05:00 PM
I think I'll throw together a dungeon in the next week or two. Any interested players with qualified characters?

Doc Roc
2009-12-07, 05:21 PM
I would be delighted by that, CM.

Thelas
2009-12-07, 05:36 PM
Official "if-it's-okay-I'll-do-a-dungeon-too" announcement of mine.
Will be ready at some point, but not that soon.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-07, 09:23 PM
I think I'll throw together a dungeon in the next week or two. Any interested players with qualified characters?

Much as I desperately wish to field-test Takahashi, I doubt I would have the time available to play...

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-07, 09:44 PM
I think I'll throw together a dungeon in the next week or two. Any interested players with qualified characters?

Depends...would you be fine with a summoner?

And, if yes, would anyone like to fight?

Claudius Maximus
2009-12-08, 02:53 PM
I would be fine with running a dungeon for your summoner. Now you just need to qualify, which may be tough running a minionmancer.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-08, 03:53 PM
I would be fine with running a dungeon for your summoner. Now you just need to qualify, which may be tough running a minionmancer.

Long as he has a different viable kill method, he's ok. Minions are great for action economy, only ok for actual damage.

sofawall
2009-12-08, 04:24 PM
I have a distinct feeling that The Cube does not qualify for a dungeon run.

Would I be correct in this assumption?

Amphetryon
2009-12-08, 04:28 PM
DocRoc:
Officially requesting Linked Power permission for the build I mentioned to you, for the record.

Doc Roc
2009-12-08, 07:12 PM
Granted in full, Amph.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-08, 10:25 PM
Long as he has a different viable kill method, he's ok. Minions are great for action economy, only ok for actual damage.

This guy's Tier 1.5 and almost entirely core. He took out two other ToSers in one round. He'll be fine.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-08, 10:29 PM
This guy's Tier 1.5 and almost entirely core. He took out two other ToSers in one round. He'll be fine.

My psion required 2 rounds to accomplish that. ;)

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-08, 10:50 PM
My psion required 2 rounds to accomplish that. ;)

Yeah, he's one of the only of my characters that I'd feel moderately comfortable fighting one of yours with.

Also, I'm working on Kelp the Warmarked :)

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-08, 11:03 PM
Yeah, he's one of the only of my characters that I'd feel moderately comfortable fighting one of yours with.

Also, I'm working on Kelp the Warmarked :)

Indeed. I'll be interested to see how he matches up to my slow based warmarked.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-08, 11:28 PM
Indeed. I'll be interested to see how he matches up to my slow based warmarked.

Unfortunately, he's no longer infinite loop, based on rereading the definition of instantaneous actions.

Still, I'll probably be able to get the thing he's based on banned, so alls good.


EDIT: Anyone want to fight him?

Doc Roc
2009-12-09, 01:05 AM
Ban listings ban listings, happy times are here....


One:
Gem Magic from MoF is banned excluding exhibitions against Sign's character.
Two:
Energy Transformation Field is pending review, and is exhibition Only.
Three:
All epic items are banned, scrolls of higher than 9th are banned.

Gralamin
2009-12-09, 01:07 AM
You know Doc, I might have to actually try making something for this after exams.

Doc Roc
2009-12-09, 04:37 AM
You will always be welcome in my iron tower.....

Tshern
2009-12-09, 05:53 AM
You will always be welcome in my iron tower.....
If I didn't dislike emoticons, I would a heart to the end of this message for the reason I bolded.

Milskidasith
2009-12-09, 01:02 PM
Can I get an exhibition match running a d20r sorcerer? I want to see just how broken I can make one.

sofawall
2009-12-09, 02:14 PM
I would say yes, but you know, only have one build.

I really should make a Warmarked or something, just for fighting without the Cube.

Doc Roc
2009-12-09, 02:58 PM
Or a Sage for exhibition matches.

Mushroom Ninja
2009-12-09, 03:18 PM
Can I get an exhibition match running a d20r sorcerer? I want to see just how broken I can make one.

This is a cool idea. I'd be up for playtesting some d20r characters.

sofawall
2009-12-09, 03:58 PM
Or a Sage for exhibition matches.

Still tweaking him.

Doc Roc
2009-12-09, 04:11 PM
Formal permission is granted, MN, Mi.

Doc Roc
2009-12-09, 04:34 PM
After deliberation, I am formally banning planar binding and planar ally.

IthilanorStPete
2009-12-09, 04:37 PM
Makes sense, it's better than the rather "soft" mention they get as of now.

Doc Roc
2009-12-09, 04:39 PM
There are still some calling effects that are legal, but they're way less stupid than PB and PA. I think with that move, I'm prepared to suggest that the majority of the major cracks in 3.5 are covered by the ban list.

I know it sounds like hubris, but we've seen the number of explodily stupid things happening drop waaaaaaay off.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-09, 10:06 PM
I know it sounds like hubris, but we've seen the number of explodily stupid things happening drop waaaaaaay off.

Yeah, thats because I'm back in school :p

But no, seriously, we're actually fixing 3.5...as well as it can be fixed with a sledge-ban-hammer, at least.

And then 3.5.3(+) helps even more, adding in replacements for inadequate stuff.

Milskidasith
2009-12-09, 11:08 PM
Here's a question: For my D20r sorcerer, do I use full d20r rules, including the +1 stat to two stats and the d20r races, or am I using the class but with 3.51 rules for stats and skills and such?

IthilanorStPete
2009-12-09, 11:13 PM
I know it sounds like hubris, but we've seen the number of explodily stupid things happening drop waaaaaaay off.

Looks like my project for christmas break'll be trying to rectify this. :D

Doc Roc
2009-12-09, 11:13 PM
Here's a question: For my D20r sorcerer, do I use full d20r rules, including the +1 stat to two stats and the d20r races, or am I using the class but with 3.51 rules for stats and skills and such?

I suspect we should test it in its native.

Doc Roc
2009-12-10, 12:35 AM
Metaconcert is banned.



Wish is replaced in all ways by Miracle. Tentative!

Thoughts?

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-10, 12:43 AM
Metaconcert is banned.



Wish is replaced in all ways by Miracle. Tentative!

Thoughts?

I'm fine with that if Miracle gets a couple abilities that wish has, but Miracle is missing.

Namely, the +1 inherent to stats.

Claudius Maximus
2009-12-10, 12:51 AM
What are you trying to accomplish with such a change? If you don't want people making wealth or magic items with Wishes, why not just ban those uses of Wish? I can see banning it to curb ridiculous legalese wishes and give the granting power to a third party, though.

I also like the inherent bonuses. If that moves to Miracle, I suggest having it be one of the uses that costs xp.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-10, 01:12 AM
What are you trying to accomplish with such a change? If you don't want people making wealth or magic items with Wishes, why not just ban those uses of Wish? I can see banning it to curb ridiculous legalese wishes and give the granting power to a third party, though.

I also like the inherent bonuses. If that moves to Miracle, I suggest having it be one of the uses that costs xp.

Agreed.

I also believe that if Miracle is ok'd, there should be "safe choices", and "Safe XP Choices". Tighten it up to remove the open ended ambiguity.

Come to think of it, wish would be fine with that too.

Doc Roc
2009-12-10, 03:10 AM
I think the natural move then, is a rewrite that merges the two elegantly, followed by the banning and replacement of both.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-10, 03:30 AM
I think the natural move then, is a rewrite that merges the two elegantly, followed by the banning and replacement of both.

Wishacle? Sounds like a frozen dessert on a stick.

Doc Roc
2009-12-10, 03:45 AM
Wishacle? Sounds like a frozen dessert on a stick.

It sounds delicious!

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-12-10, 01:24 PM
How many abuses of Wish are there, though? Magic item creation abuse due to Wish as an SLA, legalese abuses to get beyond the intended power limits, and that's about it. Other than that, you're just looking at extreme flexibility, which though powerful, isn't really broken.

At the least, I think the majority of the safe list needs to be retained. Duplicating lower level slots, +1 to stats, and Undo Misfortune are all balanced(against lower level spells) and should be retained. I actually think the safe list ought to be expanded, so you can eliminate the "similar effects" clause completely.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-10, 01:29 PM
How many abuses of Wish are there, though? Magic item creation abuse due to Wish as an SLA, legalese abuses to get beyond the intended power limits, and that's about it. Other than that, you're just looking at extreme flexibility, which though powerful, isn't really broken.

At the least, I think the majority of the safe list needs to be retained. Duplicating lower level slots, +1 to stats, and Undo Misfortune are all balanced(against lower level spells) and should be retained. I actually think the safe list ought to be expanded, so you can eliminate the "similar effects" clause completely.

I think that the "whatever you want" clause needs out of there. It's not clearly defined. Basically, Rule 0 needs to be removed from the spell.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-10, 09:35 PM
I think that the "whatever you want" clause needs out of there. It's not clearly defined. Basically, Rule 0 needs to be removed from the spell.

I'll agree with PR here. I never liked that rule.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-11, 12:22 AM
I'll agree with PR here. I never liked that rule.

My philosophy is that to streamline the game, Rule 0 interpretation needs to be removed as much as possible. Yes, the DM's there to run the game, but energy currently going towards rulings and balancing is better spent on encounter design and storytelling.

term1nally s1ck
2009-12-11, 09:12 AM
Ok, I've upgraded the Warmarked slightly...does anyone want to have a friendly fight against it? I just need to check what happens with splitting vs stand still...do you add both damage rolls for the DC, or does your opponent make two saves?

Claudius Maximus
2009-12-11, 12:44 PM
Your opponent would make two saves, as you're hitting him with two different attacks.

Glimbur
2009-12-11, 03:02 PM
I have a character that needs checking here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=172391). As a warning, it uses lots of Incarnum which I don't think the Test of Spite has considered yet.

Claudius Maximus
2009-12-11, 03:21 PM
I'll check it, so expect a pm sometime later today. For future reference, you should use the link on the first page to submit characters to the central sheet-checking email.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-11, 03:45 PM
Ok, I've upgraded the Warmarked slightly...does anyone want to have a friendly fight against it? I just need to check what happens with splitting vs stand still...do you add both damage rolls for the DC, or does your opponent make two saves?

I have a new warmarked/crusader that I made last night...~Tier 2, sound good?

Tyndmyr
2009-12-11, 04:01 PM
I challenge taltamir to make good his claims regarding monk/rogue vs wizard via ToS rules.

Rules, as per the example he put.

Level 9.
A world so devoid of magic that magic items cannot be purchased at all, nor new spells found.
No collegiate wizard feat.
I'll play wizard, he plays his choice of monk or rogue.

If anyone would volunteer to DM for us, that'd be wonderful.

Thelas
2009-12-11, 04:04 PM
I challenge taltamir to make good his claims regarding monk/rogue vs wizard via ToS rules.

Rules, as per the example he put.

Level 9.
A world so devoid of magic that magic items cannot be purchased at all, nor new spells found.
No collegiate wizard feat.
I'll play wizard, he plays his choice of monk or rogue.

If anyone would volunteer to DM for us, that'd be wonderful.

If needed, and if both players are okay, I'll run the match.

Tyndmyr
2009-12-11, 04:05 PM
I'm ok with it, let's see if talt responds(I pmed him) and is ok with it.

term1nally s1ck
2009-12-11, 04:09 PM
Yeah, I think so...I've got a new trick to use, which should be quite useful, and givees the build enough defence to hopefully boost it's tier a lil:smallcool:

I'm considering changing it slightly, when does the AoO from karmic strike occur, before or after their attack?

And lastly....how does splitting and manyshot work? I would guess I basically get 2 manyshots, and roll once for each.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-11, 04:13 PM
Yeah, I think so...I've got a new trick to use, which should be quite useful, and givees the build enough defence to hopefully boost it's tier a lil:smallcool:

That's good.


I'm considering changing it slightly, when does the AoO from karmic strike occur, before or after their attack?

At the exact same time--neither interrupts the other.


And lastly....how does splitting and manyshot work? I would guess I basically get 2 manyshots, and roll once for each.

That's correct.

You want me to make the thread?

Doc Roc
2009-12-11, 04:57 PM
If needed, and if both players are okay, I'll run the match.

Permission granted. I will check the sheets myself. You had best ask what his stance is on crafting things, animal handling, and a few other things.

term1nally s1ck
2009-12-11, 05:31 PM
Yeah, that's fine. Your call on maps/buff rounds, I think I'm happy with them all.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-11, 06:09 PM
Why ETF should be BANNED:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7482019&posted=1#post7482019

Even with him immune to the offensive nature of ETF (my primary attack), Sign was defeated by the stupidly powerful defensive nature of the ETF. I reccomend that it gets fully banned.

Claudius Maximus
2009-12-11, 06:13 PM
I support this proposed ban. That spell is just ridonculous.

Signmaker
2009-12-11, 06:39 PM
Why ETF should be BANNED:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7482019&posted=1#post7482019

Even with him immune to the offensive nature of ETF (my primary attack), Sign was defeated by the stupidly powerful defensive nature of the ETF. I reccomend that it gets fully banned.

You're going to want to change that offensive spell to one of instantaneous, duration, by the way. You apparently can't spam a quadrillion kelptacles.

Regardless, yeah, it was painful.

On a side note, I'd like to try out my build again, minus the ETF. =P Any takers?

term1nally s1ck
2009-12-11, 06:56 PM
For the fight with Olo: Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7482262#post7482262)

Doc Roc
2009-12-11, 07:05 PM
Move carried, ETF banned.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-11, 11:33 PM
Couple things to note:

1) ETF pretty much needs 4 rounds of buffing. Even with 3, on a small board, it's easy to counter (hit someone, for example), and on a large one, possible to avoid.

2) Disjunction isn't absorbed by the field.

Not saying it SHOULDN'T be banned, just saying that it has weaknesses that are being overlooked.

sofawall
2009-12-11, 11:42 PM
1) ETF pretty much needs 4 rounds of buffing. Even with 3, on a small board, it's easy to counter (hit someone, for example), and on a large one, possible to avoid.


Well, how many ways do we have to reduce unwieldy casting times?

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-12, 12:16 AM
Well, how many ways do we have to reduce unwieldy casting times?

Multiple Round casting times is harder to reduce than 1 round.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-12, 12:33 AM
Couple things to note:

1) ETF pretty much needs 4 rounds of buffing. Even with 3, on a small board, it's easy to counter (hit someone, for example), and on a large one, possible to avoid.

A scroll of Rapid ETF isnt that much more expensive.


2) Disjunction isn't absorbed by the field.

How many 13th level characters have regular access to MDJ?


Not saying it SHOULDN'T be banned, just saying that it has weaknesses that are being overlooked.

Yeah, this isn't as necessary to be banned for the ToS battles, as for 3.5.x. As a wizard, I could easily put an ETF of Summon Elemental Monolith outside a 13th level dungeon, then flood it with spell levels and wipe out the entire dungeon. Its also very useful for Red Wizards and Co.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-12, 01:04 AM
How many 13th level characters have regular access to MDJ?Anyone with sorc/wizard levels and a scroll, or the Magic domain and a scroll, or UMD.



Yeah, this isn't as necessary to be banned for the ToS battles, as for 3.5.x. As a wizard, I could easily put an ETF of Summon Elemental Monolith outside a 13th level dungeon, then flood it with spell levels and wipe out the entire dungeon. Its also very useful for Red Wizards and Co.

It's more unbalanced for creatures with <Su> abilities that don't replicate spells, but it is a rather unbalanced spell if used improperly.

On the other side, at really high levels (18-20), it's an effective BBEG tool. Slap one of those down with an ETF of Summon Elemental Monolith, and you have a cost effective patroller. Once you get to those levels, it's not so bad.

Tanaric
2009-12-12, 02:13 PM
After telling myself over and over that my op-fu isn't strong enough to compete, I finally broke down and made a character for this. After seeing some of the crazy stuff you guys can pull off, I have little doubt that I'll get my rear handed to me, but hey, losing can be fun too.

Anyone care for an exhibition against an as of yet unchecked character?

term1nally s1ck
2009-12-12, 02:22 PM
Oh, I've been whipped a few times, don't worry :P

I'm still trying to figure out how to make this particular character strong enough to compete...I think I know a few things I could do, and I'm trying to pick out the ones that would work...my current trick, now I have seen it circumvented, is too situational to be an effective character. I'm gonna re-spec it slightly, but if you feel like a fight after that, i'd be up for it :P

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-12, 04:13 PM
After telling myself over and over that my op-fu isn't strong enough to compete, I finally broke down and made a character for this. After seeing some of the crazy stuff you guys can pull off, I have little doubt that I'll get my rear handed to me, but hey, losing can be fun too.

Anyone care for an exhibition against an as of yet unchecked character?

I'd do a fight. What Tier, approximately, do you want to fight?

Tanaric
2009-12-12, 04:15 PM
Eh, I'm not really sure. I think I might have a chance against your war-marked (that is a war-marked in your match with term1inally, yes?) but I wouldn't place a sizable bet on it. What tier is that character intended to be?

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-12, 04:19 PM
Eh, I'm not really sure. I think I might have a chance against your war-marked (that is a war-marked in your match with term1inally, yes?) but I wouldn't place a sizable bet on it. What tier is that character intended to be?

I'm either Tier 2 or Tier 1.5. If you might have a chance, but it would probably be unfair, you're probably Tier 3. A Tier 3 character is either very versatile, with no real speciality, or an exceptionally good one trick pony. Sound right?

Tanaric
2009-12-12, 04:20 PM
Sounds about right, yeah.

Edit: Although, come to think of it, I might have a slightly better chance against your war-marked than I thought at first. I'll have a shot at that, if only to learn my lesson more quickly. :smalltongue:

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-12, 05:11 PM
Sounds about right, yeah.

Edit: Although, come to think of it, I might have a slightly better chance against your war-marked than I thought at first. I'll have a shot at that, if only to learn my lesson more quickly. :smalltongue:

Would you like to fight another of my less powerful characters? I've been ToSing for over half a year now, and I have ~40 characters. Plus, this way you won't have seen my character before.

Tanaric
2009-12-12, 05:16 PM
Probably better for everyone involved that way, yeah.

My defeat would have been spectacular though. :smalltongue:

Signmaker
2009-12-12, 05:53 PM
After telling myself over and over that my op-fu isn't strong enough to compete, I finally broke down and made a character for this. After seeing some of the crazy stuff you guys can pull off, I have little doubt that I'll get my rear handed to me, but hey, losing can be fun too.

Anyone care for an exhibition against an as of yet unchecked character?

You learn quick, trust me. I was in your boat not all that long ago. In fact, if you want to see short-term exponential growth, take a look at Claudius. In the time he's been a sheet-checker, he's grown pretty darn fast.

I would offer an exhibition, except I don't know what builds of mine are still workable/legal for ToS. I've got the one I used against Olo recently, but that's probably not in the best interest for you to fight. Also, its mechanism has been banned for all practical purposes, so hey.

Tanaric
2009-12-12, 05:55 PM
If it's the same one I'm thinking of, then probably not. I haven't thought of a way to stop disjunction yet. :smallyuk:

Signmaker
2009-12-12, 06:01 PM
If it's the same one I'm thinking of, then probably not. I haven't thought of a way to stop disjunction yet. :smallyuk:

Disjunction is the least of your worries in regards to that build. It's just there to make sure that I'm not caught by a chance immunity.

Tavar
2009-12-12, 06:02 PM
I might be interested in doing this as well, though first, what is "ETF"? I don't recognize that abbreviation.

Tanaric
2009-12-12, 06:04 PM
Energy Transformation Field.

Edit:


Disjunction is the least of your worries in regards to that build. It's just there to make sure that I'm not caught by a chance immunity.

Even better!

Signmaker
2009-12-12, 06:04 PM
I might be interested in doing this as well, though first, what is "ETF"? I don't recognize that abbreviation.

Energy Transformation Field. It's in the SpC. Read it slowly and see how it's AMF, but much much much better.

One of the tricks brought up was keying a 0th level cantrip to it, and then casting a spell. Any spell.

Tavar
2009-12-12, 07:07 PM
Ah, I lack that book. Can anyone describe what the spell seems it's supposed to do, and then what it actually does?

tyckspoon
2009-12-12, 07:09 PM
Ah, I lack that book. Can anyone describe what the spell seems it's supposed to do, and then what it actually does?

It creates a field. This field is keyed to a particular spell. When you cast any other spell in or into the area of that field, it nulls that spell and converts the spell levels used into the keyed spell.

Signmaker
2009-12-12, 07:11 PM
Spells and magical effects created inside the zone (items, creature spells, casting) get absorbed. The appropriate spell levels get tacked on to the zone count. You pick a spell. When the number of spell levels hits the spell level of the spell, the spell is cast within the ETF zone. It's a permanent, fixed, spell, so that means that that area is basically no-cast-city until you Disjunction the field (specifically beating ETF).

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-13, 12:47 AM
There's another caveat. (Su) abilities that don't replicate a spell are also absorbed, granting spell levels equal to the generating creature's HD.

So a hellhound's breath weapon grants spell levels equal to its HD.

Tanaric
2009-12-13, 01:03 AM
Anyone care for an exhibition match to beat up a defenseless little boy and steal his candy? I tweaked my previous attempt a bit, for what good it'll do.

I'll throw in high-pitched screams upon my death to sweeten the deal if you like. :smallwink:

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-13, 01:09 AM
Anyone care for an exhibition match to beat up a defenseless little boy and steal his candy? I tweaked my previous attempt a bit, for what good it'll do.

I'll throw in high-pitched screams upon my death to sweeten the deal if you like. :smallwink:

How about a swordsage? It's an earlier build of mine, so its not nearly as powerful as my current ones. Solidly Tier 3. Lost one fight and won another.

Tanaric
2009-12-13, 01:11 AM
No complaints here. If I die horribly, I'll learn to do better. If not, we'll try again with something newer?

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-13, 01:17 AM
Battle Thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7491504#post7491504).

IthilanorStPete
2009-12-13, 01:21 AM
Go Tanaric! *cheers*

Tanaric
2009-12-13, 03:22 AM
I'd just like to say that Olo steals candy from little kids.

That is all.

Reworked character sheet coming up soon, exhibition matches welcome.

Doc Roc
2009-12-13, 05:01 AM
He has studied in my dojo, training which I offer freely.

Tanaric
2009-12-13, 05:09 AM
Yeah, I've seen what you're capable of. *nods to Fighter vs. Wizard, various other threads*

...I have a few inquiries. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0633.html) Aside from IRC or PMs, what's the best way to snag a word?

Doc Roc
2009-12-13, 05:12 AM
All of my IM information is present, and you can also reach me most of the time in the ToS chat linked in my profile and on the front page.

Tanaric
2009-12-13, 05:14 AM
...Is it bad that I can't find your IM information with a look at your signature and the front page?

*blinks, rubs eyes, checks clock*

I blame the hour. I'm not really this stupid, I swear. :smallfrown:

Edit: Lots of questions answered. Thanks.

Doc Roc
2009-12-13, 04:06 PM
Beastland ferocity, for its part in an appalling combo, and it's painful situation as useless otherwise, has joined our ban list.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-13, 04:53 PM
Beastland ferocity, for its part in an appalling combo, and it's painful situation as useless otherwise, has joined our ban list.

NOOOOO!!!!!

...Ah well, my combo will take more effort. Something beyond 2k gp :smallsigh:

And the combo really isnt that bad, one dispel wipes it out, since the BF is likely at CL 2.

term1nally s1ck
2009-12-13, 05:20 PM
What combo? I'm intrigued....

IthilanorStPete
2009-12-13, 05:22 PM
with Delay Death.

term1nally s1ck
2009-12-13, 05:37 PM
Ok, can see why that's quite good.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-13, 05:43 PM
with Delay Death.

Heh, always one of my favorites.

You get Beastland Ferocity as an Eternal Wand, then cast Delay Death via a scroll. For one turn in buffing, you cannot die before being dispelled.

imperialspectre
2009-12-13, 05:44 PM
I'm quite surprised it hasn't been banned yet, since it's trivially easy to put that up as a persistent, high-CL defense with an Archivist build. I believe JeminiZero's devastatingly awesome builds utilized something like that to make themselves less vulnerable.

Doc Roc
2009-12-13, 06:29 PM
Their trick is more complicated, often revolving around trollshape. But a few of them did use this. I need to make sure it's clear that touch range is not fixed range for purposes of persisting.

Eurus
2009-12-13, 11:00 PM
So, I could have sworn that rebuilding and retraining were both banned, but I can't find anything in the rules actually saying so. I assume that is a no-no, though, right?

Doc Roc
2009-12-13, 11:09 PM
I thought they were banned, they may have been lost. Retraining is allowed only be permission and only in certain cases where a feat has ceased to function due to build choices.

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-13, 11:21 PM
Yup, I retrained once where I created a 14 dex character with a bunch of 13 dex feats... Then took an acquired template that lowered my dex.

Eurus
2009-12-13, 11:32 PM
Yeah, that's what I thought. I don't suppose anyone knows of a way to qualify for Noctumancer at level 3, do they? I'm trying to see if I can make a good Shadow Magic build. :smallbiggrin:

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-13, 11:42 PM
Yup, I retrained once where I created a 14 dex character with a bunch of 13 dex feats... Then took an acquired template that lowered my dex.

then you simply cannot use those feats, because you no longer qualify for them

PhoenixRivers
2009-12-13, 11:44 PM
then you simply cannot use those feats, because you no longer qualify for them

Exactly. Due to a build choice (taking of a template) you no longer qualify for the feats, and thus, they cease to function.


I thought they were banned, they may have been lost. Retraining is allowed only be permission and only in certain cases where a feat has ceased to function due to build choices.

By this, Retraining is allowed.

Eurus
2009-12-14, 01:43 AM
If a Noctumancer switched all of his arcane caster levels for Shadowcaster levels via Creeping Darkness, he would lose all features of the Noctumancer class, right? Since, as I understand it, a prestige class can only advance spellcasting for a class that you have at least one level in, and once you fail to meet the prerequisites for a PrC you lose its features? I think I've heard mention of Noctumancers swapping out all of their Wizard levels for more Shadowcaster, though, so even though I'm fairly certain that doesn't work I figure I might as well ask.

ShneekeyTheLost
2009-12-14, 01:51 AM
Exactly. Due to a build choice (taking of a template) you no longer qualify for the feats, and thus, they cease to function.

Something my Hulk build takes advantage of in reverse. Normally, he's Str 6. But when he Hulks out, suddenly he's got a strength of 42.

IthilanorStPete
2009-12-14, 01:28 PM
Since we're banning Planar Binding, shouldn't we go ahead and Fiendbinder? (from ToM)

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-14, 08:52 PM
Since we're banning Planar Binding, shouldn't we go ahead and Fiendbinder? (from ToM)

:smalltongue:

EDIT: Page 50! Woo-hoo!

Signmaker
2009-12-14, 09:01 PM
Classy, Olo.

Thelas
2009-12-14, 09:07 PM
Here, have the Page 50 Prismatic Cupcakes. The Prismatic Tea is on the side-table.

Doc Roc
2009-12-14, 09:52 PM
Making new thread.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-12-14, 11:03 PM
Classy, Olo.

Why thank you.

*Takes a bow*

Doc Roc
2009-12-14, 11:56 PM
New thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=135097)

Roland St. Jude
2009-12-15, 12:32 AM
Sheriff of Moddingham: This thread has reached the 50 page limit. Please see the new thread linked @^.