PDA

View Full Version : D&D Wiki has forked



Surgo
2009-09-08, 09:15 AM
Some of you may have known of the older D&D Wiki, http://www.dandwiki.com. Some of you may have even used it. Most of us who were regulars there, including all of the active administrators, have had apparently unresolvable conflicts with the owner of said site, and after being told to do so have taken our toys to make a new playground.

We are all well aware that one of the reasons that people were leery of the old D&D Wiki was its complete lack of quality control. When creating the new wiki, we have attempted to change that (in fact, it's built right into our mission statement) -- we have attempted to double-check all the pages brought over for quality and balance, the idea being that you can pick something right up and use it in your game based on what else you allow in your game. (If you're wondering what most of our stuff is balanced around, we're fans of the Tome series.) One of the projects we're working on right now that will finish shortly (just have to do it for 4e too yet...ugh) is
balance tags -- a tag on each that essentially says "this page should be fine to include in your campaign if {this WotC-published thing} is already included". Hopefully, all the pages should be tagged before long.

We're still working out all the kinks. Navigation pages are currently bugged, and will be until next week when Wikia fixes our installation of Semantic MediaWiki. However, the categories at least work for browsing things, and people are welcome to upload what they want to upload. (We're also sick of having to delay our 'grand opening' until every last kink is worked out.) We might be new, but we already have a strong and well-sized community. We are mostly 3.5e, but we have some 4e content as well. So come check us out: http://dungeons.wikia.com. Hopefully you'll find our material useful.

Myou
2009-09-08, 09:53 AM
From my perspective as someone who just uses the site for the SRD, how is yours better?

Surgo
2009-09-08, 09:58 AM
If you just use it for the SRD, it's probably about the same (and both are inferior to d20srd.org, which is sometimes known as the greatest site known to man). However, in a week or so, the search system will be unimaginably better than the old wiki's, and that includes searching the SRD.

The only benefits I can offer are for those who want to use the homebrew and those who want to contribute, which respectively are a very high signal-to-noise ratio and ease of inclusion in campaigns, and an administrative staff that won't randomly go crazy on you or put down arbitrary and puzzling restrictions.

Zeta Kai
2009-09-08, 09:59 AM
Well, amen for that. This is good news, as far as I see it. I checked out the D&D Wiki, saw some cool stuff, but was repulsed by the heaps of ludicrously unbalanced crap. Seriously, somethings looked like somebody just said "But I absolutely have to play a race that can fly at 1st level. With no LA. What's your problem?" or "Challenge Rating for a monster with an at-will Disintegrate SLA? Hmmm, I think CR2 is fine. Yeah, that's good." :smallyuk:

Because of madness like that, I never posted any of my stuff there. But hearing that a new community of quality-minded people are starting up & getting to work brings a smile to my face. I'm very glad that someone is standing up & taking the reins. I think that it will be good for the community at-large.

So, what happens now to the old busted wiki? Is the site owner just left with an empty forum & a kingdom of one? Or are there still people left behind, trying to pick up the pieces?

Surgo
2009-09-08, 10:01 AM
I can't promise that the signal to noise ratio will be infinite, or that some stuff won't slip through the cracks, but I'll be damned if myself and the administrative staff doesn't try extremely hard to make it perfect.


So, what happens now to the old busted wiki? Is the site owner just left with an empty forum & a kingdom of one?
This pretty much nails it. {Scrubbed}

Leeham
2009-09-08, 10:03 AM
Fantastic! I'm always wary of including things my players have picked up from there.

Lappy9000
2009-09-08, 11:23 AM
Ah, marvelous! I've gotten some ideas from going over there before, but you need to use a fine-toothed comb to find the good stuff.

I noticed you've ported a lot of stuff over, and it looks fine at a glance. Best of luck making the wiki a success!

Zeta Kai
2009-09-08, 11:30 AM
In case you haven't noticed yet, we support good homebrew here. The critics are sometimes a bit harsh, but they tend to back up their statements with facts & figures, which is priceless. If you need something balanced, run it by the 'brewers here, & they'll find any chinks in your armor.

Random832
2009-09-08, 11:35 AM
So are you taking suggestions for how your copy of the SRD is organized, or are you pretty much happy with the way it was on D&DWiki?

I'm a bit worried about the CC-BY-SA - just because you've already got two licenses (OGL, and existing GFDL material) that are not only incompatible with each other but also CC-BY-SA is incompatible with both. Do you allow a choice of license for new content that is posted?

Actually... it's not clear that OGL content is allowed on Wikia at all http://www.wikia.com/wiki/Wikia:Licensing

KeresM
2009-09-08, 11:39 AM
I used to have my campaign world there, but after seeing how much glurge was on that site, I made my own domain and requested they delete my stuff. Which they still haven't done. Oh well.

Surgo
2009-09-08, 12:07 PM
Licensing stuff
This is a very important issue, so let me clear the air. Licenses being incompatible only means you can't include stuff from one license in something that's another license, and you can't make a derivative work licensed under the different license. However, nothing is stopping you from displaying two works under two different, incompatible licenses on the same website, which is what we're doing here.

Here's the summary of licensing on the new wiki:
* OGL stuff. It is clearly marked as such. The SRD and UA was OGL, as was their formatting (which was a derivative work). It is included on our wiki and clearly marked as OGL.
* GFDL stuff. The only GFDL stuff is the templates made before a certain, marked date shown on the page called Licensing. These items are marked as GFDL on that page, and as far as I can tell there is absolutely no violation here. We hope to eventually recreate the templates in a clean room fashion so we can get rid of anything left on the site that says "GFDL" but right now other concerns take priority.
* CC-BY-SA stuff -- this is everything else. Everything brought from the old wiki was brought by the individual authors who made the stuff, who all were quite happy to relicense it under the CC-BY-SA license. This is perfectly legal, as the authors retain copyright to their work and are able to release it under any license they choose.

The important thing to note here is that part on Wikia:Licensing that says "Except where otherwise specified" -- which is exactly what we have done. All new posted content is placed under CC-BY-SA unless it's OGL. We strongly discourage anyone from using the GFDL, which was not written with the idea of wikis in mind.


So are you taking suggestions for how your copy of the SRD is organized, or are you pretty much happy with the way it was on D&DWiki?
I would be more than happy to re-organize it into a better fashion. I really hate this "for players / for DMs" dichotomy the old wiki had going on and am taking steps to remove it wherever I see it.


In case you haven't noticed yet, we support good homebrew here. The critics are sometimes a bit harsh, but they tend to back up their statements with facts & figures, which is priceless. If you need something balanced, run it by the 'brewers here, & they'll find any chinks in your armor.
As much as I appreciate the offer, I want to note that most of my administrators are also very good at balance (especially around the F&K Tome series). I may, however, refer people here if they want critiques -- I rarely have the time right now to give full balance opinions, my time mostly being taken up on the administrative aspects of getting the whole thing working.

What I would find neat, though, is if people uploaded stuff from here (with permission if they aren't the author, obviously) that they thought was high-quality. My goal here is to make a comprehensive and well indexed one-stop site for D&D homebrew.


I used to have my campaign world there, but after seeing how much glurge was on that site, I made my own domain and requested they delete my stuff. Which they still haven't done. Oh well.
Not only has the owner outright refused to delete the stuff of myself and other authors who have moved off the old wiki (understandable, as we make up the entirety of worthwhile content on that wiki), he has removed authorship information from those pages (a violation of the GFDL).

arguskos
2009-09-08, 12:29 PM
Aww, I'm saddened to hear that you finally split off and are having a spot of trouble getting things up and running. I'll be frequenting the new page though, and may or may not add a touch of my own work to it as it comes together.

Out of curiosity, how much of the content of the prior Wiki belongs to your staff (basically, how much do I need to copy from that Wiki)?

Surgo
2009-09-08, 12:33 PM
Everything that belonged to our new userbase has already been copied. At this point the only thing we're waiting for is Wikia itself to fix a bug in our system...

Glad to hear that you're thinking of adding stuff and frequenting.

arguskos
2009-09-08, 12:36 PM
Ah, alright then. I'll need to save myself quite a few spells then!

Perhaps I'll fill out your spell section more.... :smallamused:

Myou
2009-09-08, 12:48 PM
If you just use it for the SRD, it's probably about the same (and both are inferior to d20srd.org, which is sometimes known as the greatest site known to man). However, in a week or so, the search system will be unimaginably better than the old wiki's, and that includes searching the SRD.

The only benefits I can offer are for those who want to use the homebrew and those who want to contribute, which respectively are a very high signal-to-noise ratio and ease of inclusion in campaigns, and an administrative staff that won't randomly go crazy on you or put down arbitrary and puzzling restrictions.

d20srd.org is too bulky and seems to have something against decent layouts. :smallyuk:

DragoonWraith
2009-09-08, 01:23 PM
d20srd.org is too bulky and seems to have something against decent layouts. :smallyuk:
d20SRD.org made the unfortunate choice to try to replicate things' appearance in the actual books, and just add hyperlinks. In this, they did an excellent job, but it really wastes a lot of what the site could have done with the material.

That said, I suspect (strongly) that there were considerable historical reasons for that decision in the first place.

Myou
2009-09-08, 01:32 PM
d20SRD.org made the unfortunate choice to try to replicate things' appearance in the actual books, and just add hyperlinks. In this, they did an excellent job, but it really wastes a lot of what the site could have done with the material.

That said, I suspect (strongly) that there were considerable historical reasons for that decision in the first place.

Yes, which is why I use dandwiki. But I use d20srd when dandwiki is down. *Eyeroll.*

What reasons are they?

Surgo
2009-09-08, 01:44 PM
I suppose it's all about personal taste. Which is why I am absolutely open to suggestions as to how we can make the SRD and UA formatting on our wiki better.

Myou
2009-09-08, 02:19 PM
I suppose it's all about personal taste. Which is why I am absolutely open to suggestions as to how we can make the SRD and UA formatting on our wiki better.

Well, the dandwiki search doesn't seem to work. Maybe you can fix that in your version?

Godskook
2009-09-08, 02:22 PM
@Surgo, really, right now, if I used homebrew, it'd either (a) be something I made myself or (b) be something from a trusted homebrewer around here like Fax or Krimm. I don't care that 5,000 people I don't know or trust think a feat or class is balanced when I could just grab something built by Krimm un-reviewed and be far safer. If you could add some kind of 'weight' to the system so that I'd be able tell if certain recognized people have given it a seal of approval, people like me would be far more comfortable with using said resource.

Myou
2009-09-08, 02:25 PM
@Surgo, really, right now, if I used homebrew, it'd either (a) be something I made myself or (b) be something from a trusted homebrewer around here like Fax or Krimm. I don't care that 5,000 people I don't know or trust think a feat or class is balanced when I could just grab something built by Krimm un-reviewed and be far safer. If you could add some kind of 'weight' to the system so that I'd be able tell if certain recognized people have given it a seal of approval, people like me would be far more comfortable with using said resource.

I'm the same - I've banned dandwiki homebrew because you just can't trust it if you don't know who made it. Well put, well put.

Surgo
2009-09-08, 02:29 PM
@Surgo, really, right now, if I used homebrew, it'd either (a) be something I made myself or (b) be something from a trusted homebrewer around here like Fax or Krimm. I don't care that 5,000 people I don't know or trust think a feat or class is balanced when I could just grab something built by Krimm un-reviewed and be far safer. If you could add some kind of 'weight' to the system so that I'd be able tell if certain recognized people have given it a seal of approval, people like me would be far more comfortable with using said resource.
That's another thing we're actually in the process of creating -- a small Rating Committee, made up of about 9 of our best balancers / creators / etc. who vote on the quality of the various pages, which then get their vote translated into tiny little bronze / silver / gold stars that appear under the author's name.

Well, not so much in the process of creating as we already created it, but it's not a fast process to rate every page.

It's a combination of this system and the aforementioned "balance points" that we hope turn out to be good aids for DMs who are coming and looking whether something is appropriate or not for their campaign.


Well, the dandwiki search doesn't seem to work. Maybe you can fix that in your version?
That, at least, is already fixed on ours.

Lord_Gareth
2009-09-08, 02:30 PM
How does one get work into the "entry process" - that is to say, submitted to the wiki for testing and (hopefully) posting?

Surgo
2009-09-08, 02:34 PM
How does one get work into the "entry process" - that is to say, submitted to the wiki for testing and (hopefully) posting?
Just upload it.

Upload a Feat, Flaw, Trait, or Alternate Class Feature (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Add_New_3.5e_Character_Option)
Upload a class (of any sort) (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/3.5e_Classes)
Upload a spell or power (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Add_New_3.5e_Spell_or_Power)
Upload a race (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Add_a_New_3.5e_Race)

There are similar pages for creatures, etc. (All can be found under the "3.5e Homebrew" link on the sidebar, and not everything is created yet sadly.) The directions for creating pages from the preloads should be well-done (if they are not I can fix them to be more intuitive), and if you're more of a by-example learner or doer you can just copy/paste the code from someone else's page and replace it with your own stuff.

After it's uploaded, the rating committee will get around to reviewing it. If it's obviously unusable crap, it just gets tagged for deletion as soon as somebody notices it (which is pretty fast).

Godskook
2009-09-08, 02:37 PM
That's another thing we're actually in the process of creating -- a small Rating Committee, made up of about 9 of our best balancers / creators / etc. who vote on the quality of the various pages, which then get their vote translated into tiny little bronze / silver / gold stars that appear under the author's name.

Well, not so much in the process of creating as we already created it, but it's not a fast process to rate every page.

It's a combination of this system and the aforementioned "balance points" that we hope turn out to be good aids for DMs who are coming and looking whether something is appropriate or not for their campaign.

Um, no. I meant a system where I could go in and say: "Find me all classes rated 9/10 by Fax Celestis" or possibly "Find me all resources approved by my DM". What you're suggesting is "Find me all resources approved by 9 people I've never heard of". No offense, but I personally don't know you or any other DandD homebrewer, so I don't care if its your 'best' guys doing the rating, I still have no idea what their track record is.

Surgo
2009-09-08, 02:41 PM
Um, no. I meant a system where I could go in and say: "Find me all classes rated 9/10 by Fax Celestis" or possibly "Find me all resources approved by my DM". What you're suggesting is "Find me all resources approved by 9 people I've never heard of". No offense, but I personally don't know you or any other DandD homebrewer, so I don't care if its your 'best' guys doing the rating, I still have no idea what their track record is.
Then, quite simply, I don't think there is any wiki or website on the internet that will help you. I don't know who Fax Celestis is, but I'm willing to bet he has better things to do with his time than rate every homebrew class ever, so such a system would be doomed to failure before it even started. I'm also not sure how you managed to use any Wizards of the Coast book ever, because it doesn't say which class was created by who.

(Though "all material approved by my DM" is pretty easy because they generally give a list of what's approved for their campaign.)

(More stuff removed due to incomprehensibility.)

Lord_Gareth
2009-09-08, 02:41 PM
Just upload it.

Upload a Feat, Flaw, Trait, or Alternate Class Feature (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Add_New_3.5e_Character_Option)
Upload a class (of any sort) (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/3.5e_Classes)
Upload a spell or power (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Add_New_3.5e_Spell_or_Power)
Upload a race (http://dungeons.wikia.com/wiki/Add_a_New_3.5e_Race)

There are similar pages for creatures, etc. (All can be found under the "3.5e Homebrew" link on the sidebar, and not everything is created yet sadly.) The directions for creating pages from the preloads should be well-done (if they are not I can fix them to be more intuitive), and if you're more of a by-example learner or doer you can just copy/paste the code from someone else's page and replace it with your own stuff.

After it's uploaded, the rating committee will get around to reviewing it. If it's obviously unusable crap, it just gets tagged for deletion as soon as somebody notices it (which is pretty fast).

Unfortunately, there are several flaws with my attempts to use this particular system of submission:

1. I can only use public computers. Lacking a flash drive, I have no place to hold any of my work aside from this board.

2. I can't navigate a wiki to save my life.

Surgo
2009-09-08, 02:43 PM
Unfortunately, there are several flaws with my attempts to use this particular system of submission:

1. I can only use public computers. Lacking a flash drive, I have no place to hold any of my work aside from this board.

2. I can't navigate a wiki to save my life.
In that case, you can give someone else permission to upload it (like me) and if they like it enough they'll happily do so. (I mean, it takes me longer to decide if I like something or not than it does to upload it.)

Lord_Gareth
2009-09-08, 02:45 PM
Excellent! It's been awhile since most of it was reviewed or balanced, but feel free to upload all the content found in the first link of my signature; it should contain several races, templates, and prestige classes. Oh, and a bunch of semi-joke artifacts. Thank'ee much, good sir!

Stycotl
2009-09-08, 02:47 PM
Um, no. I meant a system where I could go in and say: "Find me all classes rated 9/10 by Fax Celestis" or possibly "Find me all resources approved by my DM". What you're suggesting is "Find me all resources approved by 9 people I've never heard of". No offense, but I personally don't know you or any other DandD homebrewer, so I don't care if its your 'best' guys doing the rating, I still have no idea what their track record is.

you might be approaching the unreasonable here; i'm not exactly sure what programming capabilities the site and site admin have, or what kind of time and energy they have to devote to the cause, but this seems a little bizarre to me.

before coming to the playground, you didn't know krimm, fax, or any of the others, and had no clue whether or not their stuff was generally balanced or not.

the only way you came to that opinion was by consistently looking at their stuff and the stuff that they critique. now we are talking about a different site, with different veteran homebrewers and different ways of doing things.

if you want to hang out at the site, you'll eventually come to recognize name and reputations there as you did here; if you don't want to take the time to do that, so be it. you can't please everyone all of the time.

further, if you trust the balance issues of homebrew simply because of who it is made by, you run the risk of missing out on a lot of good homebrew, and of accidentally missing hellishly broken things done by otherwise reputable brewers. even fax, krimm, demented, vorpal, and others have produced some whoppers occasionally. similarly, some of the coolest homebrew ideas i've found have been created by no-name newbies that posted and disappeared from the forum all together...

Flickerdart
2009-09-08, 03:12 PM
I dunno, user-approval of articles might not be too difficult. Just let DMs tag material with "~This class/race/feat/spell is approved by X for Y campaign" on a discussion-like page (so as to not clutter it up). Alternately, their user pages could just link to approved stuff.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-08, 03:31 PM
Yes, which is why I use dandwiki. But I use d20srd when dandwiki is down. *Eyeroll.*
But that is not the same as "having something against good design", it's having different goals for the design.

I also don't understand how d20SRD could be considered bulky. It uses, what, two images total? There's no scripts, no flash, it's all pretty much just static HTML with CSS stylings. Hardly bulky.


What reasons are they?
I don't know the exact history of the site, but I expect that it was built up over time, rather than unleashed all at once, and that before the existence of d20SRD (which, as I understand things, did a lot to popularize the SRD in general), those extra books (XPH, ELH, UA) were not as commonly considered "Core" as they are now. Hence the desire to keep them separate, even though most today would rather not have them separate (I think; of course anyone who hates Psionics is going to disagree with me here).

Fax Celestis
2009-09-08, 03:34 PM
I don't know who Fax Celestis isThat would be me.


but I'm willing to bet he has better things to do with his time than rate every homebrew class ever

I do.

My question, then: I have my own wiki (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php) which uses MediaWiki format. Would there be a way to cross-pollinate the two wikis, as it were? I don't want to have to maintain three(!) instances of a homebrew (the thread version and then two wiki pages), and I'm rather attached to my wiki.

Random832
2009-09-08, 03:35 PM
I also don't understand how d20SRD could be considered bulky. It uses, what, two images total? There's no scripts, no flash, it's all pretty much just static HTML with CSS stylings. Hardly bulky.

One problem is having to load the whole page, and having to scroll through it

Their layout also has a nasty bug where if you click the link to a section or search with firefox search, the section header / the match you found in the search is hidden under the page heading, so sending someone a link to a specific section isn't generally considered viable.

Surgo
2009-09-08, 03:42 PM
My question, then: I have my own wiki (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php) which uses MediaWiki format. Would there be a way to cross-pollinate the two wikis, as it were? I don't want to have to maintain three(!) instances of a homebrew (the thread version and then two wiki pages), and I'm rather attached to my wiki.
Yes. Provided everything is in the same format, a script can be written to transform from your wiki format to our wiki format, or vice versa.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-08, 03:43 PM
Yes. Provided everything is in the same format, a script can be written to transform from your wiki format to our wiki format, or vice versa.

Does your site allow templates?

Godskook
2009-09-08, 03:47 PM
Then, quite simply, I don't think there is any wiki or website on the internet that will help you. I don't know who Fax Celestis is, but I'm willing to bet he has better things to do with his time than rate every homebrew class ever, so such a system would be doomed to failure before it even started. I'm also not sure how you managed to use any Wizards of the Coast book ever, because it doesn't say which class was created by who.

Fax was an example, and one that many around here know. My point would've equally worked with "find all resources rated 9/10 by Surgo". Or say you guys have a homebrewer come along - he never really gets involved with the staff, but he does a lot of rating, lets call him bob 2.0. Well, I look at a homebrew submitted by bob 2.0, and I think he's got a good sense of balance and such, I so I decide to see what else he's done/rated. I look around and realize that he really, really, really has a good eye, and I tell players in the game I'm DMing that "you can go to the wikia, and use anything rated well by bob 2.0, as well as x/y/z wotc books, anything else by approval only". That's what I'd like.

As far as WotC goes, to a degree, I do trust them. They'll churn out a few broken things here or there, but it isn't nearly as bad as some homebrew I've seen flying around. Besides, I've seen a lot of review on wotc material. I know the general consensus about quite a few of the different books. ToB classes are strong compared to most things, but still don't compete against basic full-casters like clerics, wizards and sorcerers. Mystic Theurge is brokenly underpowered for casters, but if you want to tone it down to play with some non-casters, its not *that* bad(read: you'll still get all the pretty spells, just a little later) whereas polymorph is broken-good to the point that it should probably be banned in any game, or at least heavily adjusted(Burlew's version seems a *lot* better though). Really, though, comparing wotc material with homebrew is like comparing apples and oranges. Sure, it is 'possible' that both are equally broken, but with wotc stuff, you can find out how and why pretty easily, since everyone knows what you're talking about. Homebrew just doesn't have that kind of support, and so it requires a more cautious approach.


you might be approaching the unreasonable here; i'm not exactly sure what programming capabilities the site and site admin have, or what kind of time and energy they have to devote to the cause, but this seems a little bizarre to me.

Not really, what I'm asking for requires being able to save a single line of text per user per homebrew page, and then being able to run searches based on it. Maybe you don't have the hard drive space for that(an O(n^2) data requirement is tough, I'll admit), but if including it in the search engine is difficult, I'd worry.


if you want to hang out at the site, you'll eventually come to recognize name and reputations there as you did here; if you don't want to take the time to do that, so be it. you can't please everyone all of the time.

Wikis seem to disassociate users and information. That's been my experience with most of them, at least. There's less 'discussion' and more 'presentation' going on. I've learned of the names and reputations of some of the guys around here by reading the discussions.


further, if you trust the balance issues of homebrew simply because of who it is made by, you run the risk of missing out on a lot of good homebrew, and of accidentally missing hellishly broken things done by otherwise reputable brewers. even fax, krimm, demented, vorpal, and others have produced some whoppers occasionally. similarly, some of the coolest homebrew ideas i've found have been created by no-name newbies that posted and disappeared from the forum all together...

Well, yeah, they create some whoppers at times, but then get them peer reviewed. Hell, I just saw one by krimm? that as-was would've given the character the ability to enervate thousands of people at once, with one spell. Thing is, he asked for review, and when the loophole was pointed out, he slammed it down so tight as to relegate the class feature to 'marginal at best' territory.

Surgo
2009-09-08, 03:47 PM
Does your site allow templates?
Yes, and they are extensively used to make pages look good. What are you thinking of doing? The template language isn't exactly powerful.

edit: Crossposted with Godskook.


Wikis seem to disassociate users and information. That's been my experience with most of them, at least. There's less 'discussion' and more 'presentation' going on. I've learned of the names and reputations of some of the guys around here by reading the discussions.
Not true on this wiki; the top of every page lists authorship information.


Well, yeah, they create some whoppers at times, but then get them peer reviewed. Hell, I just saw one by krimm? that as-was would've given the character the ability to enervate thousands of people at once, with one spell. Thing is, he asked for review, and when the loophole was pointed out, he slammed it down so tight as to relegate the class feature to 'marginal at best' territory.
Everything posted on our wiki gets peer reviewed now; your problem seems to be with who is doing the reviewing.


Not really, what I'm asking for requires being able to save a single line of text per user per homebrew page, and then being able to run searches based on it. Maybe you don't have the hard drive space for that(an O(n^2) data requirement is tough, I'll admit), but if including it in the search engine is difficult, I'd worry.
It's certainly possible to code (and it would just be a subsection of everybody's user page), and searches like that are trivial with an extension we use extensively, but what I'm getting at is I doubt the system would get off the ground because nobody's really interested in reviewing a whole lot of crap. That's why we've got an entire 9 people on the rating committee, among other reasons.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-08, 03:51 PM
Yes, and they are extensively used to make pages look good. What are you thinking of doing? The template language isn't exactly powerful.

Take (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Template:Class) an (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Template:Feat) example (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=d20_Rebirth) gander (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Template:GitP) at these (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Template:d20r) pages (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=Template:Spell).

Surgo
2009-09-08, 03:55 PM
I see what you mean. A script to translate between the wikis would still be required (to keep the look between the two consistent), but it shouldn't be particularly onerous. It's not as if those templates are particularly difficult to parse. I'll see what I can whip up over the next couple of days.

Godskook
2009-09-08, 04:22 PM
Everything posted on our wiki gets peer reviewed now; your problem seems to be with who is doing the reviewing.

No, my concern is knowing and being able to control who's reviews I'm using.


It's certainly possible to code (and it would just be a subsection of everybody's user page), and searches like that are trivial with an extension we use extensively, but what I'm getting at is I doubt the system would get off the ground because nobody's really interested in reviewing a whole lot of crap.

Honestly, I can see it having plenty of uses, besides the one I've already described. For instance, say a DM wants to set up a unique campaign world. He can setup a new ratings section for himself(without a little new coding, he'd just make a second account), and start browsing along finding creatures, templates, deities, classes, spells and feats that exist in his campaign world. His finished product would be self-contained and easily searched through, and his players wouldn't be at all confused about what was or wasn't allowed in that campaign. Give the tools, the users will find ways of using it.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-08, 04:26 PM
One problem is having to load the whole page, and having to scroll through it
As all-text, this can't take a very long time, though.


Their layout also has a nasty bug where if you click the link to a section or search with firefox search, the section header / the match you found in the search is hidden under the page heading, so sending someone a link to a specific section isn't generally considered viable.
This has happened to me a few times, it's true, but in general it's hardly been common. Usually such links work just fine for me. *shrug*


Yes. Provided everything is in the same format, a script can be written to transform from your wiki format to our wiki format, or vice versa.
PyWikipedia is a really solid WikiBot, if you're interested. I'm not sure how much Wikia gives you from the get-go (certainly an awful lot more than a normal MediaWiki installation), so it may not be necessary, but it's my recommendation if you're looking for a 'bot to automate things.


Wikis seem to disassociate users and information. That's been my experience with most of them, at least. There's less 'discussion' and more 'presentation' going on. I've learned of the names and reputations of some of the guys around here by reading the discussions.
That's a matter of policy, not software (and Wiki is just software, even if many sites running the software tend towards similar policies). That said, there are definitely very good reasons for that dissociation on many Wikis - but something like Homebrew is not one of them.


Yes, and they are extensively used to make pages look good. What are you thinking of doing? The template language isn't exactly powerful.
I... disagree. Templates are certainly limited in some ways, but they can definitely generate very complex behavior if you're willing to work at it. Do you have the ParserFunctions extension? I'm pretty sure Wikia comes with it natively, but if not you should definitely get it.

Surgo
2009-09-08, 04:33 PM
No, my concern is knowing and being able to control who's reviews I'm using.

...but, they already can. They can just put a bunch of links of stuff they like on their userpage. And then you can go to their userpage. It doesn't take much to integrate this with the search already in place.


Honestly, I can see it having plenty of uses, besides the one I've already described. For instance, say a DM wants to set up a unique campaign world. He can setup a new ratings section for himself(without a little new coding, he'd just make a second account), and start browsing along finding creatures, templates, deities, classes, spells and feats that exist in his campaign world. His finished product would be self-contained and easily searched through, and his players wouldn't be at all confused about what was or wasn't allowed in that campaign. Give the tools, the users will find ways of using it.

I mean, it's pretty simple to put up a link that says "Like this / Dislike this" and have a personal page that puts up links to stuff that you like or dislike and have that be easily searchable with semantic mediawiki.

But this is basically what people already do for their campaign worlds. At this point I'm really just not sure what you want anymore.


PyWikipedia is a really solid WikiBot, if you're interested. I'm not sure how much Wikia gives you from the get-go (certainly an awful lot more than a normal MediaWiki installation), so it may not be necessary, but it's my recommendation if you're looking for a 'bot to automate things.
I've been running bots since the wiki was up, no worries here.


I... disagree. Templates are certainly limited in some ways, but they can definitely generate very complex behavior if you're willing to work at it. Do you have the ParserFunctions extension? I'm pretty sure Wikia comes with it natively, but if not you should definitely get it.
Complex behavior with some nasty limitations. Yes, we have that extension.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-08, 04:49 PM
The nastiest thing about complicated templates is how ugly the code can get (which it seriously can). Though there certainly are limitations on what they can do, none come to mind as particularly "nasty".

Then again, you seem to have perhaps even more Wiki experience (and certainly more "proper" Wiki experience) than I do, so you probably know something I don't.

Milskidasith
2009-09-08, 04:54 PM
I'm wondering: Why isn't there a discussion page on articles?

Anyway, you might want to look at the Deceiver class; it's pretty terrible for a LA +2 class. It's got Mending as a SLA... and that's about it for anything decent. It can revive itself, but that's not particularly good for actually keeping it alive.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-08, 05:11 PM
I'm wondering: Why isn't there a discussion page on articles?
There is. It's in the upper right, next to where it says Article in the tab, it says Discussion. Personally, since the link to the Discussion page (at least for un-created pages) is red, on the brown background, I find it really hard to see (I have minor red-green color blindness). The black on brown (for created pages) is honestly not a whole lot better...

Godskook
2009-09-08, 05:12 PM
I mean, it's pretty simple to put up a link that says "Like this / Dislike this" and have a personal page that puts up links to stuff that you like or dislike and have that be easily searchable with semantic mediawiki.

But this is basically what people already do for their campaign worlds. At this point I'm really just not sure what you want anymore.

You know, it might be that you guys already have what I'm describing, and I've never delved deep enough into your stuff to know you do it. I don't know. I was just describing what I felt would be a useful feature.

Surgo
2009-09-08, 05:23 PM
There is. It's in the upper right, next to where it says Article in the tab, it says Discussion. Personally, since the link to the Discussion page (at least for un-created pages) is red, on the brown background, I find it really hard to see (I have minor red-green color blindness). The black on brown (for created pages) is honestly not a whole lot better...
None of us have color-related issues, so we weren't quite sure which colors to use for such that would both look okay and be maximally visible. If you could help us get a better foreground (text) color, we would really appreciate it.


You know, it might be that you guys already have what I'm describing, and I've never delved deep enough into your stuff to know you do it. I don't know. I was just describing what I felt would be a useful feature.
I agree, it could be useful. I'll see about implementing it when the rest of the tasks are done.


Anyway, you might want to look at the Deceiver class; it's pretty terrible for a LA +2 class. It's got Mending as a SLA... and that's about it for anything decent. It can revive itself, but that's not particularly good for actually keeping it alive.
You're right, it is terrible. Sigh, seems to be par for the course when it comes to the crap that guy makes. I'll make sure it gets better or gone.


The nastiest thing about complicated templates is how ugly the code can get (which it seriously can). Though there certainly are limitations on what they can do, none come to mind as particularly "nasty".

Then again, you seem to have perhaps even more Wiki experience (and certainly more "proper" Wiki experience) than I do, so you probably know something I don't.
The lack of loops is easily my biggest issue with templates.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-08, 05:26 PM
None of us have color-related issues, so we weren't quite sure which colors to use for such that would both look okay and be maximally visible. If you could help us get a better foreground (text) color, we would really appreciate it.

Use these when basing your color palletes:

http://www.growthhouse.org/graphics/netcol_colorblind_pal.jpg

http://www.stepzilla.com/anders/colourblind.jpg

I, and apparently Dragoon, are deuteranopic, the most common form.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-08, 05:36 PM
Use these when basing your color palletes:

http://www.growthhouse.org/graphics/netcol_colorblind_pal.jpg

http://www.stepzilla.com/anders/colourblind.jpg

I, and apparently Dragoon, are deuteranopic, the most common form.
Actually, no, I'm not, or at least, I can very easily see the difference between the "normal" pallette and the "deuteranopic" one. The only time I really have difficulty is with red and/or green mixed with brown - really, for the most part, the only time I cannot see the color difference is with the actual color blindness tests (the numbers hidden in the dots) - I fail miserably at the green/red and brown ones. In actual practice, I generally have no difficulty with those colors, even in combination.

For instance, I could see the link (in both red and black), but I was also looking for it. It did not pop out at me at all. And I think that's probably true of people with perfect color vision, too - the brown is on the darker end of things, as are the red and black. If you have the link against a dark background, use a bright color - the color of the tab itself, actually, would work great, since the contrast on the tab is fine.

Milskidasith
2009-09-08, 05:50 PM
Yeah; I have fine color vision, but the link made no sense. Dark red on dark brown, with no changing in tab colors? That's hard to see. Make it a different background color or make it very bright; the normal Blue might work fine (then again, it was only red because there was no talk page yet. >_>)

KeresM
2009-09-08, 08:09 PM
Not only has the owner outright refused to delete the stuff of myself and other authors who have moved off the old wiki (understandable, as we make up the entirety of worthwhile content on that wiki), he has removed authorship information from those pages (a violation of the GFDL).

Good to know.

Oh well. If you've got a little logo or something I'd be happy to add a link to my site for you guys. Better than me trying to recreate the SRD on my own.

And a way to submit links to content people have on their own sites might be useful.

Zeta Kai
2009-09-08, 08:49 PM
Well, I have to say, from what I've heard so far, I'm impressed. It sounds like you're really trying hard to create something of high quality that's easy to use. I commend your effort, & I lament that you may bear the stigma of your predecessor for some time. I wish you good luck, & I hope that I may contribute when I have time. As you can see from the homebrew in my signature, I have some items to offer.

Gralamin
2009-09-08, 09:05 PM
I suppose I should eventually start migrating more of my stuff over, probably in between classes. It'll be nice to have a place with a substantial amount of homebrew for 4e in the same place.

Then again, I do have some old 3.5 stuff that was pretty good, maybe I should move some of that over first.

elliott20
2009-09-08, 10:40 PM
book marked, and possibly will sig in future.

I'm totally psyched to see that there are people who have dedicated themselves to QAing homebrew stuff. It also means that you can at least expect to get consistent quality of feedback too on my own stuff.

Milskidasith
2009-09-08, 10:45 PM
So how rigorous is this quality control going to be? Just curious.

elliott20
2009-09-08, 11:27 PM
You know what, I will use this wiki to host my own homebrew campaign idea as an experiment to see how it all works.

Godskook
2009-09-08, 11:29 PM
I agree, it could be useful. I'll see about implementing it when the rest of the tasks are done.

Cool. And here's the thing. If I know of a place where I could do what I described, I'd probably start loading my completed stuff(few though it is right now) there and linking to it(If I heard of a way to qualify for Fax's wiki, I'd do that in a heart beat).

---------------

Oh, here's a big one. We really need a place to go to find the 'standard' tables. Currently, if I need things like WBL or X-by-level, I either have to 'hope' on a search, or get a copy of the DMG. It is ridiculous that it is not easy to find on the dandd wiki(WBL, specifically, I've not bothered with anything else specifically).

On the same note, and this might be asking too much(or rather, something completely outside of your goals), new players would probably enjoy character generation tools(kinda like if you're playing a video game).

Gralamin
2009-09-08, 11:31 PM
Oh, here's a big one. We really need a place to go to find the 'standard' tables. Currently, if I need things like WBL or X-by-level, I either have to 'hope' on a search, or get a copy of the DMG. It is ridiculous that it is not easy to find on the dandd wiki(WBL, specifically, I've not bothered with anything else specifically).
Not Released in the OGL, and thus not possible to post online legally.


On the same note, and this might be asking too much(or rather, something completely outside of your goals), new players would probably enjoy character generation tools(kinda like if you're playing a video game).

Tons of tools exist around the internet for that. (PCGen, and Redblade to name two off the top of my head.)

elliott20
2009-09-08, 11:39 PM
My personal favorite is HeroForge. If that thing had a better interface, I would recommend it every single time.

Fax Celestis
2009-09-08, 11:54 PM
Cool. And here's the thing. If I know of a place where I could do what I described, I'd probably start loading my completed stuff(few though it is right now) there and linking to it(If I heard of a way to qualify for Fax's wiki, I'd do that in a heart beat).

My wiki is available on a request-access basis. You can request by posting here.

Zeta Kai
2009-09-08, 11:56 PM
Oh, here's a big one. We really need a place to go to find the 'standard' tables. Currently, if I need things like WBL or X-by-level, I either have to 'hope' on a search, or get a copy of the DMG. It is ridiculous that it is not easy to find on the dandd wiki(WBL, specifically, I've not bothered with anything else specifically).

I make a habit of carrying a flash drive on me at all times (my job demands it anyway, so I might as well). On the thumb drive is an up-to-date copy of my work & personal files (keep 'em separate, folks).

The reason that I mention the banal minutia of my life is this: In my personal files, I keep an Excel spreadsheet with various tables, like the XP chart, WBL, all that stuff. It's incredibly handy. I don't have the books on-hand most of the time, but my chip is with me wherever I go.

I know that 20 years from now, I'll be one of those freaks with a chip in my head, but I'll always have my WBL chart. :smallwink:

Godskook
2009-09-09, 12:55 AM
My wiki is available on a request-access basis. You can request by posting here.

Words fail to describe.


I know that 20 years from now, I'll be one of those freaks with a chip in my head, but I'll always have my WBL chart. :smallwink:

Yeah, I've had a copy of the DMG, its just not conveniently located on my laptop. I say 'had' because now, now I have several. That'll teach me to brainstorm in a popular thread(And really, like everything else I've posted in this thread, it wasn't so much for me as it was something I thought would be good for the site in question).

dobu
2009-09-09, 02:09 AM
My personal favorite is HeroForge. If that thing had a better interface, I would recommend it every single time.

if it would work on openoffice (or anything other than MS office), it would be great. unfortunately they use vba macros.

elliott20
2009-09-09, 02:22 AM
yeah, that's my complaint too since this means everybody who wants to use it needs to grab office.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-09, 05:43 AM
if it would work on openoffice (or anything other than MS office), it would be great. unfortunately they use vba macros.
To be fair, unlike the vast majority of Microsoft products, Excel is genuinely and noticeably superior to the alternatives (Calc, in this case). As something of a power-user of Excel (yeah, including VBA, though I usually don't need to use it), I could not use Calc to do everything I wanted it to do*. I can't say one way or the other on whether Hero Forge could get by without the VBA (or other Excel features), since I haven't used it, but there are definitely very legitimate reasons for that.

There's also the issue of author preference. Whoever wrote it, presumably, used the system he was most comfortable with simply because it was written purely as a hobby and he felt no need to apply strict portability and compatibility rules on the software (unlike what you might see in a professional product). As free software, I don't really feel like it's fair for you to have any "complaint" at all. I know you guys aren't really complaining or criticizing them on this, I just felt the need to comment because as someone who has done similar coding projects in the past, it's really frustrating, annoying, and often down-right rude when people complain about one thing or another in the software that you're offering them absolutely free.

* full disclosure - I have not tried Calc in several months, and haven't really tested it in over a year now. At the time I was running into features I wanted but did not exist within half an hour, but for all I know, that may have changed by now. If so, kudos for them. But since I already own MS Excel, love the program, and am more than willing to support its development (as opposed to some other MS products), I doubt I will be switching to Calc any time soon. I have recommended it to users who do not use the features that I use, however.

arkanis
2009-09-09, 06:00 AM
I've already started using this wiki and it seems very straightforward. You may want to consider contacting people from the old one to help you with this endeavor.

Surgo
2009-09-09, 08:27 AM
Arkanis, there's actually a specific page for you to upload your feats on their own pages. What you're doing right now is uploading them straight to the navigation page.

Also, please avoid mechanically editing the pages made by other people...they are, in fact, in active use in campaigns.

Random832
2009-09-09, 08:36 AM
I'm just happy Heroforge runs on Excel 2000; I'd hate to have to upgrade (though they do push the style limits, which are increased in 2007 from previous versions)

elliott20
2009-09-09, 09:01 AM
I just started posting my campaign world on the wiki. So far though, the writing style has been very much like most discussion boards. Plus, I haven't been able to post any links or the likes yet.

Surgo
2009-09-09, 09:45 AM
If you need help formatting campaign setting stuff, don't worry, I can help. We actually have a pretty good campaign setting preload that does a lot of the work for you (let me make sure it's there). If you need any help with wiki-formatting or anything, feel free to join the chat (it's a faster and less annoying way to get answers than constant back-and-forth on a message board).


As free software, I don't really feel like it's fair for you to have any "complaint" at all.
I think the complaint that it's not really free because you have to purchase Microsoft Excel to use it at all is pretty valid.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-09, 01:41 PM
I'm just happy Heroforge runs on Excel 2000; I'd hate to have to upgrade (though they do push the style limits, which are increased in 2007 from previous versions)
Heh, Office 2007 doesn't bother me in the slightest. I never use the menu to do anything anyway; hotkeys all the way. The new conditional formatting rules are a life-saver, for one. I make heavy use of those, myself.


I think the complaint that it's not really free because you have to purchase Microsoft Excel to use it at all is pretty valid.
To the author of the free software? No, it's not. He isn't getting any recompensation for his work, it is provided as-is, you can take it or leave it. Since you're not a paying customer, you really have no cause to complain about anything. Asking if it would be possible to port to Calc, that's reasonable. Complaining about how he volunteered his time? Not reasonable.

It's the same reason I don't go to the OpenOffice forums and complain about all the Excel features that they're missing. I'm sure they know, one, and two, they owe me nothing, so I'm not going to complain - I'm just going to buy Excel because it is worth it to me.

Surgo
2009-09-09, 01:50 PM
To elaborate, I wasn't saying "complain to the author" -- I was saying complain in general. To the air (or the forum), if you will. The fact that I can't use an otherwise great tool is certainly worth complaining about. Neither myself nor elliot (I imagine) have gone to this guy's forum and complained how it was done in VBA.

DragoonWraith
2009-09-09, 02:25 PM
To elaborate, I wasn't saying "complain to the author" -- I was saying complain in general. To the air (or the forum), if you will. The fact that I can't use an otherwise great tool is certainly worth complaining about. Neither myself nor elliot (I imagine) have gone to this guy's forum and complained how it was done in VBA.
Ah, sorry, I misunderstood.

Yeah, sorry, that was all very off-topic, I apologize. I'm just used to dealing with ungrateful bastards who do complain, vociferously, about stuff like that, to me.

(not that I thought you were that type, either. But even without being that kind of ingrate, sometimes even perfectly respectful people can fail to realize that something like that can be rude)

dobu
2009-09-09, 03:02 PM
a final off-topic post from the one who started it :D

I like heroforge, it's a nice tool, but i can't open it on my linux box. Everytime I want to use it i have to boot up my windows. that's just annoying. vba macros are the way to do it in excel, no doubt, but there's no way to get it working on openoffice. that's all i wanted to say. I'd love to have some openoffice port, but I still appreciate the work the author has done.

I've done many things on excel (mostly statistical stuff and some macro programming) and I have to say: calc has improved in many ways since openoffice 3.0 was released. Though I still prefer excel as well ;)

If i've got too much time on my hands I'll extract some lists and reimplement them on my own (calc-based) char-sheet.

back to topic again:

this wiki looks interesting, maybe I can contribute something.

arkanis
2009-09-09, 08:06 PM
{Scrubbed}

Surgo
2009-09-09, 08:12 PM
{Scrubbed}

Zeta Kai
2009-09-09, 08:40 PM
Please calm down everyone. There's no reason that we can't have a civil discourse. Nobody wants a flame war, especially not here.

Back on topic, do you have a submission tutorial, for people who are unfamiliar with the process of adding material to a Wiki?

Surgo
2009-09-09, 08:43 PM
Back on topic, do you have a submission tutorial, for people who are unfamiliar with the process of adding material to a Wiki?
Normally this is where I would point you to the various navigation pages and say "on the top of each one there's a link that says "Add New X" but unfortunately not all of those pages exist at the moment so I can't do that.

What I can do is tell you to go click on "3.5e Homebrew" or "4e Homebrew". Many of those pages exist, and on the top of each one there's a link that says "Add New 3.5e Character Option" (which includes feats, flaws, and traits) or "Add New 3.5e Class" (ditto for classes of all types). Once you get there, just enter in the name of the page you want to make and it will bring up a handy preload that has been already formatted for you with the correct wiki formatting, where you go through and fill in all the appropriate values. For 4e stuff it's really idiot-proof (you'll see what I mean if you try to upload a power).

If that's not up your alley, you can also find another page similar to the page you're making (like another feat if you're making a feat), copy the text, and replace it with your own text while leaving the formatting intact.

If none of the above works for you, you can join our chat and we'd be happy to help you with your uploading.

elliott20
2009-09-09, 09:14 PM
yeah that's what I did with my campaign setting and it pretty much just led me to a new page. It's fine though, since it gives me a chance to review what I've written and I can try to head off some potential issues right away.

Surgo
2009-09-09, 09:17 PM
What is your campaign setting's title, Elliot? I'll move the page for you and help you format it. I could have sworn I had the Campaign Setting page up and ready for use (sorry about that).

DragoonWraith
2009-09-09, 09:23 PM
Do we just put things on the Wiki, and someone checks 'em out, or is there some kind of submission process where things get vetted before inclusion?

Surgo
2009-09-09, 09:24 PM
You just put 'em up there, and then myself or someone else who is browsing will check them out. Note that good stuff rarely gets comments, though poor stuff usually gets comments pretty quickly. That's kind of unfortunate and we'll try to change that behavior.

arkanis
2009-09-09, 10:19 PM
{scrubbed}

Surgo
2009-09-09, 10:31 PM
{Scrubbed}

Roland St. Jude
2009-09-09, 10:45 PM
Sheriff of Moddingham: Please don't bring your disputes from other forums (or RL) here. Our Forum Rules expressly prohibit it.


External Baggage
Each thread should exist in a vacuum, free from outside influences—especially those outside of these boards. What this means is that you can't carry over anger from a debate in another thread into a new discussion, and you can't harass anyone over anything they did in another thread, on another website's board, or in real life. If you can't check your baggage at the door, you'll end up earning an Infraction.

elliott20
2009-09-10, 12:15 AM
Surgo, the campaign is called "Legend of the Seven". The campaign page is there it's just that I don't see any template formatting for it. Maybe I messed up somewhere and hit the wrong link or maybe I missed a step somewhere (i.e. do I need to import a template first or some such before getting a campaign template?)

I actually don't mind though since it means I have to examine my own documentation and organization.

Surgo
2009-09-10, 07:31 AM
The problem is on our end, Elliot, not yours. We didn't get the necessary pages and preloads for campaign settings up yet.

But yeah, just focus on the text. We'll handle getting it all to look pretty.

Tyndmyr
2009-09-10, 12:50 PM
You know, it might be that you guys already have what I'm describing, and I've never delved deep enough into your stuff to know you do it. I don't know. I was just describing what I felt would be a useful feature.

As for the rating system, that sounds like an implemention of slashcode. It's both popular and effective, but merging wiki and slashcode together might be rather challenging.

Lappy9000
2009-09-15, 11:11 AM
I've been trying to look at the new wiki, but the amount of junk that needs to be downloaded to view the pages is really daunting. I'm sure it's probably unavoidable, what with those advertisements paying the bills, but if ever someone gets the chance to reduce the amount of ads on the site, I'll be very happy indeed :smallcool:

Surgo
2009-09-16, 01:08 PM
If you register, you only see an ad on the main page -- the other ads go away.

gooddragon1
2009-10-08, 12:07 PM
This pretty much nails it. {Scrubbed}

I was completely unaware that this was the case. Also, can you have an "unbalanced crap" section for those of us who don't want our creativity bounded by the rules of balance and deleted when we put effort into it? That way we can fix it or leave it as is for others who like unbalanced crap.

EDIT: Maybe just tack a special symbol next to anything you feel is unbalanced...

Hooper
2009-10-11, 08:35 PM
{Scrubbed.}

Since my post was Scrubbed (which is quite understandable, really), I'll just state that like many other things, users disagree on things on these other sites. Find the one that is right for you.