Dragoon

[SartheKobold]

Building a fighter with Leap Attack (CAd) and I was wondering: Can you make a Jump check while flying? Can you fail a jump check while flying? Does the whole movement count as a 60ft Jump? Does it depend on my maneuverability?

A group consensus would be appreciated...

[sofawall]

I confess to not knowing what you mean past the first two questions.

And yes, technically, and hilariously, you can jump while flying.

[AslanCross]

Yes to the first two questions. I'd think the end result would be something like a quick divebomb, but in any case the rules don't really cover your questions.

3. I assume you mean either flight under the influence of a fly spell being ended by a jump onto a grounded opponent, or moving twice without really jumping. In the first case, yes. In the second case, it's not really a jump but a dive.

4. Maneuverability ratings only talk about a creature's ability to turn, climb or dive. The simplest way of stating it is that the worse a creature's maneuverability, the more speed they consume when they have to do any of the three.

Due to the presence of Jumping and the thread's title, I assume you're referring to the Final Fantasy jumping dragoon. Apart from Leap Attack (which requires a charge and as such is not always an option), might I suggest that you take a look at the Tiger Claw school from the Tome of Battle. It has attacks that literally are "jump into the air, land on opponent, deal more damage" that do not require charges.

[lord_khaine]

It also contains buff thats gives a +10/20 (cant quite recall) competence bonus to jump checks, as well as a ability that lets you make a jump check as a free action.

[AslanCross]

It also contains buff thats gives a +10/20 (cant quite recall) competence bonus to jump checks, as well as a ability that lets you make a jump check as a free action.

The first is Leaping Dragon Stance, which gives a +10 enhancement bonus on the distance you Jump, and also considers all Jumps made as running jumps (which is very helpful considering the doubled DCs from non-running jumps). The second is Sudden Leap, which is a Swift Action.

[daggaz]

Rule 0 of common sense: jumping is caused by exerting a force against the ground or other object, causing you to leap into the air, where you are helplessly under the full control of gravity plus your initial velocity. Can you jump in midair? NO. Why not? A) You arent pushing off some solid object and B) you are not helpless in midair, as you are in fact just flying.

End result, jumping when flying just means you are still flying. Its not jumping. DM's who blindly follow rules like this simply because wotc fails to outline everything deserve players who crush the economy by making ten foot poles out of ladders in order to buy continual use rings of truestrike.

That said, would I allow leap attack while flying? Yes. It would be an auto success check. You are ultimately doing the same thing, which is gaining some altitude and using gravity (or the power of your flight, same difference) to power a physical charge at the enemy. Mechanically as well, there is no reason whatsoever to gimp a meleer simply because he overcame his mobility handicaps.

[woodenbandman]

For help with this: http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2462.0

It'll give you details on playing this sort of character.

[SartheKobold]

I don't think my GM would let me use ToB, since he doesn't have a copy, and can't easily get one on Iraq. I've looked it over and when I make the final build, it'll certainly use Tiger Claw, but as it stands I only have access to Core and the Complete Series...

The way I saw the issue was creatures with a climb speed can still make climb checks, and that a fly speed could be thought of as a massive, continuous jump... Then I thought it would just be silly to fail a jump check while flying, so I included the thought...

The Fly source is most likely going to be Winged Boots, so it would function, indeed, as the fly spell.

[PinkysBrain]

Any chance your DM would let you get a custom item of Air Walk? It's a bit more appropriate for a leap attacker than flying.

[SartheKobold]

Any chance your DM would let you get a custom item of Air Walk? It's a bit more appropriate for a leap attacker than flying.

Possibly... If I have the Cleric craft it, it could be an economical boost... I assume you mean Wind Walk...

As for woodenbandman, where do I find Battle Jump? I gathered Roof-Jumper is in Cityscape, but Battle Jump? Also, what is Pounce from? It's a Barbarian Substitution Level, right? UA?

[PinkysBrain]

Wind walk turns you into a cloud. This is the one :

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/airWalk.htm

[Ernir]

Possibly... If I have the Cleric craft it, it could be an economical boost... I assume you mean Wind Walk...

As for woodenbandman, where do I find Battle Jump? I gathered Roof-Jumper is in Cityscape, but Battle Jump? Also, what is Pounce from? It's a Barbarian Substitution Level, right? UA?

Battle Jump is in Unapprochable East. (Don't own the book, though, so you are on your own when it comes to googling the full description.)

Pounce is a Special Ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#pounce). The Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian substitution level in Complete Champion grants it. 1st level, replaces fast movement.

[Tengu_temp]

Battle Jump is in Unapprochable East. (Don't own the book, though, so you are on your own when it comes to googling the full description.)


Here you go. (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Battle_Jump,all) Doesn't look as if it was doing any good here, though - it requires dropping from a ledge above.

[Eldariel]

Here you go. (http://realmshelps.dandello.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Battle_Jump,all) Doesn't look as if it was doing any good here, though - it requires dropping from a ledge above.

No - it's just an example. The relevant part is:
"You can execute a charge by simply dropping from a height of at least 5 feet above your opponent."

Which you can do by jumping above your opponent, for example. That or dropping from flight or such.

"You can't jump from more than 30 feet above your opponent, nor can you effectively battle jump while under the influence of a fly or levitate spell or effect, as you have to hurl yourself down on your foe."

is annoying, but works with Air Walk just fine.

[Fizban]

I'm not sure, but this could work unless your DM vetoes it:

Charge and jump with leap attack, then using a fly speed take a dive with a two handed piercing weapon. This should give you 3:1 power attack before doubling your whole attack, assuming it's allowed (it's easier to get a glide speed, but dives specifically come from a fly speed. If you DM allows one he might allow the other).

Then of course there's the standard Battle Jump, which would normally require a pretty heavy jump check (you need 4*(opponent's height +5)), but if you can add the enhancement bonus to distance from the Tiger Claw stances to your height (I'm making a high jump-> the height is enhanced) then you're golden.

For me the biggest problem with trying to make a Dragoon/Lancer type character is that they really aren't all that special: it's just Leap Attack with a spear/lance. The only way to distinguish them is by using Battle Jump, a regional setting specific feat (though not unreasonable to allow for everyone), and then optimizing your jump check out the wazoo. I prefer using a dive attack, since it doubles damage with a piercing weapon, and thus works best with lances, but to do that from a jump you need somewhat questionable rulings. Either way the net effect is paying a feat or feat equivalent racial ability for glide+ high jump checks= double damage on charge.

[SartheKobold]

Okay... Build insofar is...

Race: Human
Weapon: Glaive (Adamantine, for Sundering, Reach)

FTR1- Power Attack (1st), Comba Reflexes (Ftr1), Run (Human)
FTR2- Fleet-of-Foot (Ftr2)
FTR3- Hold the Line (3rd)
FTR4- Improved Sunder (Ftr4)
FTR5- -Dead Level-
FTR6- Leap Attack (6th), Combat Brute (Ftr6)
FTR7- -Dead Level-

Offense Plan
Charge/Leap Attack for -5 PA/+15Dmg (Leap Attack 3:1 Conversion)
If Opponent remains within 5FS: Full Attack for -5 PA/+15Dmg (Combat Brute's Momentum Swing 3:1 Conversion)
If Opponent withdraws 10+ft: Charge/Leap Attack for -5PA/+25Dmg (Leap Attack + Momentum Swing 5:1 Conversion)

Defense Plan
Ready Action to take 5ft Step backwards after AoOs should foe attempt to cross Glaive-Line.
If Charged, Hold the Line grants AoO against charging foe. Use AoO to attempt to Sunder Foe's weapon (If Armed, of course). If Sunder successful, gain second AoO and use as-normal.
If approached, target trying to leave threatened square provokes AoO. Use AoO to attempt to Sunder Foe's weapon (As above). If Sunder successful, gain second AoO and use as-normal.
If Armed Target is in reach, attempt to Sunder Foe's weapon. If successful, gain second AoO and use as-normal.
If Unarmed-Target is in reach, Full Attack at normal value.

This is the standard, mind you. Each case will be different, so this isn't slaved to...

For a straight-classed Fighter with no ToB, this is a pretty solid melee offense/defense in my opinion, but it still has gaping holes. Unarmed/Monks, Tumblers, Ranged... There's a feat from an issue of Dragon Magazine that presented pole-arm feats like the Arrow-Blocker Spinning Defense. Anyone have the details, or barring that, suggestions to shore up the defense? That Dead FTR7 doesn't sit well with me, so any other classes to dip? Prestige?

[nefele]

Rule 0 of common sense: jumping is caused by exerting a force against the ground or other object, causing you to leap into the air, where you are helplessly under the full control of gravity plus your initial velocity. Can you jump in midair? NO. Why not? A) You arent pushing off some solid object and B) you are not helpless in midair, as you are in fact just flying.
This. It all comes down to DM judgement, but... This.

That said, would I allow leap attack while flying? Yes. It would be an auto success check. You are ultimately doing the same thing, which is gaining some altitude and using gravity (or the power of your flight, same difference) to power a physical charge at the enemy.
Leap Attack, yes, I agree - because it's a horizontal jump, and it makes perfect sense. But other methods are murkier. Battle Jump specifically precludes flying. And there are some Tiger Claw maneuvers that require a vertical jump.

Personally, I would allow vertical jumps while flying only under certain conditions. If you have a fly speed of 10 ft and clumsy maneuverability, then it stands to reason that you couldn't pull it off. On the other hand, if you have a fly speed of 80 ft and perfect maneuverability, you'll succeed no matter what. So where do we draw the line?

First of all, if your maneuverability is less than Good, then I'd say it's impossible. If your "up angle" is less than 90°, then you simply can't jump vertically while flying. (I'd accept arguments for 60° instead of 90°, but this is exactly where aerial movement becomes needlessly complicated. :smalltongue:)

Other than that, it all boils down to movement, I'd say. The whole point of Maneuverability is determining how many squares of movement you lose for changing direction in midair. Jumping vertically does exactly that. So if the character has enough movement to pull it off, taking into account speed and maneuverability, then sure, it works. But not by default.

[golentan]

Rule 0 of common sense: jumping is caused by exerting a force against the ground or other object, causing you to leap into the air, where you are helplessly under the full control of gravity plus your initial velocity. Can you jump in midair? NO. Why not? A) You arent pushing off some solid object and B) you are not helpless in midair, as you are in fact just flying.

I feel obliged to point out that with an approximately +110 balance modifier (tough but within theoretical limits) you can actually walk and thus ideally JUMP IN MIDAIR. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/skills.htm#balance)

I want to build a wuxia ToB build with this now...

But yeah, almost all of this is DM's Judgement, and when flying under your own power I'd generally rule no.

[woodenbandman]

It's not even required that you use tome of battle to do all of this. I'm having fun just fine with a Stalwart Battle Sorceror 4. Effectively a d12 hit die from all the bonuses, and proficient in the lance. My total jump modifier when I cast Jump and Expeditious retreat is + 38, allowing me to take 10 and jump 12 feet straight up (I have leap of the heavens). My post is actually the last one in that link.

For a level 7 build, here is what I recommend:

Kalashtar Stalwart, Battle sorceror 5/Fighter2 (into Abjurant Champion next level). You have no flaws, which makes it harder, but let's see what we can do.

Feats:

Fighter1 Battle Jump, Up the Walls. Anywhere there are walls, you're there, scoring double damage.
Fighter2: Power Attack. Score more damage
Sorceror1: Spells! Jump and Expeditious Retreat, for mad jump skills even without the walls. Your jump mod is astronomical. Feat: Versatile Spellcaster (more uses of your good spells) OR Leap of Heavens (Jump while standing still with no penalty). Your choice.
Sorceror 2-4: Nothing different at all. You have a limited number per day and you have no new spells known. Feat at level 6 is your choice. I recommend leap attack.
Sorceror5: You get new spells this time. This is your proudest moment. May I suggest Wraithstrike?

Despite sounding weak, you get 1d8+2+con modifier hit points per level as a stalwart battle sorceror. And medium BAB. So you'll be a pretty bad dude. I suggest you work towards spring attack, which will allow you to spring away after the battle jump.