The Test of Spite [3.51]

[Doc Roc]

Hello, I am an angry man.
Perhaps you too, are angry? Bitter? Seeking some sort of vindication in a large world spiraling oddly away from you?

Crack open that tube full of dice.
Like the similarly named Test of Might run by the altogether-better-person Akuma, this is a thread about explorations of the further edges of game performance. We will be running a slightly altered rules set, for which I have reserved a post below this one. The crux of the challenge is that you are presented with a dungeon and must navigate through its preliminary challenges to kill each other. I hear this is a popular past-time.


Old thread is here. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=113644)

First, players must survive a 1v1 or 2v2 match against a willing opponent.
Hence the name, test of spite. Your punishment for seeking satisfaction through violence will become apparent thereafter.

Surviving players will be released into the PvP dungeon section which exists as a subset of Ravenloft. There, they must make the necessary allegiances, preparations, or other decisions regarding who they will work with in an effort to reach the center of the arena where they will be tested against each other in mortal combat. The Dark Powers that run this arena are not amused by attempts to throw the game, however, so be prepared for serious OOC bargaining to get your ingame toon eaten by the hounds of tindalos. Naturally, warnings will be provided.

Upon navigation of the dungeon, you will reach the final arena, where matches may be 1v1 or 2v2 as negotiated in game. Victory will register you as the current incumbents, and you may rest before facing the onslaught of other people who complete the dungeon. Three victories allows you to escape Ravenloft, and with it, the arena.


Sign-ups can be done here, but primarily this is a thread for the comments and questions.
Starting level is 13th, with full EWL as per 135 in the DMG.
All WotC books allowed barring contraindication in the rules provided below.
Infinite loops are permitted to trigger precisely once, after which your character will be killed by the hounds of tindalos.
Make sure it was worth it.
Those who get an infinite loop past me during character creation will receive special mention in the halls of honor.
Attempts to use the infinite loop in either the final arena or the starting arena will result in summary consumption by hungry hungry hound dogs, but you will receive a commendation in the halls of honor, though your opponent will be counted as victorious if it is a 1v1.




Submit Your Sheet For Approval (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/sendmessage.php?do=mailmember&u=46222)
Sign Up && Match-Making (http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AodLcxsM7Nx0dFZwQmtxUTNXQllSN2dIX01waElaR 0E&hl=en)
Dungeon Waiting List (http://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AYdLcxsM7Nx0ZGc2NzhibjNfNjBnNnJuY3I2Mg&hl=en)
Map Making (http://home.broadpark.no/~hfled/)


ToS Live Chat (http://www.meebo.com/room/techin/)
Password: dog

[Doc Roc]

Arena Format
There are three major choices involved in the opening arena segment. These are on a match-by-match basis.
|_____________________________________|

First:


You may opt to use the swapping terrain placement schema used by most war-games to generate an arena.
You may opt to have me randomly generate an arena.
You may opt to have a standard and known arena used.

Second:

You may opt to have no buffs active.
You may opt to have all-day buffs active, with All-Day buffs being those with longer than 12 hours duration.
You may opt to have prepared for the encounter in general terms.
You may opt to ask three questions, specific, as per Contact Other Plane, about the opposition, and prepare all-day buffs accordingly. This option is not recommended. It is provided for the sake of completeness.
Third:

You may opt to disallow summons and called or bought creatures.
You may opt to disallow the above during the buff rounds.
You may opt to allow the above during buff rounds and declare the allowance thereof.
Finally:

Each set of opposition may come to a consensus about these options.
You may yield one set of choices at random to the opposition.
You may place your fate in my terrible clutches.



3.51 Rules Updates
The following are the character generation rules for the Test of Spite.
Help with optimization is available. Please do not be intimidated by the list of changes
|_____________________________________|
You begin with 78k XP, sufficient to place your level at 13th.
HP is Max for first level, then average HP.
No Fractional BAB or Saves
Up to 1 Trait and 2 flaws
No Action Points.
No LA above +1.
28 Point buy.

Any XP spent is deducted from your total.
As such, your total class levels will reflect this.
XP will be gained during your stay
LA Buy-off allowed.



3.51 Fix and Ban List

The Great Rules:

Per round, no more than the following is permitted:

Two full round actions Or three full attacks per character
Three Standard actions per character
Three Move actions per character
Two Swift actions per character
Thirty Free actions per character
Immediates count against your maximum of swifts


Per round, no more than the following is permitted per minion, familiar, or companion:

One full round action.
Two Standard actions.
Two Move actions.
One Swift actions.
Ten Free actions.
Immediates count against the maximum of swifts



General :


You may gain membership benefits from only one organization with mechanical benefits. If the organization possesses an Affiliation score mechanic, you are treated as a member of rank two (2).
Aasimar and similarly all native outsiders do not grant weapon proficiencies for the purposes of class qualification.
Rebuilding rules are banned as variants.
Greensnake Naga's telepathy is considered to have a 30 foot range for the purposes of mindsight.
Dragonlance's dragonspawn templates are banned.
Ghostwalk's LA+0 ghost template is banned, unless your opponent is also using it.
Feats, abilities, and other benefits granted by spells or items may not be used to fulfill any qualification requirement. This excludes Psychic Reformation and similar instantaneous effects.
All forms of awaken are banned.
Splitting and similar effects copy only the item, not positive effects currently on it.
Due to the ongoing interference of the Dark Powers, divinely granted templates are not permitted in ravenloft, and all who have them are stripped of them, with the exclusion of saint which they rightly find hilarious.
Undead are not immune to mind-affecting spells.
Kobolds may not qualify for lore-drake.
Dusk Giants do not exist.
Gem Magic, from Magic of Faerun, is banned.
Each character may use only one magical location.
Mention of the sarrukh should be followed by your home address ;)
Shambling mounds do not exist.
You may not order a creature or player to fail a save in any fashion.
Initiate of Mystra is banned. Really. Really. Banned.
Pazuzu does not exist.
You may have one clone, and it must be on Ravenloft. Clones are 14k.
The Far Realms do not exist.
Time Travel is soft-banned, in that where-ever you travel to, the hounds will be there. Temporal regression is permitted, but long chains ( x>2 ) are not. Time hop and similar are permitted.
Faustian Pacts, as described in FCII, are banned.



Source Material


Iron Kingdoms material is allowed on a case by case basis.
Dragon and Dungeon Magazine are banned.
Serpent Kingdoms is approval-only material.
Savage Species is approval-only material.
Stronghold Builder's Guide is banned.



Unearthed Arcana :

The following takes the form of an allow list, rather than a ban list.

Flaws and traits.
Variant classes.
Additional Favored Class feat.
Racial paragons.
I may have forgotten things previously allowed. Please ask if you are curious.



q_____________________________________p

Base Classes :


Fighter is banned, excluding dungeoncrasher.
Erudite is banned.
Domain wizards are banned.
Monk is full-bab.
Unarmed swordsage is legal.
All druids are aspect druids as per UA. In addition, all sources of wild shape are banned.
Swordsages gain adaptive style as a bonus feat at level 4. Swordsages also get 6x skill points at first level, despite it being a clear error. Just too cool to take away.
Clerics are not alignment locked.
All clerics are cloistered clerics.
Artificers may only shuffle bonuses between enhancement, insight, and competence.
1d2 crusaders do not exist.
Archivists are limited to the following sources for spells known at start:
Domain lists, Cleric, Druid, Shugenja, Ranger, Paladin, Healer, Adept.
Other divine casters by permission

Banned:
Runescarred Berserker list
Arcane spells turned into divine scrolls by means not covered or permitted by the above.

Focused specialists do not exist.
All prepared casters start with at minimum one spell scribed per level.
Prepared casters should buy every spell they expect to need. Getting more will be ludicrously difficult.



Prestige Classes :


Subverted Psion is banned.
Ultimate Magus cannot progress the same class twice.
If it would do so at a given level, it offers only one level of progress instead. Consider this to be the general rule in similar cases.
Vermin Lord is banned.
Spelldancer is banned.
Walker in the Wastes is banned
Arcane Archers may use crossbows.
Rainbow Servants are a 8/10 casting class that loses a caster level at first and second.
Planar Shepherd is banned.
Master of Many Forms is impossible to qualify for, or ought to be, and is banned.
Master Transmogrist is impossible to qualify for, or ought to be, and is banned.
Ruby Knight Vindicators may gain only one additional swift action per turn.
Tainted scholar and tainted sorcerer are both banned until a suitable fix is suggested.
Dweomerkeeper is banned.
Cancer mage is banned.
Incantatrix is banned.
Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil's veils duplicate the effect of layers, rather than the effects of the whole spell, and are thus subject to dispelling and AMF. Beyond this, the class is unchanged.



Feats :


Epic feats are banned.
Retraining is not permitted except in extraordinary cases where a feat becomes useless.
Lightning Maces is now banned.
Sanctum Spell does not apply for determining if you can affect a spell with items or spells.
Battle Jump is banned.
Adaptive style refreshes your maneuvers.
Mortalbane does not allow stacking uses. Arcane strike does not allow stacking uses. This should be considered precedent.
Item familiars are banned.
Greenbound Summoning is banned.
Mercantile background is banned.
Uncanny forethought is banned.
Arcane thesis affects only the first applied metamagic.
Leadership, Undead Leadership, Thrallherd, and Dragon Cohort are banned. Similar or derivative effects are also banned.
Legendary locations that grant feats are unilaterally excluded from serving as pre-requisites. You may only use one per character.
Extra spell is not list specific, but may be taken precisely once and with DM approval.
Reserves of Strength is banned.
Rapid-strike is banned.
Craft Contingent Spell has double XP costs, these cannot be reduced, and may produce only three contingent spells at a time. The conditions must be as or more exact than contingency normally requires, but no proofing assistance will be offered.



Spells, Spell-Like Abilities, Maneuvers, and Powers


Teleportation subschool is now part of the evocation school.
Enchantment and Abjuration are now one school.
Polymorph, alter self, metamorphosis, and all derivatives not specifying a single shape are likewise banned.
Genesis is banned.
Metaconcert is banned.
Beastland Ferocity is banned, being useless except in conjunction with delay death.
Wish is replaced in all ways by Miracle.
Forced Dream is banned.
Love's Pain is banned.
Planar Binding and direct derivatives are banned.
Planar Ally and direct derivatives are banned.
Command undead is banned.
Psionic Lion's Charge now has a duration of one round as intended, instead of the ridiculously stupid instantaneous duration it possessed.
Iron Heart Surge is banned pending a re-write.
Mirror Move is banned.
Explosive runes is banned.
Timestop is explicitly banned.
Gate can no longer be used to call or summon.
Energy Transformation Field is banned.
Epic spells are banned.
Leech Ghost Skill is banned.
SLAs are not free of expensive or somatic components.
Embrace\Shun The Dark Chaos is permitted, but cannot be done during character creation. If you can pull it off in the dungeon or the arenas, my commendations await.
Glyph Seals do not accept personal range spells.
There are no free wishes.
Starmantle Cloak and evasion do not stack.
Contingency cannot be cast from a ring of spell storing.
Ice assassin's material components cannot be obviated in any fashion.
Anything you bring in via planar binding or ally cannot leave, and will be incredibly angry about this.
Degenerate-case stacking of consumptive field will result in immediate consumption by the hounds.
Dweomer of Transference only converts spells cast by its caster.
Fusion is banned.
Simulacrum is banned.
Fimbulwinter is banned.
Mindblank and all derivatives are subject to a caster level check at a penalty dependent on available information.
The Locate Cities trick does not work.
Planeshift does not work, as you are trapped in ravenloft.
Contact Other Plane and similar effects that use a consultation with a higher power always reach the Dark Powers instead of the intended target. While ungood, this does not negate the spells.
Acorn of Far Travel is banned.
Celerity's dazing effect cannot be obviated even by immunity.
White Raven Tactics may be used precisely once per battle per player.



Metamagic and Metapsionics


Persistant Spell's range requirements can not be obfuscated by any means, including but not limited to Ocular Spell, Reach spell, or any variant thereof. In the case of exhibition matches, Earthbound spell may be allowed.
Touch range is not a fixed range.
Metamagic costs have a strict minimum value of one, unless the ability specifically reduces them to zero, such as DMM or an alternate cost payment method.
Split psionic ray must have a target for each new ray it ends up producing.
Alert me if you plan to use Linked Power, and explain why.



Magic Items and Crafting


Dust of sneezing and choking is banned.
Items may not be bought at a price reduction. This does not apply to crafting but does prohibit writing a friendly crafter into your backstory, the purchase of partially charged items, the use of curses or item flaws, and similar.
The Ring of the Beast is banned.
Aptitude weapons are banned.
Creation costs are:

(Gold, Exp)= (J*(1/2)*Base_price, K*(1/25)*Base_price)
Where K and J are cost reductions from feats or class features and may go no lower than .65
Custom item creation is not permitted except as per the bonus stacking\slot stacking rules in the MiC. This includes traps.
Custom runestaves, weapons, armor, shields, scrolls, scepters, and full-charged wands are in exception to this rule. Staffs are not.
Psionic items may be customized on an approval-only basis, as some of the rules effectively demand it.
Attempts to get a custom item other than the above exceptions will likely be disapproved, but if you aren't sure, please, ask anyway.
Amulet of second chances is banned.
Thoughtbottle is banned.
Candle of Invocation is not banned, but will get you eaten by the Hounds.
Nightsticks do not stack.
Feathered Wings from Fiend Folio have no associated ill effects, having proved too valuable to the meta-game.
Scrolls of higher than 9th level do not exist.
Amulet of Peace is banned.
Turn attempts or similar from multiples of the same item are considered unnamed bonuses from the same source, and thus do not stack.



Skills :


Caster Level from UMD checks caps at 20 for our purposes.
Diplomancy and its ilk are GM-adjudicated rather than running off the provided tables.
Seduction is banned for reasons of verisimilitude.
Intimidate and its results are not mind-affecting.




Good luck!
Oh and bring a shovel in your inventories.


Submitted Sheets are reviewed by:
Sofawall
T.G. Oskar
Aethernox
IthilanorStPete
Aharon
Aracor
Claudius Maximus

[Doc Roc]

The Hall Of Honor

Vader fell to the ineffably accurate Sheriff of Moddingham.
Phoenix Rivers made Olo go Ni-Infinite on his own face (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6968457#post6968457).
Talic surrendered in the face Sallera's persistence, and fled as the fog claimed Sallera.
Aethernox was struck down by Saph's mastery of the Sublime Way
Yahzi defeated Olo, though many of his skeletons were crushed.
In a rematch, a burst of fire from the downed Olo brought Yahzi to a burning fate.
Imperial Specter conceded after Imhotep collapsed the arena by disintegrating load-bearing columns.
Level 1 sharnian and Olo fought it out, but magic was no match for arrows.
After a slight mishap, Olo faced Memalato and Water Penguin 43 and brought them under his control.
9mm cut down Lv1 Sharnian with swings that he couldn't see.
Olo got block-rocked by Talic's hulking hurler.

Kabol, by Lvl 1 Sharnian was the first character to force a run-time ban.
Alita, by Jemini Zero, keeps getting broken and rebuilt. JZ is commended for forcing three separate run-time bans.
9MM forced a pre-match nerf of splitting.
Shoutz to all the people who helped prove that Spelldancer needed a ban!





Dungeon Entrance, Instance One (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6326126#post6326126)

Dungeon Entrance, Instance Two (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6396497#post6396497)

ToS: The Monkening, a special dungeoncrawl. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116095)



Battles:

Early fights:

Pharaoh's fist and wykydtron VS ozgun92 + melamoto! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114173)

Yahzi Vs. Olo_Demonsbane (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6381627#post6381627)
Talic vs Sallera (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=114175)
Saph vs. Aethernox (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115745)
Ratflail Vs Aethernox (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116261)
Olo Vs Lvl 1 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=116717)
9mm Vs Level 1 Sharnian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117340)
Talic V. Olo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117703)
Saph vs Imperial Spectre (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117315)
Adumbration vs. Imperialspectre. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117753)
Adumbration vs. Ratflail. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115754)


Exhibitions
Claudius Maximus vs imperialspectre (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122876&)
Claudius Maximus vs. JeminiZero (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122296&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Olo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120960&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Olo again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121695&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Milskidasith (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120402&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Milskidasith again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120613&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Master_Rahl22 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123870&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Talic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120575&)
Gaurd Juris vs. imperialspectre (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123281)
Gaurd Juris vs. mikethepoor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123001&)
Milskidasith vs. Talic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120404&)
Milskidasith vs Talic again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120599&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs aethernox (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119337&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. JeminiZero (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119413&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Pharaoh's Fist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123286&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Olo Demonsbane again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119985&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Olo Demonsbane a third time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122378&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Signmakerens (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119279&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Signmakerens again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119963&)
Talic vs. JeminiZero (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119563&)
Saph vs. JeminiZero (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119488&)
Saph vs. aethernox (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118659&)
Olo Versus 9mm, a must read. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6843840#post6843840)
Olo Demonsbane vs. waterpenguin43 vs. Melamoto (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117052&)
Claudius vs. PhoenixRivers (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125362)

Qualifiers
Talic vs. lvl 1 Sharnian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118492&)
Gaurd Juris vs. lvl 1 Sharnian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124199&)



Arena Referees are:
Sofawall
Claudius Maximus


We honor Talic's contributions to the health of the forums. Hail the victorious fallen!

[Test Of Spite]

Announcements [br][br]
The War-Marked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124700) has been released and is permitted for exhibitions.
[br]Monk (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125308) has been released and is permitted provisionally for Exhibitions
[br][br]
We recommend the use of larger maps for tests involving these classes.

[sofawall]

Reserved. Neener neener.

[Olo Demonsbane]

I think we should delete those early battles...or at least put them in a spoiler marked "Early Battles".

But otherwise...wow, we've come a long way since we first started! That was a heck of a long time ago...

My first battle was in July...

[Doc Roc]

We should indeed, and we have indeed. Some intrepid soul should go through and hunt down all the many-many battles from the old thread so I can make outbounds for them. God I was not on the ball for a LONG while there.

[ex cathedra]

Announcements

Preparing to release the War-marked, a fighter replacement, for testing.


ETA? I'm curious.

[Doc Roc]

Hopefully, this time next week for the soft launch. Shoot me an e-mail, and I'll show you the stuff we have so far. There's a lot.

[sofawall]

ETA? I'm curious.

Whenever we get off our collective asses and finish.

I have one thing to do, one, but it'll take me the rest of the week, you watch.

[9mm]

Whenever we get off our collective asses and finish.

We are lazy, aren't we?

[Claudius Maximus]

So why did they let the last thread go to 100+ pages? Did you make an arrangement or something? I doubt they didn't notice it, since it was on the first page 90% of the time and the mods seem pretty vigilant around here.

I barely have the time to check sheets, so I'll pass on collecting the matches. I suggest we separate them into exhibitions and qualifiers when we have them together.

[IthilanorStPete]

I had an idea for how buff rounds work, to deal more generally with the problem of casting big area spells i.e. Control Weather in them - what if you specified that they took place in some other location, before the characters got transported to the arena proper?

[Doc Roc]

So why did they let the last thread go to 100+ pages? Did you make an arrangement or something? I doubt they didn't notice it, since it was on the first page 90% of the time and the mods seem pretty vigilant around here.

I barely have the time to check sheets, so I'll pass on collecting the matches. I suggest we separate them into exhibitions and qualifiers when we have them together.

Apparently, actually, they didn't notice or were remarkably forgiving. The thread did grow ridiculously fast, often four pages a day.

[Claudius Maximus]

Two questions:

Will dungeon instances be made by tier? Will my tier 3 be in the same place that tier 1's and 2's end up in, if he wins his entrance match, or would he be placed with characters of similar power?

Also, I should have asked this before I made a Beguiler, but can I win a match by dominating my opponent? If so, can I take them with me to the dungeon as a minion? I would only get such a minion from my entrance match, of course, since my exhibitions never happened "canonically".

[Doc Roc]

1) I'm still not sure. It looks like actual PvP encounters in the dungeons will be fairly minimal, due to the intense difficulty of staging them fairly.

2) You don't get to keep them. They must die for you to advance.

[Melamoto]

I didn't post again in the previous thread because I felt intimidated by the post count. This feels much better. Could I have another shot at going in? I've only really done practise matches until now, and I reckon I could whip up a character soon.

[Doc Roc]

You are certainly welcome. This is always come-one-come-all.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Woohoo new thread!

I also have 2 questions,

1. Can I voluntarily fail a dispel check?

2. Does casting Suggestion or any of it's line count as a hostile action for activating End to Strife?

[Claudius Maximus]

They must die for you to advance.

This could be a problem, since all my exhibitions ended when I dominated my opponent (the ones I won, that is). Are these victories now invalid?

Also, is there any time limit on a match?

Edit:

Woohoo new thread!

I also have 2 questions,

1. Can I voluntarily fail a dispel check?

2. Does casting Suggestion or any of it's line count as a hostile action for activating End to Strife?

I would say "no" to #1.

#2 is an attack that breaks invisibility, so if we use that as a guideline for End to Strife, you would trigger it.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Does trapping them count as victory? as would occur from Resilient Sphere and other like spells?

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Lol What if I suggest in a friendly tone? Invisibility spell states that a foe is defined by me so RAW, I can just talk in a friendly tone and be acting like it's just a sparring match.

[Claudius Maximus]

I think you're quite aware that he's really your enemy.

While using suggestion to end combat might seem like an appropriate thing to do under End to Strife, the truth is that it's an offensive spell; a mental attack. Thus, using it triggers the spell just as if you were using, say, Dominate Person.

I would say that trapping your opponent won't win you the match. Resilient Sphere especially wouldn't result in a victory: there are many methods of escape, and even if you trap them, they just come out of it alive and well after the duration ends. However, if you used something like Imprisonment, or trapped them in a lethal or permanently inescapable effect, I would be inclined to consider you victorious.

[Human Paragon 3]

Lol What if I suggest in a friendly tone? Invisibility spell states that a foe is defined by me so RAW, I can just talk in a friendly tone and be acting like it's just a sparring match.

muahahaha...

[lvl 1 sharnian]

I was actually thinking about Amber Sarcophagus, preserves for 1 day/ CL, no save, just Ranged Touch Attack

Lol Perhaps a Bluff Check on myself opposed by my Sense Motive Check. It's in my background, he's got split personalities I swear!

[Claudius Maximus]

That's the sort of thing I had in mind when I asked Tide whether there were time limits on the matches. If I dominate my opponent or hit him with a long term incapacitation effect, what's to stop me from camping out and preparing new spells or even making items while they're affected?

At any rate, if there's no time limit, I'd say that you'll just have to deal with him when the spell ends. It would buy you a lot of time to put yourself in an advantageous position, though.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Yep, just start greasing the battlefield and singing Campfire songs till he surrenders

[mikethepoor]

Just out of curiosity, are the hounds actual creatures that can be defeated, or the DM's way of saying "Rocks fall, you die"?

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Hounds can be defeated, but there are an infinite number of them.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Just out of curiosity, are the hounds actual creatures that can be defeated, or the DM's way of saying "Rocks fall, you die"?


Hounds can be defeated, but there are an infinite number of them.

In other words, all of the above.

[IthilanorStPete]

How long does a buff have to last to be able to be cast the day before the match and still be on?

[Claudius Maximus]

36 hours. All-day buffs are 12 hours or more, and these buffs must be cast a whole day before those.

[IthilanorStPete]

Also: Magic of Faerun has the spell Monstrous Regeneration, which grants regeneration - Spell Compendium says to replace it with Greater Vigor, which grants fast healing, and thus isn't functionally identical: can we not use Monstrous Regeneration, then?

[lvl 1 sharnian]

There's already been one character banned for using Monstrous Regeneration, suffice to say, A warforged juggernaut with Monstrous Regeneration is pretty much invincible

[Claudius Maximus]

You can not use the spell, the way I understand it. What happened to Monstrous Regeneration is to my knowledge the closest thing WoTC has done to banning a spell. By RAW, it is no longer a valid spell. Tidesinger may rule otherwise, but I think we're better off without it in any case.

[IthilanorStPete]

I was under the impression that that character got banned for using Dweomerkeeper to make it a Su, non-dispellable ability, not for using Monstrous Regen in the first place.
EDIT: I'd like a direct ruling from Tide on this subject.

[9mm]

for the memory impared:

what books is strongheart halfing and teshlahol-watsit warrior feat?

[Olo Demonsbane]

for the memory impared:

what books is strongheart halfing and teshlahol-watsit warrior feat?

Strongheart halfling is from DMG or one of the Faeurun books.

[Kylarra]

for the memory impared:

what books is strongheart halfing and teshlahol-watsit warrior feat?

FRCS for strongheart halfling and Secrets of Sarlona for Tashalatora

[Doc Roc]

This could be a problem, since all my exhibitions ended when I dominated my opponent (the ones I won, that is). Are these victories now invalid?

Also, is there any time limit on a match?

No, and them dying after domination is trivially easy to engineer. Domination is a save or die in all but name.


I was under the impression that that character got banned for using Dweomerkeeper to make it a Su, non-dispellable ability, not for using Monstrous Regen in the first place.
EDIT: I'd like a direct ruling from Tide on this subject.

Monstrous regen is gone, thanks to the SPC.


In other words, all of the above.

You might more directly recognize them as the ultimate articulation of the paranoid wizard.

[Claudius Maximus]

Tidesinger, what is the policy on letting people redo actions? I'm not talking about "oh, that didn't work? I'll do this instead", but rather a situation in which the player uses an outdated item/spell/whatever or does something illegal that their character would know is utterly impossible. Basically, player error, but not cheating or doing something that's just tactically unsound.

[Doc Roc]

Redo in that situation is permitted. Try to avoid it in qualifiers.

[Claudius Maximus]

It's happening in a qualifier right now, here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124199&page=2). What do you think should be done?

[sofawall]

Hounds can be defeated, but there are an infinite number of them.

And they break the rules of the ToS.

[Doc Roc]

And they break the rules of the ToS.

Not per say. There are a couple of limitations where you get eaten by the hounds, but doing it is technically legal, is all I'm saying.

[Mushroom Ninja]

Two questions:
1) I've already got a Character on the Dungeon Waitlist. Can I submit new characters for arena battles (and if they do well enough, the dungeon)?

2) How long till the next Dungeoneering Instance gets off the ground?

Thanks for the help :smallsmile:

[sofawall]

Not per say. There are a couple of limitations where you get eaten by the hounds, but doing it is technically legal, is all I'm saying.

They break the rules by being them. They aren't in the arena :P

[Doc Roc]

They break the rules by being them. They aren't in the arena :P

I'm prepared to accept that in letter and spirit.

[Signmaker]

Having been given a small hint as to what the hounds may actually be, I'm scared ****less of them. You have to have a really, REALLY good kind of looping strategy if you're going to take them on, or they will exploit the tiniest of weaknesses to utterly rape you.

And there's an infinite (as opposed to NI) amount of them.

[Doc Roc]

Two questions:
1) I've already got a Character on the Dungeon Waitlist. Can I submit new characters for arena battles (and if they do well enough, the dungeon)?

2) How long till the next Dungeoneering Instance gets off the ground?

Thanks for the help :smallsmile:

1) Yes, of course.

2) I don't have time to run them, so they'll start as soon as people can step up to run them.


Having been given a small hint as to what the hounds may actually be, I'm scared ****less of them. You have to have a really, REALLY good kind of looping strategy if you're going to take them on, or they will exploit the tiniest of weaknesses to utterly rape you.

And there's an infinite (as opposed to NI) amount of them.


No discussion of the hounds would be complete with out this link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36GauCQVd4I&feature=player_embedded).

[lvl 1 sharnian]

So what happens if I trap them in an Amber Sarcophagus? Are they just trapped and I get to have near-infinite preparation time?

[Claudius Maximus]

Anybody up for a qualifier match against Xanthias? He's tier 3.

I'd prefer if my opponent was of a similar tier, and not a character whose sheet I personally checked. It would also be nice if the player hadn't seen Xanthias's previous battles.

Tide: If I were to DM, would I still be able to have a character in a dungeon?

[Doc Roc]

So what happens if I trap them in an Amber Sarcophagus? Are they just trapped and I get to have near-infinite preparation time?

How many can you trap?

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Just one person per casting, but it lasts for days/level

[sofawall]

Anybody up for a qualifier match against Xanthias? He's tier 3.

I'd prefer if my opponent was of a similar tier, and not a character whose sheet I personally checked. It would also be nice if the player hadn't seen Xanthias's previous battles.

Tide: If I were to DM, would I still be able to have a character in a dungeon?

I would, but that'd make a small problem... We''d be checking each other's sheets :P

If anyone wants to step up, and hasn't been approved yet, I'll do my best to approve a sheet or two.

[Doc Roc]

Tide: If I were to DM, would I still be able to have a character in a dungeon?

Yes, but it'd be a different dungeon or something along those lines.

[FinalJustice]

Gentlemen, I hope you do not mind in me jumping out of nowhere, but I just gave the rules a quick read on the rules and saw no ban on Celerity. Is that right? I believe people just assumed it was banned, because I have not seen it in use in the few fights I read.

By the way, nice, nice fights. Congratulations on the great thread.

And, by the way#2, has anyone actually tried to take on the hounds? Because it could be very entertaining.

[Doc Roc]

No one yet. Celerity isn't banned. I tend to not ban until things have already been abused once. Part of the challenge was that people were supposed to bring me terrible gifts. :)

Anyone is welcome, this isn't an exclusive endeavor or there wouldn't be flagrant submission links :))

[Claudius Maximus]

I'm up for one last exhibition with my Archivist. Anyone? Tier ~1.5.

Also, any takers on that qualifier match?

Tidesinger:
Do you have a ruling about that thing I PMed you about? The one borne hither by the east wind?

[Signmaker]

I'm up for one last exhibition with my Archivist. Anyone? Tier ~1.5.

Sadly very few of my characters are actually checked sheet-wise, and none of which are able to contend with an archivist.

[Claudius Maximus]

Signmakerens:
Sorry about that... I tend to favor the sheets of new players, and I assumed that you had some approved already. I just realized that I've never checked one of your characters.

If these characters are lower tiered, you wouldn't happen to be interested in a qualifier, would you? If you are, then my procrastination could actually be good, since it means that I have no idea what either of your characters do. Sofawall has volunteered to check the sheet of anyone who wants to fight me.

If you'd rather not, I'll just check your characters as normal.

[sofawall]

Gentlemen, I hope you do not mind in me jumping out of nowhere, but I just gave the rules a quick read on the rules and saw no ban on Celerity. Is that right? I believe people just assumed it was banned, because I have not seen it in use in the few fights I read.

By the way, nice, nice fights. Congratulations on the great thread.

And, by the way#2, has anyone actually tried to take on the hounds? Because it could be very entertaining.

Tide has explained to me what they were. You would be dead in round -4.

[Doc Roc]

I'm up for one last exhibition with my Archivist. Anyone? Tier ~1.5.

Also, any takers on that qualifier match?

Tidesinger:
Do you have a ruling about that thing I PMed you about? The one borne hither by the east wind?


I didn't get it, actually... weird. Resend it?

[FinalJustice]

Tide has explained to me what they were. You would be dead in round -4.

Well, if they are out to get you, might as well die fighting.

If I survive my deadline Sunday, I'll see if I can put one or two characters together. It's been almost a year since I last played 3.5, and I never played PbP, so I will probably get trounced, but eh... might as well die fighting. :)

[Claudius Maximus]

Tidesinger:
You definitely got it; you responded to it. I'm talking about the twinned Synchronicity abuse. I should have just PMed you about it... it's just that my account is nearly full from all the sheet-checking PMs.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Final Justice: I was going to try to take on the hounds, but I got my tactic banned before I could try :smallannoyed:

Timestop, Delayed Blast Fireball, Delayed Blast Fireball, Timestop, DBF, DBF, DBF, Timestop...I could keep it going until I needed to rest for having walked around so much :smalltongue:

[FinalJustice]

Olo:

How would you pull that off? Is casting recursive timestops possible?

[Doc Roc]

Well, if they are out to get you, might as well die fighting.

If I survive my deadline Sunday, I'll see if I can put one or two characters together. It's been almost a year since I last played 3.5, and I never played PbP, so I will probably get trounced, but eh... might as well die fighting. :)

Ain't no shame in a good honest try. I'll help with optimization if you like.

[Doc Roc]

Tidesinger:
You definitely got it; you responded to it. I'm talking about the twinned Synchronicity abuse. I should have just PMed you about it... it's just that my account is nearly full from all the sheet-checking PMs.


I never got around to checking that out.... My impulse would be to ask sofa. His psi-fu is way stronger than mine.

[Claudius Maximus]

I never got around to checking that out.... My impulse would be to ask sofa. His psi-fu is way stronger than mine.


Will do. He should have input anyway, as a DM.

[Signmaker]

Signmakerens:
Sorry about that... I tend to favor the sheets of new players, and I assumed that you had some approved already. I just realized that I've never checked one of your characters.

If these characters are lower tiered, you wouldn't happen to be interested in a qualifier, would you? If you are, then my procrastination could actually be good, since it means that I have no idea what either of your characters do. Sofawall has volunteered to check the sheet of anyone who wants to fight me.

If you'd rather not, I'll just check your characters as normal.

I might be interested in a qualifier, possibly, but few of my characters would be dungeon-capable. I do have a skillmonkey that I'm tossing ideas around for which might be better suited, but a large portion of her fluff was having obnoxiously high sleight of hand checks which accomplish....basically nothing, as per the SRD. She can quite easily lift a man's sheathed weapon and hide it on her person as a standard action, if such things existed in ToS. >>

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Would disintegrating the ground from under a person's feet count as an attack for End of Strife, Gaurd says we're going by invisibility for attack guidelines so would disintegrating under a person's foot count as targeting their area

I think, in light of EoS, I'm gonna try to trap Gaurd in a pit since I can't attack him.

[Human Paragon 3]

To people trying to get matches together above:

I still have an unchecked sheet that I'm really excited about. As soon as I get an OK, I'll be up for some very interesting exhibition matches.

And, if the last time I faced a kobold sorcerer is any indication I should be dead in the ground soon and ready to go.

[Claudius Maximus]

Would disintegrating the ground from under a person's feet count as an attack for End of Strife, Gaurd says we're going by invisibility for attack guidelines so would disintegrating under a person's foot count as targeting their area

I think, in light of EoS, I'm gonna try to trap Gaurd in a pit since I can't attack him.

In my book, it does not count as an attack.

Anyone have any ideas for how to handle the pit? I don't think it allows a save, personally, since I think it's comparable to being teleported over an open space.

Juris: You don't need approval to do exhibitions, unless you intend to use something that specifically requires approval.

Also, what is the expected tier of this character?

[Doc Roc]

Rapidstrike is joining our ban list.

[PinkysBrain]

Just curious ... why?

[Human Paragon 3]

In my book, it does not count as an attack.

Anyone have any ideas for how to handle the pit? I don't think it allows a save, personally, since I think it's comparable to being teleported over an open space.

Juris: You don't need approval to do exhibitions, unless you intend to use something that specifically requires approval.

Also, what is the expected tier of this character?

I'm bad at judging. He has a number of cool tricks, but no spellcasting. I would give him a generous 3.

For what it's worth, I agree with your interpretation of the disintegrate. If I were DM I would probably allow a climb check to grab onto the side, just like if the character were climbing and fell using the slope DC.

So anybody up for an Exhibition vs. my very un-roguelike rogue?

[PinkysBrain]

Anyone have any ideas for how to handle the pit? I don't think it allows a save, personally, since I think it's comparable to being teleported over an open space.
IMO reflex save to step to the side, same as blade barrier ... purely a rule 0 ruling though.

[PhoenixRivers]

ooh, this looks interesting. how do i join?

and why is fighter banned?

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Isn't there a pit trap in the DMG that's similar to falling down a 10 ft pit

[Doc Roc]

ooh, this looks interesting. how do i join?

and why is fighter banned?

Fighter is banned because 3.52, the next major revision we're working on, includes a replacement for fighter more in line with the power of the other classes. You join by rolling up a sheet using say... mythweavers and submitting it using the front-page link.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Fighter is banned because 3.52, the next major revision we're working on, includes a replacement for fighter more in line with the power of the other classes. You join by rolling up a sheet using say... mythweavers and submitting it using the front-page link.I get the impression you have a raging, burning hatred of the Fighter template.

[Doc Roc]

I get the impression you have a raging, burning hatred of the Fighter template.

It's more like a father who has been brutally disappointed by a favored son. One wants to help, but does not know where, one wishes not to fail but does not know how. I have incredibly fond memories of fighters from 2ed. I want that back.

[ex cathedra]

Just curious ... why?

Presumably because, currently, it is too easy to qualify for by PCs (being a feat obviously made for monsters) and it takes several popular builds to power extremes that should be limited (KoS, we're looking at you).

Additionally, there may soon be a simple way to increase one's number of natural attacks, and Rapidstrike won't play nice with it. It's a change for the best, as a whole.

[Doc Roc]

Basically, it's a route by which you can get multiplicative numbers of natural attacks. I'm gradually trying to slice more of the game down to a less explosive growth curve.

[Doc Roc]

Thank you for bearing with me. Many of you trust me pretty extensively, rely indirectly on my judgment. Gentleman, a solution has been proposed to a large number of problems. A number of games do this, and it's so obviously crucial to their balance that I had forgotten it. The same way you might forget ball bearings.


So let's talk. Pull up a chair to my fire-side, and let's talk.


We're adding maximums to the number of actions you can get per round. I know, I know, sort of weird, but think about it. There are too many action excessions that are just too elegant for me to patch them all. Hell, something as simple as the familiar is a thing to invoke in a sane man dread. So what's a matchstick boy to do? Here I am, selling these Penny-Dreadfuls, trying to make it work. And so my bud Sofawall sez to me, Jake, Jake, why don't we cap this stuff? Lay in some proper maximums. And I sez, well that sounds ****ing righteous. And I wracked my brain trying to see what I was missing, why this wasn't there in the first place.

I got nothing guys.
Not a damn thing.

From this moment forward, let the following maximums apply, per player&round:

Two full round actions Or Four full attacks

Three Standard actions
Three Move actions
Two Swift actions
Twenty Five Free actions
Immediates count against your maximum of swifts.

[sofawall]

Sorry, player-who-I-assume-knows-who-he-is. Rest assured you are truly awesome, and you personally forced a DM emergency meeting. It happens less than one might think :P

[Doc Roc]

In fact, it's happened just once.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Does this mean that how many you can obtain such as through RKV or Factotum, or that you can take this many of each action a turn?

Ooh! Did I cause this? Was it the 14 Standard actions from Factotum i got?

[Doc Roc]

Actually it was Eurus's build. It was.... painfully repeatable.

This is a Max, not how many you now get.

[Claudius Maximus]

Does a character normally get 25 free actions? If not, how many do they get? I don't know of any abilities that grant free actions.

Are two full attacks redeemable for a full round action? If so, is the reverse true? Would this apply in all cases, or just for extra actions?

[lvl 1 sharnian]

IIRC free actions are usually unlimited in number, but most free action spells or abilities add the Only Once per Round clause to prevent abuse.

[Doc Roc]

Yes, there are some exceptions. This is there just for convenience, and 25 is the suggested cap on free actions. It also limits, in theory, how much damage you can do to yourself by talking while affected by streamers.

;)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Yes, there are some exceptions. This is there just for convenience, and 25 is the suggested cap on free actions. It also limits, in theory, how much damage you can do to yourself by talking while affected by streamers.

;)

Such as the Gnomish Quickrazor, which can be used in conjunction with Pandemonic Silver and Control Winds to produce a DC 25 fear effect an arbitrary number of times per round until everything on the board not immune to fear is cowering.

Or the Chicken-Infested War Mind5 and Great Cleave with a Magic Component Pouch to produce an arbitrary number of attacks in one round.

[Signmaker]

Aww, 25 free actions really hurts my bard. =/

Quick Drawers, revolt!

[mikethepoor]

It also kills FoI factotums.

[Signmaker]

It also kills FoI factotums.

I hear silence where complaints should be audible. :smallamused:

[Doc Roc]

FoI Factotums suffer more from the standard action limit.

[mikethepoor]

I'll just have to find a way to kill my opponents in three standard actions, then. Or make a build that, y'know, doesn't care about the limit because one is all he'll ever need.

[Signmaker]

So throwers are essentially limited to 25 attacks, if they don't want to be taunting their enemies?

[Claudius Maximus]

So are there any takers on either my tier 3 qualifier match or upper tier exhibition match offers?

[Doc Roc]

So throwers are essentially limited to 25 attacks, if they don't want to be taunting their enemies?

:: hums intently ::
I'll go add quickdraw as an exception.

[IthilanorStPete]

Tide: How do you rule Nar Demonbinder works with Ultimate Magus/Mystic Theurge?

[Doc Roc]

Arcane, spontaneous. How do you mean?

[IthilanorStPete]

I mean, can you go Wizard 7/Nar 1/UM 5 and advance both Wizard and Nar from UM?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

:: hums intently ::
I'll go add quickdraw as an exception.

Beware the Pandemonic silver, my son
the blade that goes snicker-snack...

Then again, by the time you hit 13, you've probably got some kind of immunity to fear effects, so it likely won't be as big an issue as all that.

I do take it that Chicken-Infested is right out, though?

[Doc Roc]

Dragon material, all of which is banned for ridiculous idiocy.

Exception removed, cap pushed to 30.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Dragon material, all of which is banned for ridiculous idiocy.

Exception removed, cap pushed to 30.

Thought Pandemoniac Silver was Lords of Madness... and the Gnomish Quickrazor was in Races of Stone...

That does nix Chicken-Infested, though.

[Doc Roc]

I meant chicken-infested. Which seems to come up with painful regularity around here.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I meant chicken-infested. Which seems to come up with painful regularity around here.

So they still have the ability to use Pandemonic Silver Gnomish Quickrazor + some form of wind (doesn't really matter what kind) to cause <whatever your cap on free actions is> number of will saves. Stastically, if that number is greater than 20, then odds are good that this will end any encounter with anything not immune to sonic mind-affecting fear effects. Granted, at CR 13, the list of things immune to that is large and growing rapidly, but going PvP, unless opponent has some immunity to mind-affecting, this can be an auto-win button just as surely as anything a Wizard can come up with.

[PhoenixRivers]

where exactly is aspect druid? unearthed arcana?

edit: and could i choose a different variant, so long as it removes wild shape?

[Eurus]

Sorry, player-who-I-assume-knows-who-he-is. Rest assured you are truly awesome, and you personally forced a DM emergency meeting. It happens less than one might think :P

*Takes a bow*

Never honestly expected it to get through. Synchronicity really is an incredibly poorly-thought-out power... As is the Celerity line, for that matter.

Out of curiosity, is that an "any" cap or an "all" cap? As in, can you have two full-rounds, three standards, three moves and two swifts each round?

[Doc Roc]

where exactly is aspect druid? unearthed arcana?

edit: and could i choose a different variant, so long as it removes wild shape?

Run it by me, and there's a good chance the answer is yes.


Out of curiosity, is that an "any" cap or an "all" cap? As in, can you have two full-rounds, three standards, three moves and two swifts each round?



It's an all cap. :)

[Signmaker]

Run it by me, and there's a good chance the answer is yes.

Except Aspect of the Dragon, which is infinitely cooler than the given aspects.

[Signmaker]

So they still have the ability to use Pandemonic Silver Gnomish Quickrazor + some form of wind (doesn't really matter what kind) to cause <whatever your cap on free actions is> number of will saves. Stastically, if that number is greater than 20, then odds are good that this will end any encounter with anything not immune to sonic mind-affecting fear effects. Granted, at CR 13, the list of things immune to that is large and growing rapidly, but going PvP, unless opponent has some immunity to mind-affecting, this can be an auto-win button just as surely as anything a Wizard can come up with.

Um.

I thought that the quickrazor description entailed that the draw-sheathe action was as part of an attack routine, and while free, thus limited to your attacks.


Stowing the weapon after attacking with it in this fashion is a free action.

[Eurus]

It's an all cap. :)

Nice. Hypothetically, could one accumulate six standard actions but convert three of them to move actions, or can you simply not get any more after reaching the cap? Or, to put it another way, is it a limitation on how many you can get, or how many you can use?

Also, based on your comment about familiars, are we to assume that these limits apply to both you and any sort of familiar, companion or psicrystal you may have as well (so in total, you and your familiar could only use three standard actions)?

[Doc Roc]

The issue is that there, I'm not sure. I don't want to allow familiars, psicrystals, and friends a free lunch.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

The issue is that there, I'm not sure. I don't want to allow familiars, psicrystals, and friends a free lunch.Maybe allow a Familiar etc 2 more turns worth of actions. So the pet is a tangible benefit, but a limited one.

[Doc Roc]

I may limit all non-characters such as minions, companions, familiars, and crystalz to one standard/move/swift||immediate/full-rounder, IE, the intended.

[sofawall]

I support that limit.

[Claudius Maximus]

Me too, for what it's worth.

[Doc Roc]

A lot, frankly. :)

[Human Paragon 3]

Claudius:

I'd be happy to take on your high tier character with my medium tier. I think he has just enough tricks up his sleeve to make it a good fight. But I'm away for the weekend. If you're not in a duel by Sunday, let's plan on it?

[Claudius Maximus]

That sounds just fine to me.

[sofawall]

So, that means I'm checking that character? Which one am I checking? Or did Claudius Maximus already check it?

[Human Paragon 3]

It has not been checked. It's called the rose knight. I sent it to the main email service.

[PhoenixRivers]

woo! i sent my guy in for approval... now i guess it's waitin' time, lol.

[Draz74]

Does it count against the limit of two swift/immediate actions when you, for example, use a Counter maneuver while under the effects of the Stance of Alacrity?

By a strict reading it shouldn't ... and I think this is a good example of something that should let you "exceed" (or bypass) the limit. But it's still a good thing to clarify.

I.e., if a hypothetical ability somewhere, instead of saying "you may take an extra standard action," said, "you may make an attack without using up an action," would that still count against one's limits?

Also, does Schism count against your limits of Standard Actions?

[Doc Roc]

Schism does, the stance example does not.

[Claudius Maximus]

In accordance with Tidesinger's earlier request, I have collected as many ToS battles as I have been able to find. I have included links, so just quote it and edit the text into the third post.

Exhibitions
Claudius Maximus vs imperialspectre (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122876&)
Claudius Maximus vs. JeminiZero (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122296&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Olo (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120960&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Olo again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=121695&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Milskidasith (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120402&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Milskidasith again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120613&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Master_Rahl22 (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123870&)
Claudius Maximus vs. Talic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120575&)
Gaurd Juris vs. imperialspectre (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123281)
Gaurd Juris vs. mikethepoor (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123001&)
Milskidasith vs. Talic (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120404&)
Milskidasith vs Talic again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=120599&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs aethernox (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119337&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. JeminiZero (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119413&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Pharaoh's Fist (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123286&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Olo Demonsbane again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119985&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Olo Demonsbane a third time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=122378&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Signmakerens (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119279&)
lvl 1 Sharnian vs. Signmakerens again (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119963&)
Talic vs. JeminiZero (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119563&)
Saph vs. JeminiZero (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=119488&)
Saph vs. aethernox (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118659&)
Olo Demonsbane vs. waterpenguin43 vs. Melamoto (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117052&)
Qualifiers
Talic vs. lvl 1 Sharnian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118492&)
Gaurd Juris vs. lvl 1 Sharnian (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124199&)
I intentionally left out those matches already on the first page. I don't think I have a full list here, so if anyone has had a match and can not find it here, please contribute it to the list. Also, I didn't realize how many matches I have had. I'm second only to lvl 1 Sharnian.

[Doc Roc]

You sir, are some sort of Bodhisattva.

[Doc Roc]

The war-marked (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6912157#post6912157) is now provisionally legal for exhibition matches. Relevant Deistic Demiurge of choice help us all.

[Signmaker]

I've had a good three or four exhibitions with Olo, I'll grab the links when I'm not as out of it. Just got back from...stuff.

[Adumbration]

Aww, none of my matches are there. Give me a second to locate them.

EDIT:

Adumbration vs. Imperialspectre. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=117753)
Adumbration vs. Ratflail. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115754)

[Olo Demonsbane]

Yeah...I had at least 10 matches not on there....I had a freakin lot of fights...

[Doc Roc]

Find 'em, I'll post them in. We've..... Had a LOT of matches, haven't we?

[PhoenixRivers]

blah. i'm bored. i think i'll make a 2nd tos character, and stuff.

[Doc Roc]

I would, naturally, approve of this.

[Doc Roc]

Edits to the action caps have been completed. Minions, companions, and familiars are now limited to two standard actions, one full round, one move, and one swift per turn.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Just idly curious, but what tier would a CW Samurai6/Telepath7 be?I'm mostly making this for grins and giggles, but hey... I'd like to see if he's as incompetent in D&D as he is in his native environment.

[Olo Demonsbane]

I read the whole Warmarked class and marks, and they sound really awesome! Im planning on making one either today or tommorow.

EDIT: Are Bloodlines allowed?

[Doc Roc]

Just idly curious, but what tier would a CW Samurai6/Telepath7 be?I'm mostly making this for grins and giggles, but hey... I'd like to see if he's as incompetent in D&D as he is in his native environment.

I think we'd need the 48th mersenne prime for that.


I read the whole Warmarked class and marks, and they sound really awesome! Im planning on making one either today or tommorow.

EDIT: Are Bloodlines allowed?

No. You have to eat your character sheet if you use bloodlines. Then the hounds eat your character.

[Claudius Maximus]

I was going to make a Warmaked too, but I realized to my horror that I had 3 times as much work to do than I thought. So don't expect too much from me today as I scramble to finish it all.

Tide: You messed up your copy and paste job for Adumbration's matches.

Shneeky: That character belongs in a lower tier.

[Doc Roc]

Tide: You messed up your copy and paste job for Adumbration's matches.

Shneeky: That character belongs in a lower tier.

Fixed, and it does. It's gonna be mad as all get out, but it's ridiculously hard to make a telepath truly bad.

[sofawall]

I read the whole Warmarked class and marks, and they sound really awesome! Im planning on making one either today or tommorow.

EDIT: Are Bloodlines allowed?


Bloodlines:
Any character sheet containing bloodlines or bloodline levels must be eaten by the player. Twice. -Sofa 8/8/09 11:51 PM
Three if they were a Bloodline Storm Blade -William H. West 8/10/09 1:43 PM

Seems fairly explicit :P

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I think we'd need the 48th mersenne prime for that.



No. You have to eat your character sheet if you use bloodlines. Then the hounds eat your character.

If there was a way to have a constant 3rd level Power active, without needing either Telepath or PsiWar, I'd go straight CW Samurai with maybe a single-level dip in Barbarian (no, not pouncing either)

[Pharaoh's Fist]

If you want an exhibition match, you may find that the rules would be more lenient in your favor.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

If you want an exhibition match, you may find that the rules would be more lenient in your favor.

Does forcing an opponent to retreat off the board count as a win?

Also, is there a way to get Fast Healing psionically or with an item?

[Olo Demonsbane]

Can you believe that there are NO disciplines that include spear or longspear as a favored weapon? I ask you...

Shneeky: If they run away, I think either the match continues/you get a rematch, depending on the type of arena you have.

[Doc Roc]

Olo is correct.

There is no case where bloodlines are allowed. Their only purpose is a couple of really ridiculous exploits.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Such as doing a Reshar at ECL 13 :smalltongue:

I feel so satisfied when I can do so many interesting tricks and have 12 feats left...I love the warmarked...

They feel like they combine the Totemist and the Warblade, two of my favorite classes.

EDIT: Tide/DMs Extended Reach from SS, yeah or nay?

[Doc Roc]

Hopefully, they aren't too broken... :S

[Olo Demonsbane]

Well, we cant tell until they're playtested!

[Doc Roc]

:: the sound of a thousand catgirls whimpering::

[T.G. Oskar]

After some long and winded time, I've finally returned to sheet-checking!

The first victim patient test subject competitor has already been checked. There's a few things I need said person to check before approving, but it's a pretty decent concept.

To Tide:
Said person used the druid alternate class features from UA that replace the armor and shield proficiencies of the druid, as well as the wildshape ability, for the AC/fast movement of the monk and the tracking skills/favored enemy of the ranger. Since all druids are aspect druids, which is technically a Wild Shape variant, is it ok to replace that ability with the ACF, or does the replacement goes only with regular wild shape?

To Tide + DMs
Encumbrance by weight by wealth: if the character hasn't spent all of its wealth, and has no explanation as to how the wealth was spent (which would default to holding the wealth in its persona), would the encumbrance kick in?

Also, what would you say about the druid sect initiate feats? I incline towards not blending, since those feats are from distinct druid sects. Reason I do this is because the checked individual has the Ashbound and Child of Winter feats, which hold no restrictions by RAW but the fluff basically prevents a druid from taking most of them, even if the two only have the requirement of spontaneously casting Summon Nature's Ally.

[Doc Roc]

1) Explicitly okayed. His build is weak enough that it's not an issue.

2) Please direct said encumbered individual to speak with me.

3) We have no standing ruling against that.

[Claudius Maximus]

If we pay for the appropriate spellcasting service, can we get permanent spells cast on us at character creation? What about shorter duration spells? If so, at what point is it too short to be bought and still be active at the beginning of a battle?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

How does the Metamind's Free Manifesting interact with Augmentation, as far as a limit of PP able to be spent on one power?

The ability specifically and explicitly says it only pays for the base manifestation cost, not augmentation. However, it doesn't say if the points you don't have to spend count to the maximum PP you can spend on a given power.

Thus, if I use Free Manifestation on a power, as a 13th level Manifester (say I had the feat Practiced Manifester to have a Manifester Level equal to my HD despite the lost manifester levels), can I then spend the full 13 PP on augmentations, or do I have to count the 'free' points as a part of that 13 PP 'cap'?

I have a very cheezy combo I'm looking at doing for Shinji Ikari, but I'm wanting a ruling on this before I implement anything

[Fishy]

Character finished, submitted, and in all likelihood about to be completely slaughtered. Woo!

[Olo Demonsbane]

Tide/DMs Do Steel-tipped arrows count as steel weapons for the purpose of the Disciple of Disapater?

[Doc Roc]

But, really?
No.

[Olo Demonsbane]

Well, of course, I can do it better with melee, I just thought it would be more fun...

[PhoenixRivers]

1) Explicitly okayed. His build is weak enough that it's not an issue.


ouch! i hope, at least, to make a competitive showing.

[Doc Roc]

ouch! i hope, at least, to make a competitive showing.

What I mean is that it's within the tier 2-4 range I consider acceptable for extraordinary requests.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Well, I think I've figured out a decent combo with the CW Samurai... only problem is that it doesn't fit the theme I had originally intended. He is quite scary, though. And with the ToS rule that Intimidate is no longer mind-affecting, can be surprisingly effective at being scary. After all, when you can do nothing but run away, you can't be blasting him down. Granted, it may not be the most effective guy on the block, but at least he could probably hold his own 1v1, and maybe even in a 2v2 situation.

However, I have a skeletal build dubbed Shinji Ikari which is a Tier 2-3 build involving a lot of PsiWar. He's still pretty ineffective until I find a way to boost his attack, though.

[Adumbration]

I would like to request approval for Savage Species material, namely:
Feats Improved Scent and Uncanny scent. Would you believe that these are for a spellcaster?

I'm making a 3rd character for ToS now. It's turning out to be the most complex so far. My apologies for the one going to check it, it just turned out that way. :smallamused:

[Doc Roc]

Accepted, Ad'.

[Adumbration]

Is Arms&Equipment guide a valid source? I couldn't find anything about it in the first posts.

EDIT: Nevermind. Character is complete, and I managed to spend all the gold even without the A&EG. Submitted for approval through the first post email.

[Doc Roc]

Exxxxxxxxxxcellent. :)

A&EG is valid, naturally. Stupid, heavily errata'd, but valid.

[Signmaker]

A&EG is valid, naturally. Stupid, heavily errata'd, but valid.

There has been very little other than sheer force of will keeping me from making a burrowable battletank for combat. That flies. Somehow.

[Human Paragon 3]

Back in town. Claudius, if you're still up for that exhibition, I'm ready to go.

[Claudius Maximus]

I'm ready when you are.

Here's a thread, in an easily copied and pasted form for Tide:

Claudius Maximus vs. Gaurd Juris (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124885)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Character Submitted

[Adumbration]

Out of curiosity - with the email system these days, how do you announce that the character sheet has been approved? Email? PM? Something else? It's just that I don't check my email very often, so it would be nice to know if that's the medium. :smallsmile:

[Claudius Maximus]

I'll generally pm you over the forum when I'm done. If you wish to be notified by another means, you should specify.

[Adumbration]

I'm checking you character right now. I'll generally pm you over the forum when I'm done. If you wish to be notified by another means, you should specify.

Nah, pm is the best method for me, at least. Good luck with it, I know it's a bit complicated - perhaps unnecessarily, partially. It's funny what you can get when you start with a sub-optimal prestige class, and then build it backwards up to at least (hopefully) moderately powerful build.

[Claudius Maximus]

I was actually mistaken about your identity; I'm not checking your character now. It's next in line, but don't expect a pm for little while.

[Adumbration]

I was actually mistaken about your identity; I'm not checking your character now. It's next in line, but don't expect a pm for little while.

No hurry, really. I wasn't really expecting to give it a run for a few weeks due to real life (army) stuff, so if there's some more urgent ones on the line, feel free to check those first.

[imperialspectre]

Claudius - current match rules question:

The Spell Turning/Spell Theft rules interaction occurred in a previous match between myself and Olo. Tidesinger ruled that Spell Turning makes Spell Theft fully reverse, with the target able to steal spells if s/he wishes.

Didn't post in the current fight thread, because I didn't want to disrupt things, but you may wish to check with Tidesinger re: that precedent.

[Claudius Maximus]

imperialspectre:

Thank you for pointing that out. I don't see any reason why it would or should work that way, but I can't gainsay Tidesinger, especially for my own benefit. I offered Gaurd Juris the opportunity to roll back and handle it Tidesinger's way.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

So, who wants a go? I think I've ironed out all the kinks in this character (waiting on Claudis's final say-so) and want to test him out to see if he is as ineffective as I think he's going to be.

After the current match ends, of course.

[sofawall]

Hmm, there is a book with some stuff in it that would be hilarious to use, and really should be banned, but isn't.

I may make my first ToS character just to use the book.

EDIT: Now everyone is going to try to find what book Tide missed :P

[Pharaoh's Fist]

So, who wants a go? I think I've ironed out all the kinks in this character (waiting on Claudis's final say-so) and want to test him out to see if he is as ineffective as I think he's going to be.

After the current match ends, of course.

Sure, let's go.

[lvl 1 sharnian]

Hedge Wizard?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Sure, let's go.

Sure thing. You'll probably curb-stomp me, but I'm game.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Prepare to meet the dwarvish might of Fistbeard Beardfist.

You may set up the arena however you choose.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Prepare to meet the dwarvish might of Fistbeard Beardfist.

You may set up the arena however you choose.

The Dwarf of Dwarves will meet Shinji Ikari (http://members.tripod.com/~f_babes/shinji09.jpg), the most Emo human alive!

I'm not particularly familiar with how to set an arena up, so feel free to do so.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Ok. Do you want to do the regular map, or a more exciting one?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Ok. Do you want to do the regular map, or a more exciting one?

Doesn't much matter to me. Regular map works.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Here you go. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124914)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

How many buff rounds?

[sofawall]

Move match discussion to the match thread, please.

Also, I've managed to put together a character that is nigh-invulnerable, but has no offense to speak of. I can hit you with rocks...

Well, attrition and all that. I may make myself slightly more vulnerable for the ability to hurt the enemy.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

How many buff rounds?

How about one?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

How about one?

Sure.

Psssst... you won initiative. You go first. Let's take this to the match thread and see who whups up on who

[PhoenixRivers]

I'll be here all night. I'm still waiting on final approval, but I do believe I've got all the kinks outta the little guy.

[Human Paragon 3]

Need a ruling over in an exhibition match, and couldn't find the FAQ thread. Looks like it got unstickied.

Anyway, the situation is thus. I have the spell reflection class feature, quoted below:


Benefit: You gain the supernatural
ability to reflect
magical attacks back on their
caster. If an enemy misses with a spell
or spell-like ability aimed at you, you can
use an immediate action to redirect the effect
back at its originator. The spell or ability
attacks the original caster (who makes a new attack roll using
the same modifier as the original attack). If it hits, the caster
is subject to the normal effect of the spell or ability.
For example, if a 3rd-level wizard missed you with a scorching
ray, you could use an immediate action to redirect the ray
back to the wizard. The wizard would immediately make a
new ranged attack roll (using the same modifier) against his
own touch AC; if the attack succeeds, the scorching ray deals
its normal damage to the wizard.
This effect applies only to spells and spell-like abilities that
require an attack roll. Other spells and spell-like abilities that
affect a target aren't subject to this reflection.
If a single spell or ability misses you more than once
at the same time (such as scorching ray cast by a high-level
caster), you can redirect each portion of the spell that
missed. Using the example above, if you were missed by
two of the three rays from an 11th-level wizard's scorching
ray spell, you could redirect only those two rays (but not
the one that hit).

I was targeted with a Streamers spell, and triggered it by taking an action. All 4 streamers missed. I think they should be reflected back onto the caster because it was a spell aimed at me that required an attack roll and missed. But Streamers are a bit weird so Claudius Maximus and I both want a fresh pair of eyes to look that over and make sure it's right.

Thanks!

[Doc Roc]

Streamers is most similar to Howling Chain or other things that create weapon-like objects. I'm not really sure how this interacts. :: hums intently ::

[PhoenixRivers]

By the explicit text, the ability can reflect non-ranged spells, as well, provided they miss. Blindness/deafness, for example. (not sure if the literal interpretation will be adopted here, though. That's for judges to decide)

It makes no distinction between ranged and melee, referencing any attack roll. The examples used seem to indicate that touch attacks are included in this.

That said, it bounces spells and spell like abilities. If the spell creates an object that later hits, does it count? For example, would it send a spiritual weapon flying back at the caster? That's the question that needs to be answered.

Even more indirectly, if someone created a bolt with a low level spell, and fired it, would it be reflected? In the previous example, the attack/ability to attack was made by direction of the spell (Spiritual Hammer spell listing gives it the ability to attack). In the first example and the bolt example, they are not. While you CAN make a touch attack with blindness/deafness, you also may hold the charge. In the second, the spell creates a bolt, and again, you must choose to use it.

My opinion on the matter is if the spell specifically requires an attack roll be made, as part of the spell (as scorching ray does), then it can be reflected.

For example, Spiritual Hammer need not attack. The Bolt that's created need not be used. You don't need to deliver a blindness spell. But if casting the spell forces the attack roll to be made at the time of casting, then the spell would "require an attack roll".

That'd be my take on it.

[FinalJustice]

I'm starting to plan my character, but I could use some clarifications/ruling on some tactics I intend to use, can a DM (Tide) take a look at these?

Please, only DMs read this:

1- Runestaves:
- If my character cannot craft, am I still able to get custom Runestaves, say, from a friendly Artificer?
- IIRC, as I am far from my books, the Runestaff rules mention you attune when preparing/meditating, and you need to reattune if you want to use another one. In this case, can I attune to a runestaff, cast long duration buffs and then reattune to another runestaff I keep with my person.
- Does Vestige Metamagic, from the Anima Mage, work with Runestaves? (I assume it does, but just to be sure)

2- Spellblade
- Does a Runestaff count as a quarterstaff for enchanting purposes? And can I enchant both sides of said quarterstaff as +1 Spellblade weapons? Can't have enough defenses against casters :P
(Spellblade, IIRC, is in Player's Guide to Faerun)

3- Extraordinary Spell Aim + Antimagic Field
- Is it kosher?
- Does it work against Streamers? I believe they have nowhere to *exist* around my character to attack him, but I'm not sure.
- If someone attacks me with a weapon, are the magic properties of their weapon suppressed?
- Will I get eaten by the houds for this? :P



Thanks in advance.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I am almost done with my CW Samurai build.

I'm listing him at Tier 2, possibly even Tier 1.5 if my theory is as good in practice as it is in my head.

He has nothing but CW Samurai levels. And I would pit him up against anything just short of a Tippy/Cindy build, in ToS.

If this works, I have just created the scariest CW Samurai in the history of D&D

[FinalJustice]

If this works, four to five internets are in order. And cookies. And cake. I am seriously rooting for you now.

[Kurald Galain]

I am almost done with my CW Samurai build.

I'm listing him at Tier 2, possibly even Tier 1.5 if my theory is as good in practice as it is in my head.

That proves that I'm a future psychic...

[ShneekeyTheLost]

CW Samurai build has been submitted.

Let's see if I'm a genius or a fool...

[PhoenixRivers]

I am almost done with my CW Samurai build.

I'm listing him at Tier 2, possibly even Tier 1.5 if my theory is as good in practice as it is in my head.

He has nothing but CW Samurai levels. And I would pit him up against anything just short of a Tippy/Cindy build, in ToS.

If this works, I have just created the scariest CW Samurai in the history of D&D

I'll put him through his paces, if you like... I'm finishing up a character myself.

[PhoenixRivers]

Question. The per-turn action caps... What effects do those apply to?

I know they apply to things like the RKV action abuse, Celerity, Shadowpouncers, and the like...

What about effects such as Time Stop and Temporal Acceleration? These effects actually give you extra rounds. Do actions taken in those rounds count against a single per round cap, or is each round granted seperate?

For example... I activate a Devotion, then I draw and use a scroll to cast Time Stop, and get 4 rounds. (Swift Action, Move Action, Standard Action)

Round 1: I cast Fly, Swift, Haste, and Move.
Round 2: I cast Protection from Evil, Move, and use a devotion.
Round 3: I cast Resistance, Superior, Move, and use a devotion.
Round 4: I use a devotion, move, and ready an action.

Now, I've used 5 swift actions, 5 standard actions, and 5 move actions. Do they count as spread over 5 rounds, or all in 1?

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Question. The per-turn action caps... What effects do those apply to?

I know they apply to things like the RKV action abuse, Celerity, Shadowpouncers, and the like...

What about effects such as Time Stop and Temporal Acceleration? These effects actually give you extra rounds. Do actions taken in those rounds count against a single per round cap, or is each round granted seperate?

For example... I activate a Devotion, then I draw and use a scroll to cast Time Stop, and get 4 rounds. (Swift Action, Move Action, Standard Action)

Round 1: I cast Fly, Swift, Haste, and Move.
Round 2: I cast Protection from Evil, Move, and use a devotion.
Round 3: I cast Resistance, Superior, Move, and use a devotion.
Round 4: I use a devotion, move, and ready an action.

Now, I've used 5 swift actions, 5 standard actions, and 5 move actions. Do they count as spread over 5 rounds, or all in 1?Time Stop is banned. Probably for that reason.

[Arakune]

What about temporal acceleration?

[PhoenixRivers]

Time Stop is banned. Probably for that reason.

The spell used was an example. There are many effects that provide an extra round or two, and not all of which are banned. I'd like a consensus on the interaction of such effects with the per-turn caps.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

The spell used was an example. There are many effects that provide an extra round or two, and not all of which are banned. I'd like a consensus on the interaction of such effects with the per-turn caps.

All actions which occur in one round of objective time count towards the action cap for that turn.

Thus using Temporal Acceleration to gain five turns would still be hitting the action cap for that turn, because objectively, all actions occurred within one round.

That is one of the primary reasons (other than RKV/Factorum/Hustle Shuffle abuse) why the action caps were put into place.

[PhoenixRivers]

All actions which occur in one round of objective time count towards the action cap for that turn.

Thus using Temporal Acceleration to gain five turns would still be hitting the action cap for that turn, because objectively, all actions occurred within one round.

That is one of the primary reasons (other than RKV/Factorum/Hustle Shuffle abuse) why the action caps were put into place.

No offense, but I'm looking more for a ruling than to debate stances and opinions. To that extent, I'd like to have an official answer from one of the Test of Spite DM's, on this.

When you start messing with time, everything is subjective. The difference between speeding up your own time and taking 2 rounds of actions, and sending your opponent forward in time via another power 2 rounds, and taking two rounds of actions... well, it's rather academic. Temporal Acceleration is built for much shorter time hops (a 15th level manifester can get a 2 round TA. 19th level manifester can get a 3 round.)

Basically, the two points of view are either:

a round is a round, and when you take your extra rounds, they're each distinct and seperate (and typically limited by the "your opponent can't be affected by anything you do while under the effects of this")...

Or that they're in the spirit of extra-action granting abilities, and count against the static round.

I'd like an actual ruling on the matter before I chalk it up as dealt with.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

No offense, but I'm looking more for a ruling than to debate stances and opinions. To that extent, I'd like to have an official answer from one of the Test of Spite DM's, on this.

When you start messing with time, everything is subjective. The difference between speeding up your own time and taking 2 rounds of actions, and sending your opponent forward in time via another power 2 rounds, and taking two rounds of actions... well, it's rather academic. Temporal Acceleration is built for much shorter time hops (a 15th level manifester can get a 2 round TA. 19th level manifester can get a 3 round.)

Basically, the two points of view are either:

a round is a round, and when you take your extra rounds, they're each distinct and seperate (and typically limited by the "your opponent can't be affected by anything you do while under the effects of this")...

Or that they're in the spirit of extra-action granting abilities, and count against the static round.

I'd like an actual ruling on the matter before I chalk it up as dealt with.

By all means, I am eager to hear the official ruling on this as well. I think I broke someone's brain, though, by submitting my CW Samurai build, so it could take a while. Something about a logic bomb crashing Reality's compiler, I think.

[Human Paragon 3]

Any DMs care to weigh in on the spell reflection question?

[Claudius Maximus]

My opinion on the matter is that you can't reflect them. My reasons are similar to those of PheonixRivers. I don't think it would reflect a spiritual weapon or a magically created bolt or a summoned monster. I can't see it reflecting melee touch attacks either.

I don't feel comfortable making a ruling when I'm personally affected, though, so would another DM weigh in?

[Human Paragon 3]

I see what you're saying, but I think this spell is different then the ones you listed. If it were the same as a summoned monster or a bolt, you wouldn't be able to maximize it.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I see what you're saying, but I think this spell is different then the ones you listed. If it were the same as a summoned monster or a bolt, you wouldn't be able to maximize it.
Does it allow SR in the spell description? That's a pretty big indicator of 'is it physical or magical when it comes at me' that might help narrow it down a bit.

[Human Paragon 3]

It allows SR.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

It allows SR.

Then, offhand, I'd say it can be reflected.

Keep in mind, you aren't reflecting the touch, you are redirecting the magical energy the touch carries. Consider, if you will, a Taser. You aren't stopping the Taser from touching you, you are redirecting the electrical current to go back up the handle and shock the user instead.

[sofawall]

I vote for reflecting.

Also, I'd really love to have a go at that CW Samurai. I'm making a character that I can have done by tonight, and might be checked, even. No clue on the tier (Tide isn't sure either) but it's hard enough to kill to put it at 1.5 or 2, I'd say.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Tide, your Fighter vs Animal match thread needs a map.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I vote for reflecting.

Also, I'd really love to have a go at that CW Samurai. I'm making a character that I can have done by tonight, and might be checked, even. No clue on the tier (Tide isn't sure either) but it's hard enough to kill to put it at 1.5 or 2, I'd say.

Hard to kill is good. In fact, that is one of two possible counters for my CW Samurai, as currently written. I had an idea to make him much nastier, but it would have required a one-level dip in another class, which wouldn't have had near the bragging rights as a straight CW Samurai would have.

Pharaoh's Fist has first dibs on him. Then whomever wants a crack at him. It'll be a good test of my strategy.

I still haven't gotten anything back from the Sheet Checkers or GM's concerning my character, though. Still seeing if the technique I am using is valid, I guess.

[sofawall]

I would check him (I want to see him played) but, alas, if I want to fight him, checking him would not be a good idea.

Just a warning, if you need LoE or LoS to use Intimidate, I am likely not going to be a good match for you.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I would check him (I want to see him played) but, alas, if I want to fight him, checking him would not be a good idea.

Just a warning, if you need LoE or LoS to use Intimidate, I am likely not going to be a good match for you.

As long as you are within 30' and you can see me...

But yes, that is one of the weak points of this build. Being a mundane class, he has no counters to magic stuff. Basically, if he can lock you up, you loose. If you can kill him before he locks you up, you win.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I'll be using this (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=29946) variant.

I'm torn between the three combat focus feats and ubercharging.

[sofawall]

As long as you are within 30' and you can see me...

But yes, that is one of the weak points of this build. Being a mundane class, he has no counters to magic stuff. Basically, if he can lock you up, you loose. If you can kill him before he locks you up, you win.

Seeing me might be tricky. I intend to fight without every seeing my opponent. My opponent, hopefully, will likewise never see me.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'll be using this (http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/profiler/view_char.php?cid=29946) variant.

I'm torn between the three combat focus feats and ubercharging.

And here (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=153726) is Takahashi no Onisan.

Honestly, he would be much better off with a one-level dip in Warlock for better damage output and permanent see invis. But hey, the point is to see if I can make the most worthless class in the game viable.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

Let's meet up in the old thread.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Let's meet up in the old thread.

Let's make a new one. This is going to be made of Epic and... something. People will be linking this thread all over the place, either as the guy who was stupid enough to play CW Samurai, or the guy who pulled off CW Samurai, I still don't know.

Also, I will not be able to start for an hour or so, I have thing which must be done RL.

[Pharaoh's Fist]

I need information on how Dive Bombing works. It's in Heroes of Battle. Can anyone tell me?

[sofawall]

You know, I wouldn't feel too bad about a Warlock going on a CW Samurai. I mean, Warlock is better than a Samurai, but it's still a Warlock.

If possible, I'd like to fight a Warlock variant. Would be interesting. This thing I'm most curious about is how a one dip of warlock makes you deal MORe damage... Eldritch Glaive Power Attack, by any chance?

[ShneekeyTheLost]

You know, I wouldn't feel too bad about a Warlock going on a CW Samurai. I mean, Warlock is better than a Samurai, but it's still a Warlock.

If possible, I'd like to fight a Warlock variant. Would be interesting. This thing I'm most curious about is how a one dip of warlock makes you deal MORe damage... Eldritch Glaive Power Attack, by any chance?

Nah, Eldritch Glaive is a full-round action to use. If it was a Standard action, then that would have been much better. EB + Greater Chaucible of Fell Power. Onisan doesn't have much damage output, he just locks you down so you are incapable of doing anything while he spends the next fifteen or twenty rounds slowly whittling away your HP until you die. Also easier to hit with, by virtue of being a touch attack. 'Lock dip version has See the Unseen for See Invis and Darkvision, making it somewhat easier to find opponents.

[Tiki Snakes]

Nah, Eldritch Glaive is a full-round action to use. If it was a Standard action, then that would have been much better. EB + Greater Chaucible of Fell Power. Onisan doesn't have much damage output, he just locks you down so you are incapable of doing anything while he spends the next fifteen or twenty rounds slowly whittling away your HP until you die. Also easier to hit with, by virtue of being a touch attack. 'Lock dip version has See the Unseen for See Invis and Darkvision, making it somewhat easier to find opponents.

Sounds pretty risky, frankly.
Will be interesting. Or breif. :)

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Sounds pretty risky, frankly.
Will be interesting. Or breif. :)

Yea, this build is similar to a 'glass cannon' in that he has an unstoppable 'win' button... but needs to be able to be in a situation to press it. Basically, if you can keep him from finding you before you kill him, you win. Otherwise, he wins. It's really that simple.

[Claudius Maximus]

I'd like a definitive ruling about the Streamers reflection from Tide.

I think Streamers should not be reflected unless you also allow spells like Spiritual Weapon and Spiritjaws to be reflected. I think the spell creates the streamers which, while spell effects, make their own attacks. Thus, I do not miss with them; they themselves miss. On a related note, I now doubt that Streamers can be maximized.

Also, I don't think SR is a good judge of what can and can not be reflected. An Orb of force should be reflectable, which does not allow for SR. I don't think that touch spells should be reflectable, and many of those do allow for SR.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

I'd like a definitive ruling about the Streamers reflection from Tide.

I think Streamers should not be reflected unless you also allow spells like Spiritual Weapon and Spiritjaws to be reflected. I think the spell creates the streamers which, while spell effects, make their own attacks. Thus, I do not miss with them; they themselves miss. On a related note, I now doubt that Streamers can be maximized.

Also, I don't think SR is a good judge of what can and can not be reflected. An Orb of force should be reflectable, which does not allow for SR. I don't think that touch spells should be reflectable, and many of those do allow for SR.

I think an Orb spell should be reflected by a Reflect Missiles effect rather than a Reflect Magic effect, although I still feel that an Orb of Force should allow SR due to the force itself being magical in nature.

How does a spell which summons items which then attack you allow SR? That's like trying to say summoned monsters or Mordicain's Sword allows SR... this spell sounds very confusing, where is it from?

[Claudius Maximus]

Mordenkainen's Sword, Spiritual Weapon and Spiritjaws all allow for SR. Generally, resisting such spells once makes them unable to hit your for the whole duration.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Mordenkainen's Sword, Spiritual Weapon and Spiritjaws all allow for SR. Generally, resisting such spells once makes them unable to hit your for the whole duration.

Does Streamers target someone, or does it summon Streamers which then targets someone?

If you cast a spell ON someone, they get to reflect. If your spell summons something then then attacks you, then you can't reflect the magic, as it has already been cast.

[Claudius Maximus]

This spell seriously needs a rewrite. I can't even answer that question definitively. My impression is that it's the latter, since the spell doesn't have a target line, but you do need to decide who they're going after, which is kind of targety.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

This spell seriously needs a rewrite. I can't even answer that question definitively. My impression is that it's the latter, since the spell doesn't have a target line, but you do need to decide who they're going after, which is kind of targety.

Well of course you are going to be able to control your summoned minions, what good would they be otherwise? That would be saying Summon Monster I is a targeted spell because your summoned minion targets whomever you tell it to.

I agree, the wording is too vague. We need Tide to come in and render final judgment on this

[Milskidasith]

What's the Psionic/Magic transparency for the Test of Spite? I was considering rolling up a psion.

[Human Paragon 3]

Streamers is the most poorly worded spell I have ever read. I think the whole thing needs to be re-written for the ToS, considering how popular a spell choice it is.

And as worded, spell reflection definitely would bounce back an orb of force. Streamers I'm not so sure about, could go either way, but I'm hoping Tide doesn't overrule Sofa's judgment because if he does I'm probably dead.

[9mm]

I finally got around to it... Slade is now ToS legal again.

Now to finish John; plus build Boomer and Serge...

*whimper*

[Olo Demonsbane]

Hey, I already played an intimidator...he could auto beat most anything that wasnt immune to fear. Accordingly, he won one, lost one :smalltongue:

My Warmarked is almost done, I just have to give her 3 more feats.

And when I finnally wanted to use rapidstrike, on my 3rd character with natural weapons...:smallmad:

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Hey, I already played an intimidator...he could auto beat most anything that wasnt immune to fear. Accordingly, he won one, lost one :smalltongue:If you didn't have levels in Dread Witch, then it's your own fault. That's basically the best support for fear-based builds out there.

[imperialspectre]

His was a barbarian build.

[Claudius Maximus]

Gaurd Juris:
I'm going to check your character soon. Could you unbuff him? He's still got the buffs from our match.

[Fishy]

His was a barbarian build.

So? Bard/Barbarian/Dread Witch/RAGE MAGE!

[Human Paragon 3]

CM:

All unbuffed and ready to go.

Olo:

How did you get the cowering effect on that barbarian, by the way? Intimidating rage itself only goes up to shaken, but you obviously were able to boost it.

[Sstoopidtallkid]

Out of idle curiosity, why is Greenbound Summoning banned? It doesn't seem as broken as the rest of the banned stuff, especially since lvl 11 is where it falls behind.

[Doc Roc]

Finally ruling on Streamers is that they are not reflected, as the intent was to create attacking objects. They will get a rewrite to reflect this.

Current rewrite list is:

IHS
Streamers

[Doc Roc]

Out of idle curiosity, why is Greenbound Summoning banned? It doesn't seem as broken as the rest of the banned stuff, especially since lvl 11 is where it falls behind.

It's banned because the ToS 3.51 set is pretty widely used beyond just this level. Also, I've seen it and it's really still pretty awful at 13th. That said, Rashemi Elemental Summoning may be ending up there with it soon enough.