PDA

View Full Version : [3.5] Help with my horrible Will save



Master_Rahl22
2009-09-08, 09:24 AM
So, I recently discovered that the Moment of Perfect Mind maneuver is good, but not enough against somebody who specializes in forcing Will saves, since you at most get it once every 2 turns. I looked through the MIC and found the Mindarmor enchantment and the Mindvault itme, but both of those are kinda meh. Mindarmor uses an immediate reaction, and Mindvault leaves me dazed for a turn, and also uses an immediate reaction.

My question is, what are some good magic items to boost my Will save or even become immune to mind-affecting spells/effects? I have around 16,000 to spend now, and could have up to 30,000 if I need it. Thanks.

Temet Nosce
2009-09-08, 09:35 AM
Immunity is expensive, the only one that jumps to mind is a Ring of Mental Fortitude (110k GP) or Mind Blank (a level 8 Sorc/Wiz spell).

As far as upping it... Well, maybe take either Steadfast Determination or Force of Personality if you have a better Con or Cha than Wis. Those feats let you apply different stats to your will save.

Grumman
2009-09-08, 09:37 AM
If you have access to Complete Scoundrel, there's a special location called the Otyugh Hole that can grant you Iron Will, which the book says is an equivalent reward to 3,000gp in treasure. Could you ask your DM to let you retcon some of your equipment to swap it for this? Or ask him to consider using an appropriate location at some point?

Master_Rahl22
2009-09-08, 10:21 AM
I'll look into Steadfast Determination. I doubt the special location will fly since this is for a PvP competition with some very strict rules. Any other suggestions?

Yzzyx
2009-09-08, 10:56 AM
I'll look into Steadfast Determination. I doubt the special location will fly since this is for a PvP competition with some very strict rules. Any other suggestions?

Get a Cloak/Vest of Resistance, if for some reason you don't have one. Maybe consider an enchantment bonus to Wisdom. A Crystal of Mind Cloaking gives a bonus on saves against mind-affecting things, which might help, and a Cat's-eye brooch gives a +1 luck bonus on all saves for less than half the price of a luckstone. Hmm... nothing else quickly comes to mind.

Tehnar
2009-09-08, 11:33 AM
In the spell compendium there is also a spell called Conviction. It gives a moral bonus to saves (starting at +2). So you could buy a wand, scrolls, or even make a item that allows you to cast it a few times a day. Possibly the cheapest way to get your saves up.


Also if you are worried about domination effects you could do the same thing with protection from good/evil, or buy a horn of goodness which creates magic circle vs evil once per day.

Draz74
2009-09-08, 11:40 AM
Crystal Mask of Mindarmor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/items/universalItems.htm#crystalMaskofMindarmor). +4 insight bonus to Will saves. Magic Item Compendium (a more up-to-date source than XPH) lowered its cost to 10k gp.

Eldariel
2009-09-08, 11:51 AM
Legacy Weapons can also bear a Personal Mind Blank as a Greater-tier ability. They have some associated costs and you can get it level 17 the earliest, but it works.

Olo Demonsbane
2009-09-08, 12:05 PM
Huh, I wonder what this is about :smalltongue:

Potions of Conviction +5 are only 900gp. Favorite One-Use Item Ever.

Master_Rahl22
2009-09-08, 12:23 PM
Ok, so I've changed my feats around to get Steadfast Determination (Con is +1 instead of Wis -1), changed my Cloak of Resistance to +2, and added a Cat's-Eye Brooch and Lesser Crystal of Mind Cloaking. That gets me up to +8 Will save, +11 vs mind-affecting stuff over my old +4 Will save. I think that will work. Thanks a bunch guys.

Master_Rahl22
2009-09-08, 12:26 PM
This is for general information, I have no idea what you're talking about Olo. :smallwink:

Oh and I did nab a Potion of Conviction +5. :smallbiggrin:

Myrmex
2009-09-08, 12:29 PM
You could also prepare moment of perfect whatever a couple times.

Draz74
2009-09-08, 12:52 PM
You could also prepare moment of perfect whatever a couple times.

Nope, only one iteration of any given Maneuver can be readied at any given time.

Blackfang108
2009-09-08, 12:53 PM
You could also prepare moment of perfect whatever a couple times.

You can only ready a Maneuver once, IIRC. No double instances, unlike a Wizard Readying Haste in every possible spell Slot.

And he mentioned this in the OP.

Myrmex
2009-09-08, 12:53 PM
Nope, only one iteration of any given Maneuver can be readied at any given time.

Is that RAW?

Myrmex
2009-09-10, 02:08 AM
You can only ready a Maneuver once, IIRC. No double instances, unlike a Wizard Readying Haste in every possible spell Slot.

And he mentioned this in the OP.

There's no mention in the OP, and I also can't find any reference in either direction in ToB.

oxinabox
2009-09-10, 02:22 AM
don't know about the other ToB classes, but for Warblade Iron Mind is a Bonus Feat.
Possible one of the best out of there short bonus list,
Iron Mind loks junk until you realise the Wis is the dump for many warblades and they have the poor progression on will.
then Iron Mind looks Amazing!

You could get a Wisdom boosting item. formula is 1000*bonus^2

there is a formula in MiC/DMG for specific save boosting item also.

You could seek to aquire the VoidMind template:
Imunity to all mind affecting effectes.
Decent bonuses to All your attributes
LA +1.

:smallamused:It does have the minor downside that you don't actually have a mind anymore, and yoiu grant 3 Mindfeeders the abitity to cast Dominate Monster/humanoid on you at will.
But thats little price to pay, right?:smallamused:

Myrmex
2009-09-10, 02:29 AM
Voidmind is +3; the +1 in the crystalkeep index is a typo.

Teron
2009-09-10, 02:30 AM
Ok, so I've changed my feats around to get Steadfast Determination (Con is +1 instead of Wis -1), changed my Cloak of Resistance to +2, and added a Cat's-Eye Brooch and Lesser Crystal of Mind Cloaking. That gets me up to +8 Will save, +11 vs mind-affecting stuff over my old +4 Will save. I think that will work. Thanks a bunch guys.
Hang on, if it's only making a two point difference, you might as well just take Iron Will and avoid having to take Endurance.

Myrmex
2009-09-10, 02:32 AM
Hang on, if it's only making a two point difference, you might as well just take Iron Will and avoid having to take Endurance.

Con will increase, though, with magic items, and has a better secondary effect (more HP) than boosting wisdom (spot, which scales horribly vs. hide).

Teron
2009-09-10, 02:37 AM
He said it's for a PvP competition, though, so I wasn't sure if he'd gain experience or gear or if it was more of a one-shot. If he will, or he left out a Con booster he already has, than yeah, Steadfast Determination is better.

oxinabox
2009-09-10, 02:41 AM
Shock a typo!

You can hav eboth Iron will and steadfeat determination, right?
Iron will is a Feat type Bonus (IURC)
and Stead fast determination is a stat swap?

Myrmex
2009-09-10, 02:46 AM
He said it's for a PvP competition, though, so I wasn't sure if he'd gain experience or gear or if it was more of a one-shot. If he will, or he left out a Con booster he already has, than yeah, Steadfast Determination is better.

Oh yeah, good call & good catch. The other benefit of Steadfast Determination is not failing fort saves on a natural one, if you would have otherwise passed.

Teron
2009-09-10, 02:58 AM
Indeed, but that's not enough to justify spending an extra feat, especially in a PvP context where save DCs will probably be too high for that to matter. So it's a question of whether he can look forward to a better Will boost from SD -- a +3 or higher Con mod whould probably justify it, but the exact number depends on how much his build values feats, which he hasn't mentioned at all.

Eldariel
2009-09-10, 03:12 AM
Iron Will > Cumbrous Will [Savage Species] would do it. It has a drawback, but if you really need to make that Will-save, getting +6 to it is some good. Iron Will is a prerequisite in case you're wondering. +8 to Will-saves total.

Deepblue706
2009-09-10, 03:37 AM
See if your DM will give you the opportunity to seek out custom magic items.

Resistance bonus to saves is bonus squared x 1,000.

A Luck or Sacred bonus to saves is the bonus squared x 2,000.

Amulets and Cloaks have affinity for protection, but you can only wear one of each, so if you want all three bonuses you'll have to pay 50% for one of them, if your DM does use body-slot affinities.

You could get a Cloak of Resistance +3 (9,000), an "Amulet of Luck +1" (2,000) and a "Ring of Sacred Protection +1" (4,000).

Or you could pay the +50% for the lower-priced item added to something that already has magic (putting both the Sacred onto the Cloak, for instance).

Either way, that's a +5 to all saves for 15,000 gp.

Saph
2009-09-10, 05:53 AM
An interesting trick if you really, really need to make the Will save and don't need to worry about anything else is to combo Moment of Perfect Mind with Adaptive Style.

Enemy turn: Throws Will-save at you. You use Moment of Perfect Mind.
Your turn: Use Adaptive Style. Re-ready Moment of Perfect Mind.
Enemy turn: Throws Will-save at you. You use Moment of Perfect Mind.

Since Moment of Perfect Mind's an immediate action, and Adaptive Style's a full-round action, you can keep cycling them.

It does, of course, have the minor problem that you can't do anything else. But if your only concern is holding someone off, it works pretty well.

Myou
2009-09-10, 05:58 AM
An interesting trick if you really, really need to make the Will save and don't need to worry about anything else is to combo Moment of Perfect Mind with Adaptive Style.

Enemy turn: Throws Will-save at you. You use Moment of Perfect Mind.
Your turn: Use Adaptive Style. Re-ready Moment of Perfect Mind.
Enemy turn: Throws Will-save at you. You use Moment of Perfect Mind.

Since Moment of Perfect Mind's an immediate action, and Adaptive Style's a full-round action, you can keep cycling them.

It does, of course, have the minor problem that you can't do anything else. But if your only concern is holding someone off, it works pretty well.

Unless they have Quicken spell. D:

Saph
2009-09-10, 06:24 AM
Unless they have Quicken spell. D:

The solution to that is to try and make sure you're playing at a low enough level that they can't effectively use it. :P

Keewatin
2009-09-10, 06:27 AM
The protection from evil spell (or good or low or chaos) will will give you a +2 on saves vs a creature or spell that is evil, it also suppresses any form of mind control and possession for the duration.

1st level spell so you can get in made into an item pretty easy, hell if you want to throw money at it you can get an item with all 4 types and be protected no matter what :D

The suppression of mind control works no matter what alignment is doing it.

sofawall
2009-09-10, 06:55 AM
I'll look into Steadfast Determination. I doubt the special location will fly since this is for a PvP competition with some very strict rules. Any other suggestions?

Where have I seen one of them, before :P

oxinabox
2009-09-10, 07:45 AM
The protection from evil spell (or good or low or chaos) will will give you a +2 on saves vs a creature or spell that is evil, it also suppresses any form of mind control and possession for the duration.

1st level spell so you can get in made into an item pretty easy, hell if you want to throw money at it you can get an item with all 4 types and be protected no matter what :D

The suppression of mind control works no matter what alignment is doing it.
unless True neutral

Cieyrin
2009-09-10, 01:39 PM
unless True neutral

You only really need one if all you're going for is the 'block mind control' bit. The save bonus is a resistance bonus, which he probably will have a cloak with equal or better bonus on, anyways. This isn't Pathfinder, where the mind control negation becomes alignment-dependent, as well.

Starbuck_II
2009-09-10, 02:32 PM
The protection from evil spell (or good or low or chaos) will will give you a +2 on saves vs a creature or spell that is evil, it also suppresses any form of mind control and possession for the duration.

1st level spell so you can get in made into an item pretty easy, hell if you want to throw money at it you can get an item with all 4 types and be protected no matter what :D

The suppression of mind control works no matter what alignment is doing it.

Can't he just buy 1/day item of Disobedienance: lasts 1hr/level. Just have it caster 8 and it lasts all combat day.
(assume wake up at 8, bathe/breakfast/dress 2 hours, adventure 8 hours, 6 hours free time, and cycle repeats: sleep 8, etc).

Thurbane
2009-09-10, 09:23 PM
Scorpion's Resolve (Snd) gets a +4 bonus to save vs. mind-affecting.

Indomitable Will (PHB II) allows 2 saves vs. mind-affecting and fear, but needs Endurance and Iron Will as requisites.

ericgrau
2009-09-10, 09:30 PM
You can dip into some good combat yet high will save prestiges for some quick +2's. Dwarven defender and dragon disciple are a couple examples. Even if you only take them for the stats.

Thurbane
2009-09-10, 09:40 PM
You can dip into some good combat yet high will save prestiges for some quick +2's. Dwarven defender and dragon disciple are a couple examples. Even if you only take them for the stats.
...or even a dip of Knight.

warrl
2009-09-14, 05:50 PM
...or even a dip of Knight.

Is that what the dragons have with potato chips?

Another_Poet
2009-09-14, 10:57 PM
1st level spell so you can get in made into an item pretty easy, hell if you want to throw money at it you can get an item with all 4 types and be protected no matter what :D


Unless his opponent is True Neutral :)

edit: ninja'd

Pharaoh's Fist
2009-09-14, 10:59 PM
Resolute ACF from C Champ.

Sstoopidtallkid
2009-09-14, 11:02 PM
Unless his opponent is True Neutral :)

edit: ninja'dThe ninja post was 4 days, 15 hours, and 12 minutes ago. Did the 2 sentences really take that long?

Thurbane
2009-09-21, 03:58 AM
I just stumbled across a feat in Elder Evils - Deformity (Madness). You have to be evil, it has a requisite feat of Willing Deformity, and it inflicts a -4 penalty to your Wisdom, but it renders you immune to all mind affecting spells and abilities. Also, once every minute as an immediate action, you can add 1/2 your character level to a Will save.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-21, 04:26 AM
I'ma echo Steadfast Determination.

Much better than Iron Will, because of the following:

1) Two saves and HP are tied to one stat. All three are good for PvP. Now, a Item of Con +6 gets you +3 HP per level, +3 Fort saves, and +3 Will saves.

Alternately, I believe there are abilities that let you roll a reflex save instead of a will save. If you can do that, follow up with Action before Thought.

If you can Swing it, a Cloak of Resistance (as high as you can get). +5 is only 25,000, cheap as items go, and benefits all saves.

With Steadfast Determination and those two items, you're looking at an overall +10 to your current will save, assuming you were Wisdom 8 before, and Con 12.

(-1 mod to +1 mod = +2)
(+1 mod to +4 mod = +3)
(Resistance bonus = +5)

If you're a little strapped for cash, save 20,000 gp by lowering it to an item of Con +4.

Eldariel
2009-09-21, 05:31 AM
I'ma echo Steadfast Determination.

Much better than Iron Will, because of the following:

1) Two saves and HP are tied to one stat. All three are good for PvP. Now, a Item of Con +6 gets you +3 HP per level, +3 Fort saves, and +3 Will saves.

Alternately, I believe there are abilities that let you roll a reflex save instead of a will save. If you can do that, follow up with Action before Thought.

If you can Swing it, a Cloak of Resistance (as high as you can get). +5 is only 25,000, cheap as items go, and benefits all saves.

With Steadfast Determination and those two items, you're looking at an overall +10 to your current will save, assuming you were Wisdom 8 before, and Con 12.

(-1 mod to +1 mod = +2)
(+1 mod to +4 mod = +3)
(Resistance bonus = +5)

If you're a little strapped for cash, save 20,000 gp by lowering it to an item of Con +4.

and 10k for Crystal Mask of Mind Armor; if that save specifically needs help, I'd rather go with a +4 Cloak and the Crystal Mask for +8 Will and +4 to other saves.

PhoenixRivers
2009-09-21, 05:35 AM
and 10k for Crystal Mask of Mind Armor; if that save specifically needs help, I'd rather go with a +4 Cloak and the Crystal Mask for +8 Will and +4 to other saves.

Good point.

Iron Will/Steadfast determination (either or) + those two would equal 30k gold, and +10 Will, +4 everything else.

I'd still go Steadfast Determination, for the not autofailing fort saves on a 1 part.

Heck, with that, if ya didn't mind 46k gold spend, a Con item +4 would boost it to
+12 increase Will
+6 increase Fort
+4 increase Reflex

ericgrau
2009-09-21, 09:27 AM
Elves and half-elves get +2 to saves vs. enchantments. A potion of protection from evil will make you immune to charm, domination, suggestion, anything that exercises mental control. But not fear, confusion, etc. Its save bonus does not stack with a cloak of resistance and only applies against evil creatures anyway, however. A potion of heroism lasts a long time and grants a +2 morale bonus to saves, which is good b/c morale stacks with most other things. For that matter mixing sources is a good idea. For example a periapt of wisdom +2 is cheaper than boosting a cloak of resistance from +2 to +3. It's also cheaper than a cats-eye brooch.

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-21, 10:19 AM
An interesting trick if you really, really need to make the Will save and don't need to worry about anything else is to combo Moment of Perfect Mind with Adaptive Style.

Enemy turn: Throws Will-save at you. You use Moment of Perfect Mind.
Your turn: Use Adaptive Style. Re-ready Moment of Perfect Mind.
Enemy turn: Throws Will-save at you. You use Moment of Perfect Mind.

Since Moment of Perfect Mind's an immediate action, and Adaptive Style's a full-round action, you can keep cycling them.

It does, of course, have the minor problem that you can't do anything else. But if your only concern is holding someone off, it works pretty well.

Doesn't work. Adaptive Style works 1/encounter, not at will. A Swordsage could do it, but they have good Will saves anyway.

Eldariel
2009-09-21, 11:04 AM
Doesn't work. Adaptive Style works 1/encounter, not at will. A Swordsage could do it, but they have good Will saves anyway.

Huh? "You can change your readied maneuvers at any time by taking a full-round action. Bla Bla Bla Crusader." I don't see any such limitation in the feat.

Paulus
2009-09-21, 02:38 PM
Goodness. Exactly how much will save do you need?
Is there a ballpark? What would be your best number to aim for?

Personally I'm thinking an item which casts mindblank 1/day works wonders. Since it lasts all day anyway...

Sinfire Titan
2009-09-21, 02:47 PM
Huh? "You can change your readied maneuvers at any time by taking a full-round action. Bla Bla Bla Crusader." I don't see any such limitation in the feat.

Why do I always see that restriction? Ok, I'm wrong.

Person_Man
2009-09-21, 02:51 PM
Try the new X to Y thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732).

Thurbane
2009-09-21, 04:31 PM
If the character can be evil, and doesn't need a good Wis score, then Deformity (Madness) is hard to beat...